Solo threads and rewards

[HikariAngel]

Much like the title says, I've been thinking about solo quests. More specifically, I've been thinking about the stipulations for a solo versus the rewards. Ten posts or 10,000 words is the minimum requirement for a solo quest, or any other thread for that matter, to be considered for judging. I'm sure that everyone knows that the number of posts made by each participant is a factor in the equation for EXP and GP, which is a great system overall, but in this one instance, it penalizes more than it assists.

In talking with an assortment of individuals ranging from mod staff to members, I realized that there is absolutely no good reason that a solo quest should be broken up into ten posts if it could fit into one post and still reach the 10k word requirement. A solo quest isn't like a normal thread. You are literally telling a short story from a single vantage point versus two (or more) character views.

I have received conflicting advice on the issue of how to write the story. One person said I should split the thread up into ten posts to boost the amount of EXP I get from the thread. Someone else thought it best that the story be told in a single post, breaking into a new post only when the maximum character limit was reached or a clearly defined sub-chapter began.

I would gladly leave the specifics of the change to people who know more than me, but here's what I think. A solo quest is decidedly harder than a normal quest. I am of the school of thought that believes a story is best told uninterrupted, so I post mine in as few posts as possible. Should I be penalized in the end result for having a three-post story when it could have easily been split up into fifteen posts and received twice as much EXP and GP (if not more)? Having a solo, no matter how many posts, count as a thread with ten posts would mean people can still tell their story the way they feel best portrays it while others who are only after the EXP and GP can't split their thread into more than necessary just to reap inflated benefits.

Sorry if I sound like I'm rambling, but this has been bugging me for a while now.

[Logan]

Sure there is. It's called database and database corruption. Large posts are the suck for a large database. Trust me.

[A Nony Mouse]

I would agree with you here Hikari as I had this same problem when I wrote my first solo. It seems strange to break up the story into ten posts just to get better benefits. But I don't see it changing anytime soon.

[Rayse Valentino]

A solo quest is decidedly harder than a normal quest. I am of the school of thought that believes a story is best told uninterrupted

Interesting that you contradict yourself so quickly.

[HikariAngel]

How do I contradict myself there? A solo being difficult has nothing to do with it being told uninterrupted by breaks between posts. And please, keep comments on the topic of the first post, not attacks against how I worded it or against me personally.

[Rayse Valentino]

Saying that having 100% control over a quest makes the story harder to tell than splitting it between two or more points of view is nonsense.

[Christoph]

What I think he means is that it's more work to get a 10,000 word thread done by yourself than with a couple of other people to split the work up with. On the whole, though, that really has nothing to do with it.

From what I can tell, the point of the opening post is that measuring the quantity of writing in a quest for the sake of determining rewards using post count doesn't make much sense because posts vary so much in length. It's an issue with all threads, but especially solos. What I think HikariAngel is getting at is that a single post thread of 10,000 words should get the same rewards as an identical thread broken into ten posts or more.

[Vampiric Angel]

Which I think it should be that way, since this entire time, my thought was that a single-post thread of 10k words and a 10 post thread were treated with the same formula. I didn't even know there was a way to get extra EXP from post count, and in my opinion, that's just lame.

[HikariAngel]

That is exactly what I was saying, Chrostoph. I know I may not have worded everything the best way, but you made an excellent summary.

If I write a 10,000-word single post and someone else writes ten 500-word posts, who should get more rewards? As the system stands, the ten-post solo would receive more for half the work. Both threads would be acceptable, I believe, seeing how the stipulation is ten-thousand words or ten posts.

[Caden Law]

What I think he means is that it's more work to get a 10,000 word thread done by yourself than with a couple of other people to split the work up with. On the whole, though, that really has nothing to do with it.

From what I can tell, the point of the opening post is that measuring the quantity of writing in a quest for the sake of determining rewards using post count doesn't make much sense because posts vary so much in length. It's an issue with all threads, but especially solos. What I think HikariAngel is getting at is that a single post thread of 10,000 words should get the same rewards as an identical thread broken into ten posts or more.
I was going to go off on a right tangent, but Christoph pretty well said what I was going to say. Kudos to him.

[Lodekai]

From what I am seeing, there is also the complaint that if you made 15 posts of 667 words, you would get a bonus for having 5 more posts than 10 posts of 1000 words for the exact same amount of work.

[Tsukiko]

I am really glad you raised this issue. While I'm sure no mod purposely rewards threads with more posts than those with less posts and more words it's a good thing to keep an eye on. But I also don't want judges feeling like they have to do a post count.

One thing is that Althanas rewards based on quality far more than quantity. I've never seen length change the rewards of a quest unless the quest reaches an epic length. Still it's a good thing to be aware of and I wasn't aware that there was a disparity between threads with more but shorter posts and those with less but longer posts.

