Battle System

[Max Dirks]

Ok, there's enough of you dregs here now to have actual conversation. I'm curious as to the battle systems on your home forum. How do they work? How do you determine who wins? Do you just battle until someone caves? Once you've described your system, I'm also curious to hear some methods on how you are going to adapt to Althanas' battle system.

Come on, impress the battle guru...

[Rodgin Kemph]

There is very little PvP at The Nether Realms. The few instances I can think of, the same person was playing the villain and the hero, so it was written for the benefit of the story.

That being said, we're in the middle of a large battle, and there are several PC's on both sides (one playing a mercenary band with troops on both sides) and that has had some ad hoc rules placed to make it fair. This will truely be a chess match with a member of both sides (myself and pheonix) overseeing and making sure no one starts godmodding.

So, in summary, ussually the battles are predetermined, but this one is new to us and I'm not entierly sure how it will work.

As far as adapting to here, I'm not sure. I haven't posted in something like this ever, though I've RPed battles since I started. I'll just have to play it by ear.

[Zieg dil' Tulfried]

Well, basically we fight until the end of the thread, then an awesome judge comes and uses a rubric that is based off your writing style, the story itself, the flow, clarity, etc. Whichever person has the highest score wins! And gets giant bags of EXP and gold.

...

But you should know that already.

...

[noodleguy]

Yah, it's this cool system where there's, like, some super cool judges and a rubric and stuff.

I think.

[Tainted Bushido]

There is very little PvP at The Nether Realms. The few instances I can think of, the same person was playing the villain and the hero, so it was written for the benefit of the story.

That being said, we're in the middle of a large battle, and there are several PC's on both sides (one playing a mercenary band with troops on both sides) and that has had some ad hoc rules placed to make it fair. This will truely be a chess match with a member of both sides (myself and pheonix) overseeing and making sure no one starts godmodding.

So, in summary, ussually the battles are predetermined, but this one is new to us and I'm not entierly sure how it will work.

As far as adapting to here, I'm not sure. I haven't posted in something like this ever, though I've RPed battles since I started. I'll just have to play it by ear.

In short run it like this. Work with your partner definitely and if possible your opponents. The idea is to have a cohesive story between you two. Then try and write that story as well as possible. Now, I know some people may think that there is no point but here this out. When the story is set in stone, its the way you tell it that enriches the experience. If you're the better writer, its far easier to write when you have something to work with, rather than try to tromp through your opponents. Much as you do on your site's predetermine it, and just write as well as you can. IN the end its scores that determine who moves on.

[Logan]

Shh...don't give away our secrets! :-p

Like he said, the most fluid stories are ones discussed and worked out in advance. Even battles. So take time to work with your partner and your opponents to come up with at least a semblence of an idea of what you'd like to see happen. In the end you'll find things flow better and have more purpose to every action.

[Lord Synical]

I take pointy object.
I stick pointy object in enemy.
Battle over.

[Christoph]

Since winners are determined by score, it's much more desirable to allow you character to be defeated ICly than it would be elsewhere, if by doing so it creates a better story.

[Logan]

Death posts are fun...heh.

[Lord Synical]

... No pointy object?

[Christoph]

Oh, there are plenty of pointy objects.

[Lord Synical]

Excellent.

[The Whistle]

Alright, I think what Synz was trying to say is that on Dark Rain, PvP fights are mostly done during roleplays. Thus, fights are not judged, and the winner is not who writes better. The winner is whoever doesn't get stuck with a pointy object. For plot and realism purposes.

[Christoph]

That, too, may happen here. During quests (read: threads that aren't designated as battles) PCs can fight with each other, though the difference is that said PvP fight isn't the primary/only focal point of the thread, and as such there are no winners or losers and the thread is given a single, overall score.

[The Whistle]

Yeah. Except we don't have judging.

[Christoph]

Most places don't. ;)

[Ran Iji]

The key is that the system needs to promote the purpose of the tournament. Why are the players coming here, to write, or to fight? Open ended rubrics often promote needless writing about trite details that do little but hamper the pace of a fight. Sure, the information in the posts are nice to have, but if an editor was quick with his pen, most of their posts would be removed. During the Tournament of Legends, this was a -massive- issue. The posts were less about fighting and more about attempting to look good while fighting.

