Moderator Rewards

[Max Dirks]

Per Serilliant's request, I've moved this into another thread.

The judgment thread, if anything, shows how much the allure of being a moderator has degraded throughout the years. It is important to remember that moderators are volunteers. They give their time to this site to help us become better writers. They've done an amazing job.

Writers on Althanas have become much better, causing a systematic change in the judging process--it is much more time consuming, the players expectations are higher, and complaints over judgments has increased tenfold. The moderators become criticized, they lose their passion, the quality of their work decreases, they squabble with one another to complete work, and eventually they lose complete interest. On the other side, the players notice the lack of interest, they see the infighting, and lose respect for the moderators. It seems like most players who apply to be moderators are either a) former moderators returning b) players who feel obligated to do it c) "coerced" into applying by a current moderator. Before I left, no one was putting effort into the applications. When players like this are hired, the circle continues.

We need to bring back the passion of being a moderator.

The way to do this is simple: pay the moderators. Award them EXP and GP for completing a judgment. Give them an incentive to enjoy being a judge. Reverse the process as a whole. For every judgment completed, bazaar thread managed, character approved, give the moderator some EXP relative to his/her involvement in the thread. I would not be adversed to seeing 1000 EXP going out per judgment. Whatever the reward is, it should be PER ACTION, and not PER WEEK, MONTH, etc. Give players an incentive to want to become moderators. Give moderators an incentive to judge. That solves the problem.

Let's hear your inputs.

[Christoph]

I have to say that I agree with the logic behind your proposal. That said, I'd assign significantly smaller EXP compensation -- just enough to make up for time spent doing mod duties that could have otherwise been spent roleplaying.

[Rayse Valentino]

No IC rewards for OOC stuff is a good policy. So is no IC rewards for OOC stuff (fanart, etc). If you want to reward their OOC work, give them OOC rewards. Bigger PM box, maybe their own little webspace/image uploading thing for on-site use, larger avatars, etc.

I wouldn't be completely adverse to a tiny exp reward like 50 per judging or so, but it's good policy to stay consistent and not have double standards.

edit: Actually, that amount is so minute that it doesn't really matter. I guess I'd rather not give IC rewards for OOC stuff. Moreover, people should be writing for the sake of writing and having fun. If you're writing for the sake of gold and exp, then you're here for the wrong reason. Gold and exp are supposed to be a means to advance your character because it's difficult to compare each other without arbitrary values, it's not supposed to be a 'goal'. If you give moderators exp and money, you're acknowledging that exp and gold are a goal and putting moderators into a negative light that they didn't ask for.

edit2: moderators should have bigger PM boxes anyway. deleting PMs sux.

[Doomsday]

while I do like the idea of something that'll make the judges work faster but I think it wouldn't help the problem of mods showing contempt to the poorer writers in Althanas. And really It is a Volunteer job so payment shouldn't matter. They have to like what they do and want to do it and I don't think any such rewards would help, other than maybe to help Shyam max out his level^^

[HikariAngel]

As great as that would be, I am wholeheartedly against it.

The idea is excellent in theory. I applied to be a mod here - judging only - knowing full well just how much work it is/would be. Sadly I have yet to be added to the staff, but I feel that paying a mod to judge profiles isn't the best way to get stuff done. Sure it would get some people in motion, but from what I've seen, most, if not all of the mods can finish judging threads in a week tops after claiming it. That is a very reasonable length of time.

Besides. Paying them to judge threads? I have yet to score a thread that nets me 1000 XP, yet you're giving that much away for every thread they judge? I'm sorry, but that will only cause inflated levels. They could devote one account to judging, never RP with it, and after one year have more XP than anyone else on the site.

People judge because they want to or they want to help out the community. I don't know anyone who has applied to be a judge for the fringe benefits. It all comes down to this: If you aren't enjoying what you are doing, you can always quit. Nobody will look down on you and someone new who wants to and will enjoy the job can always step up to take your place.

In hindsight... that didn't come out the way I wanted it to...

[BlackAndBlueEyes]

A small EXP bonus relative to the size of the quest judged--not to exceed maybe 150 EXP--would be more than sufficient, if you were going to go the IC reward way. It may seem small at first, but after a while, that shit adds up.

OOC rewards... Maybe have a point system? One point per judgment/approval/bazaar thread, then have a list of crap you can exchange your points for.

[Karuka]

I'm of the opinion that the best reward for mods comes from the grace and gratitude of the players.

In other words...less whining and griping, especially behind the mod's back, and spare a thought to send a brief two line thank you PM. I know that I'm always happier to judge someone again when they've expressed gratitude in the past, and since I know they actually appreciate it, it's easier to forgive a couple of the more minor details that I might otherwise nitpick on. It doesn't mean that said details won't be mentioned, depending on the level of detail requested, it means that I'm less likely to detract for them.

[Skie and Avery]

When you're less likely to detract something from someone who kissed up to you, that's bribery. XD

But I don't think there should be IC rewards for OOC work, which has been stated. I wouldn't mind a bigger avatar size. =P

[Christoph]

Whether it was originally the intention or not, EXP is a goal in addition to a convenient standard of measurement. I'll go out on a limb and say that a large source of enjoyment for most people here is seeing their characters grow. The time that mods spend by judging, approving profiles, and doing bazaar threads takes away from their character's potential growth. All I'd propose would be a small amount, a couple hundred at the most for judged threads, to compensate their efforts. I don't see how it's unfair or a double standard, or in any way harmful to anyone's roleplaying experience.

[Lavinian Ambition]

[18:44] SethDahlios: Oh no, THankless jobs you are STILL bitched at.
[18:44] SethDahlios: Say I volunteer as a janitor. I will still be bitched out if I miss a single spill, but I volunteered. No one thanks me for keeping the place clean, but I do it all the same.
[18:45] SethDahlios: You volunteered to judge threads. You get bitched at if the backlog becomes too much. And people will complain its not to their liking (read: you didn't clean it to their liking) But you do it all the same. You knew going into it you probably would be yelled at.
[18:46] Friend: Yeah. But eventually you get sick of it, say "to hell with it, go to hell all of you," and leave.
[18:46] SethDahlios: And thats just like being a volunteer janitor
[18:47] SethDahlios: If you got paid for it, it wouldn't be volunteer and the cirteria would be far stricter

[Jasmine]

As I said in the other thread under my Heartsblood account, I'm strongly opposed to rewarding mods with EXP for OOC work. It would not be fair that their characters can advance because of something the player does OOC-wise, but the regular members can not.

I understand that the mods have characters that they want to play and advance and that their mod duties takes away from the time they have to play their characters, BUT they still volunteered to judge, hopefully in the knowledge that it would be time consuming.

By definition, a volunteer is someone who performs a service without pay because they want to do it.

All this is not to say that I don't think mods should get some kind of compensation for their hard work. I appreciate the work they do very much, even if I sometimes disagree with how something was judged. Nearly everyone disagrees with a judging at some point in time, so that is moot.

I am not opposed to rewarding mods, just in rewarding them with EXP. As it was suggested above, do a point system with a points store and give them say like 5-10 points or so for each judging or profile approved. Didn't we already have some kind of point system in which you get so many points for bringing in new people? Beef that up a little for the mods.

OOC work should be compensated with OOC rewards, and vice versa. If the mods can get IC EXP for judging threads, then we should go back to allowing people to pay each other with IC gold for OOC favors like drawing their characer.

[Doomsday]

I'm of the opinion that the best reward for mods comes from the grace and gratitude of the players.

In other words...less whining and griping, especially behind the mod's back, and spare a thought to send a brief two line thank you PM. I know that I'm always happier to judge someone again when they've expressed gratitude in the past, and since I know they actually appreciate it, it's easier to forgive a couple of the more minor details that I might otherwise nitpick on. It doesn't mean that said details won't be mentioned, depending on the level of detail requested, it means that I'm less likely to detract for them.

I actually agree that we should thank mods for doing a good job and often times I do thank the ones that do a good job. Sadly there are mods that are the opposite and they do bad jobs, don't do anything or show contempt in their judgments. To be a mod you have to love your work and I know what it's like to have someone request not me as a judge during my short time. Heck there was a public thread that thanked all of Althanas staff but me. But people need an out for frustrations that come with being critiqued and well saying that they can't talk to friends about it is just not going to happen. And sometimes judges show outright contempt to writers and something has to be done about that.

[Max Dirks]

Althanas appears to have come a long way since the days when all moderators were considered level 50 and could freely bunny/power game other characters (see Irisathena and Analogue Bubblebath).

I'm afraid you're all taking the 1000 EXP amount too literally. If the moderators adopt a reward system, the reward will most likely be determined by formula that takes into account the length of the quest, the depth of commentary requested/provided, and the time in which it takes the thread to be judged/moderated. Everything system based on Althanas is formulaic, why should this be any different?

