Site Suggestions/Regeneration

[Duffy]

Now I hope this doesn't come across as arrogant or unpresidented considering I've been a member a day or two now, but I'm quickly becoming passionate for the site as a role playing forum and thought I'd share my initial impressions, and some thoughts expressed by others who decided against joining after I shared the link. I don't mean any offence by it, they're just observations, (and I've been around on a fair few forums).

1. Presentation: Don't get me wrong, the skin/form and everything is fine. What's damaging for me personally is the huge array and number of forums, multiple boards for different regions, regions within regions, highly inactive boards and the like. There's a massive list on the opening page, which could be off-putting to some, not having an idea where to start, even after reading the FAQ, I wavered a bit after a day or two because it requires a great deal of reading to know how the different regions interlace, and how starting in Scara Brae, on the island, can severely limit interaction. Most players might play in X region for example, limiting options, or giving most an urge to find a boat real quick! This ties into:

2. Inactivity: This has been covered before in other threads, and was the reason I came here to begin with, Godhand posted the link on /tg/, and a friend who frequents that site ( I don't myself,) passed it on. If you condensed the board down and starting mass recruiting, with the small but skilled and established group you already have, this site should be so easy to ressurect to a vibrant community. I've seen several similar fade during busy times, it's to be expected, of course it is, real life always takes president and it's paramount to balance. I'm only on alot now because it's Summer and I'm only working part-time, I imagine, come September when year 2 of University starts I'll be severely limited in access so will be on, posting, and off again, alot of you will be the same. I've shared out the link to rp communities, and close friends, so I hope one or two new people come in from that alone - you should encourage others to do the same, and certainly see to the members list being cleared of anyone inactive for X time. Preferably those called 'miss-sluttyXXX'...:rolleyes:

3. The Region Boards: vBulletin is highly customisable from what limited knowledge I have of it, and one way to get around the huge need for a thread per location, is to use the same drop down menu www.warseer.com/forums uses for their 'Army Lists,' using the drop down menu you can select different options, which will display a subtitle underneath the thread title, so you know which army the thread is pertaining to. You could remove all the sub-boards, and do something similar. People would then travel to X region, see a list of threads, and check out posts for a location they wish to go to. This will also help the above points, and condense all active posts onto one board, giving, at least a good impression that the site is alot more active than it may or may not be.

That's about it for now, don't eat me! :eek:

EDIT:

Not to mention save money on server bandwidth!

[Cyrus the virus]

Certainly not unprecedented. These suggestion threads appear from time to time.

I wouldn't mind doing away with some of the lesser-used subforums, but don't want to do it for aesthetic purposes. Certain areas have not been used in years and could serve better as descriptions in a region's main forum.

As for getting new members, this is often a point of contention among people here. For years now we've had a small number of active members who are passionate, and there seems to be a split in opinion on whether or not recruiting en masse is a positive or negative thing because of this. Personally, I don't really see the benefit in recruiting many new members. What's the point? To become bigger? What for?

[Duffy]

The main reason would be to get the site more active. Obviously, you run the risk of getting a swathe of people who arn't as experienced, or people coming in with half thought out ideas (which sounds really snobby, but hey) but at the same time, different people have different RP needs, and I suppose it's me being the sort that needs to post and post and post and post, and can churn it out all the time.

I guess the best option there is to draw the current players into a quest or idea, it's just odd to see a quality board have 1-3 recent threads a month, there's a relatively strict and well thought application process, which in itself should filter through 'dedicated' RP's or those willing to learn - it's not like any and everyone can just turn up and start posting.

Turning unused regions and posts into descriptions in the FAQs/detail forums is a damned good idea too Cyrus, nicely put. I'm going to get off the soapbox now and get on with the second Lucian's Call post *skips away.*

[Cyrus the virus]

Oh you'll have no problem churning out threads really quick if you find the right people to post with.

[Godhand]

I'm all for doing mass recruiting. More people means more eyeballs, which means your actions have more significance and we get more and better prospective judges, more manpower to carry out some other ideas...

Basically, I'm of the opinion that there's no problem this site has that couldn't be solved with more people.

Although it'd help if they could write, obviously. But we seem to do a pretty good job of filtering out the fucktards.

[Duffy]

Lol, I like your approach to things God Hand, short, blunt, honest :D

[Witchblade]

If Godhand is something, it's definitely that.

