Combat Orientation

[Visla Eraclaire]

The Magus Cup thread is being overrun by commentary on the difficulties had by non-combat oriented characters. This is in part my fault, and so I've made a separate topic to discuss it.

I'll now summarize what I see as the points thus far.

POINT: Tournaments (and Althanas generally) puts a lot of emphasis on combat over anything else. Non-combatant characters are disadvantaged by this.

REPLY 1: This is not a fault of the system, but rather of people or of the fantasy genre. (The International)

SUR-REPLY 1: Granted. This is the cause for why many characters do fight. They are welcome to. The issue is that many if not all of the events of Althanas prefer combat to non-combat. I don't know if you will be familiar with it, but The Cell is a prime example. One of the most interesting ideas, but combat focused. A non-combatant would be mere comic relief in a X man enter 1 man leaves type fight. Comic relief is never going to win first prize. (Visla, new in this thread)

REPLY 2: You needn't fight. People have engaged in non-combat activity in tournaments before. (Max Dirks, The International)

SUR-REPLY 2: This only works if both parties consent. If a non-combatant runs up against a fighter, he is forced to run or act confused or fight back. A combatant acts in character and does what his character does best. A non-combatant has a choice between acting in character and spending the thread fleeing, dodging, etc. or acting out of character and fighting back. If the character is a craftsman or a stealthy thief or a writer, it becomes abjectly difficult to do what the character is designed to do when pitted against a combatant in a tournament. The ability to cite counter-examples does not eliminate the problem. This is not always a problem, but it is one that a non-combatant faces which a fighter does not. (Zantetsuken, Kially Gaith, Visla)

REPLY 3: This is a forum for adventurers. Tournaments are for the bold. Those who made meek characters made their own beds. (No one has said this yet, but I anticipate it)

SUR-REPLY 3: This may be the case, and if so Althanas is welcome to declare that official policy. However, since it is a writing forum and not strictly an RP forum, I would find this unlikely. There are an increasing number of unconventional non-combatant characters. Visla would be one of them if I hadn't compromised somewhat at character creation and given her at least a minimal ability to fight. I did that because of this very problem. I knew if I wanted to be part of Althanas-wide tournaments and other such competitions, I would need to be able to battle. Battles have long been the preferred method of leveling (for those who consider the forum a game, this is not my concern, but one I have noted) because they are quick, rewarding, and require little planning. While both a quest and a battle need good writing, a battle describes a time-span of as little as a few minutes, while a quest could stretch to years. Granted, a long thread of equal quality should always get more xp, but battles are just easier to make. But I digress. Non-combatant are here. Althanas ought to be more accommodating. I hear this is going to be the case soon, so I'm not particularly riled up about it, but I wouldn't mind more information from the staff on these upcoming changes.

FINAL NOTE: As I stated, the Magus Cup is already underway and whatever problems might exist will continue to exist in that tournament. This is focused on the future.

[Taskmienster]

Comic relief is never going to win first prize. (Visla, new in this thread)

In one LCC, I think it was, Ter-thok and Chroma Rockskin won and both characters were barely combat oriented, more gimick characters that won through comic relief. Lol. Just a side note.


As for fighting character's being paramount, there are a few side notes for quests at least. My only JC was with a character, Lugh, (which was lost due to one of the crashes around '06) was almost purely non-combat. It was all character development and creating a realistic world that was written well enough to gain a great score.

I remember reading some of yours back with Alcolyte Boshe and I believe a lot of them weren't combat oriented, though they were amazing threads. And there are characters like Ataraxis who's a librarian and seemstress, lol.


As for tournaments, I'd like to see those not oriented to battling, and am welcome to accept and flesh out idea's that are non-combat if people are interested in posting idea's for them.


For the current tournament, however, I think it'd be best to attempt to stick to battling unless you'd like to write something with your opponent that is oriented in a different way.... but you'd have to get consent from the opponent and flesh out and idea ahead of time in order for this to work well.


Thank's Vilsa for taking this to another thread, btw.

(I'm off to work, but I'll check up on this when I get back later today.)

[Visla Eraclaire]

Yes, when questing, non-combat oriented characters can do spectacularly. I think the whole issue is with the tournaments, which are a massive source of character advancement.

I, myself, am not terribly concerned with being some absurd double-digit level, but for someone who wants to "progress" in that manner, fighting is the way to go. If one wants to toil as I did with Bosche and Mephisto writing numerous solo quests and advancing a long term plot arc, it is possible to get somewhere without battling or participating in tournaments. However, you'll note that desite a JC or two to their names, those characters were only level 2, easily surpassed by a battler in a few stray threads.

That to me seems like a flaw. It's one I discussed a great deal when I was a judge, the imbalance between battle and quest xp. Frankly, from what I've seen more recently, that's gotten a lot better. I'm no longer able to look under the hood and see what calculations you folks are doing, but it seems like a much more level playing field.

Still, I don't think issue is so much advancement as opportunity for inclusion. Tournaments are big events for Althanas, they're what people remember and constantly reference. There are some people which religiously read the threads of other posters, but the biggest chance to get your name out there and be part of something memorable (for better or worse) is the tournaments.

I give you the following example from my own character, which I will note is not the most extreme one possible. Visla is capable of fighting and not a pacifist. However, this problem remains:

I have signed up for a tournament. Why in the world would I? I know why I, the player, would. Why would Visla participate in such a thing? She doesn't care about wealth or prestige. She's frail, conflict averse, and has more important things to do. Still, I want to participate in something like this on Althanas, so I'll have to manufacture some kind of reason. It will be somewhat hackneyed and it'll likely lose me a few points.