Often times, when a player found that the individual they were fighting was better at them in combat, they would begin to stall the fight through OOC and IC means. This happened to my team countless times during the tournament. Furthermore, the lack of focus in the writing contributes to judging woes, since more is written. The goal needs to be to have a concise FOCUS of the tournament. I would dare say, a word limit might be a nice addition to the rules to prevent such dawdling.

The in character pacing would be far easier to obtain if everyone was reserved to say, 750 words or so, maximum.

My suggestions:
1. Decide if interrupts are going to be allowed. Often times people begin to lose sight of when their opponent would be able to 'act' and write volumes of actions that are going to be negated by a simple step. Do you force the character to be a moron who stands still for a minute, or do you allow them to act?
2. Word Limit.
3. Give more points in the rubric for actually demonstrating combat knowledge if this is meant to be a display of fighting knowledge. Make people -want- to win by taking out their opponent, it is a tournament, after all.
4. Impose harsh penalties for timeliness. Role playing is all about staying on task, and if someone cannot post in time to allow the role play to come into fruition. One way to do this is to say that unless a thread has 12 posts, the winner will be the team that has posted the most timely. This prevents the judge from having to view nothing but introductory prose, rather than a fight.
5. Make a thread for individuals to post about the unique properties of their characters so they can begin to come to compromises. Is Elementalism = Magic? Etc.
6. Impose power limits to what characters are capable of doing. Real world examples are typically the best way to instill the limits on individuals. Ie, you cannot Fireball a city in one turn.
7. Make every team keep a 'Cliff Notes' for their thread to submit to the judge when it's time for their match to be completed. This will make it easier on the judge to figure out the pacing / limit the need to wait for answers on questions.
8. Make it -very- clear what kind of tournament this is going to be. One of writing, combat, or both. Even if it is both, set the expectation level to which side it leans towards...

Also, I do have documentation on fighting systems if necessary, from a series of articles I wrote called 'Grey Area' that I'd be willing to contribute.

[Max Dirks]

Did you check the rubric and my battle tip thread?

We've actually already incorporated a lot of your ideas, strangely enough...

[Christoph]

Indeed, and most of the rest we leave to common sense. I know that it can be argued that a lot of people might not possess said common sense, but that would invariably result in lower scores for those who lack it.

[Ran Iji]

Did you check the rubric and my battle tip thread?

We've actually already incorporated a lot of your ideas, strangely enough...

Nope, not at all. I was just throwing out suggestions during my lunch break. ^_~;

Christoph, just remember the saying... Common Sense isn't that common. You cannot rely on it to govern a tournament. =p

[ryuhasigawa]

Christoph, just remember the saying... Common Sense isn't that common. You cannot rely on it to govern a tournament. =p

lol, and strangely enough, Ran Iji is right! common sense isn't all that common after all! XD

as far as keeping cliff notes, that would be a little hard for me to do since I'm always seemingly typing from a library computer nowdays XD and with there being no Word, I find it difficult to go through and save all my progress. If I could copy and paste from this thread to another, however, I might be able to pull that off.

[Ran Iji]

After reading the rubric, out of the 100 point scale only Pacing and Action have anything to do with the actual combat, which puts it around 30 points total. It is of my personal opinion, that speech should take a backseat in the tournament and be removed from the equation. Factor their chatting into Story telling, at best. I don't see why it should remotely be 10% of their total score. I'd switch the free floating 5 points over to Action, increasing it to 20 points, or 1/5th of the total rubric, and then the remaining 5 points over to pacing, increasing it to 20. Between the two, now you have 40 of your points all in how you go about 'business' in character.

I don't recall Time being part of the rubric. Personally, I'd be anal about it and make it a percentage of their total grade. This means even the best would get hit -hard- by losing points due to timeliness. Five points [assuming it'd be around that range] is nothing to a great writer/fighter, but if you make it a building percentage of their total score....

Also, to keep Cliff notes...
Google Documents. Best thing ever, you can share the document with your partner.

