Actual Content Discussion: Salvar

[Rayse Valentino]

Those OOC threads are really ticking me off. If there's anything I care less about is the semantics of judging, exp, and the like. If you're not here for stories then I'm not interested in what you think.

Let me start off with this:
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/7990/salvartest.jpg

KEY:

Pink- The Vogruk-Stokes Trading Company. This is the valuable land they bought up in exchange for helping The League during the war. With their capital city of Siev, they've managed to become the most dominant faction in the new Salvar, however they insist that they are neutral and have no intentions on challenging anyone for their territory. They have the premier trading port in Salvar, are already establishing a new rail line to Alerar, and out-of-country investors are already setting up shop with various businesses and trading.

The dotted line represents land they technically own, but have not formerly made part of their territory yet.

Red- This is the militaristic state led by Baroness Janice Koveleva (the Baron I picked was random, however I wanted to make it apparent that the Vagarand who lead The League to victory benefited from this war). This is a state intent on fierce expansion to take over any land still unclaimed. The forest to their north poses a thread if any barbarians were to use it as a staging ground for pillaging.

Blue- This is the Kingdom of Bramm, let by Baron Derek Brann, who crowned himself king of this new nation. Facing a more imminent threat by the barbarians, Brann also has a large focus on military stability, and one of his important first tasks is quelling the insurgency from within his own borders, which takes us to...

Brown- Yes, this area lies inside of the blue area. This is The Independent State of Osolav, the city-state that claimed independence during the war. Their lord had himself entered the military and died in battle, and left no apparent heir. However, the lord served the baron, who believes this area is still rightfully his, hence the coming conflict.

Yellow- This is a nation that is still forming. Mainly comprised of small farming towns and merchants, they want to form a sort of Confederation for mutual protection against their aggressive neighbors.

Purple- Led by a Council rather than a single ruler, with each councilman sent as a representative to the largest city to represent their people, with a Chancellor who not only represents the largest city, but acts as de facto leader with approval by the other councilmen. This nation is in a tense situation with their Dark Green neighbors for territory, as they both wish to have more control over the southern portion of the Osolav River.

Dark Green- Led by Baron Sigmund Frivold, this nation is divided by the river and wants to expand to strategic locations for easier defense of the nation. This include territory owned by the their Purple neighbors, but currently their armies are too even to attempt any sort of campaign.

Light Green- This is a small nation led by Lord Algernon Royce, the former king's Minister of Foreign Affairs. He was able to unite a few towns and his only desire is a peaceful coexistence with his neighbors, including a prosperous relationship with Alerar.

Puke-Colored Lines On Top - This represents areas occupied sparsely or densely by barbarian camps.

Knife's Edge - This is more or less just rubble now.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Now, to explain all this. Most of it I just made up off the top of my head, and I used the stock map from the Salvar forum, but it just shows how simple it is to set this stuff up. Anyone can add or remove factions. Using a diverse range of governments, the interaction between the nations would be interesting, since each one would have its own perspective. How would a democratic country react to change? An autocratic one? How does the threat of barbarians, now no longer held at bay by a united Salvaran Kingdom, enter into the equation? How much economic power does The Trading Company have? Do they threaten to take over the entire country by buying them out, rather than conquering through militarist policies?

Not only that, but how are their armies set up? Do they have a system of ranks, and how do these systems differ?

These are the things I'm concerned about. Having players be involved in every level of these countries is entirely possible. You don't have to be at the bottom or at the top; the NPCs are highly versatile and it is encouraged to permanently change the landscape with your decisions. I also want armies and economies to make more sense. No more shapeless, nameless masses of death with no consequences for the outcome in terms of manpower. I want a crippling defeat to permanently affect the military operations of the ones that were defeated.

Anyway, this is my idea. I want to make the regions more alive, and I'm starting with this one. No more 'forever wars', just some good old-fashioned RP.

[Caden Law]

I approve of anything that boosts actual RP above OOC chatter.

Nice map, by the way, and I'd love to see some of this implimented.

[Saxon]

Most of it I just made up off the top of my head.


Bullshit. Give credit where its due after talking into my ear for the past two months about how you hate war and wanted to become the supreme crime lord of Salvar by nickel-and-diming the League all the way to the top.

*stands back instead and turns on the tape recorder*

"My name is Saxon and I endorse this program."

[Visla Eraclaire]

So, you care about what you are personally invested in? Here's a hint, that's true of everyone else and the things they're discussing.

