EXP and Incentives

[Max Dirks]

This is spawned primarily from the "Judging" thread, but I'm curious as to what your opinions on the EXP and the incentive systems are. The staff is primarily concerned with GP because we're trying to spice up the bazaar. Let us know what you think about everything, though.

[Visla Eraclaire]

My most recent post from that thread has more relevance here so I'll repost it and redirect such discussions here


Rather than putting a flat low score on threads that don't get 'official staff evaluation' I think you should let peers designate it. There's the possibility of favoritism but being watchful for collusion is easier than reading every thread and evaluating it anyway. It's still less of a drain on staff resources.

Rather than having peers go through the whole rubric, they're required to give a certain amount of commentary and a general evaluation. Levels that everyone can understand without dwelling on it too much, like a letter grading scale that most schoolchildren are familiar with, or something similar. The evaluator posts to say they're going to review the thread, the writer consents (I think a necessary step, but one that should be watched for abuse), the reader has a certain amount of time to get through it. If they post within the time with the amount of comments, they are rewarded. The writer is rewarded based on the grade they got. Very simple. More commenters can also get rewarded for reviewing, though, for simplicity, only the first review counts for the writer. There should be a limit to how many commenters can receive credit simply so people do not trudge through the archives trolling for exp.

The grades should have some impact on EXP but not a huge one so as not to make them too important for leveling purposes. The bigger a deal they are in that sense, the more incentive there is for abuse. Making them simply a shorthand evaluation is best.


As for EXP, I feel it's a shackle on interesting storytelling that's largely around for a battle system that runs on consent anyway. It seems to me largely unnecessary, but I realize that there are those for whom it is a big deal. I say let them have their battle profiles and their battle abilities and their slow level grind. Let those of us who just want to tell a story tell it with heroes who don't have to spent three or four threads punching out brigands before they can do something of consequence.

As for GP, it seems to accrue almost randomly. Things are far too expensive to be worth buying and are much easier to acquire by quest. If prices were lower or GP were actually earnable in a meaningful IC way, it might make more sense. As it is, GP is just a function of IC post count, more or less. Magical items cost so much that you're better off leveling and gaining your abilities that way. Also, I prefer to play my character as impoverished, so I wouldn't want IC gold anyway.

I think either it needs to be more firmly integrated as a meaningful IC concept OR it needs to be re-worked as a separate reward system OOC like EXP is.

It might actually work to have the two items as different OOC ways to advance. Rewarding different things. Let exp reward one group of people and GP reward another. Since neither of them really mean anything in the game world, it would be perfectly fine.

In character wealth would simply be a matter of roleplay.

[Twylith]

Visla, I'm just going to follow you around like a sheep, agreeing with everything you say. (Or not)

I haven't ever used the bazaar on any of my profiles. I don't wish to. I think it's a waste of time, and I tend to prefer getting items the old fashioned way: Stealing from corpses, stealing from people, stealing...

Anyway.. I'm not going to write a two page thread about my character going to the bazaar to buy magical panties. It's such a deviation from the real story, in my mind. Or maybe I'm just one of those rare women who hates shopping.

GP should be OOC, as Visla said. If I want my orphan to be poor, damnit she'll be poor. She's not going to waltz into the bazaar and buy something.. she's find other means of getting what she wants/needs.

Now, say I've written twenty threads and have a crap ton of this OOC GP sitting around. You could use it to upgrade skills, buy XP, or items. All without having to trudge through a boring bazaar thread of "I want the magical panties on the shelf please." "These?" "No the pink ones..."

[Visla Eraclaire]

Ah, that reminds me of something. As the Bazaar is, you can get EXP for your interactions with the shopkeep, but the effort they put into it is a mixed bag. The real funny thing is that if you do such an interaction as a quest, write both sides of the conversation, and likely get it done much faster and more efficiently, you gain more exp, gp, and likely get the item as a spoil without paying for it, or paying much less than the gouge prices you'd normally be charged.

I actually have a specific example. Visla once went to buy a bow that could generate its own arrows. This wasn't to do any shenanigans; I just wanted some realism as to where I was getting ammo without having to count the arrows I shot and whatnot. The idea I came up with was that it was a somewhat evil artifact where you would put blood in the quiver to get a set of arrows. If one of the arrows drew blood, they'd replenish, if not you'd have to pour some of your own in when you ran out.

