A rant

[Visla Eraclaire]

I completely suspect that no one will agree with this, but this sub-forum is all about expressing opinions, so why not? Not to mention, I don't have anything to lose.

I do not consider myself a fantastic writer. I don't have some big head about my style or characters that makes me insist that they be loved by all. I admit up front that Visla especially is not the sort of action-adventure oriented character that fits best with this forum.

That being said, I really question some of the judgments I've received recently. I don't presume to say, "I got a 61 and I deserved a 75." While I remember the scores being more generous when I was a judge, I don't really care about numbers. You can set your scale however you like. My issue is with the comments that go along with the numbers, and what the categories are tied to.

Anyone who would likely care enough to read a topic just to understand a rant like this already knows what I'm talking about, so I won't go to the trouble of picking apart comments piece by piece. It wouldn't be worthwhile, given that the explanation would only make sense to those who already know.

In more general terms, however, I feel Continuity is an area of serious concern. Threads need to stand on their own, but they also need to fit into the overarching theme and story of a character. Points would be lost if something was "just a battle" that came out of nowhere and was never mentioned again. Points are also lost however if the story is so convoluted and self-referential that you need to read someone's entire portfolio of threads to understand a single one.

My recent battle spent the first post reflecting on a previous thread in a way that would be relevant given the impending fight. I was told by my judge that the meaning of A Noble Calling was unclear, so I made it pretty obvious in the opening post. In A Noble Calling, likable characters die (which apparently the judge in that thread thought was "a loss of potential"). The audience is meant to be upset by this. The contrast is, Visla is not upset. She spends the first post wondering if she should be upset, and questioning what kind of monster she might become if she ceased to care.

Read that post yourself, if you're interested. Can you understand that? If you're unclear about something, is it easily explained by reading the thread summaries (which are only a sentence or two) and the item description of the green gem that are inserted in my profile?

I think it is.

This rant is already getting a bit long, but I'll make one final comment. This is the suggestion that irked me the most.

Read the following sentence:

"Gnarled brambles and weeds choked what was once a venerable thoroughfare down to a path barely suitable for walking."


Does it paint a picture? Yes. Is it a bit wordy? Maybe, depending on your standards. Do you think you could give the same image with less words? I don't think so. I could say "a road in disrepair," but that isn't nearly as clear.

I think it's far from being purple prose or excessive. It might be if it were in the middle of an action scene. It might distract from the story, as the judge suggested. But do you know what's happening when that line appears? Visla is walking down that road. That's it.

</rant>

[Godhand]

In b4 shitstorm.

[Visla Eraclaire]

In b4 shitstorm.

I sincerely hope not. If anyone gets angry over this, it is a very sad reflection on the forum. I, myself, I am not "furious with rage" over it. I'm just tired of making private complaints to friends and felt I would air my disagreement in the public square and see how it goes.

[Christoph]

Obligatory first statement: Have you gone to the judge(s) in question to talk about this first? When players and judges communicate, it helps everyone.

Moving on, Continuity isn't exactly easy to gauge. In general terms, it is how well you as a writer made your story seem part of something larger, or the opposite of that's your goal, and how well you give the story meaning. Also, Continuity isn't a first post and last post thing. Ideally, it traces of your character's overall plot should carry over through the entire thread, not intrusively, but just little colors and shades. I won't lie; continuity is not easy to score well in.

I haven't read the thread in question, so I can't really make a call one way or another. Again, if you have specific issues, take them up with your judge first.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I talked to the judge when he judged me last time, privately. He ostensibly agreed with me that his judgment was somewhat off and thanked me for my input. He offered to re-judge it, but I said that as long as he understood my complaints, I didn't care about scores.

My disagreements in this second thread are not identical, but they are sufficiently similar that I felt I would rather post about it than have that same evidently fruitless discussion again.

Also, it's an opportunity for people to say, "Hey, you're crazy. Your judge is completely right." Maybe I am. I'm not going to be easily persuaded of that, since I wouldn't have posted anything if I felt my position was dubious, but it remains a possibility.

I recognize the inherent problems in continuity, but I don't think it's hard to detect the meaningfulness of the thread to the overall story. It's a fairly classic "power corrupts" type thing. I put a significant amount of effort into making the battle NOT preposterous for a character who would never pick a fight, while not being heavy-handed and having her take it extremely seriously.

