Resume

[Visla Eraclaire]

If you want to discuss something, I’d suggest that you actually discuss it, not get off topic to the point where it’s just complaining about site policy and the judges.

The fact that something is "off topic" or has "gotten out of hand" is one of the oldest and lamest excuses for closing a thread with which the moderator personally disagrees.


New topic: Rules and policies which are nonsensical and which you feel undermine the stated goals of Althanas. Most of them are simply around because nobody bothers to change rules. Things simply accumulate and actual practice drifts away from the crusty buildup of old dicta. Feel free to reframe your previous arguments (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?p=160912#post160912) to fit within this legitimate area of discussion.

There's not a damned thing off topic about that. If that can't be discussed, you're best off not lying to yourself with the Your Word description.

[Duffy]

If you wish to change Althanas or remove/revamp what you view to be nonsenical or outdated rules Visla, might I suggest you provide some examples, and reasons, and methods of dealing with them to whatever end you're pushing for?

Or, you could apply for a position and get behind the scenes and mechanics of Althanas as a staff mem...oh, wait.

[Visla Eraclaire]

If you wish to change Althanas or remove/revamp what you view to be nonsenical or outdated rules Visla, might I suggest you provide some examples, and reasons, and methods of dealing with them to whatever end you're pushing for?

Or, you could apply for a position and get behind the scenes and mechanics of Althanas as a staff mem...oh, wait.

Oh my, Duffy. I saw what you did there! Aren't you a clever little boy. Being a staff member was not very helpful for bringing about change. All it did was shoulder me with the burden of enforcing that which I disagreed with and tie my hands in terms of my public protest and commentary. In essence, I made the same sorts of protests in private that I now make in public. Being on staff didn't keep the same sorts of officious twits from sweeping dissent and attempts at change under the rug. At least this way, the board membership can see that sad process unfold.

I'm not registering any complaints. I'm just opening up a new topic for others to do so since the last one was closed on flimsy pretenses and it seemed there was more to be discussed.

I imagine many of the newer members there would fear retribution for doing so, and so I did it on their behalf as I am not afflicted with such trepidation. I know that what I do is fully justified.

[Duffy]

I'm all for change, and discussion, Visla. However, the tone of the other thread (brought about not by you) was detrimental to the discussion. Wherever or not you believe the reason to be personal is entirely your subjective opinion, the fact remains, and the staff made a motion to close the thread.

Anyone is free to bring up anything, any-time, anywhere, any-place. I implore people to do so, but people need to remind themselves that there is a correct way, a civil way to do so, and then there is the other way, which results in 'flaming' and people over personalising the conversation.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I have no desire to discuss the earlier thread. Whatever issues may or may not have existed in it are gone. That's why there's a new thread. If you don't have a complaint about a rule or a response to someone else's posted complaint, you can move along.

In any attempt to redirect your off-topic comments toward the aim of this thread:

The line between discussion and flaming is a highly subjective one, more often than not employed by a biased enforcer. I think the board needs an OOC mod/admin again that actually keeps him or herself out of the politics and makes reasoned decisions about such things.

Cory used to do this as a mod. Seril used to serve the function as well but he's been absent for some time. Task is incapable of serving this function. Max likely tires of having to clean up tantrums. You need a new person, someone that people can trust not to squelch unpopular speech and to uphold a set of rules that is actually comprehensible and not simply wielded as a justification for censorship.

[Duffy]

I'll play wit tennis and passive-aggressive speed posting another time then.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I would say that Duffy's off topic posting in this thread was very unbecoming of a staff member, but in fact all he's done is provide me with an excellent illustration of my point that there is a problem with ooc moderation.

Two solutions.

1) Don't close threads except in the most egregious instances. A thread full of pornography, a thread which makes genuine death threads, a thread that has as its stated purpose mere insults unrelated to board reform (that means a thread called, for instance, "Duffy Sucks Shit" where that is the only discussion, not one that includes a few posts insulting him or one which uses such a thing as an illustration, like this thread)

2) Get someone whose objectivity is beyond reproach who can be even handed and rebuke members and staff alike, set ground rules which do not prevent discourse, and enforce them fairly.


Frankly, I'm all in favor of #1, as a rabid free speech proponent. I think #2 is more likely to be well-received by the administration.


Finally, let me clarify that this matter is not the sole focus of the thread, but merely one example I have come up with to keep it from being derailed entirely by the other poster.

[Duffy]

What is your policy for deleting threads/posts?

Althanas moderators never delete or modify threads or posts based on content. As we do have underaged members, links to pornographic material may be removed, but it is our strict policy to allow members to freely share their beliefs, ideas, and opinions without any sort of moderator intervention. Your posted content will never be removed simply because a staff member disagrees with you.


What is your policy on profanity?

If you find any material on Althanas offensive, we remind you to take advantage of the built-in profanity filter and also to exercise your right to ignore a thread.


What is your policy on flaming?

Excessive flaming or harassment may result in moderator intervention and a reminder to keep discourse civil. Continued flaming or harassment will result in more severe action, up to and including temporary and permanent banning from the forum.

We remind our users that some discussions in our out-of-character areas may include heated debate and discussion. If this is not something you are comfortable with, we advise you to avoid posting in such threads. If you do select to engage in these conversations, we remind you that while it is perfectly acceptable to refute another's point with vigor, personal attacks will not be tolerated.

Italicisation and bolding in the above text from the FAQ my own. Whilst you have exercised your right to post in the Your Word forum to voice complaint or opinion on the methodology of Althanas, or the conduct of the staff, you cannot expect for discussion to take place without referral to the initial incident, or any of the handful of threads where the exact same thing has occured. I'd love to examine why, but given the nature of the comments in the aforementioned thread, we'd be delving into the realm of rule breaking from the very individual who is attempting to motion for chance to the OOC moderation policy.

Whilst I claim every responsibility for the non-chalant, humour driven comments from myself above; given the circumstances, and our policy of not removing or editting other's posts for content, I will not do so here. I do not believe in censorship, but I do believe in restraint, something we can all exercise and something that would work as a better 'rule' than anything proposed above.

On the other hand...

An internet community needs the right balance of protecting itself from "egregious" individuals and circumstances, and the freedom and enjoyment of it's community members. On that note, the 1st suggestion is hypocritical and as ever is a veiled display of conceit. The rules as they stand and the policy as they stand are more than adequate and more than open and reflexive enough for all. People would be banned and removed from communities for alot less than you, I, or any other member of Althanas has said.

The second, on the other hand, is something that could be examined. As ever, it'd require considerable vestment in interest.

The question there however, is would you be willing to cut out your own tongue to spite your face, as such a move for closer moderator and intervention from a non-political moderator would ultimately result in a considerably less activity from certain individuals.

[Tshael]

I'm going to say that I agree with Task in his decision to close the last thread. Not, however, because the conversation had moved on to a related topic, borne of the first question, but because there was some blatant trolling going on by a certain member that was out of hand. You are absolutely correct. There is a huge difference between flat out trolling and unpopular dissent, and I think that this new thread is a good way to get away from the trolling and start a constructive discussion. So, thanks Visla, for bringing this back up in a logical, calm manner.

Now, I will agree with you that as Althanas has aged and changed, there are things still sitting around that have not. One such thing is the word/post count rule for a thread to be deemed "complete" and get the complete judgment. We used to have a montly Vignette contest, and does this rule keep people who found that enjoyable from sharing with us impromptu character vignettes because it would keep them from gaining a reasonable amount of experience? I do think so, so we should discuss ideas for change.

Also, I do get irritated to see all this talk bashing our moderator force. Yes, they are human and fallible, but that doesn't give anyone the right to drag them through the mud. Instead of pointing fingers and bitching that everything is corrupt, we should make changes ourselves. The moderator force we have right now is very different than ones we have had in the past. Instead of condemning them for all the wrongdoings that were and weren't done by them in the past, why not focus on working with them? The mods do listen, whether we players believe it or not, and they are doing what they do because they love the site, not because they are trying to lord power over faceless names on the internet.

I think that if the players were to rally together and intelligently, logically discuss what changes could be wrought to the rubric to help balance it, or perhaps instead of focusing on the rubric, the experience formulas. It is hard to keep the balance of Althanas between a fun game with goals, and writing workshops where the story reigns as king. I've been here for eight years, and it's never been perfect, but there has always been a willingness to improve from all facets of perspective.

Anywho. I'm also eager to hear other suggestions that you might have Vis.

[Visla Eraclaire]

@ Duffy:

I'm not trying to say "you cannot talk about the other thread at all." I am attempting to make it clear that a protestation of that thread's closure is NOT the topic of this thread. This thread is merely a continuation of the discourse started in that thread, freed from whatever problems (imagined or otherwise) caused its closure.

Attempts by you to discuss the previous thread, in my view, drive the discussion in a direction which is more likely to cause this thread to be closed. Frankly, neither thread ought to be closed, but I'm a pragmatist and am attempting to drive the discussion away from topics which will bring about closure, whether or not it is unjustified. I am attempting to avoid a heckler's veto on your part.

As for your quotes, it's all well and good to cite rules. My whole point involves the interpretation and application of those rules by individuals who have little respect for their duties. It's very much akin to saying that we're safe from theft because we have a rule against it, whilst our police force is staffed from time to time with kleptomaniacs.

The fact that you view a neutral observer as a restraint on my ability to speak suggests that you do not believe those rules either, or that you do not believe they should or would be followed by such an observer. Everything I have said here is within the realm of heated debate, vigorous refutation, and attacks on principles rather than people.

@ Tshael

I'm glad at least someone appreciates the purpose of this topic and my intentions in making it.


The problem with extensive player initiated action is that even when those in "power" initiate a change or put together a package of reforms, it more often than not fails. I by no means intend for this to be my final word on the matter, that's just the first thing that came to mind. Criticism of the status quo is the simplest thing we can do and the most likely to garner attention. A fully fledged proposal of new mechanisms and changes would be so unlikely to be adopted that it's not really worth making. Not to say that it isn't ever worth making, we just need to come to a consensus with the administration that something is wrong before we can go about putting the time into a solution. More often than not when I start to work out proposed solutions, people cut me off that there isn't even a problem in the first place.

That response is a bit rushed. I've been called to go to lunch. Later

[Tshael]

I do see what you're saying. You're right, but I think that the call to change has been heard. I know that Duffy has made a few threads that were intended to give voice to the masses so to speak. So it's obvious that there is a willingness from at least one person on staff to work with suggestions. I would like perhaps to see more mods step forward to talk with the people.

I know that something like giving the moderator forums public view would never happen, but what if the mods did have to put themselves before the people, to give an update and hear questions and feedback of things they've been working on? Important political members have to do this, in periodic press conferences. Do you think it might help keep individuals accountable and focused on the duties they've chosen to apply for?

[Duffy]

I'd also like to point out that I very much see your point, Visla, if anything, I'm at a basic level for the very opposite of what you're suggesting. I'd motion for considerably stricter policy and moderation, one that ultimately would have resulted in warning points for more than one person in the last thread, and likely, permanent bans given the frequency of that type of offence.

However, I do not want this site to become a police state - in this particular instance, I agree with the thread closing. You might not, and you are more than permitted to have grievances with the decision, and start this thread here - I relish open discussion and participation, as Tshael says, I'm all for getting Your Word. If anything, discussion has been had recently on implementing such a system, but the freedom and current system of Althanas is considerably more effective as it stands.

[Tshael]

What about the current system do you find effective, Duffy? I'm asking to honestly help get a discussion started here. You can't say everything's fine without saying what it is that you think is fine. As a moderator, I'd like to know what you think the system has right so that players like Visla can also put in their opinion and we can try and find a balance, if not the ideal situation.

[Atzar]

Since this thread is showing early signs of being productive, I'm going to go ahead and repost my viewpoint regarding the post limit:


As for the original topic... I was actually on the wrong end of the rule once - my first quest on this site was nine posts long and didn't get a real judgment because of it. I was actually pretty irritated at the time. I didn't get my requested spoils and I only got a fraction of the EXP/GP I would have had I just split one of my posts in half. I definitely didn't feel like the effort I put into the thread was reflected in the rewards.

I'd be in favor of seeing the rule removed - I really think length has no bearing on the quality of a thread. A thread should only be refused a judgment it actually can't be judged for some reason, be it incompletion or whatever else. If a thread is short to the point that it hurts the story, then just score it low - such a flaw would likely have a negative effect on nearly every category on the rubric. Refusing judgment just strikes me as an over-the-top penalty based on a rule that exists, to me, more for the sake of having a rule than out of any real need for it.

I also mentioned in other post how length plays a factor in the EXP spoils from a thread, and how that shouldn't change if the length limit is actually removed.

[Amaril Torrun]

Perhaps a one warning per thread type of idea could be put into place? I've seen that work before, whether it was those in the thread ignoring that warning and having the thread closed as a result, or those in the thread taking note of the warning and turning the tide of the conversation to a more productive light. It'd keep the pros of managing flaming on the site along with giving a thread's participants full understanding of why a thread may need to be closed.

Like Visla, I'm rushed for time, so this will have to do for now. Take this rambling brainstorm for what it is and feel free to build upon it and adapt it to fit where you guys are headed. Also, sorry for any typos or unnecessary words.

EDIT: Also, I agree with Atzar.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I'd also like to point out that I very much see your point, Visla, if anything, I'm at a basic level for the very opposite of what you're suggesting. I'd motion for considerably stricter policy and moderation, one that ultimately would have resulted in warning points for more than one person in the last thread, and likely, permanent bans given the frequency of that type of offence.


I want to come out strongly against this. This is a creative writing forum. You start squelching expression even in the OOC areas and you have a very dangerous chilling effect. What would be gained by removing people from the site? Unless they're keeping people from RPing or causing such a sitewide disturbance as to be disrupting activity you'd have to be out of your mind to warn and ban people for offending you.

Look, I'm the first person to point out to people who talk about their "free speech rights" on a forum that they don't have any. Site moderators can be as repressive as they want. The point is that there's no reason to do so. If you want people talking, if you want activity, if you want progress and improvement, you have to tolerate speech which is occasionally offensive.

If there are harsh consequences for crossing what is and always will be a hazy line, people will not speak up. They'll err on the side of caution and valuable things will not be said. That is not what you want.

Another thing: Thread closing is a poor enforcement method. It gives a heckler's veto. If Duffy turned this thread into a protest of the previous thread closing, it would be shut down for violating the rules. That's wrong. That's the problem with closing things down because people are offended as well. It gives those who find speech distasteful the ability to curtail that speech by being present and being offended.

RE: The thread length rule. I'd be all for removing it. 10 posts is an arbitrary number and it really doesn't mean anything. Perhaps give some number as a guideline. Frankly, I think that's the standard practice anyway. I haven't seen a thread refused judgment. I judged Duffy's poetry thread even though it was much shorter than standard posted threads (though it was 10 posts, they were very brief).

[Requiem of Insanity]

Visla versus duffy!

Round two


ready?


fight!!!

[Visla Eraclaire]

Visla versus duffy!

Round two


ready?


fight!!!

FLAWLESS VICTORY!

In seriousness, I do not want this to turn into me vs duffy. It's a contest of ideas, not people. This is a debate of free expression (which I happen to support) vs censorship (which Duffy happens to support). You have to draw a line somewhere, but it should be as small as possible and the consequences as unobtrusive as possible. They should be the minimum necessary to keep the board running and moving forward. Punitive action will only stifle discourse.



So, let me go back briefly to my comments about why I don't want to jump straight to solutions before I get a consensus on the existence of problems. It certainly gets me a lot of grief about how I'm very negative. The fact of the matter is, getting anything done here is difficult. I don't want to spend an afternoon writing up some proposal only to post it and have the discussion completely ignore it because nobody even agrees that there is a problem.

[Duffy]

This is a debate of free expression (which I happen to support) vs censorship (which Duffy happens to support). You have to draw a line somewhere, but it should be as small as possible and the consequences as unobtrusive as possible. They should be the minimum necessary to keep the board running and moving forward. Punitive action will only stifle discourse.

Ermm.


I do not believe in censorship, but I do believe in restraint, something we can all exercise and something that would work as a better 'rule' than anything proposed above.

EDIT: I'll get back to you Manda.

[Godhand]

I do not believe in censorship, but I do believe in restraint.

You say tomato and I say to-mah-toh!

You say potato and I say po-tah-toh!

Tomato, to-mah-toh, potato, po-tah-toh!

Let's call the whole thing off!

[Duffy]

You say tomato and I say to-mah-toh!

You say potato and I say po-tah-toh!

Tomato, to-mah-toh, potato, po-tah-toh!

Let's call the whole thing off!

I really do love you, really really really :D:D:D

[Slavegirl]

Some of our rules and policies are like some of the amendments in Alabama's constitution - so old and outdated nobody even knows or cares they exist, but we refuse to change them because we are too lazy to write up new rules, and too afraid to break tradition.

Honestly, while I do think that things get offensive and stupidly boneheaded around here (on everyone's part, even mine god forbid), I don't think that's a reason to close a thread or ban someone. If you don't like what's being said, either react and argue your own point, or don't read the thread. I do it all the time. It's why you quite often don't see me speak up in a lot of OOC threads because I don't feel like getting embroiled in the childish name calling or the heated debate. But why are we trying to stop it from happening? Yeah, it gets off topic - so what? So do a lot of discussions that end up with productive or humorous outcomes. I think there are very few times when it really is necessary to get rid of a thread or a person on a forum. If someone is REALLY offensive, the other members will black ball them. I don't really pay much attention to Visla because he gets on my nerves (no offense, it's just a fact) - but that's my choice, and I don't have to take any action against Visla because of it. Godhand can be just as offensive and rude, but we just think it's funny and he rarely gets in any sort of "trouble" for it. I'm not saying to remove all stops, but I do think we need to rethink why they're there.

As far as post count in a thread... I agree there's no real reason to have an arbitrary number. If the thread is too short to tell a complete story, then there will be a negative affect on the judging such as a poor pacing score or whatnot.

That's my two cents, which with a dollar or two might buy you a small cup of coffee.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Someone says that the new character being registered that Godhand posted a complaint in is me.

It is not. My accounts are Visla Eraclaire, Acolyte Bosche and Wilhelm Bosche. I wouldn't go through such silly nonsense just to complain about the RoG.

Just thought I would nip this rumor in the bud immediately.

I think I might agree with him but his post is WAY too long, so I did not read.

[Ataraxis]

Before anyone asks, I have no connection with the current profile issue in the RoG, but it does tread on something that has been concerning me for a long time, that is to say, the way starter characters are generally being balanced in the RoG. I would like this topic I now introduce to stay focused on starter characters, too, and not leveled characters: I fear opening these two cans of worms at once would destroy a useful thread such as this. If anyone knows how to elegantly deal with those two topics work together, though, don't let my fears stand in your way.

First, I would like to quote Shadai: while I do not believe I know him or her, I do believe Shadai encapsulated all of my qualms with the current system as elegantly and respectfully as I believe anything ever could be voiced on Althanas, so kudos for that. If you are not in the mood to read all of it, read from the asterisk. The content before helps in understanding the context, but the rest applies to the site in general, and should be familiar to everyone.


Let's lump the skills together so its easier for you to approve.

Hmmm.... Pick Pockets and slight of hand are the same thing really (I already took the liberty of combining these two). So is hide and move silently... let's call it Stealth. Lockpicking is really its own ability and so is Sneak Attack. So for Skills it looks like this so far:

Pick Pockets: Above Average
Stealth: Above Average
Lockpicking: Above Average
Sneak Attack: Below Average

Daggers: Below Average

Drawback: Wiseass (which, considering how I intend to play the character is a bigger drawback then I think you realize at this moment)

Magic: Nothing but a casting circle (which at the moment does nothing) and use of the bracer. The bracer itself is NOT magical, it is merely a focus to extend his will. Similarly to a wand used by a wizard to focus fire or become more accurate with his magic missiles. But being a beginning wizard his "use" of the bracer is severely limited. I intend to be fair in its use, it can block any attack but should I overuse or misuse the mod in charge of the thread can lower my point total as you have agreed (thank you).


*

Compare that to any character. Where is the overpower? I can do neat thieving abilities but when it comes to straight combat I'm pretty much a lightweight. Thus the shield to stop insta-gib attacks so my character can get a chance to escape or at the very least live to see another day.

I guess it comes down to what we are comparing the skills to. And this applies to all new characters. What is average? Who are we comparing it to? What is the baseline? A character like Godhand? Or a level 0 peasant with a dull iron pitchfork and pension for picking his nose? A similar class, race and spec?

For that matter, is there a sliding scale? And what are those levels? It starts and below average, the rises up through average, above average, excellent, superior, best in class, godlike, godhand? And again, the issue of who or what we are comparing this to becomes an issue.

Furthermore, what constitutes a skill? Would speaking a language other then common become a skill expenditure? How about a hobby? Tradeskill? Where does the madness stop?

The creation guidlines are very clear that this site is not to "stifle creativity" but I submit by putting comparative levels and limits that is exactly what is being done. I get that the idea is to keep them all around the same combat level. That is what I intended to do, as well as the site guildlines can offer. I'm very weak at combat as Godhand was gracious enough to see and point out. Pickpocket and Lockpicking are for the most part not going to help me when Godhand is threatening me with great bodily harm. The shield will probably block only one attack before melting off my wrist and at that point I have to hope that I'm faster then the other guy he may or may not be after.

Lets play the comparative game. On one side, we have Vestagar, as I have envisioned him. On the other, we have Bob, the nosepicking level 0 peasant with an iron pitchfork. Since Bob is not a thief, I think its safe to assume that Vestagar should be spades in thieving skills such as lockpicking, picking pockets and stealth. However, Bob is pretty unassuming, so we can say that he is better at sneak attacks cause you never know when he's gonna take his finger out of his nose and slam that pitchfork into the side of your head; Besides, murder isn't Vestagar's thing. Bob clearly is going to be above average with his iron pitchfork, Vestagar is lucky if he knows what end to point at the bad guy. Bob probably hunts when he's not hunting for boogers, so he's probably got the edge in daggers too. So this isn't a bad comparison if you don't take into account that you are comparing an apple to an orange. Vestagar is clearly too powerful to be on Bob's level. He has all those thieving skills!

On the other side of the coin, we have Drac the Vampire Thief. There is nothing overpowered about vampires is there? Enhanced speed, immortal, impulsive need to use sunblock... Vestagar would be lucky to last longer then 3 seconds in Drac's world.

I'm not trying to break the system. I'm not trying to force in something that is overpowered. I'm pointing out the flaw that exists in the character creation system. You can't go by detailed rules and claim creative freedom. One simply does not exist when the other is present. But when someone comes around and stretches the limits of that creative freedom, you cannot point to non-existant rules and rhetoric and expect him not to be disappointed.

If I have no choice I will acquiescence. However, I would like to make my point and have it understood. I'm not overpowered in a combat sense. My understanding was that was what the RoG was for, to make sure everyone stayed on the same level for combat purposes; Combat that makes up 70% of this site. I simply chose to lower my effective combat rating to boost my RP skills. It was a tradeoff in my mind that made perfect, fair sense.

The only thing I'd like to add is that battle threads in themselves are far less numerous than story quests. The ratio, currently, seems to be more along the lines of 30-40% for battles and 60-70% for quests. All in all, I agree that the limitations put in fear of powergaming, something that should be not a secondary, but a tertiary concern to us, are severely impairing the primary focus (at least in my eyes) of Althanas: telling stories and nurturing creativity.

I have rarely seen powergaming on this site, and when I have it was dealt with swiftly. By my own experience, the damage done to players by other player's powergaming is mind-blowingly insubstantial in comparison to that done by the current rules of registration - which I must note are not readily available to the player base and seem to be in contradiction with what is written, black on white, in the RoG.

I attack no one, and judge no one. I have no interest in whatever love-hate, socio-political hokum has or has not been witnessed on the forums - as does the majority of Althanas, I would like to believe. With this out of the way, I invite people who feel the same (and those who don't) but were too afraid of some non-existent retribution to befall them for voicing an honest opinion. If there is no one, then I will simply have been mistaken in my observations, and that's alright: I won't mention it again, and I'll rest well knowing that I've at least done my part in bringing it up.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I've said similar things a dozen or so times in a dozen or so threads. I'd hunt them down, but apparently that tl;dr quote block is like the epitome of perfection, so I shan't bother.

We care far too much about balancing a game and far too little about facilitating storytelling. Our registration rules have gotten pointlessly officious to give the illusion of fairness while really providing little balance in power level between characters and strangling the life and creativity out of many.

We focus in on "no guns", "no flying", "no teleportation", "only X number of skills", "items must be made of iron or steel" because they're hard and fast rules and just about the only ones. We cease to consider whether these make sense.

I remember a thread where the poster was asked to reduce some power from 1.5x normal human to like 1.2x... like someone's really counting.

Also


Can't ask for "creative freedom" when creativity isn't at a maximum for the profile or the character idea.

This is just false. I don't know anything about the Dresden files but the idea doesn't seem all that original in the first place. And how original a character is should have nothing to do with what latitude it is allowed.