Neat huh? I thought so. And not actually any more powerful than a regular bow and arrow since most people don't count arrows anyway. Well, I was told that since it was magical it would cost me a minimum of some thousand gp plus the base cost, etc. etc. I couldn't afford it. So I shoved the exact same item into a battle/quest I did with Christoph. Approved. It's in my profile now.

That's why the Bazaar is a ghost town.

OOC GP is the way to go, and I really do encourage those considering this to consider using it in an innovative way that parallels EXP. Let them just be two different kinds of "points" that you can get from... Oh I dunno, doing Althanas like a game or doing Althanas like a writing workshop. People who do both can mix em, people who do one or the other can focus and both can yield the same sort of advancement.

I know it might seem silly to "buy" levels, but remember that the whole idea of experience points is just a weird little construct anyway. We're just used to it because it's so pervasive.

[Civilized Savagery]

The main problem I'm seeing here is that there are multiple ways to go about acquiring any given "ability" you want, and people aren't interested in some of them. You could earn gold and buy a flaming sword, or you could get one in a quest, or you could level and give yourself an ability to light your sword on fire. Mechanically speaking there shouldn't be any problem with gold being IC, given that you have a system in place for that to work. It is a bit more "gamey", but at the same time it gives you a flexibility that would be unavailable if you got rid of it. For example, you might realize in the middle of a quest that you really think your character should have a new shield, but it wouldn't make any sense, and would be worse writing "Oh and then I found a shield". Instead you can go buy that shield.

Still. I also prefer a more abstract gold/wealth system, given the story-telling focus of Althanas. As far as OOC gold goes though, that seems a bit pointless to me. If you're going to make it just an alternate XP, it either needs to work in some fundamentally different way (and I don't know what that would be), or it would just be redundant.

My suggestion would be to remove gold as a value and include "wealth" as an ability. So when someone makes their character, maybe they give their character above average wealth, maybe more maybe less. It would mostly refer to their lifestyle, but writers could use their character's wealth to effect just like any other ability. Keep in mind that in a more realistic sense, you don't just hoard money, you have expenses, and if you have a lot of money, chances are you spend a lot of money too. And if you don't, hey, then you get to roleplay a miser.

[Visla Eraclaire]

That system is an excellent idea for someone who wants to play a wealthy character and include their wealth as a character ability to be considered along with others, but I don't think it's a good fit for the site as a whole.

The entire idea of OOC gold is to be redundant, because we already have people writing/playing for different reasons and having two currencies to dole out, EXP and GP, would open up a new avenue for rewarding players.

For example. perhaps we want to reward OOC competitions and tournaments with GP so that those who play as a game can benefit. Or we reward providing criticism with GP. GP can serve as the reward system that one acquires OOC to gain power IC. Guild conflicts could be rewarded in GP and other sorts of things. It could also allow for a conversion system. I.e. we want both a lvl 5 and a lvl 1 person to find this reward equally tantalizing. Instead of giving a scaling exp reward or something, we give GP and that GP is designed such that it has a value at the Bazaar (now an OOC contrivance).

I dunno, I'm getting ahead of myself here, but I think severing GP from the idea of in character wealth presents a lot of interesting options for a novel reward system that could solve many of our existing problems.

Savagery's wealth ability idea would provide an easy substitute for those who had a lot of GP wealth before we implemented this system or who want to have characters who are wealthy and gain benefit from it. It's how many pen-and-paper gaming systems deal with wealth, rather than doling out pieces of shiny metal.

[Christoph]

The World of Darkness and Exalted systems have a "Resources" rating, for example, that works very well. I would definitely prefer a ‘Wealth’ character trait to any sort of GP system. Sure, the Bazaar would them be useless, but I find it pretty pointless already, for reasons already stated in this thread. It would put the issue into the hands of individual players while still keeping things under control.

As for the actual topic of the thread, I definitely think EXP incentives in the Workshop would be at least a good start. Let’s be honest: most members don’t want to put in the work of reviewing someone else’s thread when they get nothing in return. If that weren’t the case, Althanas would never have judge shortages.

