Freedom of speech? [Archive]

Sword-for-Hire

12-23-08, 04:18 AM

Or ignorant religious fanatics?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80453547/

Really now...if you look up The Westboro Baptist Church, you'll see what their history has been. Why do they feel they need to impose their will on other people? And in such a negative way?

I feel to each his own...but if my cousin died in the war and they came to picket....I'd go to jail for murdering them with their own picket signs. I don't go to Topeka, Kansas and take a dump on their front steps. Why do they think its so necessary to bother people like that?

Hell, at least the Amish don't run around in buggies trying to make people stop using electricity.

Taskmienster

12-23-08, 04:51 AM

I was going to comment, but am really mad about not just the songs, but the signs more than anything else...

Kially Gaith

12-23-08, 05:02 AM

Kool-aid, Kool-aid, Kool-aid...

...

If you get that, you totally win.

IRO-Bot

12-23-08, 05:05 AM

I must Win = Heaven's Gate

Kially Gaith

12-23-08, 05:07 AM

I must Win = Heaven's Gate

Can I interest you in Kool-aid?

Sword-for-Hire

12-23-08, 05:22 AM

I was going to comment, but am really mad about not just the songs, but the signs more than anything else...

Yea tell me about it. I had to pause 25 seconds in. Couldn't believe it.

And Kool-Aid? What does that have to do with anything? :confused:

IRO-Bot

12-23-08, 05:28 AM

I believe it was a play on the religious fanatics line, given the cult Heaven's Gate I believe it was all took their own lives by drinking what was essentially poison blue Kool Aid

Terminus Mortis

12-23-08, 01:24 PM

There's no way they could convict me for assault once the jury sees the video. What is wrong with these people? Even worse, they're raising children! And when I saw the sign about the soldiers I honestly wanted to kill that little prick. Are we sure these aren't the people responsible for September 11th?

Arsène

12-23-08, 01:58 PM

I agree. Let us respond to their hate by murdering them.

That will show the world how much better we really are.

Sword-for-Hire

12-23-08, 02:07 PM

I agree. Let us respond to their hate by murdering them.

That will show the world how much better we really are.

And that's why these people make other lives miserable.

Arsène

12-23-08, 02:19 PM

And that's why these people make other lives miserable.

They make other people's lives miserable because their leader is insane, and all of the followers are too deeply brainwashed to think otherwise. This group isn't anything new, they've been around for a very long time, and this video is probably the least of their terrible actions. Mathew Sheppard? They protested his funeral, and they've been trying to build a statue commemorating his time in hell.

Anytime a family member rejects their beliefs, they're quickly expelled from the family and never spoken to again.

However, even with all of this, we shouldn't care a damn. Every time you get riled up about this, you're giving them attention. You're making their cause more wildly known, and you're attracting a new member or two to their group.

Ignore them. They have every right to say what they want, no matter how insane. If they ever step over that line, they can be arrested. Until then, just forget about them. They have no real power, their movement is universally hated, and their group is the punchline to so many jokes.

Just take solace in the fact that you're more well liked than the entire group combined, and that you'll live to see the day the leader dies of a painful, old person related illness.

Séreméla

12-23-08, 02:40 PM

I would just like to point out that to add to their stupidity....Pagan's don't see or use the Christmas tree as an idol, or any symbol to celebrate our holidays....lol figured I'd defend my people a little bit there....that being said....I will be returning to althanas soon, I don't know if it will be with this character or a new one....but soon....lol

Sword-for-Hire

12-23-08, 03:12 PM

Oh yea, Arsene, I've read all about these people before. They've been dealt a large blow in a court case that awarded the family of a fallen soldier about $5 million. Liens were placed on the churches and Sr. Phelps law firm. When he dies, it'll be a great day for people all over the U.S. that have had to deal with these lunatics. The only thing I disagree with you on the point is trying to ignore people like them. Ignore them for too long and they grow to big to be stopped.

These people spending around $250,000 a year traveling around the country picketing funerals, theaters, and anything they feel is an act of a vengeful God. People who aren't directly effected by their presence can easily say, "Just leave them be. They'll run out of steam soon enough." Not the people who have to watch them hold signs up at their son's/daughter's funeral with things say "He died as a Fag!" "God Hates Fags!" "More Soldiers need to Die!" "Soldiers Burn in Hell!"