[Requiem of Insanity]

Honestly, Realm of greeting really does need some serious looking at. It's very Realm like, and it's greetings equate to horse poop flung by monkeys. I have seen many, many accounts just stop because the players conform to the whims of the Mod to "Balance" their character, but just pieter out and die within the first month because the vision they had just got lost in translation.

The Realm of Greeting should only impress caps upon people if they are trying to hammer out fifteen abilities, because that I think is far to many. If someone is trying to be an expert in sword skills as well as in stealth and take one for the team by being above average in lethal stabbing of the eye, than yes, maybe we should intervene. BUt even if someone comes in, plays a barbarian with only one skill, "Face beating" and wants to be an expert at that, than fine! Let him. It's his only ability anyway.

As Godhand said in that thread, if someone wants to be a "Master" at playing the violin, than by all means, just do it. It's not like they are going to bust out in song and kill me with it. This applies to people who play RP characters, who have nothing to do with Battle.

But that is only half the problem. By allowing people to impose their own grading system, we create inconsistency that cannot be seen. On this account, I give things a rating out of 1-5. 1 means she's garbage, 5 means she's mastered it. Now if someone has a skill at 7 out of ten to my five out of five, I'll assume my character is better in said skill. But what the fuck does a seven mean to me anyway? What does my four mean to them? The lines get blurred very, very quickly.

If someone wants to have an expert ability, read their history: Did it have sufficient detail and story telling abilities to prove they earn that? I mean, if joe schmo wants expert skill at ass hattery and writes "Joe went to the store and farted," as his proof that Joe deserves mastery in that, than clearly the answer would be no. But if someone takes time to write out why they deserve to be an expert with the bow by proving it in their character's acceptance than by all means do it! It's not going to kill the game.

Oh, and the next vampire that comes in with his 1.5 strength, 1.5 endurance, and 1.5 speed with above average in swords and Blood feed to regain health by feeding on blood should probably get approved, because you know, there's no rules to limit races in the game. By creating a character from a pre determined race, you start off with more abilities than the average person. So where is the balance in that? Oh...that's right, the Brawling Vampire gets the win over the RP wanderer who had to down grade woman watching because being able to rate how HOT a woman was within 10 seconds was just way to powerful.

In all, the ROG really needs to hammer out something tangable, something that the players can set themselves against to create their character. Then, they need to remain consistent to these changes. I'll happily help out if any mod wants the ideas, and in no way is my dry sarcasm meant to offend someone. I'm just vocally admitting that there are problems with this particular facet of Althanas.

[Godhand]

The difference in abilities and why I asked them to be put the way I asked is because that's how the RoG process is done. I'm not going to argue about what makes average to one person not average to another... because it's the same thing to me. Nor will I argue about percentages of the site that battle compared to quest, because that doesn't matter to me. What I'm working with is that I treat all these profiles the same, and ask for limits put on all skills and abilities...

And what I'm saying is that you're doing it wrong. Not just you; every boneheaded fucking judge that goes by their handy little "above average/below average" flowchart made by dumbasses for dumbasses.


Changes that I'd like you to make.

Pick Pockets: Stealth: Lockpicking: Sneak Attack: Daggers:

One above, two average, the others below.

"No compromise! Do what I say, when I say it! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM!? DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM!?"



On a side note

As it has been brought to my attention, and after looking into it myself, this character is quite close to a rip-off of Harry Dresden of the Dresden Files. I'm not going to ask you to change it all, though the bracer is obviously from the show. Instead, I'm going to just ask that you be careful not to follow through with following someone else's idea. Can't ask for "creative freedom" when creativity isn't at a maximum for the profile or the character idea.

This is such snarky, dishonest bullshit. It's a shame you didn't add a little winky smiley face; that would have turned three posts of offended arrogance into one paragraph of nuclear smugness. Here's what I and any non-fucktard is reading:

"You questioned me? WELL NOT ONLY ARE YOU WRONG, BUT I THINK I JUST DECIDED YOUR CHARACTER IS A RIPOFF! WHERE DO YOU GET OFF TELLING ME HOW TO DO MY JOB WITH A RIPOFF CHARACTER!? ONE MORE POST DISAGREEING WITH ME AND I'M LOCKING THIS THREAD AND LEAVING YOU UNNAPPROVED FOR TROLLING."

[Atzar]

I'm undecided on this.

On one hand, I definitely get what's being said here: substantial limitations skew a player's vision of the character. If you skew the vision, one of three things happens:

Maybe the player goes with the flow and makes lemonade out of lemons. That's generally my approach (although I've only had a hang-up in RoG once for four characters, so small sample size may apply).

Maybe the player goes along with it at the time and then RP's with his character as if the changes were never made - in which case, what did you really gain by arguing with him? I'll be honest: I don't remember ever going through a character's profile to ensure that he RPed exactly within the parameters specified within the profile without 'obtaining a search warrant' first, so to speak. If a low-level character waltzes into a throng of armed bandits and proceeds to unleash a fucking firestorm, decimating every bandit and a sizable amount of bystanders while he himself remains unscathed, then that's a red flag. If a level 0 is facefucking a level 3 in a battle without a very good IC reason for it, that's a red flag too. But if a character is RPing his sword skill as 'average' when his profile states that it's 'slightly below average', I never cared.

The last reason is that the player says "fuck this" and leaves. That's obviously the worst outcome for the site as a whole - because who knows how many members we've lost because of this? Who knows how many of those members would still be here, contributing?

Now the reason that I remain undecided is this. In the NCAA Basketball tournament, that first team left out is always pissed because it thinks it deserved to be in. Same deal here - no matter where you draw a line, those that fall just on the wrong side of the fence will always be irritated. At the same time, there has to be a line - you can't just remove it entirely. We are a game, with RPG elements, including the system of leveling up and getting stronger as you progress. If you relax the limits too much, you either make the system meaningless or you end up with a world full of Gokus and Vegetas - neither of which appeals to me, and likely wouldn't appeal to you either. So where do you stop? Where do you set the line, while simultaneously keeping the leveling system relevant?

So I'll say this: I'm in agreement that the system is imperfect. If a solid idea for improvement can be put forward, I'd happily support it. But just as I'm against rules for the sake of having rules, I'm against change for the sake of having change.

[Duffy]

I am not going to ask people to calm down, shut up, and I am not going to edit, delete or lock any thread. I will however ask that you keep it civil, and I am not naming names, or pointing the finger. I am not even asking as a member of staff, I am asking as a member of Althanas; and for once, there is actually meaningful discussion occurring.


So I'll say this: I'm in agreement that the system is imperfect. If a solid idea for improvement can be put forward, I'd happily support it. But just as I'm against rules for the sake of having rules, I'm against change for the sake of having change.

I am not entirely in agreement with your reasoning Atzar, but your conclusive point rings true with me. I have never experienced an issue with the Realm of Greeting, and on the whole, the only people that have I would question their intent and their attitudes to staff in the ensuing discussion. That being said, the RoG grading system is there, like you say, to keep characters relatively similar to allow the levelling system some scope to work with and feel like it's worthwhile.

Recent increase in approval alterations and requests to balance the abilities therein are to ensure that not only the site rules are in place, but also to ensure that nobody ever garners too much starting power or momentum - I am all for lower level starter characters, and I am also all for biography specific breaking of the rules. Having said that, your character bio better be beyond imaginative, beyond woven into current storyline and world, and beyond genius in it's design to allow expert or master skills. Changing the process to include this sort of humanised interpretation on the other hand is hypocritical, and may only increase the very fundamental part of the problem being expressed above.

[Max Dirks]

This is getting a bit out of hand, so I'm going to step in. Several of you are acting like you're twelve and frankly it's getting very annoying. Stop flaming and trolling. It's not that hard to feign respect if you don't like someone, especially on a message board. The thread will stay open, but I'll be monitoring it closely.

Now shut up and go write something! And as Godhand so aptly put it, there is:
"No compromise! Do what I say, when I say it! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM!? DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM!?"

[Amaril Torrun]

I'd actually argue that this is one of the more civil discussions I've seen on Althanas outside of one blatantly disrespectful post.

[Christoph]

Amaril: you forget that it only qualifies as 'civil' if everyone is agreeing with how things are. =p


Now to put in my two GP on the various issues of this thread:


10 Post Rule:

It's silly and pointless. Let players write any kind of story they want, regardless of length. By forcing long threads, this site actually promotes bad writing habits (padding stories to meet length requirements when more brevity would work far better, for example). Basically no professional literary magazine would publish stories over 7,500 words (unless you're a Big Name, and even then you're lucky to see one or two novelettes or novellas per issue, and most magazines don't even do that much). Is every member here aspiring to publish in magazines (or at all)? No, of course not, but we should have a system that makes improvement easier for those who are.

The only problem stems from the EXP formula, which puts out a vastly higher EXP-per-Post ratio for short threads than for long threads (not to mention fails to take into account post length, unless the judges adjust it themselves, which rarely happens no matter how long posts are). Fortunately, it can be fixed by rewriting the EXP formula. But will it be fixed? Probably not.


RoG Restrictions:

In some ways it's necessary, in other ways silly and overly stifling. I'm always more in favor of letting members write what they want. If some people power-game all the time, they'll score low and nobody will want to write with them. No need to have the Level Police on patrol for this.

Even more annoying is that if I want a new character, I have to start back at level zero. Writers shouldn't feel like they need to use the same character for every story. I get around that by just using a ton of NPCs when need-be, even sometimes using ONLY NPCs when the story I want to tell has no place for my main PC and needs something beyond some pathetic newly-registered level 0. Granted, the last time I did that, even though the other person approved, I got hugely score-raped because my PC wasn't present in the thread,


Unwarranted Moderator Intervention in OOC threads:

It's a thinly veiled attempt to stifle opposition, in my estimation. Let the members complain about what they want. If the staff dislikes the complaining, they should try addressing the issues and fixing the problems. This thread, for example, while a little heated at times, is perfectly civil. The intervention by Max Dirks was entirely unneeded and basically read, to me, as "I don't like what's being said here, so I will attack how it's being said." And I'm clearly not the only one holding that opinion.


Finally, I'll make my own addition to the list of pointless rule that make things needlessly harder on the members:

The Reincarnation System:

This wouldn't be a problem if members could just play whatever they want without having to make a new account and start over each time (and that would also cut back on the hundreds of multiple accounts, though then the site might not be able to maintain the façade of life anymore), But failing the reincarnation system should be changed. As it stands, I would lose 50% of the EXP on my main account if I wanted to transfer it over to a new character. There is absolutely no logical reason for that rule. Let members keep their EXP (since they went through all the tedium to earn it, after all).

[Hysteria]

10 Post Rule:

It's silly and pointless. Let players write any kind of story they want, regardless of length. By forcing long threads, this site actually promotes bad writing habits (padding stories to meet length requirements when more brevity would work far better, for example). Basically no professional literary magazine would publish stories over 7,500 words (unless you're a Big Name, and even then you're lucky to see one or two novelettes or novellas per issue, and most magazines don't even do that much). Is every member here aspiring to publish in magazines (or at all)? No, of course not, but we should have a system that makes improvement easier for those who are.

The only problem stems from the EXP formula, which puts out a vastly higher EXP-per-Post ratio for short threads than for long threads (not to mention fails to take into account post length, unless the judges adjust it themselves, which rarely happens no matter how long posts are). Fortunately, it can be fixed by rewriting the EXP formula. But will it be fixed? Probably not.

What is the exp and gold formula? Maybe convert it to work count only? That might be a lot of work though.


About character stuff:
I made my character so that it could develop its own story line, not post a character which has already got a fully developed plot which I shall never be able build upon. I have always found that the key to getting approved easily and allowing your character to grow through each thread. Simply making a character which is quite powerful seems to undermine the whole sense of RPing.

If however you just look at RPing as a writing exercise, then it may be a different story.

[Amber Eyes]

I'm just going to post from the perspective of someone who has only been around for a couple weeks. It seems like as a new person, you have to go through tons of red tape just to get started. I have never RP'd before so I don't know if this is the norm, but it is a bit off putting for someone who is trying to do something in thier spare time. People who are already really into writing will probably stick around, but I'd hate to think that someone like me (Who doesn't have Silence Sei whispering in her ear to post as she's trying to go to sleep) might give up before they ever even get the chance to write. I had to edit my character twice before she was approved, and she didn't even have a weapon other than some smoke bombs to get herself out of a bad situation. I think most people are here to have fun, or in my case try something new. We're not trying to kill off the whole planet. I'm not saying we should overhaul all of the rules, but just let us play...please. Some people like me, may never even make it past character creation. I may even be good at this one day, who knows? Give us a chance to get in the door. I haven't really been around long enough to ask you guys for anything, so ignore me if you'd like...:) I'm just not very good at shuting my mouth, or stoping my fingers as it were.

[Max Dirks]

A quick note from me.

Word count and/or post count is a way to consolidate effort and length of a thread into our incentive framework. Without one of them, a player who writes a 10 post quest and receives an 60 would receive the same amount of EXP as a player who writes a 30 post quest and receives a 60. This inherent unfairness is offset by the current post count modifier.

That said, both post count and word count can easily be abused. If we switch to pure word count, a person just has to add unnecessary fluff to pad their EXP amounts. That same abuse can occur when someone breaks up their posts. The reason why the staff has stuck with post count throughout the years is because it's infinitely easier to determine. I've looked into ways to add a javascript word counter to our postbit_legacy, but at this point it's simply beyond my level of expertise. Without we'd be forced to copy/paste each individual post (some posts are massive) into either Word or another word count application in order to give EXP.

We just use post count because it's easier. Both determinants have a similiar downside that is monitored by judge oversight anyway.

[Christoph]

A quick note from me.

Word count and/or post count is a way to consolidate effort and length of a thread into our incentive framework. Without one of them, a player who writes a 10 post quest and receives an 60 would receive the same amount of EXP as a player who writes a 30 post quest and receives a 60. This inherent unfairness is offset by the current post count modifier.

That said, both post count and word count can easily be abused. If we switch to pure word count, a person just has to add unnecessary fluff to pad their EXP amounts. That same abuse can occur when someone breaks up their posts. The reason why the staff has stuck with post count throughout the years is because it's infinitely easier to determine. I've looked into ways to add a javascript word counter to our postbit_legacy, but at this point it's simply beyond my level of expertise. Without we'd be forced to copy/paste each individual post (some posts are massive) into either Word or another word count application in order to give EXP.

We just use post count because it's easier. Both determinants have a similiar downside that is monitored by judge oversight anyway.


Except it really isn't monitored at all -- very little of anything ever is, which is the source of many of the problems presented in this thread.

That said, I would just suggest having judges eyeball post length, and adjust the post-count variable in the formula based on some determined 'post unit' (approximately 500 words, for example). It wouldn't be exact, but it doesn't need to be exact to be a lot closer than the current system gets. It's really not that hard to eyeball a thread based on 500-word units. I used to do it all the time when I judged, but as far as I'm aware, I was the only one who ever did.

Furthermore, the concern regarding players "abusing" a word-count system is ridiculous. A.) More writing is still more writing, and still represents extra effort. B.) If they just pad their posts with crap, their score will drop, thus costing them significantly more EXP than they gain.


That's only one half of the problem with the EXP formula. As it stands, the longer a thread (in post-count), the less EXP it's worth per-post. I can accept and understand this to a point, because as someone who's done everything from novellas to 'flash' fiction, I know that short pieces have their challenges, and the the planning involved in beginning and ending two stories takes some extra work than writing one story twice as long (though not necessarily as much as one might think). However, the advantage given to short threads is too much, and should be evened out a bit for the longer threads (again, this is speaking strictly in terms of post count -- this issue is entirely separate from the word-count one, except that they both involve how EXP is awarded).

Anyone who hasn't seen the formula won't really know what I'm talking about, but I would honestly suggest just increasing the fractional exponent to something closer to 1 (it's at like... .6 or so right now if I remember correctly). While yes, this would increase the average EXP awarded, I wouldn't consider that a bad thing, as one of the other major complaints is how much slogging about it takes to level up. So... kill two e-birds with one stone.

[Hysteria]

I'm just going to post from the perspective of someone who has only been around for a couple weeks. It seems like as a new person, you have to go through tons of red tape just to get started. I have never RP'd before so I don't know if this is the norm, but it is a bit off putting for someone who is trying to do something in thier spare time.....

I've RPed in a few different systems. If you have a controlled system like this then yes, you do normally have to get through some 'red tape'. If you pick an anything-goes system, then you don't have to worry about any approval at all, but it can be much harder to get started in because most characters will be demi-god level in strength.

Its pretty much a trade off.


Word count and/or post count is a way to consolidate effort and length of a thread into our incentive framework. Without one of them, a player who writes a 10 post quest and receives an 60 would receive the same amount of EXP as a player who writes a 30 post quest and receives a 60. This inherent unfairness is offset by the current post count modifier.

I agree with Christoph. If you fluff your posts then you will probably lose in score. I understand it might be harder to go off word count rather than post count, but if its possible....

Anyway, 10,000 words doesn't equal 10 posts in most circumstances.

[Tshael]

Unwarranted Moderator Intervention in OOC threads:
It's a thinly veiled attempt to stifle opposition, in my estimation. Let the members complain about what they want. If the staff dislikes the complaining, they should try addressing the issues and fixing the problems. This thread, for example, while a little heated at times, is perfectly civil. The intervention by Max Dirks was entirely unneeded and basically read, to me, as "I don't like what's being said here, so I will attack how it's being said." And I'm clearly not the only one holding that opinion.

I honestly disagree with this. Not with the fixing problems part. I am all for that. However, this forum gets more heated with far less mod interference than a knitting forum I post on. That may because those ladies are all hopped up on coffee and have a small arsenal of titanium pointed sticks, but still. I think that Althanians have quite a bit of freedom to air their opinions, including the freedom to complain about stupid things.

I do consider the RoG to be a stupid thing to complain about, but I respect that pretty much everyone is the exact opposite of me. I rarely level, much less finish threads, and have a habit of starting characters who are ridiculously under the level. In Skie and Avery's last update (level 4, even though they are now lvl 6), all that really changes is some minor updates to illusion magic and a dagger that changed hands between the two characters. :P I've never found our system to be encumbering, nor the wait too terrible. I waited three days for Tshael to get approved when I first registered her way back when on the IW, and part of that anticipation, which I feel if I have to wait a week or a few hours for approval, is part of the experience for me. It's the same way I feel when I submit a thread to be judged, that I have created something and put it out to be struck down by disapproval. It makes the approval that it may garner all the more enjoyable.

Like I said, this is just my opinion and I understand that it likely does not agree with anyone else. Because of that, we should talk more closely about updating the RoG. I think that Althanas takes the positions a lot that if there are people who stick around if things don't change, then they don't need to change. However, that can't be further from the truth, and it would be a shame if one of these days the people who are okay without change are the only ones left.

Every life form needs change and evolution, and I believe it is time for Althanas to grow. While I don't think it was out of line for Dirks to come into the thread, I think we deserve more than a "I got my eye on yous guys." I think we deserve some real discussion from the people in charge.

And last, I think that everyone needs to take a deep breath and lay off Task. He approves our characters, takes care of EXP, judges threads and keeps his eye on the OOC forums to intervene when he feels that things are getting out of hand. He does a lot for this site, and the amount of disrespect that he gets in OOC threads is ridiculous.

[Max Dirks]

I agree with Christoph. If you fluff your posts then you will probably lose in score. Likewise, if you break up your posts in odd places to reach 10 then you will probably lose in score too.

[Heartsblood]

so then why the heck does it matter? if it will affect the score one way or another, what is the point of the useless, arbitrary number?

the ridiculously strict rules regarding skills is why i no longer play this character. He's freaking dragon! he's been around for a while and was the highest ranking officer in a military... but he can only be above average with his sword. that makes no sense.

but when i tried to make a character that was ridiculously weak, I had just as much trouble getting him approved as I did any other character.

That's not to say that all rules are arbitrary or useless, but there are some that are down right stupid and need to be looked over again.

And as for being able to say complain about whatever we want? I can't count the number of times I've received warnings for my words that I spent time carefully wording so as to not be breaking the rules. but they still went against staff, so i got in trouble. Hence why I very rarely get involved in anything OOC anymore. I've even received a mystery ban. I still don't know why I received that temporary ban a few years ago when the site was just recovered from that major Crash. When I asked about a reason for my being banned, i was told, by the person who administered it (serilliant) "You don't get one". (yes, i still get rather hot about that. I was treated extremely rudely by a staff member for no apparent reason, and have yet to get any kind of answer for it. not that i expect him to remember why he did it now.) I've also received other "consenquences" for speaking my mind, it's called the Miserable Users group and according to the V-bulletin website (i looked it up when I found out) it's designed to drive a member away from a site, by making it so for them, the site server is always too busy to work properly for them.

I agree that a number of the rules need to be changed. That things have become so insanely difficult to accomplish anything is part of why my activity has dropped so much. I'm starting to see less and less of a point in RPing here, because things are getting ridiculous in the way they are handled. There are number of things on this site that need to be re-evaluated, the RoG, OOC moderation policies, and the EXP/GP evaluation are just the most obvious for me.

[Duffy]

Character development is the simple reason these rules are in place. Very few games or for that matter role playing communities give you the entirety of 'creative freedom' to place a character concept. Everyone starts 'low' to allow development, however, it is perfectly possible to make 'powerful' characters with relevant drawbacks or flavoursome aspects.

Jennifer Oakley and Cydnar are two of my own who are traditionally outside the generic below average at X and average at 1 equation. However they are balanced, located within the genus of the game and are controlled in their application. If you wish to play a several thousand year old dragon, and have him be a mastery of swordsmanship and a seventeenth level atmosphere mage of doom, then frankly, this is not the sort of site/game hybrid for that. I am not saying the current system is entirely right, but I do believe in it, and adhere to it when developing new character concepts.

The aspect of role playing this enhances is continuation, development, and is something that is not unique to Althanas. Many forums in my personal experience have a similar set of rules and regulations and moderation principles. You can all claim creative stifling in this thread, you can all assume that these rules are there to inhibit, not pro-create creativity, but the ultimate fact is they are there to ensure everyone in the simple spirit of competition is on a level playing field when they arrive; to ensure that they progress through the levels and increase their skills exponentially. Such a progression is based on performance in threads, battles and quests; one linked to exp, one linked to judging. To remove it is to remove the point of Althanas.

If you wish to write what you like, where you like, when you like, then I am afraid you're ultimately missing the point of role-playing.

Stats, dice and constraints have been part and parcel of this little nerd niche since Gary Gygax first decided to give a Kobold hit dice. End of. Tweaking such a system between editions? Sure thing. But none of these components are being removed, and we all know how 4th Edition turned out.

[Visla Eraclaire]

If you wish to write what you like, where you like, when you like, then I am afraid you're ultimately missing the point of role-playing..


Do you really think that the rules are "the point" of roleplaying? Last I checked, the point was, and I realize this is revolutionary, but playing a role. If to you, role is synonymous with some kind of rules construct, I feel kind of bad for you. The freedom to select from a wider variety of roles and to craft those roles isn't antithetical to roleplaying. It might interfere with the "game" part of things, but I think that's intended.

I think you're doing something that you frequently do, and that's attacking a strawman argument. Someone says there's something wrong with the RoG and the amount of freedom given there and you go off against the idea of removing the system entirely. I don't think that's really the proposal.

I see this come from the staff a lot. You want to modify a system and they defend why the system exists. Well, here's the thing, people are rarely saying "let's not judge at all" or "let's not have the RoG at all." Sometimes they are, but more often they just want to do those things better, and justifying why they exist doesn't justify why they exist AS THEY ARE.

[Hysteria]

I dunno, this site is pretty good. I been on much worse. The staff are all dedicated and hard working, the turn around times are really amazing and they are working to better the site. If the only problem is with post/word count.... well thats pretty amazing.

I understand that its probably different being involved on the site for so long and I am only new, but compared to some of the other places I have been....

[Visla Eraclaire]

Complacency is the womb of mediocrity.

Only the absolute worst place cannot claim that it is better than somewhere. That should never be sufficient, especially on the internet where the bar is set lower by the day.

[Duffy]

I know roleplaying is playing a role, Visla. But at the same time, roleplaying is also an established form of, shock horror, game. Games have rules, and whilst these are open to interpretation they are still a required part. If you're playing and not playing rules, you're simply imagining, doing as you wish.

Althanas is not that sort of site, it is not a free-form role playing forum, it is not a writer's symposium. Perhaps I am attacking a straw-man argument, maybe I'm just re-iterating why rules and why certain factors of Althanas's inner workings exist, who knows.

I'd like for once to be taken as a person, not a staff member. I am not trying to justify the rules as a member of staff, I was trying to put across my view, I was a community member long before that, and I've been role-playing and involved with internet and tabletop and 'actual' story telling long before I came here to know that whilst rules change, there are considerable numbers of factors to consider in doing so.

But back to the 'staff' member; we do consider suggestions, we do take things on board, and we do address these issues if they are poignantly and empirically raised.

If this thread is about changes to Althanas, about issues with the way it's run, then I'd like to make it known that I have a constant issue with the lack of respect from people towards those who are trying to keep things running, and doing their best to keep the site very much a community. That's not to suggest such respect should be absolute and automatic, no sirrah!