Average player has signed up for the tournament. His character is a street tough, or a crusading knight, or a cocky battlemage or any of a dozen other stereotypical "adventurer" types. He wants in and his character wants in too. No problem and everyone's happy.

Now, as I mentioned before, one might say that's my own fault for making a character that isn't likely to participate in tournaments. Maybe, but do we really want to encourage all players to create cookie-cutter characters that are competitive and brash? I would think not.

My solution to the problem stems from something that was echoed time and time again during the dreadful Invitational tournament. It isn't about the fight; it's about the writing. Set up a tournament whereby there are the same time limits, there are the same sorts of "match ups" but the form is not set the same way. The tournament is entirely an OOC construct, OR alternatively, is a supernatural construct rather than one of mortal agency.

Let me elaborate. Normal tournament structure dictates two (or however many) people have a thread together and they have X amount of time to make Y posts and whoever scores the best wins. The settings are determined by the first poster or by the tournament, and I'd say more than 9 times out of 10 they exchange volleys of attack and defend until time runs out and then try to toss in a conclusion.

Here is how my tournament would be set up. Rather than saying here's a thread, you two compete, the situation would be more like a vignette. You two, you have X amount of time to write about topic Y. Y could be a setting, a theme, another character, anything.

Each round has one topic that is announced at the beginning. Yes, making the topics takes effort, and balancing them is difficult as well, but if they were written broadly enough and well enough, they would produce a balanced competition.

Now, how does the tournament happen IN CHARACTER. Option 1: It does not. Like vignettes, the happenings are only as cannonical as their writers wish and the rewards are not recognized IN WORLD. Option 2: It is of supernatural origin. A powerful sect of mages, planeswalkers, or deities watches Althanas and their chosen scions are annointed with power and fame. These people needn't seek their rewards, for the entities are ever watchful.


If this interests the staff, contact me further. As I've described it, I'm becoming quite enamored with the idea.

[Requiem of Insanity]

That tournament structure makes the most sense for all parties on Althanas. A vignette like structure of tournament can actually include everyone and there is no awkward situation.

If I may be allowed to add to your idea, or expand upon it, it could be a tournament with teams (yes I know, team battles usually flop, but go with me here) that are set up with Combat character/Non-Combat character. Then their first round is solving the puzzle/ beating the bad guys in your first round.

Example: Cassandra is a non combat character, but has a high intellect for solving puzzles or tracking people down for her torture.

Godhand is more attuned to the role of Combat. Together they get the prompt,
"A group of theives has stolen an item from each of you, and you both have to work together to find them."

So now Godhand and I would work up a story for our round to get our stuff back. This actually includes our ability to work together, come up with a feasible writing plot, and hell, godhand can beat the shit out of everyone while Cassandra goes off into a corner and tortures the crap out of the ring leader.

That's just an example of the idea. I really dig vignettes as well, because they are one off types of situations. If I saw a tourny where I didn't have to fight mongo number 5 i may be more inclined to join in them.

[Bear Man]

Not to chime in about what I don't know about, but I've been reading this with interest and I have one thing to point out:


Average player has signed up for the tournament. His character is a street tough, or a crusading knight, or a cocky battlemage or any of a dozen other stereotypical "adventurer" types. He wants in and his character wants in too. No problem and everyone's happy.

Now, as I mentioned before, one might say that's my own fault for making a character that isn't likely to participate in tournaments. Maybe, but do we really want to encourage all players to create cookie-cutter characters that are competitive and brash? I would think not.

Say what? It is possible to create a non-stereotypical, non-cliched character who still can fight decently. Not everyone has to be BIG MCLARGEHUGE, DEATH KNIGHT or PUNCH ROCKGROIN, STREET SAVVY BRAWLER, or BLAST FIRECALLER, WIZARD OF PWNAGE.

I was just a lil' insulted by that, although frankly I rarely create combat-oriented characters. Except for this site, where I specifically did make a big fighty tough character just because of the tournaments and the Citadel.

So I guess in conclusion, all I really have to say (besides from my amusing names...wait, one more: HULK MANFIST, PALADIN OF JUSTICE AND BEATING SHIT UP) is that the system definitely does encourage making combat-based characters. Or at least it did for me.

I definitely didn't just make this post for an excuse to say PUNCH ROCKGROIN. Definitely not. I mean, that would just be stupid!

[Caden Law]

While not a tourney-goer and certainly no longer a member of staff, something about this thread got under my skin. Specifically:
I give you the following example from my own character, which I will note is not the most extreme one possible. Visla is capable of fighting and not a pacifist. However, this problem remains:

I have signed up for a tournament. Why in the world would I? I know why I, the player, would. Why would Visla participate in such a thing? She doesn't care about wealth or prestige. She's frail, conflict averse, and has more important things to do. Still, I want to participate in something like this on Althanas, so I'll have to manufacture some kind of reason. It will be somewhat hackneyed and it'll likely lose me a few points.That's easy. She got dragooned into it (someone put a geas on her, someone took her poodle hostage, someone bribed her into doing it so she could artfully take the fall in Round ???, whatever). Classic Reluctant Hero archetype. For all your talk of being more interested in roleplay than in combat, you seem to find great difficulty in coming up with a simple backstory. And it's a poor roleplayer or writer who hides behind the excuse of But my character would never do X...

There's also the FQ. It might be adventure-oriented, but it's RP and writing and it'd be fairly easy to write a good quest-line up involving things that play to your character's strengths. You don't have to stick to the mission boards and even if you do, there are usually a few missions where you don't expect to see nothing but combat from start to finish -- and you could easily stretch those out.