If you want to get the region running, apply to be a writer. Or just start writing. You're asking questions like there's someone who's going to give you an answer, but you know better than that. You know how the site works.

For my own part, I think that your goals are far beyond your reach. They're the sort of things that might be implemented on a forum that specialized in this kind of complex country warfare RP. For the vast majority of players it's unnecessary and so you're unlikely to get board-wide resources focused on it.

If you want to make it your pet project, go for it, but don't act like your pet project is oh so high and mighty as compared to the things other people care to discuss and work on.

[Rayse Valentino]

The Story-Centric RP:

I think most can agree that the sort of game that goes on here is more akin to a traditional RPG than a collaborative story. It's not a conversation as much as it is a trip from point A to B for a particular character. This sort of project encourages story-centric plots rather than character-centric plots.

An example would be, most obviously, primarily playing NPCs. Taking a character in the world and making it your own for the sake of the story. Shifting between scenes and making the story appear from a grand perspective rather than just one specific character's. That way you can better understand motivations, setting, and how to proceed. As well as making these characters malleable to the point where others can continue where you left off, instead of putting strict limits on who can play who.

This includes submissions for nations, small factions, squadrons, and all sorts of stuff you can personalize and assign plot importance.

The Consequence-Conscious RP:

Basically, you'd think that people wouldn't engage in what we would consider openly suicidal behavior. Armies want to minimize casualties, and while I'm not suggesting anything concrete, but having an idea of numbers would help on a strategic level.

For example, let's put the populations of major cities anywhere from 100k to 500k people. Each of the factions could have armies that, realistically, have anywhere from 10k to 50k soldiers. The types of actions these nations would perform would be very conscious of their army size and recruiting pool. It also allows meaningful strategy that either exploits the enemy's numbers or conserves yours. From what I've seen of Gisela battles, they seemed to have some sort of Might and Magic army formations, with small numbers of specialized creatures that, for the most part, are expendable. Why not a return to basics? Infantry, Cavalry, Archers, and Wizards. I know I'm taking a bit from Exit Fate, but it makes sense for me in a fantasy setting. Shooting fireballs from a safe distance, farther than archers, wizards would have a formalized role in army battles.

Ranking doesn't have to be complicated either. Like, I imagine for The Kingdom of Bramm, it works like:
1 Captain for 100 Soldiers.
1 Colonel for 10 Captains.
1 Major for 5 Colonels.
1-3 Generals for any number of Majors.

It sets up a standard where you expect an army to at least have 5000 men in them, which seems reasonable from a logistics standpoint.

Like I said, the numbers aren't important, but to understand the consequences of the numbers and how they carry over into future storylines.

But I Just Want To Play My Own Character!:

I am in no way suggesting that all RP take this sort of story-centric approach, as there is any way for any reason for a player to support or detest a faction. However, it is much easier if the character has a personal investment in the welfare of whoever it is they're supporting. Mercenaries are still viable, and I expect mercenary forces as well, as well as other important roles for outside participants, but the reason I'm pushing this story-centric stuff is because it doesn't happen often on here. I think the cure to inactivity is encouraging everyone to become a GM, and most importantly emphasizing how simple and painless it is. To give people the tools they need so they don't have to sit there racking their brains trying to think up every minute detail.

Example Plots:

A soldier/captain marching on The Independent State of Osolav on orders to subdue it.

A mercenary/etc hired by The Independent State of Osolav to protect them.

Diplomatic incident between Dark Purple and Dark Green, possibly caused by either or neither faction.

Red's expansion and subsequent defense against a surprise attack by barbarians from the northern forests.

Yellow's struggle for unification and the threats and pressures posed by outside parties.

Pink's less-than-honest practices of wealth acquisition and underground plots.

The Bottom Line:

I can think up examples of everything until my eyes bleed, but it's useless without the participation. This would be very easy to get into, doesn't require much of an investment, and is at the very least worth a try.

[Visla Eraclaire]

It's fine that you're at least trying something and were it not for the crass attitude you take with me, I'd actually be interested in this, but I would like to point out that it is actually a significant character investment for those of us who care about character continuity.

This is all stuff that you made up, or borrowed from previous work, and so it doesn't have a hook with most people's character concepts. It actually took me a long time to get my character over to Salvar with enough reason to satisfy me.

In my experiences with you, you tend to expect people to be more willing to drop their own plans and rework characters or make new ones to suit your flights of fancy. Some may, and I hope they do, but just be aware that it isn't to be expected.

