Suggestion: Registration Guidelines for New Members and their Characters

[Ataraxis]

As an answer to the Resume thread, I decided to write this. Too many topics were being discussed there all at once, which is good, but now's a good time to focus on each individually.

I've looked over the RoG registrations, and our rate of people actually sticking to their level 0 characters fluctuates between 10 and 15%. I know a lot of it can be explained by the writer's loss of interest or life intervening, but a big chunk of them were due to being turned off after first contact with Althanas, specifically after the RoG approval of their characters. I never liked seeing their enthusiasm die with every subsequent correction they had to make, until they never bothered posting anymore.

Some might disagree with me, but the fact remains that right now, mods end up wasting hours approving a lot of profiles that are never used afterwards, which means lots of work and no results. Following these restrictive rules actually hurts everyone: the players and the RoG mods themselves, basically the site as a whole. Rather than continuing to enforce rules that exist for the sake of being rules, I worked on this guideline that might help increase the stick-rate of new members. It's not perfect, and I'm not going to stubbornly stick to it out of ego: if you have ideas to make it better, then please, do tell. At this moment, I only showed it to one mod and one player, yet oddly they both seem to agree with it. Knock on wood, but I think that's a good sign after all the drama.

[Ataraxis]

Registration Guidelines for New Members and their Characters

To give our player-base more creative leeway to write the stories they want to write, we exercise a lot of flexibility when it comes to their characters. This should in no way be considered a free-pass to make godly characters from scratch, but rather be seen as an opportunity to write about exceptional people without being dragged down by regulations that could kill the imagination that brought you to our site.


The Concept

The basic concept behind your character will play a major role in what you will be able write about. You can write about an experienced mercenary, a wizened wizard or a genius scholar without being tied down by the wrongly-perpetuated notion that level 0 characters are merely upstarts with a slight edge over the average Althanian NPC (although nothing stops you from making your character one such upstart). However, the concept also offers insight into what is relevant to your character, and skills and abilities that are wholly unrelated to it (as in, a medieval era war veteran with extensive abilities in plasma rifles that is not explained in his history or background). We do not ask that you stick to a commonly known or even cliché concept, only that whatever you choose for your character concept remains cohesive.


Guidelines on Skills

A character who is a Master of Disguise will not need to jump through hoops to gain mastery in disguise: they may start out with exceptional skill, and are free to polish it upon each level update. Should they also be a thief, then high skills in lock-picking and theft would be needed as well, and thus likely approved. Whatever is required to retain the integrity of your character will be approved, but there is a line between keeping the essential and abusing the freedom provided by this system: as such, all profiles are treated case by case, rather than evaluated by following a set template.

For example: a master of disguise who can predict a thousand contingencies with a knowledge of every lock ever made and with a 100% rate of success for every attempt at thievery, who is also a master of various combat arts and is a legend amongst the greatest sorcerers of the world is, we regret to say, a joke: no one will wish to write with such a Mary Sue or Marty Stu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue), and you yourself would likely lose interest within an hour of their approval – to save you the time, such a character will not be approved. The RoG moderator in charge of your profile will inform you of this should your character be in this situation, and will work with you toward creating a character that is worth your while.


Summary: You will be allowed what is essential to your character, as long as these skills do not make him infallible. You may also have a few unrelated skills that your character might have learned on the go at some point in their life, but they cannot be as advanced as his core skills.


Guidelines on Special Abilities

This section deals with magic, mutations, curses and any form of applied phlebotinum (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppliedPhlebotinum) you can think of. These abilities exist outside of Skills, since they are usually beyond the realm of human capability. However, their approval follows the same logic as Skills.

For a well-rounded wizard, you do not need to make a list of all minor parlor tricks or convenient spells all wizards have (a torchlight spell, a cleaning spell, a spellspark to light candles, etc.). You can round them all up in a single convenient ability. Their trademark (and likely strongest) spells, however, will need to be listed individually. They can be potent, but be mindful of giving them limitations to avoid having your character fling magic left and right without a sweat. Moreover, to start off, we suggest including from 2 to 4 abilities for your character, depending on their overall strength, but this number is not set in stone.

As an example, we’ll present an extreme case. Should you be interested in playing a character who kills all that it touches for the psychological aspect of this power (similar to Wither (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wither_(comics)) of Marvel fame), it actually will be granted as long as it is not a cheap ploy to defeat all other player characters, regardless of their levels. Should the latter be witnessed, you will be docked heavily for powergaming, and the move will likely make other members of Althanas reluctant to write with you. Should you want to retain this power without driving other writers away, then you can place regulations on this ability, or work them out with the moderator in charge of your profile. Perhaps the ability does not work on certain people, or your character has learned to control its potency, etc. In allowing this type of skill, a great amount of trust is given you, so we ask that you do not abuse it.


Summary: Your character can start with a small handful of abilities related to their concept. The stronger they are individually, the fewer you should start with, but the exact number will depend on the character overall (usually from 2 to 4 abilities). Note that the more likely an ability can be abused, the more likely the RoG moderator will need to put limitations on them.


Guidelines on Equipment

When it comes to weapons, it is preferable not to give your character an arsenal. For a knight-type character, the basic sword, shield and armor would be advised, and they should be the strength of iron or steel. If your character needs to possess a specific and possibly enchanted item of higher durability, then it will be allowed as long as it is essential. You will, however, be unable to sell it.

Otherwise, limitations on clothing or other everyday items do not exist. While not necessary to list, however, it always helps to keep track of what your character carries.

As for homes or transport vehicles, you are free to have these as well, although they too cannot be sold.


Guidelines on Familiars and Non-Player Characters

Your character may have one or multiple traveling companions, pets, rides or familiars. For example, if your character has a normal horse, then listing its name, its appearance and perhaps its origin would be enough. The same goes for typical NPCs (family members, traveling companions, pets and familiars) without any real abilities.

Should they have abilities (as in the case of a brother in arms, a fellow soldier, a partner, summoned familiar, etc.), then creating a condensed profile listing all of the above as well as their abilities and skills is much appreciated. If you intend to use them in battles or to assist your character in quests regularly, we suggest making them generally weaker than your character. However, if it is necessary to your storyline that they be powerful, they will only be approved if you add a note that they can only be used in battles or quests with other players with their permission.


Interaction with Player Characters and Non-Player Characters

Some of your skills and abilities, although approved by an RoG moderator, will require approval from another party: those you write with. For example, being an exceptional thief does not give you the right to steal the belongings of another character: no matter what or how strong it is, you must ask permission from those with whom you are writing before using skills that can permanently (or just substantially) affect their characters.

You are however free to use such skills and abilities on NPCs of your own, as long as the effect does not exceed what is described in your profile (you should not be able to kill a powerful NPC Evil Overlord using a single fireball, for the sake of logic). Moreover, should the NPC be the creation of another player, asking their permission is also preferable.

[Ataraxis]

Level 0 Profile Examples


Concept #1: Notorious Cat Burglar

Non-Combat Skils

Acrobatics – advanced/expert
Lockpicking – expert
Stealth – advanced
Silver Tongue – advanced

Combat skills

HtH Combat – intermediate/advanced
Knife-throwing – intermediate

Abilities

Seductive Wink – can capture the hearts of those she winks at for a few moments, interrupting their train of thought for a few seconds. Does not work on PCs of higher level or with strong willpower.

Fade – Can magically make herself more unnoticeable when hiding in shadows or in a crowd, but in plain sight she is merely hard to focus on.



Much more competence than the usual starter characters, but in no way overpowered. The Non-combat skills have no incidence in battle threads, and in no way does being able to pick stronger locks affect spoils at the end of the thread (as was used in an argument in the Resume thread once). Spoils are spoils: how the character gets them has no incidence on whether or not they should be approved. Moreover, since IC wealth seems to be accepted now, finding IC riches should only give them the ability to buy things IC (GP being mostly OOC, they won’t be able to use the untold wealth they find by breaking into a vault to buy powerful weapons). If they do buy a powerful weapon ICly, the powerful weapon will still have to be approved at the end of the quest where the purchase happens. As such, the argument on lock-picking somehow breaking the game can no longer stand. Also, I know Acrobatics can be used in combat too, but I saw it more as circus acrobatics thieves use to sneak into secure areas rather than those flashy flips and spins. I would understand moving it to Combat Skills, though.



Concept #2: Mutant Technopath

Non-Combat Skils

Eidetic Memory – (no rank as it can’t be trained) Can remember everything.
Engineering Knowledge – expert
Hands of a Mechanic – advanced/expert

Combat skills

Wrench Fighting (blunt weapon) – intermediate

Abilities

Technopathy – He can communicate with artificial life-forms with a required level of sentience by tapping into their AI. This does not always work, however, as more complex forms are too complicated to understand, for now. Magical or mechanical golems usually respond very well, however.

Von Neumann Alliance – He created one small golem with the ability to build a copy of itself that retains this ability, thus creating a self-replicating army of tinkering golems. He currently possesses five of these. They help him construct more complex machines much faster, as he can use his technopathy to give them specific construction orders.

Tinker Under Fire – using raw components from the environment, and with the help of his worker golems, he can fashion makeshift weapons of average complexity. For example, he can fashion a crude bow or a quickly-degrading catapult within a minute if the correct materials are available. When not under duress, however, he has the potential to build more complex and durable machinery (which will be requested as spoils at the end of a thread).

Golem Maker – Outside of his slowly self-replicating machines, he is capable of building constructs more adapted for combat. At this level, he can only build constructs of medium size and complexity (robot dog or the like). Each golem must be requested as a spoil at the end of a thread and will be counted as a familiar.



Here, we have some advanced abilities. These are meant to have powergaming potential to be a good example. However, at this level, in a fight, he can only have access to typical weapons, even lower quality weapons than the other level 0 warriors. Moreover, he has no skill with bows or the like. A catapult, however, gives him a bit of an edge and makes fights way more interesting, as he'd need to keep his distance and play the field. Golem Maker is powerful too, but since he has to request them as spoils anyway, and they're very basic (a robot dog would be comparable to summoning a wolf, I guess) then it's very fair to other characters. Von Neumann Alliance allows him to work way faster than real engineers (seriously, you don't want a fantasy engineer to do engineering work real-time - that thread will never end). If anyone is familiar with it, this would be about the ability level of a low-to-medium Spark in the Girl Genius (http://girlgeniusonline.com/) Webcomic.

The potential for powergaming is strong, so adequate limitations will need to be applied. However, these in no way detract from the concept itself, and are in no way discouraging to the player.



Concept #3: Hardened War Veteran

Non-Combat Skils

Survival Training – advanced/expert
First Aid Training – advanced
Stealth – intermediate

Combat skills

HtH Combat – advanced/expert
Bladed Weapons Proficiency (knives, swords, axes) – advanced/expert
Makeshift Weapons Proficiency (tree boughs, pans, big rocks) – advanced

Abilities

Conditioned Body – Having survived countless injuries, his skin has toughened under his scars (likened to leather), and his bones have hardened by calcification on innumerable micro fissures and fractures over the decades (likened to granite). However, should his bones break, they will not break cleanly, and the risks for infection are increased in a comminuted fracture.
Pain Threshold – Having trained his resistance to pain over the years, he can withstand twice the punishment of the everyday man before going down, and his stamina is also improved by this resistance.
Titan's Strength – Through relentless training, he has twice the strength of the everyday man.



Here’s as far as a pure-combat character should probably go at level 0. Expertise in a couple of weapon skills, and advanced in various other skills that have developed in combat. Note that he can probably only use one weapon type at a time (and dual-wielding isn’t noted as a skill). This makes him extremely reliable in open combat, as such a character is supposed to be. Survival is intended as survival in the wild, not the ability to cling to life on the battlefield. First Aid also cannot be used in the heat of battle, so it won’t affect him there. Pain threshold could arguably be included directly in Conditioned Body, but I'll leave it separate for clarity. Conditioned body makes him very tough, but once that toughness wears out he’s in a worst position than the normal person. Moreover, twice the strength of an average man is well within human potential with the adequate training, which he purportedly had, but since it can be upgraded beyond that, I see it (and Pain threshold) as a special ability.


If you have comments on these examples, or think they are too strong even for the new guidelines, say so. I'm trying to push the envelope and make profiles that poke at the extremes to better facilitate the work of RoG mods later on, if everyone likes the idea enough to go with it. With universally accepted example concepts at the ready, it'd be much easier to know whether an actual character registration fits the bill or not.

[Atzar]

On the two examples you gave, the system would work quite well (and the second one sounds like it would be fun to play). What about more combat-oriented characters? Say, for example, a weapons master - somebody who has trained with all types of weapons practically since infancy. You could put a spear, sword, axe, bow, whatever in his hands and he'll be very skilled with it. By your system, it would be allowed, but in a fight he's going to steamroll almost everything at his own level - and probably quite a few characters at higher levels. Now, he likely won't be much good at anything else... do you accept that as a large enough sacrifice to justify the amount of power that he'd have?

Also, what about characters who have already gone through RoG? They're going to be significantly weaker than the newer characters that come in. A character fresh out of the oven will probably be significantly stronger than my most powerful character, Atzar, who's at level 2.

Thus far, my stance has been that I support the easing of restrictions in the RoG - to an extent. While this has the advantage of simplicity - the system as you outlined is really very straightforward - it's pushing the 'extent' that I was talking about. I'd support this system, but it's definitely about as far as I'm willing to go.

[Christoph]

I like it. Nicely done. I have some suggestions, but mostly in structure rather than intent -- things to help with clarity, if you would.

Split the character traits up as follows: basic physical and mental traits (such as strength, stamina, intelligence, and so forth) could be labeled as "Attributes" or somesuch. These would be marked as above average, below average, or using a multiple for more notable cases: "Twice the strength of an average man." It's not exact, but it gives everyone an intuitive grasp on the basic physical and mental attributes of the character.

Then any normal or semi-normal learned trait can be filed under the combat and non-combat Skills, but then instead of an ambiguous "average"-based system, use "proficient", "expert", and so on, and encourage the players to give an example of what their character could do with that skill.

Then everything else falls under magic, supernatural, or other special abilities, as you already covered in your examples. Again, these are just minor suggestions, but I think they'd help make things clearer.


P.S: Atzar, I see where you're coming from, but I would posit that combat shouldn't be the be-all-end-all of Althanas. I agree that Ataraxis's proposal is about spot-on, and going any further would be too much. It'll be a little tricky in the short-term, but much better in the long term. And the staff can let current low-level characters update so they are up to speed in the new system. That should solve most of the potential problems.

[Ataraxis]

I think it'd be very normal for a character who's a war veteran to steamroll a character who's an engineer in a straight-out fight. I wouldn't question being beat to a pulp by a pro boxer, for one.

However, non-combat characters react to combat characters differently. In the Cat Burglar's case, hit and run tactics, speed and stealth attacks will balance out the massacre that straight HtH combat would allow. In the Engineer's case, well a well-aimed rock to the face from a distance hurts like hell, and has a chance to even the fight. Otherwise, using the environment while hiding like a rat would be the general tactic. The war vet clearly has the advantage overall, but at least the others have skills that allows them to fight creatively outside of direct combat.