I like that people stage counter protests. I love the fact that 1,000 students drove off WBC members who tried to picket a funeral of victims from a fire. People that do are what keep this country alive. I'm not saying we need to gut every WBC member and display their entrails to their small children (although the thought has crossed my mind on a few occasions), but taking action is a must when dealing with anyone who deliberately tries to impose their belief system on another person.

If they stayed in their church and sang songs of Hell and Fags all day long and didn't go out and ruin someone's already awful day, I'd say, let them be crazy. They like doing that in their walls. How long would it be before some really loose cannons of the WBC started actually hurting people? (Accounts already state some shove and spit on people.)

I hate to quote a fictional character, but Yoda said it best. "Hate leads to suffering."

Rebellion

12-23-08, 03:27 PM

My mind's still trying to comprehend that they're serious.

Kially Gaith

12-23-08, 06:02 PM

They make other people's lives miserable because their leader is insane, and all of the followers are too deeply brainwashed to think otherwise. This group isn't anything new, they've been around for a very long time, and this video is probably the least of their terrible actions. Mathew Sheppard? They protested his funeral, and they've been trying to build a statue commemorating his time in hell.

Anytime a family member rejects their beliefs, they're quickly expelled from the family and never spoken to again.

However, even with all of this, we shouldn't care a damn. Every time you get riled up about this, you're giving them attention. You're making their cause more wildly known, and you're attracting a new member or two to their group.

Ignore them. They have every right to say what they want, no matter how insane. If they ever step over that line, they can be arrested. Until then, just forget about them. They have no real power, their movement is universally hated, and their group is the punchline to so many jokes.

Just take solace in the fact that you're more well liked than the entire group combined, and that you'll live to see the day the leader dies of a painful, old person related illness.

I didn't know sniper rifles caused old people illnesses other than 'Death'.

Failing that, a Worms (TM!) Holy Hand Grenade would be the best course of action.

Damion Shargath

12-23-08, 06:15 PM

These are the kind of people my character kills for their blissful idiocy.

Saxon

12-23-08, 06:33 PM

These people sound like real dicks. Anybody who belittles soldiers and calls them 'lazy, incompetent idiots who cannot find work else where' are no friends of mine.

Apodidae

12-23-08, 06:45 PM

Part of the price of free speech is tolerating douche bags that use their right to belittle, insult, and hurt. So it is both: freedom of speech and ignorant fanaticism. With the first you're likely to find the latter, and both is better than neither IMO.

Rebellion

12-23-08, 06:45 PM

Saxon, I must say this before I explode. Your quotes in your signature just rocked my soul. Especially since I've seen the Night Watch.
I bow down before your awesomeness.

As Sword-For-Hire so plainly put, its much easier to ignore them when you aren't the one being pestered and bothered. If they only did their stuff inside their little walls, well, then of course. But when they put it out in public, someone needs to do something.

I suggest a nuke.
Mmmm....blissful destruction....
Erm.
Right.

Inkfinger

12-23-08, 06:49 PM

Eh. These people are one of my sore points. They were going to be in the area I live in following a shooting at an Amish schoolhouse, demonstrating at the funeral of the little girls killed, and I was fully planning on skipping classes just so I could be part of a human wall between the funeral and them. And possibly, yanno, turn a blind eye if a rock or two sorta happened to maybe be flung.

Then someone traded an hour of radio time with the idiot who calls himself their leader to get them to leave the families alone. Personally, I thought it was giving the guy more attention than he needed, but really it all came down to paying a loser an hour of attention or making already sad families even sadder, and in the long run was less attention than the media coverage of said protest would have caused...

I find it hilarious that people from all walks of life stage the counter protests, really, and a much better example of mankind.

Tsukiko

12-23-08, 11:08 PM

Mathias

12-23-08, 11:59 PM

I think it's people like this that really test the strength of the Constitution. I love the quote, "Freedom of Speech protects the speech that we hate more than it protects the speech that we like."

As much as I hate them and want to take a blunt object to their faces... I know Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. would roll over in their graves. These people are really just more annoying than anything. Even entertaining, really. They pale in comparison to actual Neo-Nazis and violent hate mongers. Sticks and stones, right?

Kially Gaith

12-24-08, 01:48 AM

I swear, if they were in England, they would NOT DARE do this. We have awesome minded homicidal maniacs. ^_^

It's a pathetic shame to see people like this so brainwashed that they go out of their way to HURT others.

