F*cking Heartless...

[Vampiric Angel]

If you love cats or dogs, you need to watch this...Force yourself if need be. This needs to fucking stop. I was brought to tears watching this..honestly.

WARNING: Contains graphic images of animal abuse. Not for the faint of heart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG0YrDMeVvI

Next time you see a fur coat, burn it. Next you see someone wearing a fur coat...punch them in the face...

[Doomsday]

wow, i couldn't watch much of that. Everyone I know, knows that fur is murder.

[Lucien]

Next time you see a fur coat, burn it. Next you see someone wearing a fur coat...punch them in the face... Then murder them. Then rape their families.

Really, I hope that is hyperbole because it's pretty stupid a statement otherwise. How does violence stop this? This is a market: Companies go into poor countries to higher cheap labor from a workforce of an unemployed and uneducated underclass. Hitting people is only going to get someone arrested. Screaming "FUR IS MURDER!" will make people think you're a liberal whack-job.

Instead, spread this video around, and maybe something a little less intense for the faint of heart and younger people. Someone in fur will think twice about going back to the market.

Consumers have massive power over the market. All it takes is uniting in a single cause.

[Saxon]

I watched this to the bitter end. Let me say first and foremost that I was outright disgusted by this video. Don't get me wrong, I despise PETA and other hypocritical animal rights' organizations that feel the need to take the law into their own hands. But this was sick. I'm particularly apathetic to the fur and meat trade as long as they abide by one simple rule:

You put down the animals humanely FIRST before you have your way with them.

I can't express how deeply sad this video made me, and I would hope that a lot of these companies who do this sort of thing would wisen up and learn some common decency. But, international business is a slippery slope, and just because we can and do police the rights for animals to be treated humanely in situations like these, doesn't mean we can force it onto other countries. The last 30 seconds of the video made me cringe in a way that I have never before and it'll be a very, very long time before I look at a greyhound the same way again. So, if you want this sort of thing to stop happening, perhaps it would be best to find a way to lobby this video to Congress or petition to your state congressmen. Perhaps it won't do much, but I hope I'm wrong on this one and our legislature will do something about this. If theres one thing we can do for our food before we consume it, it would be to put it down humanely.

God damn. *shakes head*

[Godhand]

Next time you see a fur coat, burn it. Next you see someone wearing a fur coat...punch them in the face...

Assuming you're the vegan bookpussy I believe most of you shocked by this are, you're going to have a Hell of a time hurting anyone with your pale, meatless, prepubescent fists.

[Slayer of the Rot]

Okay.

That was fucking gross, and if I catch anyone else posting this shit, I'm going to skin you and sell the pelt to the Bazaar.

But seriously, people need to stop resorting to shock tactics. This didn't incite strong, angry feelings of any kind in me; it just made me a little nauseous, and if someone asshole hadn't put this fucking thing together, I'd still be feeling fine. I'm in between, as far as it goes; I do not give a shit if a person is having a walk in the park witrh their beloved dog or wearing a fresh fur coat.

The thing you have to begin to understand is that American culture accepts animals as though they were another part of the family unit; speaking to them in baby talk, calling themselves "mommy" or "daddy". We are a culture that has no problem watching some of the most violent of horror or action movies, but rally up and start screaming for blood over something like this just because it's real. The thing is, for the most part, Americans live a pretty fucking cushy life; people have managed to afford to buy useless gadgets like the Iphone, or a new video game console they don't really need. Even those of you not so very well off, don't you come home to some sort of food and a fairly warm bed?

Well, cultures in the rest of the world just do shit differently. I do believe the part where the man guts and skins the German Shepherd is Russia, and if you have taken some sort of Geography course and you are not retarded, you know these people are poor.

And when you're poor, you eat whatever you can to survive.

Now, later, he was laying out the dog's skin to sell. Well...he's poor. He needs to sell something because honestly; do you want to see an animal die, or a man starve to death? Outrage erupts at the slightest sign of animal cruelty but hey, massacres in third world countries? What the fuck is that?

The point is it's nasty, repulsive, disgusting, but hey, shit happens. What are you going to do to make these foreign people treat animals right, invade them?