Why should we listen, alter and adapt and constantly revive things if we're taken for granted, or for that matter, if we're attacked and repressed in any number of threads.

I strongly suspect that even if rule changes did come, and if everything was settled, this wouldn't change.

[Ulysses]

*munches popcorn* Well, this is certainly an interesting thread. I’ve been reading all of it, and I was tempted to contribute on a few occasions, but I do feel a bit awkward saying anything given that I’m a new member. It’s generally a bad idea to get mixed up in forum drama early on in your career with a site. So, while I don’t think that I can really offer a valid perspective on most of this, I do have one question on the topic of the Realm of Greeting that I think is relevant here.

That question (and maybe it’s a stupid one) is: what is average?

First of all, I have something to say on the subject of character skills in general. I think that we can all agree that skills on roleplaying websites, particularly this one, are essentially comparative. There is no quantitative meaning in the term “average swordsmanship.” To say that there is would have to put some number on things like technique, speed, strength, and the like—impossible.

That does not, however, mean that the term “average swordsmanship,” is completely subjective or without meaning. It simply means that one character’s “average swordsmanship” is only meaningful when put up against another character’s “above average swordsmanship.” Basically, to say that one character is “average” only tells you which other characters he is better or worse than.

There’s nothing wrong with that—in fact, it’s quite useful. One of the things the staff has said in this thread is that the purpose of the RoG is to keep new characters at approximately the same level of skill as one another. Fair enough, I think that’s a pretty sensible thing to do. While there are roleplaying sites without an equivalent to the RoG, I personally think that is one of Althanas’ strengths. Eliminating the RoG would completely change the character of the site. That might not be a horrible thing, but it would be a major change, and I think it would make Althanas less unique.

It is a multi-sided issue, though. While it’s fairly obvious to say that all incoming characters ought to have the same amount of combat skill, what about other roleplaying-oriented skills? What about violin-playing, or sheep-herding? Should a character be able to start with Expert Rock Skipping, even if they’re only allowed to start with Above Average Ass Kicking?

Frankly, I don’t think I have anything useful to say on that subject, because I just don’t know. What I’m going to talk about is purely relevant to combat skills.

Now, back to my question: what is average? While that’s a useful term when comparing characters to one another (who would win in a Citadel fight, Superman or Batman? sort of thing) things become fuzzier after that. I think there needs to be some sort of clear standard—primarily for the purpose of roleplaying threads. Sure, I know that if my character (above average swordsmanship) gets in a fight with Player X’s character (expert swordsmanship) he’s going to lose. But what about the hordes of NPC goblins he’s battling, though? Are they below average swordsmen? Average swordsmen? Above average? What about the average peasant in an angry mob? And what do I say about characters who don’t use swords at all, but some other weapon?

Someone pointed exactly this problem out earlier in the thread, and I don’t think anyone addressed it, so I hope it’s alright if I bring it up again.

When I think of the term “average,” what comes to mind for me is someone with absolutely no training at all. Farmer Joe, who’s never touched a sword in his life, could pick up a sword and be “average,” because he’s no better or worse off than anyone else new to the blade.

“Below average,” in my mind, entails some amount of disadvantage. When I think of a character as being “below average,” I think of that skill as a weakness for the character. Maybe it’s relevant to explain how I think of character creation here.

I think of characters as starting as a sort of plain, white, block of clay. You mold it how you like it, you give it hair and eyes and a funky looking scar, you tell a neat story about how ole’ Mom and Dad kicked it out of the house when it was a kid, you give it a tendency to pick its nose in public, whatever. This block of clay, though, this little man that you mold with your words until it takes on a life of its own, starts out average in every way. Completely and utterly unexceptional. Tabula Rasa, so to speak: the little man has had no training at all in anything. That is what I think of as “average.”

Then you give him some skills. Above average swordsmanship, let’s say. Maybe he can play the flute above average too. And, if you’re a good writer, you give him weaknesses as well: maybe he’s terrible at singing, or hideously ugly. If you’re a great writer, those weaknesses are equal to his strengths. That’s what it means to have a “balanced” character. Anything that I leave out of my character’s profile I assume to be “average;” no worse and no less than any other person with no experience at that skill.

Given this perception, the Realm of Greeting confused me. Why? The existence of “average” and “below average” skills. “Below average” skills, in my mind, are a bad thing. They’re weaknesses. When I was asked to reduce a skill to “below average,” it seemed to me that I could have had my character remain better at that skill if I had never put it in my profile at all. Now that just seems bizarre.

Seen from this perspective, characters in the RoG start out very very weak. They are allowed one above average skill. No other positive quality defines them. I think this gives a strong advantage to mage/wizard-type characters, because they can list a number of specific spells and get approved. On the other hand, to a melee fighter, they are only given one “above average” skill. What does that even mean?

However, it doesn’t have to be this way. It all depends on the standard. What is average? If average is (as I take it to mean) sort of a base state of non-skill and non-weakness, the RoG seems very strange. If “average” is the average soldier, then it makes somewhat more sense…but that’s still kind of odd. If “average" is the average adventurer…well, what does that mean? We’re back to the problem where “below average” seems like it’s reducing your skill…so why does it count as a strength and not a weakness on the Scale of Balance? Is “below average” a good thing? What’s the base, what skill level is someone with no training at all?

All I'm saying is: given that "average" is a comparative and not a quantitative concept (in this context) you need some sort of standard to compare it to. Maybe there is such a standard and I'm just not aware of it, I don't know. I could be missing something.

Maybe this is all very stupid, I don’t know, but I would appreciate if someone more experienced could explain it to me. All I can really offer is a new player’s perspective, which is that it’s all...more than a little bit confusing. I don't know, I guess I'm probably just being stupid and missing something.

Now excuse me while I go try and extract my foot from my mouth.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I know roleplaying is playing a role, Visla. But at the same time, roleplaying is also an established form of, shock horror, game. Games have rules, and whilst these are open to interpretation they are still a required part. If you're playing and not playing rules, you're simply imagining, doing as you wish.

I already acknowledged that rules were part of a game. You said they were the point of roleplaying. They are not. Roleplaying games have rules, but roleplaying can exist outside of such games. Furthermore, even in roleplaying games, the rules are a means to an end, not an end unto themselves.

Also, I find it amusing that "imagining and doing as you wish" is a bad thing. Fucking creative people and their imaginations! How dare they!


Althanas is not that sort of site, it is not a free-form role playing forum, it is not a writer's symposium.

I'd agree Althanas isn't a free-form roleplaying forum, but I'm not sure you should be able to declare by fiat that it isn't a writing symposium. If it's just a game, it's a very silly sort of one with a lot of odd rules that might confuse someone into thinking it was a writer's symposium. It's a hybrid creation that serves two masters and anyone who stubbornly insists that it is only one or only another is sorely mistaken. Perhaps it SHOULD choose one or the other, but last I checked, it had not.

The board might say "roleplaying forum" everywhere, but most roleplaying isn't adjudged for writing quality and awarded exp based on such evaluation. Most roleplaying games reward IC action not OOC quality. The fact that we do not suggests strongly we are not merely a roleplaying forum.


Perhaps I am attacking a straw-man argument, maybe I'm just re-iterating why rules and why certain factors of Althanas's inner workings exist, who knows.


I can solve this mystery for you. It's the former. You're also employing a false dichotomy. Free-form roleplaying OR rules exactly as they are now. An argument for modification and relaxation of the rules is not a proposal for free-form RP.


I'd like for once to be taken as a person, not a staff member.

Well, you hopped on staff so soon after joining and began towing the party line immediately, so it's hard to separate those. You may think you can put on and take off your staff hat at will during a post, but your personal opinions are so muddled with staff dicta that it's impossible to discern. You can't make appeals or claims based on your position and then turn around and act like you just want to be treated like every other member.


But back to the 'staff' member; we do consider suggestions, we do take things on board, and we do address these issues if they are poignantly and empirically raised.

So... we have to impress you with how we raise these issues to get anything done? The mere fact that the issues are raised and are true isn't sufficient?


If this thread is about changes to Althanas, about issues with the way it's run, then I'd like to make it known that I have a constant issue with the lack of respect from people towards those who are trying to keep things running, and doing their best to keep the site very much a community.

I see more whining about disrespect than actual disrespect, unless you consider any criticism to be disrespectful.


Why should we listen, alter and adapt and constantly revive things if we're taken for granted, or for that matter, if we're attacked and repressed in any number of threads.

Because it's your job on the site. If you can't take criticism, you shouldn't be in a position of leadership. Sometimes being a leader requires making unpopular decisions. I don't think right now is such a time, but the staff seems to think so.

And repressed? Are you sure you used the right word there? We're not the ones with the power to close threads.

[Max Dirks]

Good discussion, Ulysses. I too feel that words like "average" are pretty worthless in the scheme of things. I proposed this to the staff last November, but it wasn't very popular. Here was what I thought could work to qualify those obscure terms:


STEP 1:...Ten entries will qualitatively explain the difference between the weakest ability and the strongest abilities on Althanas. We'll decide this now, together. The RoG moderator will make the subjective determination of what strength level the ability falls under. If a unique ability that does not obviously fit under one of the descriptions is presented, the staff will discuss that ability and decide where it falls (Visla's concept). Each strength level will be assigned a progressive number with one being weakest and ten being strongest (10).

Concerning Multiple Abilities: We will then examine the number of abilities at each power level for each level. This is that "averaging" from before. "Mathematically" it looks like ((Ability Strength Level * Number of abilities at that level) + n (for abilities at different strength level)) / Level. That total is the "average ability strength." It is what we'll use to determine the character's strength as a whole.

STEP 2: Then we will create a level progression chart. This will determine what average ability strength level is appropriate for each level on Althanas. This shouldn't be very complicated as we should just evenly space the average ability strength throughout our 30 level cap.

Step two is completed by comparing the average ability strength to the appropriate average ability strength on the level chart. If the number is higher than the character is not approved. If the number is lower the character is approved. Consider this too: power gaming is only truly enforced in player v. player RP types. Many people play beyond their character's level (using liquid time and other mechanisms) in quests and receive no punishment.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Consider this too: power gaming is only truly enforced in player v. player RP types. Many people play beyond their character's level (using liquid time and other mechanisms) in quests and receive no punishment.

Many do, others don't. If you want to make an administrator edict right now saying: "Characters will not be penalized for playing with unapproved abilities, items, etc during quests."

That would be great and give your comment here some real meaning. I get the feeling that isn't what you're saying though. If it isn't, all this amounts to is "some people are getting away with it."

[Ulysses]

That seems like a logical plan to me, Max. Why wasn’t it popular? I suppose that might be construed as imposing an additional constraint on characters, but it makes a lot more sense than the current system, and I don’t think it’s any less constraining. It would just make things clearer, especially for new players. *shrug*

It certainly makes sense for combat skills, anyway. And what about non-combat skills? The violin player, for instance?

Well it seems to me like that’s an entirely different category and ought to be separated out. If you want to encourage character development, I suppose it doesn’t make sense to allow people to start out at level 0 with mastery of skills. However, it also doesn’t make sense to force a character to make a choice between effectiveness in combat or cool roleplaying skills.

Any old level 0 character interested in Citadel battles is going to want to be at least as powerful as his fellow level 0s. She’s forced to spend her “above average” and “average” skills on combat, lest she fail to measure up to her foes. But what if she really wants that piano-playing skill? Well, tough luck, kid.

In my opinion, you shouldn’t have to sacrifice combat skill for roleplaying skill, or vice versa. They’re different categories with different uses, and different standards need to be applied. I’m not arguing that there shouldn’t be any standards put on roleplaying skills, they should just maybe different, more relaxed ones than on combat skills.


Power gaming is only truly enforced in player v. player RP types. Many people play beyond their character's level (using liquid time and other mechanisms) in quests and receive no punishment.

I think I see what you mean here, and it’s not surprising. People are only really going to complain about powergaming in Citadel battles and the like. Besides, is a player playing slightly beyond the skills in his or her profile really that much of an atrocity?

Think once again of the violin player. She’s of above average overall skill. She might perform three concerts a week. One day she’s at the top of her game, everything seems to go right, the crowd loves her. She, in effect, plays at an Expert level skill. Another day everything goes wrong. Her dog chewed on her instrument, she’s just in a bad mood, and she performs at a below average level. What I’m trying to say is: in real life, people don’t consistently perform at the exact same level at tasks. Take this site, for example! To be really nerdy, Althanas is basically a test of a person's Writing Skill. If we expected this site to work the way we expect characters skills to, everyone would always get exactly the same score on every thread they submit. Which obviously doesn't happen. Sometimes people get high scores, sometimes people get low scores. It varies.

A character’s skill level can be viewed more as a vague approximation of how they will do on average, over time, rather than an exact pinpoint of how they will perform every single time. When someone writes a story, it’s assumed that what they’re writing about is exceptional. Why else would someone be interested in reading it? So, to say that characters in quests perform somewhat above their typical skill-level is probably reasonable and a non-problem. It isn’t really godmodding so much as interesting storytelling.

However, when someone performs at a level far, far above what is outlined in their character profile…that can be a problem. However, won’t they automatically be deducted in their score at the end of the thread? It’s simply not good writing. Character’s “discovering” new skills or talents that get them out of sticky situations isn’t particularly interesting or effective. It’s actually a typical hallmark of the typical Mary Sue. Not that it couldn’t be done effectively, it just isn’t a tool a very skilled writer will generally used.

Not to mention that the sort of person prone to really egregious godmodding probably isn’t a good writer in the first place, and isn’t really going to stick around. I’m not sure what the experience on this site has been, but bunnying and powergaming mostly seem to be found among very new players; and simply explaining the concept to them is usually enough to get them to stop.

[Max Dirks]

Let me clarify for you Ulysses:

The RoG only regulates skills and abilities likely to have an effect on general combat, player versus player combat and incentives (like GP and EXP). Thus, a violin player who is just playing the violin will not be regulated, but a violin player who uses their violin to produce magic will be limited. This, for Visla, is the official stance.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Except that the recent activity in the RoG shows that isn't true. How is Lockpicking a combat skill? Slapping "this ability cannot be used against other players" on abilities does help them get approved, but the many approvals still stubbornly count these abilities against some imaginary total number.

If this is your stance, you need to re-train your mods again.

[Ulysses]

I see, I guess? That does make sense (about the violin player not being allowed to use the violin to do magic). So basically, if you have a skill, you're allowed to perform it above the level listed in your profile...you just can't do new skills?

But doesn't that mean you'd be able to have unlimited non-combat skills, if the RoG only regulates combat skills? That doesn't seem like the case, though.

EDIT: yeah pretty much what Visla said, I didn't see her post before I posted. It still seems like, if you have above-average in some role-playing skill, the mods are going to make you have less of other skills.

As in: if you're allowed to have one below average, two average, one above average...and you make your above average skills Knitting, you're not going to be able to have another above average skill just because Knitting isn't useful in combat. Unless you're poking someone with the knitting needles or something. I guess. That might be awesome...

[Max Dirks]

How is Lockpicking a combat skill?It's not. It qualifies for regulation under the likely to have an effect on incentives piece. Before you say anything, I realize that most of that regulation will be done by the awarding judge; however, there have been situations where judges have offered too much GP to characters based on their innate abilities (for example, when the Red Hand was popular, players got 10,000 GP from a 10 post quest cutting down trees in the forest and selling the wood to the Bazaar) so it's essential to have a reference.

[Ulysses]

Likely to have an effect on incentives? I don't think I understand, what does that mean?

[Taskmienster]

RoG stance is not about combat orientation only. I think that's where the flaw in logic in regards to what is regulated comes from.


Except that the recent activity in the RoG shows that isn't true. How is Lockpicking a combat skill? Slapping "this ability cannot be used against other players" on abilities does help them get approved, but the many approvals still stubbornly count these abilities against some imaginary total number.

If this is your stance, you need to re-train your mods again.

Lock-picking is an example of a skill that is regulated due to incentives gained from it's use. If you haven't noticed, as well, there is only me and Dirks running the RoG. And I've regulated it pretty much, if not always, consistently from profile to profile. As a member of Althanas since March of '03, a mod for over a year and a half with Task, about a year with Osato (both times in the RoG), and the Admin in charge of Content since Bloodrose stepped down as well as in charge of general Features since Tainted Bushido stepped down... I have continued to treat every profile the same way.


Likely to have an effect on incentives? I don't think I understand, what does that mean?

It means, for example, I have a character named Ranger. He was a miner with the Red Hand, a clan that used to be big on the site and really active. I could write a solo that was just him mining, but I could only gather what was approved through the RoG for me to gather. 35% iron, 25% plynt, the rest useless rock. Had that not been regulated, as a skill that effected incentives, I could have potentially mined titanium and mythril instead. As it stood, and still stands I supposed, the mining ability that was regulated level to level with the characters growth allowed me to gain money from the trade. That is what it means "effects incentives". As a warrior, I could take that money and buy better weapons and suddenly have an upper hand.

[Zook Murnig]

With regards to average, below average, and above average abilities, I believe the standard that's been in place is that these are as compared to the average person in that or a related field. So, looking at it that way, level 0 characters are already a cut above the common masses. An above average swordsmanship? Alright, you're better than the average career soldier at handling your sword. Average shield use? Cool, you use your shield in the same skillful manner as the average shield-bearing soldier. Below average acrobatics? Okay, so you're a little worse at leaping, jumping, tumbling, etc. than the average street performer, but you're still better than the average layperson.

With that in mind, I know that it's not stated explicitly that way in any area of the Realm of Greeting, and so there come the questions of "What is average?" It really should be spelled out, if we're to use such a term so heavily.

As well, the rule has not always been "one above, one below, two average." That's kind of an arbitrarily stated guideline that was thrown out consistently by a lot of RoG staff in the past year or two. When I was working in RoG, I recall having to look at the profile as a whole, saying "Okay, you have this, this isn't clear, and this needs to be downgraded a bit. Then you'll be alright, unless you have any more changes you'd like to make."

And, as I recall, I never really gave two shits about non-combat skills unless they were skills used to create things, like blacksmithing. And even then, it was just to state that you would have to actively use the skill in a thread to gain the benefit, unless it was stated as a part of your biology and spelled out how much you get each thread (a la Seamstress of the Sinister of Ataraxis fame). Non-combat skills are exactly that, skills that have no real effect on combat. They are story-telling devices, and should be added and subtracted and upgraded freely.

What needs to be done in RoG is not necessarily an overhaul of how it works, but just an explanation. The FAQs have been there since this iteration of the forum began, and have had only minor updates since then, and almost none of those in recent years. They need an update.

With regards to changing to a word count formula, I think that would be a supremely bad idea. Not because "people will start fluffing their stuff out to get extra XP." Rather, because it will encourage one writing style over another. That is to say, the people who are naturally wordy, and good at it, will get decidedly more EXP than people who are naturally concise, and good at it. The formula as it stands uses post count, which is sufficiently arbitrary and disconnected from actual volume, and is more a measure of quantity of content. However, I will agree that significantly less EXP per post for higher post counts (I've tested this in the formula, and I know it's true, and I know how to fix it) is not something that's conducive to maintaining a broad range of styles. I'm with Christoph on this one, we need to up the fractional exponent a bit to make it a more gradual slope, but still a downward slope nonetheless.

[Ulysses]

Task: Okay, well that makes sense. Basically skills that let you make money need to be limited, because otherwise you could just get overpowered by buying equipment? It makes sense. A spell that made gold appear out of thin air would clearly be overpowered, even if it didn’t have use in combat. That does seem logical. The only thing is, I suppose, that the line between what skills affect incentive and what ones don’t is sort of blurry—but that’s up to the judges in the RoG to decide.

And ah, thank you very much Zook! That’s pretty much all I was wondering. It isn’t really explicitly stated anywhere in the rules or character creation stuff (or at least, not that I saw) that that’s how below average-average-above average works. That makes sense, and it’s sort of what I figured it would mean.

So basically if you have average lumberjacking skill…you’re average among people who lumberjack for a living, not among random people who can’t tell a tree from a clocktower, yes? Well that works and makes sense as far as scales go. It also means that being “below average” isn’t really a negative thing.

I mean, really it doesn't matter what the scale of comparison for what "average" is, there just has to be SOME scale or else it's pretty much meaningless.

I do think that probably needs to be explained somewhere though, it certainly caused me a fair amount of confusion, and I don’t think I could be the only one…

[Duffy]

What needs to be done in RoG is not necessarily an overhaul of how it works, but just an explanation. The FAQs have been there since this iteration of the forum began, and have had only minor updates since then, and almost none of those in recent years. They need an update.



That'll do for me, :D

But anyway, on with the role playing, how I do love witnessing post-modernity in action.

[Atzar]

With regards to changing to a word count formula, I think that would be a supremely bad idea. Not because "people will start fluffing their stuff out to get extra XP." Rather, because it will encourage one writing style over another. That is to say, the people who are naturally wordy, and good at it, will get decidedly more EXP than people who are naturally concise, and good at it.

Thank you. Everybody needs to read this and love it.

[Christoph]

If you wish to write what you like, where you like, when you like, then I am afraid you're ultimately missing the point of role-playing.


You know, 99% of the RPG rulebooks on the market state very clearly, usually right in the first chapter, that rules are meant only to ENHANCE the fun of roleplaying, and that they should be ignored or changed if they get in the way of enjoying the game. Rules =/= roleplaying. Rules should only be kept in their current form if they enhance enjoyment. The current RoG and character advancement rules apparently are not, and thus there is no reason to keep them in their current form.

To be honest, I don't even think registration and levels and all that are even necessary, but they are far too ingrained into this site to get rid, and as such I'm not proposing that we remove that system entirely (so don't make a massive post arguing against removing the system). I do think it should be changed, though, and my suggestions are as follows:

1.) Ease restrictions on level 0 characters, allowing more freedom and less feeling like a newborn kitten.

2.) Get rid of the GP system entirely, replacing it with a World of Darkness-esque "Resources" or Wealth trait that can be included in a character profile, counting like any other attribute or ability. That way, RoG staff can stop having conniptions about lock-picking skills or other nonsense, the Bazaar, which is more or less a silly, useless waste of space and staff energy, can go away, and players can finally have the option of realistically creating a character from a noble or wealthy family.

3.) Increase the rate of level advancement a little bit. This would be easily accomplished in the same stroke as fixing the EXP-to-Post ratio imbalance that I mentioned earlier. This way, players won't feel like they have to slog through endless threads that they don't want to do in order to finally tell tell the stories they wish to tell.

4.) Allow players to have more than one character on an account, using the same level. Or at the very least, let them use NPCs more freely, even in lieu of their PC in solo threads or where the other participants agree. That way, members can write the stories they want without first needing to register an entirely new character and spend months and months leveling him/her up. Of course, then Althanas wouldn't look as active without so many extra accounts floating around.


Any and all of these suggestions would help.

[Visla Eraclaire]

So basically because some idiot mods a long time ago let the Red Hand get out of hand, people can't pick locks.

Fantastic.

Regulating the rewards is already done, regulating the skill is nonsense. The regulations aren't tight enough to serve any real purpose. They're just obstruction. What does "below average" lockpicking keep someone from getting?

Visla carelessly locks a bar of solid gold in a common desk. It would only take below average lockpicking to open the lock. So someone can get the bar. Conversely, someone very paranoid locks a simple scrap of paper inside a safe.

You cannot say lockpicking can only pick locks that have items of value X inside. That makes no sense at all.

Similarly, I've seen knowledge skills regulated. Or crafting skills. The humorous thing is, you don't need a crafting skill to get items from a quest, but somehow it's treated as if crafting greatly affects the rewards you would get. I can kill a man and take his sword more easily than I can write an interesting thread about forging a sword. How does "affecting incentives" factor into that? Maybe in a standard RPG this would make sense, where you would not want people simply gaining things by crafting and not fighting. But "work" in Althanas is typing stories. Whether you grind mobs or grind crafts or whatever, it doesn't much matter.

So many rules are made as if this were a standard RPG. So much useless cruft...

Max seemed to anticipate this objection and then just handwave it... Utter nonsense.

[Duffy]

I've frankly stopped giving a shit.

This particular staff member is off to do his job, keep the site running, bring Scara Brae to life, be helpful to newcomers and oldies alike, and instigate, SHOCK HORROR! Some role-playing on this role-playing site.

Anyone wishing to join in with this frankly rare breed of activity is welcome to do so, anyone wishing to contribute to an OOC forum discussion and continue to not be involved in the point of Althanas, is free to do so.

[Heartsblood]

Character development is the simple reason these rules are in place. Very few games or for that matter role playing communities give you the entirety of 'creative freedom' to place a character concept. Everyone starts 'low' to allow development, however, it is perfectly possible to make 'powerful' characters with relevant drawbacks or flavoursome aspects.