As for retroactive application of the guidelines, I couldn't say. I don't have any pull on this, being, well, not a mod, but I'd assume a modified reincarnation rule could work. No XP loss, just a revision of the level 0 profile, and a clear step-by-step of what the character would have gained on subsequent levels, all in one profile. I'm also guessing that people over level 5 wouldn't bother: I doubt much would change.

And yes, me too: this is literally as far as I would go as well, which is the point of the guideline. It has a clear line of where to stop being open to creativity, without putting everyone on the same level by saying their apples and pears are all oranges. Things don't work that way anywhere, and they shouldn't here either.

Also, I don't think anyone should care if their non-combat characters get pummeled, just like how combat-characters shouldn't care if they don't make lots of money or can't make super-cool flying cars. It's the conscious choice you make when deciding your character concept. Plus, nothing actually says that a brainy character won't beat a brawny one in a fight. It's simplifications like that that created these problems to start with. I'd enjoy reading these kinds of battles, because they'd be different from the usual repetitious 'I whale on you, no I whale on you stronger' fights.

If you watch Chuck, you'll get what I mean, from the point of view of season 1 and 2, compared to season 3. He's on both sides of the spectrum, and he was well balanced for both. If you don't... well, watch Chuck. Seriously. I love it.

[Ataraxis]

I'll double-post, to clarify what post I'm replying to (This is aimed at you, Chris).

I like that idea. What I'm unsure of for attributes is how far it'll affect the general balance of the character. Say you play a giant, you'll have much greater strength and perhaps much lower dexterity... but do attributes stay balanced mathematically for all characters, or should they affect what is allowed overall? I'm thinking the latter, but I'd like to hear what other people think. Moreover, I was told when I first came here that intelligence was a kind of free attribute, and it didn't weigh into the overall balance, but I don't know the stance on it anymore.

As for the skill descriptors, I considered adding them, but I wasn't sure what has been officially decided for them yet. I leave that open for now, but once I know I'll edit them in. As far as I remember, though, the descriptors are compared to the average skill of a person who uses it often (average swordsmanship means an average swordsman, average lumberjacking an average lumberjack, etc). If anyone can confirm, that'd be appreciated.

[Atzar]

Well played. I'm behind this.

I would like to see optional re-registration for existing characters, though. Just throwing that out there for the mods that read this.

[Christoph]

I just think setting a standard that fits the skill, that is a level of training ("proficient", and so on) would help ease some confusion. It's really just aesthetics, but helpful aesthetics. I really wouldn't know what an "average swordsman" is. I mean, I'm an "average swordsman" at my local SCA chapter, but I doubt that's the same as an average swordsman in a fantasy setting. But if you said, "Character X is an expert with a sword, and can best well-trained soldiers and fend off multiple attackers of necessary", that would have much more meaning.

As for intelligence being a "free ability": I'm cool with that. That's how I play Elijah Belov. That said, I meant more in terms of things like memory, numerical computing power, and so forth that falls significantly beyond the scope of average. For example, Eli is clever, cunning, creative, resourceful, etc, but he doesn't have eidetic memory or anything like that. If he did, I'd include it. Though maybe that would go under the Special Abilities...

Huh, I argued myself into agreeing. Carry on. Though, my point stands with the physical attributes.


Edit: After some discussion on AIM, Ataraxis and I have come up with the following possible organization amendment:

Attributes: basic physical traits (strength, agility, stamina, etc), ranked in terms of an average adult -- IE: Above average, below average, the X of four men, etc.

Skills (Combat and non-combat): Anything that can be learned under normal circumstances, such as combat maneuvers, lore and academics, and musical training. These would stated in terms of the level of training and education (Novice, well-versed, proficient, etc, depending on the specific skill and its level).

Talents: Natural aptitudes that can't really be learned, such as the aforementioned eidetic memory, perfect musical pitch, and so forth. Some things will be borderline between Talents and Skills or Special Abilities (such as culinary training vs. natural talent with food, but that's perfectly fine). These can sometimes be honed over time.

Special Abilities: Anything paranormal, magic, superhuman traits, etc.

[Shadai]

Looking good, but I think it needs some work.

Sad that my first post here post RoG is here in an OOC forum. Equally sad is my ex-thief character isn't feeling very thief-like with the shoe-horned, one-size-fits-all-each-ability-by-the-RoG-playbook.

I'm not going to say I kicked the hornets nest, as clearly this has been brewing long before I even laid eyes on this site. The sad part is some people seem to get what I was saying in the post and others are completely missing the point.

Resolved 1 - There is no one-size-fits-all.

Even by the very "guide" threads that litter this forum for new players to read before posting their character, there is no clear definition anywhere. Just general guidelines. No where does it explain one above average, one average, one below average. Here's what the mods don't get. Below average on the normal person scale (ie, random dude who finds this site) means you SUCK at something. Why would I list a skill that a suck at? No amount of you explaining is going to knock this very vial, first impression.

Resolved 2 - Abolish the average

Since no one can explain what it is, it needs to be abolished. Its like defining a word and using that word to define it. Whats average? Well its an average hero. Okay.... whats that? That's like asking, what is frustrating? Well, its someone who does something really frustrating. Get it? Not hard. Abolish it. Kick it away. Never speak of it again. I don't care what you use in its place. It has to go. Put in a scale. Say you get 20 points for skills, say you have 10 skills. 2 points in each. Up to the mod to say yes and no. AT LEAST YOU CAN DEFINE IT. Make it a scale of 10 or 5 or 103783. Whatever. Which leads to:

Resolved 3 - Be consistent.

Whatever you do, be consistent. Allow older characters to "revamp" to the new system. Make it so for the new characters. MAKE IT CLEAR and present for new characters. Let them know what the rules are, preferably the minute they get here. And above all, be consistent with the rules.

I hope this is helpful. I'd really like to post a story here but even I'm doubting my character can pull it off from the nerfs. I believe you are headed in the correct direction, however.

[Ataraxis]

@ Chris:

The above categories interest me, but I'd like people's opinions on them. Is it getting too specific or will it help RoG and the players understand their characters and that of their fellow writers better? It simplifies things with clarity, but I'm also hoping it doesn't complicate things in an unforeseen way.

Basically, if we do go with these categories, I would want everyone to know which ones are purely flavor, which ones are summaries of the character, and which ones should be considered towards this new way of balancing (and I use the term loosely since it's more understanding what the player wants while preventing obvious cases of powergaming than actual balancing).

I see it this way: Attributes are summaries (so a giant with x3 strength would have an ability somewhere stating he has the strength of three men, I guess). Talents are flavor (eidetic memory, perfect pitch, uber taste-buds, etc.) and Skills and Special abilities will play in the overall 'balance'.

At least, that's just how I see it working, if we all did agree on having these categories.

If we do go for this, though, RoG mods would need a thread of their own in the mod forums with bullet points of what they need to consider whenever tackling a profile: overall concept, cohesion of skills and abilities, being careful of balancing the right categories while leaving the fluff alone, etc.

@ Shadai:

As I said in the Resume thread, I agree with you whole-heartedly. I'm actually glad you got here at that time and decided to post your explanation, as it literally jump-started everything (though I'm sorry you had such an awful first impression of Althanas). For one, I agree about the skill scales of average/above average/etc. That problem has been bouncing around for ages and we still have to see its ugly face daily. Christoph says he'd like to see people use actual examples to describe skill levels, such as: capable of fending off a trained soldier with a sword, or of fending off multiple unskilled attackers at once or something like that. I personally use the descriptor system (average, etc.) alongside the comparison one, just for good measure.

As for abolishing the average, I'm all for it once everyone agrees on using an alternate system like the comparison one, for example.

And the consistency is something that I think we're all gunning for as well. We've been taking about streamlining information for ages, but basically there's only been superficial reorganization of the forums (and kind of a sloppy one for the FQ forums) and new threads that are just condensed versions of older ones. I personally would like to see more summaries and bullet points around OOC informational threads.

And oh, edit! New idea to get info directly to new players. Someone would need to write out a very clear and straightforward automatic PM for all newly registered members. In it, they would be linked to every thread they need, including RoG ones (for example, this guideline if it becomes accepted) with all of the information they have to know to make a profile without going through that unnecessary back and forth.

[Godhand]

This is getting way too specific. I think Ataraxis' original draft, as posted, was simple and pure like the driven snow or a retarded Buddhist monk. I feel like profiles shouldn't have to outline EXACTLY what you can do and how good you do it. Ideally they'd provide some sort of general overlook: "This is the sort of character I'm playing, these are his exceptional abilities." Then maybe the guy wouldn't box himself into a corner.

I don't know. I'm tired; if I'm not making any sense I'll shut up. I don't actually hate the above/below average system, though, at least not the one the mods seem to think has always been implied. That is, that you're not average compared to your average internet goer but compared to a specialist in that area.

I will say though that Above Average/Below Average doesn't make a lick of fucking sense when describing magical abilities. It is extremely fucking stupid for a pyromancer to list his pyromancy as above average when he's already got three special abilities in that area. It should be obvious how good he is; whether or not he's "average" has no bearing on his abilities and therefore it needs to go. It doesn't make any sense.

[Ataraxis]

Yeah, I agree, but I don't remember actually seeing it used for abilities. That's mainly why I didn't mention it anywhere. As far as I know, it's used specifically for skills, since there's no way of comparing a fireball ability to an average pyromancer. That's as crackpot as epileptic trees.

And I actually do feel on the fence about adding these categories or keeping the guideline straightforward as it is, so I'll let that discussion go on to get a better feel of what people want.

[Alydia Ettermire]

Remembering my own initiation into Althanas, and how frustrating it was (even more so because I had no intention of overplaying what I had, but had to make the changes because the mod in charge said I had to), I think it would be good for there to be a little more leeway in creating characters than there currently is.

I liked Ataraxis's first example, but the second one seemed a bit much...and there wasn't an example of a combat-oriented character.

I also think it would be good for there to be clearly defined examples for new members just making characters of what is and isn't acceptable for them to look over before making their first (maybe three examples of the same character, and different styles of character? 'This is a solid example, this is unacceptable, this will probably need some tweaking' etc).

Althanas has always seemed to have a problem with new member retention, and I do think that a lot of it boils down to "people don't know what they can and can't get away with, and it's frustrating to see the character you put so much time and effort into getting whittled down to nothing."

Come to think of it...with the experience I got when first making my first character, I probably wouldn't have lasted the week out if I hadn't felt so welcomed on an OOC basis. But many of the members I remember greeting me are either mucho busy or no longer around.

[Taskmienster]

I’ve never understood the issue with “average”. This is how I’ve always thought of it, a comparison if you will ::

Skill; General Soldier Knowledge

Adept : Never seen it, but I have a vague knowledge of what a soldier does.

Beginner: I watched an informative video on the subject, and as such have a much clearer idea of the general concept.

Below Average: I had the general knowledge of what it means to be a soldier from watching a video, but a soldier that is already in the military has also explained any questions I may have. Also, a rough technique on how to apply my knowledge has been understood.

Average: I’m in bootcamp, I am being trained on what is what, and can apply the techniques it takes to being a soldier in a real life situation… if nothing more than hopefully applying them correctly. I.E. I know how to shoot a gun, put on camo, hide, and aim… but in a real combat situation I may not be as hidden as I had previously hoped, or I may not be able to aim as perfectly as I have been trained due to combat stress.

Above Average: Graduated bootcamp, have been practicing my skills at the range. In a real life situation I at least can quickly identify a threat, and as such be able to use the skills that I have. However, real life skill usage doesn’t always correlate with what I have practiced, as a situation can be different. I’m confident, at least, that when I pull the trigger on my weapon that I know where it will be aimed downrange and confident in my own ability.

Skilled: I’ve got real life experience, and can mentor those that are beginner or adept level people in general soldier knowledge. It is something I’m fully aware of, can exhibit without question, and so forth.

Expert: I’m now the one training the below-average/average people, because I’m so good with what I can do as a soldier that it comes nearly second nature. I’m not perfect, but by god I’m closer.

Master: Got it, done, everything there is to know about being a soldier… I know it.



That’s not hard. I wasn’t comparing my average ability with only other people of my same skill knowledge, but against those that have no will to train in said skill as well. I’m not sure, but that seems to make a lot of sense to me.

On that note, the skill scale in terms of average really doesn’t work with anything outside of skills, obviously.


@ General proposal : I like the idea. It opens up creativity, but I’ve always been on the fence about unrestricted stuff. Though, as has always been brought up to me when I argue against it “Oh, but the judge will dock if they go overboard.” Yeah, but that never meant to me that we should allow it to get to the point where an entire thread has been written (most likely with another person) where the use of an ability is overpowered and have to dock for it. Not fun for the judge, and most likely annoying for the other person… a problem that could have been fixed from the beginning. Right?

[Ulysses]

I'm just wondering what effect this would have on current level 0s? Would we be expected to re-do our profiles, or have the option to, or not have to re-do them at all?

I personally would be happy to add some more stuff to mine, why not? Before I registered I actually removed a number of skills (just from looking at other level 0 profiles and gauging what sort of skill level would be expected) and I of course wouldn't be averse to adding them, ha.

Or actually, under Ataraxis' plan, would everyone have to go in and change their profile--at least at the next character update?

[Zook Murnig]

I really love this outline as-is, which is why when Ataraxis showed me his draft for it I posted a link to it on the mod forum. It covers pretty much everything while maintaining the level of ability that a new character should be at.

As for that list, Task, I have to say that your use of the term "adept" has always confused me, as the word is synonymous with "highly skilled." Maybe you meant "inept?"

Nonetheless, we may be better served by a system that steers clear of the word "average," going for descriptions instead. I do not believe that any kind of numerical system is the solution, as we're already having problems with clarity of meaning. Assigned numbers are by their nature arbitrary, and will need explanations at every turn. That will do naught but confuse new players more, and more consistently.

Further, I agree that any scale we use would be ineffective for magical abilities and their like, as we have to know what a given spell can and can't do. One person's above average fireball is inert until it reaches a certain destination, then explodes in a large range. Another's above average fireball streaks into their opponent and hits them with flame and concussive force. Another's is just a gout of fire. The list goes on, and that's just for a single, commonly used, spell.

As for restrictions in general, I don't think we need to worry so much about "preventing powergaming" as we need to worry about "preventing slogging." What I mean to say is that making the new players feel as if they are inept, whether they are or not, makes them write as if they are inept. And what you get from that is mostly threads where the characters are bumbling along, trying not to find themselves on the ends of their own swords, because this is what they find to be "safe" from the dreaded label of "powergamer."

This creates drag on judges, who hate reading slow and mindless quests wherein the hero valiantly defends the cellar against ten dire rats. We would much rather dock for one in ten threads for powergaming, than have two of these "safe" threads each on a regular basis.