[Corvus MacCallum]

I see pretty much no point whatsoever in GP. Twice I've used the bazaar and both times it's been a pointless hassle. First time the mod handling it was trying to cheat me on gp and supplies, had to call in a senior mod of the bazaar to solve the transaction just to make it fair. Second time hugely overpriced service and a mod that didn't even grasp what I was looking for.

Rather just scrape stuff up from the ground and commit it to spoils than put up with that again.

[Saxon]

I've moused over the archaic formula needed to run the bazaar. It needs simplified or there doesn't need to be a mathematical formula for the bazaar at all, because I sure as hell knew when I saw it as a mod that I wasn't going to be the one to deal with it. I wouldn't expect anyone else to either. I agree that GP and EXP has less of an impact on our system then we'd like to think. If there's a way to give more freedom to writers while letting the players skulk around trolling for levels, I'm all for it.

[Godhand]

I fear change and therefore want the system to remain exactly the same as it is.

I also think the exp system is massively, MASSIVELY useful. It may make some problems but it solves so many glaring obvious ones that I think you'd have to be some sort of retard/have an outstanding amount of faith in your fellow man to think it'd be a good idea to get rid of it. It's so fucking brilliant. Let's say you got 666ShadowOfSephiroth666, and he makes his character world-rendingly powerful to the point where his very existence breaks the game because he can conceivably kill any monarch of any continent at any time and plunge the IC world into a chaos that the region writers can't or won't fix. The exp system puts a stop to that shit by making him a wuss, and by the time he reaches a level where he could cause problems for the site's continuity he's matured as a writer to the point where his character has gone from a 2-D wish fulfillment faggot into a well-rounded-

No, you know what? I'm fucking tired as hell and you guys know why the exp system is necessary. Don't play that game.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Response to Godhand's post on the previous page, which I will not quote

Wow, so having a complicated system of tiered leveling with intricate rules for every level and having to go through that level by completing threads to earn points based on a complex formula of your score, the length of your posts, and your current level as well as the level of your opponent, and how much you beat him by if it's a battle...

That's your solution that solves the problem of powergaming? That's the most elegant solution you have? That's the only way to stop an imbecile from creating a world-wrecking character?

Let's ignore the fact that if he wants to write that story, it doesn't hurt anyone because they're free to ignore it like everyone else ignores stories they consider non-canon. Let's ignore the fact that in battles attacks are only resolved by consent of the defender. Let's ignore that most of what he would be doing would be powergaming and disallowed even if he was a level gadzillion character through the system.

All the leveling system does is keep new people from creating overpowered characters. It doesn't stop old people from creating overpowered characters, GODHAND.

Your explanation is completely mucked up in a false perception of members. They don't show up as mewling helpless children who can do nothing but powergame. You've been around for an eternity and there are new members with more maturity than you. Levels should not be a "you must be this old to ride the ride" rule. Immaturity and powergaming can be solved by MUCH simpler means.

Rhetorical questions and criticism of Godhand's narrow worldview aside:

Let's remember that I'm not saying "let's do away with levels entirely". I think that might be a good idea, but it's too much change at once and I'm not advocating it. I'm saying let's give some options and flexibility to those of us who want to write and have more mature goals than "Smash world, kill everyone."

[Godhand]

Response to Godhand's post on the previous page, which I will not quote

Wow, so having a complicated system of tiered leveling with intricate rules for every level and having to go through that level by completing threads to earn points based on a complex formula of your score, the length of your posts, and your current level as well as the level of your opponent, and how much you beat him by if it's a battle...

That's your solution that solves the problem of powergaming? That's the most elegant solution you have? That's the only way to stop an imbecile from creating a world-wrecking character?

It may not be simple but simple is not always better.


Let's ignore the fact that if he wants to write that story, it doesn't hurt anyone because they're free to ignore it like everyone else ignores stories they consider non-canon.

Yeah that's just...That's fucking great. That's a good system. We should stick to it. Jesus, do you even read your own posts?


Let's ignore the fact that in battles attacks are only resolved by consent of the defender. Let's ignore that most of what he would be doing would be powergaming and disallowed even if he was a level gadzillion character through the system.

Oh shit, you don't say? Alright: let's see YOU come up with a simpler way of determining what's allowed and what isn't allowed specifically in a medium that allows for anything and everything. Should be easy for a genius like you, right?