Now, as I mentioned before, one might say that's my own fault for making a character that isn't likely to participate in tournaments. Maybe, but do we really want to encourage all players to create cookie-cutter characters that are competitive and brash? I would think not.You're right here. We encourage players to make what they want at the time and work from there. I made Caden to be a squishy Wizard and now he's a half-competent swordsman. You made Visla to be a flimsy social recluse and now her profile basically hints that she's a ticking black magic time bomb. Roleplay, and storytelling in general, does not have to be all depth and fancy words. A brash and competitive cookie-cutter can be a hell of a lot more fun to play than either of the archetypes our characters represent, and that's why most people go for it.


My solution to the problem stems from something that was echoed time and time again during the dreadful Invitational tournament. It isn't about the fight; it's about the writing. Set up a tournament whereby there are the same time limits, there are the same sorts of "match ups" but the form is not set the same way. The tournament is entirely an OOC construct, OR alternatively, is a supernatural construct rather than one of mortal agency.

<snip>

Here is how my tournament would be set up. Rather than saying here's a thread, you two compete, the situation would be more like a vignette. You two, you have X amount of time to write about topic Y. Y could be a setting, a theme, another character, anything.

Each round has one topic that is announced at the beginning. Yes, making the topics takes effort, and balancing them is difficult as well, but if they were written broadly enough and well enough, they would produce a balanced competition.

Now, how does the tournament happen IN CHARACTER. Option 1: It does not. Like vignettes, the happenings are only as cannonical as their writers wish and the rewards are not recognized IN WORLD. Option 2: It is of supernatural origin. A powerful sect of mages, planeswalkers, or deities watches Althanas and their chosen scions are annointed with power and fame. These people needn't seek their rewards, for the entities are ever watchful....yeah, I hate to be non-civil here and I've really been biting my tongue this entire post, but your solution stinks. Sorry.

Option #1 has so many flaws in it I'm having trouble which one to single out first (the potential problems judging it, the problems most people will have conforming to it, the lack of involvement between combatants, the fact that it seems just plain boring...).

And Option #2 is the same thing you were railing against a few paragraphs ago!
Why in the world would I? I know why I, the player, would. Why would Visla participate in such a thing? [...] Still, I want to participate in something like this on Althanas, so I'll have to manufacture some kind of reason. It will be somewhat hackneyed and it'll likely lose me a few points.

Option 2: It is of supernatural origin. A powerful sect of mages, planeswalkers, or deities watches Althanas and their chosen scions are annointed with power and fame.That basically speaks for itself. Again, sorry.

[Saxon]

Tournaments are meant for competition, so naturally combat would be an ideal choice to help fuel the idea that two writers or roleplayers are going to be competing against one another. I understand not all players are combat-oriented, but I've also seen some of the tournaments or events that have been non-combat oriented.

I think it was within the first year I joined there was a tournament that came up that was pretty much quest-based with people forming teams and completing objectives. The idea was a breath of fresh air now that I look back at it, but the way it was executed made it into a convoluted mess. So, there are options out there to start tournaments or events that have little to do with combat (Featured Quest anyone?), but it'll take some doing to plan these events and follow through with them accordingly.


I have signed up for a tournament. Why in the world would I? I know why I, the player, would. Why would Visla participate in such a thing? She doesn't care about wealth or prestige. She's frail, conflict averse, and has more important things to do. Still, I want to participate in something like this on Althanas, so I'll have to manufacture some kind of reason. It will be somewhat hackneyed and it'll likely lose me a few points.

The problem with backstories within tournaments and reasons as to characters being there has been around for longer then I remember. The simple solution is to either create a simple backstory or not to have one. I still don't understand why it is judges need to even consider why a character decided to participate in these events or as to their motives for doing so because it's a completely frivilious issue that nobody should lose points over. It's unnecessary and should remain optional. If it's within a tournament that focuses on combat then the judges should be focusing on just that; combat. The same problem occurred within the ToC when the rules were written or it was suggested that players try to create some sort of backstory with their characters and that it'd weigh in with the score. It's an unfair, arbitrary idea to make people try to come up with reasons that detract from their match as to some complex reason why they need to be there in order to balance story with combat, and is probably something that needs to be reviewed as to it's merits in future tournaments.

But on the same token, I'd like to understand why you'd want to participate in a tournament if you don't find your character up to the task in the first place? Everybody is different in how they approach a tournament, and I understand some folks are saying that you can win a tournament without actual combat but I wouldn't flirt with the idea if I were you. Most of the characters I've designed deal with close-quarters combat in some way or another because it focuses on my strengths and my ability to write out action. I also enjoy the idea of having my character take a knife and drag it across someone's carotid artery, but everyone's different. Instead of trying to play a character that is made to fit into every possible niche of Althanas, I'd recommend sticking to your strengths and that if you don't enjoy competing against players combatively then simply don't do it.

Another idea is to segregate different play styles with different characters. Keep Visla as a quest-oriented character, but make another character that is designed for some sort of combat to make it easier on you as a player/writer to fit into these tournaments if the option appeals to you. It's been done before and by a lot of other people over the years, and it works. Think about it.

I'd like to repeat what's been said by Caden that the Featured Quest is an event that can or cannot be combat oriented depending on how you choose to play it. It's been around for awhile, but now we're in the process of starting the next chapter on July 31st, which will be some time this week it looks like. If you don't want to participate in a combat-oriented tournament to get on the fast track with your character or whatever other reasons you might have, then I really urge you to take advantage of the opportunity of the FQ and make the most of it while it's still around.