And while we're at it, we might as well get rid of all our insect and rodent poisons and we'd better stop the hunters every season or they're going to harm another innocent life! And hey, no leather jackets for you folks! Girls who think guys look hot in leather pants, you make me sick, because just think of how that cow suffered! And if you're eating meat, well, you're just the worst god damn person in the world.

The morale of the story is there's nothing you can do about it because you never did anything about it before. Just grind your teeth and bear with it because the world's a pretty rotten place and none of you little crusaders are going to make much of an impact.

[Serilliant]

It's sad, yes. But it's a 6:30 minute video (actually more like 5:00 minutes given the minute and a half of dead space at the end (and actually, more like 2:00 minutes given the 3:00 minutes of cute doggies and kitties playing)) of bad stuff. I'm guessing if you look at any industry, it's easy to pull out two minutes of evil footage. Heck, I'm betting you could even splice together shots of pets mauling children and families at funerals to send an equally poignant counterpoint. Would the message then be, "stop the ownership of pets and start slaughtering animals!"? Shock-value propaganda is an irresponsible tactic, equally so as when abortion protesters picket with signs of dismembered fetuses.

If you're against inhumane treatment of animals, fine. Good. I am too. But I recognize that the solution is not violence and property damage against owners of animal-product clothing. Ultimately, you are just trying to combat unreasonable action with more unreasonable action. And to advocate such a course of conduct is reckless and does nothing to right any sort of injustice.

Go to the source and fight for international enforcement. Street thuggery will get you nowhere aside from in front of a judge's bench.

[Cyrus the virus]

You present a problem and don't bother to suggest a solution. Anyone can find a video on youtube and post it, crying outrage.

If I was going to spend any time complaining about inhumane treatment, it'd be about something that effects humans. You know, people dying on North American streets, that sort of thing.

[Elijah_Morendale]

<bandwagon jump="on">

Animal cruelty is wrong, especially on those cute fuzzy things that people post with captions that have butchered spelling and grammar.

But there are tons of other problems facing the world today that are more important. We have domestic violence, a pitiful health care system, two thirds of the world hates our guts, we're fighting a war for no particular good reason whatsoever, we're paying three and a half bucks a gallon so we can pollute the air going two blocks to the store for a gallon of milk, a Playboy, and a pack of cigarettes, we have crunk rap playing on our radios constantly, our national debt is closing in on ten trillion dollars and shows no sign of slowing down, we're heading for another economic recession, people are more concerned about buying their kids a Wii for Christmas than anything else, our educational system is a load of shit, and then there's a bit of a problem with the ozone layer.

That's just the ones I could think of off the top of my head.

[Empyrean]

As much as I am a sucker for cute fluffy things, I think Lucien, Slayer, Serilliant and everyone of the same opinion said it best.

Animal cruelty is horrible, but at best it's a minor, trifling worry in a world of far more significant concerns.

[Herald]

I like how "crunk rap" is a problem worthy of mention alongside such things as our national debt, the war, and that "bit of a problem with the ozone layer."

Y'need to get your priorities straight, mate.

Oh, right, killing animals and such. Ever seen a pride of lions tear apart a gazelle, ripping out the guts while it's still struggling to escape?

[Godhand]

Some more animal cruelty:

Oh the humanity! (http://jj.am/gallery/v/GIFs/CatWasher.gif.html)

WARNING: THIS SHIT IS HIGHLY GRAPHIC!!!

[Lucien]

It's a conspiracy. (http://www.yikers.com/video_bear_cubs_box_each_other_with_full_gear.html )

EDIT: Blue won.

[Atzar]

It's a conspiracy. (http://www.yikers.com/video_bear_cubs_box_each_other_with_full_gear.html )

EDIT: Blue won.

This was amazing. I was laughing my ass off.

[Godhand]

Bullshit, okay? Bullshit. Red won. Pause at eighteen seconds and you can see the referee gripping Blue's shoulder so he doesn't get knocked out of the mat.

[Elijah_Morendale]

Here, Herald. This might help you see why I put crunk rap on my list of problems. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/joke)

And that bear video was awesome.

[Lucien]

I actually want to say some more things.