The only player I've ever seen any tendency to powergame continually was Omegastar, who used his flash step ability frequently (read: every post) and subesquently was not only docked in his judgments, but was shunned by the other players. This is out of three years on this site. I think that's damned convincing, don't you?

[Christoph]

I’ve never understood the issue with “average”. This is how I’ve always thought of it, a comparison if you will ::

Skill; General Soldier Knowledge

Adept : Never seen it, but I have a vague knowledge of what a soldier does.

Beginner: I watched an informative video on the subject, and as such have a much clearer idea of the general concept.

Below Average: I had the general knowledge of what it means to be a soldier from watching a video, but a soldier that is already in the military has also explained any questions I may have. Also, a rough technique on how to apply my knowledge has been understood.

Average: I’m in bootcamp, I am being trained on what is what, and can apply the techniques it takes to being a soldier in a real life situation… if nothing more than hopefully applying them correctly. I.E. I know how to shoot a gun, put on camo, hide, and aim… but in a real combat situation I may not be as hidden as I had previously hoped, or I may not be able to aim as perfectly as I have been trained due to combat stress.

Above Average: Graduated bootcamp, have been practicing my skills at the range. In a real life situation I at least can quickly identify a threat, and as such be able to use the skills that I have. However, real life skill usage doesn’t always correlate with what I have practiced, as a situation can be different. I’m confident, at least, that when I pull the trigger on my weapon that I know where it will be aimed downrange and confident in my own ability.

Skilled: I’ve got real life experience, and can mentor those that are beginner or adept level people in general soldier knowledge. It is something I’m fully aware of, can exhibit without question, and so forth.

Expert: I’m now the one training the below-average/average people, because I’m so good with what I can do as a soldier that it comes nearly second nature. I’m not perfect, but by god I’m closer.

Master: Got it, done, everything there is to know about being a soldier… I know it.



That’s not hard. I wasn’t comparing my average ability with only other people of my same skill knowledge, but against those that have no will to train in said skill as well. I’m not sure, but that seems to make a lot of sense to me.

On that note, the skill scale in terms of average really doesn’t work with anything outside of skills, obviously.

First, many members won't make that connection unless it's explained to them. Second, even after explained that it means "average for a soldier" or whatever, it still remains more ambiguous than it should be. What's an average soldier? An average American soldier is going to be much different than an average Ethiopian soldier. An average soldier in a Salvar lord's army (drawn from the citizens and trained a little) is going to be much different than an average Raiaeran soldier. That's why the system should encourage players to speak in terms of levels of training, and then give examples and comparisons. THEN the word 'average' could appear as needed. For example: "Swordsmanship: Advanced Proficiency; Character X is knows dozens of techniques and combat maneuvers and can hold his own against a newly inducted Raiaeran Bladesinger." Maybe give a little more information on what the character can do, but even that gives a far clearer idea than "Character X is an an above average swordsman."



@ General proposal : I like the idea. It opens up creativity, but I’ve always been on the fence about unrestricted stuff. Though, as has always been brought up to me when I argue against it “Oh, but the judge will dock if they go overboard.” Yeah, but that never meant to me that we should allow it to get to the point where an entire thread has been written (most likely with another person) where the use of an ability is overpowered and have to dock for it. Not fun for the judge, and most likely annoying for the other person… a problem that could have been fixed from the beginning. Right?

The default should be letting the players do mostly what they want. Give friendly warnings, but then trust them to use common sense. If they don't, most others won't want to play with them, anyway. The system polices itself better than you might think.

[Max Dirks]

Personally, I think we shouldn't moderate "skills" at all. Anything that requires an adjective to describe it should be up to the player's discretion (and abuse enforced subject to the moderator's discretion). Being a master swordsman means nothing if you're up against another master swordsman with a) a better weapon, b) greater "abilities" (2x strength, etc.), and c) who is played by a better writer. All three of these things tend to come the longer you play at Althanas anyway, so why not let someone claim their character is anything?

I've always felt this way, but never won out on any discussions.

[Shadai]

I’ve never understood the issue with “average”. This is how I’ve always thought of it, a comparison if you will ::

Skill; General Soldier Knowledge

Adept : Never seen it, but I have a vague knowledge of what a soldier does.

Beginner: I watched an informative video on the subject, and as such have a much clearer idea of the general concept.

Below Average: I had the general knowledge of what it means to be a soldier from watching a video, but a soldier that is already in the military has also explained any questions I may have. Also, a rough technique on how to apply my knowledge has been understood.

Average: I’m in bootcamp, I am being trained on what is what, and can apply the techniques it takes to being a soldier in a real life situation… if nothing more than hopefully applying them correctly. I.E. I know how to shoot a gun, put on camo, hide, and aim… but in a real combat situation I may not be as hidden as I had previously hoped, or I may not be able to aim as perfectly as I have been trained due to combat stress.

Above Average: Graduated bootcamp, have been practicing my skills at the range. In a real life situation I at least can quickly identify a threat, and as such be able to use the skills that I have. However, real life skill usage doesn’t always correlate with what I have practiced, as a situation can be different. I’m confident, at least, that when I pull the trigger on my weapon that I know where it will be aimed downrange and confident in my own ability.

Skilled: I’ve got real life experience, and can mentor those that are beginner or adept level people in general soldier knowledge. It is something I’m fully aware of, can exhibit without question, and so forth.

Expert: I’m now the one training the below-average/average people, because I’m so good with what I can do as a soldier that it comes nearly second nature. I’m not perfect, but by god I’m closer.

Master: Got it, done, everything there is to know about being a soldier… I know it.



That’s not hard. I wasn’t comparing my average ability with only other people of my same skill knowledge, but against those that have no will to train in said skill as well. I’m not sure, but that seems to make a lot of sense to me.

On that note, the skill scale in terms of average really doesn’t work with anything outside of skills, obviously.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. First, this table is not listed anywhere in the "guides" to creating your character. This is what I was referring to as mysterious rules and made up regulation. Second, this table is great for soldier knowledge. How does this compare to a wizard's magical knowledge, a barbarian's ability to survive in nature, or a thief's ability to break in someplace? What, do we need to make tables for every possible skill?

Oddly enough, this is a different tone then you used when I asked you to define average or to at least explain it. You said (and I quote):

The difference in abilities and why I asked them to be put the way I asked is because that's how the RoG process is done. I'm not going to argue about what makes average to one person not average to another... because it's the same thing to me. Nor will I argue about percentages of the site that battle compared to quest, because that doesn't matter to me. What I'm working with is that I treat all these profiles the same, and ask for limits put on all skills and abilities...

Funny, that former bit looks like you know the difference...

I'm not here to start problems, nor to cast barbs. It is not my place nor my intentions. I'm an (as far as most of you all know) untested, unknowing, unfamiliar nub (stop laughing Max). However, I do have insight that most of you lack. That being, the ability to look at the sight without prior knowledge of how things work and point out the glaring irregularities.

If you tell me as mods and players that you can see this place with fresh eyes you are wrong. Especially those of you who subscribe to this awfully horrid one above, one average, one below method it NEVER was. (Whoever came up with that should be taken out back, beaten and quartered, imho) That would be on par with you and me standing at a door. I turn to you and tell you that 50 people are on the other side, and they are here to jump out at you and yell "surprise!" because it is your birthday. I told you this on the car ride over. You are very clear what's going to happen. You open they door, they jump out and yell "surprise!".... really at that point are you really surprised? Oh sure, you feign surprise, but with the prior knowledge it is not really a surprise anymore. This is what I mean by not being able to see the site as a new person sees it. New people see the FAQ's on character creation and think they got a handle on it, then get bushwacked in RoG with rules that were never explained to them. And you wonder why people leave.

You are never to define a word and use it in the definition. Doing that makes you the head asshole at the Department of Redundancy Department. The system as you so love to hold onto tooth, claw and nail needs to be abolished. You can't stop beginner players from thinking "below average" means they suck at something. How hard would it be to put numbers to that scale? How hard would comparison be afterward for all players? And furthermore, if I'm playing a 40 year old career soldier, I better damn well be a master at it, cause I've done it all. When you knock me down to above average (cause lord forbid, you can't be a master at 0 level), how much sense does that character make? Furthermore, how much would you want to continue playing? Your character no longer makes any sense at all!

You want rules? Make rules. Just clearly define them and apply them to all. You don't want rules? Fine, do that instead. Just don't slam the new guys into a shoe-horn, shit-eating-grin "well these are the rules you guys don't know about but have to follow" AFTER they have gone through all the trouble to come up with a compelling character idea.

Look though my eyes. I offer them to you.

[Ataraxis]

While I agree with you and understand your frustration, I was pretty sure just about everyone here is on your side of the fence. We want a better skill description system as bad as you do, and I've said that it's thanks to you and your actual fresh view of Althanas as a new member that helped jumpstart this whole movement to improve the forums, and to make it easier for new members to integrate into the IC and OOC community. My first post even stated that I don't wonder why people leave: it states black-on-white why I think they do and why these guidelines are being written in the first place.

I'm not sure if you've missed it, but these guidelines, if accepted, will allow you to re-register Vestagar exactly as you intended, with the mastery of all the core skills you wanted, if not more. The only thing we're not yet agreeing on (and not out of stubbornness, just out of trying to see everyone's point of view) is what descriptor system to use for skill levels.

The only reason I used the average/above-average system in the examples is because we haven't decided on what to change it for, yet. As you can see, these example characters have mastery of skills related to their concepts, and everyone has, to this point at least, agreed that they are adequate for level 0 profiles (outside of a few kinks). Once we decide on a system, though, I'll edit the examples to better reflect how the skills work.

This whole thing is to stop the shoe-horning you mentioned, so I'm a bit at a loss why you're mentioning this. If this does go through and we all agree on a function skill descriptor system, I don't think there'd be any problem left unsolved among those you listed. If there are, however, I am very sorry for being unaware of them, and would be glad to edit the guidelines to deal with them too.

Edit: Also, I'd be really happy if other people would contribute with Character Examples that I could edit into that post. If anyone wants to test out a battle-oriented character, I invite you to do so.

Edit #2: I added a pure combat character example. Express your agreements/disagreements with it freely! Also added a "Guidelines for Familiars and NPCs" section.

Edit #3 (@ Michelle): I changed example #2 a bit, but if you see the abilities as too strong, could you tell me why? I see them as essential for the character to work as intended, but with adequate regulations to make it a very fair character. I also added a pure-combat example, which pretty much amounts to Teric Bloodrose at, I think, level 1 or 2? With a few more advanced skills, granted, but that's the point of the guideline. And yeah, I do think that we aren't quite nearly as nauseatingly welcoming as we all used to be, which probably accounts for it. We're so few now, though, that it's pretty hard to keep ourselves from leaving.

Edit #4 (@ Kyle): Zook pretty much answered your question the same way I would have. If anything, I'd just add that you could view these as 'more or less' level 2-3 profiles with some discrepancies. Overall, they're no more likely to powergame than previous characters of those levels. Skills can be powergamed only one way: by writing them stronger than they should be when compared to the skill of an opponent. No matter what regulations you put in place, that's the kind of powergaming that can't be prevented since it basically ignores what's in the profile. It's special abilities that we should be more worried about, but we need to keep an open mind and let people write what they want, and help them out when they make their mistakes. Learning this way does have its merits, and people are less likely to complain and leave once they understand by having slipped, than when they are told not to do something without being told why.

Edit #5 (@ Dirks): Not exactly sure what you're advocating, so I won't comment for now. It does sound like it goes along the spirit of the Guidelines here, though. It might be too extreme, but maybe if you explain your point of view more we might see it differently.

[Shadai]

Ataraxis, I don't know you but I like you already, and that post wasn't intended towards your or anyone else who "gets" it. That bit of wisdom is for those people who still don't "get" it; an additional offer of clarity put in different words. I won't mention the names of those who I feel don't "get" it; but it is merely my hope that those who take up arms defending the current system know who they are and take something from that last post.

So please, do not take it as a personal attack.

It is just simply another view for those who (despite my shit musing on said subject, and your excellently well written plan) still cannot understand why the system needs to change.

[Zook Murnig]

Perhaps what we need to diffuse any confusion as to what our power level adjectives mean, is to completely abolish that part of our Realm of Greeting system. I'm not talking about just listing "Sword Proficiency" and saying nothing more. On the contrary. I'll provide an example using that skill below.

Sword Proficiency- MotherlickerX has been trained in the use of his sword and can readily defend himself from a small group of enemies at once. His combat style focuses on parries and thrusts, relying on his reach more than main strength.

This leaves no confusion as to what MotherlickerX is capable of as a swordsman. We already do this for spells anyway, why not expand it into the entire process? And for an example of a noncombat skill, I'm going to borrow from Shadai, as this is a good example that's been floating in my mind for the past few days.

Lock Picking- Vestagar has rudimentary knowledge of the workings of a lock, and given the right tools and enough time, he can spring a number of different types. (Proceed to list the types of locks he can or cannot break into reliably)

This gives a lot more leeway with skills, attributes, abilities, or whatever you want to call them, and allows for an approvals mod to still be able to say "Hey, I know you like your swordsmanship skill, but can you please take out that part where you can (in a crazy example) hurl your sword fifty feet to land in the chest of an enemy? It's a little much for level zero, but maybe at an update. Please and thank you!"

[Ataraxis]

I was thinking the same, actually. Basically I already use a skeleton of that system in the profiles for all of my characters, but the occasional “average/below-average” still does crop up in them sometimes. Here’s an idea I worked on after a lengthy discussion of what could work with Christoph, that expands on Zook’s proposal:

First off, we use adjectival descriptors that give a ball-park estimate, yes, but that are still better than the “average/below-average” system, because these word choices are to an extent much more self-explanatory.

Poor, Amateur, Neophyte, Intermediate, Journeyman, Advanced, Expert, Master, Genius, Legendary, Transcendent.

They’re always used in games for various skills and ranks, and we never really question them (not as much as we would if we saw above-average and the like instead, at the very least). However, even with these, it’s still not enough for real clarity, so Zook’s idea of normalized descriptions for each skill rank helps.

And I know, Shadai, that there’s not much sense in describing a skill a character sucks at, but the choice exists for people who want to focus on giving their characters skills that do start out poor, and work their way up. Otherwise, I generally agree. Quite likely, most people will give their starter characters skills that range from Neophyte to Advanced or Expert.

Here’s what I have. Naturally, it’s supposed to sound ridiculously masturbatory near the end:

Poor {Insert : Weapon Skill, Theft, Lockpicking, Stealth, Intellectual Field, etc.} – Basically no skill, or a passing technical understand of what the skill is. A poor swordsman would know not to hold the sword by the blade, and to keep the pointy end away from the body. A poor lockpicker would know you need something to pick locks with, and might have passing knowledge of tumblers. Someone with poor stealth stands out like a sore thumb and barely knows how to hide. Someone with poor engineering knowledge might have heard of this thing people call physics.