Also... you say it doesn't happen often, but didn't we just finish a giant round of story-centric business with the FQ that was a mixed bag in term of success?

What exactly are you asking people to do at this point, by the way, because I didn't gather that from your post. Do you want... volunteers? Threads? Ideas? Staff imprimatur?

[Taskmienster]

We'd need to more clearly define each little city that is held, and isn't held, and the population (at the very least) of each one. The expansion of each territory would rely on specific points of interest; travel routes such as roads through mountains or rivers, cities, monuments, and other points of interest. There would also be the question of what happens to all the other parts of Salvar that currently held by one of the territories?

In order to make that work, you'd also have to make each territory held be like an NPC clan for now, with the possibility of players taking over these NPC controlled clans.

If you wanted to make a number of soldiers compared to population, I'd suggest they be lower too. Not every force is going to have 10k armies, especially after a devastating civil war just sapped at the man-power of the country. Salvar is a rather isolated and unforgiving place as well, which means that the number of people in each city would not always equate to how many trained soldiers there would be. Conscripted soldiers for the defense of a city would bump the number to 1:10, but soldiers deploy-able would be more like 1:20... Also, the number of "large" cities (pop. 100k-500k) would be very few. Salvar isn't meant to have huge populations, other than Knife's Edge, which is in ruins according to this proposal.

In order for this to work, the map would have to be much more detailed, containing all the large cities to the small villages, as well as bring in the gaming atmosphere of gaining production related area's. The map would have to be changed to allow for each city, but also all the area's that have any sort of production value (food, ore, lumber, ect). Plus, after everything that changes, the map would have to be updated and changed to allow for the addition or loss of territory area.

[Visla Eraclaire]

If you end up drawing this map, you might want to be careful not to forget the people who earned things in the Civil War.

Ha ha ha...

[Saxon]

Love them unkept promises.

[Taskmienster]

http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=19416

Funny, neither of you had anything posted in here about what you thought was promised to you from the FQ. If you're talking about the HoW Mission Board, and the "win when a certain number of points are reached" thing... which didn't finish either. That being so, stop complaining about "unkempt promises" that aren't even remotely posted on the site.

Now, instead of taking another thread off topic, let's keep this on the proposal and what Rayse is saying (oh, and he IS on the list of accomplishing something in the Salvar FQ... funny).

[Visla Eraclaire]

As I recall, the side with the most points at the end won, even if the point total wasn't reached. The only points actually counted in the thread are mine. I think Saxon stopped updating them before Rayse finished...

But that might have just been an informal understanding I had with the person who actually put all this stuff together. You know, the stuff you and Rayse are lording over like it's your project.

It was a joke anyway. I don't care if you want to act haughty and cite minor technicalities from something you were scarcely involved with. I was merely making a suggestion that if Rayse wants participants he should consider not alienating people who were involved in the Salvar events up to this point.

By all means, continue discussing the plan. It looks quite interesting, as I said. If you don't want public comment and suggestion, don't make a public thread. Dissent doesn't always disappear with the click of an admin panel button ;)

Now, I'd actually like the hear from Rayse what he thinks about integrating the Salvar events into his idea and whether pre-existing fiefdoms would be a part of his plan.

[Saxon]

Funny, neither of you had anything posted in here about what you thought was promised to you from the FQ.

Oh, considering I wrote the damn thing, I still know a thing or two about who should've gotten what. Visla was owed a Fiefdom since the League won the war (AND A NEW MEMBER TITLE), and maybe the people of Rayse's thread would get similar rewards provided their thread scores high enough when Amaril finishes judging it. I never updated the points after that because the only two parties who finished threads in my side of the FQ were Rayse/Blood/Caden and Visla. No one else, which to their credit is their own damn fault because I practically showered everyone here with rewards when I started the damn chapter, and only a handful of people chose to take advantage of it.

There also would probably be tickets alotted to people to get legendary items even if they never finished their quests, but its a crapshoot. Good luck dealing with that headache. So instead of alluding to what was owed to him, I believe I spelled out everything Visla had coming to him from the rewards when I judged his threads. Whether or not you make good on those promises is completely up to you.

But hey, if you'd like to still market yourself as honorable by moonlighting with the stuff I wrote, you might want to join the club and run with some of the other ideas I proposed as well.

Have fun with it.

