How long should judgings take?

[Call me J]

Basically, I want to know what the players feel is a reasonable amount of time for judgings to take. Clearly, if asked how long by itself, the answer would be almost immediately, but I want to know, given that you're dealing with a site made up of volunteers, how long do you think you're justified in waiting before it has been "too long."

My personal feeling is that while the ideal is 3 days, no thread should have to wait more than a week. It is very hard to maintain a standard like this given what we have to work with on Althanas, but I feel we should at least endeavor towards it.

Also, a note- Since I didn't know if people would be worried about negative repercussions, I've made this poll anonymous. I trust that people will not take advantage of this by voting with multiple accounts.

[Cyrus the virus]

One to three weeks seems the most plausible to me. Of course, judging a thread is not often my highest priority of the day, especially because people just don't appreciate it. I get a lot more flack for one negative comment in a judging than I do for the 19 positive ones.

This might turn into my thread to gripe in!

[HikariAngel]

As a judge off-site, I know that immediate responses to judgment requests are a thing of dreams and fiction. That said, I do believe that three days to a week is a reasonable length of time.

[Edward Judorne]

I took this poll from a different angle. I know, that unlike me, the judges all have lives, so I could understand if judging took a month or more. What I voted on instead was how long it should take for judges to claim a thread. 3 days to a week.

[Caden Law]

One to two weeks is what I voted. I'm sure there's usually a backlog and Judges have lives and RPs of their own to worry about.

[Doomsday]

I think a couple of days is fine but 1 week tops. If judging takes too long it slows down character development too much and can ruin things and also harsh judgings are easier to take when they're prompt. A harsh judging that isn't prompt hurts more than it should because I'm not prepared for it. Simply put judgings just can't take too long for the sake of the community and Althanas' writers.

[Demon Song]

Depends on the quality of the judging. If I get a one line judging that took three weeks, I would be pissed. In fact, I asked for my last one to be redone because of that.

[Karuka]

Well, it depends a lot on the quality and length of a thread. A 60 post monster is going to take a lot longer to read and judge, on average, than an itty-bitty 15 poster. People who do long threads also tend to want some decent commentary on them, because they've worked hard, and that takes longer for the judge to write down and phrase.

Calculate into that that most of our judges have schoolwork being crammed down their throats and friends they want to see more than once in a blue moon...a week or less for short threads, with up to three for long.

But as for how people feel...I'm going to take this a different tack than Doomsday. I don't think it really matters how I feel when I get a judgment, because fast or slow, from whomever took it up, doesn't really matter. It doesn't change the score, and the score would be very close if someone else had taken it instead. So if I feel disappointed with it or happy with it is irrelevant, I've got my EXP or whatnot and I can do better the next time.

So I'd want the judge to be at least in a mellow, "life's cool," sort of mood, if not even a good mood. At least that way, he/she can sit down and look at my stuff without other stuff weighing down on him/her. If the judge is feeling too stressed out/in a bad mood, I'd rather he/she take a little more time on it so that my thread comes to that judge with a clear mind.

That said, if you know your judge has had free time that he/she hasn't spent doing other things and it's taken more than a week and a half, some mild poking may be in order.

And just a note: even getting a one-line PM that says "thank you" after getting a judgment can really help a judge feel better about judging you, and they'll be happier to judge you in the future. It IS a volunteer outfit, after all.

[Sighter Tnailog]

I think, too, that if people want quicker judgments they should really keep in mind the length of their threads. Judging can be really rough on a judge, particularly one with lots on their plate -- and to be honest, I simply do not know how Shyam does it, with all he has to do, because judging takes something out of me.

I think part of the problem, too, is the amount of flack we judges get for saying negative things. Even if you don't say it to us directly, words gets around some way or another -- you say something to one person, who jokes about it to a friend, who happens to mention it to their friend, who coincidentally is also friends with the judge, and bingo, word gets out. Judges often spend a TON of time trying to soften the hard words they have to say in a thread precisely because they know that players will start telling horror stories to one another about what a hardass this person is and what a blowhard that guy is, or pick them, they're easy and will inflate your score.

So part of the problem in speed, I'd say, is simply people being grumpy about the score itself. Sometimes it might be justified, but most of the time I really wish people would just take their failures and their successes with good grace and not blame everything on the judge. And that's my two cents regarding one of the reasons why judging speed is sometimes affected. Take it as you will.

[Godhand]

One to three weeks seems the most plausible to me. Of course, judging a thread is not often my highest priority of the day, especially because people just don't appreciate it. I get a lot more flack for one negative comment in a judging than I do for the 19 positive ones.

This might turn into my thread to gripe in!

Three weeks? Jesus Christ. That's not even...That's not work. That's you being an asshole!

Edit: I've been re-reading that stuff about moderators pouring sugar over every judging they make and I think that shit needs to stop right now. When you're doing it on someone's, I don't know, something like someone's second thread and it's obvious they had never done creative writing before Althanas then it's slightly more palatable. But when you're soft-soaping some guy who's been here six months and hasn't improved then you have a problem.

Edit part two: As I was reading over Sighter's "leave Britney alone!" comments I once more felt the need to interject. Bitching about a judging is probably the most fun you can get ouf a low score. I don't do this anymore because at this point I know I'm the best. That's right, the best. But something like three years ago when some guy basically ran you down (in the sweetest most considerate-of-your-feelings way in the world, mind you) there was nothing like going around on AIM telling people that you heard he fucked his sister or something like that. Just the best feeling.

[Call me J]

One to two weeks is what I voted. I'm sure there's usually a backlog and Judges have lives and RPs of their own to worry about.

I disagree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. While judges being volunteers suggests they should have some slack, it also suggests that because they have taken on this responsibility, they should make sure to see it through. There are many times I don't really feel like judging, but I do it because I made a commitment to this forum.


I think a couple of days is fine but 1 week tops. If judging takes too long it slows down character development too much and can ruin things and also harsh judgings are easier to take when they're prompt. A harsh judging that isn't prompt hurts more than it should because I'm not prepared for it. Simply put judgings just can't take too long for the sake of the community and Althanas' writers.

While I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment about the promptness of judgings having an effect on the strength of community, I don't really understand why harsh judgments are easier to take when prompt. Could you elaborate?