EDIT: I also liked the idea of a writing competition like you suggested earlier, but with an addendum. Instead of trying to come up with IC reasons for characters being there, just write and forget about trying to fit it into some over-arching idea or construct around your character or the event itself. Have two people be given a topic and they can write on it within the time limit (probably with two different threads) and then have the threads judged. The person who better writes according to the topic wins and advances. Hell, maybe your characters don't even need to be in it, maybe you could write it with any setting or any character you choose if it manages to play to your strengths. Just a thought.

Either way, if this idea comes up on the chopping block as to whether or not to do it, I'm in full support of trying it out to see how people take to it.

[Visla Eraclaire]

To start, I think the way this topic is going has set things a little bit too much confrontationally (ironic?). I don't want to start a non-fighting vs fighting battle. I'm just saying, those who love fighting have a lot of avenues. Why not have a tournament based on writing on a variety of topics? I think given the alleged writing purpose of the forum, this would better test the ability of the participants than a series of IC duels.


Again, sorry.

Don't apologize for disagreeing with me. I'm not going to cry. I won't bother to address all your points, except to say that I think there's a difference between the TOURNAMENT having a sort of deus-ex-machina explanation built into it (Thaynes giving favors) vs having to advance such an explanation as part of my character (I've been geased to participate in the tournament).

I don't think the tournament system is AWFUL and INCURABLE and SUPER UNFAIR. Fighting tournaments are what Althanas wants, for the most part. I think one tournament that runs differently is fine.

And frankly, I think the current tournament IC explanations are pretty lackluster, so even my flimsy deity based one seems to make more sense than holding battle tournaments given the circumstances of the world. Given that fact, I conclude that tournaments aren't really that much an IC event and are mostly an OOC event. I think my tournament concept meets needs OOC. If its IC explanation is a little flimsy, oh well... it's in the same boat as all the other tournaments in that respect.

Moving on to other things that people have brought up.

The FQ: The FQ is great, but it is the FQ and not a tournament. Also, the FQ is essentially a war.

My Character: I really shouldn't have used myself as an example because I have no interest in explaining my character motivations. Yes, my character has tended toward greater and greater spellpower as I have leveled her. If I get the time, anyone who cares will see that to be a temporary trend.

Why do you want to do the tournament anyway? I like competition. I don't do much of it on here, and I'd like to. It's as simple as that. I see no reason that we have numerous beatstick centered tournaments and not one like the one I described. If it's a flop, it's a flop. The Invitational was a flop and that didn't stop anyone :p

Cookie-Cutter Fighters My statements were not intended to suggest that anyone who wants to fight is a stereotype. Fighting happens to be a common feature in shallow characters, but it is by no means a necessary or sufficient factor. I would also like to give Bear Man massive bonus points for his Space Munity reference.

Multiple Characters This is an option, certainly, but I prefer to advance and tell a single story at a time. I'm aware this puts me in the minority. As a lot of people are mentioning, there are workarounds for this problem. I've been doing these sorts of things for years now (questing mostly, making second characters, not caring about the reason for the battle and doing it anyway).

One Final Note I'm always somewhat staggered by the resistance that some people put up against new ideas. I found nothing anyone's said so far offensive in the least, but Caden is talking about biting his tongue. What is so apalling about this idea that you have to bite your tongue? Worst case scenario for you: This idea happens, you don't participate.

The general recalcitrance of the forum is something I will never understand.

[Bear Man]

I would also like to give Bear Man massive bonus points for his Space Munity reference.

I was hoping that someone would pick up on the MST3K references. :p

And, just so that this post isn't completely off-topic:

While we're on the subject of a non-combat tournament, I personally think that a riddling contest would be mad cool. It fits into the fantasy theme very well (The Hobbit, or The Waste Lands, anyone?) and I think that gives a lot of opportunities for character development. I'd like to do that sometime, anyway. Heck, non-fighting battles sound cool to me in general. But seeing as I've never been in a tournament or completed so much as one battle thread, I really don't think I can say. :o

[Taskmienster]

Visla, your idea is F-ing brilliant. I’d like to work IC reasoning behind tourney’s, tie them into the regions and work hand in hand with developing them a little more so that people can get in them with reason. :p

I love the concept of the vignette style tournament. If you have AIM catch me on TheTaskmienster.


For all your talk of being more interested in roleplay than in combat, you seem to find great difficulty in coming up with a simple backstory. And it's a poor roleplayer or writer who hides behind the excuse of But my character would never do X...

If you’ve read anything that Visla’s written, you’d know that the character and the writer behind her are both continuity and plotline thick. It’s not an excuse, or fair to call someone a poor roleplayer, if the character wouldn’t realistically fit into something. I mean, scores are hurt when a character is developed for one thing and forced by the writer into something they don’t fit into.


On the note of the tournament that Saxon spoke of:

It was called The Adventurer’s Crown. Teams of 3-4 people were formed, and given missions per round. They were given a little more time to complete these missions than they would have been given had it been a battling tournament, but the result was the same really. Instead of fighting, the players were given complete creative control over the situation, and in turn were allowed to battle if they fit that or simply adventure and not fight if that worked for them. It was those groups writing quests for each round that made it different.

Had it been better orchestrated, in the long run it was a lot of inactivity and dropping that made it not work (what a surprised :p), it would have been amazing. However, I don’t see why it couldn’t work. It was basically an event where everyone’s quests tied into a larger storyline that arched over the entire tournament structure. What people did in one quest was tied to how things happened in the next round with those that scored high enough to get out of the first round… and so on.

I wouldn’t be opposed to trying that one again, since I loved it, but had to drop it because a) 2 of the 4 people involved in that on my team dropped out, leaving just Lugh and Ciancth b) me (being Lugh) and Ciancth (my ex-gf) were both going to basic the next month so we couldn’t continue anyway.