One of my continuing objections is the seeming suggestion that leaving things mysterious, unexplained, or unresolved is always bad. If every thread is wrapped up neatly, the story starts to sound like a weekly sitcom (not to mention causing problems with continuity as mentioned supra). Every thread of mine reveals slightly more about a character that's meant to be distant, somewhat hard to identify with, and internally conflicted. I'm fairly tired of that being considered a blame-worthy thing.

Also, in terms of clarity, I realize that sometimes I may write in a way that is complex or convoluted. Sometimes, as mentioned above, it's intentional. Other times, it is a legitimate error. Still other times, it is merely a lack of attention or competence on the part of the reader. Clarity isn't a universal good, and I don't think a judge should be so quick to blame the writer when something is unclear. Give us the benefit of the doubt a little. Maybe you misread something or maybe you aren't meant to know. I'm not saying authors should be pandered to completely, but a story is boring if everything is laid out for the world to see.

[Caden Law]

Continuity's generally a pain in the ass score. If the judge has read your other threads beforehand, you're likely to get a better score. If not, you're likely to get a worse one. Just starting out? Don't even hold out hope unless you know exactly how to write the opener to something Epic.

Not worth getting frustrated over, but I know where you're coming from.

And yes, rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerrated. Godhand tried drowning me in a toilet. When that didn't work, he threw me off an oceanliner in the Gulf of Omaan. A few months, some deliciously spit-roasted Somali pirates and three or four dozen international lawbreakings later...

[Requiem of Insanity]

I honestly agree with everything posted here with your rant. continuity is just that ass score that no matter what I try to do it comes off flat. I have spent different amounts of time working on ways to make the story feel like a whole, but in the end, it sometimes backfires.

Another thing that does irk me is that with Continuity you can't just have short, one thread stories. Everything must be linked together. So if you have a random battle, your score reflects that and the judge says "You had a random battle. Sorry but thats lame." Its hard for me, because sometimes I just want to write a thread with this character that is just another random kill, and not have it tie to any greater story. But that would make my score suffer.

Its hard, and usually gets bottled down to human error as well. But in the end, its more just a gripe than anything else for me.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I appreciate the agreement from everyone about continuity. That wasn't really intended to be the focus of my criticism, but it seems to be of significant concern to the community.

I'll bring up two more things since the topic seems to be moving along.

1) Frustrated expectations. Every reader goes into a thread with expectations; it's almost impossible not to. That being said, I think judges really need to go to great lengths not only to keep an open mind, but to remember that the author might have a goal for the thread or character that's different from what the judge is hoping for. This is not something to penalize for.

2) Low score, positive comments. There are few things more frustrating to me upon reading a judgment, mine or that of another, than seeing a 6 or 7 followed by what amounts to "great job!" While for some people, the improvement to a 6 or 7 may be praiseworthy, there was obviously something still wrong enough that you docked 30-40% of the possible points.

[Christoph]

Visla: I think you're looking at the meaning of the numbers the wrong way. Our rubric doesn't produce scores the same way as grading an exam would, where you lose points for each question you get wrong. If you get a 6 or 7, it isn't necessarily because you "lost points"; they were just never earned. Scoring higher than a 7 in any category isn't easy, and 9+ in a category (save for perhaps Mechanics) is quite impressive. If you score 7 in a category (which is meant to mean notably above average, anyway), you haven't been "docked" points. You just didn't earn the even higher numbers by being particularly impressive (or by producing something spectacular enough to earn a 10).

Now, a common argument I might hear from some at this point is “why is the bar so high?” First, I don’t like to think of it as a “bar”, because nobody gets dropped into a metaphorical pit of angry badgers if they don’t reach this imaginary bar. Secondly, because it allows for a nearly limitless range of excellence. When writing a paper in high school or college, anything deemed “very good” is given a 95-100, leaving a wide range of even better quality work that would receive the same grade as good, but notably lesser papers. On Althanas, that same “very good” is in the mid-70’s range, leaving the rest of the excellence spectrum represented by 80+ (conveniently the range JCs fall under).

That said, nobody should feel the need to earn a JC unless that is his or her personal goal. Scoring between 65 and 75 regularly is perfectly well and good and means that you’ve got a good amount of promise. It’s certainly nothing to be ashamed of. This all ties into Continuity because scores of 6 or 7 typically indicate a perfectly acceptable and logical introduction/conclusion/etc. Scores of 8, 9, and 10 are intentionally reserved for stories that go above and beyond that.

Well, hopefully that made at least a little sense. In short, there’s a reason why only about 2% of all completed threads become JCs. Not writing JCs is nothing to be ashamed of, but it’s that much greater of an accomplishment when one manages it.

