When Did Fighting Become Optional?

[Saxon]

The Dajas Pagoda.

Most people who see the name think of quick, concise battles and those who are well read of the rules and the ranks know of what benefits you could reap if you obtained a high position on it. The idea of the Pagoda is great, and it was one of the things in Scara Brae that I actually looked forward to participating in when I saw it for the first time. I liked the idea so much that when I decided to start getting in on the battles, I found something very strange in the ranking system. A lot of the people who currnetly participate in the Pagoda and are ranked have never actually completed a battle start to finish to judgment.

Wait.. What?

That's right. A lot of members who've obtained their positions throughout the hierarchy in the Pagoda have done so through disqualification victories. Now, I'm not saying everybody who is involved are at fault here, but I think the rules that have allowed them to either capitalize on it or be shuffled forward with it have made the Pagoda grossly inefficent. Disqualification in general has led to a wide array of contestants who either haven't properly earned the position or have strategically chosen lazy opponents to take advantage of the system of rules meant to keep the Pagoda running properly in the first place.

When I looked over the Pagoda ranks, I saw a lot of people with zeroes in their columns or streaks that had been obtained through DQs and TLs (Technical Losses). That really isn't what the purpose of the Pagoda is, or am I mistaken here? Where are the fast, substantial battles that I was told I'd find here? Where's the integrity in the system?

I think that the Pagoda is a really good idea to have been implemented onto Althanas, but a lot of things have fallen through the cracks when the rules were written and management was transferred over from person to person. I see no reason why a person who won by disqualification should obtain a position in the Pagoda nor should the people disqualified be so ineptly penalized for it. I mean, if you're going to fight in the Pagoda and expect to reap those benefits, then the least you could do is expect to have to defend that position. This makes excuses of 'emergency leave' and 'disappearances' moot when there are leave threads and proper channels to go through to give you the extended period of leave that you need to handle any abrupt emergencies.

To summarize, I think a few changes in the Pagoda need to be made in order to make it more efficent and keep it fair while at the same time making the possibility of taking advantage of the system limited. First, warriors/masters/grandmasters who are disqualified should be stripped of their their rank or their benefits need to be proportionality removed until they learn their lesson, and people shouldn't be allowed to advance in rank because of disqualification. As well, I had a suggestion from a friend who said that obtaining ranks should be harder instead of a one match shuffle to the top. For warrior position, you need to defeat a warrior. For master you need to have defeated two warriors to advance, etcetra. It protects the ranking system and also gives the Pagoda some padding when so many people are gunning for the position of Grandmaster.

I'm not sure if these would be the best solutions, but I'll stand by them unless somebody can come up with a better idea here. Because if theres a chance for somebody to obtain the position of Grandmaster and not having actually completed a battle that has been weighed and judged, there is a very big problem in the Pagoda.

I'm not saying the Pagoda is corrupt or everybody has taken advantage of it, because there are some folks out there that have rightfully earned their titles. But I think its been managed on a poor set of rules and there are those who have tried to snake their way to the top, so a few changes need to be made. What changes do you think need to be made for the Pagoda to clean it up a bit? Do those that have earned their positions through not actually battling in the Pagoda deserve to keep their rank? Voice your opinion.

I'd like to ask in advance that everybody who posts keep flaming out of this thread and keep it constructive.

[Godhand]

strategically chosen lazy opponents to take advantage of the system of rules meant to keep the Pagoda running properly in the first place.

Yo.

I freely admit to picking my spots, but I think I'm vindicated by the fact that only a dumbass would think I'm not capable of crushing those guys in a battle, both ICly and OOCly. I mean let's face it, I'm the best writer here. And soon, I'll be Pagoda Champion.

[Zook Murnig]

I'd like to say that I agree with what's been said here. And I don't need my identity protected, being the friend who suggested the two-win-to-advance system.

It's my opinion, as well, that the system for determining who fills an DQ-emptied slot should be based on battles, just like everything else in the Pagoda. If there's a Warrior slot open, have an open application period followed by a match between the two most promising applicants. Whoever wins the match can claim the spot. If it's a Master slot that's open, then let two Warriors duke it out for that slot. Grandmaster can be fought over between Masters. And this allows for a trickle-down as well. When a Grandmaster slot gets filled, a Master position will automatically be opened to be filled by a Warrior. Then the Warrior position will open up for an applicant. Thus, it becomes an exciting opportunity for all levels when someone resigns or is disqualified from their rank.

Alternatively, there could be a strike-based system for determining how many DQs are allowed before a ranking fighter loses rank. One strike means you gain benefits like one someone one rank lower until you've won two battles consecutively, and that strike is removed. A second strike lowers your benefits another rank, and can be removed in the same way. If your strikes ever reduce your benefits to nil, and you gain another strike, you are automatically ousted for neglect of your position.

The Dajas Pagoda should be everchanging. Shifts of power should take place regularly in a competitive environment like that. Ranking fighters should have to battle fiercely for the right to keep their rank. And moving up not only provides better benefits, but more protection from being removed from power.

Also, I'm not sure the reasoning behind the mandatory delay between gaining a rank and vying for a higher rank. If Christoph or someone else could explain that, I'd be very grateful.

[Breaker]

I must say, I agree with a lot of the points Saxon made here.

If you think about it, since its re-opening the Dajas Pagoda rules haven't undergone many major changes. While I think Atzar did a great job of formulating everything, and Karuka and Christoph have both put a lot of time and energy into it, the system needs to evolve now that we've seen the pros and cons of the Pagoda rules.

Zook: The rule in question actually states that a winning challenger may take the defeated hierarch's rank, or challenge a hierarch of the next tier. The waiting period of two weeks if you choose to take the hierarch position is like not being able to have your cake and eat it, too.