Amateur {Idem} – Has observed people use these skills, and possesses deeper knowledge of the mechanics and rules that govern the use of these skills. An amateur swordsman would know the existence of combat stances, would likely have tried to imitate them to a certain degree of success, but would certainly not be ready for a real fight. An amateur lockpicker would know what basic tools are used for the practice and a few types of lock mechanisms, and might have tried on a few. Amateur stealth would allow someone to know about the preferable places to hide, but would not be particularly inconspicuous. Amateur Engineers would know about the common terms like force, momentum, torque, and how to calculate some of those.

Neophyte {Idem} – This is where actual training in the skill begins. Swordsmen are introduced to the basics, and begin training regularly to have the kernels of the art carved into their muscles. They know the stances, and can perform them, but are still shaky. A neophyte lockpicker would be very decent at opening doors and chests with those big but simple locks on them, given enough time. You might actually not see a person who is a neophyte at hiding – not at first glance at least. Engineering knowledge at this level would be similar to junior high school.

Intermediate {Idem} – Like neophytes, but substantially better. They’re still rough and require training, but they could hold their own in a fight against people of similar rank, and might be able to fend off multiple attackers of lower rank. They would know about more complicated locks and different methods of picking them, and might know how to improvise tools. Someone with keen senses is very likely not to notice a person hiding with intermediate stealth. Senior high school mechanical physics for intermediate engineering.

Journeyman {Idem} – Same ‘one step up’ concept as ‘Intermediate versus Neophyte’, but they graduated from their apprenticeships. They could probably get decent jobs doing what they do.

Advanced {Idem} – They are even further along the path with either personal training or guidance from an expert or master – comparable to entering military training for a specific post, or beginning college education. Lockpickers of this level can tackle booby-trapped locks and get away unscathed, and do so in a relatively commendable time. You could probably be a trained patrolman and have to search all over a marketplace before finding someone with advanced stealth.

Expert {Idem} – Same ‘one step up’ concept as ‘Advanced versus Journeyman’, but they graduated from military training or college. They could probably get very good jobs doing what they do, or become well-praised teachers of the skill.

Master {Idem} – This is where people who know of you pick you out from the crowds because of how renowned you have become for your skill, if you run around social circles. At this point, you are considered the cream of the crop and are usually seen as the top of the pyramid, as far as the skills of a mortal (and long-lived races like elves and dwarves) go. Few are those who can rival you in this skill, and you can toy with groups of trained soldiers. Intellectuals would probably have the equivalent of a Master’s Degree at this point (or a Doctoral Degree if you want to stretch it as far as you can).

Genius {Idem} – Simply put, a rank that usually can’t be attained by hard work alone, but a combination of great effort and being gifted.

Legendary {Idem} – Is there a need to further describe your prowess? There are already so many songs and epic ballads about you that describe them so much more elegantly.

Transcendent {Idem} – A god exists within every swing of your blade, no barrier or seal stands before your nimble fingers, you can be seen only if you wish to be seen. You have so much more than a working knowledge and understanding of the universe, and it is quite than likely that the universe has suddenly found itself at a loss to understand you.

I would add "Divine – You ARE a God", but I think we all get it. I would like to hear if it sounds like a viable alternative to anyone, though. I could understand why some would be reluctant to go along with it, but I do think it allows RoG mods to gauge much more easily what these skill levels actually entail, and it helps the player choose the ranks for their character too.

[Taskmienster]

First, many members won't make that connection unless it's explained to them. Second, even after explained that it means "average for a soldier" or whatever, it still remains more ambiguous than it should be. What's an average soldier? An average American soldier is going to be much different than an average Ethiopian soldier. An average soldier in a Salvar lord's army (drawn from the citizens and trained a little) is going to be much different than an average Raiaeran soldier. That's why the system should encourage players to speak in terms of levels of training, and then give examples and comparisons. THEN the word 'average' could appear as needed. For example: "Swordsmanship: Advanced Proficiency; Character X is knows dozens of techniques and combat maneuvers and can hold his own against a newly inducted Raiaeran Bladesinger." Maybe give a little more information on what the character can do, but even that gives a far clearer idea than "Character X is an an above average swordsman."

That’s the nonsense that keeps “average” from being simple. It’s people overthinking it. I don’t think any concept is complicated until someone comes along to make it so. Plus, if I was a new member, would I even have an inkling about what a Raiaeran Bladesinger is? That’s specific, to the point where it’s more complicated, and as a brand new player to the site, without reading through every single almanac to create my simple warrior, I’m not going to know what to compare it to. I’m just going to compare it to the atypical fantasy soldier/mercenary or what have you.


The default should be letting the players do mostly what they want. Give friendly warnings, but then trust them to use common sense. If they don't, most others won't want to play with them, anyway. The system polices itself better than you might think.

If the “default” is to let the “players do mostly what they want” than what you’re asking for is free forum rp. And Althanas is not free forum. If the proposal was accepted, we’d be more free-forum than anything… and that would pretty much negate the necessity of exp, updates, levels, and whatever else is attributed to what makes Althanas what it is.

I know I said I liked the general idea, originally, but the more I see it being discussed and what’s being said… as well as examples of what a character would look like with this idea… I’m against it. I don’t like the free-forum expression of how the RoG would change, nor do I like the idea that those that have worked to be an expert with their skills, those that actually can do something compared to a level 0, are going to be useless characters now when compared to what new, never used, character that has yet to contribute to the site.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. First, this table is not listed anywhere in the "guides" to creating your character. This is what I was referring to as mysterious rules and made up regulation. Second, this table is great for soldier knowledge. How does this compare to a wizard's magical knowledge, a barbarian's ability to survive in nature, or a thief's ability to break in someplace? What, do we need to make tables for every possible skill?

It’s not hard, really. If it needs to be listed in a “guide”, I feel sorry for the people that would need it. It’s common sense. I can put it in a guide if you want, if that would make you feel better. Honestly though, look at what you asked… and then look back at what I said. Read a post before responding to it.


On that note, the skill scale in terms of average really doesn’t work with anything outside of skills, obviously.

That means that a wizard’s magical knowledge, Not a skill, doesn’t fit with the average scale. It’s like a general knowledge, like how to give first aid or cast a fireball. Barbarian’s ability to survive, is the exact same thing as what I just said. You can’t have an “average” ability to survive, because it’s not a skill it’s an ability, it’s like having above average strength… which we require people to actually write something about such as what they can lift/carry or 1.5x or 2x the average person their size. That adds a qualifier to an ability, “average” skill rankings is only for skills.


Funny, that former bit looks like you know the difference...

I’ll say again, “I'm not going to argue about what makes average to one person not average to another... because it's the same thing to me.” That is what I said then, that’s what I can use right now, because nothing about what I said is a change of position on the stance of average. I said what one person thinks is average compared to another doesn’t matter, because there isn’t a difference. They’re the “same thing to me”. As I put in the example of inept (sorry about the confusion) to mastered, there is no difference between anyone’s interpretation… because there really isn’t a lot of room to interpret anything differently… unless there is a confusion created from a person overly complicating the little aspects of the system, which seems to be the case more often than not.

If all you need is for me to list what the difference is for skills labeled as Average or Above Average, such as I did in that one post, then we don't need to change anything. I just need to clarify a very small thing that's apparently difficult to understand, and then we're all done with the issue.



@ Ataraxis: It doesn’t matter what you change the words to, it means the same thing no matter what.

[Christoph]

That’s the nonsense that keeps “average” from being simple. It’s people overthinking it. I don’t think any concept is complicated until someone comes along to make it so. Plus, if I was a new member, would I even have an inkling about what a Raiaeran Bladesinger is? That’s specific, to the point where it’s more complicated, and as a brand new player to the site, without reading through every single almanac to create my simple warrior, I’m not going to know what to compare it to. I’m just going to compare it to the atypical fantasy soldier/mercenary or what have you.

The problem is that average is far, far too easy to over-think Don't blame the people who over-think it. While the system that was the product of Zook, Ataraxis, and I has room for vagueness as well, it's still far less ambiguous than "average", and there's no need to include the qualifier "for an average X", especially when determining an average X is still almost impossible. Levels of training are more universally understood, and when combined with an example or two, it all becomes clear. I'll admit that Bladesingers were a bad example, but that's not really an issue. Let the player decide what they want to compare their skill to, whether to some traditional medieval soldier or some fantasy trope. Regardless, with that form, things will be mostly understood.



If the “default” is to let the “players do mostly what they want” than what you’re asking for is free forum rp. And Althanas is not free forum. If the proposal was accepted, we’d be more free-forum than anything… and that would pretty much negate the necessity of exp, updates, levels, and whatever else is attributed to what makes Althanas what it is.

I believe it's "free-form", but that's just me nitpicking. Furthermore, this proposal would not turn Althanas into the dreaded free-form RP forum. Not even close. Even with these new freedoms, starting characters would still have plenty of room to grow, improve, and gain power. New members would still want to improve -- they merely wouldn't be forced to slog trough four or more threads just to tell the lowest-tier story that they want to tell.


I know I said I liked the general idea, originally, but the more I see it being discussed and what’s being said… as well as examples of what a character would look like with this idea… I’m against it. I don’t like the free-forum expression of how the RoG would change, nor do I like the idea that those that have worked to be an expert with their skills, those that actually can do something compared to a level 0, are going to be useless characters now when compared to what new, never used, character that has yet to contribute to the site.

I don't even think you realize how elitist that sounds. "What? A new character can actually compete with a slightly less-new character? Heresy!" It's not like level one - three characters would LOSE anything; starting characters would just gain a little more freedom (let level 1 - 3 or 4 characters re-update if they're going to be upset -- things should even out by about level five). There might be a little irritation here or there, but nothing, NOTHING compared to the irritation felt by so many potential new members when they try to register a character.

I used to recruit all the time. I know first-hand that overly-strict character restrictions are why so many prospective members either don't bother joining or don't stick around. Can you even imagine my frustration at putting forth so much effort to bring life to a site that I cared about a great deal, only to be met with the same complaint almost every single time? And what am I supposed to say to them? "Well, you'll be notably better than, uh, than a peasant. But! If you do four or five threads, which will take a handful of months, you can level up and get a little better." Yeah, that doesn't work. Rules are to enhance fun. The current restrictive registration rules do the opposite of enhancing fun, and should thus be changed. This proposal fits the bill very well, and I'm saddened by your opposition to it.

[Letho]

The way I see it, Althanas is about as much a writing forum as it is an RPG. As such, going from zero to hero is what it's all about and that's the way it should stay. It's in that middle ground between a place with extremely strict rules that looks more like a game and a place where you can write what you want which is free form (or free-form :P). Some people don't like that. Well, guess what, there will always be people that won't like the system, regardless of how much we tweak it. I don't think we should shatter the balance that we have right now just so we could cater to those (potential) few who prefer something a bit different.

Beside, changing restrictions for level zero characters is somewhat of a slippery slope. Next thing you know, people are asking why can't they have a prevalida sword from the get go, or enchanted full-body armors made of titanium, or a staff that can burn half the forest. I exaggerate, I know, but if we start allowing people to get stronger characters because they justify it in their history, what's stopping them from asking the same with equipment? his father left him that sword, after all, so why can't he have it?

And then also you have level one people who worked hard to get there only to see people fresh to the site as strong as they are. Sure, we could let them do an update, but then level two gets pissed at level one. And so on, and so on. And then suddenly the balance of the entire system is out of whack. And then soon enough someone says, hey why don't we just switch to free-form and get rid of all the clusterfuck.

To hell with that. The system is fine. Perhaps it does lack some clarity and definition when it comes to what exactly is a strength of a level zero, but we can fix that by clarifying it and outlining it in the RoG. I'm not against one of this progression charts, to be honest, but only so we can outline the restrictions more clearly for those who are new and maybe don't understand how things work here.

[Taskmienster]

You beat me to it Letho, but I was about to just quote something you said in a different thread that made a lot of sense there as it does here::


It was a rudimentary example that shouldn't have been taken word for word, but it obviously was. All I know that back when I was starting out Letho was not very different from that very example, save for an additional combat ability that improved him stats a bit for a short while. All he had to his name was a sword, a breastplate, a pair of gauntlets and the clothes on his back. Yet in my first finished thread I wound up tackling a huge Chimera beast with Sword-for-hire, and in my second Letho fought a whole bunch of mercenaries on two occasions with two more people on his side, and he held his own in both cases. Got his ass kicked a bit, but held his own. So while he was not 'powerful' (and no character at level zero should be, regardless of what anyone says), he was, dare I say, competent?


EDIT: On a side note, my girlfriend just said something to me that made me laugh. She said "The site is about writing, and showing that you can write and develop a story and a character... about progressing your writing style and your story as you go. It's not supposed to be where you start a super powerful character from the start on some gaming site, where you can beat anyone else in a battle immediately. It seems that everyone's focused more on the amending the rules to get more from the start, and not focusing on being active and learning to write better."

On that note, even in RPG's your character starts with little to nothing. I played WoW for a while, and I know that when you start with a level 1 character you still have to do at least 4-5 piddly quests so that you can level and become stronger. Even in MMO's, which doesn't require you to write anything just follow the mindless path they put before you, you don't get to start out with some beast of a killing machine. Like everything, in games or on Althanas, there is a transition from a start to the ultimate conclusion. The difference is, when a person hits level 80 on WoW, they can just goof off doing the same thing all day, every day. On Althanas, a person get's to chose when their character's story is done, and they can do it however they want. I think that, at the heart of everything, is what makes Althanas both a writing forum and a game, one that is much better than mindless pixilated undead that I shoot with a bow for four hours to get 3 copper from each.

Restrictions are there, sure, but they're present in any game you can chose (Althanas, WoW, Warhammer, DnD, ect.) I personally don't like the way that DnD works, because I don't get it probably, but if someone sat down to explain it to me or there was a more concise way of clarifying what was going on, I'd undoubtedly be interested. Clarification is all that is required to get people, that are truly interested to begin with, to join in and play along. DnD doesn't need to change the entire way a new character is developed, neither does WoW, Althanas, or any other form of entertainment that people want to follow because the rules are there to make them unique. If a person has question, they can be asked easily enough, but if a person doesn't like the system, they simply won't play anyway.

It's the reason I don't write on free-forum sites, don't play WoW anymore, and things like that. Because I didn't care for the rules, so I just stopped playing. If they had changes, I might have liked them, but then the people that like the way the rules already were would then complain. This is a unique place, with its own specific qualities, and to change that could bring in new members, but could also shoo away old members. I know I wouldn't want to change every profile I have, and I wouldn't want my hard work over the years to suddenly mean nothing because of some change in the way the dynamics of the site (and what brought me here in the first place) happened.

[Letho]

Another thing, a sort of a surefire way to defeat some more difficult obstacles even if you fell your character is "weak". Work with other people. Two level zeros with different proficiencies working together can beat a significantly stronger opponent. And writing with other people is in my book the strongest aspect of this site.