The time that mods spend by judging, approving profiles, and doing bazaar threads takes away from their character's potential growthChristoph has a good point. Many people have left the Althanas staff to be players. Although there are a few examples of moderators who have been simultaneously successful as players, most people find it difficult to juggle both responsibilities.

All of this talk about "volunteering" is ridiculous. You volunteer to do something that you enjoy. It's clear from this thread and others that some moderators, due to one reason or another, no longer enjoy being moderators. They enjoy writing and helping other writers grow, but they do not enjoy being moderators. They stick with it for you guys. Of course, I can't blame them. Respect for the moderators seems to have declined too.

I have yet to score a thread that nets me 1000 XP... The solution to your problem is simple. You're an excellent writer. Just beat someone in a battle whose character is at a much higher level than yours.

[Cyrus the virus]

What in the hell am I going to do with store space, a bigger avatar, or some other garbage?

This is kind of a funny argument in the first place, this volunteer shit. Are people suggesting that volunteers shouldn't be paid if the resources to pay them are readily available?

I'm going to be fairly blunt. Several judges are very unsatisfied with the amount of work they put into the job, considering that all they get in return is flack. They can quit, and they will be replaced. Then the new judges will eventually feel the same. This whole 'quit when you're sick of it!' idea is not solving the problem. The job is too thankless, that's the thing.

I understand the 'no IC rewards for OOC work' argument, but I think we should eliminate the 100EXP bonus for good profiles, the starting gold for new characters, tournament EXP bonuses, and any EXP-related HQ bonuses if that's the route we're taking. This is not exactly the same situation as it would be if I were getting 5,000 gold for drawing somebody's character.

And hey, if I get 150 EXP for judging a thread when I need 8,000 to level up, what's the point? Perhaps judges should receive 5% of what they need to level, at their current level, for each thread they judge.

Because trust me, if I get 3,000EXP for every quest I complete as a writer (due to being level 8), this 'unfair advantage' that judges would have for getting 200EXP for judging a thread is a worthless argument.


I actually agree that we should thank mods for doing a good job and often times I do thank the ones that do a good job. Sadly there are mods that are the opposite and they do bad jobs, don't do anything or show contempt in their judgments. To be a mod you have to love your work and I know what it's like to have someone request not me as a judge during my short time. Heck there was a public thread that thanked all of Althanas staff but me. But people need an out for frustrations that come with being critiqued and well saying that they can't talk to friends about it is just not going to happen. And sometimes judges show outright contempt to writers and something has to be done about that.

Show me an example of contempt. One that isn't from your imagination like everything you always complain about. I don't want to lose my cool or insult you, but you consistently make these groundless claims and I am pretty damn sick of it.

The only contempt I've ever seen shown in a judgment, was actually a judge expressing disappointment to their criticisms being ignored again and again and again by a writer who doesn't take their advice. That's it. And even then, that is not what contempt is.

While I'm getting all heated, I might as well respond (briefly) to posts in the other thread:

Zook: I loved RoG too. I was great at it, it wasn't hard, and I liked coming online to read new profiles. Start judging and see how lovely it is.

And:

I kept helping out, though more poorly as time went on

Ding ding ding.

[Christoph]

As I said in the other thread under my Heartsblood account, I'm strongly opposed to rewarding mods with EXP for OOC work. It would not be fair that their characters can advance because of something the player does OOC-wise, but the regular members can not.

I understand that the mods have characters that they want to play and advance and that their mod duties takes away from the time they have to play their characters, BUT they still volunteered to judge, hopefully in the knowledge that it would be time consuming.

By definition, a volunteer is someone who performs a service without pay because they want to do it.

All this is not to say that I don't think mods should get some kind of compensation for their hard work. I appreciate the work they do very much, even if I sometimes disagree with how something was judged. Nearly everyone disagrees with a judging at some point in time, so that is moot.

I am not opposed to rewarding mods, just in rewarding them with EXP. As it was suggested above, do a point system with a points store and give them say like 5-10 points or so for each judging or profile approved. Didn't we already have some kind of point system in which you get so many points for bringing in new people? Beef that up a little for the mods.

OOC work should be compensated with OOC rewards, and vice versa. If the mods can get IC EXP for judging threads, then we should go back to allowing people to pay each other with IC gold for OOC favors like drawing their characer.



The problem with OOC rewards for moderator work is that there really aren't any such rewards that are particularly great. I mean, the larger PM box is nice, but all it does is allow me to be lazy about clearing out my messages. And we get access to The Pit. I'm sorry to disappoint everyone, but it's really nothing extremely exciting. What else is there to give out? A bigger avatar size? I don't use it. It's too easy to photoshop my images smaller if I needed to.

A small EXP reward is the only compensation that's really worth anything. I honestly don't see what's so horribly unfair about it. It won't give the moderators any kind of advantage over regular players. If anything, it might make more people willing to give the whole staff thing a shot.

On a side note, I don't think that it's unfair to compare small EXP compensation for vital moderator work to charging GP for art. The former would be heavily regulated and would fairly and evenly compensate mods for their time and services. The latter could not be realistically regulated (since who could tell players what to charge for their pictures) and would give a small number of players a huge source of gold for something that isn't vital or even strongly linked to the site.

[Lavinian Ambition]

Matt, you knwo me, you knwo the work I've put into this place. So I sure as hell hope you don't think of me as making baseless accusations. I've been on both sides of the fence, so I think I get to respond to the first of your three posts.


What in the hell am I going to do with store space, a bigger avatar, or some other garbage?

If really this wasn't a privilege, then how come the ordinary players don't get this? Sorry Matt, but since those very things are getting treated as a privilege and not a right, then they're going to be seen as such. We all had custom user titles, larger avatars, the only thing Mods got was the bigger PM box, and that was because they might NEED it. Just because they took away the average user privileges, and gave them to mods doesn't mean you can dismiss it out of hand. That was a decision made by Max Dirks and the the other Admins. So, excuse us if we bring them up.


This is kind of a funny argument in the first place, this volunteer shit. Are people suggesting that volunteers shouldn't be paid if the resources to pay them are readily available?

By the very concept of volunteering, yes. Its the exact same situation as an internship. You aren't paid for your time, you volunteer it. In return when you go out into the world to get a job they give you a good review and spread good faith about you. You receive NO other benefit for such an act. Even then said benefit does not guarantee you get said job. I understand you feel overworked, but if you do, there is always jumping to my side of the fence, as Serilliant has pointed out.


I'm going to be fairly blunt. Several judges are very unsatisfied with the amount of work they put into the job, considering that all they get in return is flack. They can quit, and they will be replaced. Then the new judges will eventually feel the same. This whole 'quit when you're sick of it!' idea is not solving the problem. The job is too thankless, that's the thing.

And here's the thing Matt, its always been that way. I understood when I took it up. I left for other reasons. I knew going into it I was going into the lions den. As I stated earlier, judgings are one way communication. People don't even think to talk to a mod about getting help. Instead they see the mod as their teacher, and since most of them are high schoolers, they vilify their teachers. The end result is, the judges are vilified and the average user doesn't think to open lines of communications between the judges. The end result is that judges feel unappreciated, and the average writer feels like their under scrutiny. Thats just the nature of the beast.


I understand the 'no IC rewards for OOC work' argument, but I think we should eliminate the 100EXP bonus for good profiles, the starting gold for new characters, tournament EXP bonuses, and any EXP-related HQ bonuses if that's the route we're taking. This is not exactly the same situation as it would be if I were getting 5,000 gold for drawing somebody's character.

Except the 100 bonus exp for a profile can be explained as the fruits of such experience before they truly start their adventure. The gold is the paltry sum they've managed to scrounge up for their adventuring lifestyle. The EXP related to an HQ is running the logistics of a powergroup, and the experience of preforming the upkeep maintanance and security of said HQ. Tournament EXP bonus, yes, we can do without. How about we give away unique magical items, or even rarer metal ones. I'd love to see a tournament where an adamantine weapon is offer, rather than enough exp to level most people who enter the tournament.


And hey, if I get 150 EXP for judging a thread when I need 8,000 to level up, what's the point? Perhaps judges should receive 5% of what they need to level, at their current level, for each thread they judge.

Because trust me, if I get 3,000EXP for every quest I complete as a writer (due to being level 8), this 'unfair advantage' that judges would have for getting 200EXP for judging a thread is a worthless argument.

If I do my job, and someone walks up to me and gives me a free food coupon for the arcade across the street, every time I met a certain criteria I'd wonder what was up. The fact that something unrelated and should be fun for me is being offered for doing my job seems off. Sorry, I just dislike the idea of experience being thrown around for mods.