I think part of the problem, too, is the amount of flack we judges get for saying negative things. Even if you don't say it to us directly, words gets around some way or another -- you say something to one person, who jokes about it to a friend, who happens to mention it to their friend, who coincidentally is also friends with the judge, and bingo, word gets out. Judges often spend a TON of time trying to soften the hard words they have to say in a thread precisely because they know that players will start telling horror stories to one another about what a hardass this person is and what a blowhard that guy is, or pick them, they're easy and will inflate your score.

So part of the problem in speed, I'd say, is simply people being grumpy about the score itself. Sometimes it might be justified, but most of the time I really wish people would just take their failures and their successes with good grace and not blame everything on the judge. And that's my two cents regarding one of the reasons why judging speed is sometimes affected. Take it as you will.

Gah... I practically had an aneurism reading this. If people are stupid enough to complain about stupid shit, then I don't care what they say, because they're stupid. If someone PMs me with "Waaaaaaaaaaah... I wanted a 65.72 and all I got was a 13.21" I say, "well thats unfortunate, next time become literate" and move on to another thread. Judges are public figures on this site, and players are absolutely reasonable complaining about them periodically. If you can't separate the idiotic complaints from the legitimate ones, bah...

I think a bigger problem is people using grumpy members as an excuse not to do their jobs.

[Godhand]

I disagree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. (words)

While I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment about the promptness of-(some more words)

You seem to feel pretty strongly about these issues. Wholeheartedly.

[Caden Law]

Three weeks? Jesus Christ. That's not even...That's not work. That's you being an asshole!

**Snip.**

Edit part two: As I was reading over Sighter's "leave Britney alone!" comments I once more felt the need to interject. Bitching about a judging is probably the most fun you can get ouf a low score. I don't do this anymore because at this point I know I'm the best. That's right, the best. But something like three years ago when some guy basically ran you down (in the sweetest most considerate-of-your-feelings way in the world, mind you) there was nothing like going around on AIM telling people that you heard he fucked his sister or something like that. Just the best feeling.
...how in the fricking balls-out HELL did you do that? I simultaneously agree and disagree with you! I hate you now!

*Head explodes.*

re: J: I understand your sentiment, but I was voting from a realistic/sympathetic point of view. Most of the Judges seem to put in a lot of effort to get to threads as quickly and/or comprehensively as they can. It's a balancing act between Quantity and Quality, with a side of slander and apparently thin skin playing the role of wild card. Morale counts, and if enough people bitch about you and/or enough threads are lackluster and redundant, there's just no helping a slowdown.

tl;dr shit happens, y'know?

[Call me J]

re: J: I understand your sentiment, but I was voting from a realistic/sympathetic point of view. Most of the Judges seem to put in a lot of effort to get to threads as quickly and/or comprehensively as they can. It's a balancing act between Quantity and Quality, with a side of slander and apparently thin skin playing the role of wild card. Morale counts, and if enough people bitch about you and/or enough threads are lackluster and redundant, there's just no helping a slowdown.

I can't speak for others, but I don't use wild card as a means of getting at anything other than the thread content.

Also, I put a lot of effort into most threads (I generally put effort into comments commensurate to the effort I feel the writers have put in), and if its a case where I'm putting in a reasonable amount of work time and there are threads left unjudged, that means we need more judges.

[Empyrean]

I voted two weeks to one month. Because, honestly, if I voted for anything less, I'd be such a hypocrite.

It's aside the point, but I've spent months not posting before, simply because of a combination of lack of inspiration and a possibly unhealthy dose of real life shoving itself in my way. It happens. I just want to keep in mind that mods have real lives themselves, and no matter how they try and make time for Althanas, sometimes it just doesn't happen. I know that in the Priority List of Life, Althanas isn't necessarily as high-ranking as other things. :)

I think the only thing that bugs me - and this is also sort of beside the point of timeliness - is when a short judgement is given to a long thread, or even a medium-length thread. It's never happened to me, but I can remember seeing 50+ post threads with judgements that consisted only of numbers and sparse comments here and there.
I wouldn't be asking for a novel or anything, just to make sure and add your reasons for a certain score. I, like many other people, came here to improve (and have fun, of course, but the gaining of awesomeness points is cool too :) ) and if I got a worse score on one aspect than another, I'd want to know why so I could work on it.

But to tell the truth, as awesome as it would be to see a judgement within three days, I really don't mind waiting a while before a judgement. I know if I had to wade through a 50+post juggernaut to judge it, I'd have to get through a few moans and groans, myself. :)

[Caden Law]

I can't speak for others, but I don't use wild card as a means of getting at anything other than the thread content.

Also, I put a lot of effort into most threads (I generally put effort into comments commensurate to the effort I feel the writers have put in), and if its a case where I'm putting in a reasonable amount of work time and there are threads left unjudged, that means we need more judges.
Erm...not the wild card in terms of actual judging, but the wild card in terms of when y'all get to it. Sorry 'bout that.

[Sighter Tnailog]

I'm not making a blanket argument that judges never need to get worked a bit. I'm just saying that I think it gets a bit excessive at times, and I think judges often work in tons of commentary as a way to defend against charges of bias or misinterpretation or any other thing that players like to whine about. There's legitimate working of the referee, and then there's whining, and I often see a lot more of the latter than of the former.

I'm glad to see at least one person knows that Godhand is the best, too. That warms my heart.

[Doomsday]

While I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment about the promptness of judgings having an effect on the strength of community, I don't really understand why harsh judgments are easier to take when prompt. Could you elaborate?


It's more a personal deal but when I'm done with a thread I'm ready, I've steeled myself for it and it won't hurt to much and I might learn from my mistakes as the thread is fresh on my mind but give a month and it's not so fresh and it's harder to learn being I probably forgot about everything save some key moments in the story and the spoils I'm hoping to get and then I learn less and feel the bite of the harshness more.

I think the key problem is that for judges there's more chaff than wheat. There are a handful of great judges but many either don't do anything or don't have the communication skills or tact that separates a critique from a criticism. Althanas seems to hire based purely on writing skill and forgeting things like work ethic or the skills and empathy to teach writing instead of just writing well.

[Lavinian Ambition]

Every time this debate comes around, it often comes down to the same thing. Everyone thinks threads should take X time to be judged, and other people make arguments for Y time. The end result is a lively debate, but no resolution. Its a simple fact that the judges can only judge so fast. Hell there was a time where I was the only active RoG mod and Call Me J was the only active Judge. Think about the wait time THEN.