[Tainted Bushido]

After reading the rubric, out of the 100 point scale only Pacing and Action have anything to do with the actual combat, which puts it around 30 points total. It is of my personal opinion, that speech should take a backseat in the tournament and be removed from the equation. Factor their chatting into Story telling, at best. I don't see why it should remotely be 10% of their total score. I'd switch the free floating 5 points over to Action, increasing it to 20 points, or 1/5th of the total rubric, and then the remaining 5 points over to pacing, increasing it to 20. Between the two, now you have 40 of your points all in how you go about 'business' in character.

I don't recall Time being part of the rubric. Personally, I'd be anal about it and make it a percentage of their total grade. This means even the best would get hit -hard- by losing points due to timeliness. Five points [assuming it'd be around that range] is nothing to a great writer/fighter, but if you make it a building percentage of their total score....

Also, to keep Cliff notes...
Google Documents. Best thing ever, you can share the document with your partner.

You changes make sense if the point of the battle was the IC victor.

However this is a story tournament. I functions a bit differently as the shift goes from being the best fighter, to telling the best story. Now I know ToL left a bitter taste in your mouth, but a lot of your frustration was because people Just stopped posting. Had it been more of a story focus, you would have probably seen more fights actually reach a conclusion.

[Ran Iji]

However, how important is 'talking'? What happens to the characters who simply -don't talk- by their nature in combat? They are automatically put at a disadvantage, not to mention that talking tends to f00k with the pace of battle massively. The points from it would be best in a general catch all such as Action/Pacing. I suppose, I'm of the opinion that if the fighting is pathetic and without desire, then the writing is dull and listless.

Also, my proposed changes don't make it an automatic victory for the winner of the in character combat. It simply means that people are going to have to do more than just write long winded posts in attempts to hit the major points on the rubric. Someone could ultimately win in character by doing an incredibly lame move, but the character that took the hit, rather than compromising their character, would gain the edge in points via Action.

[Mathias]

This tournament is being held on Althanas, by Althanas standards. First and foremost, we are a writing workshop set up like a game, using roleplaying as a tool for helping writers better themselves. Therefore, it is more about the quality of the writing and the effort put into it than anything else. Even in a thread about combat - the actual action is meant only to supplement the overall story.

The winner and loser of the fight, as far as in-character standards go, doesn't matter at all. You can lose, but in the end, if you can lose more gracefully than they can win, you've essentially won the battle.

The point isn't about short posts or long posts - it's about making it feel right. So if it feels like it calls for lots of setting or dialogue or action, then that's what it will get.

Also, as far as your question concerning the dialogue score - talking is important in a fight. Witty banter, quick, snappy remarks and internal thoughts, and even a lack of dialogue is all a part of the equation of your character. Saying or not saying something should be indicative of the character you are trying to portray and the persona you are trying to write.

What it really comes down to and is most easily summed up as - is not the quality of the 'fight,' per se, but the quality of the writing.

[Ataraxis]

Hey there Ran, glad to see you around these parts.

Points are awarded for Dialogue not in quantity, but in quality and relevance. If your character is mute, the dialogue would relate to how well he conveys information to his teammate (and at times, to his opponents). You'd actually get more points from having your mute fighter flipping the bird than from some other character saying 'fuck you'.

We also have had our fair share of taciturn characters who, for the purpose of combat, do not speak when it is not warranted. They received their points in dialogue for interior monologue, thoughts and introspection, as well as for talking whenever they actually find a moment where doing so would be highly relevant. The term 'battle' is no excuse to completely ignore the category of dialogue for the sake of writing an endless series of action sequences. Moreover, the beginning and end of a fight, especially in an interdimensional competition, are good moments for dialogue between teammates (for sharing tactics and general thoughts), if not between opposing teams.

Let's imagine a battle where there's absolutely no communication between either opposing teams or teammates, and where none of the writers even deign to write what their characters are thinking: an analogy of such a battle would be watching a DBZ episode on Mute - no, reading the script to a DBZ episode that only contains the action sequences and the parts where their eyes twitch and their veins bulge. That's the kind of thread where the Dialogue Category holds no relevance. That's the kind of thread that's very likely not going to get many praises here in the ToC.