First and foremost, BLUE FUCKING WON THE MATCH GODHAND. Get over it. Stop calling shanaigans on Blue's corner just 'cause Red went crying home to his mommy.

Now that the fun's out of the way, let me be a tad more serious.

Herald, animals eat and tear each other to shreds, yes. Good god, you're a genius. Really though, no. Comparing hunting to the scenes in that video are like comparing apples and dickweasles because it makes about as much sense as one of my made up words. Animals do hunt, yes. Animals do inflict massive pain and damage on other animals, yes. Animals lock up their prey (massive amounts mind you) in little cages, no. Animals dip their prey into boiling vats of water? Nope. See, there's a pretty big difference. Hunting a creature naturally only yeilds an average result of 1/10 successful hunts. The prey has a 9/10 chance to escape.

Animals don't escape from that crazy shit. It's a massive, industrialized butcher factory, and there is something wrong with it.

I'm also going to say that people should stop with the, "there are other more pressing issues in the world!" Guess what? That's terribly subjective. I tend to like animals more than I think third world countries. I also tend to put gay rights over animals, so I think a more pressing issue would be how many nations have homosexuality as a capital offense. Some other person might think that abortion is far more pressing, as we're killing those unborn babies like 'em savage chinamen in the video!

Are there more pressing matters? Yeah, sure. Iraq, Darfur, there seems to be genocide, war, and terrorism everywhere that needs to be stopped. But to say, "we need to focus our attention there first!" is pretty small a notion. We don't need to focus all of our resources on one task. Stopping fur is as easy as I outlined in my first post.

You think fur is murder? Stop buying fur, spread the video and other information, use your propaganda machine for good. You want to stop a genocide? Write your congressman, hold a rally, and donate money. Aid Katrina victims with red cross volunteer work. Lets not become callus to one issue because we believe another exists. Another will always exist, but it's not hard to fight a war on two fronts when they have different tactics and we have the general resources.

I firmly agree with slayer when he talks about the lives of the people in those third world countries, and I'm going to take it a step further by mentioning that the butcher in that video was not all bad. Pet overpopulation can get to be a huge problem in those countries were reproductive control isn't readily available or affordable. I think these people see a resource they can tap into for a source of cheap food, and easy money. Should they kill the animals more humanely? Yeah, I think so. But I'm not going to start boycotting all fur myself just because of the images in this video, which leads to my next point.

Serilliant's too fucking smart. This video is propaganda. I knew that even before I watched the damn thing. Even though it tugged at my heart like some needy child you see in those dammed comercials, I know that a lot of the more industrialized and regulated fur trade uses humane methods to kill animals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZiRiIpZVF4

See? Subtle. You see a nazi, you punch them in the face. Also, love being an American, because all the Germans were forced to dance and sing and make bomb shells in front of paintings. Never heard that on the history channel? That's cause it's nazi propaganda.

Finally, I want to bring up this important point again.

BLUE FUCKING WON. He's gunna' be a contender for the heavy weights soon.

EDIT: I can not stress this enough.

Do not attack someone in the street because they wear fur. Do not yell at someone because they wear fur. Let me tell you a little, made up story.

There's a young girl who comes from less than humble roots. She grew up in the slums her entire life, lived in a home that never loved her, and was abused by every man she ever knew. She finally meets a man that treats her right, and the first thing he buys her is a beautiful fur coat. She feels perfect, and, for once in her life, loved. She goes out into the street to go to a friends and show off this thing she loves so much, and out of the blue, Vampiric Angel appears.

He knocks her down with a punch to the face, rips the coat off, sets fire to it, and throws red paint on her.

Who's the asshole now? It sure ain't the fucking girl.

Is this story true? Could be. Is it a scare tactic from me? Yeah, most likely. But if it stops people from attacking fur wearers in the street, then I think it serves a greater good.

[Vampiric Angel]

Obviously, most of you misunderstood my reason for posting this. I'm not trying to get people to attack fur-wearers on the streets, that was an exaggeration, an outlet for the hatred I feel against people that support such a cruel act. Because as I've found out, most of the people that wear fur, know what's being done to get it, and they just don't care..