Since that's kind of a stupid turn of phrase, think about it this way. The two week period gives other people a chance to challenge the newly appointed hierarch. It forces people to make a decison: Do you want a fast track to the top, or to become a member of the Pagoda?

That's the way I've always looked at it anyway, and to be honest I like that rule.

[Zook Murnig]

I dunno, it seems to me that a rule like that discourages activity within the ranks of the Pagoda. Members should constantly be vying for top dog status, and I don't think it should be encouraged for obviously weaker writers to be allowed to remain in their positions at the Pagoda.

[A Nony Mouse]

I like that rule too, I think it forced you to defend your rank before you zip to the top. And I totally agree with everything Saxon and Zook have said here. I like the strike system and the idea of needing to beat more people to advance.

That being said, I don't think that having one person as the Grandmaster would be an issue; as long as that person is battling to defend his or her title. If the Grandmaster gets a streak of 15 wins, then they deserve that seat. I know you all agree, so I am psyched to see what can be changed to make the Pagoda a better place.

Also, I think the current and formers mods did a great job with what they had; the system needs changing not the people :)

[Christoph]

Damn you all! :p You've all brought up the issues that my new draft of Pagoda rules (coming soon!) will hopefully address, at least in part, before I posted them. In short, I'm providing real incentives to complete battles that will hopefully encourage better activity.

I've noticed all of these problems as well long before I took over the Pagoda; that is part of the reason I asked to take it over to begin with. It was just that my first priority was to get the Pagoda cleaned up and in running order again. Now, however, I am going to be updating the rules to hopefully fix these problems.

So fear not fellow Althanians! Your voices have been heard before your mouths ever opened.

[A Nony Mouse]

So fear not fellow Althanians! Your voices have been heard before your mouths ever opened.

Good to hear... though when will these updates be posted?

[Max Dirks]

In short, I'm providing real incentives to complete battles that will hopefully encourage better activity. Bingo. If you want people to finish without backing out, provide better rewards.

[Saxon]

So fear not fellow Althanians! Your voices have been heard before your mouths ever opened.

Glad to hear this wasn't going to be an uphill battle after all. ;)

[Breaker]

Bingo. If you want people to finish without backing out, provide better rewards.

Better rewards, but also consistent consequences when hierarchs back out.

[Zook Murnig]

Christoph, you said you were addressing all, or at least most, of our concerns in the update. You didn't. All you dealt with was adding more rewards, but keeping everything else the same. Keep your fucking promises, or don't make them.

[Logan]

I don't think the update he put up there was the final update. I think that was just a temporary one to get the inactives out of their positions and new ones into positions who will stay active. Once he has time to address this I'm sure he'll point that out as well.

As well as how he's still got more work to do with the Pagoda -- ie: it's not fully done yet!

[Godhand]

Christoph, you said you were addressing all, or at least most, of our concerns in the update. You didn't. All you dealt with was adding more rewards, but keeping everything else the same. Keep your fucking promises, or don't make them.

Start mattering or stop bitching.

[Taskmienster]

Anyway...

I agree that the changes aren't really for the better. I mean, you can still challenge someone who isn't active and take their spot. Once you get in their spot you can just do the same thing for the next one... still needs more.

[Bloodrose]

In my opinion the Pagoda works fine as is, so long as the Hierarchs that make it up are active. Fighting becomes optional and the system falls apart when the Hierarchy falls into the kind of inactivity it had before myself, Godhand, Christoph, and a few others decided to start bumping inactive people and restore the Pagoda.

From what I've seen, this thread started over the fact that many of the current Hierarchs are where they are because they won a lot of "victories" by DQ. Maybe that fact only stands true due to the simultaneous fact that over half of the Pagoda's fighters were inactive. Maybe, rather than whine about inactivity in the Pagoda, several members decided to take it upon themselves to oust the old and dying regime to make the Pagoda active again.

Seems to me that a lot more can be done to reform the Pagoda from the inside out than can be done in a thread on the outside.

EDIT: The Pagoda doesn't need a rule change. What it needs are Hierarchs who won't bail on their responsibilities.

[Elijah_Morendale]

You're always going to have inactivity. Sometimes people have real life (serious business) that takes precedence over a game on an internet forum.

EDIT: Also, there's a chance of burn out. I voluntarily left the pagoda because I was picking up everyone else's slack, and couldn't handle it any more. With this glut of new challengers I've seen, the same thing is going to end up happening to everyone. Also, if the whole "champion" title goes as Christoph plans, Bloodrose is going to have a LOT on his plate in a short while.

I would suggest adding another spot on each hierarchy to alleviate some of this, including the Grandmaster level--but add the stipulation that in order to become champion, the Grandmaster in question has to win a battle against the other, in addition to the four straight victories against other challengers.

[A Nony Mouse]

I think that we should all just storm the Pagoda and start killing people in battles. Then we can all get into the Hierarchy, stay active, and alleviate this problem.

[Bloodrose]

I understand the arguments about IRL issues and getting burned out, but that's why the Leave thread and the cap on required active battles was implemented. If you know or realize that RL is about to piledrive you into inactivity, then post in the Leave thread. If you're going to be gone longer than the Leave rules allow, then a Hierarch should take it upon themselves to either resign or let Christoph know that they should be removed if need be.

Half the problem with lower Hierarchs rising by DQ's is that the higher-ups go inactive but continue to try and sit on their positions in the hope that no one will notice or bother to snipe them off. If, as Grandmaster, I realized I was going to be inactive for a long period of time, I would resign and let Christoph decide how my successor should be chosen - rather than let the first lucky Master to challenge me get the spot by default.