I never wanted it as a mod, and I can understand your frustration with your post, but I very much protest the validity of your claim. You are here to give writing advice to the player base. Of course your average person is going to get upset about it. They think they are infallible and dislike being told otherwise. Being a teacher requires patience, and if the student refuses to learn, well, perhaps someone could PM them and tell them what the site is truly for.

I thank you for your contributions to the community Matt, you've shown a lot more balls than I had in the same post, but I know the stresses of said post. I don't think this is the correct way to do things.

[Max Dirks]

By the very concept of volunteering, yes. Its the exact same situation as an internship. You aren't paid for your time, you volunteer it. In return when you go out into the world to get a job they give you a good review and spread good faith about you. You receive NO other benefit for such an act. Even then said benefit does not guarantee you get said job. I understand you feel overworked, but if you do, there is always jumping to my side of the fence, as Serilliant has pointed out.Our property teacher told us to avoid analogies today. I believe I figured out why. Internship and moderators are apples and oranges, Dissinger. When I intern, I do it with the sole intention of a) gaining valuable work experience which will build my resume and b) to create connections. The appropriate analogy would be to a retired soup kitchen volunteer. Need I remind you that we did have the Soup Nazi on Althanas once. I never want to see those days again.

[Lavinian Ambition]

Our property teacher told us to avoid analogies today. I believe I figured out why. Internship and moderators are apples and oranges, Dissinger. When I intern, I do it with the sole intention of a) gaining valuable work experience which will build my resume and b) to create connections. The appropriate analogy would be to a retired soup kitchen volunteer. Need I remind you that we did have the Soup Nazi on Althanas once. I never want to see those days again.

The point is the same, I already offered the janitor analogy earlier. However, some people glossed over it. The result is the same thing.

Its a shit job. You're going to get griped at if it isn't done in a prudent amount of time. You're going to get bitched at if it doesn't get down how people want it, and in the end its a thankless job.

When you hit submit on the application, no message popped up saying being a mod would net you x, y, and z. All it said was that your application has been submitted. You were NEVER once told to expect anything in return for your service. I accepted those terms. The current mod team looks to change them. I have done each job that was available to the mod force with the exception of Serilliants job, the Region Admins Job and the TD organizer's job.

I can say with a certainty I don't want any kind of repayment for my work, if I ever do hit submit on another mod application.

[Dirge]

All of this talk about "volunteering" is ridiculous. You volunteer to do something that you enjoy. It's clear from this thread and others that some moderators, due to one reason or another, no longer enjoy being moderators. They enjoy writing and helping other writers grow, but they do not enjoy being moderators. They stick with it for you guys. Of course, I can't blame them. Respect for the moderators seems to have declined too.

Personaly, I don’t think it’s ridiculous at all… if the moderators are ‘due to some reason or another, no longer enjoy[ing] being moderators’, quit your position. If you don’t like it, by god don’t do it. I don’t write because I don’t like it, I continue to write because I enjoy it. If and when I stop liking it, I’m going to stop writing… and have in the past.


I would also have to agree with almost everything that was pointed out by Livinian Ambition, having been on both sides of the fence myself.

Personally, my greatest and most amazing thing that I was given in return for my moderatorship was the ability to govern and run Scara Brae. Normal player’s can’t really do that, on that level, and holy shit that was a dream of mine. Also, being able to moderate the influx of people coming in, as an RoG moderator, and allowing people little things here and there (such as 100 exp for a well thought out and actually enjoyable profile).

I think the idea of an exp reward for a job they signed up for without one is somewhat retarded. If you are so worried about the ‘thankless job’ of moderating, you are in it for the wrong reason. I wanted to moderate so that I could offer what I had learned from the people before me to those that were coming after me. I wanted to do it so that I could, in my own way, give back to the community in the way I was given to in the past. I did not need exp for what I did, or gold, or anything extra.

I have to agree that having taken away all the little things from average players, such as the titles and avatar size, and making them exclusive to moderators is already an incentive. If it isn’t, and since the program to gain them is more than anything already null and void, then perhaps you should give them back to the normal players and take that out of the argument.

As well… if I was to join the moderator staff again, which is not likely for another year or so, I would request that I would NOT be granted the little benefits. That’s not the point, and shouldn’t be.

[Cyrus the virus]

If really this wasn't a privilege, then how come the ordinary players don't get this? Sorry Matt, but since those very things are getting treated as a privilege and not a right, then they're going to be seen as such. We all had custom user titles, larger avatars, the only thing Mods got was the bigger PM box, and that was because they might NEED it. Just because they took away the average user privileges, and gave them to mods doesn't mean you can dismiss it out of hand. That was a decision made by Max Dirks and the the other Admins. So, excuse us if we bring them up.

Response: Of course I can dismiss them. If moderators get larger avatars than regular users, I'm not even aware of it, user titles should not be considered a perk by any standard, and we need the PM space. These things aren't even worth discussing in this manner.

By the very concept of volunteering, yes. Its the exact same situation as an internship. You aren't paid for your time, you volunteer it. In return when you go out into the world to get a job they give you a good review and spread good faith about you. You receive NO other benefit for such an act. Even then said benefit does not guarantee you get said job. I understand you feel overworked, but if you do, there is always jumping to my side of the fence, as Serilliant has pointed out.

Response: This is nothing like an internship. I am not going to get a permanent paying job on Althanas that will put me forward in life. It's not even like a Stage for university or college. This is not a soup kitchen, and we only consider it volunteer work because we don't get paid for it in any way. Even then, it's just a convenient word to use because you can make an argument out of it.

And here's the thing Matt, its always been that way. I understood when I took it up. I left for other reasons. I knew going into it I was going into the lions den. As I stated earlier, judgings are one way communication. People don't even think to talk to a mod about getting help. Instead they see the mod as their teacher, and since most of them are high schoolers, they vilify their teachers. The end result is, the judges are vilified and the average user doesn't think to open lines of communications between the judges. The end result is that judges feel unappreciated, and the average writer feels like their under scrutiny. Thats just the nature of the beast.

Response: I don't care if I don't get a PM thanking me, I don't need that kind of external acknowledgment. What judges need are not to have to deal with people griping about a lower score than someone expected, a spoil not being awarded, etc. Of course you're right about the communication issue, but whose fault is that? We're all pretty vocal about letting people know they can contact us.

Except the 100 bonus exp for a profile can be explained as the fruits of such experience before they truly start their adventure. The gold is the paltry sum they've managed to scrounge up for their adventuring lifestyle. The EXP related to an HQ is running the logistics of a powergroup, and the experience of preforming the upkeep maintanance and security of said HQ. Tournament EXP bonus, yes, we can do without. How about we give away unique magical items, or even rarer metal ones. I'd love to see a tournament where an adamantine weapon is offer, rather than enough exp to level most people who enter the tournament.

Response: The extra EXP that appears is from the stuff Luc does in his spare time that I don't write about, same as how he learns spells from tomes he collects, yet I don't write about how he reads them because that's goddamn boring.

If I do my job, and someone walks up to me and gives me a free food coupon for the arcade across the street, every time I met a certain criteria I'd wonder what was up. The fact that something unrelated and should be fun for me is being offered for doing my job seems off. Sorry, I just dislike the idea of experience being thrown around for mods.

Response: This is not my job. I work in a restaurant and at my university. This is something I do as a service for a website I care about. If I help out a good friend of mine, even an extremely close friend of mine, they may pay me back with lunch (though I volunteered my time for them). Hell, I sure as heck wouldn't have to put up a bit fuss about it.

I never wanted it as a mod, and I can understand your frustration with your post, but I very much protest the validity of your claim. You are here to give writing advice to the player base. Of course your average person is going to get upset about it. They think they are infallible and dislike being told otherwise. Being a teacher requires patience, and if the student refuses to learn, well, perhaps someone could PM them and tell them what the site is truly for.

Response: Teachers get paid.

Dirge: Ever wonder why moderators come and go as often as they do? Judging threads can be very fun, but it can also be incredibly not fun, and it gets very monotonous to read and score quests when your only incentive is to help somebody else out. We shouldn't have to cycle capable, skilled moderators out of the system for new staff without even trying to make the judging experience more enjoyable.

[Dirge]

I don't know why this argument keeps coming up... if it's not enjoyable, and you want something from it, it's no longer something you should be doing... Hence the word VOLUNTEER.