The rules, arbitrary as they are in many aspects, are there simply to keep people from growing faster than those in charge deem acceptable. They are not necessary for character development itself, only to regulate it. And no, you can’t create even a semi-powerful character. This character is an example. I had to dumb down his abilities in order to play him, and then I found that because I had to dumb them down, that I really didn’t like how this character played out. The only change I would make to this character for starting would be that he was an expert swordsman, after all he is the highest ranking officer of a military force. However, I know I would not be allowed to do that because no one can have an expert at level 0, but if they word it properly they can pretty dang close.

Starting low is not the problem, is that we are required so low as to practically be just graduated from high school. With such a few number of skills allowed, it’s a wonder anyone can survive long enough to level. It’s stupid to say, “Yeah, you’re in your 30’s, and you’re a career soldier and all that, been doing the whole fighting thing for a while, buuuuuut you can still only be average or above average.” We have to start our characters so weak, that a history is almost pointless. What’s the point in being from a family that trained its sons in the swordsmanship from the time they were 10, if at 20 (hmm that makes 10 years of practice and drilling etc) they can only, at most, be above average? Either they have one lousy teacher, or the system is messed up. I’m going with the latter.

It’s incredibly difficult to even make a character that is super weak. Take my alt Hunter Green. I gave him no skills in the sword he carries. In fact I gave him almost nothing and gave him the most basic 1-2 sentence history I could, because at level 0 he hasn’t had time to have adventures to build up strength in anything and it doesn’t matter how many years of training a character may start with, they can still only be above average. Hunter’s story starts with him leaving home with a few changes of clothes, a stolen sword that he doesn’t know how to use, and couple hundred coins, but even that wasn’t good enough.

The RoG needs a serious overhaul in how it rates and handles things. It’s so limited and daunting, it’s no wonder there are pages and pages and pages of accounts that don’t even have one post, or if they do, it’s in an OOC post and no IC posting. It’s overwhelming and disheartening when someone has a character they really like and have been using for quite some time, to have weaken them to the point of being child-like in comparison.


If you wish to write what you like, where you like, when you like, then I am afraid you're ultimately missing the point of role-playing.

Visla is right; the idea of role-playing is playing a role. Not adhering to a set of rules. Role-playing is about creating a character and developing it. Rules in regarding development should encourage growth and fun. However, telling me that I can only have X many skills, because I’m level 0, does not encourage growth or fun. It tells me that I have to use a character at half the intended strength (or lower) for quite a while, to be able to get to where I can use him as intended. As a new member, I would find that stupid, and probably leave.

But at the same time, role-playing is also an established form of, shock horror, game. Games have rules, and whilst these are open to interpretation they are still a required part. If you're playing and not playing rules, you're simply imagining, doing as you wish.

Correction: Role-playing is playing a role. An RPG is a role-playing game. There is a difference, however fine it may be, the difference is there. A game has rules. To simply role-play does not require rules, only an imagination and a venue for releasing said imagination. In case it hasn’t been obvious enough, Althanas is not an RPG.

But back to the 'staff' member; we do consider suggestions, we do take things on board, and we do address these issues if they are poignantly and empirically raised.

Then step down off the staff. Because that’s not going to happen as long you are staff. That’s like Obama asking to be treated like a regular person and not the President of the US. It doesn’t happen. And as for the rest that, BULL CRAP!! I can’t count the number of times a member has brought something up that they’d like to see changed or at least re-evaluated, and after a lot of useless posts, it gets shut down without anything having been done and the general attitude of the mods that got involved was “Well. I’m sorry you don’t like it, but that’s how it is. If you don’t like it, there’s the door.”


The RoG only regulates skills and abilities likely to have an effect on general combat, player versus player combat and incentives (like GP and EXP).

Yeah, that why my NON-COMBATIVE flight had to be regulated.


To be honest, I don't even think registration and levels and all that are even necessary, but they are far too ingrained into this site to get rid, and as such I'm not proposing that we remove that system entirely (so don't make a massive post arguing against removing the system). I do think it should be changed, though, and my suggestions are as follows:

1.) Ease restrictions on level 0 characters, allowing more freedom and less feeling like a newborn kitten.

2.) Get rid of the GP system entirely, replacing it with a World of Darkness-esque "Resources" or Wealth trait that can be included in a character profile, counting like any other attribute or ability. That way, RoG staff can stop having conniptions about lock-picking skills or other nonsense, the Bazaar, which is more or less a silly, useless waste of space and staff energy, can go away, and players can finally have the option of realistically creating a character from a noble or wealthy family.

3.) Increase the rate of level advancement a little bit. This would be easily accomplished in the same stroke as fixing the EXP-to-Post ratio imbalance that I mentioned earlier. This way, players won't feel like they have to slog through endless threads that they don't want to do in order to finally tell tell the stories they wish to tell.

4.) Allow players to have more than one character on an account, using the same level. Or at the very least, let them use NPCs more freely, even in lieu of their PC in solo threads or where the other participants agree. That way, members can write the stories they want without first needing to register an entirely new character and spend months and months leveling him/her up. Of course, then Althanas wouldn't look as active without so many extra accounts floating around.

YES!! Thank you!!

[Amaril Torrun]

"Yeah, that why my NON-COMBATIVE flight had to be regulated."

The only limitation that was placed on your flight by the RoG mod was that you can't zap into your opponent during a battle like a hawk, which is combative.

EDIT: While there are sometimes regulations placed on a character that don't make sense, sometimes the reasoning just isn't obvious. Giving newer members some reasoning behind the changes, such as what Letho did for you, is a very effective way to deal with that.

[Duffy]

Then step down off the staff. Because that’s not going to happen as long you are staff. That’s like Obama asking to be treated like a regular person and not the President of the US. It doesn’t happen. And as for the rest that, BULL CRAP!! I can’t count the number of times a member has brought something up that they’d like to see changed or at least re-evaluated, and after a lot of useless posts, it gets shut down without anything having been done and the general attitude of the mods that got involved was “Well. I’m sorry you don’t like it, but that’s how it is. If you don’t like it, there’s the door.”

We dont' discuss potential changes and current shifts in the political atmosphere or agenda of Althanas because we haven't finalised any details yet.

Would you expect Obama (yay, an internet forum of Obama Bashing, who'd have thought?) to reveal top secret dossiers and legal remits to the public before they're checked, vetted and tested? No. Didn't think so.

Change is coming, and like Obama, it won't be coming soon.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I've frankly stopped giving a shit.

This particular staff member is off to do his job, keep the site running, bring Scara Brae to life, be helpful to newcomers and oldies alike, and instigate, SHOCK HORROR! Some role-playing on this role-playing site.

Anyone wishing to join in with this frankly rare breed of activity is welcome to do so, anyone wishing to contribute to an OOC forum discussion and continue to not be involved in the point of Althanas, is free to do so.

This is unproductive. If you're only posting in a thread to say that you're not going to post, just skip the middle step. Frankly, you accuse everyone of being demeaning and disrespectful to you, but what you just said is the real insult.

People are putting effort into ideas to make Althanas a better place and just because they don't jive with your vision of the site, you dismiss the whole thing.

Don't act like you, the staff, are the only people who make positive changes. You're just doing what you think is the best. I actually tried to give you some helpful comments on your ideas because I think the Scara Brae activity is great. All you've done with the suggestions of others is dismiss them en masse, pretending that the suggestions were something else entirely.

It's disgraceful.

EDIT: Your political analogies are naive and inappropriate.

The progress of rule reform isn't some top secret military strategy. You might want to solicit input from the members. The leaders of the forum should serve the member base. If you wonder why you get disdain, one reason might be this attitude that the mods are not just servants and stewards for the forum but some kind of elevated species that will discuss matters in cloister and then reveal unto the people their glorious work when it is complete. I've been on staff. I've been off staff. I'm the same person I've always been. Stop treating the members like they shouldn't have a part in things. The forum isn't a democracy by any means, but there's a nice middleground between doing everything by popular vote and issuing capricious edicts and rejecting popular input.

Christoph has provided an excellent summary of various ideas that have been discussed time and again. These things should be looked at instead of getting huffy and demeaning everyone in this thread.

[Heartsblood]

We dont' discuss potential changes and current shifts in the political atmosphere or agenda of Althanas because we haven't finalised any details yet.

Would you expect Obama (yay, an internet forum of Obama Bashing, who'd have thought?) to reveal top secret dossiers and legal remits to the public before they're checked, vetted and tested? No. Didn't think so.

Oh for crying out loud! Stop acting like you're so all knowing because you've been on staff a few months. I've been an active part of Althanas for the last 5 1/2 years, so I know what I'm talking about when I say that issues have been brought up, sloughed off by the mods, and swept under the rug. I've seen it, Duffy, and no amount of defensive staff jargon is going to change that.

No one has asked for insight into the "top secret" goings-on of the staff, least of all me. I merely pointed out that the VAST majority of the time, the general attitude of staff (not necessarily all staff, but as a general whole) toward member complaints/suggestions for improvement have been "That's nice, thank you for input" and then the problem is made to disappear until another member gets up the guts to say something.

As for Obama, who's bashing? I only used him as example of not being able to change hats at will. That's not bashing. Please stop jumping to conclusions and indirectly accusing me of things I have not done, it lessens your credibility as a comeptent moderator.

EDIT: Amaril, you missed my point entirely. Romis has never and was never intended to be able to use flight in combat, yet it still had to have a limitation on it because it's a SKILL

[Godhand]

I've frankly stopped giving a shit.

This particular staff member is off to do his job, keep the site running, bring Scara Brae to life, be helpful to newcomers and oldies alike, and instigate, SHOCK HORROR! Some role-playing on this role-playing site.

Anyone wishing to join in with this frankly rare breed of activity is welcome to do so, anyone wishing to contribute to an OOC forum discussion and continue to not be involved in the point of Althanas, is free to do so.

Do I have to pick one or the other?

[Atzar]

This will be off-topic, and for that I apologize. It may not be my place to say this, and for that I don't.

Can we inject this thread with a little respect? It really isn't hard to discuss this stuff in a civil manner, yet it seems like several of you are incapable of it - you can't make points without tucking condescending, sarcastic jabs into all of the nooks and crannies of your argument. Then, when people start getting offended, shit blows up and the thread gets closed, you all sit around with your thumbs up your asses wondering how Task could possibly do such a thing. I'm talking to people on both sides of this argument.

Take it easy. Trust me: more gets accomplished when things stay respectful.

[Visla Eraclaire]

The sad thing is, the only staff responses we're really getting are dismissive or responding to attacks. There's no response to Christoph's great omnibus proposal.

Do Task or Max want to say something about those ideas? Duffy is "done"

[Rayse Valentino]

Well, the limitations on level 0 are a bit harsh. When you have the vast majority of Althanas players circumventing their profile's limitations in quests routinely and essentially nobody caring, you know you got an obsolete system in place. All you have to do is say "All bunnying approved" and you can do whatever you want. Hell, if it's a solo then nobody cares from the get-go. The wealth system is nice too, since with a certain level of wealth you could have certain quality goods, and maybe a certain amount of them, so you wouldn't have to waste mod power on outdated modes of item acquisition such as The Bazaar. The third item is unnecessary, since as I said you can do whatever you want in your own threads, only using your profile as a guideline or ignoring it entirely. As for NPCs, people already use copious amounts of them, and you can already make an entire thread with just an NPC and nobody cares. I tried using an NPC once and my mom got scared, and said, "You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel-Air." I whistled for a cab and when it came near The license plate said fresh and it had dice in the mirror. If anything I could say that this cab was rare, but I thought, "Nah, forget it. Yo, holmes to Bel-Air!" I pulled up to the house about 7 or 8 and I yelled to the cabbie, "Yo homes smell ya later!" Looked at my kingdom I was finally there, to sit on my throne as the prince of Bel-Air.

[Amaril Torrun]

You know, 99% of the RPG rulebooks on the market state very clearly, usually right in the first chapter, that rules are meant only to ENHANCE the fun of roleplaying, and that they should be ignored or changed if they get in the way of enjoying the game. Rules =/= roleplaying. Rules should only be kept in their current form if they enhance enjoyment. The current RoG and character advancement rules apparently are not, and thus there is no reason to keep them in their current form.

To be honest, I don't even think registration and levels and all that are even necessary, but they are far too ingrained into this site to get rid, and as such I'm not proposing that we remove that system entirely (so don't make a massive post arguing against removing the system). I do think it should be changed, though, and my suggestions are as follows:

1.) Ease restrictions on level 0 characters, allowing more freedom and less feeling like a newborn kitten.

2.) Get rid of the GP system entirely, replacing it with a World of Darkness-esque "Resources" or Wealth trait that can be included in a character profile, counting like any other attribute or ability. That way, RoG staff can stop having conniptions about lock-picking skills or other nonsense, the Bazaar, which is more or less a silly, useless waste of space and staff energy, can go away, and players can finally have the option of realistically creating a character from a noble or wealthy family.

3.) Increase the rate of level advancement a little bit. This would be easily accomplished in the same stroke as fixing the EXP-to-Post ratio imbalance that I mentioned earlier. This way, players won't feel like they have to slog through endless threads that they don't want to do in order to finally tell tell the stories they wish to tell.

4.) Allow players to have more than one character on an account, using the same level. Or at the very least, let them use NPCs more freely, even in lieu of their PC in solo threads or where the other participants agree. That way, members can write the stories they want without first needing to register an entirely new character and spend months and months leveling him/her up. Of course, then Althanas wouldn't look as active without so many extra accounts floating around.


Any and all of these suggestions would help.

1) I think clarifying the reasons behind questionable restrictions would be the positive first step. If a legendary violinist is told to tone down his musical ability, it should be clear to the newcomer that the intention is so that he shouldn't be able to raise 1 million gold from a stellar concert or put a daze on a PC during battle with the beauty of his music.

2) A wealth trait sounds interesting to me, but I'd like to see more about this before I can form an opinion, simply because I don't see how it'd work without more explanation. Would someone wanting to play a prince have access to an empire's wealth?

4) I've always thought that by creating an NPC in your character's story, you had the freedom to use that NPC in your writing in whatever way you see fit, even if that meant telling a large chunk of your story through that NPC's perspective.

[Godhand]

I must be the only person that loves the fucking bazaar. It's great, but I can see how it might only be great for me. I have so much money and so few needs that whenever I'm feeling burned out and want to role-play but not have to fucking GRIND IT OUT, I'll just fuck around in the bazaar and it's like Cheers, where everybody knows your name da da dadadada.

I don't want to see it gone and replaced by a "Wealth" ability and then have buying shit go OOC. I guess it's just me? I like the sense of DESTINY you get when you buy something fuckspensive and the mod treats it like a big deal and you get to feel like a big shot. That's fun.

[Amaril Torrun]

I actually have a favorite Godhand bazaar thread...

[Visla Eraclaire]

It's taken you years and years of manipulating opportunities that no longer exist to get that much money. If you ever want to shop IC and stroke your ego, I could always play a bazaar NPC for you. I did it for a long time.

[Atzar]

The sad thing is, the only staff responses we're really getting are dismissive or responding to attacks. There's no response to Christoph's great omnibus proposal.

Do Task or Max want to say something about those ideas? Duffy is "done"

So maybe it would help if people stopped attacking them? That, at least, would remove one of their ways to deflect the question. That last statement was what I was talking about on your part - it wasn't necessary. You're goading him, and you know it.

As for Christoph's proposal... I'm undecided on #1. I'd like to see some real proposals - the discussion thus far as been vague about what the changes will actually be. I'll give better feedback when talks get a little more detailed.

I love #2 - GP is almost useless in the current system, and the Bazaar just represents time that the staff could better spend doing something else.

I like #3, I guess. With more leeway in RoG, though, players won't need to level to 'get to the stories they want to tell' - they'll have the character they want from the start, more or less.

For #4, I suppose free use of NPC's would be nice. Not all that fond of the more-than-one-character-on-an-account idea. I don't know... how many people have been hurt by the policy - whatever it is - that's in place right now? This seems more like a personal request than a widespread issue, but I may be wrong.

[Amaril Torrun]

The only thing I have to disagree with is that having the bazaar is a big depletion on the staff's time. If it is hardly used, then it hardly takes up any time.

[Atzar]

The only thing I have to disagree with is that having the bazaar is a big depletion on the staff's time. If it is hardly used, then it hardly takes up any time.

Good point - that reinforces the fact that GP isn't very meaningful, though.

[Amaril Torrun]

Yeah, GP isn't nearly the same as it used to be, though there is still the occasional time where someone needs something quickly without wanting to go through an entire quest for it. It isn't perfect, but simply one more way to do things. Region specific bazaars were interesting when they were active, though I'm not sure if they'd work at the present.

[Visla Eraclaire]

You're goading him, and you know it.

I sure am. It's hilarious that he can't resist it. More importantly I'm goading the other two into actually participating productively. I was hoping I could shame him into participating as well, but I suppose you're right. That isn't happening.


As for Christoph's proposal... I'm undecided on #1. I'd like to see some real proposals - the discussion thus far as been vague about what the changes will actually be. I'll give better feedback when talks get a little more detailed.

As I've said time and again, proposals cannot get but so developed until there's staff on board. Otherwise you may as well just beat your head against the wall. We haven't gotten a lot of traction with the people who actually need to agree, so until there's at least general assent... which we're nowhere near right now.

I agree completely with your other comments. The only problem with the comment on #4 is it just needs to be clarified. NPC use is sometimes ok and sometimes not. It's like Dirks' comment about acting outside your abilities in a thread. Sometimes the mod says ok, sometimes you lose points. There just needs to be a solid policy allowing extra freedom in quests, solos, or other conditions of consent by the other participants.

Some judges are definitely ok with this, others aren't.

[Atzar]

Why doesn't anybody use GP/the Bazaar? I'd like answers from anybody that reads this question, if you don't mind. Is it just easier to get what you want from questing? Is GP not worth enough - in other words, it takes too much GP to get something useful? Do you just not think of it? Is it too hard to get a large quantity?

It seems to me that money should be valuable. That's, you know, the point of money. It seems like you should want to accumulate it.

Visla, your point is a good one - I guess the next step is to wait until we get some more input from some bold and italicized names. Amaril, though, seems to share my point of view: as soon as I know what the proposal is, I'll try to help hammer out details.

[Visla Eraclaire]

http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=20341

Lots of discussion of GP's uselessness, possible alternative uses, etc. in there. Unfortunately... the thread just stopped and never really went anywhere. It's difficult to keep these balls rolling.

[Amaril Torrun]

I think its a collection of things. Characters throw some coins on the counter of an inn for their room or on the table for a round of drinks and it doesn't actually cost them any of their gold, detracting from the realism and correlation of IC gold and OCC gold. People in the past have also gotten some pretty expensive items, when if they had asked for just gold, they wouldn't have gotten as much as what that item was worth. That has weakened the concept of OCC gold as well.

I actually don't view the GP issue as too much of a problem, simply because I don't see how anyone really needs a bazaar visit more than every once in a while. Outside of food, shelter and general supplies that have traditionally been automatic, how much could everyone need to buy. A person only needs so many swords and knives and more powerful (such as enchanted) items should be a lot tougher to get.

[Duffy]

I sure am. It's hilarious that he can't resist it. More importantly I'm goading the other two into actually participating productively. I was hoping I could shame him into participating as well, but I suppose you're right. That isn't happening.

Touche.

It is happening. Those changes for Scara Brae you talk of?

They're happening. An issue was raised, and interconnected issues with it raised, and shock horror, they're being changed to reflect the 'whim' of the proletarians. But naturally, because the baby pushed his toys out of the pram and mummy didn't pay attention immediately, he's still content on crying.

[Atzar]

http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=20341

Lots of discussion of GP's uselessness, possible alternative uses, etc. in there. Unfortunately... the thread just stopped and never really went anywhere. It's difficult to keep these balls rolling.

I appreciate the link - I just read through it.

Hey, are we still serious about making the Writer's Workshop judgment thingie work, where other players are the ones who judge the thread?

[Amaril Torrun]

Very much so Atzar. Here is the link to the only workshop thread at the moment. It is almost completely up to the member base as to whether it will work or not.

http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?p=161132#post161132

[Visla Eraclaire]

Touche.

It is happening. Those changes for Scara Brae you talk of?

They're happening. An issue was raised, and interconnected issues with it raised, and shock horror, they're being changed to reflect the 'whim' of the proletarians. But naturally, because the baby pushed his toys out of the pram and mummy didn't pay attention immediately, he's still content on crying.

...Nobody is talking about the changes in Scara Brae here. I have no idea what you're rambling about, but seriously man, you're just embarrassing yourself at this point. I was hoping to provoke you into getting genuinely engaged since your default position is total dismissal, but congratulations. You have foiled my devious plan. It's come at the cost of whatever decency you have left. Just chalk up a win and step away before you bust a blood vessel or something.

Back on topic with the workshop thing, I was going to read that thread over the weekend and see if I could post some feedback. I really hope that it becomes more than just some random comments and could become more of what was discussed in that judging and incentives threads in the RPC.

[Amaril Torrun]

Likewise. I'd love to see some more members get involved so we can have some actual discussions about the story. I'm not saying that if this first attempt of starting the workshop fails, the whole workshop is going down the drain, but it will probably have a lot to say about it.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Yeah, you're definitely right about that.

It isn't a make or break situation, but it would really help the idea gain momentum if this one got judgment-quality feedback from regular members. I think if we can demonstrate that this is an effective proposition the idea of peer review, with commensurate exp gain and possible incentives for the reviewers, could get off the ground.

It's something I'll look into, since I'm on a brief hiatus from my hectic schedule.

[Atzar]

Very much so Atzar. Here is the link to the only workshop thread at the moment. It is almost completely up to the member base as to whether it will work or not.

http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?p=161132#post161132

Good.

The Writer's Workshop is almost a completely altruistic experience right now - you don't get anything for spending a significant amount of time reading somebody's thread and then voicing your thoughts.

2

GP is a useless system at the moment - with a few old exceptions, it's a currency that is largely earned OOC (post count) with IC applications that are limited because of the hassle and the overpricing of useful items/undervaluation of GP.

+ 2

So what if GP was the reward for participating in the Writer's Workshop? Kill it as a reward for threads, instead just make it receivable through the 'shop. At the same time, GP would have to be made a lot more valuable than it is at the moment, and the things it could buy would have to be as useful/cool/wide-ranging as possible to encourage as many people as possible to take part.

= 4!

The idea might need some work, but it has a lot going for it. It encourages people to participate in the Workshop by giving meaningful rewards. I think we would all prefer if more people read the stuff we wrote here, rather than just the judge of the thread. Since more people would be reading, more people would be sending threads to the shop since it would be more active. In a perfect world, people would collude - "hurry up and finish that thread, I need more GP to buy 'Doodad X!'".

Tell me what you think.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I advocated something extremely similar to this in the other thread, so I'm completely behind it. All the pieces definitely need to be fit together to make it worthwhile, but the startup costs in terms of effort and rulemaking aren't actually all that high and could be adjusted on the fly.

I think that's one of the problems we have, we always want a perfect system before we change anything so nothing ever changes. Accept that the idea might take some time to tweek and just let it run and fix it as you go. Even if you mess up a few things along the way, it's not like that would be new for Althanas. There are tons of characters that have items, abilities, windfalls etc that are the relics of past mistakes. They're outweighed by the progress of the board as a whole in the end.

[Duffy]

Level Limit on Scara Brae
Methods of maintaining site activity.
Linking GP to threads and increasing their worth.
Development of Judge Moderation
Trial Run of Workshop
Seperate Moderator To Govern Judging Process Removed From Judging Itself
Development of examples of skill levels, for players to see.
Judge Complaint, Conduct and Player to Judge Communication Review


The vast majority instigated or currently facilitated by me, at other's behest or because I felt it needed to be campaigned for. My primary concern now, and eternally is to maintain activity; to ensure people who come to the site enjoy it, and chose to stay here, for however long they wish to do so. The complaints levied at the Realm of Greeting process are pedantic at best, certainly when you consider the proportion of unapproved bios to those that are. Once the new description and scaled examples are ready, and we as big bad Big Brother are prepared to present them to the community as a whole, we will do so. They've been drafted, re-drafted and drafted some more since well before Christmas, but of course, we didn't do it instantly, so we're 'stifling creativity'.

The character submission process may need clarification or tweaking, but it is not my primary domain so on that topic, I pass you to those who deal with it, and those who care for it's transformation.

You had complaints as a community regarding the judgement process. We listened to these, and have implemented upheavals of the system, and now the judges are observed, by an independent individual; communication between judge and thread writers is now part and parcel of the process, and a complaints procedure if you feel a judgement is unfair or misinformed (with due process) will be delivered to the public domain very shortly. The person to govern this will be the aforementioned independent moderator.

Scara Brae is to become a full nation and region of Althanas in it's own right, with a fully comprehensive and reflexive economy, faction war system, dynamic bazaar and market of its own and the ability to use this 'redundant' gold for considerably more than it can be used with currently. Tied in to this are several reviving attempts for the Power Groups (renamed to factions within Scara Brae) and the chance to be a little different, be a little more prominent and write your character into Althanas history - it will be the nation forged by it's citizens, not archaic principles of Judge's Choice and 'long-term approval.'