On the note of burning out, the cap was designed to prevent that. Most people, if they are active enough to want to get involved in the Pagoda, should be able to handle two threads at once. If that's to much, or you'd rather focus on quests and things outside the Pagoda, then maybe the Hierarchy isn't the place for you. I don't want you to take this as a dig Elijah, because I understood and respected that you were trying to keep the Pagoda alive, but taking to many battles at once is the short road to Hell. There is an old saying, "Don't bite off more than you can chew.", and I think every Hierarch should keep that in mind.

I guess what it boils down to is that Hierarchs need to realize they are responsible for more than just battles. By getting involved they have a responsibility to the community to see that they handle their status in the Pagoda appropriately in any given situation.

[Godhand]

The only problem I have with the system right now is that there's no way to really have a "Championship" fight. I mean, at best you can defend your championship by being the fourth guy the Grandmaster fights. Even then, there's not really that feeling of "THIS NEXT FIGHT IS FOR THE WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPIONSHIP! STANDING IN THE RED CORNER..." etc.

[A Nony Mouse]

The only way I could think to do that is have two pagodas and pit the grandmasters against one another for a "championship match". granted, that would be cool, but i dunno that we have enough people to do that.

[Elijah_Morendale]

Bitch please, it'd take a lot more than that to offend me.


Godhand, why do you think I proposed the addition of another Grandmaster?

[Zook Murnig]

I'm not saying that inactive hierarchs isn't a problem, or the root of the problem. What I'm saying is that perhaps people would be more apt to defend their spot, take a little more pride in it, if they actually worked hard and earned their rank. Gaining a Warrior rank by merely challenging an inactive Pagoda member is the easy way to get in, and there shouldn't be an easy way.

On that note, there's also been a recent case of abuse by Christoph. When Shadar was demoted to Warrior from Master, his name was taken off the list wholesale. Then, last night, his name reappeared and either immediately before or immediately after, Christoph challenged him for the Hierarch spot, claiming it was to clear out the last of the inactive members. Except if he'd put it up and left it there, someone else would have cleared it out for him.

I didn't want to bring that up in here, but it's just been festering in my mind since I saw it. If Chris has a reasonable explanation for this, let him post it here and defend himself. But I don't see one, personally.

[Godhand]

The Pagoda mod took a warrior position. Truly, an abuse of unprecedented levels.

[Taskmienster]

Half the problem with lower Hierarchs rising by DQ's is that the higher-ups go inactive but continue to try and sit on their positions in the hope that no one will notice or bother to snipe them off. If, as Grandmaster, I realized I was going to be inactive for a long period of time, I would resign and let Christoph decide how my successor should be chosen - rather than let the first lucky Master to challenge me get the spot by default.

I agree with that... but the problem is we need people with your initiative to be able to say they aren't going to be around for a while to be in ALL spots. I mean, it'd be better to have a slot open for new people to jump in AFTER a fight proving they should be there than just have an inactive person on the list that others are going to pick so they don't have to fight...

Example: Someone is inactive for more than a month, doesn't take open fights or accept the ones against them. They should be dropped, period. Nobody should be able to say, oh, they're not here, why not pick them so I can easily get the rank.

Instead, just have someone already in a fight with a warrior rank who loses but scored well and showed they deserved the spot but just lost to a warrior take it. Or the defeated warrior keep their rank, but the new winner takes one too. Then you have two active people, who completed a battle, who are now on the list.

Of course, this is going to be difficult to see who's active where, but if you had a bi-weekly check of just "Here" or something. Or the mod could just look at a person, see if they've been on within a certain time. If they haven't, send them a PM saying that they need to recognize that they are still part of the Pagoda or give up their position.

[Zook Murnig]

The Pagoda mod took a warrior position. Truly, an abuse of unprecedented levels.

You trivialize the offense by acknowledging the ends and ignoring the means. Truly, you are a master of debate!

Yes, he's set himself up to take a Warrior position. But the method he used to do so is what I'm bringing into question here. Had he put Shadar on the Warrior list when he was demoted, someone else might have taken the opportunity to become a Warrior, and he didn't want that. So he held off and put it up when he was damn well ready to do so, and ready to take the spot.

[Tsukiko]

We really need the Theater of War back. It had all the neat stuff that people are vying for in the pagoda, Fame and great rewards but didn't have the hierarchs to mess things up. The problem is there's only a limited pool of people to challenge and if they go inactive than it's just a free win. I think the point system would work much better as there would be an unlimited pool of people to challenge so it could be much more active and not end up caving under high activity.

[Bloodrose]

On that note, there's also been a recent case of abuse by Christoph. When Shadar was demoted to Warrior from Master, his name was taken off the list wholesale. Then, last night, his name reappeared and either immediately before or immediately after, Christoph challenged him for the Hierarch spot, claiming it was to clear out the last of the inactive members. Except if he'd put it up and left it there, someone else would have cleared it out for him.

I didn't want to bring that up in here, but it's just been festering in my mind since I saw it. If Chris has a reasonable explanation for this, let him post it here and defend himself. But I don't see one, personally.

A reasonable explanation? I can come up with one right off the top of my head. How about: "Oops, forgot to add Shadar to the warrior's when I removed him from the Masters." Seems like it could happen, since none of us are so perfect as to never forget things now and again.

We can devolve this thread into conspiracy theories, accusations, and subtle jabs if you want, but let's not, shall we?

I can't speak for everyone, but I'd say don't worry about us rolling over and playing dead to our challengers just because a few people don't feel that we've worked hard or earned our spots. I may have risen through happenstance and luck, I'll freely admit that I did, but I'll be damned if I don't defend the Grandmaster title with everything I've got against anyone who wants to try taking it from me.

EDIT:


So he held off and put it up when he was damn well ready to do so, and ready to take the spot.

Shadar was still listed as a Master as late as yesterday afternoon. I hardly think there was a window of opportunity there are wide and as grossly misappropriated by Christoph as you'd like to imagine.