As I said in a conversation with Christoph:

TheTaskmienster (2:28:49 AM): Ok, in real life... I volunteered for two years as a soccer coach for two different teams... I spent 200+ hours of community service for the teams, and what did I get for it?
TheTaskmienster (2:28:55 AM): The satisfaction of doing it
Oberst Christoph (2:29:13 AM): They never fed you?
TheTaskmienster (2:29:15 AM): No
Oberst Christoph (2:29:24 AM): Jeeze, they suck.
Oberst Christoph (2:29:33 AM): At least you got to watch all the games for free.
TheTaskmienster (2:29:51 AM): Food? I showed up 30 mins early, got the practice set up, ran it with the kids for 2 hours, and then broke it down for 30 mins, every day, for two different teams, for two years
TheTaskmienster (2:30:08 AM): The teams played on public fields, a bum could watch for free
TheTaskmienster (2:30:09 AM): lol
Oberst Christoph (2:30:30 AM): Yeah... but I don't think it's fair to hold the staff to that starndard.
TheTaskmienster (2:30:38 AM): Why not? It's volunteer.
TheTaskmienster (2:30:58 AM): I didn't expect to get anything, and didn't... it didn't make me not want to do it the next season, or the two seasons in teh next year
Oberst Christoph (2:31:55 AM): It's for the sake of fairness. You clearly were not rewarded fairly for your coaching work.
TheTaskmienster (2:32:41 AM): I was. I got to play soccer with 5-7 year olds, it was fun as hell. And I got to teach it to 11-13 year olds who in turn would continue on to either quit the game, or turn around and do the same
TheTaskmienster (2:32:54 AM): same with writing
TheTaskmienster (2:33:32 AM): the mods are there to teach and help.. When they are done they have to assume that either the writer is going to continue on and quit sometime in the future, or turn around and do the same for their community as their coach did for them.

[Lavinian Ambition]

Response: Of course I can dismiss them. If moderators get larger avatars than regular users, I'm not even aware of it, user titles should not be considered a perk by any standard, and we need the PM space. These things aren't even worth discussing in this manner.

Then I'm sorry you feel that way. But until they're common place again they're seen as privileges. Driving is a privilege and it can be taken away, but since you hardly notice who can and can't drive its not worth talking about it as if it was a privilege? Thats a rather slippery slope. You may WISH to dismiss it, but its not going to get swept under the rug just because its "not worth talking about in this manner."

Response: This is nothing like an internship. I am not going to get a permanent paying job on Althanas that will put me forward in life. It's not even like a Stage for university or college. This is not a soup kitchen, and we only consider it volunteer work because we don't get paid for it in any way. Even then, it's just a convenient word to use because you can make an argument out of it.

So if its not volunteer work what is it? A job? A hobby? You volunteer your time to help organize and direct a website. Thats volunteer work. You may not get a tax write off for it, but its a volunteer position.

Response: I don't care if I don't get a PM thanking me, I don't need that kind of external acknowledgment. What judges need are not to have to deal with people griping about a lower score than someone expected, a spoil not being awarded, etc. Of course you're right about the communication issue, but whose fault is that? We're all pretty vocal about letting people know they can contact us.


The job is too thankless, that's the thing.

Matt, perhaps you should rephrase your previous arguement. If you think a job is too thankless, you're asking for thanks. Just because they gripe is not our fault, and not a basis to ask for more. Griping happens, thats the way of the world.

Response: The extra EXP that appears is from the stuff Luc does in his spare time that I don't write about, same as how he learns spells from tomes he collects, yet I don't write about how he reads them because that's goddamn boring.

Except the work you do has NOTHING to do with your character. Writing a profile, working with your PG, going to the bazaar, participating in a tournament. They involve you using your character. Judging does not, its you doing your job.

Response: This is not my job. I work in a restaurant and at my university. This is something I do as a service for a website I care about. If I help out a good friend of mine, even an extremely close friend of mine, they may pay me back with lunch (though I volunteered my time for them). Hell, I sure as heck wouldn't have to put up a bit fuss about it.

Okay, so if I go with your analogy you're helping your friend with something out of the goodness of your heart, and are now asking for that lunch. Thats essentially what you're saying here Matt.

Response: Teachers get paid.

Sunday School Teachers don't. Some forms of Tutors do not. There are plenty of jobs where you teach people and get no repayment for. If you wish to present blanket statements I can just as easily prove them false. The point is you volunteered to help. You may wish to skirt the issue calling it ridiculous to use wordplay, but how do you define it without saying volunteer? Help? Help implies no need for repayment, otherwise it would be work. I understand your frustration Matt, but the position was never that glorious to begin with. Thats the unfortuante truth. And the fact that the mods argue amongst themselves more often than not is not helping either.

The view of mods is bad, because the mods themselves complain about their work. Who can respect a job that turns even the most spunky and cheerful person into a depressed stressed out time bomb? Perhaps the problem isn't just this side of the fence bitching about your side.

Perhaps some of this was self generated.

[Dirge]

The extra EXP that appears is from the stuff Luc does in his spare time that I don't write about, same as how he learns spells from tomes he collects, yet I don't write about how he reads them because that's goddamn boring.

Why not award everyone something then? That's as horrible an argument as any I've seen... Honestly, EVERY character does something between threads... why not award everyone an small exp amount per day they sign onto the boards and read over threads like this? Or the people that contribute to the OOC boards and give other people something to talk about?

They make the board just as much fun... granted it's not as hard, but at the same time, it's asking nothing less than what you just asked.

[Cyrus the virus]

I like that you switch between calling it 'volunteer work' and a 'job' when it suits your argument. It's 'volunteer work' when I want something for it, and a 'job' any other time, I guess. Beyond that I think most of your argument is weak, but I'm just not the person to refute it. If you don't see the situation for what it is, I'm not going to convince you.

Let's stop assuming this shit is volunteer work. Better yet, how about I play word games, also?

Here's a definition of job! "Anything a person is expected or obliged to do; duty; responsibility." It is my duty as a moderator to judge threads. As a result, I should clearly be paid, as people get paid for their jobs.

Can we cut the fucking wordplay already?


Why not award everyone something then? That's as horrible an argument as any I've seen... Honestly, EVERY character does something between threads... why not award everyone an small exp amount per day they sign onto the boards and read over threads like this? Or the people that contribute to the OOC boards and give other people something to talk about?

You clearly ignored what I was trying to respond to.

Admin Edit: Please do not double post

[Dirge]

Here's a definition of job! "Anything a person is expected or obliged to do; duty; responsibility." It is my duty as a moderator to judge threads. As a result, I should clearly be paid, as people get paid for their jobs.

Can we cut the fucking wordplay already?

Expected or Obliged... you aren't expected to BECOME a moderator though, that's something you did of your own volition. Once a moderator, yes... it becomes what's expected. But you chose that position, it wasn't forced on you, and you didn't chose it originally expecting that you would be rewarded for it.

[Cyrus the virus]

I don't see why joining the mod staff as a judge means the system can't be changed. Some of us are unsatisfied with the way things work, so we're seeing if a compromise can be found. I'd do the same thing at my work or my school.

[Dirge]

But at work, you are getting paid, you did it because you were getting paid. At school you are getting your education, it's voluntary... you don't have to go to school if you don't want to... and your reward for doing so is your education.

As I said before, I volunteered for soccer coach because I wanted to do it... it was rewarding because I had fun doing it. If you don't have fun, and are 'unsatisfied' with what your doing, don't do it. It's really that simple.

[Cyrus the virus]

That really has nothing to do with the desire for change in this situation. The position is unrewarding considering the demand it presents, and that needs to change if we want to stop making threads in the mod forum that say "We need more/new judges" every few months.

[Dirge]

You brought it up, not me. If it has nothing to do related to this thread and the discussion, why bring it into the thread?

And the reward is doing something for the community of Althanas. If you do not want to give to the community in that fashion, then do not do it, go back to writing and being a normal member like the rest of us. We contribute by posting, keeping the place alive, and having fun. When I was a mod I contributed by doing what the mods do, judging threads and approving people in the RoG. I did not expect thanks, but when I got it I was happy. That was all I needed. It wasn't because I was being rewarded that I did my job, or because of it that I joined the staff.

It was because it was what I ENJOYED doing for the community. If I hadn't enjoyed it, I would have stopped. In the end I did, and not because I didn't get anything for it... the thought never even crossed my mind. I ended up quitting my position because the other moderators and administrators drove me to dislike what I was apart of, not what I was doing while apart of it...


ANYWAY, I'm off to bed... someone else can take up my position against the rather easily contested arguments for the proposal... lol. I've been arguing on here, and through IM for at least an hour or more.

[Jasmine]

The problem with OOC rewards for moderator work is that there really aren't any such rewards that are particularly great.

Then make some suggestions that would be great. Things that you, as a moderator, would want or could use.


A small EXP reward is the only compensation that's really worth anything. I honestly don't see what's so horribly unfair about it. It won't give the moderators any kind of advantage over regular players. If anything, it might make more people willing to give the whole staff thing a shot.

If EXP is the only compensation worth anything to you, then why are you judging? Even a little bit of EXP can build up very quickly. At 150 EXP per thread judged, in just 7 threads you’d have 1,000+ EXP. So, yes, it is very unfair to award EXP for judging. Also, if people are wanting to join staff just so they can get more EXP, then their joining for the wrong reasons.