In it's stead Underwood will become a designated training ground, supplemented by our excellent staff writers in support of new talent and it will provide a larger place to do so than the Peaceful Promenade. There will be writing workshops, ongoing judgements and editorial sessions between those players with issues they request address, and those who wish to go through a writing process for thread or battle with someone who is willing to do so - to give them a feel of the Althanas experience.

The Judgement Workshop will be trialed, and as Amaril said, it's success depends on your contributions. If you lament it's fall in two weeks time due to lack of activity, then I am very much afraid that is your own fault - you all called for it, the majority at least, and yet stake no claim in it's rise. We have done all our italised backsides can, and from the very brief snippet and sneak peak at the changes implemented, and those in the pipeline, we will continue to do so until the very distant future, or I die of exhaustion - whichever comes first.


*Insert commas or fullstops where needed, I'm too tired to care about grammar.

So, I will take my respect-less self elsewhere, and do my job.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Truthfully, that all sounds very exciting. I think people would have reacted much more positively to this sort of informative list of promising changes than to what you decided to post earlier. Thanks for the update, though I wish it weren't laced with bile. I think you're starting to realize that volunteer work on the internet is a thankless job. This really shouldn't be such a surprise. I fully expect to be reviled and take shit anytime I post anything in these OOC threads, but I think that progress is more important than whether people want to give me a pat on the back.

I think you're wrong that the RoG issues are "pedantic" and I think that simply judging it based on how many profiles are approved vs unapproved is a total non-sequitur. The resistance to any change on this is extreme, it seems, (though I still don't see any reason why there is such recalcitrance) so we may as well focus our efforts elsewhere.

[Aiko]

Trying to help get the workshop going into something great was the very reason I submitted my thread to it in the first place, thinking it'd be an easy thread for its test run to try out some of these great ideas being submitted. If need be, I can finish up and submit more threads for its testing, because I want to help, I really do, but it seems that anything I have to say, has already been said, regardless of where my views might fall, which would reduce my posts to little more than "me too!"

[Amaril Torrun]

It isn't a matter of amassing threads in the workshop as much as it is a matter of amassing member participation in what has already been submitted. I think we may see some increase in productivity in the workshop now that more people are talking about it and asking questions again. Hopefully.

We do appreciate you sending us your guinea pig thread though. :p

[Atzar]

Trying to help get the workshop going into something great was the very reason I submitted my thread to it in the first place, thinking it'd be an easy thread for its test run to try out some of these great ideas being submitted. If need be, I can finish up and submit more threads for its testing, because I want to help, I really do, but it seems that anything I have to say, has already been said, regardless of where my views might fall, which would reduce my posts to little more than "me too!"

No, please do let us know where your opinions lie. Even if it's repetitive, having one more voice on one side or the other gets us that much closer to making things happen.

[Requiem of Insanity]

*Hops back in*

Regarding the GP/ Bazaar issue: This actually was a helpful thing for Cassandra. I anted a sneaking suit that could bend light around her and I really, really didn't feel like churning out a minimum 10K word/10 post thread of absolute garbage to do so. So the bazaar does have a place as far as I am concerned.

However it's roll in this site is absolute garbage as well. The desire to purchase something at times is either thwarted by one of two ways: It's ridiculous to purchase that item through that network (Which is understandable) or it's just plain easier to dump it in a quest as a spoil. (I have received two really nifty weapons as spoils that would cost her more money than she probably would make on the website.)

A proposal if one is so inclined to take this idea and help discuss it, is to not just make the bazaar about items. Expand the horizons upon it by adding new and refreshing ideas. Say instead of drilling out a thread for the sole purpose of increasing your archery skill from Below Average to Average you go to the bazaar and pay out X gold to have an expert archer train you. Now gold has a very realistic need, and that's in training up your skills. Maybe the cost to go from below average to average is relatively cheap, but to go from Average to above average more, and to go from above average to the upper ranks cost a ridiculous amount of more.

The above proposal does have it's flaws, as I can see the abuse in that already, but if someone could help create a system of balance for that it would be really neat idea in my humble opinion. One idea that immediately spring to mind is allowing someone to only go up to Above Average skill at a fee.

The other option is also allow people to by the OOC stuff like Custom user titles. Yeah, they are silly, but hey I'll shell out 200 of my hard earned GP to get a nifty User Title. Or even, as I have seen on this site, allow people to buy EXP to round up their total EXP to gain a level (assuming they are within an appropriate range, and varying the cost upon which level you would go up to.)

Again, I'm always willing to help out the staff with these new ideas. Task and I had already done this once before when this thread got rolling around, so feel free to AIM me or whatnot.

[Atzar]

*Hops back in*

Regarding the GP/ Bazaar issue: This actually was a helpful thing for Cassandra. I anted a sneaking suit that could bend light around her and I really, really didn't feel like churning out a minimum 10K word/10 post thread of absolute garbage to do so. So the bazaar does have a place as far as I am concerned.

However it's roll in this site is absolute garbage as well. The desire to purchase something at times is either thwarted by one of two ways: It's ridiculous to purchase that item through that network (Which is understandable) or it's just plain easier to dump it in a quest as a spoil. (I have received two really nifty weapons as spoils that would cost her more money than she probably would make on the website.)

A proposal if one is so inclined to take this idea and help discuss it, is to not just make the bazaar about items. Expand the horizons upon it by adding new and refreshing ideas. Say instead of drilling out a thread for the sole purpose of increasing your archery skill from Below Average to Average you go to the bazaar and pay out X gold to have an expert archer train you. Now gold has a very realistic need, and that's in training up your skills. Maybe the cost to go from below average to average is relatively cheap, but to go from Average to above average more, and to go from above average to the upper ranks cost a ridiculous amount of more.

The above proposal does have it's flaws, as I can see the abuse in that already, but if someone could help create a system of balance for that it would be really neat idea in my humble opinion. One idea that immediately spring to mind is allowing someone to only go up to Above Average skill at a fee.

The other option is also allow people to by the OOC stuff like Custom user titles. Yeah, they are silly, but hey I'll shell out 200 of my hard earned GP to get a nifty User Title. Or even, as I have seen on this site, allow people to buy EXP to round up their total EXP to gain a level (assuming they are within an appropriate range, and varying the cost upon which level you would go up to.)

Again, I'm always willing to help out the staff with these new ideas. Task and I had already done this once before when this thread got rolling around, so feel free to AIM me or whatnot.

I'd support both ideas for GP use. I think Althanas actually had a way to buy user titles / colored names / etc way back in the day. It would be cool to see that return. As for the training, that's something I hadn't thought of and I love the idea. Even if I wouldn't buy items from the Bazaar, I would definitely shell out cash for some training.

[Hysteria]

The above proposal does have it's flaws, as I can see the abuse in that already, but if someone could help create a system of balance for that it would be really neat idea in my humble opinion. One idea that immediately spring to mind is allowing someone to only go up to Above Average skill at a fee.

Start it off with a limit of some sort. Say one training per level or one per month untill we see if it can be abused.


Complacency is the womb of mediocrity.

Only the absolute worst place cannot claim that it is better than somewhere. That should never be sufficient, especially on the internet where the bar is set lower by the day.

My point was that if you just focus on the negatives without recognising the good parts of this site then you will lose perspective. Things can always be better, or worse.

[Christoph]

Why doesn't anybody use GP/the Bazaar? I'd like answers from anybody that reads this question, if you don't mind. Is it just easier to get what you want from questing? Is GP not worth enough - in other words, it takes too much GP to get something useful? Do you just not think of it? Is it too hard to get a large quantity?

It seems to me that money should be valuable. That's, you know, the point of money. It seems like you should want to accumulate it.


I don't use the Bazaar much for a couple reasons.

1.) I rarely see the point unless I get bored and want to buy something random and crazy for a specific battle or something (like a giant flesh-eating lizard mount that I've only actually had feature in two or three threads).

1.5.) I can get better stuff more easily by questing. My character's crazy masterwork magic may-not-be-a-demon sword would have cost thousands of GP, which my account did not have back when I got the thing.

2.) My character's storyline rarely has a time for him to stop in at a bazaar and buy anything fancy.

3.) Despite my GP count, my character is not supposed to be wealthy. I'm sure that I can't be the only one, and that there are cases where the reverse is true, where a character with little GP would make more sense being affluent.



Good.

The Writer's Workshop is almost a completely altruistic experience right now - you don't get anything for spending a significant amount of time reading somebody's thread and then voicing your thoughts.

2

GP is a useless system at the moment - with a few old exceptions, it's a currency that is largely earned OOC (post count) with IC applications that are limited because of the hassle and the overpricing of useful items/undervaluation of GP.

+ 2

So what if GP was the reward for participating in the Writer's Workshop? Kill it as a reward for threads, instead just make it receivable through the 'shop. At the same time, GP would have to be made a lot more valuable than it is at the moment, and the things it could buy would have to be as useful/cool/wide-ranging as possible to encourage as many people as possible to take part.

= 4!

The idea might need some work, but it has a lot going for it. It encourages people to participate in the Workshop by giving meaningful rewards. I think we would all prefer if more people read the stuff we wrote here, rather than just the judge of the thread. Since more people would be reading, more people would be sending threads to the shop since it would be more active. In a perfect world, people would collude - "hurry up and finish that thread, I need more GP to buy 'Doodad X!'".

Tell me what you think.

It's an interesting idea, but I don't care for it. It would do absolutely nothing to encourage someone like me (even back when I was more active) to participate in the workshop, because GP is still more or less worthless to me. The same problems with the GP-Bazaar system would remain regardless of how GP is earned.

That said, you're headed in the right direction. I would suggest awarding EXP for well-written, detailed Workshop critiques. I know some people might grumble about how we shouldn't award EXP OOCly, but I don't see why not. EXP is awarded OOCly every time someone writes a thread of higher quality, telling a story that could have been scored a 50, but managed to do it better and earned 75, and thus more EXP for the exact same character actions and plot (more or less). Am I making sense? I think I am. >.> But just in case, I will produce a rare treat and write out a more detailed proposal to be taken or ignored as desired. I like numbered points, so I’ll stick with that format. I present to Althanas…

Christoph’s Glorious Plan to Fix Everything Forever (not really, but still cool)

1.) As I mentioned earlier, ease up starting character restrictions, rework the EXP formula to even out the per-post value among long and short threads and let characters advance faster (increasing the fractional exponent attached to the post count modifier to .85 or so should do the trick, but run through some tests until you get it right), and make more NPC freedom official policy, encouraging the use of NPCs over the creation of so many extra accounts (while still allowing players to do so if they wish). All together, this will result in more freedom, and fewer potential new members being turned away because of the restrictions (and as the guy who used to recruit A TON, I know first-hand how many people didn’t join for that exact reason).

2.) Get rid of the Bazaar and GP entirely, replacing it with a Wealth or Resources character Attribute. This would actually be simpler than one might think. The player can assign a rating, from “Impoverished” (roughly equivalent to being Below Average in strength in terms of character ability limits) to “Wealthy” (valued similarly to Above Average strength), to “Very Wealthy” and so on. Since the registration system is somewhat arbitrary (and always will be, and that’s not necessarily always a problem), these are enough guidelines to implement it.

3.) Award EXP to members who write reviews in the Workshop, perhaps thirty per post in the thread, with some modifier for the reviewer’s level (shouldn’t be hard to figure the appropriate modifier out), plus bonuses for particularly well-written and detailed critiques. Have a mod assigned to keeping an eye on things in the Workshop, both looking for fluffed-up, useless critiques that abuse the system and responding to any complaints.


3.5.) Post some nice guides on how to write good reviews. Helping members become better reviewers will help both their writing and those they critique. I will even go out on a limb and offer to write one myself. After all, I believe that members should be encouraged to contribute to the site’s function.

The best part? All of this could be implemented in a day, and I even offered to do the only real bit of hard-ish work (assuming the staff takes me up on my offer to write the Critiquing Guide). Then, effort can be put into actually breathing life into the site – recruiting, features, etc.

[Visla Eraclaire]

My point was that if you just focus on the negatives without recognising the good parts of this site then you will lose perspective. Things can always be better, or worse.

This is a thread for suggesting improvements. Patting ourselves on the back for what's good doesn't move us forward. If you want to start a self-congratulatory thread, maybe I'll post a few things that are good, but this isn't the place for it.

Re Cristoph's Ideas:

I like the idea but I have my doubts about whether it will be accepted. I'm not sure why I have that feeling. It all would work. I think I've just gotten an intuitive sense of the amount of change that seems to instill fear and I think that crosses the line.

To people potentially afraid of that much change, is there any compromise possible?

[Atzar]

It's an interesting idea, but I don't care for it. It would do absolutely nothing to encourage someone like me (even back when I was more active) to participate in the workshop, because GP is still more or less worthless to me. The same problems with the GP-Bazaar system would remain regardless of how GP is earned.

Well, the idea would be to un-nerf GP's usefulness at the same time. I'm not really talking about making things a little cheaper to buy, or making magicky things even magickier. I'm talking about greatly increasing the things available for purchase. I'd like training and OOC benefits to be available, and I wouldn't object to being able to buy EXP either. I just think that getting rid of GP entirely and making EXP the reward for WW participation is taking the easy way out and squandering a very good opportunity.


Christoph’s Glorious Plan to Fix Everything Forever (not really, but still cool)

1.) As I mentioned earlier, ease up starting character restrictions, rework the EXP formula to even out the per-post value among long and short threads and let characters advance faster (increasing the fractional exponent attached to the post count modifier to .85 or so should do the trick, but run through some tests until you get it right), and make more NPC freedom official policy, encouraging the use of NPCs over the creation of so many extra accounts (while still allowing players to do so if they wish). All together, this will result in more freedom, and fewer potential new members being turned away because of the restrictions (and as the guy who used to recruit A TON, I know first-hand how many people didn’t join for that exact reason).

I support this as long as easing character restrictions is taken care of reasonably. To be honest, I'm fearful that restrictions are going to be cut back too much. There was this system on GUA called the Battle Arena. It sucked. I don't want Althanas to turn into it.


2.) Get rid of the Bazaar and GP entirely, replacing it with a Wealth or Resources character Attribute. This would actually be simpler than one might think. The player can assign a rating, from “Impoverished” (roughly equivalent to being Below Average in strength in terms of character ability limits) to “Wealthy” (valued similarly to Above Average strength), to “Very Wealthy” and so on. Since the registration system is somewhat arbitrary (and always will be, and that’s not necessarily always a problem), these are enough guidelines to implement it.

If enough people support this 'wealth' trait, then go ahead and do it. I'd like to see GP and the Bazaar become OOC systems, so the two wouldn't overlap.


3.) Award EXP to members who write reviews in the Workshop, perhaps thirty per post in the thread, with some modifier for the reviewer’s level (shouldn’t be hard to figure the appropriate modifier out), plus bonuses for particularly well-written and detailed critiques. Have a mod assigned to keeping an eye on things in the Workshop, both looking for fluffed-up, useless critiques that abuse the system and responding to any complaints.


I think I've already covered what I think of this. I'd rather see the GP system overhauled, rather than scrapped. It has a lot of potential.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I really think that making GP an OOC reward is an easier transition to make. Wealth can be part of the system if necessary. People can still request monetary rewards at the end of a quest or even request items that they would buy. There's still a system in place to acquire things, even if we don't do wealth.

I have a question real quick for everyone. What do we do with current GP? I don't think people want to be robbed. At the same time, I don't think we want to give them the increased value GP that we're proposing. It would be too much of a windfall.

This transition is the biggest question in my mind atm. I feel like someone is going to be irritated no matter what we do and so that's unfortunately an incentive for the administration to do nothing.

[Atzar]

I really think that making GP an OOC reward is an easier transition to make. Wealth can be part of the system if necessary. People can still request monetary rewards at the end of a quest or even request items that they would buy. There's still a system in place to acquire things, even if we don't do wealth.

I have a question real quick for everyone. What do we do with current GP? I don't think people want to be robbed. At the same time, I don't think we want to give them the increased value GP that we're proposing. It would be too much of a windfall.

This transition is the biggest question in my mind atm. I feel like someone is going to be irritated no matter what we do and so that's unfortunately an incentive for the administration to do nothing.

It's been bothering me as well, and I haven't been able to think of a decent solution yet.

Speaking of the administration, can we get some staff input? Us plebs think we have some good ideas, and we'd love some feedback from the people who can make it happen.

[Duffy]

All I'll say at this point is Scara Brae is intended to be a test for the broadening of gold piece usage/things to spend it on.

If I can get the economy working there for GP, we could consider making it Althanas wide - but that is allot to tackle at once, hence it being a trial run.

[Atzar]

All I'll say at this point is Scara Brae is intended to be a test for the broadening of gold spendable.

If I can get the economy working there for GP, we could consider making Althanas wide - but that is allot to tackle at once, hence it being a trial run.

Is this way you're resisting all of the changes that are being talked about in this thread? Is it going to interfere with the changes you're making to Scara Brae?

[Duffy]

No, not at all. Scara Brae will operate within the constraints of Althanas but be independent in it's function, so to speak. I am all for change, but it is not something so easy to tackle as 'take on board = fix.'

We can only change so much at once, and from the last post; that is just a snippet of the things being done and done recently.

GP will gain more meaning in Scara Brae and it's faction conflicts, that is for certain; whilst this creates problems of it's own in terms of 'but I don't wanna go to Scara Brae, what do I do with GP?' if it functions properly once established, we can use it as a framework for a forum wide change to the GP system. If Max, Task, Zook or Amaril have anything in mind for the Bazaar present, I am not aware of it, beyond knowing that it is something that crops up and is being discussed.

Our primary concern at present is judging, Scara Brae/Underwood reformation and easing and tidying up the information available for character creation, as previously discussed. As well as the workshop, too.

[Visla Eraclaire]

This isn't the sort of change that makes a lot of sense to incorporate on a continent by continent basis. I see no reason it should have anything to do with Scara Brae. The whole proposal is to make GP an OOC construct. Shoehorning it into a series of IC events seems ill-advised.

[Atzar]

No, not at all. Scara Brae will operate within the constraints of Althanas but be independent in it's function, so to speak. I am all for change, but it is not something so easy to tackle as 'take on board = fix.'

We can only change so much at once, and from the last post; that is just a snippet of the things being done and done recently.

GP will gain more meaning in Scara Brae and it's faction conflicts, that is for certain; whilst this creates problems of it's own in terms of 'but I don't wanna go to Scara Brae, what do I do with GP?' if it functions properly once established, we can use it as a framework for a forum wide change to the GP system. If Max, Task, Zook or Amaril have anything in mind for the Bazaar present, I am not aware of it, beyond knowing that it is something that crops up and is being discussed.

Our primary concern at present is judging, Scara Brae/Underwood reformation and easing and tidying up the information available for character creation, as previously discussed. As well as the workshop, too.

See, I do think it would be quick to implement though. If we reached a couple of general agreements in this thread, I think details could be hammered out quickly and it could be implemented before the weekend is out. I know; I've done it before.

If the workshop is truly a big concern, there have been a couple of good ideas in this thread that would work wonders for it. Incidentally, none of them would be terribly difficult to implement - for the most part, it would consist of the creation of a new thread in the WW that says, in more or less detail, "Contributors to WW threads gain X". We'd have to haggle a bit more to find out exactly what 'X' is, but it's really not much more complicated than that.

[Christoph]

Well, the idea would be to un-nerf GP's usefulness at the same time. I'm not really talking about making things a little cheaper to buy, or making magicky things even magickier. I'm talking about greatly increasing the things available for purchase. I'd like training and OOC benefits to be available, and I wouldn't object to being able to buy EXP either. I just think that getting rid of GP entirely and making EXP the reward for WW participation is taking the easy way out and squandering a very good opportunity.

Why waste so much energy trying to fix a system that is flawed in its very concept when, as you said, getting rid of it entirely would be a far easier solution. In my opinion, any time rules and structures can be cut or trimmed, they should be. The staff has already been working on streamlining the site, and I approve of that. There's no need to go in the opposite direction.


I support this as long as easing character restrictions is taken care of reasonably. To be honest, I'm fearful that restrictions are going to be cut back too much. There was this system on GUA called the Battle Arena. It sucked. I don't want Althanas to turn into it.

That's a fair sentiment. I would open the floor to specific ideas on this matter, IOW: what the new limitations should be. Beyond that, we'd just need a plan to implement it smoothly without alienating players with existing level 0 profiles. If that ends up being too difficult, we could just stick to speeding up character advancement and allowing/encouraging the free use of NPCs -- those two things combined should at least ease the problem.



If enough people support this 'wealth' trait, then go ahead and do it. I'd like to see GP and the Bazaar become OOC systems, so the two wouldn't overlap.

I think I've already covered what I think of this. I'd rather see the GP system overhauled, rather than scrapped. It has a lot of potential.

Well, I don't have the same faith that you do in GP's potential. A.) It seems like too much effort from the staff that could be spent elsewhere. B.) I know that an OOC GP reward (or an award in the current GP) wouldn't encourage me to critique threads in the Workshop. I can't be the only one. Well, I suppose I COULD be, but it seems unlikely.

Perhaps there's a compromise. Let the reviewers choose between EXP and GP; that way it would appeal to the maximum number of members.

[Atzar]

Why waste so much energy trying to fix a system that is flawed in its very concept when, as you said, getting rid of it entirely would be a far easier solution. In my opinion, any time rules and structures can be cut or trimmed, they should be. The staff has already been working on streamlining the site, and I approve of that. There's no need to go in the opposite direction.

Well, I don't have the same faith that you do in GP's potential. A.) It seems like too much effort from the staff that could be spent elsewhere. B.) I know that an OOC GP reward (or an award in the current GP) wouldn't encourage me to critique threads in the Workshop. I can't be the only one. Well, I suppose I COULD be, but it seems unlikely.

Perhaps there's a compromise. Let the reviewers choose between EXP and GP; that way it would appeal to the maximum number of members.

Not good enough. GP as it stands now isn't useful, so that wouldn't be worthwhile - nobody would take the GP. GP would have to be given value before such an idea would work, but then we're back at the concept which you think would take too much work to be worth doing. By the way, I've already said that I would like EXP to be one of the optional uses - I'd like the option to convert GP into EXP if I wish.

Honestly, I don't think the whole concept would take all that much work. It consists of brainstorming ideas - we've already had a good start on that in this thread - and then setting prices. Throw in some haggling on said prices and you have yourself a system that's ready for a trial by fire.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Christoph, you have to realize that being an idealist isn't going to get anything done. Look at the visceral reaction Duffy has against free-form RPing, even when that isn't the suggestion. Any step in that direction gets blackballed. It's happened before and it'll happen again.

The staff loves structure, possibly because without structure they don't have anything to do. Using GP as an OOC reward and EXP as an IC reward makes good sense and it paves the way for your wealth program if that's what you want.

I don't see why you'd oppose it except on principle, and the forum is way too far gone for people to hold things up on principle.

That said, I don't think the GP fix is as simple as Atzar suggests. Setting prices will be complicated. The current pricing system is absurdly complicated and ridiculous. Re-doing it seems like it might be just as difficult, OR it would leave so much vagueness and discretion and it ends up like another RoG.

I think we both need to come together and this all needs to fit with the RoG streamlining if any of that is happening.

I really think that the best system, if we really had all the pieces in motion and could genuinely fix things, is to stop distinguishing between abilities and items. Both grant a character power. Drawing a line between them is one of the big reasons that GP is useless. Power is easier to get with EXP than with GP to buy items. Let equipment serve as part of a character's level. Let the ability to project a bullet with your mind be commensurate with projecting it from a gun.

Let EXP be the singular currency of character progress. Shopping can be another kind of RP. You can have wealth as part of a backstory or as a reward from a quest, but ultimately the purchased items would be granted the same way as any other character reward, based on writing.

I feel like the idea might be too big to catch on, but it really does solve a lot of problems at once. The only thing I fear is that the administration already has other concepts in mind and will steam forward with them and run this one right over.

[Zook Murnig]

Alright, the statement Duffy made regarding Scara Brae being a testing ground was premature by a long shot. Here's what is being worked on.

The EXP formula is being brought under scrutiny, and we are considering one of two options. The first is to take the current formula and modify it to put emphasis on different aspects on it, or just re-distributing them. The second option is a whole new formula, based less on fractional exponents and algebra, and more on a base experience modified by a percentage, which is given by a chart listing percentages and score ranges.

The Bazaar is also being discussed side-along with GP. Nothing clear has been decided as of yet, but the suggestion of bringing back the Synthesis Shop of Dheathain, with similar other shops for the other continents, as part of the Bazaar was brought up.

And finally, a proposition has been laid upon the table to create a new subforum under this very forum. We Want Your Words. Cheesy though the title may be, it would be a place for moderators who are working on something can post what has been officially decided to get player commentary on it. It would not be meant for people to simply say "no, I don't like this, don't do it." Serious reasons and discussion would be a must. This, too, is meeting with some debate, but we shall see how it goes.

Any comments or concerns would be greatly appreciated.

[Visla Eraclaire]

It would not be meant for people to simply say "no, I don't like this, don't do it." Serious reasons and discussion would be a must. This, too, is meeting with some debate, but we shall see how it goes.

Any comments or concerns would be greatly appreciated.