I definitely don't see a problem with a mass recruit on the forum. Those who are simply into writing for doing silly things and writing two or three sentences and expecting it to be 'gold' (oh, man, I miss those two idiots) will be weeded out and people who are actually interested in real writing will stick around. I personally don't even care if they're Gods gift to writing, as long as they have an interest and a drive in it. Not only will they improve their style and grow as writer here, they'll add to our community.

As for the forums, yeah, there are some dead ones sitting around, heck even my own region has a few that could be pruned, but I'm not willing to give up on them yet. I also think the variability of regions and races and different cultures on Althanas is one of it's strongpoint. It allows writers to have a wide range of places to write in and possibly even change by their own actions, by adding 'canon' to the story.

[The International]

I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of recruiting. I just have some reservations about how to go about it (I'll get to that later). Disclaimer: I am not a professional, and I have been wrong before.

To be frank, I can only think of maybe a dozen people that I actually want to play with, and those people already have a lot on their plates. An event like the Featured Quest or a Tournament (which we have two going on at the same time) have the potential to completely occupy the active population. I'd love to have more active members so that I can have a larger lot to pick from.

Now what I fear about recruiting is a site like this doing it wrong. I don't know how long you guys have been in operation, but I can bet some money that you guys did the whole Affiliate thing with one or two RP sites like yourselves, those RP sites went under, and you had a dead link on your front page... Sucks, right? Pardon my French when I say fuck them all. I started shopping around when you guys went down and there was no other site like this that fosters such quality writing and encourages so much creative freedom (this is not a flame on any other players that come from one of those sites). Communities that focus on creative writing in general are the best places to go. Their members are an untapped demographic, we're an extremely narrow special interest so they wouldn't see us as a threat to stealing their entire community like a fellow RP site would, and they're good prospects for Althanas' writing standards. For most RPers from other forums, the thought of being judged and the idea of investing so much in every single post, is daunting to them.

The other fear I have about recruiting is not being able to handle the influx of new members. I know everyone has their own reasons for leaving Althanas. I even know that the following reason may not be the main reason for them to leave, but I'm confident it's a significant one. Speed! Compared to other sites we run at a snail's pace, myself included. When real life hits a person with a full plate Althanas is probably one of the first things they get rid of, and rightfully so. It is the most time consuming leisure activity that anyone could enjoy. It took me nearly a month to get any payback for my activity, and from the looks of things it'll be 2010 before I even reach level one. I understand that though. The speed of a post is the price of quality writing, but a backed up team of moderators gives people someone to blame. I'm not blaming them for anything. My first thread was judged in a timely manor, but for a moment it looked like that particular mod was doing everything on the site. Judges are just like everyone else with a life, which is why the staff needs to be doubled in size if there is a recruiting drive. If not, judgments get backed up, people get pissed, no explanation you give is going to justify the thought of waiting forever to get criticized, when it comes time for them to give up an activity in their hectic lives Althanas will be the first to go, and the drive will be nothing better than a revolving door that leaves a bunch of dead accounts.

[Sighter Tnailog]

I simply must speak.

Elitism is a problem on Althanas.

The elitism problem cuts to all aspects of the site; to interpret it as a mod v. players issue is facile. I see it on display here: when we fret over recruitment because it might bring someone who isn't "good." I've seen it on mod forums, when the constant worry about hiring a new staff member is that their writing isn't up to snuff or they aren't active enough or they are too new or anything else. I've fought against solo quests precisely because they encourage insularity; the thought that never would someone deign to risk letting someone else mess up their perfectly crafted prose.

Writing in community is messy. It always will be. But there is a dangerous impulse on Althanas to deny entry to the community to anyone who doesn't suit whatever silly standards of goodness we've constructed this week. And the staff cannot double to the size required to support the numbers Althanas needs to recruit if it denies entry to anyone that doesn't suit whatever silly standards of goodness it has constructed this week.

We need to all realize that not a single one of us, even the one of us with the most JCs, is William Faulkner. Perhaps because our JC was not awarded by William Faulkner, but by, generally speaking, a teenager or a college undergraduate or a retail service worker. Maybe these are particularly talented teenagers and college undergraduates and retail service workers, but their standards of beauty and aesthetics are also in flux, in process, in progress. Their understandings of style, of form and function, are not "good," they are constructions of time and circumstance and the genres beloved by our community.

We can learn as much about writing from having the grace to share what we know with people whose writing is "bad." And who knows, we may think their writing is "bad" because it is not like ours, when in fact it is a bold genreshift, a different way to think about roleplaying, a different way to think about writing, a new perspective. Those things come from new people.