I thought a Christian rule was to 'love thy neighbour'.

Tainted Bushido

12-24-08, 02:19 AM

Séreméla

12-24-08, 05:37 AM

I kinda wish they would come to my area....give me a chance to see what FMJ ammo and my new scope can really do from my old russian SKS....teeheee I heart my scouting rifle.....

>.>
<.<
>.>
I mean...violence is wrong....yeah...unless you shoot them in the face...then theres no violence, just murder....violence would be them coming after me and trying to fight me...that would be fun too...lol....I'm a sick demented little girl

Apodidae

12-24-08, 06:48 AM

I dunno but doing that crap outside a funeral count as fighting words? I mean that stuff sounds like it would provoke a law abiding sane person to violence. I do remember that Fighting Words are not protected under constitution.

anyways it's disgusting and I hope Shiva comes and kicks their asses and sends them back to the lord for their eternal bath in the lake of fire.

That's true. It seems like classifying their type of speech as "fighting words" is pretty straightforward. I wonder if it being a religious thing has any bearing on the law though.

Mathias

12-24-08, 10:07 AM

It doesn't classify as fighting words, as far as I know. It's not their honest and explicit intention to incite any sort of violence. They really are just racist, homophobic, hate-filled idiots and they are expressing their distorted religious belief that God truly hates everybody except for them. It classifies as hate speech, but there's still not a lot that can be done about it.

Tristam

12-24-08, 10:20 AM

My personal favorite counter protest involved taking pledges that for every minute the Westboro people protested, a dollar would be donated to a local gay advocacy group. They cut it short. :D

Apodidae

12-24-08, 10:28 AM

I don't think fighting words necessarily have to be intentional, but I'm not sure really. Anyway, I don't think this guy's "church" has been found guilty of it, though he has been convicted of things like invasion of privacy and "intentional infliction of emotional distress," which sounds somewhat similar. Other laws have been passed in some states concerning protesting at or near funerals. They're a bunch of dicks, and I hope they're idiocy burns out in my lifetime. I'm not holding my breath though.

Lacchi

12-24-08, 11:06 AM

Apodidae

12-24-08, 11:59 AM

Wow, I'm confused by all of this and am feeling a little sheltered at the moment. I can't remember ever earing of any of this... Ever! Of course, I might have simply gotten bored and stopped listening, I do that sometimes... But still... Now, would someone explain to me who these people are and what you are talking about? Please? Also, I'm not good with religions, but don't catholics have priests, and isn't there a shirt in that crowd somewhere that says 'Priests rape boys.com'? See, this is why I'm confused... And what's Fighting words?

They're a bunch of hate-filled individuals that call themselves the "Westboro Baptist Church." See Wikipedia for a description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church. They're definitely not Catholics, and I don't think they're really considered Baptists either. I'm not too familiar with all the branches of Christianity, but they say they are a denomination of it even though others seem to disagree with them.

Anyway, "fighting words" are a legal classification of words that can be reasonably expected to cause violence. They reason they're important is because they're not protected by the First Amendment of the Constitution and can therefore be punished.

Lacchi

12-27-08, 09:30 AM

Hmmm, well, thanks for clarifying, but that just confuses me more. Not you, but them... *lesigh* Some people are far too strange for their own good. Anywho, them being in the States might explain a little bit about why I've never heard of them before... That, and my pathetic dislike for listening to the news.

Psycho Chef

12-27-08, 12:36 PM

lPulse

12-27-08, 08:42 PM

Westboro Baptist Church is disgusting. I suppose they're also forgetting to read their Bibles- if they haven't rewritten them yet- in verses like "Love thy neighbour as thyself" and "hate evil" (not people) and "as you sow so shall you reap."

And like someone else in this thread already said: WBC is raising children! UGH! Someone stop them! T.T

Anyway as an Army hopeful and child of two Marines I`d have to box their men. I miss the Old West.. in that time one could punch people on the nose and that was alright. >.>

If those wack jobs were in one of my platoons I would have them digging latrines and doing pushups and flutter kicks and pull ups with their noses plugged and one hand tied behind their backs and on earth full of fire ants and that with unfair time limits resulting in intensified repetitions of the things they already couldn`t do until they became so mentally and physically frustrated that their psyches cracked. Quarterdeck ftw.