[Godhand]

You trivialize the offense by acknowledging the ends and ignoring the means. Truly, you are a master of debate!

Maybe it's just your avatar or your tone, but I'm getting a serious algonquin round table feel from this conversation. Egads! Your spurious accusations have made my blood turn bilious! Had I glove, I would surely slap you with it! Good day, sir!!!

On a more serious note, since the only one saying that Shadar's name was off the list is a Qaballistic crackpot like you, I'm not really inclined to believe it. Even if it was, Bloodrose covered why that might have been rather well.

[Zook Murnig]

I'm merely pointing out that the timing of it all is rather suspicious. And as mod of the Pagoda, Christoph needs to be mindful of how things might look when he starts to personally take part in it, especially on his main account. People will assume the worst, and that's what I've done. If he explains that it's just a misunderstanding, sure, I'll believe him. But neither of you will make me back down on this matter.

I understand that he may have just forgotten to put Shadar on the list before, and that's what I thought when I first saw it. But then he brought Shadar back on the list, and immediately challenged him. If you're the mod of the Pagoda, give a little time for people to see that he's available for challenging. Hell, make a post mentioning your mistake to alert people. But don't immediately leap on the opportunity. It looks bad. It looks selfish. Its unethical.

EDIT: And Godhand, I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd leave my religious beliefs out of this. Because I certainly never claimed to have skried for any of this information or anything. I'm stating what I saw with my eyes on my computer screen over the past couple of days. As to why I was watching that thread so closely, I'm Brother of My Blade, and I seriously just want to challenge someone I know I can fight.

[Cyrus the virus]

If you have an issue with something that Christoph can probably explain, please PM him with the issue instead of bringing it up on the public forum where it can be elevated far beyond the necessary level.

As for activity, it's hardly a big deal. I just challenged an inactive Warrior and took his place, but I don't get any rewards for it until I defend the spot. So it's not like somebody taking a position with minimal effort is such a horrible thing.

[Taskmienster]

We really need the Theater of War back. It had all the neat stuff that people are vying for in the pagoda, Fame and great rewards but didn't have the hierarchs to mess things up. The problem is there's only a limited pool of people to challenge and if they go inactive than it's just a free win. I think the point system would work much better as there would be an unlimited pool of people to challenge so it could be much more active and not end up caving under high activity.

Fo SHO! I had originally tried to reincarnate the Pagoda when I was a mod to be the lower leveled players version of the ToW, because at the time I was trying to revive that for the non-SB participating group. Didn't work, but oh well.

As for the warrior thing, I don't see how it's too much different than how the beginning of the new DP was. People were picked, they didn't have to fight. Though, it'd be nice to see people fight and finish battles now that it's up and running.


And Godhand, if you don't have anything nice to say, fuck off. Half of what you've posted is nonsensical babble, flaming, or just general trolling. I've been quiet, since you seem to post in every OOC thread with the same nonsense, but it's just gotten to the point where it's more than annoying. It's not allowed by the rules of Althanas, so please abide by them.

[Godhand]

And Godhand, if you don't have anything nice to say, fuck off. Half of what you've posted is nonsensical babble, flaming, or just general trolling. I've been quiet, since you seem to post in every OOC thread with the same nonsense, but it's just gotten to the point where it's more than annoying. It's not allowed by the rules of Althanas, so please abide by them.

Let me guess: if I do it one more time, you're done?

[Taskmienster]

Like that, it's completely unnecessary and doesn't pertain to the topic at all. Neither does this, so I'm not going to argue about it via posts. An unbias OOC mod would have already warned you thousands of times by now. Please, just leave it out if it's not constructive.

[Cyrus the virus]

Come on, we should know Godhand's persona by now. He knows when he's pushing it. If it's a big issue, send a PM to a staff member (Serilliant) and I promise it'll be more effective than this.

But yeah, the Pagoda should be running well very soon. It's gotten quite active and I'm excited to smash some bitches.

[Bloodrose]

It looks bad. It looks selfish. Its unethical.

And slinging down baseless accusations, ones so easily explained away, in a public forum is really so much better? You've already said yourself that you'd believe Christoph if he gave you a decent explanation, so why not just IM or PM him?

You know what your bringing it up here feels like? It feels like you're trying to smear the name and actions of a good moderator to draw attention away from the fact that you whined about not getting the changes you wanted. Who knows, maybe you made the accusation because Christoph didn't implement the changes you wanted.

See? I can pull conspiracy theories out of thin air as well.

[Zook Murnig]

And you know what? I'll let you believe what you want. All I want is for the Pagoda to work better, and for people to earn their spots. I was well aware what it would look like when I brought the issue up, a plea for attention. And you know what? I don't care. I still think those changes should be made, or at least properly considered. And trust me, I had a look at Christoph's write-up for the new rules when he posted them on the mod forum. They didn't change after he read this. Not a bit of what was brought up here was implemented in the new rules.

[Bloodrose]

Then maybe you should have made that sentiment known in the mod thread when the new rules were posted to be looked over. Maybe you should have posted and said "Hey Christoph, what about these changes we were talking over over here?"

They say silence is often misconstrued as agreement, so you have no one to blame but yourself for not raising these issues there.

[Zook Murnig]

I didn't think it would be necessary after Christoph spotted the thread that a non-mod started and posted in it saying he'd incorporate the changes.

[Elijah_Morendale]

Never assume.

[Bloodrose]

I recall Christoph saying that he was changing the rules to promote more activity and give people more of an incentive to finish their battles. He specifically notes that "hopefully" those changes will correct the Pagoda's current problems.

He doesn't state anywhere that he's going to incorporate the precise changes floated in this thread, and those specific changes should have been floated again in the mod forum once it became apparent they weren't in the first draft.

I didn't raise these issues because I don't have any problem with the current or former rules of the Pagoda.