I just learned that it gets judged when it gets judged. Having criticism or not should have NO bearing on the discussion. I understand a few people dislike waiting only to get what they feel is a slap on the wrist for their writing. It can be tough for someone to put a lot of effort into something only to get a bad review. However, that should have no bearing over the amount of time it takes. Fresh or not, you can always reread the thread and see if you agree, if you don't there's an appeal process.

[Witchblade]

I think thatw aiting 1-2 weeks for a judgement is a reasonable thing to ask, and that's from the point of submitting a thread, to being claimed and judged. I mean really, once a thread is claimed it should be judged within a few days, but it's the waiting to get claimed that sometimes takes the most time because there's almost always a back log. So, including all of that I think it's 1-2 weeks.

[Saxon]

I voted 3 days to a week after its been claimed and in the process of judging. I don't mind waiting for a thread, but with all the effort I put into these things it gets a bit excessive if you have to wait three weeks or more. I understand that judges have things they need to do and I sympathsize with them, but that doesn't mean that a judge gets to push that button every time something comes up. If your somebody who decides to become a judge, you take on a certain degree of responsibility that you have to be available most of the time to do the job. This is why all judges shouldn't be considered the 'good ones'.

Part of that is because of seniority and the other is the judge's individual ability to be able to coherently read a story, understand it, and then be able to explain to the writer what they did wrong and show them what they can do to improve. Not everybody has the knack it takes to be able to do that, and that needs to be accepted here. That does not mean a person cannot become a good teacher or an excellent judge, but one shouldn't expect that everyone will flock to them to read their stuff.

As for griping, I'm jaded. On the one hand, I think of Judges as pivotal figures in our community that should be more thick-skinned when it comes to the negative feedback, because it will always be there. No matter what policies you institute, how nice you are, or what you try to do to win them over. Some people just do not like you, and for whatever stupid reason that may be you need to accept it and move on.

But, on the other hand, there are judges that probably just aren't up for the task and make the entire process a miserable endeavor. If thats the case, one of two things needs to happen; the judge either needs to lighten up and learn that they volunteered for this position and if they don't like it or don't appreciate the weight of responsibility they have, there is a revolving door out there of people that would gladly take their position and give it a shot or the Judge-in-question needs to step down/be replaced.

Judging is difficult, it can be boring, and having spent the last two days proofreading and editing Enemy line by line, I've gotten a small glimpse of how fucking slow it can be to read a thread from start to finish. Despite that, I think most if not all the people we have now as judges understand the dependency we have on them to continue this symbiotic relationship of ours and I would gladly wait to see what they have to say about threads or stories I've submitted to them.

Besides, even though Judging is a thankless job most of the time, the people I most admire on this site are the ones who can sit down and read anything anybody writes.. no matter how bad it is.. and be able to form an opinion on it, teach and explain what they can, and then do it again a few hours after that.

[Edward Judorne]

Edit: I've been re-reading that stuff about moderators pouring sugar over every judging they make and I think that shit needs to stop right now. When you're doing it on someone's, I don't know, something like someone's second thread and it's obvious they had never done creative writing before Althanas then it's slightly more palatable. But when you're soft-soaping some guy who's been here six months and hasn't improved then you have a problem.

I agree for the most part with this statement, because sometimes when the judges sugarcoat it, it makes it hard to understand what the critiscism truly is.

However, if they entirely removed the sugarcoating, it might cause too much of a ruckus. I say only sugarcoat it a bit. Instead of saying "You suck at spelling" or sugarcoating it, find some middle ground in there, like: You really need to work on your spelling"

That way, you aren't too harsh, but you aren't sugarcoating it too much either

[Cyrus the virus]

separates a critique from a criticism.

Haha!

But really, empathy sucks. Judging can be a lot of fun, and I can maybe hammer out three a week if I really push it, but life just isn't consistent with my kind of job, social life and school schedule. I do what I can, but I'm not exactly quick. I have no doubt that I know how to criticize a thread, though.

[Karuka]

Then, of course, are the people who can't take criticism at all, no matter how thickly you sugar-coat it. I gave someone a low score once with a relatively harsh judgment, and heard about a long couple of hours of complaints to another mod before that person came and gave me a nastygram.

Next thread of this person's I judged scored better and was worded gentler, but this person still decided to come and gripe. Another person got mad because I said "maybe you ought to proofread."

The truth is, everyone really ought to be proofreading, because most of the writers on this site, despite what egos say, are not amazing. If everyone was amazing, we'd need JC scores to be 90 or 95. Not 80+. And the judges on this site have to wade through piles and piles of threads each month, in which the writing is not amazing. Most of it is tolerable. Some of it is not. And we have to read it, carefully, and give it a fair judgment.

People ought to remember that they submit threads on Althanas because not only do they want their character to get EXP and level up, but that they want tips on how to be better writers.

If someone wants a compliment on his/her writing, if they want "that's nice, dear *pat on the head*," they should take it to their mama. It's not our job to pat people on the head. We might give pats on the back for improvements we've noticed, but only if they make the improvement. It doesn't mean we can say "you fucking suck, get the hell out of here because I never want to have to read another syllable of yours again," but it does mean that we shouldn't have to say "I like how you spelled the word "the" correctly. Mechanics: 1."

If someone can't take criticism, he or she go somewhere that there isn't any, because -all- productive members of this community get criticized about their work. -All- of us.

And how this relates to timeliness? It'd be a hell of a lot more encouraging to work on stuff and get it done fast if people would shut their big mouths and get on with their stories, instead of "I don't think I should have to proofread more because I already do," or "ur meen, i hate u."

[Zephyriah]

Wow.

For those that have been around long enough, they'll remember that I used to be a judge. Never before had someone come to me and complained about a judging that I'd give. I'm not saying that they didn't complain about me to others due to my harshness at times, but I never heard it. I'm appalled at how many whiners there are on this site. And here I was in my naive little world thinking that everybody just manned up, swallowed that big giganto pill of criticism and moved on with their stories.