[Rayse Valentino]

We'd need to more clearly define each little city that is held, and isn't held, and the population (at the very least) of each one. The expansion of each territory would rely on specific points of interest; travel routes such as roads through mountains or rivers, cities, monuments, and other points of interest. There would also be the question of what happens to all the other parts of Salvar that currently held by one of the territories?

I only used this map because it's the only thing we have. It's not a very good.. indicator... of points of interest, even if you were to label them. If this went through I was actually going to ask Flames to create one of those civilization-esque maps based on this one. It would be easy to add or remove from something like that, in terms of geography.

I don't understand your last question. What happens to all the parts of Salvar held by these territories? That's what we find out, no? In terms of how they come under these territories, well it isn't a big switch for them in terms of government, since they mostly come from a feudal system. For a lot of them, like those who lived under a Baron, nothing has really changed.


In order to make that work, you'd also have to make each territory held be like an NPC clan for now, with the possibility of players taking over these NPC controlled clans.

No problem with that. People who step up to lead their own nation would be great.


If you wanted to make a number of soldiers compared to population, I'd suggest they be lower too. Not every force is going to have 10k armies, especially after a devastating civil war just sapped at the man-power of the country. Salvar is a rather isolated and unforgiving place as well, which means that the number of people in each city would not always equate to how many trained soldiers there would be. Conscripted soldiers for the defense of a city would bump the number to 1:10, but soldiers deploy-able would be more like 1:20... Also, the number of "large" cities (pop. 100k-500k) would be very few. Salvar isn't meant to have huge populations, other than Knife's Edge, which is in ruins according to this proposal.

Yeah, the 1:10 ratio was just an example, as was the number of people who lived in 'major cities'. I still think entire armies would MAYBE comprise like 10-40k troops for major territories, if you consider them to have like 3 cities and 10 towns. I think that, during an invasion, small villages would have no strategic value and would be avoided, or even negative strategic value if the time to take them grounds your army for too long, and other villages could evacuate to walled cities during a crisis.


In order for this to work, the map would have to be much more detailed, containing all the large cities to the small villages, as well as bring in the gaming atmosphere of gaining production related area's. The map would have to be changed to allow for each city, but also all the area's that have any sort of production value (food, ore, lumber, ect). Plus, after everything that changes, the map would have to be updated and changed to allow for the addition or loss of territory area.

I liked Flames' map because those big squares he had could easily be cities, and halving their size would make for decent towns. You could color-code them to be part of territories (gray towns belong to no faction, black towns to independent city-states), and even make borders. Updating the map is a simple matter of providing a blank map (non-color-coded) as well as the current one or a more advanced option would be to make the second, color-coded layer in photoshop/paintshop or something and then it would be easy to update. I don't know, these semantic details are fairly trivial and even in worse case scenario I don't mind redoing. It literally took me like a minute to augment this map with the factions, so I know for a fact that it's not a problem.

I think that minimal information for towns is enough. Farming town, production city, etc. You don't have to list out every natural resource unless it's a particularly valuable one that has strategic value. Like a town in/near a forest having a logging industry doesn't really need mentioning, but players can make it important if they want to. I agree that having a resource in-progress would be cool too, like if someone is still building a mine. It's up in the air whether the mine could have a hidden rare resource, or someone decides to sabotage, or some mystical artifact or horde of monsters. It would just be like a normal quest for people in that case.

Oh, and I think there would be a lot of really small villages scattered about, and I don't think they need mentioning on the map. If you keep only the towns and cities up above a certain size, that's enough. Players can assume the locations of negligible-size villages, like the ones frequented by many adventurers, and it wouldn't conflict with the map. Defining out every single location WOULD be strict, but defining out specific towns/cities and important locations would be helpful.

I don't think it would be hard to fill out the map purely just by making stuff up on the spot. I would prefer if people submitted their own ideas, factions, and whatnot, to really give it some creativity, helped shape out the nations themselves.

Saxon: Fiefdoms can very easily be inside the territories or near whatever Baron you helped, or any Baron if you want. The size of them would be very small, smaller than the brown plot, but they could become bigger through RP events or whatnot. You could live under the Baron or be independent (also I'm just using the Barons as an example), it really doesn't matter. In these dangerous times, players can choose to live under the Barons to protect their small towns or try to be independent and defend it on their own. The only problem with all this... is any whining that might come from territorial conflict that loses them that fiefdom. If that sort of thing comes to pass, either suck it up or forget the promise. After all, when we had clan wars, complaining about losing your HQ had no purpose. It would essentially be the same thing here.