All the leveling system does is keep new people from creating overpowered characters. It doesn't stop old people from creating overpowered characters, [i]GODHAND.

Ooooof course. Boy the truth will set you free, huh? I could give excuses and talk about how my power is extremely limited compared to people of my level like, say, Cyrus the Virus, or bring up the fact that I'm obviously not lusting for more power since I haven't updated my character for about three or four levels now but guess what: None of that shit matters because, while I may be an ornery and spot-protecting cunt, I've lost ICly to a guy five or six levels beneath me because I thought it was best for the story while simultaneously being fun to play as a game. Beyond that, I've worked hard for my level because I respected the game world enough to know I should hit a minimum of ten before writing the bombastic region-shaping stories that I've been wanting to for a while now.


Your explanation is completely mucked up in a false perception of members. They don't show up as mewling helpless children who can do nothing but powergame.

I'd try to bring up some examples but this is such glaring, intellectually dishonest bullshit that I'm not going to bother. You've seen some of these profiles. Shit, you've seen MOST of these profiles. I do think the leash on level zero characters should be slackened to avoid estranging new members, but I sure don't want this "Let's just write what we wanna right guize!" shithead utopia you seem to be advocating. You wanna write what you want to write? Open a word processor and have at it, Pedro. You want to write what you want to write and get judged on it? Join a writing workshop. You want to write while your character grows personally at the same rate you do as a writer? Welcome to althanas.


You've been around for an eternity and there are new members with more maturity than you.

Dohoho. You mean the ones who agree with YOU, right?


Levels should be a "you must be this old to ride the ride" rule.

Am I reading this right or completely misunderstanding? Are you saying we should be going by seniority here? It took me seven years to reach level ten, just like it would for almost anybody not named Shyam. Maybe you mean maturity. Sure, let's turn away the dipshits or shun them like lepers instead of trying to help them mature. It isn't like we're down to like fourteen active members already.


Immaturity and powergaming can be solved by MUCH simpler means.

Name one that's as effective.


Rhetorical questions and criticism of Godhand's narrow worldview aside:

Let's remember that I'm not saying "let's do away with levels entirely". I think that might be a good idea, but it's too much change at once and I'm not advocating it. I'm saying let's give some options and flexibility to those of us who want to write and have more mature goals than "Smash world, kill everyone."

What is it with you people sashaying in and thinking you're going to SAVE THE SITE with your REVOLUTIONARY IDEAS and reinvent the fucking wheel when, and let's get real for a second here, people way smarter than you have worked on this fucking site and either built the system, modified it, or thought it best to leave it well enough alone into it's current iteration? People who actually cared about this site? You and I both know that the truth is you're nothing but a seething fucking malcontent that doesn't give two shits about this site and if it died because of (or as you might think, despite) your bullshit, and by god it sure is looking like it might kick the bucket any day now, you'd make a joke, deflect blame and never think about it again. You hate this place. You think it's a joke. Why this sudden change of heart? Why this urge to SAVE it?

[Visla Eraclaire]

You realize that there are dozens of other roleplaying sites out there that deal with the problem of powergaming in different ways and that Althanas's exp system is actually rather unique and unusual as a solution. I could go through and quote all that and argue with you, but you're arguing against throwing away the exp system entirely, which isn't anyone's proposal.

You aren't going to be a person consulted on any new system, if there even is one. You're just an angry person who clings to the familiar without thinking. So why should I bother?

The only thing I'll note is that I missed a NOT in my original post. It's fixed now and in bold. Levels should not be a seniority system. I know this frightens you because your "hard work" to "earn" your position might be eclipsed by someone who wants to write an interesting story and not grind their way to the top. Sorry, I just don't see why a creative writing site should force people to be nothings until they've "earned it." Though, once again, your level isn't going anywhere.

For all your bluster about it, I'm not acting like I'm a genius, I'm just arguing for whatever I think is best at the moment. Want to know my motives? I feel like it. If I stop feeling like it, I'll stop posting. That's why I'm just a member, not a staff member. Simple as that. No need for a wall of text and quotes.