[Max Dirks]

We really need the Theater of War back.Tsukiko wins the prize. The Pagoda was never designed to support the amount of activity that it currently has. I suppose that's a testament to the system and players like Atzar, numbers, Christoph, Bloodrose and Godhand who refused to let it die. Yari, Sorjax and I (the Pagoda's original moderators) found that the burden on the "masters" was too great, especially when there was virtually no limit to the number of challenges one could make (this is back when only level 0-1 characters were admitted too). We had to redraft it.

The second draft of the Pagoda involved "player masters," a form of which still exists today. Ideally, the players would keep the ball rolling and prevent strain. When they got bored, someone could replace them. At the same time, the ToW acted as the primary source of Althanas battle competition. Victors in the Pagoda eventually graduated to the ToW and the Pagoda maintained its new player atmosphere. Soon they both went on hiatus. When the Pagoda was picked up by Atzar, the "player masters" concept remained but level restriction was removed so ANYONE could participate. With tournaments taking new creative turns (2 v 2, Army, Quest), I suspect many players chose the Pagoda over tournaments because it promotes hearty 1 v 1 battles.

After further review, I think the best way to solve the inactivity issue is to bring back the ToW and restore level restrictions on the Pagoda. In all honesty, though there are alot of threads to judge in the ToW, its administration is much simpler because no one is truly required to participate like the masters (in a way) are. Tsukiko, you're right on the mark.

[Taskmienster]

Tsukiko wins the prize. The Pagoda was never designed to support the amount of activity that it currently has. I suppose that's a testament to the system and players like Atzar, numbers, Christoph, Bloodrose and Godhand who refused to let it die. Yari, Sorjax and I (the Pagoda's original moderators) found that the burden on the "masters" was too great, especially when there was virtually no limit to the number of challenges one could make (this is back when only level 0-1 characters were admitted too). We had to redraft it.

The second draft of the Pagoda involved "player masters," a form of which still exists today. Ideally, the players would keep the ball rolling and prevent strain. When they got bored, someone could replace them. At the same time, the ToW acted as the primary source of Althanas battle competition. Victors in the Pagoda eventually graduated to the ToW and the Pagoda maintained its new player atmosphere. Soon they both went on hiatus. When the Pagoda was picked up by Atzar, the "player masters" concept remained but level restriction was removed so ANYONE could participate. With tournaments taking new creative turns (2 v 2, Army, Quest), I suspect many players chose the Pagoda over tournaments because it promotes hearty 1 v 1 battles.

After further review, I think the best way to solve the inactivity issue is to bring back the ToW and restore level restrictions on the Pagoda. In all honesty, though there are alot of threads to judge in the ToW, its administration is much simpler because no one is truly required to participate like the masters (in a way) are. Tsukiko, you're right on the mark.

Agreed. It would definitely alleviate a lot of the stress on the Pagoda and allow higher leveled people to duke it out on a wider, less "rank" restricted atmosphere.

[Saxon]

In my opinion the Pagoda works fine as is, so long as the Hierarchs that make it up are active. Fighting becomes optional and the system falls apart when the Hierarchy falls into the kind of inactivity it had before myself, Godhand, Christoph, and a few others decided to start bumping inactive people and restore the Pagoda.

I think we need to get one thing clear, there is a very big distinction between change and personal responsibility. Although I agree that the Pagoda does work in a sense, I don't think that the rules that were put in place govern the area well enough to give the amount of oversight needed to keep people from leapfrogging to the top without any actual fighting involved. Whenever you have a competition where you hand out trophies willy-nilly just for trying, you have a big problem with getting people to motivate and apply themselves without trying to look for an easy way out. I would hope that everybody had the kind of motivation and honor you had in that kind of competition, but lets be realistic.

However, I've had this discussion with Chris the day he put new rules in place. We weren't able to come to a consensus that people who win by DQ shouldn't gain the rank, but we did have an interesting compromise. Instead of trying to boot out inactivity and people who skate the rulers or just handing the people pagoda titles on a silver platter, the point was raised that maybe the ranking system should be bottle-necked. Of course people jocking for the warrior position could win by DQ or a technical fault, because everybody is pining for it, but instead once it gets to Master or GM should have a requirement of so many completed battles that had reached judgment.

Although it isn't what I would've liked initially, it does solve most of our problems and stops this incessant bickering.


We really need the Theater of War back. It had all the neat stuff that people are vying for in the pagoda, Fame and great rewards but didn't have the hierarchs to mess things up. The problem is there's only a limited pool of people to challenge and if they go inactive than it's just a free win. I think the point system would work much better as there would be an unlimited pool of people to challenge so it could be much more active and not end up caving under high activity


After further review, I think the best way to solve the inactivity issue is to bring back the ToW and restore level restrictions on the Pagoda. In all honesty, though there are alot of threads to judge in the ToW, its administration is much simpler because no one is truly required to participate like the masters (in a way) are. Tsukiko, you're right on the mark.

Since when did the Theatre of War apply to this discussion? Instead of pulling out pet projects and leading people in another direction as many of us tend to do, we need to start solving problems while we move along. The Theatre of War was before my time, but from what I gathered here I still can't really see why the Pagoda needs to be raped of what makes it such a great competition by instituting level restrictions and essentially casting it back to the bottom of the site. Trying to tear the highers from the lowers would probably destroy either project because our system dictates that high levels and low levels have a symbiotic relationship, whether we like it or not.

Instituting an entirely different event that has absolutely nothing to do with the Pagoda in an effort to dillute the problem instead of fixing it is far more detrimental than it is helpful.