[Saxon]

Saxon: Fiefdoms can very easily be inside the territories or near whatever Baron you helped, or any Baron if you want. The size of them would be very small, smaller than the brown plot, but they could become bigger through RP events or whatnot. You could live under the Baron or be independent (also I'm just using the Barons as an example), it really doesn't matter. In these dangerous times, players can choose to live under the Barons to protect their small towns or try to be independent and defend it on their own. The only problem with all this... is any whining that might come from territorial conflict that loses them that fiefdom. If that sort of thing comes to pass, either suck it up or forget the promise. After all, when we had clan wars, complaining about losing your HQ had no purpose. It would essentially be the same thing here.

Dash with my ideas, Simba! DASH AND MAKE A RUN FOR THE BORDER! You have the makings of upper management if you keep this up!

As an aside, I don't really give a shit what barons do what in your new and improved system of Salvarian Risk. I'll play with the barons in whatever thread I make as I choose and how I want them. Yay freedom of literature I created?

[Taskmienster]

Dash with my ideas, Simba! DASH AND MAKE A RUN FOR THE BORDER! You have the makings of upper management if you keep this up!

As an aside, I don't really give a shit what barons do what in your new and improved system of Salvarian Risk. I'll play with the barons in whatever thread I make as I choose and how I want them. Yay freedom of literature I created?

You are no longer the "creator" of said anything. You're just another person who left the staff and joined the writers... which means that those of us on staff, as well as the players of the site, are able to use what's left how they want. Hell, even if you were on staff players would be allowed to change things and do things, and I'm the ADMIN of the regions, which means that I'd change things and use them how I think most advantageous for the site and the players.

On that note, if you have NOTHING of assistance to add, please, stop spamming these threads.

Also, if you want to join in and write threads about the Barons, as nothing more than a means to convey your issues with staff and the site, please remember that anything you do that is counter-productive will be docked in points and most likely ignored. If you want to write your spam through IC means, just so you can try and get back at those that are ready to take your ideas and actually do something with them, it'll be just like spamming in an OOC thread.

/ignoring my admin position for a second

EDIT: It was wrong of me to say "creator" when I mean "owner". Though not that it matters.

[Saxon]

Also, if you want to join in and write threads about the Barons, as nothing more than a means to convey your issues with staff and the site, please remember that anything you do that is counter-productive will be docked in points and most likely ignored. If you want to write your spam through IC means, just so you can try and get back at those that are ready to take your ideas and actually do something with them, it'll be just like spamming in an OOC thread.

Save your breath. I think we both know that there are only a handful of people on this site that would waste their time trying to get even with someone by crossing the border between IC and OOC by conjuring up a story or something inflammatory while in character (It was true, he is gay) and you're mincing words over a game of risk with him right now.

I'm not one of them, and I'm beginning to think you take this "I left the staff and am using the boards as a means of revenge" thing a bit too far if we're trying to carry this over into the IC realm. Even if it means you're going to boast about using your position as an administrator and judge to knock me for it. Big shoes, Mr. Head-of-Regions.

By the way, I like the whole 'most likely ignore' part of that statement. It took being a region writer to influence some kind of change, and its a bit of a dark irony that an administrator is now telling another member that even if they had attempted to write any canon for Althanas, regardless of what it was, it'd be ignored. Sends a bright and sterlling message that you can hang above the mission and purpose of the Featured Quest. Good job!


You are no longer the "creator" of said anything.

Then I'm certainly glad I left when I did, and spent more of my time cleaning up the messes of others then sacrificing time and energy to spin a yarn for a region I have no rights over. I'm sure if I had gone through with much of what I intended and shared with you, I'd be a great deal more angry with that statement. So, instead, we'll call it wash.



/ignoring my admin position for a second


Yeah, right. A second? You dance between being self-indulgent in settling arguments with the use of your power and act as a deligent worker bee a step above moderator constantly. I believe there is a rule buried in some part of the forums you don't care about about keeping personal involvement and using your authority to moderate within a thread seperate in order to preserve integrity for the staff, which is something you have violated countless times and have been warned about before. The only difference now is there really isn't anybody left to stop you from doing it besides another Big Daddy. So congrats, use your very best judgment to deal with this one, I'm sure its never failed or got you reprimanded before.



On that note, if you have NOTHING of assistance to add, please, stop spamming these threads.


Deal.