[Caden Law]

One Final Note I'm always somewhat staggered by the resistance that some people put up against new ideas. I found nothing anyone's said so far offensive in the least, but Caden is talking about biting his tongue. What is so apalling about this idea that you have to bite your tongue? Worst case scenario for you: This idea happens, you don't participate.Alright, I won't bite my tongue for this one: Your posts so far read like a snide, self-important, unimaginative little shit who fits into the classic mold of a Stop Having Fun Guy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys) with regards to common characters and the usual tournament structure. Happy now? :p Therein lies the heart of what made me post. You apologized for that, I apologized pre-emptively, hilarity has ensued, all's well that ends well. Moving along.


If you’ve read anything that Visla’s written, you’d know that the character and the writer behind her are both continuity and plotline thick. It’s not an excuse, or fair to call someone a poor roleplayer, if the character wouldn’t realistically fit into something. I mean, scores are hurt when a character is developed for one thing and forced by the writer into something they don’t fit into.A character can be realistically made to do anything. It's just a matter of how creatively the player approaches the situation and how many options the character has. If character X would not normally do action Y then introduce factor Z and giggle like a maniac. The only challenge involved is doing it well. In the interest of not derailing the topic, I'll leave my gripes at that.

Carry on, folks. G'luck with the vignetourney thing. :)

[Visla Eraclaire]

Alright, I won't bite my tongue for this one: Your posts so far read like a snide, self-important, unimaginative little shit who fits into the classic mold of a Stop Having Fun Guy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys) with regards to common characters and the usual tournament structure. Happy now? :p Therein lies the heart of what made me post. You apologized for that, I apologized pre-emptively, hilarity has ensued, all's well that ends well. Moving along.

Except that I'm not telling people to stop making fighting characters or trying to stop their fighting tournaments or suggesting that those things are bad (something I have repeatedly disclaimed). They're perfectly fine for some people.

I'm trying to add something for different sorts of people. That's why I find your hostility so surprising. How can someone who is suggesting a new tournament structure be unimaginative? You're acting as if I presented an extremist, straw-man version of what I actually said, when I've actually made a specific effort to point out I was not trying to attack what other people are doing.

Some people are always going to find a way to inject vitriol into my posts whether it's there or not. Hope you enjoy it, at least.

People (and by extension characters) can be made to do stuff by outside circumstances introduced by the writer, however, I feel this is a classic sign of poorly done, heavy-handed writing. It's a philosophical choice in writing style. I think it's a bad thing. Some people like having stories driven by fate or circumstance. I find such things tiresome and lazy. I think a good story should flow entirely from the motivations of its characters whenever possible. Obviously, the world exists. It's out there and it's going to do things to your character that they can't control, but that shouldn't be what drives a story, in my mind.

Not everyone writes that way and not every circumstance driven story is bad, but I think that, like all techniques, if you lean too heavily on circumstance you're crippling your story in other respects. There's a reason why deus ex machina solutions are considered bad. They come from nowhere and not from the working out of a story's inherent theme.

Now I said some pretty harsh things about that style of writing. Make no mistake, I don't despise people who write that way. I just hold myself up to my own standards and refuse, for the most part, from letting circumstance drive things too much. If I do have something happen from circumstance, I like it to feel deserved, or the opposite. It shouldn't be random.

Example: A greedy person is robbed. It's a circumstance, but the reader feels vindicated because that was a deserved occurance. On the other hand, an innocent is harmed grievously while trying to help someone. The exact opposite, it's a complete tragedy, but it isn't random in any event.

Ok, so enough literary theory sidebar I guess. I'll be talking to Task about this idea. If people have more suggestions, feel free to post them.

I'd appreciate if anyone just wants to say "I don't like this" or "We don't need this" or "I won't participate" to at least tell me what you think could be added to make you interested. If nothing can be done, there's no reason to post.

[Taskmienster]

Your posts so far read like a snide, self-important, unimaginative little shit who fits into the classic mold of a Stop Having Fun Guy with regards to common characters and the usual tournament structure.

Honestly, if "snide, self-important, unimaginative" can be accurately placed on a person for coming up with a new, inventive way to perform a tournament... that sucks. I'd hate to be one of those types of people for having an original and unique storyline, character, thread, tournament idea, or anything else... :p

[Relt PeltFelter]

In one LCC, I think it was, Ter-thok and Chroma Rockskin won and both characters were barely combat oriented, more gimick characters that won through comic relief. Lol. Just a side note.

FOR THE RECORD, good sir, we won through applied utilization of psychosis and discomfort, I'll have you know. But the fact that anyone remembered it warms my heart, so thank you.

I have to agree, though, that there is a heavy focus on combat. I was one of those dudes who, I guess, "dungeon-mastered" in the Adventurer's Crown, and that was some of the most fun I had writing here, setting up challenges for hapless detectives.

There's a lot to be said for non-combat threads, but it's a shame that they seem so hard to come by. A tournament based entirely on alternative methods of roleplay, like the Adventurer's Crown, would be well received.