That is why ecologists speak of populations that get so small they kill themselves. Why? Because genetic variation gets so limited that every member of the species is more or less the same. Althanas's variation, its genes, are the stories we read and produce. But we can't populate the people that WRITE on Althanas unless we are constantly on the prowl for new members, for fresh infusions of human capital and labor.

Frankly put, if our community can't get over these twin problems, a reluctance to recruit and a general aversion by the staff to welcoming new members, it will fail.

And we won't ever get over these twin problems if we can't get over their Mother: the idea that we are better than everyone else, collectively and individually.

[Taskmienster]

That is why ecologists speak of populations that get so small they kill themselves. Why? Because genetic variation gets so limited that every member of the species is more or less the same. Althanas's variation, its genes, are the stories we read and produce. But we can't populate the people that WRITE on Althanas unless we are constantly on the prowl for new members, for fresh infusions of human capital and labor.


Althanas is like the cheetah, we've bottle-necked. OH MY! I agree though, we have no reason to try and shun people based on their writing, and I think the first step should be to really be careful about judging as well. I think that a lot of the reason that "elitism" feels like it is prevalent is because we, as judges, tend to be rather critical in a blunt, quick way. I've tried to step back, remember what it was like to start 6 years ago, and what the judges said that kept me on the site. Sometimes I felt like I had written a masterpiece, and a judge bashed it... but I just kept writing. Most of the time though, I was given helpful advice that was given in a very positive and genuinely polite way. That should help with keeping the people that come, as well as not intimidating those that have yet to join.

[Logan]

We are a product of the rubric to which we write to. We write for the score, more times than not, because it brings with it recognition of our ability to write and to do so in an eloquent manner.

I am all for mass recruiting, because what are legends if there are none left to speak of them?

It would be great to see the current make-up of the "Althanas Core" go on to become prestigious writers, but frankly I'm more interested in seeing Althanas grow once more.

It is in growth that we are challenged most of all. It is one thing to write your best work when you are questing with a brilliant author who works with you. It is quite another to take a young writer under your wings and help him grow to become as good as, nay I dare say better, than yourself.

Thank you, Sighter, for posting in this thread and bringing to the forefront anew.

[Taskmienster]

Logan, you know melodramatic writing isn't necessary for OOC posts... right? Lol

[Sighter Tnailog]

I'm going to say something about Logan's point because the rubric lies as the key structural driver of elitist thinking on Althanas. I want to say that I think JUDGING IS GOOD. It makes Althanas what it is, and we should take solace in the fact that we do have a lot of talented folks working and writing on this site. But it contains the dangers inherent in comparison and competition; we work for scores, not for fun, and we decide over time that the rubric rules the roost when it comes to determining quality.

I am largely responsible for the current rubric. I solidified its current category scheme, I spearheaded its adoption by the moderators, I goaded the then-administration into its adoption, etc. It is my baby.

And what an ugly baby.

I think the rubric is wonderful in a lot of ways, and I might even use it one day in grading papers for a future class. But for our purposes, I think it is deficient. I think it tilted the balance of the game too much in the direction of a writing contest and too far away from the fantasy and diversion that attracts newer players.

I've often thought we might find a way to rehabilitate the old rubrics, the ones that were simpler and less sophisticated, but fairly self-explanatory and more attuned to the demographic the game attracts.

At the same time, the current rubric might call people who would otherwise not develop to stretch themselves beyond "simpler and less sophisticated" categories into something deeper and more mature.

I don't pretend to know the perfect solution. And I think "let people choose the rubric they want!" is silly, as new people will see three enormous rubrics they have to choose from and be immediately turned off by it.

For comparison's sake, if anyone is interested in the history of the rubric...

1st Rubric
Setting
Style
Coherence
Character
Creativity
Dialogue
Brevity
Weaponry
Conclusion
Wild Card

2nd Rubric
Introduction
Setting
Strategy
Writing Style
Rising Action
Character
Dialogue
Climax
Conclusion
Wild Card

With all this in mind!

While the rubric is important and all to attracting new players, it is not the most important factor.

I'm going to present what I think are the three critical elements of Althanas' flourishing.

1. Althanas works best when it has a large number of students in high school -- or whatever is the equivalent for our non-American friends. High schoolers are generally learning something. They are growing, they are changing, they are at a creative moment in their lives when their style is developing and maturing. Althanas can benefit from their productivity, free time, and exploration by providing them a simple service: a free, open environment in which to grow.