Make sure that if you don't want "No, I don't like this, don't do it." that you similarly don't want "Yes, I love this, do it." If your reason is the brevity and lack of discussion.

If your Bazaar discussion isn't going anywhere yet and you're hoping to encourage IC activity with regional-specific places, consider the proposal I made above. Let these places remain as areas to RP the sort of transactions that people used to be forbidden from making due to their lack of gold. Now they could RP getting materials and RP getting an item or RP shopping, negotiating, or engaging in some kind of trade and get rewards the same way characters are granted new abilities from quests. The cap would be based on their level and the items power, just like an ability is evaluated. They could be temp-granted by judges and then reviewed at level.

Stop thinking of items and abilities as different and you realize that you can simplify the system a lot and open up areas of RP that people have been excluded from due to their OOC poverty. Anyone is free to RP to gain a new ability, but new characters can't really RP commercial transactions because they're tethered to their low GP number.

[Zook Murnig]

Make sure that if you don't want "No, I don't like this, don't do it." that you similarly don't want "Yes, I love this, do it." If your reason is the brevity and lack of discussion.

Thank you. This is exactly my point. If we were to implement this idea, we would advise not to simply post that you do or don't like the things we put up there, but post why you do or don't like it. This is to inform us as to how the ideas posted there would be received, and to inform our further changes to said ideas. Bearing this in mind, we as the staff would still have the power to make final decisions regarding the things we post there, but would try to include data we have been given by the players.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Can I make a suggestion that no one be allowed to make pronouncements saying "we the staff" anymore? Seriously guys, if you look at all the "disrespect" you've got to realize you've got an image problem. The fact that half the members are ex-staff (or could be, given the qualifications) and yet the staff, volunteers on a webforum, still act like there's a genuine division between members and staff.

I'm not trying to "disrespect the staff" further. I just think that posting in the staff forum gives people a bunker mentality. You have an italic name. You volunteered to do work. Please leave it at that.

[Christoph]

Not good enough. GP as it stands now isn't useful, so that wouldn't be worthwhile - nobody would take the GP. GP would have to be given value before such an idea would work, but then we're back at the concept which you think would take too much work to be worth doing. By the way, I've already said that I would like EXP to be one of the optional uses - I'd like the option to convert GP into EXP if I wish.

I think you misunderstood me. I meant that we should allow players to choose between GP, as it would exist under your idea (not as it currently exists) and EXP. Converting GP to EXP could work, but it seems like more pointless bureaucracy to me. Energy would be much better spent elsewhere. Just let the reviewers choose the one they want right off.

Again, I would still say that revamping the GP system is not worth the effort. I don't oppose it on principle, as Visla suggests. I oppose it on practicality. Ask yourselves: would it really be worth the staff's time and effort? I would say no.

Visla's suggestion is a cross between mine, only reworded, and the logical conclusion of my proposal. As such, I support it 100%. Keep character's intrinsic abilities linked to their equipment and resources, all in the same pool. If GP absolutely must exist, keep it completely OOC.

I don't think it's too big to catch on. Really, it's simpler and easier than it looks. What would it even require? Get rid of GP, letting characters with large amounts of it convert it into a Wealth rating/trait at their next character update. Perhaps require players to do a mid-level update to participate in the next tournament, if they hadn't gotten adjusted for the new system by that point. It could be accomplished with a single announcement and a little legwork. It wouldn't even be a huge shift for most individual members.

And Atzar and Visla are correct: this is not mutually exclusive to Atzar's grand GP overhaul plan. It isn't mutually inclusive, either. The site could enact Visla's/My proposal at any time, and sort out the GP overhaul whenever. They don't need to come at the same time, though as Visla said, one can lead to the other (in either order, I'd posit).

[Zook Murnig]

Christoph, I have to say, I thought about your proposal for the "Wealth Skill." I've thought about it a lot. And, honestly, I don't think it needs to be "implemented" so much as people who want to play rich characters should write as if their characters are rich, regardless of the little number under their name. The same thing goes for Christoph, and other characters who are meant to be poor.

It has been well established that gold is an OOC reward, and we only call it "gold" because it brings to mind the idea of currency, because that's what it is. It's not in-game currency, no. Not these days. It is, however, the currency that we use to run that aspect the game by -- that is to say the system of buying and selling goods in the Bazaar.

A wealth skill would bear little use, as it only states that your character is wealthy. Woop-de-doo. It's not going to let you buy a set of prevalida sewing needles without earning anything to pay for them with. Nor will it increase your gold rewards. It will sit on your profile looking pretentious, like you're advertising that sex with your character is a "religious experience." That's all.

[Christoph]

Ideally, a Wealth trait -would- be useful.

[Aiko]

Honestly, I don't care about gold as it stands right now anymore at all. Having gained all the basic equipment I need, I have utterly no further purpose for it, and cannot see any reason I would need anymore. If it could be turned into XP, or used to purchase Custom User Titles, than that would be great, and I would. However, all future pieces of equipment I get for all my characters, have stories attached to them, and need to be gotten via quests.

Not even a wealth trait would help me all that much, if at all. So I guess really, I'm just hoping that gold will find a way to be useful to me, hence supporting the XP/Custom user titles idea.

[Zook Murnig]

On that note, I would like to bring up that certain members have requested, as part of their spoils, to not receive gold. Instead, they wanted it to be converted directly to XP. I know of a couple cases where it was allowed, but if someone knows of a case where it was not, please correct me.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Find what formula they've been using. Convert all existing GP based on that.

You just solved our "what do we do with the GP people have if we change things" problem.

It actually works out fairly well, gives a small bonus to most and a decent reward to those who have hoarded gold. Maybe even Godhand would shut up if offered something he loves more the GP... exp.

[Zook Murnig]

However, there's a problem with that. As it stands, there is no support in the mod forum for dropping GP. Just fixing the Bazaar, which I think is a really good thing. We're starting to discuss alternative Bazaar options, like the aforementioned Synthesis Shop. And yes, it would work much the way the old one did. However, there may be a small fee depending on how much stuff you want to go digging around for in your threads.

On that topic, how would you all feel about having a Synth Shop sort of thing for each region? That is to say, for example, Raiaera could have a bardic enchantment area, where you would earn your enchantment through deeds for the nation assigned according to what you're asking for.

Basically, the idea I'm proposing is to have a quest-based option, like the Synthesis Shop, where you can get interesting effects for less, or no, gold. You would still need to provide the necessary items to be enchanted, however, except in specific cases where what's being offered are the base items themselves. Nothing on that until more is discussed. As of yet, these are just ideas, and the last one moreso than the others.

[Visla Eraclaire]

There isn't enough activity in the single bazaar you have now. What makes people think that this complicated inelegant system is a good idea?

Simply saying "there's no mod support for X" is insufficient justification for me. You've seen the arguments in favor of it. Come and make some arguments against it and some justifications for these synth shops and why they can't simply exists as a quest method for gaining items.

If you want the bazaar to work and GP to be revitalized you're going to have to start giving more of it away or completely rework prices. I've run the bazaar before, the pricing makes no sense and pricing for magical items basically has no framework whatsoever. The teirs of metal are really lackluster because, as people have pointed out time and again, it's not as if the higher teir cuts through a lower one like a hot knife through butter, it's just harder. You still need enough force behind it and the force necessary to destroy metal is pretty high. Ultimately, having a higher teir item only helps in direct pvp where you're clashing and even then the most you'll hope for is the other guy saying you chipped his armor. Characters are so based on abilities now that equipment has fallen behind.

Why? Because abilities are easy to get and far more interesting than a harder sword. Make equipment work like abilities and people will start wielding all manner of interesting things.

Why are you guys so wed to the old system? You say it would be a good thing, but rather than putting all the work into fixing a broken system you could introduce a much more elegant one which would help solve several other problems that have been mentioned before. Treating equipment the same as abilities and letting characters gain it through advancement, just balancing it like everything else makes the most sense.


If you want to create quest hubs around these synth shops, go right ahead. Develop more places to do interesting RP, but don't junction that to GP. There's no reason that need be the case, only shortsightedness and stubbornness.

[Zook Murnig]

With regard to fixing the pricing scheme, it's being worked on. I can't really say much more than that, because first of all it's not my area and it's not my place to speak specifically regarding that. Second of all, the specifics of it haven't been worked out yet. We're still hammering out ideas at the moment. There was a flash of new threads on the mod forum in the past couple of days, and some have grown and matured faster than others. Unfortunately, this was one of the slower ones, as it is largely dependent on the other things being discussed.

With regard to attaching these hubs to the Bazaar (not GP, as you stated), it provides a framework for enchantment that does not go through the expensive GP system so reviled with regards to said enchantments in the Bazaar, while encouraging increased activity in the various regions. Further, sometimes people just don't have an idea for how to obtain a specific item they want in a quest, and these hubs would provide a plot hook. Not every thread, ideally, would be a simple "go get these herbs and those roots." Hell, going back to the original Synthesis Shop, I still have to go fight a metamorphosing dragon to get what I need for my item. Other such dangerous or interesting quests could, and should be given by the hubs.

And keep in mind that these are still in the idea phase, and may not actually come to fruition at the end of the process.

As for providing reasons why there is no support, I have no stake in that argument. I was simply relaying the fact. If someone else would like to explain their position on that, be my guest.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Your obstructionism is beyond words. This is hopeless.

The idea's there. You can leave it if you like. More advocacy will just fall on deaf ears, or blind eyes as the case may be.

[Godhand]

Ugh. I'm so goddamned tired. Don't expect me to be usual peerlessly eloquent self with this one.

I really don't see the problem with the bazaar system. Well, no, I can see it. The prices have stagnated for too long. Back in the day, shit...I remember Andrew 'Pin' Lueni? I think that was his name. So little gold was given out in comparison to now, so back then you could go FAR with even just four hundred gold. Real far. One day this guy somehow managed to get 1000 gold together and wanted to get a sword, and the bazaar mod made it this big deal where he produced a legendary sword of unknown materials that cut through it's own scabbard if jostled.

Shit, I digress. I think about oldthanas a lot, mostly because I seem to be the only one who remembers these stories.

In any case, the market on althanas has always been strange. Always suffering from OOC backlash. Whenever enchantments got too cheap, through Red Hand nonsense or other assorted chicanery, the mods would jump in and raise the prices for magic items to ludicrous amounts as just textbook reactionary bullshit. But then they usually ignored technology, and then those prices dropped until technology got too prevalent and whoop here comes the hurricane, now a revolver costs twenty grand but at least enchanted items are affordable again, and so on etc. for the last eight years. I kind of liked that system. It's highs and lows were purely artificial, but it almost reminded of a real market in how often it crashed or shuddered or otherwise suffered an upheaval that some profiteering douchebag could walk away rich from. The douchebag being me, in case that was unclear.

But I don't just like it because it's been good to me. I like it...Because it's a market. I don't know how to explain it. For all it's faults, for all it's transparent windows spreadsheet calculator.exe nonsense it was still the fucking bazaar, where you could role-play casually and walk away with a stronger character even if it was in a totally trivial area. Shit, you think I NEED any of the shit in my inventory? Fuck no! I just like doing bazaar threads.

As for the 'wealth' trait, shit, I didn't realize that needed to go in your profile. I always played Godhand as moderately affluent even when I only had 200 GP to my name. Seriously, what were the mods going to do? "You gave a big tip to the waitress at the deli! You lose 30 GP!" What, like I landed on a chance space in Monopoly? Think white and get serious.

I'm not just saying this to protect my spot or be an obstructionist cunt or whatever. As a gesture of good faith I could raffle away my gold. I don't need it, I just like having it. No, I don't want it in exp. I haven't made a level update in like a year, anyway.

But moving on because I honestly could not give less of a shit about this argument, let's talk about one I do give one about: Level 0 restrictions.

This shit HAS to stop. All the arguments have already been made in this thread, but I don't think anyone has made the most obvious one and that's

FUCK I'M TIRED

I'm gonna post this and edit it later.

[Atzar]

I think you misunderstood me. I meant that we should allow players to choose between GP, as it would exist under your idea (not as it currently exists) and EXP. Converting GP to EXP could work, but it seems like more pointless bureaucracy to me. Energy would be much better spent elsewhere. Just let the reviewers choose the one they want right off.

That's called 'splitting hairs'. This is the difference between your compromise and my idea, then: "Hey, let's give participants the option to either get useful GP or EXP!" and "Hey, let's give participants useful GP, which can also be spent on EXP!" It's the same thing in different words.

In other news, this thread is starting to get frustrating.

There have been several very solid ideas in this thread that warrant serious consideration, yet I don't really feel like they're actually being noted and discussed except by about three of us - none of whom happen to be mods. All the mods in this thread seem to want to talk about is their own projects, rather than our propositions. I don't mean this in a disrespectful way - I'm sure I'll love whatever you guys come up with as soon as I see it - but I'm not really interested in talking about a project that I won't know anything about until its implementation. Instead, we get conversations that go:

"Hey, we have this cool idea that would potentially fix GP and the Writer's Workshop in one fell swoop! Can we get some mod opinions on it?"

"We're working to fix the Bazaar."

That's nice. It's also sidestepping the actual topic. The extent that the staff is going to in an effort to ignore or deflect things brought up in this thread is getting ridiculous. I've made suggestions. Visla's made suggestions. Christoph's made suggestions. Requiem of Insanity's made suggestions. And with the exception of Amaril Torrun awhile ago, no moderator has really made much of an effort to come in here and offer support or criticism. Are you unwilling to use an idea that isn't your own? Are you afraid that the ideas will conflict with your own ideas that you're working on behind the scenes? Are you afraid of presenting a divided front by having staff members come down on opposite sides of the fence? What's the issue? We've been calling for staff input for much of the thread and, so far, haven't really received much.

[Zook Murnig]

I apologize that I was not clear, Atzar. What is going on is that we are, rather than fixing GP, working on the Bazaar. I agree that your suggestion for the Workshop in GP was a good one, and it has been duly noted and resuggested in the mod forum for those in there who are not reading this thread post by post. And we are working on the Workshop as well. You could say we're working double-time on that, since we need final decisions for rewards sooner than later. We have a thread in there that will be finished getting commentary very soon. It would be nice to be able to give out rewards as soon as it's finished, rather than as soon as we're finished making them up.

I did not intend to dance around your question. I just missed it in answering another.

[Visla Eraclaire]

You weren't unclear; you were unhelpful.

No one misunderstood what you were saying. You're saying that people on the mod forum are working on their pet projects and ignoring the fact that there could be a better way forward. This thread has been "duly noted" and apparently all it is due is one mod coming and telling us that other mods are working on other things.

If you think this is a good idea, why not do it? It isn't that complicated. Staff always act like Althanas is a complicated bureaucracy when it's really very simple. It just has the appearance of complexity so that ideas can be waved off.

Thank goodness I shan't have to deal with it anymore once I get Max to comply with my request.

[Atzar]

I apologize that I was not clear, Atzar. What is going on is that we are, rather than fixing GP, working on the Bazaar. I agree that your suggestion for the Workshop in GP was a good one, and it has been duly noted and resuggested in the mod forum for those in there who are not reading this thread post by post. And we are working on the Workshop as well. You could say we're working double-time on that, since we need final decisions for rewards sooner than later. We have a thread in there that will be finished getting commentary very soon. It would be nice to be able to give out rewards as soon as it's finished, rather than as soon as we're finished making them up.

I did not intend to dance around your question. I just missed it in answering another.

I appreciate the response. I wish you guys would discuss out here where I could defend my idea, though.

[Godhand]

Back. Still a little dazed; I must be coming down with something. But the show must go on, I guess.

This bazaar shit...The synthesis shop not only never appealed to me, I couldn't figure out for the life of me who it did appeal to. Some people did a couple of synthesis threads, hell, even someone I respect did one. I just couldn't and can't figure out why. If you're already writing an exhausting fucking thread just to get one third of the materials you need, shit, why don't you just go ahead and quest for the finished item and save yourself a huge pain in the ass? You might miss out on the little irrelevant doodads they make out of the leftovers, but is that what you were really working for anyway?

The regional specialization bazaar system always interested me, even if I couldn't find the energy back then to write two quests in a region to get access to their bazaar. Some metals were cheaper, others more expensive and it was the same with magic and technology. Raiaera had cheap enchantments. Kachuk had relatively cheap high level metals. I believe Alerar had cheaper guns.

It was unfeasible even in the site's prime where you could afford to do these kinds of experiments and they could conceivably get off the ground due to the fact that even if it only appealed to ten percent of the site, there were enough people that ten percent site interest was worth it and made shit vibrant. Anyway, even then people just didn't wanna fuckin' do it. No one wanted to do two quests just for the right to buy a high tier sword at a discount.

For fuck's sake, I can't believe I went off on an unrelated tangent again. Back to what's killing althanas: Level zero restrictions.

The argument has been made before in this thread and I hate repeating myself or others so I'll just add to it instead of reproducing it. Back when I was new to althanas and the dinosaurs roamed the earth, buckling under the continued predations of the mighty T-Rex, new characters were treated differently. We weren't allowed to be gods but damnit, we were at least allowed to be capable. Competent. Versatile. There was none of this above average/below average bullshit; that shit started with Letho and I hate that it became the norm. Mostly I think we were versatile because we weren't forced to outline every single fucking thing we could do that had any sort of RP relevance. I write Godhand as a talented piano player despite the fact that it's not in his profile and haven't once been busted scorewise for it, because most of the judges aren't huge fucking morons. Lockpicking? I will throw a fucking fit if I ever see anyone give a newbie shit about how they can't be an expert at it at level zero.

I'm serious; you will not hear the fucking end of it from me. I will nag and bitch and seethe and just make a nuisance of myself until you're forced to address it publicly. I'm not like Visla that can just quit and focus on his other hobbies; I am an obsessive compulsive with nothing else to do. You will not outlast me.

If it's explained adequately in their history and it makes sense, I want SERIOUS fucking leeway given to level zeros. We don't have the member base to be elitist assholes anymore. That shit was fine when you could leave for a day and come back to three hundred new posts but not now. I know some of the mods think this is a non-issue since hey, most people give in anyway right? Just look at the number of approved profiles versus unapproved ones. But it's not that fucking simple. People get frustrated when they're forced to drastically gimp their character. They may acquiesce but usually never post after getting approved and if they do, they get fed up with their level zero nothing with zero combat skills and zero role-play traits and fucking LEAVE. And why shouldn't they? "Oh you can improve your character when you level." Too bad no one wants to play a mewling fucking newborn for four threads or more just to play the moderately able adventurer they wanted.

I think the reason this thread isn't swamped with this sort of sentiment is that those members have come and gone and it fucking KILLS ME that they're probably not coming back. The oldbies are all paranoid micro-dicked fucks that refuse to give any sort of ground to newbies for fear of losing their e-power, the fucking idiots. To tell you the truth I'm shocked I'm not one of those obstructionist old-guards. I guess it's because I see althanas choking and dying and the site itself is more important to me than my own e-peen.

I'm going to bottom line it now.

I want new characters given far more leeway with non-combat skills. Far, far more. If someone's history is good enough, I wouldn't mind a non-combat skill being master level. Even if it's not good enough, I want the judge reading to be charitable with his discretion.

I want more leeway for combat skills, too. If some guy makes his only skill expert level swordsmanship, not only do I want to see that approved but I want bonus exp given to the person on general principle.

Don't force people to exhaustively list the effects of whatever level zero fireball they can cast. If they're forced to write out themselves how pathetic and piddly the thing is, they'll probably get discouraged. Just suggest a general power level and if need be let them know they'll get knocked for powergaming.

I don't EVER want to see a mod be short with a new member. Fucking EVER. And I don't just mean short as in rude. I also mean it as curt. Explain to them AFFABLY why things are they way they are, even if they're insolent. They'll get a feel for the site and probably be too enamored to leave as long as you're NICE. Always. Always be nice; I can't fucking stress this enough. Most people do this but someone sometimes has a bad day, doesn't like how the newbie is talking to them, whatever: BE NICE. And yes, I realize the irony in me being the one to say this. Fuck off.

Lastly, I know some of you took this post as a personal attack. Some mods do that; anything straight-up is a criticism of their modding skills. But don't fucking do that. Don't ignore this shit just because it's me saying it. My goal isn't to drag you down or show you up; I honestly don't give a fuck about that. I just want to see Althanas revived. I want to leave for a day and come back to three hundred new posts again, REAL posts by REAL members and not just OOC bickering and mods announcing a new region overhaul for the fifth time.

What's it gonna take? I'll fucking do this myself. I'll apply for RoG duty. You don't even have to mod me or give me access to the mod forum; just fucking deputize and I'll do all of this. I love Althanas, and I want to see it back to it's former glory.

[Jasmine]

For once Godhand, I agree with you 110%. He's right. No one comes to a site wanting to play a weakling that can barely manage on their own. Loosen the restrictions and let people be at least competent again.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I'm not like Visla that can just quit and focus on his other hobbies; I am an obsessive compulsive with nothing else to do. You will not outlast me.

It's true. His hobbies include posting on Althanas and harassing me about what he just posted on Althanas.

[Christoph]

It's true. His hobbies include posting on Althanas and harassing me about what he just posted on Althanas.

I remember when I used to be like that.

Anyway, I agree with Godhand completely. And that's when I knew the world was going to end.

But seriously. The staff should listen to him (and others), just this once. When it's just me and/or Visla, you guys can rationalize ignoring us by saying to yourselves, "Oh, they're just troublemakers who don't roleplay here much/at all anyway", as though that somehow renders our opinions void (which is a logically fallacious thought process, mind you). When it's just Godhand, you can rationalize ignoring him because, well, he's -Godhand-. But when it's all three, plus other members on top of that? That's quite a portentous occurrence in my estimation. Many of us are ex-staff, or at least veteran members, so it can't be said that we "don't know how things work/what we're talking about." We clearly do.

Thus, I will echo Godhand's crucial question: what will this take? I haven't roledplayed here in ages, because I honestly don't see Althanas as a worthwhile place to write anymore. I would like that to change. I didn't come back here to just to cause drama and dick around. I want Althanas to once again become a place that I'm excited about, a place I'm eager to participate in. You've got members with great ideas who are willing and ready to help out. For god's sake, take advantage of it instead of ignoring or fighting against it.

[Letho]

For once Godhand, I agree with you 110%. He's right. No one comes to a site wanting to play a weakling that can barely manage on their own. Loosen the restrictions and let people be at least competent again.Let me just say that I think this (in)competence of the level zero character is pure bullshit. Let's have a look at a rather average level zero warrior.

He gets a steel sword and probably another weapon to boot. Despite this not being a strictly medieval setting, having a good steel sword still makes this character a step up the ladder from an average joe peasant with a pitchfork. The fact that people act as if everybody and their grandmother have a sword on Althanas is not a glitch in the system, but rather their own mistake.

He gets some sort of armor, most likely a chainmail of some sort or a breastplate with some gauntlets and maybe even leggings if they're smart enough. Again, another thing that about 90% of Althanas population probably doesn't have or cannot afford. Another step up.

He gets to be an average/above average swordsman. Swordsman. No, wait, swordsman. There, maybe people will get it now. Starting as an above average swordsman (or pretty much any proficiency you like) means that, as I believe Zook mentioned before in the midst of all this crap, unlike the general populace of Althanas, you actually know how to use a weapon. In fact, you're pretty good when it comes to wielding it. Meaning, you pretty much can hold your own against a whole lot of shit the world of Althanas can throw at you.

He gets some sort of boost to his attributes. 1.5 times the strength of an average person might not look like a lot, but it's nothing to throw away either. Not only can you hit harder than the other guy, you can wield your sword easier, carry the burden of your armor easier, pack more equipment.

On top of that, our poor incompetent level zero can get away probably with another combat ability or so (keen senses seem to be a favorite) and probably a couple of non-combat skills too.

Now, let's say that that same poor incompetent level zero does his first quest on Althanas and gets himself a horse (which is not all that hard). Well, now you have a mounted swordsman. Add some more armor to him and you pretty much have a knight (not really, but close enough), and those things were like fucking tanks in medieval times. Not too bad for a measly level zero.

I could do this for pretty much any class, but I figure people get the gist. Vast majority of Althanas populace are not mercs, are not trained to kill you, cannot conjure a fireball from thin air and most likely cannot even pick the simplest of lockpicks. So the problem isn't in the competence of the characters, but rather the competence of the people who write them and the setting they forge themselves. You can play a mewling pup and bitch about how shitty he is at everything he does or you can make an effort to play it more realistically. The problem is probably the fact that people always look at their characters in comparison with other peoples characters. And then they seem average or weak. But keep in mind that most (if not all) characters are protagonists of their own stories and as such are every bit as special as you.

[Duffy]

Consider average to mean 'average' hero, and not 'average' citizen, and you're on the right track.

[Saxon]

I agree with Godhand. Things should be made easier for newer members to give them more incentive to stay. It'd boost activity and you'd probably get more members who are willing to stay here long term when they have a bit more lee way instead of trying to write to the standard. Level zeroes have the hardest time as a member on this site when they have little lee way in what they can do and older members treat them like shit because they're new. They should be the target audience here when it comes to boosting activity since the overwhelming majority of the Althanian populace are level zeroes. Most of the new folks won't stick around to put up with this bullshit when they can go elsewhere to get what they want with far less hassle. Which they do and will continue to do until a change is made.