All of this talk about "volunteering" is ridiculous. You volunteer to do something that you enjoy. It's clear from this thread and others that some moderators, due to one reason or another, no longer enjoy being moderators. They enjoy writing and helping other writers grow, but they do not enjoy being moderators. They stick with it for you guys.

As it has been said before, if a mod no longer enjoys their work, then they should take a break until such time that they feel they can return to it and enjoy it, if that time comes. If it does not, fine, but continuing on for the sake of others is not really such a great idea. All you do is wind up thinking more about how thankless what you’re doing is and wind up more miserable.


Are people suggesting that volunteers shouldn't be paid if the resources to pay them are readily available?

YES! Volunteers are not paid, no matter what the resources available are. If they were paid, then they are no longer volunteers, but workers.


Several judges are very unsatisfied with the amount of work they put into the job, considering that all they get in return is flack.

I think I shall be blunt too... welcome to the world of critiquing! NO ONE likes to be told that they didn’t do as good of a job as they thought they did, including myself. You’re not going to be able to avoid flack as a judge. It’s just impossible. The key is to take the bad with the good, and try not to let it bother you so much. Ask yourself, “Why did I start judging in the first place?” And then ask yourself “Why don’t I like it anymore?” If the answer to question 2 is that “I’m not getting enough thanks”, then I really think you’re in it for the wrong reasons.


Show me an example of contempt.

I can give you an example. It’s not in a judging, but it is in a mod’s behavior toward me. I still have the PM’s I sent to the mod in question (whom I WILL NOT name here, so don’t ask. If you really want to know Cy, then PM me or catch me on AIM) and the mod’s response.


What in the hell am I going to do with store space, a bigger avatar, or some other garbage?

If they’re not a special mod privilege, then give them back to the regular members. Otherwise, like Pat said, they will continue to be seen as such by the rest of us.


What judges need are not to have to deal with people griping about a lower score than someone expected, a spoil not being awarded, etc.

So what you’re saying is that if we didn’t get what we thought we deserved, we should just shut up and take it as it came? Again, welcome to the world of critiquing. When people don’t get what they believe they deserve, they gripe. Get over it.


Response: Teachers get paid.

I’ve been teaching for at least 6 years now in my church. You know what the most I’ve ever gotten was? Flowers and/or a devotional on teacher appreciation day. Do I complain? No, because I love my work. Hearing their parents tell me, “Little Johnny was so excited about your class! He kept asking me when he was going to church,” thrills me and is all I need to be able to keep going even when I’ve had only 1 student for the last 4 weeks.

In mostly the same way, the mods here are here on a volunteer basis, just like my teaching. Yes, it’s pretty much thankless. Yes, it’s hard and very trying at times. But why did you start in the first place? To help others, correct? If knowing that you’re helping others isn’t enough for you anymore, then again I say you need to rethink your motives for being a judge.



Quote:
The extra EXP that appears is from the stuff Luc does in his spare time that I don't write about, same as how he learns spells from tomes he collects, yet I don't write about how he reads them because that's goddamn boring.

Why not award everyone something then? That's as horrible an argument as any I've seen... Honestly, EVERY character does something between threads... why not award everyone an small exp amount per day they sign onto the boards and read over threads like this? Or the people that contribute to the OOC boards and give other people something to talk about?

They make the board just as much fun... granted it's not as hard, but at the same time, it's asking nothing less than what you just asked.

Agreed. And since he, according to you, Cyrus, “clearly ignored” what you were trying to respond to, I guess I missed it, too. Would you mind reiterating it? Perhaps then we’ll get it.

[Christoph]

A lot of emotions are getting involved with this issue, and that concerns me. I understand that we can all get passionate about issues, but let’s keep a lid on excess emotions. While I can see logic on both sides of this argument, it seems to me that those against it are fearfully clinging to status quo because of the arbitrary label of “volunteer.” Before I choose to present my argument, allow me to point out that the one who brought this issue up in the first place, Dirks, is not a mod and won’t benefit from this. I am a mod, but if I may be frank, I don’t judge enough to benefit from this, either. Therefore, this popular image of a bunch of fat-cat elites demanding more privilege isn’t accurate. That said, there’s no reason that a reasonable, logical compromise can’t be reached.

Now, I choose to present a different angle of argument to this issue. “Why not?” Firstly, whom would it hurt? Will the players be harmed in any way? I think not, and I challenge anyone to show me otherwise. They will receive just as much EXP as they always did and their roleplaying experience would not change for the worse. The mod force certainly wouldn’t be hurt. They’d receive a small compensation for their time and efforts -- something more substantial than larger avatars and user titles, which are both worthless when you get down to it. It wouldn’t be enough to cause any of this feared corruption. And honestly, if it did, what would it do, corrupt them into being more active and doing a better job?

Secondly, moderators put in a lot of time and work. No one can argue that. All I’d propose would be a small amount of EXP roughly equal to the average value of two or three posts. This would merely serve to make the relative [time spent on Althanas] / [experience gained] ratio more even between players and mods. They work hard and we have the means the means to compensate them. (Most volunteer work is as such because the agency involved usually doesn’t have the means to pay the volunteers)

I would also propose that moderators should need to have been on staff and accomplished a certain amount of work for the site before they are eligible for said compensation. That way, the only people rewarded are those who truly care about the site and want to make it better. Don’t they deserve it? This isn’t about greed. This isn't about elitism. This is about rewarding those who have shown this site compassion and generosity through their work with some small fraction of that compassion and generosity in return, and making their time truly worthwhile for them. Isn’t that something that we can get behind?

[Slayer of the Rot]

I would also propose that moderators should need to have been on staff and accomplished a certain amount of work for the site before they are eligible for said compensation. That way, the only people rewarded are those who truly care about the site and want to make it better. Don’t they deserve it? This isn’t about greed. This isn't about elitism. This is about rewarding those who have shown this site compassion and generosity through their work with some small fraction of that compassion and generosity in return, and making their time truly worthwhile for them. Isn’t that something that we can get behind?

That's a pretty reasonable suggestion. I like it.

Personally, when this started, I was in between. I didn't really care. If a system was implemented, I would enjoy it, if it wasn't, oh well. However, a select few of you have built yourself up into towering nerd rages over something so simple and foolish about experience on an internet play by post board and it's just ridiculous.

Knock it off. Stop arguing like children and offer some suggestions that give some progress like Christoph just did.

[Nirov]

Compensation for the moderator staff is completely ridiculous. The cycle of moderators joining, judging, and quitting has been going on since time began on Althanas.

"But it's a terrible thing," you say. Well, I argue it is not.

The staff is, and I'm not saying this just to throw shit on the flame, a totalitarian government. There is no real democracy on Althanas, as the ruling class votes to replace or add members. The true power of Althanas lies in the triumvirate of Madison, Serilliant, and Ashiakin.

Moderators get tired, they quit, and new people replace them. It's a needed cycle so the staff doesn't get stagnant with the same people for years on end. Even the admins have changed over time, and Althanas is better for it because they offer new ideas. The sickness judges feel is completely natural and a way to trim the edges and allow for regrowth.

I was on the staff, I know I quit twice because I couldn't handle some of the same aspects. But fuck if I'd ever accept an IC reward for an OOC service. If we give into this, we're back to selling pictures for IC gold and giving hand jobs to Serilliant for EXP.

I'd be much more willing to support the idea of giving IC rewards to moderators if their tenure on the staff was affected by the democratic process of the people. I still wouldn't accept it, but it'd be easier to swallow than to have a government with a hidden bunker somewhere plotting the outcome of Althanas.

[Call me J]

Personally, I think a formal compensation package is unseemly, especially when current staffers are lobbying for it. That said, if we're going to have to have a compensation package, there are many ways moderators can be compensated that do not damage the credibility of the EXP system. Perhaps a separate judging queue can be made for moderator threads to allow them slightly more prompt judgments (of course, a mod would have to complete a judgment to submit something into this queue), or changes in the forum structure can be made so that moderators have a greater say in forum policy after spending a certain time on staff.

Personally, I don't really see the need for benefits, so it may be difficult for me to come up with things that others might want to do what I've been doing for free, but I'm sure there are ooc options available.

[Doomsday]

The problem with EXP rewards is that EXP should be more of a sign of IC progress than a reward. I know it is a reward but it's meant to show growth and EXP gained through OOC activities could make the growth unnatural for the character. Imagine having a level 1 go from being an apprentice mage that throws weak little fireballs to an archmage that summons the god of dragons. Guess that's a bit of hyperbole but still exp just isn't a good reward for judging since Judges have to enjoy their work even if it isn't rewarded. Judging is tough and can be hard and it can be thankless but there is something to be enjoyed to helping someone get better. Good judges are what make Althanas great, they make the writers get better and even their mere presence makes people work harder for Althanas than they ever would for any other RP site or game. They make people want to tell stories for others to read and they help those people get better. While I would like to see them rewarded for their work but in reality it should be enough to know that you are key to what makes Althanas the place you want to be at and no exp, gold, flashy title is going to do that. If you don't enjoy that then maybe being a judge isn't right for you.