For all whiners that don't get it, you will always be criticized for something. Call Me J has been criticized in the past for not describing a setting that well and i've been criticized for being too elaborate in my writing at times, which would lead to awkward sentence phrasing. I could be like, "Rawr!!! I'm Zephyriah! I'm a veteran! I've been playing for 4 years now! Waaahhh!!!!!"

But I don't. I shut my mouth and carry on.

Why?

Because there hasn't been a criticism that I've received where deep down I didn't understand it. Every bit of it I've been like, "yeah, that makes sense." And then in my next thread I would try to do better.

Now that my rant is out of the way, I think 1-2 weeks for both a thread to be claimed and judged is more than reasonable. Shyam is right when he says that if your going to commit to being a judge then you should try to get a thread out as quickly as possible. Yeah life hits you, I know. I stepped down from being a judge back in 2006 (or 2007) because I knew I couldn't commit the time for it. Shortly after, I couldn't even commit time to Althanas. But you step down and let someone else take your place.

[Demon Song]

I loved Dirk's judging in the tourneys. His detailed judging helped me improve my writing, and I thank him for that. THIS IS A SITE FOR IMPROVING WRITING SKILLS but most judges don't realize this and sugar coat even the lowest of scores.

[Call me J]

If someone wants a compliment on his/her writing, if they want "that's nice, dear *pat on the head*," they should take it to their mama. It's not our job to pat people on the head. We might give pats on the back for improvements we've noticed, but only if they make the improvement. It doesn't mean we can say "you fucking suck, get the hell out of here because I never want to have to read another syllable of yours again," but it does mean that we shouldn't have to say "I like how you spelled the word "the" correctly. Mechanics: 1."

The same thing could be said about moderators. Should we be so sensitive that we need little butt pats to judge threads? Might the whole system worked better if we ran it without requiring people's moms to be the only source of compassion?


For those that have been around long enough, they'll remember that I used to be a judge. Never before had someone come to me and complained about a judging that I'd give. I'm not saying that they didn't complain about me to others due to my harshness at times, but I never heard it. I'm appalled at how many whiners there are on this site. And here I was in my naive little world thinking that everybody just manned up, swallowed that big giganto pill of criticism and moved on with their stories.

I'm actually surprised no one has complained about you, not because you were a bad mod, but because you judged so many threads over time. This isn't a new phenomena at all, I think I got my first complaint against me over three years ago from Modrue, because he thought a thread should have scored in the JC range when it got closer to a 50. I still maintain my score was accurate, if he remembers, he'll probably still disagree. I honestly don't mind when people criticize me, I think it serves as an important check on the moderators. If a moderator is doing a bad job, someone needs to step up and make sure the bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch.

Additionally, you have to keep in mind, sometimes criticism I've gotten from players is that my comments weren't very helpful to them. Sometimes this is because I didn't communicate in my judging effectively, either because I assumed the player knew something he/she didn't know, or because I didn't take enough time in the judgment. Just like players can learn to be better writers through my criticism, I can learn to become a better moderator through theirs.


For all whiners that don't get it, you will always be criticized for something. Call Me J has been criticized in the past for not describing a setting that well

This is a bald faced lie. I have never been criticized for anything ever! Every thread I do scores a 99 and people shower me with praise for it. Even the category in which I get only a nine is filled with nothing but praise.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Demon Song
I loved Dirk's judging in the tourneys. His detailed judging helped me improve my writing, and I thank him for that. THIS IS A SITE FOR IMPROVING WRITING SKILLS but most judges don't realize this and sugar coat even the lowest of scores.

I agree. The only thing that bugged me about Dirks judgings was that he would announce the winner at the beginning of his post instead of the end, thus killing all suspense ;).

[Demon Song]

That upset me too. I missed scrolling down and having my heart explode from the pressure.

[Karuka]

The same thing could be said about moderators. Should we be so sensitive that we need little butt pats to judge threads? Might the whole system worked better if we ran it without requiring people's moms to be the only source of compassion?

No, but I'm more inclined to be compassionate to people that don't whine when they get criticism than people that know nothing but how to whine, and if an oldbie wants to whine over something like score, that person should have the sense to realize that it's been said before, and if they don't fix it, it'll be said again. I can understand a newbie whining a little, and I don't mind answering their questions. I don't mind answering legit questions and concerns from oldbies, if I have time.

But the same "compassion" sword should also be turned on the players. It takes time, effort, and energy to read a thread, some more than others. It takes time and energy away from our writing, puts stress on us to crank out more and more judgments as the site grows and people submit more threads, and to try and give a little encouragement while criticizing so that people actually get better.

There's one player I know that has gotten the same comments in mechanics over and over again, since before I came to Althanas. This player has never taken the time to fix it, despite having been recommended to write in Word and use a spell checker, proofread, and get a partner to proofread. I have offered this player to proofread their stuff, only to be turned down. And then this player gets frustrated when they get the same comments -again.- I've never actually judged this player, but I have RP'd with them.

There's another player I know that was gone for a long while, and came back last summer. When he first came back, he was getting scores in the 30's and 40's. I judged some of his stuff (a bunch of his stuff, actually, over time). I gave him some of those 30's and 40's, and gave him plenty of advice and criticism. Over time, I've seen him come to take that advice, and the last thing I judged with him in it scored in the 60's. He takes the criticism with maybe a little frustration, but doesn't whine about it.

The players that take advice improve. The ones that don't take advice don't. The ones that whine and whine grate on everybody's nerves.

It's not our job to make them better, it's their job to make themselves better. And this applies to mods as players, too. We're not amazing writers, either, we're decent, and we can stand to improve. I'm not saying that we're perfect.

But we are supposed to be relatively patient with the players we judge. Since we're trying to help them, since we've signed on to try and guide them to be better writers, whether they're horrible or great when they come to us, shouldn't we expect a certain level of courtesy from them, as well? It's not like we read and critique other people's threads for our own health, after all.

[Cyrus the virus]

For the record, I think all moderators would be completely and totally fine with discussing a judgment if a writer disagrees with some things, or doesn't understand why they got a particular score. I know that if someone approaches me with a question, regardless or what it is, I pretty much cannot ever be upset with them because they came to me.

The problem is when people complain about a judge/fellow player/moderator/whatever to a friend, and word gets passed around. It is not at all fun to hear that people have been bitching about you to others, but not to you.