[Max Dirks]

A few things to consider:
There have been three quest based tournaments: the Anebrilith Hunter's, and two Adventurer's Crowns. None have been finished. Poor organization and drop outs were not the reason they failed. One failed due to the first forum crash. The others weren't completed because the concept simply required far more man power and participation than possible on Althanas at the time. Rather than continue the tournament we've opted to follow the feature quest route (ironically none of those have truly finished either). We've had many tournaments with back stories and many without them. Non-combat characters should love those without because there is no need for a character to string their encounters as such. In the original tournament, the Serenti Invitational, neither of the finalists referred to the tournament in their battles. The Magus Cup is the same way. This type also makes it handy for moderators because they don't have to "game master." Most importantly, you don't have to battle in a tournament (even if it has a back story). Cooperation breeds higher scores. To not communicate during a battle spells disaster for both participants. I can't really buy the argument that in a regular Althanas tournament the parties don't communicate. Visla, the only thing I don't like about your tournament idea is that it doesn't support the role-play aspect of the site. The staff are sticklers about no IC rewards for OOC activity. If you do a vignette about the same topic that doesn't include your character or any interaction with others then it's not really about the site.

[Taskmienster]

But if it's changed in a way that the general Vignette portion of the rounds would be broad enough for any character to be part of, they could tell a story about a topic. Then it would be like a small solo quest per character about a prompt given.

[Godhand]

What's this!? Someone five-starred Visla's stupid thread!

ASSHOLEMAN, AWAAAAYYYYY!

[Taskmienster]

No more trolling please. Thanks.

[Saxon]

Visla, the only thing I don't like about your tournament idea is that it doesn't support the role-play aspect of the site. The staff are sticklers about no IC rewards for OOC activity. If you do a vignette about the same topic that doesn't include your character or any interaction with others then it's not really about the site.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of writing over roleplaying. We should try this idea to see how people like it, but I'm starting to see some of the potential problems you're trying to mention. Namely, I guess, is player interaction. But, still, I don't think people would mind it too much. People can be given prompts and objectives to accomplish and write those out in timed threads, then they'd be judged. The winner is declared with the thread that is best written to the prompt. Besides, we just got out of a tournament that made folks stick to prompts for setting, I don't see why we can't use a more elaborated format for another kind of tournament.

Essentially it'd be like a writing contest and then judges grade each entry to see who would win, I guess.

EDIT: Forget what I said about IC rewards for OOC activity. Things like multiple characters should be probably decided later if we manage to adopt this idea.

[AdventWings]

I have a few ideas about a non-combat tournament running through my head, though I do realize it will take a lot of manpower as well as game-mastering. Running a tournament, as you've experienced, is rather taxing especially when you don't have enough hands on the wheels.

The Vignette Tourney concept is an interesting one, but without some form of "link" to the overall tournament it's going to be an OOC Tourney. I have a proposition that will work with this, though I should probably talk to the Mods about it first... :p

[The International]

Visla I acknowledge your need for a more accommodating in-character and out-of-character situation in which you and like minded players can compete more comfortably. I can relate to that. Like I said in the thread before, neither my character nor his cast of npcs would enter a tournament with an arena, spectators, or with the intent of gaining public recognition. They're spies. Not the James Bond type that announce their presence everywhere they go, but the more realistic types who really can't afford to be seen on that scale. Yes The Cell is interesting, but ICly it would be a risk for my character to enter. On top of that I don't think I'd be able to function in a writer's version of a battle royal, so I'm not entering that tournament. I like your tournament idea. It would be very much like the vignette contest on a larger scale so long as you don't throw too many stipulations and elements in there. That's why I won't be entering half of the tournaments I've been told about. I'm not about to do a tag team thing and have my personal progress depend on someone who could easily disappear, and I sure as hell aint going to switch bodies with someone else and their character. However, I'm sure there are plenty of writers that would have a field day with those scenarios and they have. Just for the record if you had put it like this from the very beginning...
I'm just saying, those who love fighting have a lot of avenues. Why not have a tournament based on writing on a variety of topics? I think given the alleged writing purpose of the forum, this would better test the ability of the participants than a series of IC duels. A lot of time would have been saved.

What I think a great number of us have been trying to get across to you is that you have a responsibility in your character's story that may be a little further than you may like. In a Creative Writing Class a professor will give you a premise, list of requirements, and you write. There's no telling him that the premise doesn't match your taste, and in order to get a good grade you have to get creative. This is a creative writing forum/game, and in order to be successful at this game we all need to get creative. I'll provide you with an example of my own. When Letho returned and presented the Corone Civil War Quests I wanted to be a part of it, but I knew my characters would be reluctant to take a side given the current stalemate between the factions. Nevertheless I chose a quest and pondered over the story for an hour or two and came up with a good premise. Since the family goes from region to region selling goods by day and doing big spy stuff at night, one with enough information on their exploits could easily frame them for being the murderers of the leaders of the Republic because by this time the people don't care if it could be proven. They just want someone to blame.
People (and by extension characters) can be made to do stuff by outside circumstances introduced by the writer, however, I feel this is a classic sign of poorly done, heavy-handed writing.That's exactly what I just did and I'm pretty sure it wasn't poorly done or heavy handed. Some of the best stories in history were about people doing things they didn't want to do. Going back to the concept of the Cell I'm pretty sure if I wanted to compete in it I could create a very good, very believable reason and way for him to get into it. These are challenges created by the game side of the Althanas concept, and they should be welcome challenges for us as players. Having an in character background story for a tournament as you have suggested will be a challenge for some players, and they should welcome it. A non-combat situation will definitely be a challenge to some players, and they should welcome it. I wholeheartedly welcome both challenges, but a classic Althanas tournament with no in character background that allows players to build a story from scratch is a challenge too. It's a challenge that you don't seem to welcome since you feel that you are at a seemingly unfair disadvantage. If your tournament ends up happening, people are going to be making the same complaint you're making about these tournaments, and I'm going to tell them the same thing I'll tell you...

Get creative and write better.

[Visla Eraclaire]

A If you do a vignette about the same topic that doesn't include your character or any interaction with others then it's not really about the site.