[Fatina]

Even though the post above nicely narrowed the end of this thread I'd still like to share my experiences. I happen to agree.

There were two different quests I started with another one of my characters. The first one was a solo, it started rather slowly since I took the time to account for my character's background story by making references to things that were happening throughout his walk (Half the quest he is seeing illusions as he walks). I think I received a high fifty or a low sixty in this quest which must have been the highest score I've ever received. I am not sure if by writing this the judge meant it was not desirable or if he was just making a comment, but he said the thread had started out fairly slow.

The other quest I mentioned was a very poorly-written story I started with another writer way before my solo had been started but they were both submitted around the same time. This one received a twenty-something and one of his greatest complains -he, being a completely different judge- was that there was not enough information about my character; I had made vague references to my threads and I wrote it as if the reader had at least skimmed through his profile. Even though I was disappointed in receiving this score after a sixty-something I had to agree with the judge.

Now I am writing a solo with three of my characters, and I am more than a little worried that I will be heavenly penalized for exploiting the first part of the quest with character development and background checks. And although there is movement of the plot, the recap of my characters' story is what dominates my thread at this moment. It is really a hard call for writers when it comes to how they should pace themselves, I guess it is just a matter of being reasonable with how much one reveals or leaves out.

[Christoph]

Well, we've established that Continuity (mixed with Pacing in your case) isn't terribly hard to do decently, but is quite difficult to do well. It's a challenge that many professional authors contend with. Luckily, there are methods you can use to make that sort of introductory character development stuff more interesting while still accomplishing what you need it to accomplish. If you were to send a PM asking for pointers to me, or one of the other judges, we'd be happy to give you some tips in that regard. As for the comments you received, you'll notice after a while that judges tend to give basically the same amount of criticism whether a thread scores 45 or 70. What changes is the how refined it gets. A judge isn't going to focus on helping a player who scored rather low fix the same things as he would for a player who scored decently high. There's usually a progression of writing-related skills, or at least priorities.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Cristoph, I think your replies are very helpful to someone who is making a point that looks a lot like mine. Unfortunately, you've missed the mark.

I say in my very first post that you can set the "bar" as high as you want. Make an 9 only attainable if your judge is moved to tears. That's fine. I'm pointing out a negative side effect of that system that could be avoided through better judging.

I had tried to avoid giving specific examples, hoping we could discuss this in a broader philosophical sense, but all that has resulted in is handwaving. I both wrote and judged several JC threads, Cristoph. A explanation of rubric basics is not the goal of this thread.

When the 8+ is in some ephemeral realm where only "the best" can get it, you get judges arbitrarily docking points. And so, with regret, here are some examples of the ridiculousness I am referring to:


3 points off in Mechanics for alleged comma errors and one word being used without a hyphen (Tentanda Via), similarly 2 points off in Mechanics for comma errors the judge admitted he might have even imagined (A Noble Calling)
5 in Setting for describing the surroundings "eloquently" but not "interacting with them" (A Noble Calling). Note: This is a viable complaint in a battle perhaps, but he failed to point out any situation where I could have "interacted" with the setting. Visla is a frail and passive girl. She can't just flip a table over because it would make the judge happy.
5 in Technique for complaints that are essentially about Pacing (A Noble Calling).
Complaint that descriptions of the setting were not overly impressive, with a complaint later in the same judgment that they were excessive. (Tentanda Via)
4 in Continuity for a thread that deals with travel between the location of two threads (something many writers ignore), links up with the emotional content of the previous thread and suggests continuing issues that became the basis for an entire character update (Tentanda Via)
Complaints about the quality of NPC personalities in a battle thread which featured only one NPC, a guard that the character had no reason to describe further. In fact, anything more would have been a boring and pointless exercise (Tentanda Via)
Continual suggestions that things were unclear or confusing, without considering the possibility that the judge is at fault and not the writer



I could go on, but I won't. I was originally intending to pull this punch and simply let the facts speak for themselves, but the vague platitudes from Cristoph have lead me to believe that unless I am blunt, I will be misunderstood.

There is a decline in judge quality. Read Ataraxis' judgment of Origins and Intentions and compare. That is the sort of fair-minded author-oriented judge that makes writing and submitting a thread a delight. I have no pretension that my subsequent threads were as good as Origins, but looking at the manner in which they were judged gives a good example of the mistakes that novice judges can make. What the judge wants or expects from a thread cannot be the metric by which it is evaluated. Scores shouldn't be lowered by some arbitrary amount without sufficient explanation just to ensure they don't look too high. All problems of understanding should not be heaped at the feat of the writer. Millions of careless readers have misunderstood the writings of great writers. I'm not one of those great writers, but that doesn't mean misunderstandings are automatically my fault.