[Max Dirks]

Instead of pulling out pet projects and leading people in another direction as many of us tend to do, we need to start solving problems while we move along...I added the emphasis (bolded) because your comment is ridiculous. Honestly, I don't understand your beef with me. Restarting the ToW was submitted as a VIABLE solution to the problem that you've presented. It can restore activity to the Pagoda and perhaps get it closer to its roots. If you don't like the idea, attack it. Stop taking closed handed shots at me.
Trying to tear the highers from the lowers would probably destroy either project because our system dictates that high levels and low levels have a symbiotic relationship, whether we like it or not.Skill level is irrelevant. Scara Brae existed solely as a means to accumulate "new players" with Althanas. Once players are comfortable, they can graduate to the continents. In the case of battles, those players could move to the ToW or tournaments. By your logic, Scara Brae should be scrapped in its entirety.

[Zook Murnig]

Scara Brae should be scrapped in its entirety.

As well it should! At least as far as the nonsensical rule that no one over level 1 can RP there unless they're a guest.

[Saxon]

If you don't like the idea, attack it. Stop taking closed handed shots at me.

I don't like the idea, Max, and I think reinstituting other programs to help circumvent the problems would be far less helpful than updating the rules.

Feel better?

The idea was brought up before that Scara's level caps should be scrapped, but again this an entirely different argument. Instead of bringing in level restrictions and cutting the problem in half, it should be fixed. And if you have a problem with the way I phrase things, I apologize, but the Theatre of War isn't the Pagoda and therefore is just more clutter to the issue at hand. Instead of keeping things the way they are or opening an entirely different can of worms, wouldn't it be more practical to fix the Pagoda by changing some of its rules here and there than to dredge up a relic and distract people from it?

[A Nony Mouse]

As well it should! At least as far as the nonsensical rule that no one over level 1 can RP there unless they're a guest.

hey, i like scara brae.

[Zook Murnig]

Anonymous, I never said I wanted Scara Brae scrapped as a whole, just the idea that only low-level characters can be there.

[Taskmienster]

The ToW was better than any tournament that is currently on here, and it DID alleviate A LOT of the issues that are currently happening with the Pagoda, making it's admittance into this discussion viable.

And since SB has always been a region devoted to the lower leveled people, it is non-sense not to think that the Pagoda couldn't be limited to said levels. It's established as a 0-1 place, the Pagoda's part of it and the history, why can't it be for level's 0-1 unless someone levels past that during their use of the forum? I mean, when you lose at lvl 2, and you keep losing till you're gone, you shouldn't be allowed back if it's kept to the nature of why it was begun in the first place...

And I like SB too, it's actually one of my favorite places to write. Hence why I was a mod there, and why I still rp there a lot. It's simpler and more down to earth than the insanity that's going on across the regions... lol

[Max Dirks]

Instead of keeping things the way they are or opening an entirely different can of worms, wouldn't it be more practical to fix the Pagoda by changing some of its rules here and there than to dredge up a relic and distract people from it?Tell me if I'm wrong, but the problem you presented was that "masters" (used generically) tend to disappear for long periods of time, correct? It seems that you are looking for a solution to improve "MASTER" activity. Reinstating the level restriction and re-opening the ToW will decrease PAGODA activity, which is where I think I've lost you. My idea is this: if "experienced" players goto the ToW, where they can presumably receive better prizes, it leaves the Pagoda for "new" players. Overall PAGODA activity will decrease, bringing activity down to something the "masters" can handle. Then, when they are not overwhelmed, "MASTER" activity will increase. See, it does solve your problem. It seems to me that you don't like those ideas because you don't want PAGODA activity to decrease, is that correct? If it is, then your argument has merit and actually makes much more sense than your "stay on topic" point from before.

On a side note: one of the lost functions of the Pagoda was for "masters" to provide OOC commentary during the match help the "new" players improve their RP. It would be cool if that came back.

[Saxon]

The Pagoda is no longer just for new players, there are higher levels who want to participate in it. From what I've heard about the Theatre of War is that comissioning it will be entirely more complicated than changing the rules in the first place. It has to reinstated, it needs its own amount of attention, somebody to manage it, etcetra. The problem I'm seeing again and again is that people don't think the rewards for the Pagoda or good enough. What more could you possibly offer short of free level-ups and massive amounts of gold would be more substantial than the page of rewards and opportunities the Pagoda provides? Offering a seperate dish (I.E. the THEATRE OF WAR) for people to eat out of may alleviate some of the pressure on the PAGODA but it doesn't necessarily solve the problem, that's my beef with it.

[A Nony Mouse]

On a side note: one of the lost functions of the Pagoda was for "masters" to provide OOC commentary during the match help the "new" players improve their RP. It would be cool if that came back.

That would be neat... I like that idea.

[Logan]

The Pagoda was always meant to be for the lower levels as a means to which they could advance and gain prestige. The problem is it takes no time at ALL with the current system to reach lvl 2 if you are skilled at all.

My main concern is that even if we restrict the Pagoda to lower lvls, we will also encourage members of long-standingness to participate by creating new chars solely to be "the man".

The Pagoda needs to have one Grand Champion who is a long-standing member or mod, and one Champion who is a relative newcomer (with the site no more than a year). The other positions can be filled by newcomers as well. The purpose of the Pagoda is like a newbie friendly zone(ie: Scara Brae) having it's own rank and file system.

Otherwise, those poor n00bs won't get much of a chance to learn the ropes before they hit the big tourneys (a big reason for inactivity in my time).

I really encourage the reinstitution of the ToW because it promoted higher level participation and also interactivity between members on a whole nother level. There is no reason the ToW couldn't be tied to the Pagoda though.

Perhaps have the higher heirarchs be champions of the ToW (requires a commitment on more than one level).

*shrugs* just a thought.

[Rayse Valentino]

Then, when they are not overwhelmed, "MASTER" activity will increase.

This assumes that the reason the masters go inactive is because they're swamped, which is false. I've almost never seen someone go inactive because they have too much to do, but I've seen almost everyone go inactive for other reasons.