If you are in high school, invite your friends to Althanas. Some of them will suck. But honestly, the Althanas flourished precisely at that time when we had a lot of people in high school and their friends active and posting.

2. Althanas works best with a mixture of unformed and developing content. Instead of thinking of continent writing as a "fanfiction" exercise, where other players will have the "opportunity" to play around in someone else's creation, we should think of it as a collaborative project. Raiaera always worked best when I was willing to let it go and surrender control -- to let others paint it with their own ideas and development.

To this end, Althanas content needs periodic rebooting and cleaning. The time is fast approaching when my own continental baby, Raiaera, may need something of a similar reboot. And long-standing aspects of our tradition -- the Eternal Tap, the Wars of the Tap, the Demon Wars, etc. -- may need updating, revision, and emendment.

Don't be afraid to change the past. This is JUST a writing game. Althanas is not real. (Sage wisdom for those among you who seek truth: Althanas actually is real. Your job is to construe the world it creates in order to summon that reality which deserves to be. Go read Mircea Eliade and then follow it up with Tolkien's "On Fairy Stories" and conclude with a jaunt through the interviews and public appearances of China Mieville.)

3. Be good to one another. No community can exist without this simple commandment.

[Saxon]

1. Althanas works best when it has a large number of students in high school -- or whatever is the equivalent for our non-American friends. High schoolers are generally learning something. They are growing, they are changing, they are at a creative moment in their lives when their style is developing and maturing. Althanas can benefit from their productivity, free time, and exploration by providing them a simple service: a free, open environment in which to grow.

If you are in high school, invite your friends to Althanas. Some of them will suck. But honestly, the Althanas flourished precisely at that time when we had a lot of people in high school and their friends active and posting.

You make Althanas sound like some sort of machine bent on pedophilia, taking in high schoolers through a revolving door and quickly losing interest in them once they graduate/turn of age. =P

I agree, though. Much of Althanas's population has been fueled by high schoolers, and since we almost have multiple generations of members on Althanas it can probably be said that each generation was populated majorly by people in that demographic. While that's always been the status quo, I think we should also appeal to people of the college level and beyond, even if we do so already. I mean, everyone is green behind the ears no matter what age you are when you're starting out, so it'd probably be a good idea to recruit by expanding our target demographic rather then focus on what we've always had.

Having high school students join has it's advantages in that they're already learning, experimental and fairly flexible to new things. But, they also have their disadvantages. You can average about 4 years of gauranteed uninterrupted activity from a high schooler until they graduate if they maintain an active role as a member of Althanas, but once college or whatever hits they tend to fall off the wagon. And not usually by disinterest but because of time management.

I think instead of trying to maintain the revolving door we always had, we should also be focusing on some air of permanency in the members we attain. A way of accomplishing that is to try and also appeal to people who already have gone through the upheaval with their lives of moving out, working, college, etc. and can afford more time to spend doing as they please. This would yield not only more activity but a less volatile member base that is less affected by the change of the seasons during the year unlike what we have now.

Just a thought.


2. Althanas works best with a mixture of unformed and developing content. Instead of thinking of continent writing as a "fanfiction" exercise, where other players will have the "opportunity" to play around in someone else's creation, we should think of it as a collaborative project. Raiaera always worked best when I was willing to let it go and surrender control -- to let others paint it with their own ideas and development.

This is already in the process of being done, I think. I've also thought that regions should be more hands-on for the players with events and activities and less about giving them stuff to do because it's the standard. Ways of accomplishing this is providing them good reference material to draw from for their quests so they'll end up incorporating stuff from the region themselves, and in effect are region-writing themselves. Other ways would be creating events occurring within the region that draw players in and allow them to make the choices that direct the story and the region in a particular direction. I think the death of activity within a region lies in either too much structure or static events like mission boards with little input on the players on what happens to the region overall.

However, I do not think that any of this needs to be accomplished by repeatedly hosting global events for the sake of getting everyone involved in something massive. Big events are shiny and attractive on the onset, but it's been repeatedly proven that these events tend to either stall out or crash and burn more then four or six months out. This applies to events that have affected regions specifically, i.e. NOT tournaments. Things like the FQ or the Adventurer's Crown are nice, grand ideas on paper, but I think the logistics of them once tackled are a nightmare if not seen through appropriately.