[Christoph]

The way I see it, Althanas is about as much a writing forum as it is an RPG. As such, going from zero to hero is what it's all about and that's the way it should stay. It's in that middle ground between a place with extremely strict rules that looks more like a game and a place where you can write what you want which is free form (or free-form :P). Some people don't like that. Well, guess what, there will always be people that won't like the system, regardless of how much we tweak it. I don't think we should shatter the balance that we have right now just so we could cater to those (potential) few who prefer something a bit different.

Wait, what? I didn't realize that every story should be a coming-of-age or some variation on the 'farm boy becomes a hero' cliche. Want me to list novels where the major protagonists started out as rather formidable? Furthermore, please stop using strawman arguments. Nobody is advocating, "let players write absolutely whatever they want". We're advocating, "keep some rules, but ease up on restrictions so new players have more freedom to write the stories they want right away, while still offering the path of level advancement that we all know and love." We've all heard your, "If they don't like it, they can go elsewhere" party line. Guess what? They DID. That's why this site is dying. And do you honestly think allowing more freedom to starting characters will drive away everyone who likes the 'game aspect'? That's madness.


Beside, changing restrictions for level zero characters is somewhat of a slippery slope. Next thing you know, people are asking why can't they have a prevalida sword from the get go, or enchanted full-body armors made of titanium, or a staff that can burn half the forest. I exaggerate, I know, but if we start allowing people to get stronger characters because they justify it in their history, what's stopping them from asking the same with equipment? his father left him that sword, after all, so why can't he have it?

That's why, at LEAST for starting characters, equipment and abilities should be counted in the same pool, if you would. If a starting character wants to give up a fair amount potential abilities for a fancy family sword, then why the hell not? Keep it within reason, and who will it hurt? And beyond that, I trust in the staff's capability to set reasonable guidelines to prevent the feared slippery slope.

And then also you have level one people who worked hard to get there only to see people fresh to the site as strong as they are. Sure, we could let them do an update, but then level two gets pissed at level one. And so on, and so on. And then suddenly the balance of the entire system is out of whack. And then soon enough someone says, hey why don't we just switch to free-form and get rid of all the clusterfuck.

You vastly exaggerate the potential fallout. If a level 1 player is upset, let him update. Same for level two and three. Find an ideal level, probably around five, for things to even out. It's not that difficult. It will not destroy the balance of the site and lead to chaos and anarchy. And I highly doubt that allowing more freedom to starting characters while still keeping the fundamental structure of the system the same cause a collapse of the game system, leading to free-form. I will repeat, nobody is advocating free-form Althanas.


To hell with that. The system is fine. Perhaps it does lack some clarity and definition when it comes to what exactly is a strength of a level zero, but we can fix that by clarifying it and outlining it in the RoG. I'm not against one of this progression charts, to be honest, but only so we can outline the restrictions more clearly for those who are new and maybe don't understand how things work here.

All evidence points to the system NOT being fine. If the system were fine, I’d have had no trouble recruiting tons of good members back in the day, instead of losing 85% of them, many good writers, because of the starting character restrictions (not to mention the elitism that has spawned from it).




EDIT: On a side note, my girlfriend just said something to me that made me laugh. She said "The site is about writing, and showing that you can write and develop a story and a character... about progressing your writing style and your story as you go. It's not supposed to be where you start a super powerful character from the start on some gaming site, where you can beat anyone else in a battle immediately. It seems that everyone's focused more on the amending the rules to get more from the start, and not focusing on being active and learning to write better."

Again, this proposal would not let people start with "super-powerful characters". They're more on part with the current level 1.5 or so. The vast majority of current level 2s easily outclass them. If level 1-4 get irritated at losing their precious advantage, then let them do updates to bring them up to speed.


On that note, even in RPG's your character starts with little to nothing. I played WoW for a while, and I know that when you start with a level 1 character you still have to do at least 4-5 piddly quests so that you can level and become stronger. Even in MMO's, which doesn't require you to write anything just follow the mindless path they put before you, you don't get to start out with some beast of a killing machine. Like everything, in games or on Althanas, there is a transition from a start to the ultimate conclusion. The difference is, when a person hits level 80 on WoW, they can just goof off doing the same thing all day, every day. On Althanas, a person get's to chose when their character's story is done, and they can do it however they want. I think that, at the heart of everything, is what makes Althanas both a writing forum and a game, one that is much better than mindless pixilated undead that I shoot with a bow for four hours to get 3 copper from each.

But few people enjoy doing those piddly quests before getting anywhere. Furthermore, Althanas isn't WoW. We're here to write stories within the structure of a game. Therefore, it makes sense to let characters start at a place where they can do more than kill rats in the sewer or best peasants in combat -- because we're here to write good stories. Beyond that, the system would stay the same. There would still be that progression from start to super-awesome conclusion. This would just give new players an easier time of it. Is that really so bad?



It's the reason I don't write on free-forum sites, don't play WoW anymore, and things like that. Because I didn't care for the rules, so I just stopped playing. If they had changes, I might have liked them, but then the people that like the way the rules already were would then complain. This is a unique place, with its own specific qualities, and to change that could bring in new members, but could also shoo away old members. I know I wouldn't want to change every profile I have, and I wouldn't want my hard work over the years to suddenly mean nothing because of some change in the way the dynamics of the site (and what brought me here in the first place) happened.

What, shoo away all three old members? I mean, seriously. A number of old members are already advocating this proposal, and I highly doubt that any would leave just because those dastardly level zeros become a bit more powerful. The core system that we all love will stay the same. I cannot stress this enough. It's really not that much change. It's absolutely no fundamental change. It's just... tweaking. Often, some tweaking is better for everyone. New members get more freedom and don't feel stifled, old members have an easier time roleplaying with newbies without feeling like the level 0's can't do anything, and the core structure of the system remains the same. Everybody wins!

[Zook Murnig]

On that note, even in RPG's your character starts with little to nothing. I played WoW for a while, and I know that when you start with a level 1 character you still have to do at least 4-5 piddly quests so that you can level and become stronger. Even in MMO's, which doesn't require you to write anything just follow the mindless path they put before you, you don't get to start out with some beast of a killing machine. Like everything, in games or on Althanas, there is a transition from a start to the ultimate conclusion. The difference is, when a person hits level 80 on WoW, they can just goof off doing the same thing all day, every day. On Althanas, a person get's to chose when their character's story is done, and they can do it however they want. I think that, at the heart of everything, is what makes Althanas both a writing forum and a game, one that is much better than mindless pixilated undead that I shoot with a bow for four hours to get 3 copper from each.

This is exactly the argument that's been made in favor of changing things. People are sick of the site being treated like it's some MMORPG, where you have to do piddly little quests for months just to get anywhere. I don't know why you're so adamant that we stick with the "average" qualifiers, instead of using something less ambiguous like what Ataraxis suggested.

Further, even I am finding that you and Letho are sounding elitist, and I hold the two of you in high regard. Listen to yourselves. "We don't want to change the site because we don't think it needs it." Guess what? It clearly does. How many active players do we have right now? How many did we have two years ago? A year ago? Either the site dies because nothing is done, or we get off our asses on the first thing that anyone comes in contact with and fix it.


DnD doesn't need to change the entire way a new character is developed

Okay, that's is in itself flawed as an argument, because DnD did need to change the entire way characters work, as well as the rest of the system. And they did it. Not everyone was happy with it, no, but it brought in a much larger audience once they did it, and the majority of the people who played 3.5 and 3rd Edition were elated with 4th Edition. So, no, that's not a valid argument against change.


It's the reason I don't write on free-forum sites, don't play WoW anymore, and things like that. Because I didn't care for the rules, so I just stopped playing. If they had changes, I might have liked them, but then the people that like the way the rules already were would then complain. This is a unique place, with its own specific qualities, and to change that could bring in new members, but could also shoo away old members. I know I wouldn't want to change every profile I have, and I wouldn't want my hard work over the years to suddenly mean nothing because of some change in the way the dynamics of the site (and what brought me here in the first place) happened.

What old members, other than yourself and Letho, are you seeing complaining about the changes that are suggested? What old members would flip out if we changed the status quo? There are relatively few old members on the site, because they've all either been driven off, or because they don't want to write anymore for their own reasons. Forget about keeping the old members happy, because we need to focus on bringing in new members if any of the other changes that we're making are to be effective at all. Any of the combat related features that are on the table are reliant on having a large group of people using them. Bazaar changes are pointless if no one is around to use them.

WE NEED NEW PEOPLE

[Ataraxis]

New Level 0 Equivalency to Older Characters

You make them out to be gods or Mary Sues, which I find amazingly confusing. The pure-combat oriented example character profile I came up with barely holds a candle to Teric Bloodrose’s level 2 profile (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=11052). The Mutant Engineer? A level 0 character (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=20129) from the old system rivals him, AND has magic spells.

There is no drastic change happening here. The range of competence for starter characters has increased, to a point where people can write an old war vet like Teric intended to without having to write him as only slightly more competent than the typical upstart soldier. In no way are they the equivalents of a level 3 or above, battle-oriented character, just because they have a few more advanced skills in using swords and hand to hand combat, or because they actually know how to pick locks and disarm booby traps.

Summary: In terms of overall competence, level 0s under these guidelines would not be stronger than a level 2 character under the old guidelines. By readjusting the update curve, level 4 and 5 characters approved under the old system and those approved with these guidelines would be equivalent in ‘power’. Here’s for your viewing convenience.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h158/Necathys/ChartforChange-1.png

Is it that much change? Would you prefer I call it tweaking? There IS such a thing as win-win for everyone.


Overall Power vs. Good Writing and Character Development

We don’t allow gods. We don’t allow unbeatable, one-kill characters. How can anyone even THINK that’s what these guidelines advocate? There’s a whole paragraph explaining how that’s ridiculous. No one is removing any of the room for growth we all love in Althanas. This only gives the option of cutting to the chase, skipping to the actual growth some people would rather write about.

If you want to start off as an upstart with minimum skill, because you enjoy writing the development from the beginning to the end, perfect! If you want to write a character in his thirties who’s gone through military training already? Someone who’s gone through hard years living with his continuously-developing mutant powers? A sorcerer who can cast fireballs that are, gasp, bigger than a football? A techno-genius? You can too! Are any of these gods, or over-powered? Hell no. They’re just awesome to read about.

They’re all perfectly realistic within a fantasy realm, and are conducive to equally great stories, just of different nature. With the current restrictions, people are forced to go with the zero-to-hero (or not-so-zero-but-still-to-hero) aspect, but this guideline allows an alternate Hey!-not-too-shabby-at-all-to-hero path, on top of that.

Summary: It’s not because people can start writing with the characters they had envisioned that suddenly we’re breaking the game. The range of powers is bigger, they can be more skilled, we’d be more lenient with approval as long as it’s for the sake of their story, not for their secret plan to abuse our kindness and trust. They can stick to their concept, they still have room to grow, but they don’t have to look at their profiles and make a face. The quality of writing on Althanas is not threatened. In fact, it’ll very likely be the opposite.


Impact of the Proposed Guidelines on characters under the Current System

My last profile is a level 5 one. Under these new guidelines, I will not resubmit a different profile. It’ll end up the exact same except maybe for one combat skill that’d be higher than intermediate. I’m not re-registering for that.

Characters already registered and that are still level 0 can re-register. If it makes them write, then also let level 1s and 2s and 3s reregister too (I doubt 4s will bother, since there’ll be so little change at that point). What’s the point of the hard work of every past and present RoG mod if only one out of ten approved characters ever writes (and 9 out of ten of those who do write, stop writing within the month)? Do you really call that hard work useful work? Fulfilling work? The RoG team isn’t the internet police. The RoG team is made of helpers and teachers. Rather than weeding out that garden of unused profiles, maybe we should try watering them whenever new seeds wander in. Wouldn't we be so much prouder of our work then?

I’d be happy to see newcomers happy. I don’t mind if their characters become stronger than mine when they reach the same level as mine, as long as they’re having fun writing great stories with them. And don’t think that all characters under these guidelines automatically start out stronger – they don’t need to.

Summary: No impact. Well, other than a positive one.

[Atzar]

Rather than weeding out that garden of unused profiles, maybe we should try watering them whenever new seeds wanders in.

"We should be guiding their cocks, not blocking them!"

Thank you, Superbad.

[Letho]

Wait, what? I didn't realize that every story should be a coming-of-age or some variation on the 'farm boy becomes a hero' cliche. Want me to list novels where the major protagonists started out as rather formidable? Furthermore, please stop using strawman arguments. Nobody is advocating, "let players write absolutely whatever they want". We're advocating, "keep some rules, but ease up on restrictions so new players have more freedom to write the stories they want right away, while still offering the path of level advancement that we all know and love." We've all heard your, "If they don't like it, they can go elsewhere" party line. Guess what? They DID. That's why this site is dying. And do you honestly think allowing more freedom to starting characters will drive away everyone who likes the 'game aspect'? That's madness.Madness? This is Althanas!!!

Jokes aside, this is once again about what you want to see in the current system. During my time on Althanas I've created maybe six or seven characters in total. None of them fit you "famboy becomes a hero" mold. Hell, Letho (as corny as it sounds now) was an exiled prince that was trained in the art of combat from early age. My alternate character Victor was a professional boxer who almost wound up being a champion of Scara Brae. All at level zero. I won't list the rest, but suffice to say it can be done. More so, it can be done very easily and it's fun. It takes some creativity, but shucks, we don't want our members doing that.

That's why, at LEAST for starting characters, equipment and abilities should be counted in the same pool, if you would. If a starting character wants to give up a fair amount potential abilities for a fancy family sword, then why the hell not? Keep it within reason, and who will it hurt? And beyond that, I trust in the staff's capability to set reasonable guidelines to prevent the feared slippery slope.So what exactly is a fair amount of potential abilities? All this would end up doing is cause more headache for the RoG staff. Because if you leave it up to the mod discretion, then this will differ from one profile to the other just as much as it would differ from one mod to the other and people bitch about inconsistency. And if you leave it up to math, people bitch about the lack of freedom. Sounds like lose-lose situation to me.

You vastly exaggerate the potential fallout. If a level 1 player is upset, let him update. Same for level two and three. Find an ideal level, probably around five, for things to even out. It's not that difficult. It will not destroy the balance of the site and lead to chaos and anarchy. And I highly doubt that allowing more freedom to starting characters while still keeping the fundamental structure of the system the same cause a collapse of the game system, leading to free-form. I will repeat, nobody is advocating free-form Althanas.Yes, I know I exaggerated. In fact, I believe I said so myself in that post. It was merely to try and prove the potential degradation to free-form, well, more free-formy system anyways. Because it's in human nature that, once you give them a finger, they soon enough go for the whole hand.