[Logan]

Just so you all know, this has been an issue that's been discussed since well before I was a mod years ago. It's something that's not going to change, no matter how hard you fight it -- and trust me, it's been fought hard. If you don't like it, then do it your way and just suffer the consequences. Don't concern yourself with the rewards, concern yourself with the story foremost.

I'm not trying to be an ass or be abrupt, but it's not worth your trouble arguing it. Really. I can assure you.

P.S. -- Truthfully, the system is in place to discourage solos almost entirely. And I'm not joking here. Althanas' biggest draw is it's interaction, and to promote that, solos have to be a limited thing. This is how it was done.

[HikariAngel]

I'm not trying to say that solos should be all the rage, but sometimes they are necessary. I personally hate writing them, but I have to right now. My problem is not with the frequency or necessity of solo quests, but in the fact that I could get double or triple the rewards for the same effort simply by breaking it up into more posts. Something about that just doesn't feel right.

[Seralcard]

It's like cheating, I see what you mean, and in concept I agree with you. As I haven't started playing here yet I need to hold back on a really solid position.

Most boards I've been to have extremely different rules from one another, even vast differences in the rules for varying stories. This is the first board I've seen with such a clear and well planned scoring system. I'm very excited about RPing under these conditions, but it just seems unfortunate that people can and thus would exploit a loop hole like the one you bring up now.

Side Note: This issue is one that's likely to be very important to me early on. In all honesty I probably may do a few solo stories before I begin collaborating. I write a great deal and quickly and often unless I'm otherwise extremely busy. I'm also incredibly impatient and, though I don't pester people about posting, a lack of posts or a delay in such irks me to no end.

[Cyrus the virus]

Just so you all know, this has been an issue that's been discussed since well before I was a mod years ago. It's something that's not going to change, no matter how hard you fight it -- and trust me, it's been fought hard. If you don't like it, then do it your way and just suffer the consequences. Don't concern yourself with the rewards, concern yourself with the story foremost.

I'm not trying to be an ass or be abrupt, but it's not worth your trouble arguing it. Really. I can assure you.

P.S. -- Truthfully, the system is in place to discourage solos almost entirely. And I'm not joking here. Althanas' biggest draw is it's interaction, and to promote that, solos have to be a limited thing. This is how it was done.

What? We've changed the formula, and many other things on this website, solely because the players strongly disagreed with it or showed us there was a better way. The current staff shouldn't be held accountable for the stubbornness the past staff had, even if a few of us are still around.

Now, the more-exp-per-post formula works fabulously well in threads with multiple writers. For solos, though, it does seem to be a problem. I'm sure coming up with a formula based on word count, or something, might be possible.

I'm not the one to do it, though, so I sneak off now!

[Ranger]

Eh, current staff, former staff... doesn't really matter who's involved in the end. I think the basics of what are going to be said in the end is this: "Write however you are most comfortable. If that is writing multiple posts in a thread then do so. If you'd rather write one long post go for it. Eitherway as long as you follow the 10 post or 10,000 words theory you should be set."

That being said, as a former mod who judged quite a bit... I would rather have seen (or see for current mods) a solo spread out a little rather than all one post. For the obvious reasons first, it's easier to read. When you have separate posts you can better space your thoughts, the transitions from place to place, and all that jazz. Secondly, it's still easy to read... I mean, think about it. You have a long single page for a quest. If you need to look back and see something or take a note you might have missed I'd assume it would be easier to just scan through different posts and look for keywords around where you're looking than try and skim each paragraph hoping you find where it was... much less where you left off reading.

That's about it..

[Letho]

That being said, as a former mod who judged quite a bit... I would rather have seen (or see for current mods) a solo spread out a little rather than all one post. For the obvious reasons first, it's easier to read. When you have separate posts you can better space your thoughts, the transitions from place to place, and all that jazz. Secondly, it's still easy to read... I mean, think about it. You have a long single page for a quest. If you need to look back and see something or take a note you might have missed I'd assume it would be easier to just scan through different posts and look for keywords around where you're looking than try and skim each paragraph hoping you find where it was... much less where you left off reading.I agree with a lot that Ranger said here. Unless your solo is basically about your character being in the same place, doing and thinking about the same thing, you only lose by posting everything in one go. Breaking the writing into posts allows for a better control of pacing, because if you finish every post with a small cliffhanger, the reader would more eagerly bite into the next one. Also, scene transitions are much easier if they're done in different posts, and not to mentions shifts in POV which are sometimes required in solos. Also, I'm not entirely certain, but I don't think you can actually post 10,000 words in one go on Althanas. System doesn't allow it. (EDIT: Actually, I tested it and you can post a 10,000 word post. Which is weird, because I was certain that a while ago the limit was at like 2,000 or something)

I do agree that a 5 post quest that is over 10,000 words should get the same rewards as 10 post quests, and I think that they do. While the formula takes into account the post count, there are two facts that we need to take into account. The first is that the post count is the least important factor in the equation. Length is rewarded, but not nearly as much as a score. And the second is that there's judge's discretion. Meaning that while formula spits out a certain number, a judge has the right (and obligation) to add/subtract EXP/GP from the amount if he sees it fit. So if a judge runs into a hypothetical 5 post, 10,000 words solo, I'm certain the said discretion will be used to equalize the rewards.