Lacchi

12-28-08, 08:11 AM

Where am I from? Well, I suppose that would be my own little world. lol Nah, I'm from Canada! Awesome country, whoo! *ahem* Which doesn't really explain why something in the states didn't reach me, it's more that I just don't pay much attention to anything on the news or anywhere, really. So, yeah... I'm just sheltered... lol Or maybe I have heard of these people before, cuz they do sound at least a little familiar, I just haven't remembered if their who I heard about and didn't hear all that much that caught my interest, so yeah...

They're odd...

Death's Nephew

12-28-08, 12:35 PM

Odd indeed. They actually tried to picket a funeral in Canada once...and for some reason the group going never made it to their destination. I don't think they were heard from again.

Watch out guys, the moose up there mean business.

Damion Shargath

12-28-08, 06:23 PM

Westboro Baptist Church is disgusting. I suppose they're also forgetting to read their Bibles- if they haven't rewritten them yet- in verses like "Love thy neighbour as thyself" and "hate evil" (not people) and "as you sow so shall you reap."

[...]

If those wack jobs were in one of my platoons I would have them digging latrines and doing pushups and flutter kicks and pull ups with their noses plugged and one hand tied behind their backs and on earth full of fire ants and that with unfair time limits resulting in intensified repetitions of the things they already couldn`t do until they became so mentally and physically frustrated that their psyches cracked. Quarterdeck ftw.

I see a contradiction, does anyone else?

But I agree, those people are morons :)

Lacchi

12-29-08, 05:28 AM

Nope, I see no contradiction, but then, that only means that I've not yet been enlightened... What is it?

And yeah, I just finished reading all their picketing places and attempts. lol Canada was the last one mentioned, but apparently it was too big for them. Or yes, the secretly carnivorous moose got to them. lol Our famous Newfoundland speedbumps, they are also famous for going after trains during the rutting season and sometimes derailing them, so I could definitely see them taking offense at this WBC group. We Canadians are actually worse than everyone gives us credit for. Really!

Mathias

12-29-08, 10:49 AM

He was pointing out the three quotes and their message of tolerance and love, and then pointing out the subsequent intolerance thus displayed.

I mean, as bad as they are, violence and such wouldn't work against them. It'd only give them a bigger soap box to stand on and a crutch in the law to use.

Hate only breeds hate.

Death's Nephew

12-29-08, 11:45 AM

Sure am glad we gave those pesky Nazis back in World War II hugs and kisses instead of bombs and bullets. I mean, hahaha, where would we be now if we had responded with violence?

Oh wait...

Mathias

12-29-08, 12:00 PM

Lacchi

12-29-08, 02:32 PM

*falls out of chair from laughing so hard* Now that was funny!

Nah, you know what you need to do, you need to tell them all to go on a religious retreat to, um... The Bermuda Triangle... Yeah, that'll work, they can picket there complaining about the attention that place is getting, bcause obviously it is the retribution of god, proving that he hates, ummm, gay fishes and, umm, pilots and the like. Yeah... Or just make them all eat McDonalds for as long as possible, I hear that's unhealthy for you...

Terminus Mortis

12-29-08, 03:19 PM

It's like Stalin said. "Death solves all problems. No man, no problem."

Though realistically a Westboro pseudo-genocide is a bit out of the question.

That Nazi thing was good though. Got a good laugh out of that.

No, what we need is to try them for disturbing the peace and instigating violence after they picket a poor soldier's funeral claiming God hated him. There's no way in hell we could lose that case.

Enther

12-30-08, 04:19 AM

I recognized the woman heading the people on the video from an interview I had watched a while ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRorH1HeyQg

There's her logic.

Max Dirks

12-30-08, 09:42 AM

Reiko, I'm not sure "incitement to violence," or "clear and present danger" is the current legal standard for "fighting words." The Brandenburg standard is "immanent lawless action," which I feel posting an offensive video on YouTube does not meet. On the other hand, if the police stopped (not prevented) these people from picketing at a funeral for a Marine, that might meet the standard. Of course, what police department, city or state wants to get boggled down in a long 1st amendment trial?