All evidence points to the system NOT being fine. If the system were fine, I’d have had no trouble recruiting tons of good members back in the day, instead of losing 85% of them, many good writers, because of the starting character restrictions (not to mention the elitism that has spawned from it).The system has been working for longer than you or even I have been on Althanas. And I'm pretty certain that even back in the day, about 85% of people who gave it a shot gave up on it. Althanas isn't for everyone, but I guess by now everybody knows my standpoint on this. Are we currently in a slump? Certainly. But you know what could help activity more than people writing some 20-odd pages about level zero restrictions? People writing 20-odd pages in an IC subforum.

Further, even I am finding that you and Letho are sounding elitist, and I hold the two of you in high regard. Listen to yourselves. "We don't want to change the site because we don't think it needs it." Guess what? It clearly does. How many active players do we have right now? How many did we have two years ago? A year ago? Either the site dies because nothing is done, or we get off our asses on the first thing that anyone comes in contact with and fix it.Frankly, I'm a bit tired of being accused of elitism. In my time on Althanas I wrote with new and old members alike, never treated any of the newbies with scorn, never chased any of them away (though did try to chase some of the old ones ;)). In truth, Althanas right now is a much more hospitable place than it was when I was starting off and mods are much more approachable and communicative. So if that makes me elitist, I'd hope that we're all a bit elitist nowadays. I'm not trying to hold on to the old ways because I want the new people to have a hard time. I'm trying to uphold them because I've seen them work over a very long period of time.

@Ataraxis

In a perfect world, that curve would go like that. In reality, the two lines never merge and the new generation level zero goes on on a parallel course, constantly being more stronger than his counterparts, especially at later levels. It's all fine and dandy to say that we should trust people, but in my book trust needs to be earned, not given freely. That's the reason why vets sometimes get away with some vaguely defined skills; because we trust them not to abuse them. Now you're saying we should trust people completely unfamiliar to our system the same way we do vets?

[Zook Murnig]

Frankly, I'm a bit tired of being accused of elitism. In my time on Althanas I wrote with new and old members alike, never treated any of the newbies with scorn, never chased any of them away (though did try to chase some of the old ones ;)). In truth, Althanas right now is a much more hospitable place than it was when I was starting off and mods are much more approachable and communicative. So if that makes me elitist, I'd hope that we're all a bit elitist nowadays. I'm not trying to hold on to the old ways because I want the new people to have a hard time. I'm trying to uphold them because I've seen them work over a very long period of time.

Wow, way to go. You completely diffused my points by completely missing the first one. I'm not accusing you of elitism. I'm accusing of acting elitist. Now, let's have a look at your next paragraph to show an example.


Now you're saying we should trust people completely unfamiliar to our system the same way we do vets?

[Letho]

And that's your proof? That I put more trust in people I've seen use the system properly time and time again than in those that have never used it or did anything to earn that trust? That's not elitism. It's being prudent.

[Atzar]

The system has been working for longer than you or even I have been on Althanas. And I'm pretty certain that even back in the day, about 85% of people who gave it a shot gave up on it.

But how is that a good thing? "It's always been this way" doesn't really seem like a valid point in this case. If it's always driven 85% of prospective members away from the site, then methinks something should have been done about it a long time ago. A 15% success rate with new members isn't something I'd care to advertise on the front page.

[Duffy]

Where are these statistics coming from exactly?

What's more, as is atypical of this sort of complaint, very few people have considered their own role in the lull of activity. The system can only ever be blamed to X extent, especially when the people complaining can increase activity and encourage the use of this site in tandem with any changes, revisions or discussions that are currently ongoing. I am neither defending or agreeing with the suggestions revision to the RoG system, I am merely pointing out, once more, that activity works when the moderators and 'veterans' of this site get involved with newcomers.

I warrant Cade-Smith, Alister, Ulysses, Revenant and the like will continue to use this forum allot longer than most have done recently because they have something to bring them together outside of the solo 'rat in sewer' vein you're all so adamant exists. I don't know about you guys, but I'm out there with whatever convoluted and lack-lustre talent you suppose ensuring that what members we do get remain.

Stick around here all you like - the problem is not with getting people here, getting them through the approval process, it's keeping them here and encouraging them. That's the very idea of Althanas, 'active improvement.' Not that I need to tell you that, but it certainly needs to be re-iterated.

Change the system, or not, all it will do is give our new player base a higher level of perceived power but this will not negate the abyss between higher level 'talent' and those who are newly arrived. It might give people better prospects, sure, but so will clarification of the RoG system, and so will increasing activity by indulging in a little role-playing, isn't that a novel idea?

[Atzar]

The statistic is fairly meaningless by itself - I doubt any of us know whether exactly 15% of prospective members end up sticking around, and it also doesn't matter. The point is in the concept - we believe that, with this tweak, the success rate will increase. Whether it's 5%, 15%, or 50%, that's a worthwhile goal.

[Christoph]

Madness? This is Althanas!!!

Jokes aside, this is once again about what you want to see in the current system. During my time on Althanas I've created maybe six or seven characters in total. None of them fit you "famboy becomes a hero" mold. Hell, Letho (as corny as it sounds now) was an exiled prince that was trained in the art of combat from early age. My alternate character Victor was a professional boxer who almost wound up being a champion of Scara Brae. All at level zero. I won't list the rest, but suffice to say it can be done. More so, it can be done very easily and it's fun. It takes some creativity, but shucks, we don't want our members doing that.

Of course this about what we want to see in the current system. It's what we think the system NEEDS. Also, since when would offering new players a little more freedom stifle creativity? It wouldn't; that's a silly implication. Many potential new players feel their creativity STIFLED by the current restrictions, not stimulated. And pointed out examples of "how I did it" doesn't cut it. Not everyone is you, and has the same ideas and tastes and preferences as you do.


So what exactly is a fair amount of potential abilities? All this would end up doing is cause more headache for the RoG staff. Because if you leave it up to the mod discretion, then this will differ from one profile to the other just as much as it would differ from one mod to the other and people bitch about inconsistency. And if you leave it up to math, people bitch about the lack of freedom. Sounds like lose-lose situation to me.

I'm sure you guys can figure it out. Come up with a decent working system for how starting items measure up against starting intrinsic skills and stick to it. Is the RoG staff incapable of staying at all consistent (not that anybody truly expects 100% consistency anyway)?


Yes, I know I exaggerated. In fact, I believe I said so myself in that post. It was merely to try and prove the potential degradation to free-form, well, more free-formy system anyways. Because it's in human nature that, once you give them a finger, they soon enough go for the whole hand.

Except hyperbole proves nothing; it's a logically fallacious premise. And god, stop quaking in fear over how some more freedom will ruin your Althanas. It really is ridiculous.


The system has been working for longer than you or even I have been on Althanas. And I'm pretty certain that even back in the day, about 85% of people who gave it a shot gave up on it. Althanas isn't for everyone, but I guess by now everybody knows my standpoint on this. Are we currently in a slump? Certainly. But you know what could help activity more than people writing some 20-odd pages about level zero restrictions? People writing 20-odd pages in an IC subforum.

Maybe we could have avoided the current slump if we'd fixed the new member turnover problem years ago. Saying, "Althanas isn't for everyone" is ridiculous. When a business starts losing customers and money, they don't just say, "Well, I guess we're just not for everyone." They try to fix their limitations to stay in business. We should try to make it as accessible as possible while keeping the core fundamentals intact. That is what this proposal does.


Frankly, I'm a bit tired of being accused of elitism. In my time on Althanas I wrote with new and old members alike, never treated any of the newbies with scorn, never chased any of them away (though did try to chase some of the old ones ;)). In truth, Althanas right now is a much more hospitable place than it was when I was starting off and mods are much more approachable and communicative. So if that makes me elitist, I'd hope that we're all a bit elitist nowadays. I'm not trying to hold on to the old ways because I want the new people to have a hard time. I'm trying to uphold them because I've seen them work over a very long period of time.

If you tire of being accused of elitism, perhaps you should act less elitist. Just a thought. It's acting elitist when you demand that every new member earn our trust. They should be entitled to our trust from the start, and if they make a mistake, we help them out. That sounds better than alienating them. The number of veteran and established members has been shrinking and shrinking. Soon, there won't be anyone here 'worthy' of your trust. What then? How's about we improve the chances of newcomers actually becoming vets? We give more trust in the beginning, and they'll 'earn' more of your trust as they go.


@Ataraxis

In a perfect world, that curve would go like that. In reality, the two lines never merge and the new generation level zero goes on on a parallel course, constantly being more stronger than his counterparts, especially at later levels. It's all fine and dandy to say that we should trust people, but in my book trust needs to be earned, not given freely. That's the reason why vets sometimes get away with some vaguely defined skills; because we trust them not to abuse them. Now you're saying we should trust people completely unfamiliar to our system the same way we do vets?

What are you basing that first statement on? Nothing. It's baseless. You're essentially suggesting that the RoG staff is incapable of keeping level five and higher characters at least as balanced as they are now (which isn't really that balanced, anyway). If the RoG mods can't handle that, then they clearly have no business running the RoG. I have more faith in their competence than THAT. Just have a few example character profiles for each level and do the best you can to keep them consistent. You guys can handle that.



Duffy: As I've said time and again: I've been in the trenches trying to recruit new members, because I loved this place. If we'd made these tweaks a year or two ago, I would have gotten three our four times (not even an exaggeration) more members to join and/or stay. I think that's worth tweaking things for.

[Ulysses]

I warrant Cade-Smith, Alister, Ulysses, Revenant and the like will continue to use this forum allot longer than most have done recently because they have something to bring them together outside of the solo 'rat in sewer' vein you're all so adamant exists.

Hey hey, that's me! :D

Well nobody asked for my opinion, but frankly the level 0 restrictions and modifications to my profile didn't bother me much. Would I mind having more skills? Obviously not. But I didn't think the restrictions were that bad. It wasn't so much that I'd like more powerful skills as a greater diversity of skills, and that not because I want to be OMG GODm0DE but because it offers a greater variety of rping possibilities.

Honestly, my only complaint with the RoG would be that it isn't spelled out somewhere exactly what the restrictions are. I was fine with following them, I just...didn't know what they were. Wouldn't that save the RoG mods a lot of time, too? I mean, if people knew the guidelines and therefore started out with profiles that worked, you wouldn't have to bother asking them to change them much more of the time...just a thought.

I also still think the average/above average is just confusing terminology. Or frankly, it is confusing but it would probably be ok if it was just explained somewhere.

[Atzar]

Well nobody asked for my opinion...

I'm glad you decided to post anyway. Everybody who reads this is more than welcome - no, encouraged - to post here with their own take. It's valued, and it's appreciated.


but frankly the level 0 restrictions and modifications to my profile didn't bother me much. Would I mind having more skills? Obviously not. But I didn't think the restrictions were that bad.

Honestly, my only complaint with the RoG would be that it isn't spelled out somewhere exactly what the restrictions are. I was fine with following them, I just...didn't know what they were. Wouldn't that save the RoG mods a lot of time, too? I mean, if people knew the guidelines and therefore started out with profiles that worked, you wouldn't have to bother asking them to change them much more of the time...just a thought.

I also still think the average/above average is just confusing terminology. Or frankly, it is confusing but it would probably be ok if it was just explained somewhere.

I agree with that fact, and I hope this is decided and implemented sooner rather than later.

Incidentally... A question for you, Ulysses (and anybody else who reads this): Would Althanas still be just as cool if the RoG's restrictions were relaxed? Could you see how it would make the site more inviting for some? On the other side of that coin, how would it make the site less inviting?

I ask this because I'm looking for a little bit of perspective, and maybe somebody else can help me out with this. I can definitely see how it would make Althanas more inviting, but I can't for the life of me come up with a good answer for the last question.

[Ulysses]

I'm glad you decided to post anyway. Everybody who reads this is more than welcome - no, encouraged - to post here with their own take. It's valued, and it's appreciated.

Well I have been reading all the posts in the "resume" thread, and the ones here as they crop up. It's definitely interesting, I just don't know how much people care about a member's opinion who's only been here two weeks ^^;

But since you're asking, anyway...

I think it would be a little bit nice, as I said in my post above, not to really have much more powerful skills, but just to have a greater diversity of skills. My character concept was sort of a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none kind of deal, and I definitely cut down on the number of skills I would have liked to possess. I did that simply based on browsing through the approved characters in the registration archive and seeing what was the "norm." So, while the restrictions didn't really bother me or scare me away, I certainly don't think a relaxation would hurt. It certainly would help me to write more, honestly. As I said above, the restrictions weren't that unreasonable, it's certainly possible to have fun writing even with them, but I guess not everyone would see it that way. I care more about my character's personality and his adventures than having him be super powerful, but not all new members are going to feel that way I suspect.

It is a bit disheartening to have to change your character concept to meet with the regulations, that's true. I was a little bit sad about it, and I suppose I might have gone somewhere else if I hadn't started such fun threads with people like Duffy and Alister. But I'm glad I stayed, this is quite a cool site, and I think it helps with writing skills a lot!

I personally enjoy starting with a weakish character and watching him build up to new heights of power. That, for me, is fun. And I think people would still be able to do that under relaxed restrictions!

I sort of think that increasing power is being confused with character development. It's not the same thing. Going from Average Swordsmanship to Above Average swordsmanship to Expert Swordsmanship...blablabla, isn't really character development. Or it is to some extent, but that's more like going up levels in a videogame than anything else. I always thought that character development in fiction entailed more internal changes than anything else. Am I wrong in thinking that? All I'm trying to say is, if the old folks are afraid that decreasing level 0 restrictions will hamper character development, I don't really think it will. If anything, it encourages a more interesting sort of character development. Instead of writing pages and pages about increasing your sword skill, you could do more interesting stuff.

Or at least, it wouldn't hurt or scare away new members. So no, I don't think it would make the site less inviting. The people who have concerns seem to mostly be older, more experienced members who fear that their own characters will be threatened by changes. Am I right in that? I don't think that's the only concern they have, but that is one of them.

I thought the graph Ataraxis made pretty nicely explained why that might not be a problem after all. But maybe I'm just a sucker for graphs? Heh. (Seriously, graphs are awesome.) I think that it would be up to the RoG mods to ensure that the new, more powerful level 0s don't end up more powerful at higher levels. I don't think it'll be that hard to keep the level 4s all at about the same power level.

Oh, that reminds me of something I was thinking of earlier...since when are the level 0s equivalent in power as it is now? I...it doesn't really seem that way to me, is all. I didn't even think they were supposed to be. This isn't just from looking at other level 0 character's profiles, either. It shows up more when you read people's threads and the way they play their characters--especially in the Citadel, I think. But my impression has been that there's a vast difference in power levels.

Oh dear, I didn't mean to make this long ^^; Sorry if I ended up rambling or making a fool of myself. I obviously don't have the experience that anyone else does with the site, these are just my observations, and I'm sure I'm probably wrong.

[Duffy]

It's funny.

The person that's been here the least amount of time is making the most sense.

[Ulysses]

It's funny.

The person that's been here the least amount of time is making the most sense.