I was posting this to bring an awareness to the problem. The number of people that are ignorant to this type of abuse is saddening. I was trying to get a few more people to see just how bad it is. And yes, I know there's "more pressing matters at hand." If I had read something about the war in Iraq or how the economy is plummeting or the sales of crunk rap are at an all-time high, and was truly appalled or thought more needed to know, I would've posted it. Don't think just because this is the only serious thread I've posted, that it means I think it's the only serious problem.

And Godhand...I'd like to meet you in real life...

[Lucien]

Next time you see a fur coat, burn it. Next you see someone wearing a fur coat...punch them in the face...

Exaggeration though this may be, it is also a call to violence. Freedom of Speech doesn't protect statements likes this.

You may have felt outraged, but I notice not a single word in your first paragraph blames the workers doing this, the countries allowing this, or the companies who endorse this labor to make cheap fur coats.

You blame the consumer, who, while incredibly powerful, is also well known to be ignorant to how the hamburger is made, so to speak. I'm not sure how many people with fur coats and other fur outfits you talk to, but I doubt you talked to the majority of them.

Not all fur production is like this. This may, in fact, be a small minority of fur production that just has incredibly violent methods of assembly. This video shouldn't be used as an argument against fur, which it obviously is. PETA should be going after the companies that allow their workers to torment the animals before, and during, death.

Fur is murder.

And sometimes, murder looks really good with the right pair of boots

[Cyrus the virus]

an outlet for the hatred I feel against people that support such a cruel act.

If you hate people for wearing fur, nobody needs to value your opinion anyway.

[Herald]

Here, Elijah, this might help you see why it didn't come across as such. (http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/failure.jpg)

And Lucien, thanks for recognizing my genius, but I'm going to have to ask you to not join any debate teams. Basically, the animals end up dead. Do you really think sentimentality is going to make anyone want to change their business practices? Unless there's a good reason related to the quality of the product, dipping animals into boiling water is not only cruel, but it's probably not cost effective. It's excessive and unnecessary. The argument here is really the method of killing, and it would be more efficient to simply line them up in front of a guillotine. Just ask the French. More animals could be slaughtered, so more fur could be sold, and more profits could be made. To think that a few presumably middle-class consumers boycotting a product most of them either probably weren't interested in to begin with, or in my own case, simply couldn't afford even if they did want it, is going to stop an entire industry, I recommend taking business classes. The people who want to buy fur aren't going to stop because you don't like it. The industry isn't going to stop because you don't like it. The methods are probably not going to stop either, and the fact that there are far more pressing issues to worry about remains valid. :)

[Lucien]

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize your were both genius and psychic, because I don't remember using the word middle class anywhere.

In fact, I didn't say few either.

I said spread the message around. I said it'd be easier to stop this if everyone stopped buying fur. I don't believe I said anything about it being easy to convince these people. Maybe if they're on the fence, but not if they're convinced buying fur is just fine.

So please, use your abilities to predict the winning lottery numbers for me instead, kay?

[Typheus]

Heh, when I read the title, I thought some asshole was trying to bring Kingdom Hearts plots into Althanas :P

Also, debating about something like this is a bit senseless, isn't it? I mean all it's gonna do is cause a big fight that will eventually result in getting everyone pissed at each other and get everyone no where. I mean, hell, wouldn't it be easier, and more efficient, to just mail your state senator and ask him to throw something up in Congress?

Guys, I don't mean to sound like a lazy slob who doesn't care what happens to the world (actually getting to the point where I don't, sadly), but I really think you all need to cool it, because unless you all are screwing around, I think you all are about to become enemies if only for the time being. :p

[Herald]

Lucien: I'm too lazy to go cleverly find the definition to "presumably" and link it here, but you might want to look into that. I highly doubt you have Donald Trump's ear to voice these complaints into. Yes, I added that on my own, you never said it, congratulations. It simply helps demonstrate my point in an economic context.

And no, you didn't say "few," but that's who you're reaching unless you have a better way to spread your message. You're talking to a "few" people right now...the population of Althanas isn't a major voting demographic, last time I checked. Neither are the "few" other people you might have told. My point is that "everyone" is not going to stop buying fur, like you're suggesting.