Support your troops, ignore these fools.

lPulse

12-30-08, 02:58 PM

Le sigh. There is no contradiction Damion. =S The Bible did not say to quarterdeck WBC on ground full of fire ants. That was MY idea. Logic ftw. ;)

However in case you still wanna go that route- Proverbs 13:24 "He that spareth the rod hateth his son." That means love disciplines. A long shot from my idea of making WBC do pushups in fire ant hills but you get the point... or do you?

I see a contradiction, does anyone else?

Terminus Mortis

12-30-08, 04:26 PM

I like those phrases. "Imminent lawless action." "Clear and present danger." It reminds me of a directive my friend was given when he trained for a Marine SOC unit. He told me their orders in the field were to "Locate, identify, and render harmless enemies of the United States and of the free world." It's really just a more eloquent way of saying "Terminate with extreme prejudice."

Taskmienster

12-30-08, 04:41 PM

"Terminate with extreme prejudice" was put in Army terms as "You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to eliminate the threat". Another words, hurt them and don't kill them, then watch a bunch others come to help them and shoot but don't kill them too. It's sick, but that's what it reminded me of too. haha

Death's Nephew

12-30-08, 05:29 PM

Because the Westboro Church is totally a fascist nation with an immediately immobilized army capable of destroying half of Europe in one fell swoop.

We must respond with swift action, lest we lose our American way of life to those dictators!

lol

Nice way to dodge my point. You do realize Hitler didn't seize power of Germany over night right? He did it over time with lots and lots of talking and promising. My point was that when you let people like Hitler do what they want when they want to, you get major catastrophes.

Never said that we should drop bombs on their churches, but standing by idly doing nothing is amazingly stupid and weak-minded. The quote "Speak softly but carry a big stick" doesn't stand the test of our generations for no reason.

Mathias

12-30-08, 05:49 PM

I was pointing out how I think it's a rather illogical comparison. And he didn't take it over in a night, but Blitzkrieg happened pretty damn quick.

But that aside... I didn't see not to take action. I said that it would be unwise to take violent action. Within the bounds of law and decency, these people could be defeated by common sense and logic. They are an infinitesimally small group of people who are an outspoken rabble-rousing hate group. And yeah, they cause minor amounts of grief and frustration, and a sheer, "How stupid can you be?" factor, but it's not like they are taking the world apart, brick by brick. They're more like banging their hands against it like idiots, thinking that the noise their hollow skulls make actually mean something to somebody.

Death's Nephew

12-30-08, 06:29 PM

Within the bounds of law and decency, these people could be defeated by common sense and logic. They are an infinitesimally small group of people who are an outspoken rabble-rousing hate group. And yeah, they cause minor amounts of grief and frustration, and a sheer, "How stupid can you be?" factor, but it's not like they are taking the world apart, brick by brick.

My analogy was meant to be humorous as well as a solid connection as to how people like to try and say "Violence never solves anything."

And see? Something that doesn't effect you directly can easily be called minor. The people that sue them don't see it as "minor". And within the bounds of law and decency, common sense and logic, these people have not only been free to cause people immense grief, but have made money off of it as well.

You can't rely on the law to always come to your aid. It usually does just the exact opposite in those crunch times. "God helps those who help themselves."

Terminus Mortis

12-31-08, 03:31 PM

No, I help those who help themselves. By supplying them with bullets. Which, unfortunately, isn't prudent given the circumstances here.

The fact of the matter is that Freedom of Speech is guaranteed to all citizens under the constitution, but that doesn't mean that people can publicly slander the names of good men and women who have fought and even died for that constitution. We do have a law against that! Unfortunately those particular laws can be so convoluted that a good lawyer can wrap a jury up in a debate as to whether or not the WBC is being persecuted and denied their first amendment rights.

In summary, it's pretty fucked up.

Rebellion

12-31-08, 09:51 PM

If violence begets violence...
...then what're we waiting for? Shotguns are in the closet.
Seriously though...those people are just another KKK waiting to happen.
Give 'em white hoods, and we've got a cult, baby!

Apodidae

01-01-09, 04:56 PM

I agree violence has its uses, some of them for good, but it wouldn't help in the case of this church. Beating the snot out of some people picketing will only give the leaders propaganda to feed possible recruits or current followers. The thing that makes these people a problem is their ideas, which can't be knocked out of their heads with a fist. Now, if they all suddenly became armed and violent, and terrorized the people they hate, a similarly forceful response would probably be necessary. Hopefully it doesn't come to that though.