Basically, you seem to consider Dialogue only as the explicit conveying of information between opponents through words. That is not how judges will see it. The Dialogue Category in the Judging Rubric does mention that if it is fitting for your character, then it is good. To prevent any further misunderstanding, I will add in precisions as to what speech and dialogue entail on Althanas - it has always been a flexible category, yet one that cannot be put aside.

[Christoph]

Ataraxis is pretty much spot-on. I think it would serve best to consider the Dialogue category as gauging communication in general (both between characters and to the reader via internal dialogue)

Also, to say that only Action and Pacing (which still make up 3/10 of the overall score) are the only categories that represent the combat itself would be a mistake. Take Setting, for instance. In some degrees, setting points are awarded for great imagery in describing the arena, but just as important is how the setting in interacted with. IOW: does it affect the fighters? Do the fighters use the setting in their battle? Etc. Also, Clarity is often influenced by the combat elements of the battles. Writers who have a strong base of combat knowledge will be able to write attacks and defensive maneuvers that make more sense to the reader, thus gaining a higher clarity score.

On the topic of common sense: of course not everyone has it, but we prefer to give players the chance to use common sense instead of protecting them from themselves. ;)

[Shadowed]

GUA roleplaying is, to put it in the most basic sense, roleplaying for the sake of roleplaying. The thread starter determines any specifics - for example, I'm currently involved in a 1v1 fight with one of Ebivoulya's characters. I'm sure a lot of you know him. Anyways, the goal in that fight isn't to win or lose, but simply to enjoy writing, to push ourselves to the brink of our creative and physical writing abilities. Due to the strength of the two characters, it will probably end in an IC draw, by virtue of neither being able to truly defeat the other in reasonable form.

We don't use any set rubrics, unless one is specifically created for a tournament or thread. For example, in the ToL, we used a rubric based off of originality, writing ability, and characterization - an IC "win" meant nothing if you scored lower than your opponent on the rubric, which seems to be how this tournament will be fun. I greatly prefer that, as anyone can play an ultra-powerful character, but only a few can play them well, and write well in the process.

[Christoph]

That's exactly it. While you don't necessarily need a rubric to improve as a writer, it certainly helps, and our battle system has eliminated the power-gaming that plagued so many of the forums I used to inhabit.

[noodleguy]

Also, to keep Cliff notes...
Google Documents. Best thing ever, you can share the document with your partner.

I'm going to second that. The single best way to share stuff with your partner, beyond a doubt.

All you need is a Google account, and those are free.

[Phoenix]

We don't have a system per se... its all kinda plot driven I guess. Some of the staff are developing a battle system but its for a NR board that is not actually linked to the RPG really, and may never get off the ground, lol.

[Ran Iji]

I suppose I deviated from the actual question in the thread in an attempt to aid the rubric. Ah well, it happens. If I was to enter the tournament*, I'd adjust simply by writing exactly as I would normally. The main thing is that instead of consulting my opponent with the issues with their defenses, I'd just save it in a text file for the judge to review at a later date. My writing has always been above the usual curve of the normal forum writer, so I wouldn't add or subtract anything that I normally do.

I wouldn't cater to the rubric, or write needlessly long posts; I'd simply write the usual post that I feels captures the moment. Unfortunately, during ToL, I was forced to write far more than I cared to, since we only had a few posts to please the judges. -.-;

*Ran Iji will not be participating in this tournament. He hasn't role played for over a year and was merely directed to this forum by Dirks. Since Ran has downtime at work, and nothing else to do forum wise at the moment aside from posting on Smashboards, Ran has decided to spew out a few OOC posts here for the betterment of the experience of everyone.

[Lord Saladin]

Hailing from Roleplay Gateway, my battle system is entirely free form. Generally, fights are not judged as they are here on Althanas, but take on a course of action whereby each player tries to, essentially, 'out wit' the other. In doing so, and careful placement of movements, you basically 'trap' the other player so as there is no viable way of evading/blocking an attack.

I'll be entirely honest, and I am guilty of this also, and say that a lot of the time, both on forums, and on IRC (Where I do a lot of fighting, when I have the time) time plays a vital and often contentious part of fighting. Aspects of fights are heavily debated about over time. Let me give a quick, brief example:


-=Throws a punch=-


-=Evades the thrown punch by stepping back=-


((OOC: You couldn't possibly have stepped back from that punch, there simply wouldn't have been enough time for you to do so. The punch connected.