Typheus: While I agree that this particular conversation is pointless, healthy debate is generally a good thing. I personally wouldn't bother writing to Congress about anything, because I have no faith in American politics and/or their ability to accomplish anything. As far as I'm concerned, they're all worthless power-mongers, more focused on their own careers than making a difference, and I don't have time to waste on them.

Oh, and the winning pick six, in case you were interested: 3 7 2 6 4 9...Knock yourself out.

[Lucien]

You know Herald, you're absolutely right. There has never been a case were a minority has grown with a strong voice, gathered supporters, and eventually changed the status quo. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_rights_movement#African-Americans_against_racism_in_the_United_States)

And it's not like celebrities are endorsing (http://www.helpinganimals.com/f-dita-von-teese.asp) this kind (http://www.peta.org/feat/alicia_psa/index.asp) of (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4246648a1860.html) thing. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4241198a5620.html)

Yay for defeatism, pessimism, and apathy. What bad things have they (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust) ever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur_conflict) caused (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare)?

[Atzar]

As far as I'm concerned, they're all worthless power-mongers, more focused on their own careers than making a difference, and I don't have time to waste on them.


And it's that defeatist, glass-half-empty approach that makes problems infinitely harder to solve.

"I don't have time to waste making an effort when the people with the weight to make change happen don't give a shit."

"Next time you see a guy wearing a fur coat, punch him in the face."

Do you see why many of us aren't taking this seriously? You complain about it, but when the suggestion of acting comes up, you back off under the excuse that it won't make a difference. Maybe, maybe not, but I guarantee sitting on your ass makes even less of a difference.

Frankly, I don't see a problem with wearing fur. I wouldn't wear it personally, but I look at it this way: it doesn't erase the deed. If the consumer waxes humanitarian in front of the coat rack and says "you know, this is just wrong, I shouldn't buy this," it doesn't change the fact that the animal died. Instead of being on the guys back, the fur will sit on the rack and collect dust. In other words, the people that buy the fur later aren't the ones that are killing the animals.

Don't whack the guys that buy it. Target the people that do it.

[Herald]

Yes, because animal rights is anywhere near the importance and magnitude of civil rights.

While Steve-O might be rich, I don't think anyone is going to call him upper-class or part of the aristocracy.

You have a penchant for utterly unrelated links. Please see the one I left for Elijah earlier. Logic seems to escape you in regards to this argument, so I'm pretty much done here. I'll be at a diner, endorsing the heartless murder of bovines for my burger.

EDIT: For Atzar - I stand by my defeatist, apathetic, pessimistic approach, and continue to maintain we have bigger problems to concern ourselves with. My solution is to move out of the country upon the coronation of the next Queen Clinton.

[Lucien]

Yes, because animal rights is anywhere near the importance and magnitude of civil rights. I never said that. I never inferred that. And I believe the only reason you're bringing this up is because you can't counter my point. Don't hide behind a veil of sarcasm and bring up importance (which I already mentioned was subjective) of an issue because you're wrong.



While Steve-O might be rich, I don't think anyone is going to call him upper-class or part of the aristocracy. And the other three? Countless other celebrities for liberal causes? Steve-O, even if he's not looked up to by you (center of the universe though you may be), is still a role model to some people.


You have a penchant for utterly unrelated links. Please see the one I left for Elijah earlier. Logic seems to escape you in regards to this argument, so I'm pretty much done here. I'll be at a diner, endorsing the heartless murder of bovines for my burger.

That was cruel to people who are actually vegetarians, who fight for this cause, and who may just die for it. Congrats.

[Herald]

Now that I feel like an idiot for letting you pointlessly prattle on, being the center of the universe and all, I feel the need to post one last time.

Importance of this issue, astoundingly, is NOT subjective. Sorry, but if you think the life of an animal is as important as that of a human, you're simply wrong.

The other celebs were also mostly inconsequential. Celebrities for liberal causes, fine...but not this particular cause is growing more and inane and irritating by the moment.

I have unaffected scorn for vegetarians to begin with, and anyone who would choose to die for that, well, I reserve the right to be cruel in my judgment of their wasted efforts. omgz, plants are alive too...beans are babies and that's murder too!