Instead of repeating this cycle over and over again, I propose we focus more on domestic events and activities within regions with limited inter-regional cross-overs unless properly coordinated. It'd keep the plans small and within the control of region writers, allowing them more margin for error, creative freedom and practice with management so that when we actually get into big events on a global scale we're all prepared to work together in planning and execution of said event.

With that, I've got something I want to add to your list;

4) Leadership - I know it's said a lot in these forums that the staff or people in charge of a event are blamed when the shit hits the fan, but I think there needs to be a reminder of what leadership and management is for administering these events. Neither of them are done well or even good when the person in charge of the event is doing all of the work themselves. Good leadership and management is not killing yourself in order to get an event done or quitting halfway through it.

Each section of the staff has multiple people on it for a reason, and I think the head honchos for these events in the future need to practice and take advantage of the art of delegating work to the people they have assigned to them instead of trying to take on the majority of the work themselves. This tends to lead to more mistakes and leaving the leader holding the bag when the other members of a staff for a event aren't assigned stuff to work on for the overall event. When using your team and working with them, you open up far more freedom for yourself to work on leading the project instead of developing it, which will allow you to plan further ahead and not play it by ear.

Have a plan, work on it with others and give them room to assist you on creating the desired result for your project. Simple, effective logic, but very often it's misused or even not used at all.

[oblueknighto]

I've fought against solo quests precisely because they encourage insularity; the thought that never would someone deign to risk letting someone else mess up their perfectly crafted prose.

I follow this, though sometimes it is just impossible to find someone who is willing to write with you. Crazy, I know. I also don't really like the rubric and I've never really looked at it but I read the comments for me and other people.

Oh yea, I'm in high school and told people about RPing and all but they don't really like writing. Nobody.

Good points everybody and yes it's a game. A role playing game.

[Requiem of Insanity]

Ya, but are not solo's in their own way writing?

I mean, if your going to fight about getting people to write, why are you against one of its base forms? So what, people want to write a story by themselves and have it critiqued. Big whoop. Not everyone is into writing a solid post, but then having to wait three four and sometimes weeks for one post in a story. It's silly, ruins the fun, and crushes people's desire to write on the site.

I mean, we all have been there. We write with someone then they go off into the sunset looking into the light and, *poof*, we never see them again. It's mind bogglingly annoying. At least with a solo you can write at your own pace, enjoy the story your writing, and not feel pressured to throw up some garbage scribblings just so other people won't castrate your cat for not posting.

I'm all for recruiting, and for getting the people to write more on the site as groups, but if we're going to preach about how the purpose of this site is to "WRITE" then let's not get negative feelings towards all the aspects of it.

[Duffy]

2nd Rubric
Introduction
Setting
Strategy
Writing Style
Rising Action
Character
Dialogue
Climax
Conclusion
Wild Card

My scores would be considerably higher if we used this Rubric...

[oblueknighto]

Ya, but are not solo's in their own way writing?

Yea, they are writing in their own way but what's the point of having it on Althanas if it's a solo? I find no fun in that since Althanas is a writing community where we write together. If anybody wants to write solo's all the time they can do as they please but then why bother posting it on Althanas? Why bother even having solo's? Why bother join Althanas in the first place?

Rubric this rubric that... it all roots from the rubric telling people that this sucks and that doesn't, that is how you write. There shouldn't be a 'correct' way of writing though grammar and spelling should be right. Just too annoying when everybody writes differently and they have to be marked, changes in everything. Too harsh on the judges because they need to put scores with these things when all writing is so different.

[Tainted Bushido]

Yea, they are writing in their own way but what's the point of having it on Althanas if it's a solo? I find no fun in that since Althanas is a writing community where we write together. If anybody wants to write solo's all the time they can do as they please but then why bother posting it on Althanas? Why bother even having solo's? Why bother join Althanas in the first place?

There is a time and place for solos. Now, making all your content, solely the property of Solos is one thing. It creates a faux atmosphere of elitism, where people WANT to write with certain characters. (Valentina Snow was notorious for this. She used to only write with a handful of people and everything else was a solo) However, to deny that sometimes its better to develop a character solo without others pushing and prodding is also an unfair treatment. They have their place like anything else. I disagree with the credo "No solo's, ever!"


Rubric this rubric that... it all roots from the rubric telling people that this sucks and that doesn't, that is how you write. There shouldn't be a 'correct' way of writing though grammar and spelling should be right. Just too annoying when everybody writes differently and they have to be marked, changes in everything. Too harsh on the judges because they need to put scores with these things when all writing is so different.