Judges, if you don't understand something, ask yourself a question first. Am I meant to understand this right now? If not, move along. You might get to the end of the thread and still not have an answer. Then there's another question. Is this the sort of thing that might become a recurring theme or problem for the character? This is pretty easy to spot, because often the writer will basically tell you so in the concluding post or earlier. If you're still unclear on something and haven't disposed of it as either something you are meant not to know or which is a continuing plot issue, consider asking the writer. Then once you hear the reason, ask yourself if you should have realized that. If so, no deduction on clarity or whatever area you are considering. If not, go ahead. Obviously, something that is truly a 10 should probably never require asking, but I think it would be nearly impossible to produce a thread that has a storyline of any real depth or quality that would never leave the reader puzzled for a moment.

I wish they were still around to use as examples, but my threads as Acolyte Bosche and Arius Mephisto, especially the Judge's Choice thread Goodbye, Farewell, Amen, would provide a excellent context in this discussion. I suspect Lord Anglekos would give GFA something like a 60, largely because he could not grasp the subtleties of its import. I wrote that piece about four years ago. Even with the immaturity that it certainly possessed, it is by far the best thing I have ever written. It is difficult to justify continued submissions when I have such a strong suspicion that if my work were ever that good again, it would be brushed aside by some philistine.

There, now this thread has lived up to its title. It's a shame it had to come to that.

[Serilliant]

If you have suggestions for how to improve the judging system, you are more than welcome to share them. If you have complaints relating to a specific judge or to a specific thread, you are more than welcome to approach that judge or make an appeal to an administrator. But under no circumstances is is appropriate to publicly bash a judge simply because you disagree with that judge's comments.

Your attitude is not acceptable and, as I'm sure you will find, not conducive to a resolution. That you would condescendingly insult someone while throwing your hands in the air and saying "it's a shame it had to come to that" is deplorable. Your ability to discuss these issues is contingent on your ability to do so respectfully and maturely. I trust this will not be a problem in the future.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I apologize. My rhetoric gets out of hand from time to time.

You're adorable, Seril. I really mean that.


The staff is well-meaning, but I think Althanas has seen much better days, and maintaining the status quo will only make us steadily complacent about that fact until there are none left who remember.

[Max Dirks]

Case in point, Visla, we give you a choice of who you want to judge your writing. If you have problems with a particular judge, request a different one when you submit your thread. I for one am a particularly rough judge and give comparatively low numbers due to the judging method I use. Naturally, I am never requested by anyone to judge a thread. Even Christoph initially did not want me judging in the ToC because he felt that my scores might be too low and effectively turn away our new players. Because systematic judging would be too time consuming and ridiculous (for example, 1 point off for every 5 spelling mistakes you find), you'll have to deal with the fact that every judge is different. Hell, I rarely take a detailed look at mechanics. You can learn that shit in school. I'm more interested in the pacing of the story and the character growth. In any event, it might be worthwhile to request a different judge each time because they might give you a completely different (and positive) take on how to improve your writing.

Also, you might find it interesting that score isn't a major factor in JC voting anymore. If a judge likes a thread, they submit it to be voted on by the rest of the staff. Thus if I gave you a 67 for Goodbye, Farewell, Amen, it still could be a JC. Basically I'm saying quit pretending you have any idea how things work now. You were on staff years ago and things have changed immensely since your "better days." All of those changes have made this site better and more well rounded. There has not been a decline in judging quality, there has simply been turnover with judges and a sharp increase in writing quality. 90% of the site can write better than I can, but that doesn't stop me from being a qualified judge. If anything, the increase in quality has proven that Althanas works as a creative writing forum. It really does help our players to become better writers.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Well, I respect your opinion that there has been a sharp increase in quality of writers, but I think it's far from the truth, besides which I don't think it addresses any of the problems I've raised. Likewise the method for JC selection has nothing to do with my criticisms nor does the ability to select a judge.

I think whatever good this thread might have done, it has either done or failed to do by now. I apologize if my opinions offended anyone, but that doesn't alter my position.

I will pursue this through other avenues. If someone would kindly close this or archive it or just obliterate it, any of those things would be great. If not, I'm done with it, personally at least.

[Arsène]

Done.