Yeah, I'm completely done here. Enjoy yourself. I need to be at the diner now.

[Atzar]

I have unaffected scorn for vegetarians to begin with, and anyone who would choose to die for that, well, I reserve the right to be cruel in my judgment of their wasted efforts. omgz, plants are alive too...beans are babies and that's murder too!

Yeah, I'm completely done here. Enjoy yourself. I need to be at the diner now.

Lucien's comment about you thinking that you're the center of the universe was right on point. What right do you have to scorn another's beliefs? It's thoughts like that which led to all of the problems that you seem to think are more important. The gay rights movements are a result of that line of thinking... a result of people 'scorning' the way of life of others. The war in the Middle East is, at least in part, a result of religious conflicts. I could also reference Hitler and the Jews, if I wished. Take your pick. There are plenty more corroborating examples out there. In just about every conflict in mankind's history, the attitude that you just displayed was at its root.

Way to go. You've just put together the most arrogant, opinionated, bullshit argument that I've ever seen.

[Lucien]

Now that I feel like an idiot for letting you pointlessly prattle on, being the center of the universe and all, I feel the need to post one last time.

Importance of this issue, astoundingly, is NOT subjective. Sorry, but if you think the life of an animal is as important as that of a human, you're simply wrong.

The other celebs were also mostly inconsequential. Celebrities for liberal causes, fine...but not this particular cause is growing more and inane and irritating by the moment.

I have unaffected scorn for vegetarians to begin with, and anyone who would choose to die for that, well, I reserve the right to be cruel in my judgment of their wasted efforts. omgz, plants are alive too...beans are babies and that's murder too!

Yeah, I'm completely done here. Enjoy yourself. I need to be at the diner now.

Thank you for showing people why the respect for human life is subjective.

[Herald]

Because I'm weak-willed and easily incited by trolling, I have one final post to make. I know I've said that three times now, but I've asked a friend to enforce it this time. She's also enforcing my civility in this post, and it will be edited, if need be, to keep things, erm, nice.

Lucien, you're incredible. Sarcasm is clearly beyond you. I suppose I should call myself "the alleged center of the universe" to avoid further misunderstanding. And for someone who's so adamant about humane treatment of animals, disregarding the sanctity of human life because you take someone to be arrogant is rather amusing. Thanks for the laugh.

Atzar, the right to scorn another's belief is inherent to all humans. "My opinion is that your opinion is bullshit." That's a fair opinion to have, right? I wouldn't have that opinion if I didn't think it was better. I'm not going to feign respect for something I have utter disdain for. I should clarify that I'm not referring to anyone who chooses to be a Vegan or vegetarian for health reasons, or if they simply dislike the taste of meat. I do, however, laugh long and hard at "moral vegetarians." Generally speaking, their efforts are entirely misguided. They seem to be under the false assumption that they will save the lives of animals by lowering the demand for meat. The industry works in such a way that animals are raised from infancy on a ranch, provided with food, shelter, and protection from predators. Then, when they reach maturity, they are slaughtered. Interestingly, because consumers continue to create a demand for the product, the product will always be in constant supply. Do you think cows are ever going to be extinct? No, of course not. The individual animal will suffer at it's death, certainly, but not more than if it had been killed in the wild. The species will prosper because we take care of it. Similarly, they think eating grains is not murder. They fail to consider the animals, the pheasants, rabbits, mice, groundhogs, and other such cute little creatures that get caught in the combines during a harvest, or simply have their homes destroyed. This is all aside from pesticides, which, while strictly regulated, are still in use today.

I don't think vegetarians should be rounded up and killed in concentration camps. I don't even think they should stop being vegetarians, if it makes them happy to deny themselves the pleasure of a nice steak. I think they should, however, stop pretending they're doing the world a favor, and come down off their self-righteous moral high ground. And they should also try not getting their panties all in a bunch when I laugh at them for their misguided choices. I don't get all offended when someone chooses to inform me that my religious beliefs are inferior to their own. I just smile and nod.