And this is true too. The rubric is meant to be suggestions on how to advance your hobby as a writer. Its like writing a short story then giving it to a friend to see what they think. I used to be that guy in high school, when I would ignore my geometry teacher and write stories because I thought I was the hot shit. Many of those ideas were abandoned as I matured as a writer, but occasionally a thought or idea from that era seeps through.

The point is, the site was designed as a form of creative writing workshop. The Rubric was created as a means of adjudicating the sorts of things that enhance creative writing. I remember vehemently opposing the changing of the rubric, almost as hard as I opposed changing the bazaar.

Then again Sighter can tell you I was against a lot of policy changes, citing that putting more restrictions down hinders the experience, where free form was the way to go. Am I right? Probably not. In the end I think I'm just too lax about policy to really give a damn one way or another.

However the point of the rubric is to give you pointers on how to improve, it should not and cannot become the sole reason you work on the site. The second that becomes true, its time to put that rubric out to pasture and shoot it. Its become a menace to the society it was meant to help. Now, is a rubric perfect? That goes into a philosophical debate about how Humanity can only create imperfect constructs, due to our imperfect nature. We cannot fathom perfection, yet strive to achieve it, and in not achieving that, we either do one of two things;

1) Forfeit the contest and stop trying, realizing perfection is unachievable and hence the entire exercise is without merit.

OR

2) Double down and keep trying, working on the problems you have and pushing them forward. You may not achieve perfection, but you will continue to try until you can.

Neither are healthy attitudes and are rather extremist. These are the worst case scenarios. There is a happy medium between them, but really when you look at the people that stay on site, its usually in regards to how this site is judged. I get more people complaining or arguing with the critiques of their threads than anything.

[oblueknighto]

I disagree with the credo "No solo's, ever!"

Hmm, I must say that I personally don't have any ideas of my own. I try to avoid solo's but it's that isn't always the case with people, since people have their own lives and all. It isn't good to be too straightforward either, it's not very good to put things at extremes with 'never' and 'always'.


1) Forfeit the contest and stop trying, realizing perfection is unachievable and hence the entire exercise is without merit.
OR
2) Double down and keep trying, working on the problems you have and pushing them forward. You may not achieve perfection, but you will continue to try until you can.

I write for fun, is that a problem? Simple because I enjoy writing stories about random characters, that is why I join PbP RPing sites like these. I think this sort of RPing is the most entertaining where you don't know what your character is going to do until the other characters make some kind of influence on them.

I don't really know what it's like to be a writer but I guess it would be hard work yet rewarding. Most of the things in like are like that.

[Tainted Bushido]

Oh, I supported that thought, I merely mentioned those two as worst case scenarios as you could see a bit after that point was made. Sure, people write for the fun of it, Requiem being one of them. I know for a fact he does it merely as a steam vent for his more sadistic urges. The character is primal because its raw concentrated negative emotions.

That's not to say those two points are the ONLY reason people leave or stay, just that those are often deciding factors to those who jump aboard. It can be very discouraging to work hard, and suddenly find that you only got a 60. If you've been around awhile, you'd know 60 is a perfectly respectable score, but newer players would think of it like school, where a 60 is below average. They want that 100 A++.

Its just a matter of scope in that case.

[Sighter Tnailog]

Neither are healthy attitudes and are rather extremist. These are the worst case scenarios. There is a happy medium between them, but really when you look at the people that stay on site, its usually in regards to how this site is judged. I get more people complaining or arguing with the critiques of their threads than anything.

This is the case with everything. Holding competing extreme notions in tension and walking the line between them with dignity and grace, taking their goodness and diminishing their badness, it's the only way to live.

Take, for instance, solo quests. As I've said, I argue against them. Yet I have done them, and I've judged many solo quests which were not bad at all (and many which were terrible). My point in attacking them is that they represent a powerful temptation and tendency on Althanas -- the temptation towards breaking down community and regarding your own self as better than everyone else. (Also, the problem of having threads die off is never gone, but is lessened in environments where people aren't so self-absorbed as to regard only their projects as worthwhile. Also, the more people Althanas has, the better the chance of course-adjustment should someone go inactive.)

My point in challenging solo quests is that they have a powerful internal incentive precisely BECAUSE they are effective, powerful tools for character development. Yet if we were always doing solo quests, Althanas couldn't go anywhere as a community. We shouldn't challenge weak things. We should challenge strong things. It's the only way we get better.