I mean, if I give a thread a 40 and you think it's better, talk to me about it and explain why. I'll be more than happy to explain why I scored it the way I did, and I'll likely feel appreciated and respected as a human being, too.

I'm guilty too, of course, I always used to love complaining about people. Now, though, I see that it's just not productive. It doesn't make me feel better, and it just stirs the brew of hate(c).

[Max Dirks]

Two ideas:

(1) This thread, if anything, shows how much the allure of being a moderator has degraded throughout the years. It is important to remember that moderators are volunteers. They give their time to this site to help us become better writers. They've done an amazing job.

Writers on Althanas have become much better, causing a systematic change in the judging process--it is much more time consuming, the players expectations are higher, and complaints over judgments has increased tenfold. The moderators become criticized, they lose their passion, the quality of their work decreases, they squabble with one another to complete work, and eventually they lose complete interest. On the other side, the players notice the lack of interest, they see the infighting, and lose respect for the moderators. It seems like most players who apply to be moderators are either a) former moderators returning b) players who feel obligated to do it c) "coerced" into applying by a current moderator. Before I left, no one was putting effort into the applications. When players like this are hired, the circle continues.

We need to bring back the passion of being a moderator.

The way to do this is simple: pay the moderators. Award them EXP and GP for completing a judgment. Give them an incentive to enjoy being a judge. Reverse the process as a whole. For every judgment completed, bazaar thread managed, character approved, give the moderator some EXP relative to his/her involvement in the thread. I would not be adversed to seeing 1000 EXP going out per judgment. Whatever the reward is, it should be PER ACTION, and not PER WEEK, MONTH, etc. Give players an incentive to want to become moderators. Give moderators an incentive to judge. That solves the problem.

(2) Everyone is at a different writing level. There are players on Althanas that are in high school who are better writers than I will ever be, but that does not hinder my ability to point out flaws in their writing. J.R.R. Tolkien, while a brilliant story teller, is the most incoherent person I've ever read (possibly because he was a linguist). J.K. Rowling's characters (with the exception of perhaps Dumbledore, are ALL mary-sues. Respect your judges.

Santhalas initially had planned to form Althanas into more of a workshop than a editor critique forum. Why not re-invent this idea. Why don't we create a new subforum under the Role-Player's Corner called "Writing Workshop," where all players can critique each other's writing. Serilliant can make it so that someone can choose to do a workshop when they submit a judgment request. If the choice is selected on the request, the workshop forum will automatically populate with a link to the player's thread. Then everyone can use the rubric, or throw in a thing or two about the player's writing or their progress as a writer.

Obviously, a moderator will still determine a score for reward purposes, but now the judge will not have to worry so much about commentary, and can look to the workshop to see if he/she missed anything major while judging it. This would certain address things like Karuka's proof-reading example, can can encompass so much more.

In any event, let the moderators know if you like these ideas. Or if you have different ideas, post them up. They do listen.

[Cyrus the virus]

Agree with rewards! :p Maybe 1000 is a bit much, though. I'm sure one or two folks would think rewarding the moderators is 'elitist' and/or evil in some manner, but I guarantee productivity and quality if it happens. And happier moderators, likely.

[Jobe]

Give it a shot and see if it sticks. Rewards and the workshop solve a lot of problems and I'm kind've surprised this hasn't been brought up before. I agree with Cyrus that 1000 EXP is a bit much, but I'm sure a lot of us wouldn't be against seeing some of the hardworking staff here earning some extra scratch and it could be fair compensation considering their work for the site often detracts from their own writing and character development.

Who knows, I'm sure a mod would be more satisfied with EXP/Gold for their work than just 'kindhearted words' as compensation. Jesus, this really is a decent idea. Kudos, Max. ;)

[Chiroptera]

I think rewarding judges is a good idea, but at the same time it might attract people who really aren't good at editing and who just want to do it for the booty. Is there a need for more mods aside from the judging demand?

I said one to two weeks was a good waiting period for a number of reasons. I have had quests waiting for more than a month, and though the suspense neary drove me crazy, I really appreciated the time and thought that had obviously been put into the judging and it was definitely worth the wait.

The trouble with the rubric that I think is the cause of some dissension is that the numbers can seem a little ambiguous. "Why did I get a four instead of a five? You only pointed out one typo, so why'd I get a 7 instead of a 9?" And nobody likes to hear criticism, but if a writer can't get over his pride and take the pointers to use them for improvement, it shouldn't be something that the judges have to worry about.

And I like the idea of the Writer's Workshop. It's nifty.

[Cyrus the virus]

We won't hire someone as a judge who we won't believe would make a good one, so no worries there.

And the rewards thing has been brought up before, but it's been shot down, too. Things may be different now, but I have no idea. Some will love the idea and some will oppose it completely.

[Karuka]

For the record, I think all moderators would be completely and totally fine with discussing a judgment if a writer disagrees with some things, or doesn't understand why they got a particular score. I know that if someone approaches me with a question, regardless or what it is, I pretty much cannot ever be upset with them because they came to me.

The problem is when people complain about a judge/fellow player/moderator/whatever to a friend, and word gets passed around. It is not at all fun to hear that people have been bitching about you to others, but not to you.

I mean, if I give a thread a 40 and you think it's better, talk to me about it and explain why. I'll be more than happy to explain why I scored it the way I did, and I'll likely feel appreciated and respected as a human being, too.

My. Sentiments. Exactly.

And Chiro, it's like Cyrus said. There's actually a screening process for new judges, and then a test once the screening is over.

[Edward Judorne]

You know, if someone is going to take it harshly no matter how much you sugar coat it, there is really no point in sugarcoating it at all, is there? now, I'm not above complaining to judges, but mycomplaints are usually along the lines of "you didn't give me enough detail on how to improve in this catagory. Mind fixing that?"

The reason I don't complain about anything else is because I have read what the judges have to say and realize they have good points.

[Godhand]

Agree with rewards! :p Maybe 1000 is a bit much, though. I'm sure one or two folks would think rewarding the moderators is 'elitist' and/or evil in some manner, but I guarantee productivity and quality if it happens. And happier moderators, likely.

That is me.

I am that person.

[Karuka]

You are that person no matter what, eh, Godhand?

[Godhand]

If you've ever been cut off in traffic while being given the finger by a man that had obviously been drinking then that was me and no I don't apologize for it or feel the least bit bad about it.