I'm not sure if you read your own post before clicking "submit reply," but you didn't even manage to put together an argument. You did manage to jump to ridiculous conclusions. The attitude that I display is not one of ignorant prejudice. Yours, however, is. Actually, I should rephrase that. Lucien's is more ignorant prejudice, yours I think is more of a misinterpretation. You seem to think I was complaining about the issue and care enough to want to change it. I don't, unfortunately. I happen to support gay marriage, by the way, and though I tease my very liberal, very gay friends about it from time to time, they're well aware that I have signed every petition they have given me to sign, despite my pessimist outlook.

In conclusion, I'd like to point out the irony of Lucien finding one of the stars of "Jackass" to be a worthy role model. Something to ponder.

EDIT: In case anyone cares, my friend saw no reason to edit this post.

[Cyrus the virus]

You guys debate like silly bitches, with your snide way of being aggressive. It's typical of Lucien to be sarcastic about things, but this is getting to an all-time low.

Can we relax a bit, here?

[Vincent K]

(This is Typheus BTW!)

I already tried saying this was pointless, but then I was told that "HEALTHY DEBATE" was a good thing. Every time I hear that phrase I think of people arguing over which vegetable to eat.

There isn't anything healthy about arguing over the internet and making enemies on a website where getting along is a major part of its requirements...

...SO! Who wants to play an online shooting game to ease the pain? :D

[AdventWings]

Me! :D

Actually, I'm due for a game of DotA on WCIII. I guess I'll take up your challenge another time, Typheus!

:p

[Atzar]

You guys debate like silly bitches, with your snide way of being aggressive. It's typical of Lucien to be sarcastic about things, but this is getting to an all-time low.

Can we relax a bit, here?

I don't think I was being snide. In fact, I thought I was pretty blunt about it.

I'm not upset, either. I think his attitude towards an issue that has nothing to do with him is wrong, but that's not my problem. Either way, I didn't enter this thread in the beginning because I had a good idea of where it would end up. It seems like I should have stuck to that.

I'm done posting here. I've said enough so that people who read this can make their own conclusions on who's right and who's wrong - any more words on my part aren't likely to make any further difference.

[Vampiric Angel]

To Cyrus:

Why do you always have to fucking nitpick every single word coming from every single person? What does your life suck so much that you have to sit half-naked in front of your computer screen and check every post so you can think of a way to respond to it? Yes, I said "hatred" get the fuck over it.

[Godhand]

And Godhand...I'd like to meet you in real life...

I live in Medellin, Colombia. Carrera 43 C No. 5-151, building El Limonar apartment 304.

Edit: Sometimes I vacation in Miami. Is that any better?

[Vampiric Angel]

Yeah, lemme pull the money out of my ass and I'll be on my way.

[Rayse Valentino]

What the hell is going on in this thread? I just got back from skinning my kitten alive and there's all these people yelling on the internet.

[Serilliant]

While healthy debate is readily encouraged, what this has become is no longer 'debate'. Stop the petty, personal attacks.

[Cyrus the virus]

To Cyrus:

Why do you always have to fucking nitpick every single word coming from every single person? What does your life suck so much that you have to sit half-naked in front of your computer screen and check every post so you can think of a way to respond to it? Yes, I said "hatred" get the fuck over it.

Haha, what? Are you using the patented "you are a loser with no girlfriend or life and no clothing either!" insult? I'll never understand why people think that will accomplish anything except roaring laughter. But no, I was more suggesting we abandon some of the childishness here. You ignored that, apparently.

I think most people can figure out I was talking to the people who had posted directly before me, though. The area of healthy debate was left a while ago, since healthy debate doesn't include snide, sneaky comments meant to bait people or add fuel to the fire. Just discuss the topic and relax. And have some brownies.

[Sighter Tnailog]

I'm going to do Serilliant one better.

The behavior exhibited in this thread, specifically on the part of Herald, has been reprehensible. I am making no pretense of entering this debate on either side, for I have none. But what I do have a side on is common decency.

Herald, this thread was exhibiting a level of fair discourse which, while heated, was maintaining a minimal standard of decency. Your entry into the thread immediately degenerated the thread, and you continued to persist in bringing the tone lower with every post you made.