I think the problem with this issue stems from a lot of people being full of themselves after hearing from so many people that this site is the best around. If it ain't broke, why fix it, right? Then why is activity at an all time low and thread submissions not quite as high as they once were? Why are there far less new people willing to become regulars here then there were a couple of years ago? Why are there so many people unwilling to stay?

This is a website that prides itself on being a writing community and a game, and in order to keep up with the times you need to be able to sell yourself. But, if any of you are unwilling to bend or accept that fact, then Althanas will go the way of the dinosaurs. Unless of course someone keeps footing the bill to keep this site going past it's expiration date. (See; Now.)

What's the argument for not doing this? Not wanting a more active Althanas? Not try to get members here to stay and become regulars? If you honestly want to stick to putting up the tough front for easing some of the restrictions for level zeroes while you're scrounging for activity and then end up scratching your heads as to why people are leaving in droves, then go for it.

But, in the end, I completely endorse people who want to put their heads in the sand to keep doing it. Maybe you'll suffocate and make way for more rational and reasonable people who are willing to admit what is being done is probably wrong and a change is needed in order to find a fix to Althanas's erosion.


I could do this for pretty much any class, but I figure people get the gist. Vast majority of Althanas populace are not mercs, are not trained to kill you, cannot conjure a fireball from thin air and most likely cannot even pick the simplest of lockpicks. So the problem isn't in the competence of the characters, but rather the competence of the people who write them and the setting they forge themselves. You can play a mewling pup and bitch about how shitty he is at everything he does or you can make an effort to play it more realistically. The problem is probably the fact that people always look at their characters in comparison with other peoples characters. And then they seem average or weak. But keep in mind that most (if not all) characters are protagonists of their own stories and as such are every bit as special as you.

It must be lonely at the top.



I appreciate the response. I wish you guys would discuss out here where I could defend my idea, though.


Get italics.

[Christoph]

Consider average to mean 'average' hero, and not 'average' citizen, and you're on the right track.

That's stupid. What exactly IS an 'average hero'? How do you we, members who have been here for a while, even quantify that, let alone some unassuming newbie?




I could do this for pretty much any class, but I figure people get the gist. Vast majority of Althanas populace are not mercs, are not trained to kill you, cannot conjure a fireball from thin air and most likely cannot even pick the simplest of lockpicks. So the problem isn't in the competence of the characters, but rather the competence of the people who write them and the setting they forge themselves. You can play a mewling pup and bitch about how shitty he is at everything he does or you can make an effort to play it more realistically. The problem is probably the fact that people always look at their characters in comparison with other peoples characters. And then they seem average or weak. But keep in mind that most (if not all) characters are protagonists of their own stories and as such are every bit as special as you.

That's all well and good, and it worked for me when I first joined, but that's only because I really LIKE playing gritty low fantasy, more so than heroic high fantasy. Not everyone holds that preference. Most players will not be enamored by the ability to outclass peasants. Also, it's much easier to play a good fighter at level zero; less so a good sorcerer.

That said, I don't think that anyone is seriously suggesting a radical change in level zero policy, just a minor one that allows for more freedom (and more importantly, the perception of more freedom). And then leg characters advance more quickly. Your top dog position will remain secure. =p

[Zook Murnig]

That's stupid. What exactly IS an 'average hero'? How do you we, members who have been here for a while, even quantify that, let alone some unassuming newbie?

I think Duffy's use of the word "hero" made it a little unclear. What I think he meant, and what I stated earlier in the thread, is "compared to the average professional in that area." Which is to say, again, that an average swordsman would be as good as someone who uses their sword professionally every day, barring adventurers who are represented by the players. I personally don't like the codified "above average/below average/average" stuff myself with regards to magic, as it gets muddier there, but it provides a good rule of thumb at least.

[Duffy]

I think Duffy's use of the word "hero" made it a little unclear. What I think he meant, and what I stated earlier in the thread, is "compared to the average professional in that area." Which is to say, again, that an average swordsman would be as good as someone who uses their sword professionally every day, barring adventurers who are represented by the players. I personally don't like the codified "above average/below average/average" stuff myself with regards to magic, as it gets muddier there, but it provides a good rule of thumb at least.

Spot on.

The issue in my eyes is not with the system, but the way in which it is presented and ultimately, the way in which it is interpreted. Work has been done trying to provide a better clarification for the skill scales, but it is so far removed from nearing anything you might consider presentable, all that needs to be said is awareness has been raised concerning the matter.

Do not take this the wrong way, but there is a great deal of hyperbole being flung about concerning level 0 profiles; if I truly had to, I could easily find 5-6 recent bios that go far beyond the scale and template being referred to as 'level 0's', and all of them truly different in their origins, conceptions, and use in combat and out.

Raise player awareness, clarify the levels more in relation not to a citizen of Althanas scale, but to a player scale (hero, villain, random with sword, whatever you class it is) and we can easily rectify your concern (we as a plural over view, before you all get picky) and hopefully, ensnare those beautiful newcomers for a little bit longer.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I think if the staff spent a fraction of the time they do denying that there is a problem either working on the proposed solutions, or at the very least getting out of the way and working on whatever pet projects they have, the board would be in a vastly improved state by now.

If the proponents of change here didn't have to spent their time responding to non sequiturs and thoughtless rejection, they could have already put together a working system. Instead, that will never get done as long as staff wallows in obeisance to an old system.

Did it ever occur to the staff that maybe even something you don't view as a problem is viewed as one by the members, and by people who could become or remain active members? After all, your job isn't to pleasure yourselves, but to provide for the welfare of the board. Instead of flatly denying things, why not weigh the pros and cons. The worst that can happen is slight power creep. What grievous harm do you imagine resulting from that? Obviously something so horrific that it cannot even be discussed.

[Saxon]

I think Duffy's use of the word "hero" made it a little unclear. What I think he meant, and what I stated earlier in the thread, is "compared to the average professional in that area." Which is to say, again, that an average swordsman would be as good as someone who uses their sword professionally every day, barring adventurers who are represented by the players. I personally don't like the codified "above average/below average/average" stuff myself with regards to magic, as it gets muddier there, but it provides a good rule of thumb at least.


Spot on.

The issue in my eyes is not with the system, but the way in which it is presented and ultimately, the way in which it is interpreted. Work has been done trying to provide a better clarification for the skill scales, but it is so far removed from nearing anything you might consider presentable, all that needs to be said is awareness has been raised concerning the matter.

Do not take this the wrong way, but there is a great deal of hyperbole being flung about concerning level 0 profiles; if I truly had to, I could easily find 5-6 recent bios that go far beyond the scale and template being referred to as 'level 0's', and all of them truly different in their origins, conceptions, and use in combat and out.

Raise player awareness, clarify the levels more in relation not to a citizen of Althanas scale, but to a player scale (hero, villain, random with sword, whatever you class it is) and we can easily rectify your concern (we as a plural over view, before you all get picky) and hopefully, ensnare those beautiful newcomers for a little bit longer.

In retrospect, if I were like this, I wouldn't be able to take good ideas when I heard them and apply them either;

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_gzuK9jsKG-g/StL9a5nED0I/AAAAAAAAILM/fK0_GJIaFMs/s400/headUpAss.jpg


Go team.

[Tshael]

Enough.

I know for a fact that everyone in this thread can discuss ideas and solutions in a calm, civil manner. This discussion is for those ideas, and not to bash the staff. This is the only warning I will be giving, before infractions are handed out. I have no problem with this thread or the subjects being discussed within. Every player has a right to state and debate what they will about the site. However, mudslinging is both useless to your purpose and will not be tolerated. If there are any problems understanding my stance on this, please feel free to send a PM or e-mail me at songs4drowning (at) hotmail (dot) com. I am often on AIM as RestitutionSpork.

Thank you.

As the thread says, Resume.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Maybe if I made my text obnoxiously large people would obey it. Maybe when the staff starts discussing things instead of ignoring them, the thread can resume. They would be necessary for any further progress and so discussions of change turn to questioning their motives and competence, since there can be no forward motion without at least them getting out of the way.

There's really nothing more we can say until they get their heads out of... well, originally I think someone said "the sand" but it seems to have taken a turn of the worse!

If the people who are on staff this week think that thumb twiddling, Duffy's overwrought FQ knockoff, adding vaguely described synth shops, and otherwise staying the course are going to help the site, they deserve to watch this place continue to deteriorate around them.

Unfortunately, the people who want to make it a better place will suffer the same fate if this professional stupidity continues.

You may levy infractions to your heart's content. I am merely speaking the truth while I wait for another staff obstruction to clear the way for me to get off this sinking ship.

[Tshael]

Then perhaps you should start an exodus to this utopia that you deem so easily made. I will not give any opinion as to whether the other staff are handling things correctly, but I know that posting degrading pictures and throwing insults is not going to help you at all. In fact, it only hurts the case of each and every player who would like to work for change by making this thread seem like a way to stir up trouble instead of get things done.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Get Max to hurry along and delete my RP threads and you can be rid of me without pushing half as many buttons.

I don't even know or care what the silly infraction points do.

People in this thread have been posting day after day attempting to make productive change. They're entitled to question the competence of someone who seems determined to ignore that. The greatest insult is how the staff is treating its members, not some silly jpeg or a few cross words.

You yourself wanted to make a real difference and now what do they have you doing? Cleanup duty, standing between them and legitimate criticism. How shameful. This is what they dedicate their manpower toward.

[Saxon]

Then perhaps you should start an exodus to this utopia that you deem so easily made. I will not give any opinion as to whether the other staff are handling things correctly, but I know that posting degrading pictures and throwing insults is not going to help you at all. In fact, it only hurts the case of each and every player who would like to work for change by making this thread seem like a way to stir up trouble instead of get things done.


Getting things done? Let me know how that works out for everybody with another twelve pages of discussion.

Most of these arguments are old and have been brought up time and again for months. Maybe even years. Some of them better articulated then others, but with far less fluff. But, they've yielded the same results. Excuses, practiced ignorance, and no fixes. I'm beginning to wonder how many versions of the same argument you all need to hear before you finally reach the same conclusion.

Maybe the second or third generation of the staff after this one might get it. *fingers crossed*

[Tshael]

Quite a few people on the staff have been flat out avoiding coming in here to see what's going on because of the bashing. If you could have discussed this without degrading these ideas to the fuel which propels petty insults, perhaps there would be more cooperation. I can't speak for anyone else, and I am refraining from this conversation further except in my duties to keep the peace. However, they do say you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Quite a few people on the staff have been flat out avoiding coming in here to see what's going on because of the bashing. If you could have discussed this without degrading these ideas to the fuel which propels petty insults, perhaps there would be more cooperation. I can't speak for anyone else, and I am refraining from this conversation further except in my duties to keep the peace. However, they do say you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I'd say a majority of the thread is actually just ideas being bounced back and forth. Very little of it is insulting to anyone. The only person who gets bashed is Duffy and he's already in the thread, so I can't imagine he's the one being kept out. That was also during the first page or two where he was purposefully trying to derail the topic.

Furthermore, if you're on a public web forum holding a position of authority and you're ignoring a thread because someone in there might have said something vaguely mean about the staff generally, what business do you have keeping your position? People this emotionally fragile cannot survive in society, much less internet forum society. When things are suggested politely and quietly they are ignored. When things are suggested loudly and harsly, they are punished. We've gone back and forth between the two during this thread and we're getting nowhere. What you see now is merely the product of frustration.

You can try to paint the whole thread as harsh as an excuse to ignore it, but if you actually read through it you'd know that wasn't true. I guess it's fortunate that the audience you're defending hasn't read it, so they won't know the difference.



Finally, vinegar gets more flies http://www.xkcd.com/357/

[Zook Murnig]

This thread has served its purpose well in the ways that have been described. It has also been noted several times that we are working with the information we've been given.

However, those who have spoken the most seem to be intent upon refusing to believe that there will be any change. Perhaps the reason most of the staff is not in this thread is because they are in fact busy behind the curtain, putting together something of as much quality as they can muster. Perhaps, also, it is because it has been proven time and again that the most outspoken will not be satisfied with anything said. Instead, we plan to do.

[Tshael]

I stand corrected on the preferences of flies.

But in any case, the purpose of this thread is for those ideas. Perhaps sending PMs to moderators that you feel have the best chance of implementing those ideas will garner the attention that the topic deserves? I can say that flaming and denouncing people will not.

[Visla Eraclaire]

This thread has served its purpose well in the ways that have been described. It has also been noted several times that we are working with the information we've been given.

However, those who have spoken the most seem to be intent upon refusing to believe that there will be any change. Perhaps the reason most of the staff is not in this thread is because they are in fact busy behind the curtain, putting together something of as much quality as they can muster. Perhaps, also, it is because it has been proven time and again that the most outspoken will not be satisfied with anything said. Instead, we plan to do.

I'm sorry. I'm not going to stop suggesting things because someone somewhere might be doing what I'm suggesting and not telling me about it.

That's one of the most feeble arguments I've ever heard.

You've told us what they're doing behind the curtain and it's counterproductive to what we're suggesting. We've seen staff come in and tell us that what we're talking about isn't a problem and that it doesn't need to be fixed.

What about this suggests to you that things are getting done? I'd be more justified in believing that Odin was going to descend from Asgard and, hearing the wise counsel of Mimir's severed head, would solve all problems currently existing on Althanas with Gungnir.

Everyone on the site knows this thread exists. Sending PMs is just busywork to keep people from continuing to protest inaction. It is a justified protest and unless you want to tell people they can no longer express dissatisfaction without being silenced, it will continue. Characterizing legitimate dissent as flaming will only confirm the injustice being done.

If the staff wants a win-win, silencing one of the loudest voices of dissent can be accomplished quite simply by removing any trace of my creative output from the forum archives. Max agreed to it before, but I relented at his request. The instant that is done, you'll only be left with everyone else who is upset with how things are being done.

I'm not sure what will satisfy the rest, but I suspect that threats and apologetics to the way things are being done already will not.

If there are people who are genuinely moving forward on the suggestions here and not some nonsense I've already heard about, let them come forward themselves. Don't let Zook sit here and speak about you as theoretical people.

[Tshael]

There has been plenty of legitimate dissent in this thread that I have not given infractions for. There is a line between protest and flaming. This thread is subject to my interpretation of that line. If one person continues to cross the line, I will hand out infractions, as meaningless as they may be to you. If I feel as if the entirety of the thread has crossed that line, I will close it. Call it censorship and the repression of freedom if you will, but those are the facts.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Who is even in charge of what anymore? The staff operates behind an iron curtain, which only serves to enhance distrust. Even within the staff I don't think there is a genuine understanding of who is in charge of what. There was supposed to be a reorganization, but all it seems to have amounted to is hiring Duffy to act like Task, having Task smoulder in the background, and then hiring talented people to do trivial work.

Furthermore, if anyone else on staff has the ability to delete threads in the Crystal Ball, look at the threads linked in my profile. Other than the two that are not solos, dispose of them and you can be rid of this awful Visla character! Tempting offer, eh?

[Zook Murnig]

Realm of Greeting is worked by Tshael, Taskmienster, and Letho.

Regions are worked by Slavegirl and Duffy, with help from the staff in general.

Judging is headed by myself, and done as well by Taskmienster, Amaril, and Lorenor.

Bazaar is worked by Tshael and Taskmienster.

Features are worked by Logan.

Coding is largely worked by Dirks, with assistance as necessary from various staff members.

Hiring is done by Dirks and Taskmienster.

OOC is Tshael's domain.

[Visla Eraclaire]

So the people who could fix the lvl 0 issue are someone who cannot express an opinion because of her dreadful assignment, someone who has said nothing, and someone who has actively opposed the idea.

The GP situation is similarly situated except minus Letho.

Do you see why I find the idea that these things are being worked on less than promising?

[Requiem of Insanity]

*Stumbles back in*

There is really a good reason as to why a lot of the members have just stopped caring. I'm going with Atzar's words, though I will not dig them up and quote them,

"This thread is getting frustrating."

Now to spin off those words with my own.

"This site is getting frustrating."

16 pages of pure mindless droll. Like diamonds in the rough some members have came in, dropped their opinions, were willing to discuss it, AND NOT A SINGLE DAMN THING WAS DONE ABOUT IT. It's like the staff picked up these diamonds, polished them up, and then gently placed them back on the turd heap. (I will go ahead and admit that Taskmeinster did contact me and discussed some ideas together.)

We brought up GP, got relatively 2 pages worth of discussion going, and then the staff comes in talking about...Scara Brae? What the FUCK does that have to do with anything? You bring us solutions to problems NOBODY gives a flying rats ass about in this thread. Letho at least came in, talked about one of the issues, and defended his point.

It's like when the members get a good idea going, you run into your holes, discuss it, and while you discuss it you drop us something else to talk about instead of coming out in the open to discuss it.

Let me give you all a little hint...THERE IS NO FUCKING MOD UNITY. It doesn't exist. So stop pretending it does and have the staff come out and join the debates. Stop going behind the curtain because frankly it's pissing us all off to have our ideas being discredited because we can't go into the VIP lounge and defend them properly.

So maybe this thread just needs a little direction, let's just all stop: Clean up the plates, and serve only one portion out at a time instead of this free for all garbage that everyone keeps adding in on.

The hot topics in this thread are GP, Bazaar, and Level 0 restrictions. I say we pick

LEVEL 0 RESTRICTIONS and start there. Of course, this is assuming we can actually do this...you know...follow one path, hammer it out, and then move on...like grown ups.

[Letho]

You know (and by "you" I don't mean anyone specifically, just putting it out there and waiting for the shitstorm from whatever direction), speaking strictly on my own behalf and not the staff in general, I can say that the ideas in this thread have been heard. And heard. And heard. Even in the midst of all the little pokes and prods and cheap shots, even I managed to get some general idea of what's being discussed here, and I'm not the most perceptive guy around. But as with all ideas, whether they come from the members themselves or the staff members, the ultimate decision on their implementation is up to the mods and admins. And this is not because we like to feel like puppet masters or gods, deciding the fate of the little people, making them bow to our will. It's not because we want to make Althanas a place more to our liking. It's not because we have our - and oh how I like this particular jewel - pet projects and fear they might be disrupted by those meddlesome members we must certainly hate by now. It's simply a matter of order.

The staff is there to keep the entire system balanced, and when I say balanced, I don't necessarily mean just the power balance regarding characters (though this rather simple idea of giving more leeway to level zeros would certainly mess that up), but also a balance between the game aspect and the writing aspect, the IC and the OOC, what can or cannot be done due to manpower or whatnot. And they're probably not going to do a better job because two or three people who shout the loudest and write the longest OOC posts, trying desperately to force a change they think would be best over and over again.

Long story short, all your opinions are duly noted. And I'm saying this because I know they are noted due to the discussions being led in the mod forum. Now the mods get to put on their thinking caps, discuss implementation and whatnot, and make that final decision. If you don't like this, this system in which those in charge listen to their members' ideas and then try to implement them (or discard them, for not all ideas are gold regardless of how you feel about them), then - and yes, I'm going to say the bad word nobody likes - leave. Internet is vast enough place and I'm sure you'll find a venue more malleable than Althanas that will suit your needs.

Althanas may be going the way of the dinosaurs, but I'd rather see it go that way then going around stroking everyone's big fat... egos.

But maybe that's just me.

[Amaril Torrun]

This has nothing to do with anyone having too much pride to make changes. Atzar has made good points. Visla has made good points. Heartsblood as made good points. Requiem has made good points. Christoph has made good points. Godhand has made good points. Forgive me for leaving out a few names. Now, just about every staff member has posted in this thread with their points and ideas as well. This thread is over 16 pages, half of which actually contains massive chunks of well thought out ideas and discussion over those ideas. This discussion isn't being ignored. It is the very basis and reason that we are now working to make changes to Althanas. I'm not talking about random changes that don't have to do with this thread. I'm talking about making changes according to this thread. Compiling ideas that have come from this thread. I tried to ask more questions about several proposals in this thread and to involve myself in the discussion, though many of my questions got ignored and it seemed a lot of the discussion was overshadowed by bickering. That's my reason exiting this thread, not a feeling of elitism over or fear of the public forums.

I really hope this post doesn't get run over, with every sentence being quoted and turned upside down. I'm just not cut out for that type of debate.

Though I feel that the mood of this thread has turned to frustration and anger, drained from the potential for more positive insights, I'm still interested in what anyone has to say. PMing me will probably be the best way, since this beast has gotten quite difficult to sift through.

EDIT: I'm still reading this thread, since there are still some important things posted between the bickering about staff members being self absorbed/ unwilling to adapt to Althanas' changing needs. Don't take this post as me dismissing this whole thread as an outlet to complain in futility.

[Godhand]

Let me just say that I think this (in)competence of the level zero character is pure bullshit. Let's have a look at a rather average level zero warrior.

This ought to be good.


He gets a steel sword and probably another weapon to boot. Despite this not being a strictly medieval setting, having a good steel sword still makes this character a step up the ladder from an average joe peasant with a pitchfork.

Then it's too fucking bad nobody is fighting peasants, huh? That's a compelling story, isn't it? Hey everybody, the evil peasant overlord has taken over the land! Can ye best his mighty pitchfork of darkness and save the stablegirl of purity!? FORSOOOOOOOOOOOTH!


The fact that people act as if everybody and their grandmother have a sword on Althanas is not a glitch in the system, but rather their own mistake.

Yeah, what are they thinking? It's not like althanas doesn't have more career adventurers per capita than people, so why aren't they judging their character's combat worth against a mud-farmer's rheumatic grandmother?


He gets some sort of armor, most likely a chainmail of some sort or a breastplate with some gauntlets and maybe even leggings if they're smart enough.

Oh look I guess you have to play a vanilla knight or you're shit out of luck, herpy derpy doo. And if I want to play a barbarian who's only armor is a loincloth and naturally tough skin? IT CAN ONLY BE AS TOUGH AS LEATHER THAT'S A SKILL YOU'VE FILLED YOUR ALLOTMENT SEE YOU AT LEVEL ONE!


Again, another thing that about 90% of Althanas population probably doesn't have or cannot afford. Another step up.

So Joe Peasant gets screwed again, huh? Whoah can this injustice stand?


He gets to be an average/above average swordsman. Swordsman. No, wait, swordsman. There, maybe people will get it now.

Ooh, the claws come out! Too bad the cat has Down's. What is the matter with you? Are you so stuck up your own ass up there at level twelve that this shit honestly seems like it'd be clear to a new member to you? "Just use common sense! Now if you'll excuse me I got to go Super Saiyan and punch down a castle! Don't powergame, though!"


Starting as an above average swordsman (or pretty much any proficiency you like) means that, as I believe Zook mentioned before in the midst of all this crap, unlike the general populace of Althanas, you actually know how to use a weapon.

AGAIN with this shit. The "general population of althanas"? What the fuck does that even mean? Generic NPC Draconians are way above a level zero in overall power. So is any random Corone city guard. This is not fucking World of Warcraft. You shouldn't have to bop sewer rats for five threads before moving on to people.

Also you know what would be great? If this "average when compared to other swordsmen" stuff was spelled out anywhere in the Realm of Greeting! IN IT'S OWN POST! IN BIG RED FUCKING LETTERS!


In fact, you're pretty good when it comes to wielding it. Meaning, you pretty much can hold your own against a whole lot of shit the world of Althanas can throw at you.

Yeah, man. Rats. Cows. Even poorly equipped PEASANTS, as long as it's one at a time! You're just a...You're just a powerhouse is what you are.


He gets some sort of boost to his attributes. 1.5 times the strength of an average person might not look like a lot, but it's nothing to throw away either. Not only can you hit harder than the other guy, you can wield your sword easier, carry the burden of your armor easier, pack more equipment.

Are you fucking serious or are you trying to see how much you can piss me off before I say something that gets me banned? When was the last time this was EVER an issue!?


On top of that, our poor incompetent level zero can get away probably with another combat ability or so (keen senses seem to be a favorite)

Keen senses!? Holly golly gee wow FUCK! Don't be too generous with those level zeroes, now! Joe Fuckface Hypothetical is shaping up to give Godhand a run for his money!


and probably a couple of non-combat skills too.

Awful magnanimous of you to allow those level zero peons some purely role-playing traits. Sir your generosity rivals that of the legendary Charlemagne.


Now, let's say that that same poor incompetent level zero does his first quest on Althanas and gets himself a horse (which is not all that hard). Well, now you have a mounted swordsman. Add some more armor to him and you pretty much have a knight

Not only that, but he can quest for another point five increase to his strength! And again for his speed! And then another quest to double that! And then another to quadruple that! Now he's level zero and HE TOTALLY BROKE THE SYSTEM OH DO YOU SEE WHAT YOU DID IN ALLOWING THEM LEEWAY GODHAND, YOU BROKE THE SYSTEM FOR SHAME FOR SHAAAAME!


(not really, but close enough),

Except not really, but whatever, you seem to think you're on a roll so let's just go with it.


and those things were like fucking tanks in medieval times. Not too bad for a measly level zero.