[A Nony Mouse]

Letho, that is good to know... thank you for clarifying it for me. Since I'm new, I will tend to see the mods in a friendly light with nothing thus far to taint this view. So if you tell me it is at their discretion and they will be fair about it, I will believe you :)

[Bloodrose]

I was pretty much going to say what Letho added to the conversation, but he beat me to it. The idea that someone who splits their quest up into more posts is going to receive more rewards - by simple fact of having more posts - is a little silly.

For example, if you post a 10,000 word single post solo and it scores a 75, the judge is obviously going to see that you put a lot of work into the quest and reward it accordingly. On the other hand, if I write a short little 5000 word quest, split it into 10 posts, and score a 50 - am I going to get more rewards just because I have 10 posts?

No, because rewards are not determined by some cold, uncaring calculator sitting in a closet. Rewards are determined by living, breathing people who can see and appreciate the effort someone puts into their work.

[Logan]

Thank you for verbalizing what I couldn't think straight enough to do, Letho and Ranger. That's always been the argument and always been the key.

[Max Dirks]

Another note: the EXP equations used for quests produce only base amounts. The judges can adjust that amount if they determine it prudent. Don't be afraid to mention your concerns in the judging requests either. The requests are a good way to communicate with them.

[Cyrus the virus]

Also, since I only really thought about it now, if I ever saw a 10,000 word post I'd just calculate that EXP as if there were 10 posts.

[SunDancer]

While I'm knew here, I have some experience with writing and have been finding ways to improve since the start (and a part of it is maturity...but anyway, that was a tangent).

I have a couple points on this matter: While the number of posts shouldn't matter in the score of a thread, the author(s) should keep in mind that different scenes are better indicated by a new post - the same reason why there are chapters in novels. The number of posts should be up to the author(s) with that (and the judge's ease) in mind; however, if long posts make the thread difficult to read, then the score should be decreased. If long posts decrease the inefficiency of transitions, then the score should be decreased. But, if the length of the post doesn't effect the quality of the writing and the story, then it shouldn't effect the score.

And I understand the...dislike of solos, but there are times where it is necessary; however, most people here are not here to write solos, they're here to interact. If someone writes to many solos, then a Mod should point it out to them.

Now, before people start clamering for a change in the formula, let's know what the formula is. If there is demed to be a problem by the majority of people here, then a change should be made. But not until then.

[Zook Murnig]

If long (or incredibly brief) posts make the thread awkward or difficult to read, that's a deduction from Pacing. Plain and simple.

[Dirge]

Being new, SunDancer, you'd not know about Alcolyte Boshe, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of what I saw from the characters played by him were rped in a solo or a thread between two of his own characters.

[Tsukiko]

heh and no one mentioned Valentina Snow. She was a very big member way back when and she did almost nothing but solo. She did RP with other people but I never saw her do anything but a solo.

[Dirge]

Very true, I forgot she did a lot of solo's. No issues with either of them, they just wrote how it flowed, which was my point for bringing them up in the first place, had forgotten why I said the names, lol

[Lodekai]

Jess was kind of in her own category, though. She would have 3,4 even 5 pages and each post would be 3000+ words. Very few solos are that length, and they took her months to finish.

[Sighter Tnailog]

Just for the record, I tend to alter my post count formula if I sense that the threads in question are longer or shorter. I would input a 10,000 word post into our formula as if it were 20 posts, and a 3000 word ten-poster in as if it were 6 posts. My rule of thumb for a post is around 500 words, and if I sense that posts are going over or below that mark I'll adjust my scoring accordingly.

Also, just so everyone knows, I have judged a thread before that was only around 4000 words and was exactly 6 posts. And yet it still managed to tell a rollicking good story, kept my attention, made me laugh, and was, in a word, complete. In fact, I didn't even realize the story didn't meet the "technical" requirements until I finished writing the judging. So don't feel wedded to the rules there. We keep them around to prevent people from writing 300 words worth of tripe and trying to get rewards for it. But if your sample is sufficient and engaging and complete, it should be judged in most cases.