The art of living, both outside of Althanas and inside it, is balance. We must set our use of tools like the rubric against its propensity to make us a bit elitist. We must weigh the benefits of the writing-workshop model we've developed against the drawback of losing the fun-and-game atmosphere that can attract casual players and keep their interest.

The answer is not any extreme, the answer is figuring out how to keep those things in tension. I don't have suggestions at this point, just philosophies. Pragmatism sounds great in theory, doesn't it?

[oblueknighto]

^ is very good. Explained in detail why I don't like solo's, kills the community. People shouldn't think of solo's as something that we do because we can't rely on other people. That'll break down the community.

[Requiem of Insanity]

so you are saying because I write solos, i have taken a knife and stabbed this community in the heart.

[Saxon]

Take, for instance, solo quests. As I've said, I argue against them. Yet I have done them, and I've judged many solo quests which were not bad at all (and many which were terrible). My point in attacking them is that they represent a powerful temptation and tendency on Althanas -- the temptation towards breaking down community and regarding your own self as better than everyone else. (Also, the problem of having threads die off is never gone, but is lessened in environments where people aren't so self-absorbed as to regard only their projects as worthwhile. Also, the more people Althanas has, the better the chance of course-adjustment should someone go inactive.)

My point in challenging solo quests is that they have a powerful internal incentive precisely BECAUSE they are effective, powerful tools for character development. Yet if we were always doing solo quests, Althanas couldn't go anywhere as a community. We shouldn't challenge weak things. We should challenge strong things. It's the only way we get better.


^ is very good. Explained in detail why I don't like solo's, kills the community. People shouldn't think of solo's as something that we do because we can't rely on other people. That'll break down the community.

I call bullshit. Solos have and will not tear apart this community. As Sighter has said, Solos are typically used for character development, but they're also used for other purposes. Some people have big projects that they only have time to work on on their own or maybe they just like writing themselves, but it is hardly ever detrimental to the community at large. Solos, like group quests, are activity on this site and if it's one thing we don't need right now it's trying to persecute people for not playing in the sandbox with everybody else. People don't need to always work and be together to be a community, especially one that prides itself on writing which is mostly an isolated, individual activity.

EDIT: And I also really question the implication that all the quests done around here are solos, when we've had a lot of group quests come to us in the past few months asking for judgments. Solos are not the issue here, and I think if anything as of right now they're being used as a scapegoat to ride this elitism pony for all it's worth.

People will work together in writing when it allows for it and they wish to do so, and I think it needs to be impressed on everybody here that if they think elitism is such a big issue on this site then the first step to eliminating it should not be calling a particular group of people out who are usually active for choosing to write on their own instead of with each other because it isn't favorable. This is a community after all, and part of being in a community is accepting that not everyone is going to always perform and act in the way you'd prefer. Especially when it involves practicing the writing craft. Everybody is different and each of us like to write in our own way, and that includes whether or not we want to work with others in telling a story.

In regards to activity and keeping this site running;

This site has always ran on a cycle where activity dips and rebounds depending on the season, and I believe that is largely because of our member base with the majority of them in all levels of schooling. People come and go depending on the season and their workload, and typically the first victim of time management will usually be this site. That's the downside of having your target demographic in schools. I believe that isn't going to change any time soon, so instead of panicking every year when activity dips like it always does, I think we need to suck it up.

We've a couple options when trying to boost activity on Althanas;

1) Recruit more people.

2) Advertise more.

3) Be active.

People right now are doing what they can as it's been indicated with threads like the A.P.U with members speaking of issues on Althanas and pitching ideas of how to improve our situation. We've a facebook now, it sounds like the word is getting out more with the tens of people we've had submitting profiles for their new characters over the last couple of weeks and people are generally concerned about the wellbeing of this site. It's being taken care of, but everybody needs to do their part in trying to spread the word of this site or at the very least use this site for the purpose it was created for. To write.

Start a quest, a story, a mission, a prequel, thread or whatever name you want to apply to your writing and do it. This site can't live and breathe on recruitment and advertisement alone, so it's up to all of us to make sure we're making Althanas active by being active. That means focusing less energy on the OOC forums and more on writing, and if you want to work with others or by yourselves in doing whatever it is you need to do to write then go for it.

People around here can sit around and bitch about how this site is falling around their ears and come up with nice, quaint arguments about how to fix it but in the end nothing gets fixed if nobody does anything about it. The staff is doing it's job on running and maintaining this site for all of you to use, and now it's up to all of you to take advantage of this site and everything in it.