I never actually said that it should not include your character. That was someone else's suggestion. I think that may be a bridge too far, for Althanas. Frankly, I think a pure writing forum is a good thing, but that isn't what Althanas is. My tournament premise would still require the incorporation of the player's character. NPCs under the control of the writer would of course be possible, but if the character took too much of a back seat to the other people without some reason or purpose, the score would suffer, just like in a quest.

As for the failure of previous quest based tournaments, I recall them. As I recall, they attempted to run a quest (things that take neigh on forever to finish) as a tournament. My proposal is different. It's based on the vignette concept that has been wildly successful so far.

A number of topics are created by the tournament organizing staff. They are randomly assigned either to pairs of competitors OR to a round at a time, depending on how you want to run things. Either each pair writes on a given topic or everyone is writing on the same topic each round. It depends on whether you value consistancy and fairness over variety and interest. I would favor the latter, but it would also require more topics. Additionally, it would add more of an element of chance as to whether people got "good" or "bad" topics for their characters. Frankly, though, I would write the themes so broadly that they could be just about anything.

I think the key element to the success of a vignette based tournament is a time limit, just like regular tournamants. Two weeks, at least five posts per person, or maybe more, whatever people decided was appropriate. Most importantly, because it isn't an I post- You post battle, people could complete their entries without having to worry about others dropping out.

In fact, if everyone was writing on the same topic, matchups where one side dropped out or failed to complete could be paired up. That is to say, Player A and Player B are a pair as are C and D. B and D fail to post, leaving A and C in a lurch. In a battle tournament, both A and C advance uncontested. In this situation, A and C could have their writing compared so that no one moved on without being tested. Of course, this would have complications for the bracket. At the same time, there needn't be pairing at all. It could simply be 20 people enter, the first round, 10 advance, the best 10. And so on. The difficulty with that is the consistency between different judges unless one person reads all twenty. Still, if they were only 5 or so posts, that wouldn't be impossible.

In any event, logistics are one thing and I believe are no more difficult than any other tournament format, and may in fact be easier. The point is that I think the idea has some currency with the members and would be worth trying.

-----------------------

International, you've completely missed the point, I think, and gone off on precisely the tangent I have attempted to avoid. I have attempted repeatedly to correct your misapprehension but you are quite determined to think I am saying things which I am not. Do as you like, but please realize that what you are discussing is not the thrust of this topic. If it ever was, it no longer is. If you insist on believing this topic was about negativism and complaints, you should at least accept that it has risen above such things.

At the very least, however, your last line gave me a good chuckle. If you knew anything at all about me, you'd know I welcome challenges and I really don't much care about disadvantages. I advance ideas on principle and not because I am personally offended. It's something people fail to grasp time and again, but it really wouldn't be Althanas without someone doing it. So thanks for making it feel like home.

[The International]

POINT: Tournaments (and Althanas generally) puts a lot of emphasis on combat over anything else. Non-combatant characters are disadvantaged by this. That point, your elaboration of it, and your solutions regarding it are what I was directly addressing. That was the first post of this thread. And now you're saying this?
At the very least, however, your last line gave me a good chuckle. If you knew anything at all about me, you'd know I welcome challenges and I really don't much care about disadvantages.Forgive my tardiness on responding to what I perceived to be the thrust of the topic. Perhaps you're right. It may no longer be so, but I never said or meant to imply that it was about complaints and negativism. It was more about the subject of the site, its trends, and how we could go about thriving in it instead of objecting to it.

I'll move on, however. Enough is enough, and for what it's worth I did say I like your tournament idea.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I don't care much about my personal disadvantages. That is not inconsistent with being aware that certain characters, some much moreso than I, are in fact disadvantaged. The first post was intended to summarize the discussion thus far in a previous thread. In every post since then I have been elaborating on an idea that, whether you believe there is a disadvantage or not and whether you care or not, should make Althanas a more diverse and interesting place.

I'm glad you've caught up now. As I said earlier, it was an error to use my character as an example. People since then have falsely believed this is some personal issue that I am griping about. Trust me, if I were personally bothered by the battle-focus of Althanas, I wouldn't be here after all these years trying to improve the place.

Do remember that there is more to people than one post, much of which happened long before you got here. That isn't meant to say "I'm old, you're new, so you're wrong." Just try to keep it in mind before reading too much into a topic I might make in the future.

I'll be talking to Task when I get off work tomorrow to flesh out some details on this, I hope. Tuesday is going to be a long day in court, but hopefully I can spare some time tomorrow before I crash.

[Rayse Valentino]

Hey guys, what's going on in this thread? I have enjoyed this thread, yes sir!


POINT: Tournaments (and Althanas generally) puts a lot of emphasis on combat over anything else. Non-combatant characters are disadvantaged by this.

REPLY 1: This is not a fault of the system, but rather of people or of the fantasy genre. (The International)

Nope. Althanas is a combat-oriented site. Has been since day 1. You can easily look around to other various sites and notice that the 'action' department of their stories does not necessarily mean two people stabbing each other. I can attest to this as having one of the only pacifist characters, Kylin Rouge. Granted, things are better nowadays in terms of non-combat opportunities, but back then it was absolutely horrid. If your character wasn't willing to murder for fun, or justice, there simply was no place for you. I couldn't really do tournaments without ICly forcing my character to be in them or just completely separating what happened in them from my character's canon.

Even quests were all about slaughtering, stealing, and supposed 'good' quests still involved a good deal of combat. I liked continuity too, was a real stickler for what 'made sense' for my character to do, and to be frank most of the content was nonsensical for any character with a moral compass.