Anyway, I trust Christoph to handle thing and keep it for ALL LEVELS and make rewards worthwhile and keep the master position illustrious. Why? More people will want it, and as long as it's easy to keep there will be a challenge. (Like, say that in order to surpass a master, your score needs to be at least 5 above theirs). That's just a suggestion, but the main point is that Althanas already has low enough activity as it is, don't lower it even further by splitting Pagoda up into Theater of War and Pagoda; especially since our ACTIVE lower level population is abysmal. I would suggest moving it out of Scara Brae and into The Citadel. In fact, make it a VISIBLE sub-forum of The Citadel (or quick link or whatever).

Also on the Christoph note, he's a bit of a replacement for Call me J right now, but he doesn't have J's ridiculous stamina. He has to do, what? The tournament, the Pagoda, and the Clan War too? Damn. At least get another judge uninvolved with the tournament to handle that shizniz.

[Logan]

Lol. Rayse...you just basically said this..."Let's make the Pagoda more like the ToW, but not call it the ToW!!!" No offense, but that's EXACTLY what your statements eluded to.

The problem is that it puts undue stress on players to maintain their activity in one place. The problem is that...that wears on them. Just like a mod doing mod work wears on them after a while, the player will need a break from it. What happens? The player will go inactive and the battles will die.

Frustrated opponents will complain. Althanas will die! OH NOES!! Lol. Sorry...

I really honestly think that we need to combine the Pagoda and the ToW into a tiered system that reflects way more rewards but way LESS stress. We should put up a poll for this Pagoda vs ToW issue.

[Rayse Valentino]

Lol. Rayse...you just basically said this..."Let's make the Pagoda more like the ToW, but not call it the ToW!!!" No offense, but that's EXACTLY what your statements eluded to.

Okay, so call it the Theater of War. I don't care. It's better than a low-level palace where people have 1 or 2 battles then level up and become ineligible.


The problem is that it puts undue stress on players to maintain their activity in one place. The problem is that...that wears on them. Just like a mod doing mod work wears on them after a while, the player will need a break from it. What happens? The player will go inactive and the battles will die.

Oh, those poor babies. You mean they have to... post? Somewhat often? I'd agree with making post times a little more lax, but if people want to go away for weeks or months at a time, it's a problem that has nothing to do with Pagoda, Theater of War, or anything. They go inactive and lose their position, or maybe they could put themselves on 'reserve' and go inactive and come back and go back into 'active'. As far as I know, you only have to deal with one battle at a time when you're challenged anyway. People who have problems and can't be online legitimately should have to work their way back up, or have a set amount of time they maintain their position before it gets passed along. Also, I don't think any Grandmasters should be in that role if they're never going to be on. So, no, I have no sympathy.


I really honestly think that we need to combine the Pagoda and the ToW into a tiered system that reflects way more rewards but way LESS stress. We should put up a poll for this Pagoda vs ToW issue.

I agree.

[Max Dirks]

Saxon has a really good idea that I don't think was articulated very well in this thread. This is how I interpreted it (though I could be wrong): technical wins are gone. If a ranking person disappears, they lose their rank. However, no one can accede to that position without beating someone. Meaning, that warrior's replacement (if necessary, because one can always fight a DIFFERENT warrior) is determined by people duking it out. I suspect, of course, that there will be an exception for battles started that are left incomplete (after 10 posts). It's good, I like it. It gives no one a free ride. However, I have one question: how are those participants in the battle vying for the position determined? If that can be answered without a complicated scheme, then it has my approval.
I really honestly think that we need to combine the Pagoda and the ToW into a tiered system that reflects way more rewards but way LESS stress. We should put up a poll for this Pagoda vs ToW issue.The two systems are so distinct it would be silly to combine them. They were meant to compliment one another, not to replace each other.

[Crystal Suncrest]

Oh, those poor babies. You mean they have to... post? Somewhat often? I'd agree with making post times a little more lax, but if people want to go away for weeks or months at a time, it's a problem that has nothing to do with Pagoda, Theater of War, or anything. They go inactive and lose their position, or maybe they could put themselves on 'reserve' and go inactive and come back and go back into 'active'. As far as I know, you only have to deal with one battle at a time when you're challenged anyway. People who have problems and can't be online legitimately should have to work their way back up, or have a set amount of time they maintain their position before it gets passed along. Also, I don't think any Grandmasters should be in that role if they're never going to be on. So, no, I have no sympathy.


Sadly, I have to agree. When you enter the pagoda, you have to be in it for the long haul, while unexpected things may come up, we can't just keep inactive people up there, but it seems unfair to take them down.

Here is what I propose:

Have a 2 week leave area for the pagoda members. The members in there are not ALL inactive members, but only those who have done the following:

1: Chosen an acceptable replacement for themselves, (I'll talk more on this in a bit)

2: Given an acceptable and believable reason why they will be gone.

About the replacement. The replacement has to be somebody who has recently been in the pagoda tier you are in, who is approximately your level, and wgo wasn't kicked off the tier because of inactivity. This person has obviously gained the right to be in that spot and will recieve all the benefits in your leave, HOWEVER, they are only a replacement, and cannot attempt to advance, since they technically don't hold that spot. If you are in the 2 week leave area for longer than 2 weeks, your name gets erased from it and you have to start all over. NO EXCEPTIONS.

Also, if they want to, your replacement can challenge you for your spot if you are a warrior.

One last thing. To avoid people taking advantage of this, you should only get a limited amount of times you can claim your leave.

[Breaker]

Saxon has a really good idea that I don't think was articulated very well in this thread. This is how I interpreted it (though I could be wrong): technical wins are gone. If a ranking person disappears, they lose their rank. However, no one can accede to that position without beating someone. Meaning, that warrior's replacement (if necessary, because one can always fight a DIFFERENT warrior) is determined by people duking it out.