P.S. I'm the greatest.

[Karuka]

Well, damn, if I'd known it was you I'd have probably bumped you instead of rolled my eyes.

[Letho]

The way to do this is simple: pay the moderators. Award them EXP and GP for completing a judgment. Give them an incentive to enjoy being a judge. Reverse the process as a whole. For every judgment completed, bazaar thread managed, character approved, give the moderator some EXP relative to his/her involvement in the thread. I would not be adversed to seeing 1000 EXP going out per judgment. Whatever the reward is, it should be PER ACTION, and not PER WEEK, MONTH, etc. Give players an incentive to want to become moderators. Give moderators an incentive to judge. That solves the problem.By doing that, we'd be severing the connection between the experience earned and the characters that earned it. By doing that, a character could - and would - gain a level (and thus new abilities) because the writer performed an OOC duty unrelated to the character which makes absolutely no sense. The character experienced nothing, did nothing, and yet it advanced by some extraordinary miracle. This closely correlates to the GP (an IC currency) that used to be traded for OOC favors like drawings. We put a stop to that because it was unfair, and so would this be.

I am not completely opposed to rewarding mods in some way. I am, however, completely opposed to rewarding anybody with something pertaining to their character for something that has nothing to do with their character. Bottom line is, if you don't want to judge, don't be a judge, and if modship is taxing for you, don't be a mod.

EDIT: Not to mention that rewarding people for things like judging could have an opposite effect, especially if the rewards are as big as 1000 EXP. People wind up wanting to judge as many threads as possible just to gain the EXP, which ends up affecting the quality of the judgment.

[Dirge]

Honestly, I read the first two pages of this thread... and really don't see anything but back and forth between the two sides. Lol.

When I was a mod I had time to be a mod, hence my application and acceptance of the position. I took on Scara Brae because I had more time on my hands still... that's why I joined the team, because I had the time to.

If you don't have the time to do it, then don't slow down someone that might have the time. When I was a mod I would post in my threads, despite being in 6+ with about 4-5 characters, and then just sit and judge at night. I could claim and finish between 2-4 threads a day, and cleared the black log once or twice.

I also had time to clean out SB forum, retire old threads that weren't being posted in and such. Hell, that's why I was accepted and given the position, because I had the time. I still do, and I know others do, maybe just adding another judge who has a handful of free time couldn't hurt.

I voted for 3 days to a week. Since it might take 2-3 days to get to it, but it should be easily judged and completed within 24 hours. Even at my pace, I could read and judge a thread that was 50+ posts in a day... and then maybe a small one on the side or a battle. Judging and approving characters was the most fun I ever had on Althanas... and I was harsh, don't get me wrong, I did make mean comments from time to time. But when you've been on Althanas for over a year, and have put out work in threads that was amazing over and over, and you throw up a thread that's just to fill time or something... god knows I'm going to say something about it.

Especially if I rped with you before... lol.

[Jobe]

I am not completely opposed to rewarding mods in some way.

What do you propose they be rewarded with then? When I read this my thoughts quickly turned to actual money, but returned to the realm we call reality. I understand your point about this, and I agree with you to the point that it disrupts the flow between IC and OOC, but there isn't much else the site can give them as compensation for their work.

Instead of rewarding them based on judging, give them a salary of some kind. I've already heard that mods and admins have a bunch of perks already, what else could you offer them short of actual money or IC gold/exp and still think of it as satisfactory? There is only so much you can do for somebody before the question becomes this; are the people working for this site volunteers or are they hired hands? Only once that question has been answered can you really get down to brass tacks and figure out a viable solution.

Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one here whose thinking this, but when it comes to actually paying money to these mods it has to come out of somebody's pocket. If such a salary were to be insituted, all members would probably have to pay an annual fee in order to keep those salaries going and this begins to turn from a place of writing and roleplaying and into a business.

As much as I respect the moderators and administrators for their diligent work, I'll be the first to say that I'm unwilling to open my wallet and fork over actual money for it. And if such a thing were to happen, the only way I'd see myself contributing to it is if the staff that were hired were not only damn good at their job but actually worked their asses off to earn that kind of compensation and the words 'we have lives too' would no longer be an excuse used to explain the amount of work being done. Is that the kind of Althanas you would want to be a part of?

[Cyrus the virus]

Not to mention that rewarding people for things like judging could have an opposite effect, especially if the rewards are as big as 1000 EXP. People wind up wanting to judge as many threads as possible just to gain the EXP, which ends up affecting the quality of the judgment.

You know, people might say this, but there is not an ounce of actual evidence to support it. You're just speculating, and it's actually pretty insulting to me that you think judges would be so greedy.

And really, Luc has leveled up through many quests in which he didn't particularly practice his magic, didn't particularly read a new spell scroll, or anything. What about EXP rewards for HQs, for winning tournaments? These are bonuses people get for OOC activities, too.

All I'm saying is that if you want happy moderators, offer some EXP rewards. Luc isn't going to get 8k EXP and level up from judging three threads, but I will certainly feel as if my service is valued in some tangible way.

Also, we don't get any perks. We can change our user titles, I think. Moreover, some of us cannot participate in certain tournaments because we need to judge them (hey, I'd love to participate in the new tournament and help one of my two PGs, but I can't since I'm making a commitment to help judge the thing), cannot participate in a Feature Quest if we need to judge it, and are often complained about amongst others. I think it'd all be a bit easier to swallow if we got a little something in return. A few hundred EXP is not going to make or break anything - especially if you know the EXP formula.

[Call me J]

No, but I'm more inclined to be compassionate to people that don't whine when they get criticism than people that know nothing but how to whine, and if an oldbie wants to whine over something like score, that person should have the sense to realize that it's been said before, and if they don't fix it, it'll be said again. I can understand a newbie whining a little, and I don't mind answering their questions. I don't mind answering legit questions and concerns from oldbies, if I have time.

But the same "compassion" sword should also be turned on the players. It takes time, effort, and energy to read a thread, some more than others. It takes time and energy away from our writing, puts stress on us to crank out more and more judgments as the site grows and people submit more threads, and to try and give a little encouragement while criticizing so that people actually get better.