((OOC: Don't be a moron, of course the punch could be evaded. Stop being a noob.))

And on it goes... I once was witness to two people arguing for two hours on distance and time, and whether an attack would connect or not.

Again, as I said, I too have been guilty of participating in such arguments. My haunts online, specifically IRC, and the Grand Tournament League, are VERY competitive, and victors are decided by who wins the fight in an IC sense. This competitiveness, I think, is perhaps the cause of such arguments.

Undoubtedly, these events, when they do unfurl, reduce the enjoyment level of fights to approximately zero. And, I lose interest when such take place.

For me, RP fighting came about from my love of RP, and I have always maintained, in a community where fighting and RP is considered very different things, that I am an RPer first, fighter second. As such, I love the aspects in fights of character development, plot and environment, whereas I have seen others focus solely on the character and the actions they take. Like a puppeteer making a lifeless doll move.

RP can be, and SHOULD be, I feel, an integral part of a fight. After all, a fight is, and can be, a story all of its own.

This, I feel, is why I am so enthusiastic about the ToC - a tournament where the better storyteller wins? That is right up my street! :) If I could, I know I would try to 'convert' those with whom I fight and RP to such a system. However, I doubt it would ever reach a popularity where people would be willing to forsake an In Character victory in favour of a victory of writing ability. Perhaps it is a case of "You can't teach an old dog new tricks."

Either way, I am certainly looking forward to a tournament, and series of fights, where the story is the precedent factor, rather than a cause of annoyance in my opponent.

[lPulse]

Huo Yuan Jia, the Chinese hero of martial arts of the early 1900`s, said that one must curb one`s thirst for victory. Less OOC thirst for victory makes better RP fights! In other words: don`t be so anxious to win the combat itself that you become a proud, haughty godmoder.

*has spent enough time as a proud, haughty godmoder to know the truth of this by now*

[Atle]

Props to Huo Yuan Jia for his wise words of temperance, and Pulse for applying them correctly. The point is to work OOCly with your partner AND opponents to make for an extraordinary bit of writing. And try to outdo them at the same time.

Competition- it's healthy.

[NightCast]

Hahahahahahaha.

Ran Iji, good to see you. I'm DarkStrike, from GUA. And here I thought I might have had a heart attack if you had entered into the tournament.

Ah... ToL. Fond memories of committing suicide for taking that as a modding position. I swear I preferred Divine Salvation modding, with its tedious rubric and terribly flawed and cliché story line. The only memories that I have of ToL that are fond are Twisted Malice Darkbane and his ability to sow chaos and Dancing Peasant and his bizarrely satirical nonsense.

On a more serious note, minus the sarcasm, it's been far too long Ran, and how fares Clowd?

[Mabus]

I come from C/G at RPGC. For the most part, there's a pretty narrow general selection of fairness and taste, and instinctively and from sampling of a thread, the general reader and RPer can usually figure out who's winning, and if one of the RPers is being a cheeser. There's strict rules against controlling another person's character without their permission, although NPCs are generally fair game, and treated like scenery. Firearms are considered effective against most opponents, although we have our veritable deities. Most battles seem to end in stalemates, although myself and several others have been willing to bow out intelligently if it seems that the storyline would benefit from their victory. If we've got someone who's obviously pretty much...dead, despite their objections, we have a mod make a judgment.

No real system. It's all pretty simple. Won't say it's perfect, but it works, and minimizes overhead. Often times, some storylines will involve battles the outcome of which was already agreed upon by the RPers.

[Isis Ixidar]

Two or more people write.
People who stop posting in the thread get KO'ed.
People who stay keep going until all parties agree thread is over.
Judge comes in and decides winner based on who was the better writer(description, creativity, tactics, etc. etc.)
Storyline sits in a corner and sobs because no one cares about it.

[Teal]

Over at Dark Rain we fight it out until someone loses, and then set up a voting thread. The person with the most votes officially wins the fight, so although you might defeat your opponent in the battle thread, you can still "lose" because you god moded.