As far as I'm concerned, the implementation of that rule would solve most of the Pagoda's problems. That way only people who want to BATTLE will be hierarchs, as opposed to people who like being listed as a master or warrior but never actually finish a thread.

The ToW was cool, and I'd be glad to see it come back. But I'd still want Dajas Pagoda to be a seperate entity in Scara Brae.

although... it would be really nice if there was a link to the Pagoda subforum on the main page. Easily accessible and visible and all that.

[A Nony Mouse]

As far as I'm concerned, the implementation of that rule would solve most of the Pagoda's problems. That way only people who want to BATTLE will be hierarchs, as opposed to people who like being listed as a master or warrior but never actually finish a thread.

The ToW was cool, and I'd be glad to see it come back. But I'd still want Dajas Pagoda to be a seperate entity in Scara Brae.

although... it would be really nice if there was a link to the Pagoda subforum on the main page. Easily accessible and visible and all that.

I like this idea too.

[Zook Murnig]

I've brought the idea of putting the Dajas Pagoda subforum in Althanas Battles with the Citadel (note: not IN the Citadel, but WITH it) on the mod forum before. It got no traction whatsoever. I'm glad to see some regular members agreeing with the notion.

[Cyrus the virus]

I think the best way to solve the inactivity issue is to bring back the ToW and restore level restrictions on the Pagoda.

How in the world would this solve the issue of people not completing their battles? I read your explanation and it is silly.


It can restore activity to the Pagoda and perhaps get it closer to its roots.

What? You and your roots. Geriatric.

Anyway, if the Pagoda were open to only level 0-1's and was rewritten to justify why weaklings were holding such places of prestige, it'd be neat. Opening the ToW would probably satisfy the bloodthirst of the beyond-level-1's. But as of right now, having a dozen different suggestions in this thread is going to get us nowhere - maybe we should focus on the current issue of making the Pagoda a place where people feel the need to be active. I'm always in favor of EXP penalties :) Nobody else ever is, though. Bastards.

But really, having an inactive Master is no big deal. They are easily replaced and the person who replaces them gets no reward until they've defeated a challenger. It doesn't seem worth all the effort to repair, honestly.

[Slayer of the Rot]

I refuse to write in the ToW unless it undergoes IC changes. All it ever felt to me was a Citadel with a teir system. The season with the crystal shards and the plot wasn't too bad, but since it never finished, I acquired a distaste for the operation as a whole.

I thought the Valkyries for healing and resurrection was retarded. As far as I can remember, there was never really anything gained from becoming tha champion aside from a new title. Again, the crystals was a nice touch, but if it's tried again, it needs to be seen through to the end.

[Christoph]

Well, to start things out on a positive note, I'm glad to see everyone taking an interest in the Pagoda. Down to business -- everyone needs to chill out. I welcome criticism and suggestions, but this thread is getting out of control.

Now, first of all is the accusation of rules abuse by Zook. As many of you pointed out, that is beyond absurd. I forgot to replace Slayer's Warrior spot with Shadar when they switched as an honest oversight, and then figured that I'd get rid of him since he was inactive and serve some time in "the trenches" the Pagoda to keep it moving under the recent surge of activity. That said, if Zook really wants Shadar's spot, he's welcome to have it. All I want are active warriors. Although, I do find it ironic that he'd desire to gain a Hierarch position through the very same methods -- default advancement -- that he has been crusading against. So Zook, it's all yours if Shadar times out. I'm sorry if my actions seemed improper to you.

Moving on to concerns over the actual rules. I agree fully that players shouldn't be able to challenge further up without first winning at least one completed battle. I don't agree that challengers should be robbed of their hard work because their opponent timed out before the battle completed. What I plan to implement is a rule where a challenger can only move up if the battle totaled five posts or more, and if the challenger wins by default in such a way, he/she would have to take on the Hierarch position and win one completed battle before challenging up (In addition to the two week wait). Other suggestions will be taken into consideration, but I'll need to think on them and come up with a viable solution if inactivity persists.

[Cyrus the virus]

Well, I don't find it very fair to have to wait for someone to challenge and fight me, just because the Warrior I challenged didn't accept it. Now I sit there as a Warrior and wait for some scrub to kill? Lame, I say. Fix now!

[Christoph]

Well, you got the Warrior position by default without having to do a thing. Besides, this change also serves the purpose of keeping the poor GM from gettin bum-rushed by power-hungery jerks such as yourself. :p

Besides, since Zook wanted the easy position (as the official last no-post default win before the rules change) I might just challenge you instead to share some luvvin'.

Edit: I also agree that the Pagoda should be out in the open next to the Citadel under Althanas Battles. I'll see about getting that changed.

[Max Dirks]

Again, the crystals was a nice touch, but if it's tried again, it needs to be seen through to the end.Um, it was. However, no one met the qualifying amount of shards necessary to complete the "ultimate" weapon.

[Karuka]

As has been said, this is a thread about the Pagoda. TOW is not the issue here, and it's quite shameful to use a thread whose goal was to discuss concerns with the Pagoda to try and revive long-dead side projects.

If you really want to TOW back, most of you know where to peddle that. But here is not the place.

[Breaker]

I hinted at this before but... could we please have a subforum link to Dajas Pagoda on the main page under Scara Brae? The forum feels so invisible.

[A Nony Mouse]

I hinted at this before but... could we please have a subforum link to Dajas Pagoda on the main page under Scara Brae? The forum feels so invisible.

It is hard to find unless you know where it is... even then I sometimes misplace it.

[Karuka]

Edit: I also agree that the Pagoda should be out in the open next to the Citadel under Althanas Battles. I'll see about getting that changed.

He's working on it, as he already said.