*shuffles feet awkwardly* Haha, thanks? ^^;

Gah! I didn't mean to get embroiled in forum drama on a site I just joined two weeks ago! D: I mean, there's people here who have been here for like a DECADE. Now everyone hates me! DDD: *flails arms wildly in the air*

[Ataraxis]

I'm really grateful you decided to speak openly and honestly, Ulysses. And I agree with Duffy that you're making the most sense, since you summed the situation up pretty awesomely.

We've got our baggage on both sides of the fence, so thank you (and Shadai, and Michelle) very much for your unbiased opinion. I think this thread would profit if more of the new members of Althanas gave their observations like you did, since this is pretty much meant for all of you guys.

It can't be fun to hear us bicker back and forth like this, so rather than making this even more unwelcoming for the people that matter, I'd suggest we (we know who we are) give it a rest for now and let other people take the floor - like Allister, Revenant or Cade, if you're reading this.

[Christoph]

Thanks for the input, Ulysses. It's always good to have fresh viewpoints, and you summed it up pretty well. I figure, if nobody will be hurt by it, then it's worth implementing if it will help other members.

[Ulysses]

I'm really grateful you decided to speak openly and honestly, Ulysses. And I agree with Duffy that you're making the most sense, since you summed the situation up pretty awesomely.

We've got our baggage on both sides of the fence, so thank you (and Shadai, and Michelle) very much for your unbiased opinion. I think this thread would profit if more of the new members of Althanas gave their observations like you did, since this is pretty much meant for all of you guys.

It can't be fun to hear us bicker back and forth like this, so rather than making this even more unwelcoming for the people that matter, I'd suggest we (we know who we are) give it a rest for now and let other people take the floor - like Allister, Revenant or Cade, if you're reading this.

Aw, thanks. Wait dude. Did you see the part where I said I loved your graph? Because graphs are indeed amazing. :cool:

Ha, it actually is kind of fun to watch. You could put out a new advertisement:

ALTHANAS! ACTION! DRAMA! ANCIENT GRUDGES AND BETRAYALS! BATTLES OF EPIC PROPORTIONS! and that's just in the OOC section! ALSO GRAPHS!

Plus that Godhand dude is pretty funny. I think so, anyway. He was making me lol. The "fuckspensive" post seriously made me rofl. I actually sent it to my girlfriend and she was like ?_? and I was like ha, I guess it only is funny if you know what he's talking about. Not even saying that I agreed or disagreed with him, I honestly have no opinion on the whole Bazaar issue, I just thought it was hilarious.

But um yeah, I'd be interested to hear what people like Revenant and Case think as well, if they've been following this debate as closely as I have been. I haven't seen Alister around for a while though, sadly...


Thanks for the input, Ulysses. It's always good to have fresh viewpoints, and you summed it up pretty well. I figure, if nobody will be hurt by it, then it's worth implementing if it will help other members.
Yeah, that seems right to me too. I can certainly see why some of the older members would be concerned, I'm just not entirely sure that it's warranted, assuming that the RoG mods keep a close eye on things to make sure that things even out after a few levels.

But um yeah...I think that's everything I have to say, I'll stop looking like an idiot and I'll going to go back to writing IC stuff, which is more fun anyway! So good luck with your whole little debate thing. I'll keep reading it though. *thumbs up*

[Atzar]

*shuffles feet awkwardly* Haha, thanks? ^^;

Gah! I didn't mean to get embroiled in forum drama on a site I just joined two weeks ago! D: I mean, there's people here who have been here for like a DECADE. Now everyone hates me! DDD: *flails arms wildly in the air*

I'd also like to echo Christoph and Ataraxis in thanking you for your response. It was a very useful, valuable point of view.

[Zook Murnig]

Thanks for the input, Ulysses. It's always good to have fresh viewpoints, and you summed it up pretty well. I figure, if nobody will be hurt by it, then it's worth implementing if it will help other members.

Exactly, and I agree with the above posters that we appreciate your input, Ulysses. The very opinions which are most valuable in this discussion are those of the new members, so don't be shy about telling us what you think.

[Ulysses]

Heh, thanks to Zook and Atzar too. ^^ *blush* XD I still think people who've been around for years probably have more valuable opinions on this than myself.

[Esmerelda]

The old system, it merely lacks that one person who'll stick with you and help you out while you get started. Not the RoG mod who approves you, but someone else, who doesn't seem like an authority figure. The number of abilities are fine, as no matter how many abilities one gives a new character, it'll never be enough for everyone. You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

While I would very much love having one or two additional skills for level 0, and one, possibly level two too, beyond that I can't fathom the need for it. The primary problem stems from lack of activity, and one set of rules regarding roleplay, is no different from any other, the only truly free-form RP one can attain, is when one writes one's own stories offline, guided only by your own mind. Therefore because this is not that, the current rules are perfectly suitable for our purposes.

What we truly need, is a sort of mentoring program, made up of non-staffers, whose sole duty would be to help newcomers adjust, and come to understand the site. That, in my opinion, is the largest blockade, is the lack of understanding. This is backed up by an earlier statement from Ulysses. If adjusting terminology would help that along, than let it be done.

Otherwise, the only other problem I can think of, from personal experience, is that of Ego and Pride. It seemed Witchblade didn't embrace my vision as I did, and so offended, I left. I came back of course, and successfully registered Esmerelda, but only after changing my own personal outlook on life. What I'm saying is, a good portion of those who register, only to vanish into the ether, most likely did so because their vision got so distorted and warped from what they had in mind, that they could no longer endure being here, and went to go find some place where they wouldn't have to change.

We can't fix ego. Everyone must at some point adapt to the rules and laws by which others live. Even professional authors must yield in part to the demands of their editors, and so too must new players yield to the althanian framework of rules. Yet, by this same coin, having said all that I have, we must also be a little more giving, within the current rules. At least one good step forward, in any event, would be the aforementioned Mentorship program, coupled with a slight more logical rewording of skill terminology. I see variations of the same thing in place already, surely an official alternative wouldn't be all that harmful.

[Max Dirks]

For those of you harking about a return to flexibility in the Realm of Greeting, I present to you the original guidelines:
The Character Sheet
Getting your character approved is easy. Simply fill out this character sheet, and then copy/paste what you wrote into a new thread in the Character/PG Registration Forum. That's all there is to it. Once you've posted the thread, one of our Approval Moderators will then read your thread, and if they feel it needs anything added to it or taken away, they'll ask you to change it. Once they feel that your character sheet is acceptable, they will then approve you and you may begin role-playing at Althanas!
A few notes and tips on filling out some of the parts of your character sheet:
1) Your Character's History: You should make your character's history as detailed and as creative as possible. The more history your character has, the more interesting stories you will be able to write about him when you begin role-playing. However, be careful not to use cliches, or other commonly used storylines. It seems that every other character's parents were killed in some accident or murder, and that their death let the character to become a hero. Here at Althanas, we hear that history so many times that it gets really, really, really, really boring. Try to create a history as fresh and unique as possible, and if you can, maybe tie it into a bit of Althanas history. You can find the Althanas history page here.
2) Starting Equipment: Each character can start out with several pieces of equipment. These pieces include clothing, food rations, ONE weapon, a set of armor, and other basic amenities. You may NOT start out with any sort of powerful magic item of any kind. Those are for finding later in a quest, or for purchase at The Bazaar. If your starting equipment is deemed too powerful, a moderator may ask you to change it.
3) Choosing Skills and Spells: You may choose several skills for your character to start out with. Describe them as best you can, but remember that you're a Level 0 character, and that your skills shouldn't be very powerful and in some cases, barely developed. If you want a semi-powerful skill when you start out, a good idea might be to limit your character to just one beginning skill. You can always add more later when you level up.One weapon? One set of armor? One semi-powerful skill?

Our newer members' characters are loads more powerful starting off than our original members' characters were.

[Logan]

Wow. I remember those rules. Lol.

Very valid point, Max.

Esmerelda made a good one, too. I'd be interested to see some kind of mentor program worked up, but I'm not really sure how it'd work out.

[Christoph]

For those of you harking about a return to flexibility in the Realm of Greeting, I present to you the original guidelines: One weapon? One set of armor? One semi-powerful skill?

Our newer members' characters are loads more powerful starting off than our original members' characters were.

Nobody is talking about what it is now compared to what it was then. We're talking about what it is now and how it can be made better for the improvement of Althanas. So... I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make.

I wouldn't be opposed to a mentoring system (assuming there are enough incentives to make it work), but that won't save all the same problems that this proposal will, at least, not by itself. I would do both, though discussing on a mentoring system should probably have its own thread.

[MetalDrago]

For those of you harking about a return to flexibility in the Realm of Greeting, I present to you the original guidelines: One weapon? One set of armor? One semi-powerful skill?

Our newer members' characters are loads more powerful starting off than our original members' characters were.

Geeze, I'd completely forgotten about those guidelines... I thought that was an unneccessary pain in the neck even when I was a new member, and that... wow... I feel old. Anyway, yeah, a lot of the guidelines from back in the day were a lot more restrictive than they are now, but as people have said, even within this thread, sometimes there's a need for a site, a forum, to evolve to meet the needs of the next generation that's coming along. Let's face it guys, none of us can honestly say we'll always have the drive, free time, or even ability to come to this site for the rest of our lives, and once we're gone, it's up to the next generation to either take up what we leave behind (assuming there is a next generation) or to change it into something else, preferably something better.

I see no problem, myself, in changing the RoG, as long as it's kept within reason, and I think our RoG mods have more than enough ability to determine what 'within reason' is. Ok, so levels 0-3 turn out to be a bit stronger than before, as far as certain skills, but need I remind anyone on the site that there are more ways to play than just through sheer combat or questing against powerful monsters, creatures, and other random baddies? If you're worried about character building, I think someone already covered this, but starting off with the skills you actually need to tell the story you want to tell might not be such a bad idea.

Offering more skills doesn't need to be seen as the characters garnering more power, but instead as the writers starting the character at a level where it would be feasible for them to write the story they want to write, instead of having to grind up to level 2 before the character is ready for them to actually get started on the actual story they envisioned when they came here...

Also, I know I'm a bit of a unique case... I've been playing MetalDrago since sometime about 2002 and I'm still only level 2. Also, as far as the name, I was twelve, give me a break.

Back to the topic at hand. I think the system Ataraxis brought up is more than fair with dealing with new members. I'm against turning this into a completely free-form RP, as much as Task is, but this is not free-form. Trust me, I know. Between my periodic absences, I've been on free-form sites, and trust me, I would not wish that on Althanas, the only RP site I've ever truly been able to call my home away from home.

I love this site, I don't ever want to see it die, and I think this is actually a very good way to ensure that this site lives on through the next batch of kids and kids-at-heart who come through, who like the idea, and have the creativity and drive to make this place great. Althanas has experienced slumps in the past and recovered. We even recovered from two major crashes before. We should not let this site die for no reason. I haven't posted in the Resume topic, because by the time I finished reading it, I kinda... didn't want to, but I still see this topic as something we could build on.

One thing is clear to me, above all other things. Something's gotta give, or the site might die. I think things need to change, as far as rules, but I also agree with something else that has been said.


The system can only ever be blamed to X extent, especially when the people complaining can increase activity and encourage the use of this site in tandem with any changes, revisions or discussions that are currently ongoing.

Thanks to Duffy Bracken for that little tidbit. New members isn't all we need. We vets, and yes, I'm including myself because I'm just as guilty, need to get back into the thick of things, including RPing with the new players instead of each generation only playing with people from his generation. I don't know about you guys, but the Class of '02 is beginning to thin out a little bit. I'm going to also relay something Tony has said before as well, though probably not in his exact words.

"Just because you're not on the staff doesn't mean you can't do something to help the site."

Besides the discussions concerning the rules, we should all join some new threads, make some, RP, get to know some new members, do a meet-and-greet, something! Anyway, I think I've rambled on long enough. Take what I've said for what it is.

[Izvilvin]

The notion of veterans questing with new members is something we've toyed with in the past, and something many of us have pledged to do in the past. Some (Letho, Cory are the ones of note that I can think of on the spot) did that, but some of us didn't. It's sort of hard to balance many threads at once, what with real-life, and if you're trying to focus on your own story, and trying to post with the people you already like to post with, your friends, your character's friends, it can be a lot.

But that's no bloody excuse I guess.

[MetalDrago]

I never pointed anyone out, nor will I... I know I've been getting swallowed more and more into my work in college, and I haven't devoted near as much of my free time as I should to this site... as far as a social schedule, I don't really have one, so I have free time from school being out till I hit the bed.

Le shrug.

All I'm saying is that those of us who do have the free time, especially those of us who are advocating change, should also be willing to accept that we need to step up our activity a bit too. Again, I'm not pointing any fingers, except at myself, because I know I'm guilty. Everyone has their reasons, but I'm just saying that ideally, we could all use with a little step up in activity on top of the changes I've seen advocated in this thread.

[Izvilvin]

I was the only one pointing people out :p For good reasons. To give praise.

But yes I agree. I haven't been back for very long or anything, I just wanted to share a little bit of what I remember on the subject. I also know that a lot of new folk disappear and some hard work goes down the drain, which is a deterrent sometimes. But I'm a pussy.

:D

[Duffy]

I guess I'm fortunate I'm so engrossed in my assignments and dissertation research I naturally gravitate towards living at my computer anyway, naturally, I wasn't expecting everyone to do the same.

[Godhand]

So where did we land on this?

[Death's Nephew]

I think it's "Punch and pie"for the new members and "dirty old bread" for the old members.

[Godhand]

How so? Didn't everyone agree that you should be able to re-upload your profile if you felt boned?

[Letho]

The exact course of action is still being decided on. And by that I don't mean we sit around twiddling our thumbs, but actually considering all aforementioned aspects before a decision is made. Thank you for your patience and have a nice day. :)

[Death's Nephew]

How so? Didn't everyone agree that you should be able to re-upload your profile if you felt boned?

True, but then we'd be stuck basically into this "class" style system. So we'd redo them to fit into neat little slots. Sure, the triangle doesn't have as much surface area has than the hexagon, but that hexagon will fit into the triangle's spot just fine once you shave a few sides down.

At least its optional. :rolleyes:

[Godhand]

Are you...Bitching about how having more skills limits you?

[Death's Nephew]

Are you...Bitching about how having more skills limits you?

What? No.

You basically start out as a class. A class fits a role. Like a mage. Or a swordsman. Or an Archer. You don't see Archers suddenly casting fire. The idea behind the guide lines seem neat for new players who want to be "uber bad ass" from the get go, but for veterans it seems like a very dumbed down system. (Not saying its a "dumb idea", just very simple).

I never had any issues with the guide lines before. But like she said, it'll make things easier for the new recruits who feel the rules are too strict.

For example, I have a chef character (not Christoph lol), and he's level zero. How would he fit into a "class"? He's not an engineer, mage, swordsman, archer. Just a guy who knows some judo and a few knife fighting techniques and can cook one hell of a meatloaf.

[Atzar]

What? No.