There's one player I know that has gotten the same comments in mechanics over and over again, since before I came to Althanas. This player has never taken the time to fix it, despite having been recommended to write in Word and use a spell checker, proofread, and get a partner to proofread. I have offered this player to proofread their stuff, only to be turned down. And then this player gets frustrated when they get the same comments -again.- I've never actually judged this player, but I have RP'd with them.

There's another player I know that was gone for a long while, and came back last summer. When he first came back, he was getting scores in the 30's and 40's. I judged some of his stuff (a bunch of his stuff, actually, over time). I gave him some of those 30's and 40's, and gave him plenty of advice and criticism. Over time, I've seen him come to take that advice, and the last thing I judged with him in it scored in the 60's. He takes the criticism with maybe a little frustration, but doesn't whine about it.

The players that take advice improve. The ones that don't take advice don't. The ones that whine and whine grate on everybody's nerves.

It's not our job to make them better, it's their job to make themselves better. And this applies to mods as players, too. We're not amazing writers, either, we're decent, and we can stand to improve. I'm not saying that we're perfect.

But we are supposed to be relatively patient with the players we judge. Since we're trying to help them, since we've signed on to try and guide them to be better writers, whether they're horrible or great when they come to us, shouldn't we expect a certain level of courtesy from them, as well? It's not like we read and critique other people's threads for our own health, after all.

You should hope for a certain level of courtesy. In an ideal world, you get it. If you don't get it, too bad, too sad. If some troll keeps you up at night, maybe your mommy can tell you a nice little bed time story.

Also, I think you missed my point of how judges should treat members how they want to be treated. If you want members to be nice to you, be nice to them.

Lastly, I'm vehemently opposed to payment for moderators, especially EXP payment. GP, I could tolerate, but I would rather judge everything myself than allow for payment.

[Zook Murnig]

I filled out the application for modship for the same reason Dirge did. I had time to spare. I wanted to be a larger part of Althanas. I also knew, through sources that will remain unnamed, that the help was needed. So I filled out the application, put some effort into it, and waited.

Contrary to what I've seen here in this thread from other mods, I enjoy what I do here most of the time. It gets trying at times, but I feel, as I wanted to, like I'm a more important part of Althanas as a community. I'm contributing. I also get to put in a word here and there on whatever background projects are going, and that's good.

I volunteered for this. And I love it. I wouldn't mind a little compensation for judges, but nothing in excess of a hundred EXP per level per judgment. It's just a small little boost, when you think of how the leveling formula works. Just the faintest little pat on the ass as you go out the door of the office that makes you feel good about yourself and what you do. It won't break the bank, or have judges leveling up noticeably faster than anyone else. But it feels good to look at your EXP score and see that it's a couple hundred higher than it was before you judged that thread.

[Heartsblood]

I strongly disagree with the idea of rewarding judges with EXP for their judgments. It's completely unfair. If I have to earn every last point of EXP through writing, then so should they.

[Nirov]

I honestly can't believe this argument is coming up again. It has come up so many times, we might as well call this the "morning wood" debate.

I am firmly and completely in the mind that Out-Of-Character services should not be rewarded by traditionally In-Character rewards. If mods want, as Zook puts it, a little pat on the back, we should thank them more often for their efforts. But the moderators are all volunteers (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/volunteer) (yes, I'm demonstrating a point by linking a word to a dictionary.) If we look at that link, we'd follow the guidelines of the second part of the definition, as comparing Althanas to the army is a daft argument when you consider Findelfin and Serilliant are fagging it up, and Karuka and Witchblade are on the front lines (where they could so obviously get "infections")

Volunteers do not and sure as fuck should not expect anything but gratitude and maybe a slice of cake at company parties. It's incredible to me that this is even coming up.

The staff already gets perks. They are the ruling class. They all have a voice in decision making. They have the ability to change their usertitles. They can see The Pit, the place where all the bad threads go, and so help me if any mod says that reading through those archives is not a fucking hoot, they're a goddamn liar and queer to the fifth degree.

You want EXP and GP because the Mod staff is unhappy? Well of fucking course they're unhappy! They're all volunteers! Hell, they're doing a job that few people really like. I was an intern. It had it's perks, but boy did it fucking suck in the end. You know what I did? Not ask for money, that's for sure. I kept helping out, though more poorly as time went on, my City's community television station because people depended on me and it brought a service to the community. I got thank yous, that's more than I asked.

[Liquid Ice]

Now, I know I'm brand-spanking-new, but it seems to me that a solution wouldn't be too hard. If you have to earn exp in character by writing, and mods want a small amount of exp per thread judged...

why not just have them judge threads in-character?

I mean like, as if they had been sitting in a tavern listening to the grand tale of your adventures, and they sit back sipping their ale trying to decide if what you told them is true or not. The better you tell it, the more the mod character is going to believe you and reward you.

[Max Dirks]

By doing that, we'd be severing the connection between the experience earned and the characters that earned itLetho, I think I'm going to call you out on this one. IC rewards for OOC effort and participation are completely integrated into the Althanas system. Here's a few examples that Cyrus didn't list: the bazaar (if a player can receive EXP for taking a bazaar thread beyond its usual scope, then a moderator should receive EXP for completing a bazaar transaction), "official" gambling (players place OOC bets on victors to be rewarded and almost always Althanas ended up paying out more than it took in), and CURRENT PG HQ bonus (you hold an HQ, you get extra EXP simply for being active). Think of it. Regions writers spend hours designing and developing their regions. They put tons of effort into creating FQs or other features to make their regions fresh and entertaining. Most of this involves writing. Just go look at any regions FAQ. If a player addresses that in their stories, they get a higher setting score, and more EXP because of it. Think of the RoG. The staff puts tons of effort into reading profiles and balancing them for play in Althanas. In fact, they do it so efficiently that we rarely have any backlog there. Why on earth should they not be rewarded?

Cyrus is right, Letho, you are speculating too much. If a moderator fails due to greed, FIRE THEM. Do you realize in the history of Althanas, no moderator has been fired that hasn't disappeared or withdrew on their own. Many moderators, myself included once, have trouble juggling both being a moderator and a player. In fact, the only two that I can say have done it truly well are you and Damon. Give it a chance. If it fails, scrap the program. There is a direct correlation between tournaments, gambling, HQ bonuses and activity. Reward them for being active, don't give them nothing for it.