That's easy. She got dragooned into it (someone put a geas on her, someone took her poodle hostage, someone bribed her into doing it so she could artfully take the fall in Round ???, whatever). Classic Reluctant Hero archetype.

This was a bit earlier, but yeah. Guess what? That works for getting you in, but if you're not a combat character, you're just gonna get slaughtered and rightfully so. You have to bend over backwards to give yourself hackneyed combat abilities in order to participate no matter what.

I don't think it's that hard to think of contests where IC characters go for IC gains in a competitive fashion that doesn't involve bloodshed. Rather than have two people fight, give them a goal, sort of an adventurer's crown sort of thing but limited to two people who may be aware of their competitor or not. Give them an objective, one that may require discretion, ingenuity, or whatnot. Have them work together, or have them work against each other, but put them into the Althanas world with a mission and a time limit. Obviously, something like that is much more advanced than a fighting tournament, but it's very do-able. It's much easier to find a reason for various characters to complete objectives (some may not even need a competition-specific incentive, it could be something their characters want to do on their own).

Anyway Visla, I gave up a long time ago on installing any sort of change around here, but I suppose times have changed. Also, even though you turned me down before, if you want to do anything together I'm always around. I think you'll find I understand very well what kind of character you have.

Godhand sucks.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Anyway Visla, I gave up a long time ago on installing any sort of change around here, but I suppose times have changed. Also, even though you turned me down before, if you want to do anything together I'm always around. I think you'll find I understand very well what kind of character you have.

Godhand sucks.

I don't recall that, but I would be happy to do something once I finish my current project.

It's very easy to become frustrated about changing things here, because the default reaction is very change-averse, but hopefully the member base is different enough now that this sort of thing can succeed. If not, I don't think I've lost much.

[Kerrigan Muldoon]

I pretty much agree with Visla (and quite a lot of people, even those who don't agree with his point). If you want a change and/or addition, your best bet is to set it in motion yourself. Create a series of threads in any way you want, with any goal you want, with whomever you want. And the end of the quest(s), you've had tons of fun and if you want I am pretty sure a mod wants to give some extra bounty to whomever was a good/the best writer of the thing.

Or host a vignette type of thingy, I don't care, add to this site whatever you want to add and see if it sticks. Not like spaghetti, but more like farming what you plant.

That does take quite some time and energy from yourself, so you should decide for yourself whether or not you really want to spend so much energy in it (if not, then it probably does not really matter that much in the first place).

I think a solid point has made been. But I do not think discussing it will really add anything to it. People who don't agree will probably keep not agreeing and vica versa, and people who do not understand it should read and write.

[Taskmienster]

I think you missed everything that was said and pointed out in this thread. This isn't about doing quests and hoping that it catches on... this is a tournament/feature's idea that's been suggested to the staff and members of the site.

If it was an idea that could come about through IC events and such, then your post would make sense because that would fit. This is more of an OOC development of a possibly non-combat IC feature.

[Kerrigan Muldoon]

Yeah, but since I always am a little sceptic about adding or changing something by just passively giving an idea, I suggest to those who want to add or change that they could do it themselves. If the staff seriously wants to continue with this idea then I am all for it! :) But if not, it's perfectly allright to improvise and do it yourself I guess.

Visla said he did not care much for leveling and such, so a player hosted tournament/contest/whatever-you-like for the fun of it could be a plan. To not burden the staff any further (so they can judge a month old thread) one or more players could organise the thing themselves. The only difference would be that it wouldn't take place in the 348th sub-sub-forum ;).

[Taskmienster]

And former player run tournaments have never worked. Ithermoss ran a Thayne related Gisela style tournament that flopped. The Galaxy was a flop. If there aren't any incentives, then there's no reason to go about joining a tournament. That's why the staff generally runs them, because we can give out incentives to the winner. A player run tournament makes it impossible for the player to give out exp or weapons or gold, unless those items/money are coming from the player's pockets...

[Saxon]

And former player run tournaments have never worked. Ithermoss ran a Thayne related Gisela style tournament that flopped. The Galaxy was a flop. If there aren't any incentives, then there's no reason to go about joining a tournament. That's why the staff generally runs them, because we can give out incentives to the winner. A player run tournament makes it impossible for the player to give out exp or weapons or gold, unless those items/money are coming from the player's pockets...

To be fair, the Galaxy failed because of The Architect's frequent absences at the get-go so it never really had a chance to take off. The player base to come in and join was certainly there, it just fell apart because the person running the thing disappeared. If I remember correctly, the idea was to have every combatant throw in X amount of gold as an entry fee and it would be collected into a giant pot that would either be distributed to the winner or the winning places. It was a neat concept to have a player ran tournament that had the backing of the staff, and I know I wasn't the only one who was saddened to see it flop.

To be honest, having players come up with their own ideas and try to get people interested in them is essentially roleplaying. The idea of players pooling money or resources to divvy up as prizes for tournaments just makes it seem more tangible and real, if you know what I mean. But, for anybody else who wants to give something like that a go, plan ahead and organize an event like that so if circumstances get in the way of you being active to run it, you're not the lynchpin to the entire event. That and some good ideas that interest a lot of folks can make player events happen, in my opinion.

[Taskmienster]

Ah, I had forgotten that The Architect had started that. Makes sense now. I had originally joined the group of people that were going to be fighting in it when the registration opened, but as far as I remember there wasn't enough interest to get the registration that he wanted full. It could have run as a small tournament, though that would have been something a little harder.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Just to be clear, if the staff isn't behind this, I am not proposing a player-run tournament. I concur that they are not the best idea, especially in this context when the basis of the tournament is likely either OOC or very loose IC.