Shall I speculate about your motive? Let's indulge for a minute. You've grinded your way up the exp ladder and you're terrified by the idea that someone else might be allowed to write about someone powerful. You talk about Cyrus the Virus every time anyone brings up leveling because you're in some kind of power-mad arms race with that guy despite his total inactivity for a long time.

In short: You value your silly "accomplishments" over the enjoyment of others. Allowing other people to write doesn't diminish your options at all. It just keeps you from being oh so special and you can't abide that. So much so that you've gone off on a rage about it when no one is threatening it at all.

To you I may "seem to be advocating" a "shithead utopia", but I'm not. I'm suggesting new ways of gaining abilities, peer review of writing, and increased freedom in questing. That's all. You can go back to your cave safe in the knowledge that no one is stealing the pretty number under your name.

[Godhand]

Ahh yes, the elegant 'u mad' response.

Although seriously, reading Twylith's post about how she got docked points for having her character fly for thirty seconds pisses me off. That shit isn't cool. Back when I was level zero, our characters were allowed to be competent if not spectacular.

[Godhand]

Oh you fucking weasel, you edited your post to include like three paragraphs of new content. Fuck you.


Shall I speculate about your motive? Let's indulge for a minute. You've grinded your way up the exp ladder and you're terrified by the idea that someone else might be allowed to write about someone powerful. You talk about Cyrus the Virus every time anyone brings up leveling because you're in some kind of power-mad arms race with that guy despite his total inactivity for a long time.

Oh, I'm sorry. Was that unclear? Let me put it in big ol' red fucking letters so everyone knows where I stand:

I'M PROTECTING MY SPOT

I worked hard for it and I'll be damned if I see it-

Oh balls. I'm talking to Visla now on AIM and it's too much work to do both at once. I'll get back to you, thread.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I add things as I think about them. You can throw a few more expletives and insults in your post if you think it'll balance my additions out. Otherwise, I think the thread can go back to discussing actual proposals and not the imaginary ones that you're raging against.

You can sign on AIM and yell at me if you really want to continue.

EDIT: Which he has. Alright everyone, safe to come back into the thread. We combatants have returned to our corners.

[Godhand]

Motherfucker, YOU messaged ME!

[Saxon]

Shall I speculate about your motive? Let's indulge for a minute. You've grinded your way up the exp ladder and you're terrified by the idea that someone else might be allowed to write about someone powerful. You talk about Cyrus the Virus every time anyone brings up leveling because you're in some kind of power-mad arms race with that guy despite his total inactivity for a long time.

In short: You value your silly "accomplishments" over the enjoyment of others. Allowing other people to write doesn't diminish your options at all. It just keeps you from being oh so special and you can't abide that. So much so that you've gone off on a rage about it when no one is threatening it at all.

To you I may "seem to be advocating" a "shithead utopia", but I'm not. I'm suggesting new ways of gaining abilities, peer review of writing, and increased freedom in questing. That's all. You can go back to your cave safe in the knowledge that no one is stealing the pretty number under your name.


I'M PROTECTING MY SPOT!


EDIT: Which he has. Alright everyone, safe to come back into the thread. We combatants have returned to our corners.

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0912/trolls-trolling-song-i-was-bored-demotivational-poster-1261446403.jpg

[Christoph]

An easy solution would be to leave things as they are, but allow players to place notices in the first post of a closed thread, essentially saying, “Whatever funny business within this thread is approved by all participants”, and then let them police themselves beyond that. So if you happened to play some chef pyromancing maniac, but wanted to do a thread as a formidable Bladesinger or something without having to EXP grind up to level six or seven , you could so long as the other participants (if any) agreed.

The thread’s inclusion in the canon can be worked out by the staff, the writing workshop, or whatever. Perhaps the default for such a thread would for it to be declared non-canon, but let the players request otherwise. Assuming anyone even cares about canon.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Eh, if you're going to do that, which I think you pretty much already could, I feel like going to all the trouble of making character updates gets kind of silly. I dunno. I'm all tired out from fighting Godhand.

[Christoph]

Character updates at higher levels are already usually pointless. Hell, I was two levels behind during the Magus Cup, and only made the updates so Bloodrose and I could have an even battle. And besides, that way you get what you want anyway: those who want to "play the game" can, and those that want to just write can do so as well.