Use it.

[Laureolus]

I'm pretty sure Sighter's dooming solos is only applicable if the community becomes too insular and only writes solos. Like he said, it's only bad if taken to the extreme.

Like Saxon said almost any activity will help Althanas right now, except driving members off the site.

[oblueknighto]

Everybody does what they find is the best in the community, everybody has their own opinion on it.

[Saxon]

Everybody does what they find is the best in the community, everybody is just another opinion.

...What?

[Visla Eraclaire]

I'm pretty sure Sighter's dooming solos is only applicable if the community becomes too insular and only writes solos. Like he said, it's bad if taken to the extreme.

Like Saxon said almost any activity will help Althanas right now, except driving members off the site.

See above, a new member involved in a non-solo with someone who generally only writes solos (me).

I think the site's doing fine. It's that time of year and I'm still seeing a fair amount of activity. I don't think we're that off-putting. I'm probably one of the most intentionally hostile and unpleasant people on the site and even I get a lot of PMs and IMs from new members.

Respectfully, I think this thread's a lot of ruffled feathers and grandstanding about nothing.

[Duffy]

It wasn't, when I started it, nearly four months ago. Everything I thought then seems to have sorted itself out now though, I've got threads coming out of my ears and it doesn't look like Althanas is going away just yet :D

[Sighter Tnailog]

I don't know why anyone feels the need to grandstand on anything. Everytime I bring up solos as emblematic of a troublesome trend on Althanas emblematic of broader problems of elitism, well, to quote the Joker:

"EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MINDS!"

Look, people, if you write solos you are NOT stabbing a knife into the heart of the community. No one is saying that; I've already acknowledged that I, too, have written and will write solo quests. But if you write solos with the intention of AVOIDING the community, then, well, that's your problem and you can deal with it in whatever way suits you most, either by grandstanding here with pissy little defensive rants or changing your behavior or sloughing it off and going about your life.

In other words; sometimes a solo quests is JUST a solo quest. And sometimes it's a metaphor. And in this case, the argument shouldn't be about whether or not you should write solo quests. It never ceases to amaze me how much this simple metaphor for the way Althanas builds walls around itself and its content makes people so incredibly angry.

THE ARGUMENT IS NOT ABOUT SOLO QUESTS. Nobody wants to make some sort of universal no-solo-quest policy or say that people who write solo quests are mean and evil people. The argument is about a tendency and a trend in Althanas, which the metaphor of a solo quest can be used to elucidate.

We have always had this problem on Althanas; to make some stupid golden-age argument about how the site was once good but now is falling down is facile. I bring it up because there have been plenty of times when I have invited good, competent people to this site, people interested in both writing AND role-playing communities, people who would have served our site well, and they end up leaving within days because there is something in the site that sits badly with them.

In any event, Saxon is right, even if he expresses himself in more extreme terms than I would use. The only way to turn Althanas around is to be active, to recruit, and to advertise. But while advertisements and word-of-mouth can go a long way, the quality of our community--i.e. the quality of the product we offer--is the most important quantity for member attraction and retention.

[Visla Eraclaire]

It's hard to take "turning Althanas around" very seriously when it's been more or less the same site for the better part of a decade and every month or two we get a topic about how we desperately need to do x or y.

We gain more quality members by steady accretion than we do by heavy-handed attempts at "recruiting." We generate more activity by just doing what we enjoy than by engaging in a bluster of posts only to tire out. We get further moving forward than dredging up topics that died a couple months ago where even the topic creator admits that they're played out.

Ironically, if I were a new member, I would find this topic itself very off-putting. It paints the site as far more troubled than it is. People are so desperate to talk about something 'important' that they imagine problems. Nothing about solo questing 'metaphor' or not is a problem. So, new members, if you've survived the apocalyptic rhetoric and prattle, let me tell you something: We're fine. We're so fine in fact that we have time to waste worrying about nothing. If you're looking to write with someone, send me a message.

It's fall, going into winter. That's all. I'm tired of hearing about the sky falling, elitism, and deep-seated faults with everything every turn of the season. I used to be part of the mob crying out about these things, but I think everyone will find if you step back a little, take in the big picture, and get some perspective, there is nothing happening that hasn't happened before and won't happen again.

Just keep writing and enjoying yourself and stop worrying about 'the site'.

[Sighter Tnailog]

Fair enough.