[Max Dirks]

I'll begin with a response to Slayer:
Knock it off. Stop arguing like children and offer some suggestions that give some progress like Christoph just did.I'm not entirely sure "progress" is applicable to the thread. The argument does not seem to be centered on policy (i.e. how the system will be implemented). The argument appears to be over principle (i.e. if the system should be implemented). One invites more compromise and progress than the other.

It's a shit job. You're going to get griped at if it isn't done in a prudent amount of time. You're going to get bitched at if it doesn't get down how people want it, and in the end its a thankless job.It never used to be a shit job. It was respected and revered. There is a vicious circle at play here. Lack of respect has led to moderator apathy. We can leave things the way they are or we can change them. One makes Althanas much better.

YES! Volunteers are not paid, no matter what the resources available are. If they were paid, then they are no longer volunteers, but workers. Well said, Jasmine. I like the vocabulary you used. Put simply, the proposal is to turn Althanas moderators into workers, not to start paying volunteers. That's why the volunteer argument is ridiculous and inappropriate for the topic.

The problem with EXP rewards is that EXP should be more of a sign of IC progress than a rewardI have alot to say on this, but limited time so I will return to this point later. EXP fundamentally is a measurement of your participation with the site. In battles, character skills mean little in determining the winner. We judge based on the better writer, not the stronger character. Abilities do not seem to be as limited in quests either. I've had Dirks take down dragons, and Lorenor has dropped meteors on Salvar. Points lost? None.

[Zephyriah]

To me, here is the reward of being a judge (since I was one).

Too much backlog? Well then you have the ability to actually do something about it rather than sitting down and twiddling your thumbs as you wait for someone to claim it (like the regular players). There have been a lot of judges over the years that have dragged their feet either out of laziness or because the backlog was too great. Being a judge, you have control over all of that thus making Althanas a better experience for all parties concerned.

So as far as EXP compensation goes, it's not necessary for me. Having judges that don't mind judging no matter the circumstances though, IS necessary for me. If there are this many disgruntle judges then pass me the baton and I'll pick this thing back up in a heartbeat.

[Karuka]

Well said, Jasmine. I like the vocabulary you used. Put simply, the proposal is to turn Althanas moderators into workers, not to start paying volunteers. That's why the volunteer argument is ridiculous and inappropriate for the topic.

I'd like to point out that we're already workers. Forget how much I've done, since I'm leaving staff as soon as this month's vignette contest is done precisely because I've started to hate not the job, but the whiners who make my job loathesome and tiring.

But look at someone like Shyam, who judges at breakneck speed, writes about a thousand posts a day, and still somehow gets his work done. Or someone like Serilliant, without whom Althanas would have run into a coding bump ages ago and never recovered. These people are workers without pay. I would go so far as to say "slaves," but since they're technically free to go, I'd say what they are is closer to Serfs for their lord Althanas and its whiny population. And it's draining on them. Serilliant, I hear, used to play and judge. Shyam has been on and off the staff three times in the year that I've been here.

People like, say, Christoph, who by his own admission doesn't do much, would go better under the "volunteer" category. They help out here and there, but if they have posts to make or a thread to judge, they'll make their posts even if they really like the person they're judging for. The volunteers have a lower rate of burnout than the workers up there.

Jasmine, you say that teaching Sunday School for children is a thankless job, but I've worked nursery and Children's Church, and while I know it gets messy and troublesome, you also get the times when a little kid will come up and give you a hug. Stay with those kids long enough, and they love you and have fond memories of you, and you of them. I remember doing VBS one year, and I thought it was hard, thankless work, but on the last day I got about a hundred hugs, and it was all worth it.

The mod staff does not get such appreciation to make the job worth it. Writers have a "me first" mentality that whines when a thread takes "too long" to judge (no, not you first. We're doing you a big favor, after all, by reading your stuff, commenting on it, carefully assigning a number, and then calculating the points you get from it), a "me best" mentality that says they're awesome even when they're not (and really, there are only like 3-4 players on this site that are truly awesome, with maybe a further 10 that are awesome on their good days when they put forth effort), and a "you suck" mentality toward any mod that says otherwise and then won't answer all of their questions right that second because they have other, IRL things that are important for them to do. (No, and if you want to take that attitude, you know your mama's phone number.)

We have larger PM boxes so that we can organize events with other mods, take the crap we take from players, and be generally lazy about clearing out our PM boxes. We can change our usernames, but that's a vestige of an ability everyone else used to have, ad there are still some players (who have contributed to the site) that retain that privilege. We still have the 130x130 pixel avatar. Yay. It's not really that much bigger. And we can see The Pit, which, contrary to what Nirov says, is not all that great. It's got some Spam threads and some arguments that are pretty much headaches to read in perspective, and were headaches to read when they started.

And we get to spend our time to read other people's work/profiles/generally service all needs, physical, mental, emotional, sexual, egomatic of said whiny populace, which, in order of frequency, is "Tolerable," "ghkk..." "Disturbance in the Force" "Good" "Great" and "Oh, wow." That's the truth.

To date, I've received thanks from only five people, one of whom was a fellow mod, after I'd judged two of his things consecutively. It felt good. But to balance that out, I've wound up burning myself out trying to keep up with the flood of threads from a bunch of ingrates. That feels pretty sucktastic. Especially since most of us on this site consider ourselves to be adults.

In principle, I do feel that this should be a job where the mods are happy to work without compensation, where everyone does their job to the best of their abilities, and everyone is happy all the time.

In principle, Communism works.

Since Communism doesn't work, I think it would be just and right for there to be a system in place to reward the people on this site who contribute above and beyond writing mediocre tales of battles and dragons and zombies and sex to let them know that their work is appreciated.

[Serilliant]

I am seeing a troubling trend emerging from this thread. I understand that being on staff is sometimes time-consuming and annoying, but the level of discontent, angst, and outright anger being expressed from current moderators is astounding.

Karuka above refers to me as an enslaved "Serf", unable to do what I really want on the site. I find this metaphor incredibly off, as what I currently get to do on Althanas is exactly what I want to be doing. I stopped writing not because 'oh woe is me I don't have time anymore', but because I enjoy administering and have divided my time accordingly.

Even worse, it's suggested that I'm enslaved by a so-called "whiney population". Maybe I've been doing something different than the rest of you, but I have yet to have anyone whine or complain to me, even back when I was a judge. Perhaps people tended to treat me with the same dignity and respect I always made sure to give to them.

If there is a problem with moderator discontent as has been suggested, then Dirks offers a solution: reward the moderators with experience points. I argue that this is not the only solution. Here's another one:

Quit.

I made this point in the previous thread, and I think it warrants repeating. Being a moderator is supposed to be rewarding in and of itself. I gain a great amount of self-satisfaction for the work that I do here. If you don't, and if you are growing more and more dissatisfied with your volunteer position, stop being a drain on the staff and quit.

Offering experience points is not going to be a magical panacea that makes angsty staff members whistle while they work.

There are a few sentiments made in this thread that bear repeating. Jasmine said: "By definition, a volunteer is someone who performs a service without pay because they want to do it." Doomsday said: "To be a mod you have to love your work." And finally, Dirge said: "If the moderators are 'due to some reason or another, no longer enjoy[ing] being moderators', quit your position. If you don’t like it, by god don't do it. I don't write because I don't like it, I continue to write because I enjoy it."

The only people who should be on staff are those that enjoy being on staff. If you don't, get off and let someone else on who wants a ride.

I'll close by saying that if there's another emotional flare-up as happened earlier in this thread, not only will this discussion be locked, but the offending parties reprimanded. If you can't be mature in this discussion, you don't deserve to be a part of it.

[Letho]

^

What he said pretty much covers my thoughts as well.

[Sorahn]

EDIT: Serilliant makes a great point about actually caring about what you do, which basically renders my entire essay below totally invalid. However I'm of the belief that there aren't very many who want to be a mod simply because of the satisfaction it brings. The reason I believe this is it seems like every week the admins are calling for people to apply to be a mod, to the point of sounding like begging. So bottom line is I respect and admire the people who are mods because they love being mods, but I don't think there are enough of you. So that being said, on to my original post:



I think people are missing the basic problem here. The purpose of the thread was not to argue over whether or not mods are volunteers or workers. It boils down to this:

Althanas needs moderators to judge things.

Being a moderator sucks balls.

How can we make being a moderator suck less balls in order to keep more talented people on staff and motivate them to produce better quality work at a higher frequency?