While it is possible to argue that warnings should be given out beforehand, the extreme nature of the continued attacks on Lucien and others, using a very rude and condescending tone, warrant the giving of a 2-point infraction lasting 1 month. Warnings are not required when we are in the realm of what is and is not basic human decency. In a thread where we're discussing what constitutes proper humanity, I wish we could try being more humane to one another.

I am also leveling an infraction against Vampiric Angel for inappropriate language, and a similar infraction against Godhand. While inappropriate language is used a lot on Althanas, it is rarely used in as powerful a way directed against a single member as I have seen exhibited here.

I'd rather not make a habit of giving out infractions, but I am rarely as disappointed in Althanas as I was when I read this conversation. Don't do it again.

[Whiteshadow]

Wow, a "debate" that I wasn't a part of. I've read this entire thread upside and down, gone back, read it again, and still, I cannot seem to find my car keys.

I've never really taken an interest in this thread. In honesty, I am similar to Herald in that my approach could be called, "apathetic, pessimestic", or something along those lines. However, I am not going to turn my opinion into a flame fest with bullshit flying left and right, so I only have a couple things to say.

I have a question to ask every single person in this thread. What, in your opinion, is the biggest problem that mankind has to deal with? Is it disease? Is it slaughter, hatred, prostitution, homosexuality, apathy, aethism, abuse, abortion? Is it the slowly approaching danger of the ozone layer receding and the sun frying us all or the gravity of the earth suddenly going off balance and us falling into some immense black hole? Or is it the simple lack of action that some of us take and spend more time bickering?

I have a little story to tell. Please, this isn't a cry-me-a-river story, nor do I want or expect any sympathy. But please, hear me out nonetheless.

When I was seven, I would spend alot of my time with my grandparents. I have to say, that at that age, they woul be considered my heroes. The problem was, my grandfather was a minister of a church, and believed in "God" so faithfully that he often tried converting me and the rest of my family, as we were all Christians techinically, over to Catholic. A simple problem with chaos that was the result. His belief, his fanaticism was so great, that he even believed my family was "inferior" to him and grandma.

Myself, I was aethiestic, even at that age. To me, God was just a name, another word in the english language. So, when one day, when my grandfather asked me if I believed in God or not, how else could I respond to my hero but "Of course"?

That, of course, sparked everything else. To make a long story short, my grandfather turned out to be worse of a monster than we could have ever imagined. His fanaticism drove him away from his own wife, and, seeking "sexual reprieve", he turned towards my family. The "inferiors". To this day, he has been convicted of several accounts of child molestation, rape of his own wife, and rape upon minors, and is now serving the rest of his life in jail.

The point of this story is that in my opinion, debating is okay, but not to the point where instead of debates it becomes a full fledged argument that can turn into something much worse. Trying to force your own beliefs on others is the thing that I believe is what mankind's biggest problem is. It won't stop war or bring worldwide peace or happiness, but if everyone respected others in their own opinions then I do believe that it would be much easier to achieve those goals.

The impression I got from this thread is that it started out with innocent intentions, and even though there were some words to start this flame, it wasn't worth it. Really, what did anybody get out of this other than a reprimand and tense feelings?

[Atzar]

I felt better having explained my point of view to those that cared to read it. That's what I got out of it. Those that kept their tempers and harsh words in check would probably say the same thing.

Mankind's biggest problem is mankind itself. Whether its pollution, ozone depletion, global warming, deforestation, the war in the Middle East, a nuclear standoff, abuse of people based on race or gender or something else, abuse of animals, or whatever else you can come up with... it is caused, wholly and with no exception, by us.

[Godhand]

I am also leveling an infraction against Vampiric Angel for inappropriate language, and a similar infraction against Godhand. While inappropriate language is used a lot on Althanas, it is rarely used in as powerful a way directed against a single member as I have seen exhibited here.

IT IS LIKE I AM SHOUTING INSIDE YOUR HEAD!

POWER!!!

[Serilliant]

What count have been an interesting topic of discussion quickly degenerated into insults, personal attacks, and nonsense. Unfortunately, I do not see any redemption for this thread in the future, so I am going to lock it before any more irrelevant nonsense (see above) clutters it further.

Anyone interested in continuing the discussion or debate of animal rights -- hopefully in a more mature fashion next time -- is more than welcome to create a new thread.