Gee it sure would be something if we were only playing in medieval times instead of medieval steampunk fantasy times. Raiaera has magic, Alerar has guns, Corone has enchantments, and a vanilla knight isn't jack fucking shit.


I could do this for pretty much any class, but I figure people get the gist. Vast majority of Althanas populace are not mercs, are not trained to kill you, cannot conjure a fireball from thin air and most likely cannot even pick the simplest of lockpicks. So the problem isn't in the competence of the characters, but rather the competence of the people who write them and the setting they forge themselves.

You hear that, Althanas!? It's YOUR fault! You were trying to make your character strong and that's not allowed! Make EVERYONE ELSE shitty instead! Way to get some fresh air by smashing open the window, genius.


You can play a mewling pup and bitch about how shitty he is at everything he does or you can make an effort to play it more realistically.

Realistic fantasy, you say? My word sir you seem to have invented a new genre! Let us make a new site that features it as it's theme post haste, for it CERTAINLY ISN'T ALTHANAS.


You know (and by "you" I don't mean anyone specifically, just putting it out there and waiting for the shitstorm from whatever direction), speaking strictly on my own behalf and not the staff in general, I can say that the ideas in this thread have been heard. And heard. And heard. Even in the midst of all the little pokes and prods and cheap shots, even I managed to get some general idea of what's being discussed here, and I'm not the most perceptive guy around. But as with all ideas, whether they come from the members themselves or the staff members, the ultimate decision on their implementation is up to the mods and admins. And this is not because we like to feel like puppet masters or gods, deciding the fate of the little people, making them bow to our will. It's not because we want to make Althanas a place more to our liking. It's not because we have our - and oh how I like this particular jewel - pet projects and fear they might be disrupted by those meddlesome members we must certainly hate by now. It's simply a matter of order.

EXTRA EXTRA READ ALL ABOUT IT, DEMOCRACY UNWORKABLE SAYS INTERNET DIPTARD!


The staff is there to keep the entire system balanced, and when I say balanced, I don't necessarily mean just the power balance regarding characters (though this rather simple idea of giving more leeway to level zeros would certainly mess that up),

Yes, Letho. Letting a level zero be an expert lockpicker WOULD mess the delicate power system up. Why, he'd catch up to us oldbies in no time! Give yourself a hand, genius. Right across the fucking mouth.


but also a balance between the game aspect and the writing aspect, the IC and the OOC, what can or cannot be done due to manpower or whatnot. And they're probably not going to do a better job because two or three people who shout the loudest and write the longest OOC posts, trying desperately to force a change they think would be best over and over again.

I'm kind of disappointed that you didn't finish that sentence with it's logical conclusion: "So just sit down, shut up and await our glorious edicts, you unwashed heathens! BOW BEFORE OUR E-PEEN! BOW BEFORE IT!" Also oh noes my post is too long, the point is invalid according to Letho!


Long story short, all your opinions are duly noted. And I'm saying this because I know they are noted due to the discussions being led in the mod forum. Now the mods get to put on their thinking caps, discuss implementation and whatnot, and make that final decision.

Sure would be nice if their eminences would leave the sacred cloister and announce how the debate over who the new pope is is going.


If you don't like this, this system in which those in charge listen to their members' ideas and then try to implement them (or discard them, for not all ideas are gold regardless of how you feel about them),

Here's an idea: making the mod forums debate public and if those with tender assholes insist on being protected, make it anonymous. This isn't like a country where everyone can't have an elaborate say because it's too big. There are FOURTEEN fucking active members online at any time. Contrary to what you seem to believe, CHAOS would not erupt if all fourteen of those members got a real say instead of just the ones with italicized names.


then - and yes, I'm going to say the bad word nobody likes - leave. Internet is vast enough place and I'm sure you'll find a venue more malleable than Althanas that will suit your needs.

Geez, and I here I thought "Love it or leave it" was a purely American thing.


Althanas may be going the way of the dinosaurs, but I'd rather see it go that way then going around stroking everyone's big fat... egos.

This part probably pisses me off more than everything else put together. How is allowing level zeros leeway stroking my big fat ego? How does that help me in ANY WAY!? Here's how I see it: you had it hard your first level and since you got through it alright you think EVERYONE should have it that hard, and if they're worthy they'll stick around. And if althanas dies, hey, that's cool, as long as no one stuck around long enough to threaten Letho ICly with their power.

That is EXACTLY the sort of boneheaded, selfish, stupid fucking thinking that's going to SINK althanas! You should be ASHAMED of yourself! You put your own pathetic e-peen above the wellbeing of althanas and you make me fucking SICK! Get lost! Go to a dungeon! You disgust me!


But maybe that's just me.

God I sure hope so.

[Atzar]

This has nothing to do with anyone having too much pride to make changes. Atzar has made good points. Visla has made good points. Heartsblood as made good points. Requiem has made good points. Christoph has made good points. Godhand has made good points. Forgive me for leaving out a few names. Now, just about every staff member has posted in this thread with their points and ideas as well. This thread is over 16 pages, half of which actually contains massive chunks of well thought out ideas and discussion over those ideas. This discussion isn't being ignored. It is the very basis and reason that we are now working to make changes to Althanas. I'm not talking about random changes that don't have to do with this thread. I'm talking about making changes according to this thread. Compiling ideas that have come from this thread. I tried to ask more questions about several proposals in this thread and to involve myself in the discussion, though many of my questions got ignored and it seemed a lot of the discussion was overshadowed by bickering. That's my reason exiting this thread, not a feeling of elitism over or fear of the public forums.

I really hope this post doesn't get run over, with every sentence being quoted and turned upside down. I'm just not cut out for that type of debate.

Though I feel that the mood of this thread has turned to frustration and anger, drained from the potential for more positive insights, I'm still interested in what anyone has to say. PMing me will probably be the best way, since this beast has gotten quite difficult to sift through.

EDIT: I'm still reading this thread, since there are still some important things posted between the bickering about staff members being self absorbed/ unwilling to adapt to Althanas' changing needs. Don't take this post as me dismissing this whole thread as an outlet to complain in futility.

A couple of things, then, in an effort to get this thread back on the right track.

Can you tell me what, from this thread, has caught hold in the mod forum? I'm interested to see where the staff is falling on these issues - which ideas are receiving a lot of support, which ideas aren't and why. I'd appreciate an answer from anybody in the mod forum on this question.

Next, do you remember what questions you had that were ignored? I must have missed them - like you said, it's not easy to respond to everything in this thread.

[Amaril Torrun]

Give me a few minutes to leave work and type up a response at home. I need to get this damned coffee shop closed up and punch my ticket on an 85 hour workweek.

[Christoph]

To Amaril, Letho, and other Italics Guys.

That all sounds very nice. I want to give the staff the benefit of the doubt and just stay optimistic that whatever they decide on will work out for the best. I really want to, but I can't. Don't take that the wrong way and feel hurt or insulted. I think it's fairly reasonable to be... skeptical of a process taking place behind closed doors, that we lowly members can neither see nor participate in.

I think there needs to be a paradigm shift in how things are decided and implemented here. If some members, especially more experienced ones, want to be involved in making this site better, the staff should work with that (and saying, "apply for the staff, then" isn't enough). Find ways for members to help, and keep us included in the decision-making process. One thing that I'm pretty sure most of the members participating in this thread HAVEN'T felt is really included in the decision-making process in any significant capacity beyond being told, "Thank you for your input." I'm not saying to make it a democracy or anything, of course.

For your convenience, here are the issues I (and others) am hoping to see resolved (or at least eased):

1.) Decent rewards for Workshop participation (I'd like to see the means for resolving battles in the Workshop as well, but that can wait unless someone has a good idea for that already);
2.) Revision or removal of the GP and Bazaar system;
3.) The implementation of Wealth as a character trait and the merging of character equipment and intrinsic attributes when considering profile approval; 4.) Giving a little more leeway to level zero characters and/or allowing for modestly faster advancement.
5.) Removing or vastly reducing thread length minimums.
6.) Fixing the EXP formula to even out the per-post value between long and short threads (note, if done well, this would fix half of No. 4 and prevent abuse that could possibly result from No. 5)

In closing, I'll give you guys the benefit of the doubt. Several members have made their ideas very clear, and many of them are very good proposals. I'll let the staff mull it over and come to a decision. All I ask is that, before etching your edicts in stone and carrying them down from the mountain, you come back to Your Word and present what you've got. Then the members can judge for themselves whether their voices have been heard and heeded or not.

I know how things tend to work back there behind the curtain. I've been there. Try to break that pattern and actually accomplish something in a reasonable time-frame. I know, we all know, that the staff isn't unified on anything save Hitler being bad (and even then, you can't be too sure... =p ). There will be more than one prospective final proposal. That is why it's even more important to get the rest of us involved. Bring the final two or three potential final proposals out here and let us give our input. And actually listen to our input, or at least pretend to listen believably enough to convince us.

[Zook Murnig]

As for the Workshop, that just got finished. Mostly it was a matter of me getting together with the relevant people on AIM to decide on that. The rewards for every meaningful contribution are 25 EXP per level and 50 gold. The top contributor receives an additional 100 gold. The rubric for the Workshop will be a modified version of the current one, with it broken down into four categories. Story for 30 points, Character for 30 points, Writing Style for 30 points, and Wild card for 10 points.

There is an in-depth revision of the Bazaar and other uses for GP taking place at the moment. It's too soon to really say anything more about it than that there are quite a number of options on the table, including allowing people to buy artwork from resident artists on the site and selling items and enchantments between players via a black market.

Nothing has been said regarding the Wealth trait, as we've opted for the increased importance of GP on the forum. If you want to play your character as if they were rich, then go right ahead. There will be numerous ways in which you can earn gold out of character. If you want to play your character as if they were poor, as well, you can go right ahead.

We're currently in debate over how to go about modifying the current EXP formula. As said before, there was a simpler formula on the table, but upon closer scrutiny it did not hold up, giving thousands of EXP to low-scoring threads of insane length. But don't lose hope, we're still working on it!

As well, we're looking at clarifying the existing FAQs for the Realm of Greeting. Nothing more to be said on that just yet.

As for thread length, I think we're all in favor of axing the idea. If it becomes a problem, however, we may have to implement it again, albeit in a much more reasonable form.

[Atzar]

As for the Workshop, that just got finished. Mostly it was a matter of me getting together with the relevant people on AIM to decide on that. The rewards for every meaningful contribution are 25 EXP per level and 50 gold. The top contributor receives an additional 100 gold. The rubric for the Workshop will be a modified version of the current one, with it broken down into four categories. Story for 30 points, Character for 30 points, Writing Style for 30 points, and Wild card for 10 points.

There is an in-depth revision of the Bazaar and other uses for GP taking place at the moment. It's too soon to really say anything more about it than that there are quite a number of options on the table, including allowing people to buy artwork from resident artists on the site and selling items and enchantments between players via a black market.

Nothing has been said regarding the Wealth trait, as we've opted for the increased importance of GP on the forum. If you want to play your character as if they were rich, then go right ahead. There will be numerous ways in which you can earn gold out of character. If you want to play your character as if they were poor, as well, you can go right ahead.

We're currently in debate over how to go about modifying the current EXP formula. As said before, there was a simpler formula on the table, but upon closer scrutiny it did not hold up, giving thousands of EXP to low-scoring threads of insane length. But don't lose hope, we're still working on it!

As well, we're looking at clarifying the existing FAQs for the Realm of Greeting. Nothing more to be said on that just yet.

As for thread length, I think we're all in favor of axing the idea. If it becomes a problem, however, we may have to implement it again, albeit in a much more reasonable form.

Thank you. This is what I was looking for.

This puts me in Christoph's corner - I'm more or less content to sit and let things progress for awhile. If somebody could keep us informed as things happen, I'd appreciate it.

[Godhand]

and selling items and enchantments between players via a black market.

I don't mean to be negative but can't you already do this with the Auction House?

[Zook Murnig]

Yes, you can, but we're not sure if anyone realizes that they can. Mostly because no one does. We're talking about giving more support for that particular use of the Bazaar.

Also, I'll do what I can to see to it you get your big red letters, Godhand. You can pin an A to your chest, even!

[Godhand]

That's cool, I guess. I kind of liked the periodic auction house threads where NPC's auctioned off cool items, you know, strength leaves or vorpal swords and such. It was cool and I would have supported it but back then I just didn't have the cash.

[Aiko]

As for the Workshop, that just got finished. Mostly it was a matter of me getting together with the relevant people on AIM to decide on that. The rewards for every meaningful contribution are 25 EXP per level and 50 gold. The top contributor receives an additional 100 gold. The rubric for the Workshop will be a modified version of the current one, with it broken down into four categories. Story for 30 points, Character for 30 points, Writing Style for 30 points, and Wild card for 10 points.

Does this mean it's in place for my workshop thread, so that all the nice folks who contributed will get something other than my short-lived gratitude?

[Amaril Torrun]

Thanks Christoph! I’m going to try to be as helpful as I can in answering these questions.


1.) Decent rewards for Workshop participation (I'd like to see the means for resolving battles in the Workshop as well, but that can wait unless someone has a good idea for that already);

Rewards for the Workshop will be given to all serious participants with a small level modifier. One participant per thread will be chosen as an exemplary contributor and will receive a larger reward. A judge will be assigned to distribute this as well as post a condensed rubric in order for the author to get his earned rewards. There isn’t a set method for handling battles, though (and this is just me thinking on the fly) I’d suggest allowing for commentary along with each participant suggesting who they think is the winner. The judge in charge of the thread would then post the rubrics for both combatants. While it’d be the judges discretion on who won, if the commentary was one sided and for good reason, then that particular participant would be the winner by default. Again, that’s just an idea. As with all trial runs, we can’t know what will work until we’ve tried. I’ll be posting in the current workshop tonight and everyone will have a much clearer understanding of where we are with this facet of Althanas Judging.


2.) Revision or removal of the GP and Bazaar system

We’re working on an revision of the GP and Bazaar system, including OOC options to gain and spend GP, Black Market, Auctions, additions to what the Bazaar can offer and lots of other ideas that are being hammered out.


3.) The implementation of Wealth as a character trait and the merging of character equipment and intrinsic attributes when considering profile approval

I’m unsure as to whether everyone was in agreement about the wealth trait topic. As many people posted in this thread, they already treat their characters as though they live at a certain level as wealth. Some write their characters as wealthy adventurers that live in the finest inns and tip more than typical. Others write their characters into poverty. What would this new wealth trait give writers the ability to accomplish? I think I asked earlier in this thread, but would someone wanting to play the part of a prince have the ability to tap into the wealth of a nation’s royalty? Would he have the opportunity to claim the family’s prized and heavily enchanted sword as his own? That’s an extreme instance, but a plausible one. At the moment we are working on the aforementioned GP changes.

As for the merging of character equipment and abilities, I like that idea. We are currently working on how to make equipment and abilities more inline with each other. Its still somewhat vague in my mind however.



4.) Giving a little more leeway to level zero characters and/or allowing for modestly faster advancement.

A draft to clarify the rules of RoG approval is being worked on. It should hopefully help new members with the whole being a pipsqueak issue.

Also, see number 6



5.) Removing or vastly reducing thread length minimums.

We haven’t hit this topic yet, though the judging staff has been lenient on this topic already in the past. I’m sorry we haven’t tackled this as hard as everything else.




6.) Fixing the EXP formula to even out the per-post value between long and short threads (note, if done well, this would fix half of No. 4 and prevent abuse that could possibly result from No. 5)

Well, I just reloaded the page and saw that Zook answered too. So there’s no point in typing anymore on the EXP. He clarified that pretty well.

[Zook Murnig]

Yes. In fact Amaril is going to do the scoring for it as soon as he is able, as he has already read your quest. Ulysses has been decided, unanimously, to be the top contributor.

Godhand, the rare item auctions are also among the discussed options, and your support of the idea, as well as anyone else's support for it, will go toward helping in bringing it to fruition.

[Christoph]

As for the Workshop, that just got finished. Mostly it was a matter of me getting together with the relevant people on AIM to decide on that. The rewards for every meaningful contribution are 25 EXP per level and 50 gold. The top contributor receives an additional 100 gold. The rubric for the Workshop will be a modified version of the current one, with it broken down into four categories. Story for 30 points, Character for 30 points, Writing Style for 30 points, and Wild card for 10 points.

Thanks for the update. I just have a couple questions. One, can reviewers opt to use the full rubric if they want (I probably wouldn't but some people might want to)? Two, what counts as a meaningful contribution, and what are the criteria for Top Contributor? Three, can a reviewer critique certain areas of the thread in more detail while glossing over others, to take better advantage of their specialties (that is, if Person A is good with technique and the finer points of prose, he could spend much more time there, while not saying much in the areas of character development, where he feels less confident)? Four, maybe I'm asking for too much, but could a contributor opt out of the gold and just get more EXP?


There is an in-depth revision of the Bazaar and other uses for GP taking place at the moment. It's too soon to really say anything more about it than that there are quite a number of options on the table, including allowing people to buy artwork from resident artists on the site and selling items and enchantments between players via a black market.

Nothing has been said regarding the Wealth trait, as we've opted for the increased importance of GP on the forum. If you want to play your character as if they were rich, then go right ahead. There will be numerous ways in which you can earn gold out of character. If you want to play your character as if they were poor, as well, you can go right ahead.

That's fine, really. An official Wealth trait might be too ahead of its time. Just make it clear that characters can be rich or poor regardless of their GP count.


We're currently in debate over how to go about modifying the current EXP formula. As said before, there was a simpler formula on the table, but upon closer scrutiny it did not hold up, giving thousands of EXP to low-scoring threads of insane length. But don't lose hope, we're still working on it!

That shouldn't be a problem, really. Score should always be a larger factor than length, so long crap threads still won't get too much. I'm just glad that it's being worked on. Just make sure it happens!



As for thread length, I think we're all in favor of axing the idea. If it becomes a problem, however, we may have to implement it again, albeit in a much more reasonable form.

If the EXP formula gets sorted out, it shouldn't be an issue, but that's fair.



3.) The implementation of Wealth as a character trait and the merging of character equipment and intrinsic attributes when considering profile approval

I’m unsure as to whether everyone was in agreement about the wealth trait topic. As many people posted in this thread, they already treat their characters as though they live at a certain level as wealth. Some write their characters as wealthy adventurers that live in the finest inns and tip more than typical. Others write their characters into poverty. What would this new wealth trait give writers the ability to accomplish? I think I asked earlier in this thread, but would someone wanting to play the part of a prince have the ability to tap into the wealth of a nation’s royalty? Would he have the opportunity to claim the family’s prized and heavily enchanted sword as his own? That’s an extreme instance, but a plausible one. At the moment we are working on the aforementioned GP changes.

As for the merging of character equipment and abilities, I like that idea. We are currently working on how to make equipment and abilities more inline with each other. Its still somewhat vague in my mind however.



The more I think about it, the more I would suggest not worrying about merging equipment and abilities if the staff is dead-set on making GP more important. It would be impossible to balance without upsetting players who worked hard for their GP, only to be limited on their abilities because of the stuff they bought with it.


4.) Giving a little more leeway to level zero characters and/or allowing for modestly faster advancement.

A draft to clarify the rules of RoG approval is being worked on. It should hopefully help new members with the whole being a pipsqueak issue.

I'll reserve judgment until I see it.




5.) Removing or vastly reducing thread length minimums.

We haven’t hit this topic yet, though the judging staff has been lenient on this topic already in the past. I’m sorry we haven’t tackled this as hard as everything else.


It wouldn't be hard. Just announce, "hey, remember that rule about 10 posts or 10,000 words? Yeah, it doesn't exist anymore. Have fun!"

[Letho]

Stuff
You say tomato and I say to-mah-toh!

You say potato and I say po-tah-toh!

You play level zero as incompetents, I don't play them as incompetents. I could go and dissect your post one sentence at a time as well, but for two reasons. I'm at work now so I don't have the time, and I really don't see the point since some people see what they want to see.

[Godhand]

You say tomato and I say to-mah-toh!

You say potato and I say po-tah-toh!

You play level zero as incompetents, I don't play them as incompetents. I could go and dissect your post one sentence at a time as well, but for two reasons. I'm at work now so I don't have the time, and I really don't see the point since some people see what they want to see.

Cool story bro.

"You got it all wrong for reasons that will come to me!"

[Rayse Valentino]

Letho: Your description of a level zero character goes way over the heads of new members. There's no way any of them will think the way you do, and if you want them to think that way then it needs to be very VERY clearly outlined in the RoG FAQ. I did enjoy the thought of a knight being a 'powerful' character on Althanas, which is just silly and you know it.

As for the Writing Workshop, what the hell happened in that one thread? There was some commentary, then I look at the second page and there's some scores. Where did those scores come from? Does a judge still have to do a judging, but just leaves the commentary to the other people? I would totally be all over that if in addition to the Workshop, I had what appeared to be a normal judging as well, but then again that may be my narcissism talking. I don't want to do anything I can't take back and get a lower score than if I did it the other way or something. I think ideally if all judging was replaced by the Workshop I'd feel like someone other than one judge was reading my thread, so of course I'm all over that and am considering submitting my next thread there (should take another 1-2 weeks).

I would like to consider the workshop a sort of internship for up and coming judges, to test out their commentary skills before being accepted into such a role. At the moment, all I can glean from the requirements are "be active", which stops applying if you've been here long enough apparently. Actually requiring some sort of experience would be a big step up.

[Letho]

Letho: Your description of a level zero character goes way over the heads of new members. There's no way any of them will think the way you do, and if you want them to think that way then it needs to be very VERY clearly outlined in the RoG FAQ. I did enjoy the thought of a knight being a 'powerful' character on Althanas, which is just silly and you know it.It was a rudimentary example that shouldn't have been taken word for word, but it obviously was. All I know that back when I was starting out Letho was not very different from that very example, save for an additional combat ability that improved him stats a bit for a short while. All he had to his name was a sword, a breastplate, a pair of gauntlets and the clothes on his back. Yet in my first finished thread I wound up tackling a huge Chimera beast with Sword-for-hire, and in my second Letho fought a whole bunch of mercenaries on two occasions with two more people on his side, and he held his own in both cases. Got his ass kicked a bit, but held his own. So while he was not 'powerful' (and no character at level zero should be, regardless of what anyone says), he was, dare I say, competent?

[Rayse Valentino]

I agree with your assessment of what a level zero is capable of (after all, it's up to the writer unless it's a battle thread... and with the other's approval even that doesn't matter much).

My discrepancy was that new people don't make that sort of assumption. They think they're supposed to be crappy, y'dig?

[Cyrus the virus]

Getting changes made always appeared to be the most difficult part of being a moderator. I was never one to suggest changes and write them out in detail, but I supported a lot of things that certain members (okay, Findelfin and like two others) suggested. He'd write out these ideas in just the right amount of detail, and all but two or three people would agree with them, but actually putting them into practice never seemed to work out.

Max once mentioned that Althanas needed an administrator who simply implemented changes that were mostly agreed with, rather than getting everyone on board with them. I believe he felt we needed a "doer" who sometimes did what was necessary. It wasn't a very popular thought at the time, but it's clear to me that it's important to have someone who makes the final decision on changes. People will always disagree with those changes, though, so it's not like people are lining up for the position. It's very very difficult to put new ideas into practice, here.

As for the RoG debate, I always tried to balance new characters as if they were an outstanding member of any of the regions' militia, in terms of battle abilities. Like they were the equivalent of one of Radasanth's most notable soldiers, besides important generals or whatever. Someone who could best a typical soldier one-on-one without much hassle. But it's important to approach each new profile with an open mind.

Edit: Getting some RoG moderators on the same page about this sort of thing and then posting it as a general rule in the RoG forum would be pretty good, though. Maybe as the #1 rule on top of the outline so that people aren't so overwhelmed by details, and have an idea of what is acceptable without reading mountains of detailed text.

And RoG mods should be as non-dickish and personable as possible. I did not always apply this thought to my RoG days :) I can see how important it is now, though.

[Sid]

I realize this is way past when the discussion happened, but since its still the fourth most recent thread I'm going to plow ahead anyway.

On topic of the abilities and items being integrated in character level, and also GP value, its already happened. Its been a while, and I'm infrequently on the site (a few times per year, sadly), but I recall someone posting an update and just getting screwed. The person (don't remember either mod or writer), had just leveled up and bought a really bitchin sword that was enchanted and cost like 5k gp, then went to do the level up and wasn't allowed to have the new updates and ended up barely making any advancement because in combination with the sword it made the character overpowered. The sword that they'd just spent a shit-ton of gold on. It wasn't my character, didn't affect me, but I felt they got robbed ridiculously. If they'd just done the update, then bought the sword, it would have been no problem.

This was bullshit then, especially cause it didn't seem to happen to everyone, but nobody made a fuss about it that I saw. It was an example of the way GP isn't worth using, and it also makes it so that actually using the GP you've horded would then devalue the exp you've earned.

I don't know if this is still relevant, I'm still working my way through the site since the last summer when I was here, but I thought I'd post it while it was on my mind.