That's all! Everyone in this thread is getting into high and mighty moral debates over whether or not the mods deserve compensation or whether or not it would be detrimental to the current balance.

Let me put it this way: A while back I was a mod (believe it or not). I worked the bazaar and for a while I was the sole bazaar mod. I eventually stopped. Why did I stop?

More importantly, I have no desire to be a mod again. Make me want to.

If moderators liked their jobs and people liked being moderators then we would have more applications and the admins could be more selective in who became a mod as well as increase the number of mods, resulting in higher quality judgments and better response times, which is what everyone in here seems to want.

Now, having properly defined the problem, I offer my solution:

I personally think WAY too much emphasis is placed on judging anyways. Yes, Althanas is a creative writing forum meant to help you improve your writing, but beneath that at its very core, it is a game. There wouldn't be a single person on this site if RPing wasn't fun. We all have language and literature classes to tell us how to write and correct our grammar. We come to Althanas because can express ourselves and generally loosen up and have some fun writing. But instead, since everything must be judged, it becomes a competition. People write things desperately trying to get a high score and for what? To wave in others' faces? But in this desperation to get a high score players become angry when their work doesn't get them the "rank" they thought it deserved. Along with this, the sense of what CONSTRUCTIVE criticism actually means is totally lost.

I will admit that I have seen a few judgments that were a bit overly harsh (Wolftrappe once said "you said that? ... please!" in one of my judgments), but on the whole judgments are meant to improve the player's writing and generally accomplish this goal. The problem arises when it is stopped being viewed as such, and instead is viewed as an attack on ones writing ability. This is when the nasty PMs start, filled with whiny crap that generally makes mods not want to be a mod.

So... my solution? Make judging optional. Give players the option to simply have their thread evaluated for how much exp and gp they get and that's all. I know I've made plenty of threads where this is all I wanted.

"But Sorahn! That encourages crappy threads!" Yes it does. And the people who were involved had fun writing it. Deal with it. If it sucks they still will get lower exp amounts.

I realize this is theoretically already possible. All I have to do is state in my judgment request that I would like it as such. But it's definitely not emphasized enough if it is possible. The fact that I'm not sure if it is possible or not means it's not being emphasized enough.

The end result: Less work for the judges, but more importantly a greater feeling of the PRIVILEGE that judgments really are. You are ASKING someone to critique your work. Much in the same way you would write a report for school and ask one of your friends to look over it for you. If you don't want to, you don't have to. This enables mods to respond to every single gripe in their judgments with "If you don't like the judgment, don't get it judged."

Sure there are many flaws in this system. For one, people are still going to gripe about their judgments, regardless of what you do. And there will be many who won't use this at all. All I'm trying to do is change public perception if what judging really MEANS.

Plus, at least I offered a solution instead of getting bitter and arguing about what it means to be a mod and other pointless, annoying, and unhelpful topics.

As to the solution presented in the introduction of this thread, I would have no problem with mods getting exp, gp, or whatever for their time. They deserve it, and hopefully won't hate their jobs as much.

[Call me J]

So... my solution? Make judging optional. Give players the option to simply have their thread evaluated for how much exp and gp they get and that's all. I know I've made plenty of threads where this is all I wanted.

"But Sorahn! That encourages crappy threads!" Yes it does. And the people who were involved had fun writing it. Deal with it. If it sucks they still will get lower exp amounts.

I actually really like this idea. A mod can spend 15-20 minutes just browsing over the thread to get a general idea of quality and assign some EXP based on it that would probably generally resemble the EXP that someone would get from a full judging. Honestly, sometimes I feel guilty about taking threads I wrote exclusively for fun and asking mods to read every word of it, but its the only way to get EXP.

The only conditions I would have to make sure this system was implemented effectively would be as follows.

A) Only judged threads get in the Judges Choice forum. If a mod reads enough of a thread to think it may be JC quality and it was submitted for EXP only, they can contact the players and see if they'd like it judged.

B) Moderators still have the option of giving tips if they want to. In some cases, if I notice something that I know a person would want corrected, I would want them to correct this.

Serilliant really captured everything I would have wanted to say earlier, so I'm glad he said it. Also, I would like to add that, in my opinion, my moderating job has not been thankless. It hasn't always been fun, but I consider it an honor and a privilege to have judged so many of your threads and to have had even a few people grateful for the help I receive. Every time someone moves up in scores, I get the thanks I need.

[Max Dirks]

I made this point in the previous thread, and I think it warrants repeating. Being a moderator is supposed to be rewarding in and of itself. I gain a great amount of self-satisfaction for the work that I do here. If you don't, and if you are growing more and more dissatisfied with your volunteer position, stop being a drain on the staff and quit.This argument is starting to bug me too. There is a vicious circle at play, Serilliant. If you want passionate players to be moderators, stop hiring people who: a) put no effort into their moderator application b) openly admit to feeling obligated to be on staff because they are good writers, have been on Althanas for years, and want to help battle a backlog c) openly admit to being coerced into applying for staff by another member including moderators and d) quit rehiring moderators who left because they couldn't handle being "enslaved." Hire people who care about the site and love to help other writers grow. Reward them for their hard work, and you will never, ever, have this problem again.

I realize this argument is tailored toward Serilliant, though I'm pretty sure he isn't in charge of hiring/firing. "You," in this context can refer to Letho, Findelfin, or the moderating staff as a whole when they argue in favor or against applicants.

[Dirge]

So as far as EXP compensation goes, it's not necessary for me. Having judges that don't mind judging no matter the circumstances though, IS necessary for me. If there are this many disgruntle judges then pass me the baton and I'll pick this thing back up in a heartbeat.

I agree completely, if for whatever reason you have lost the will to be a moderator and do not agree with doing this for the simple love of the moderator position, then I will willingly come back and take my old position… or just a judging position, and would not worry in the slightest about getting a reward.


Perhaps people tended to treat me with the same dignity and respect I always made sure to give to them.

Personally, I never had/have an issue with ANY of the older vets… I’ve been on Althans for 5 years, and in my time the nicest people that offered me respect in their judgments as well as OOC chat. That alone made me more amiable towards them, because they loved their job and showed it through their OOC notes and chat. Not saying that I don’t feel that way towards the people that haven’t been on as long as I have, such as Letho or others, but for the vast majority of those I truly respect and enjoy judging my threads… I would chose any of the vets: Thoracis, Ashaikin, Serilliant, Santh, Findelfin (AND DIRKS! lol)… ect…


And I read over what Sorahn proposed, and absolutely adore it. Personally the only reason I throw my threads up for judgment is because of the exp necessary to advance the character. If submitting a thread could be looked over, given a general idea for a judgment number (or even throwing up number on a word document for good measure) and then giving an amount of experience equivalent to what the number score would have been.

I would request that more than anything…

[Atzar]

It wasn't really the whining that pushed me over the top. It was the fact that I had no balance. Back when I judged, I was on the site to judge. I couldn't write, because there was always the next judgement in the queue. It killed my motivation.

I don't think I really ever had a huge problem with the whining - it was annoying when it happened, but it wasn't a driving reason for my departure. In the end, I badly wanted to make the site a better place. I bitched about taking the reins for the Althanaversary, and I bitched about being the only one that actively judged for awhile, but I had no legitimate complaint: I was doing what I wanted to do.

The thing that got me was the fact that I also wanted to write. I didn't have the energy to do both. I could judge, or I could write. Not both. I was happy that I was helping Althanas, but I was bitter because it left me no desire to do what I had joined this site to do: write. The bitterness then killed my desire to help out the community, so I faded to the background for several months, doing neither.

Perhaps that was where my irritation at the members here started. I was helping the site, but it was expected. "Don't volunteer for it if you don't want to do it." I want to help, that's why I volunteered. But it's still a sacrifice on my part. Being a mod means that I largely won't be a writer.

I'm not really sure why I'm writing this. I guess I kinda disagree with the direction that this thread turned. It's not about the EXP. EXP is a hollow representation of what I really want to do here. It would be nice for a month, and you'd probably see a spike in judgements for a month, but then judge activity would sag again when people noticed that it wasn't the problem in the first place.

There's kinda some advice for prospective mods in here. Which would you rather do? Do you want to judge, or write? If you want to judge more, then apply. If you want to write more, then keep doing what you're doing.

[Lavinian Ambition]

This argument is starting to bug me too. There is a vicious circle at play, Serilliant. If you want passionate players to be moderators, stop hiring people who: a) put no effort into their moderator application b) openly admit to feeling obligated to be on staff because they are good writers, have been on Althanas for years, and want to help battle a backlog c) openly admit to being coerced into applying for staff by another member including moderators and d) quit rehiring moderators who left because they couldn't handle being "enslaved." Hire people who care about the site and love to help other writers grow. Reward them for their hard work, and you will never, ever, have this problem again.