I strongly disagree with the idea of rewarding judges with EXP for their judgments. It's completely unfair. If I have to earn every last point of EXP through writing, then so should they.Heartsblood, I fail to see how this proposal is unfair, at all. It works like anything else on Althanas. If you want extra EXP go win a tournament, make a bazaar transaction thread stellar, or go take a PG HQ from a group that holds one. If you want to get EXP for being a moderator, write damn well, show enthusiasm for Althanas, fill out a stellar application and get admitted to the squad. It's that simple.

Make being a moderator worth something.

[Edward Judorne]

I honestly can't believe this argument is coming up again. It has come up so many times, we might as well call this the "morning wood" debate.

I am firmly and completely in the mind that Out-Of-Character services should not be rewarded by traditionally In-Character rewards. If mods want, as Zook puts it, a little pat on the back, we should thank them more often for their efforts. But the moderators are all volunteers (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/volunteer) (yes, I'm demonstrating a point by linking a word to a dictionary.) If we look at that link, we'd follow the guidelines of the second part of the definition, as comparing Althanas to the army is a daft argument when you consider Findelfin and Serilliant are fagging it up, and Karuka and Witchblade are on the front lines (where they could so obviously get "infections")

Volunteers do not and sure as fuck should not expect anything but gratitude and maybe a slice of cake at company parties. It's incredible to me that this is even coming up.

The staff already gets perks. They are the ruling class. They all have a voice in decision making. They have the ability to change their usertitles. They can see The Pit, the place where all the bad threads go, and so help me if any mod says that reading through those archives is not a fucking hoot, they're a goddamn liar and queer to the fifth degree.

You want EXP and GP because the Mod staff is unhappy? Well of fucking course they're unhappy! They're all volunteers! Hell, they're doing a job that few people really like. I was an intern. It had it's perks, but boy did it fucking suck in the end. You know what I did? Not ask for money, that's for sure. I kept helping out, though more poorly as time went on, my City's community television station because people depended on me and it brought a service to the community. I got thank yous, that's more than I asked.

Um... You could have sugarcoated that a bit, but you have a valid point. If they got something in return every time, they wouldn't be volunteers, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get something out of general kindness every once in a while.

[Karuka]

Now, I know I'm brand-spanking-new, but it seems to me that a solution wouldn't be too hard. If you have to earn exp in character by writing, and mods want a small amount of exp per thread judged...

why not just have them judge threads in-character?

I mean like, as if they had been sitting in a tavern listening to the grand tale of your adventures, and they sit back sipping their ale trying to decide if what you told them is true or not. The better you tell it, the more the mod character is going to believe you.

Quite simply, because it would be skewed to the character's perspective, which is a bad thing. While the rubric does incorporate subjective means by necessity, since we aren't machines up here, we do try to make it objective.

If we were to judge in character, then we as writers (and Althanas does tend to hire from its best to judge), then we'd have to skew the judgment to a character's perspective.

Let's say there's a thread, and I were to say that it has a Continuity value of 5. Karuka (the character I play under this, my mod account) doesn't care where you were or what you were doing so long as you tell it well, so she'd probably assign it an 8, because it's not important. It would also make the Mechanics score useless, because a character would be hearing, not reading.

She might also think that a certain feat was really cool, while I'd look at a profile after reading the thread and say "you were powergaming a little there, watch out for that in the future," and another one of my characters might say "Yeah, right. Go have a reality check and one less beer."

A character can't be as objective as a player that's completely detached from the story to begin with.

[Molotov]

There is a direct correlation between tournaments, gambling, HQ bonuses and activity.

Was this pearson's, kendall's tau-b, or spearman?

[Serilliant]

There will not be rewards for moderatorship. We already get perks like usertitles, bold/italic usernames, a special forum, and the love, respect, and adoration of an entire forumfull of people (right?)

You should be on staff because you want to be. If it makes you unhappy to be a mod, please please resign.

Back to the topic, a lot of the discussion here has given rise to some new, fresh ideas to deal with the judging system we currently have. I'm going to speak with Santhalas, draft up a proposal, and see what everyone thinks. Stay tuned.

[Max Dirks]

There will not be rewards for moderatorship.Althanas is for the players.

Before you're so quick to end a discussion, perhaps you should take a moment to hear what everyone has to say.

[Serilliant]

Gladly. In a different thread. Please stick to the point of this one.

[Caden Law]

Lastly, I'm vehemently opposed to payment for moderators, especially EXP payment. GP, I could tolerate, but I would rather judge everything myself than allow for payment.
Agreed.

And for what it's worth, Cyrus, I've seen it happen before and heard of similar examples on other sites. Most people can be trusted, but there are always the bad apples who exploit the system and promptly ruin it so badly that it gets scrapped in short order with various levels of backlash against the offenders in question. If you're going to judge, it should be done out of enjoyment and/or an actual work ethic, whether you get paid for it or not.

EDIT: Apologies to Serilliant. Didn't see his post. If he wants, I'll delete this.

[Slayer of the Rot]

The time it takes to judge depends both on the individual judge and the size/quality of the thread.

If your thread isn't judged when you wanted it to be, well, these things happen. A judge is a volunteer with his or her own life. So while you wait, make a new thread. If you need the thread judged before you can move on, pass the time by getting out of your house or something.

[Edward Judorne]

For those that are truly impatient, try this. Pick out ten already judged threads (no fair picking any you were in) of varying lengths, read all of them all the way through, then write your own opinion on a piece of scrap paper on what you would score everyone in each of the catagories and the overall score. Now try to do that everyday for a week, then for a month, then a year. That is what you might be asking the judges to do if you you don't cut them some slack. so appreciate that they are just willing to judge for no pay and leave it at that. Thank you.

[Call me J]

For those that are truly impatient, try this. Pick out ten already judged threads (no fair picking any you were in) of varying lengths, read all of them all the way through, then write your own opinion on a piece of scrap paper on what you would score everyone in each of the catagories and the overall score. Now try to do that everyday for a week, then for a month, then a year. That is what you might be asking the judges to do if you you don't cut them some slack. so appreciate that they are just willing to judge for no pay and leave it at that. Thank you.

I tend to think players are reasonable to get a little antsy after a week or so. I've probably judged more threads than anyone else posting here. By all means I do feel the players should show some gratitude, but Althanas is for the players, and the players should be served.