I realize this argument is tailored toward Serilliant, though I'm pretty sure he isn't in charge of hiring/firing. "You," in this context can refer to Letho, Findelfin, or the moderating staff as a whole when they argue in favor or against applicants.

Dirks, I said it once I'll say it again. Moderators complaining about their job has diminished the stature of said job. The old mods never complained publicly, they'd complain in the mod forums or only to each other, but held a unified front against the players. Nowadays the newer mods come out in public and make impassioned pleas such as this expecting sympathy. Why have respect for a job that turns the people you call friends in to bitter shadows of themselves?

[Chiroptera]

I personally think WAY too much emphasis is placed on judging anyways. Yes, Althanas is a creative writing forum meant to help you improve your writing, but beneath that at its very core, it is a game. There wouldn't be a single person on this site if RPing wasn't fun. We all have language and literature classes to tell us how to write and correct our grammar. We come to Althanas because can express ourselves and generally loosen up and have some fun writing. But instead, since everything must be judged, it becomes a competition. People write things desperately trying to get a high score and for what? To wave in others' faces? But in this desperation to get a high score players become angry when their work doesn't get them the "rank" they thought it deserved.

Sorahn's suggestion makes perfect sense for a site that oscillates between being a writing community and a gaming community, but it bothers me that EXP has become such a huge focus. I have been on other RPing sites whose emphasis weas totally on the leveling aspect, but my impression of Althanas was that we were writers who gamed rather than gamers who wrote. We write on Althanas for fun, and if people want to obsess over EXP and leveling, they should play WoW because it's a lot more leniant in the literacy department. I thought that writing itself was the point of Althanas, not just a means to the end of a higher level and more renown on the site. To me the best parts of judging are the comments and suggestions that mods offer, that highlight the things I did well and point out things I need to improve-- and not just so that I can get a higher score on my next quest.

If mods want EXP for judging, I say let them have it because they certainly deserve it for all the work they do, but I'm inclined to believe that Atzar is right about it not being as motivational as it seems. I can't put my character's level on my next resume, but I have definitely noticed an improvement in my writing since I joined Althanas, and I have judges' feedback to thank for a large part of that. I really hope that EXP isn't as important to everybody as this thread is making it seem to be.

[Godhand]

In principle, I do feel that this should be a job where the mods are happy to work without compensation, where everyone does their job to the best of their abilities, and everyone is happy all the time.

In principle, Communism works.

Jesus Christ that is the most pathetic fucking faux-dramatic bullshit I've ever read in an OOC debate. Ever.


That really has nothing to do with the desire for change in this situation. The position is unrewarding considering the demand it presents, and that needs to change if we want to stop making threads in the mod forum that say "We need more/new judges" every few months.

A BLOO BLOO BLOO!

OH, A BLOO BLOO BLOO!!!

[Slayer of the Rot]

Godhand; enough. You are helping nothing.

Anyway, back when I was a judge, I stopped writing. If I had a muse, I lost it. If I had some sort of motivation, it simply petered out into nothing. To be honest, it sucked. It wasn't that I wasn't really enjoying my job, and it wasn't that no one was grateful, or anyone complained to me. It was just that all my time went to reading these enormous quests and trying to figure out what everyone had done right or wrong. Eventually, I just sort of quit, but even after, I found myself with little want to write.

So, with experience, I can say it's mainly the judges that are hating their job. I am enjoying being Bazaar staff far more than I was being a judge. A judge will put a lot of thought and effort shuffling through your posts in an attempt to give you advice for what you're weak in; if it wasn't for Shyam's words in some of my judgings, I'd have never gotten to the point I am. For some reason though, there are cases where the judged will complain about their score. "You're wrong. I was perfectly fine here and here and I should have gotten a 73, you jackass." Back when I first started, what you got was what you got. If I got a 39 I accepted it and moved on. I'd follow the advice and grow a little for the experience. I never once got mouthy with a moderator because I respected them for their time on the site and their ability.

NOTE: in b4 Crashthanas.

As far as the problem with judges coming and going, some of you don't seem to understand. You can't just go "Ooh! Ooh! He's leaving? I'll do it then!" For those that put in their applications, the amount of time and consideration put into them should tell you there's something a little more to get on staff than your longevity or writing ability. You should be more worried about the ones leaving than replacing them. What we have at the moment is a number of skilled, seasoned, and very stressed staff members.

I am not saying the mods need rewards, but I am saying something needs to be done.

[Godhand]

Godhand; enough. You are helping nothing.

This comment works best if you imagine like an old man interrupting his grandson during a meeting when he gets confrontational. Like all dramatic and shit. You are helping nothing!

Seriously though, if I had to weigh in on this topic I'd say that if you expect to get anything at all from volunteer work (Cyrus: It's not volunteer work! A bloo bloo bloo) then you basically don't know what volunteer work means and you need to stop being a bitch.

[Caden Law]

I'd say something, but really the only thing worth mentioning at this point is the obvious.

Godhand is the best fucking troll ever. D:

Everything after that statement may be skipped. Easily.

That said, Internet = Serious Business. Speaking as a rank-and-file member, if you guys were going to have it out in a bloodbath arguement over all this, it probably should've been done in a staff-only forum. Just plain looks bad and it's allowing people who aren't, or who don't seem to be staffmembers, to try and get two cents in and bring old grudges into it. For newer members, it just plain looks bad and for senior members, it's more of a showcase of I used to be someone, so shut up and listen to me!

tl;dr most of us aren't on Staff and while we may have an opinion about it, this really comes down to Current Staffers For and Current Staffers Against. So let's all shut up and let the italicized/bolded people rip each other multiple new assholes. Except for Godhand. He should keep trolling. Just because it brings a much-needed bit of amusement to all the e-drama.

[Ashiakin]

I like Sorahn's suggestion and Shyam's amendments to it. I'd support such a policy and I'm sure we'll be talking about it on the mod forum.

While I've always liked the idea of giving mods EXP/GP for their work, I've never seriously considered it happening. Ultimately I don't think it could happen or should happen. If someone could present a plan for compensating the mods that wouldn't piss the players off, I'd consider it. But for now I'm fine with a staff of volunteers. It's not perfect and we can looking at judging reforms such as the stuff mentioned by Sorahn, but I think it works all right.

If y'all want to send me real money, though, that'd be cool.

[Max Dirks]

...if you guys were going to have it out in a bloodbath arguement over all this, it probably should've been done in a staff-only forum. Just plain looks bad and it's allowing people who aren't, or who don't seem to be staffmembers, to try and get two cents in and bring old grudges into it. For newer members, it just plain looks bad and for senior members, it's more of a showcase of I used to be someone, so shut up and listen to me!Caden, I'll just say this because you are ABSOLUTELY wrong. This isn't the first time moderator rewards has been brought up. Before the discussion has been limited exclusively to the moderator forums. The proposal was eventually dropped because the staff felt that the players would not accept the rewards due to them being "unfair." The reason why this thread is public is because it's your (i.e. the player's) time to say whether you'd accept rewards or not. It is not my fault that only current and former moderators have actively participated in the thread. Everyone can chime in and I will happily have a discussion with them.

This is the YOUR WORD forum, you know...

[Serilliant]

Speaking as a rank-and-file member, if you guys were going to have it out in a bloodbath arguement over all this, it probably should've been done in a staff-only forum.

Other than the fact that the thread and entire issue was started by someone who is currently not a staff member, I agree with your sentiment. This entire discussion is on an issue that pertains only to staff. In other words, the typical hierarchy of such a decision would be to get moderator opinion and approval, and then propose it to members to see if there is general agreement.

However, for this discussion, the hierarchy was disrupted. A large amount of the staff disagrees with the proposition of rewards, comments regarding moderator dissatisfaction notwithstanding. According with Max, he wanted to raise the issue with the general Althanas populace in hopes of gaining support for his idea. It is clear to me that the support he expected to exist actually does not. As I result, I have to stand by my original decision and the consensus of Althanas senior staff and determine that no rewards structure will be put into place at this time.

That having been said, I am moved by statements since my last comment, and waver slightly on my "like it or quit" philosophy. As mentioned in the other thread, I will continue to work on ideas to help ease the burden and stress on staff.

Thank you everyone for your comments. I welcome anyone interested in continuing a tangental discussion (e.g. relating to new judging paradigm ideas, etc.) to create a new thread, but please consider the original core idea of experience points for moderators to be a closed issue.

[Sighter Tnailog]

I'm posting over the closed message, just because I can, to say this:


And we get access to The Pit. I'm sorry to disappoint everyone, but it's really nothing extremely exciting.

Just for saying that, Christoph, I will see to it you are never paid for anything. How dare you insult The Pit in my presence! It is the very definition of excitement!