You basically start out as a class. A class fits a role. Like a mage. Or a swordsman. Or an Archer. You don't see Archers suddenly casting fire. The idea behind the guide lines seem neat for new players who want to be "uber bad ass" from the get go, but for veterans it seems like a very dumbed down system. (Not saying its a "dumb idea", just very simple).

I never had any issues with the guide lines before. But like she said, it'll make things easier for the new recruits who feel the rules are too strict.

For example, I have a chef character (not Christoph lol), and he's level zero. How would he fit into a "class"? He's not an engineer, mage, swordsman, archer. Just a guy who knows some judo and a few knife fighting techniques and can cook one hell of a meatloaf.

So now he knows more judo, a few better knife-fighting techniques and can cook one hell of a meatloaf.

I'm not really seeing your point - how does class matter any more with this system than it used to (which is to say, not much at all)?

[Death's Nephew]

So now he knows more judo, a few better knife-fighting techniques and can cook one hell of a meatloaf.

I'm not really seeing your point - how does class matter any more with this system than it used to (which is to say, not much at all)?

Because that's not how it works? I'd need to sacrifice my judo to up my cooking. Or my cooking to up my judo. Or any other combo in that sense. It needs to make sense ICly for the character, but if that were true, I could say, "He was born during an atomic bomb strike so he has laser eyes as well." What guide lines can forbid me to make a character like that?

"Oh well make it so they aren't so strong."

He STILL has laser eyes, can cook, judo, knife fighting AND be an expert in all that?

Edit: On top of that, he's an excellent lover. Tell me the system wouldn't be broken.

[Atzar]

Because that's not how it works? I'd need to sacrifice my judo to up my cooking. Or my cooking to up my judo. Or any other combo in that sense. It needs to make sense ICly for the character, but if that were true, I could say, "He was born during an atomic bomb strike so he has laser eyes as well." What guide lines can forbid me to make a character like that?

"Oh well make it so they aren't so strong."

He STILL has laser eyes, can cook, judo, knife fighting AND be an expert in all that?

Edit: On top of that, he's an excellent lover. Tell me the system wouldn't be broken.

Nah, that's not the point of the system - there's still an upper limit to what you can have as a new character. But you seem to have taken Ataraxis' class examples a little too literally - your character doesn't have to conform to a specific class to be acceptable. His second example, the technopath, can use knives, which doesn't have anything to do with being a technopath. If it's justifiable in your history, you can have it, up to a certain point.

[Ataraxis]

@Death's Nephew:

I think the Concept idea is what you're confusing with Class. If you read it again, though, you'll notice it mentions that "We do not ask that you stick to a commonly known or even cliché concept, only that whatever you choose for your character concept remains cohesive". What you listed (mage, archer, swordsman) falls into those 'clichés' (though they're really more like archetypes). The Concept, however, is much broader and can take its roots from everywhere.

One notch over those archetypes: faith mage, arcane knight, magic archer, fighter cook. Then you have more applied concepts where the skills associated to the concept start to blur: a wendigo, a mutant, an ascendant being, a demoted god. Then there could be deconstructions or new spins on old characters, Like the Descendants of mythic Heroes, or avatars of concepts that rule within nature. Even your current character is already summed up into quite an evocative concept as Death's Nephew, and would in no way be put at a disadvantage under these guidelines. I don't think any one of us would have trouble looking at each other's characters and pointing out the concept behind them, either. I hope that clarifies the idea of Concept for you.

Now, for what doesn't fit within the guidelines of Concept. Infallible characters (Mary Sues and Marty Stues). Godly characters or demi-gods (comparable to Xem'Zund or his generals) are not allowed, at least not right off the bat - I don't think even Shyam's level 13 Damon Kaosi could be considered a demi-god (though definitely a reasonable powerhouse). No zombie-robot-pirate-ninja-berserker-witch-shamwow-guy, and any other string of mismatched jobs and careers. While I could foresee joke-characters being approved this way, few would bother exploring the humor to a one-trick gag concept of the sort, and if someone wanted to do it seriously, then that will be quite an endeavor and I wish them the best of luck.

But basically, if it makes sense, if it has potential, and if there is no perceivable ulterior motive for abuse, and if generally fits within the power-to-level graph that was drawn, then it's alright and deserves approval.

@Anyone concerned:

When I wrote this thing, I had no intention of overhauling the RoG with fancy new rules and daring tricks to attract unwary newcomers. There aren't any. I only suggest guidelines where there were none, and point-out areas within a character profile where RoG mods should be more lenient and open-minded, without becoming permissive for the sake of being permissive. Only somehow, that came across as a harbinger to the apocalypse.

I'm still willing to work on it if people do want this to happen, but if all I'm getting are answering machines and slippery-slope arguments, then the future looks bleak and in more ways than one. I'm starting to wonder whether a poll would be more conclusive.

[Death's Nephew]

@Death's Nephew:

I think the Concept idea is what you're confusing with Class. If you read it again, though, you'll notice it mentions that "We do not ask that you stick to a commonly known or even cliché concept, only that whatever you choose for your character concept remains cohesive". What you listed (mage, archer, swordsman) falls into those 'clichés' (though they're really more like archetypes). The Concept, however, is much broader and can take its roots from everywhere.

One notch over those archetypes: faith mage, arcane knight, magic archer, fighter cook. Then you have more applied concepts where the skills associated to the concept start to blur: a wendigo, a mutant, an ascendant being, a demoted god. Then there could be deconstructions or new spins on old characters, Like the Descendants of mythic Heroes, or avatars of concepts that rule within nature. Even your current character is already summed up into quite an evocative concept as Death's Nephew, and would in no way be put at a disadvantage under these guidelines. I don't think any one of us would have trouble looking at each other's characters and pointing out the concept behind them, either. I hope that clarifies the idea of Concept for you.

Now, for what doesn't fit within the guidelines of Concept. Infallible characters (Mary Sues and Marty Stues). Godly characters or demi-gods (comparable to Xem'Zund or his generals) are not allowed, at least not right off the bat - I don't think even Shyam's level 13 Damon Kaosi could be considered a demi-god (though definitely a reasonable powerhouse). No zombie-robot-pirate-ninja-berserker-witch-shamwow-guy, and any other string of mismatched jobs and careers. While I could foresee joke-characters being approved this way, few would bother exploring the humor to a one-trick gag concept of the sort, and if someone wanted to do it seriously, then that will be quite an endeavor and I wish them the best of luck.

But basically, if it makes sense, if it has potential, and if there is no perceivable ulterior motive for abuse, and if generally fits within the power-to-level graph that was drawn, then it's alright and deserves approval.

@Anyone concerned:

When I wrote this thing, I had no intention of overhauling the RoG with fancy new rules and daring tricks to attract unwary newcomers. There aren't any. I only suggest guidelines where there were none, and point-out areas within a character profile where RoG mods should be more lenient and open-minded, without becoming permissive for the sake of being permissive. Only somehow, that came across as a harbinger to the apocalypse.

I'm still willing to work on it if people do want this to happen, but if all I'm getting are answering machines and slippery-slope arguments, then the future looks bleak and in more ways than one. I'm starting to wonder whether a poll would be more conclusive.

Ok, that was an awesome explanation and great way to explain your system. I'd still keep my character the way he is for IC reasons (even though making one hell of a meatloaf would be sweet), but I'll stand behind this for the new system and people who want to re-vamp their profiles.

[Amen]

I told myself I'd stay out of this because I'm new to the site and it's none of my business, but I see people on the "liberal" side of the argument getting discouraged, so let me at least say this much: as a new member (and someone who has tried to convince people to come with me to Althanas), I think Ataraxis' idea is a good one and will help with membership bleed.

[Atzar]

Any progress on this whole debate? It's gone quiet for awhile.

[Taskmienster]

I’m making working on it, as the admin in charge. I know most of you aren’t willing to accept that I’m doing what I can, either because you don’t believe in me or because you don’t like me, but the truth is that I care about Althanas more than most. I’ve done as much as I possibly can currently, and I’m trying to do more. With the help of the staff, we’ve been successfully pushing through more ides that are both being discussed, as well as suggested but not fully fleshed out. In that regard, we are both immediately acceptant and thankful for everyone’s suggestions as well as trying our very best to accompany everyone’s ideals for the site while still keeping Althanas similar if not the same as what people have expected.

In that, alone, I’m promising that changes will happen. I’m not saying everything will take place, since I personally believe (and have been backed up in this belief) that change for the sake of change is just as useless as anything else proposed. However, in regard to the RoG, we’re working on it. I want to clarify what it means to be certain abilities, such as average or whatever. But in the long run, what makes Althanas what it is has always been our ability to regulate what each individual at each level is equivalent to.

I’m not saying that your submissions and ideas aren’t necessary or appreciated. They are. More than you can possibly know. I know that most of what has been proposed is from former mods and other staff members. I’m glad that you still care about the site as much as you do. Without you we’d be little more than what idea’s me and the other Admins currently have. I’m glad that you care enough to say, “hey, this doesn’t look right. What do you think about this idea?”. That is what makes Althanas great, because not only do you care enough to make a suggestion that could change the way the site works, but because we as staff members care about what you have to say.

Never think that, as an admin, I’m too “high and mighty” or “elitist” to bother with a discussion.

I’ve followed this closely, as much to make sure that there isn’t any flaming and trolling as anything, I’ll admit. But in following it, I’ve noticed that the most secure thing to change about the site isn’t necessarily the base process for which we take for granted when compared to other sites. I’ve noticed that what we take for granted, compared to other sites, is what makes us great and unique. We have spent more time discussing little things, but in the long run what is it that we are arguing for or against? The ability to be a free-forum site, or to be little more than another MMORPG which is written out in words instead of acted out with the wasd buttons.

When it comes down to it, I’m honored that you all have put so much reason into this argument. I want to make a difference as much as you all do. I want to have new players stick around and love the site as I have for the last 7 years. However, I can’t honestly believe that changing everything about the site so that new people feel like they can write whatever they want instead of treating this like a Creative Writing Workshop as it truly is will be beneficial to the site. I still think that holding up our honesty, our belief in making everyone better at writing, and making it so that each person has a fair chance at defeating another in battle (if they will that) is just as important.

In that regard. I am going to say that I’m working on correcting the issue with the clarification of skills. Id’ like if you all would help me. I understand that “average” doesn’t mean anything currently, the same as an arbitrary number assigned to a skill would. If you want a system that works, help me work something out. Whether it’s something with Journeyman or with Average and Above Average I don’t care. As long as it’s something workable. I’ll be joining this discussion from this point on, and would love the help of everyone on the site, not just the staff. I know you all care about the site as much as I do, I would only request that you show it through the very words that you have shown throughout this thread. Don’t give up, you’re concerns haven’t been unnoticed.

I’ve seen them and care about them. I just want to make sure that we don’t give up what Althanas is in order to attract new players alone. I don’t want to ignore the years of work the older players have put into the site, keeping it active to this point, only to ignore their dedication in favor of attracting new people.

Make sense?

[Godhand]

Your post is nothing but apologies/condescension with no substance. All your arguments, what few there are anyway, have been addressed and your request for a skill definition has already been filled here (http://www.althanas.com/world/showpost.php?p=161570&postcount=24). You say you're keeping up with the thread but are you really?

[Letho]

Down boy!

As I mentioned in the mod forum, I find that chart ridiculously and unnecessarily long, with differences in some of them being more cosmetic than anything. Here's a rough outline of a chart that would be much simpler, and I think more or less like what people have been using it already. I've started with novice/average, because who really wants to list skills he sucks at, right?


1./Novice – Pretty much what “average” was before. You know the basics of the field, what goes where, what tools to use to get the job done, but you're still an amateur. For example, a novice swordsman would know to deliver the basic sword strikes with moderate precision and without losing their balance.

2./Skilled – More or less equal to “above average”. You're familiar with the inner workings of the field, enough to stand out from the rest. Your grasp on the advanced techniques is still questionable, but you're definitely heading in the right direction. Example, a skilled swordsman can pull of combos and leaves himself open less frequently.

3./Expert – You're esteemed amongst your peers as a professional in that particular field, your skill a perfect combination of training and talent. The secrets of the trade are being revealed to you. Again, an example, an expert swordsman can keep multiple skilled opponents at bay, seldom leaves openings in his defense and delivers his strikes precisely where he means to.

4./Master – You have honed and refined your skill to the point where you feel like there's little room for improvement. You're not faultless, but pretty damn near. A master swordsman has very few opponents that can withstand him, and has not only mastered the technique, but also the tactics of combat.

5./Legendary – Story of your feats and proficiency are well known to those knowledgeable in the field and you are recognized as one of maybe a handful that have truly seen it and done it all. A legendary swordsman is both a fierce opponent and a brilliant tactician, his every move calculated and precise.

6./Peerless – Sort of self-explanatory. You've achieved perfection in every aspect of the field.


EDIT: The rule of thumb for combat related skills would still be that a starting character gets one at Skilled, unless there are some mitigating circumstances to allow another. As before, it would be decided on case to case basis. However, concerning non-combat skills the system would be more lax. Coupled with some clarification regarding the RoG guide that Task is working on, I feel that something like this would make registration process easier.

Just my two cents worth.

[Max Dirks]

Your post is nothing but apologies/condescension with no substance. All your arguments, what few there are anyway, have been addressed and your request for a skill definition has already been filled here (http://www.althanas.com/world/showpost.php?p=161570&postcount=24). You say you're keeping up with the thread but are you really?Godhand, the issue isn't with the skill progression chart. It's the level progression portion that's held up this issue with the moderators (i.e. "What is the maximum level and amount of skills a person can have at each level?") Skill progression charts are useless without this essential sister component. There have been over five skill progression charts posted both publicly and on the moderator forum and each have been discussed at nauseam. There have been several other solutions proposed, but regardless of what ultimate clarification is made on skills, we still have to decide what amount at what level is appropriate.

Basically, if clarifying skill progression was the only issue it'd be done already. However, there are other things to consider too. For example I've already mentioned, "Where does a level 0 character fit on the progression chart?" "Where does a level 30 character fit on the progression chart?" and "How do you deal with multiple skills?," but there are also other factors such as "Should it (the link between the skill progression and the level progression) be mathematical?" "Should it be up to the judge's discretion?." There are also important ex post facto questions to be answered: "If we decide on a particular standard does every player have (or get) to re-register their character based on the new system?" or "If not, are characters grandfathered into the system at their next level up?" and also, "Why even regulate skills insofar as they describe subjective knowledge (i.e. lock picking) anyway?"

Ultimately it's Task's decision to change the RoG at all. When he asks for your opinions, he doesn't mean on the skill progression chart (which is arguably the least important thing). There are tons of those. Ataraxis' is great, Duffy had a phenomenal one, Letho's had one, I had a very mathematical one, Logan's had one. We all could make one. He means he wants input on the whole range of issues that this thread has spawned to decide whether it's worth it to change anything at all.

[The International]

I've been following this thread for a while too, and I think it's about time I chimed in. As Ataraxis has said, the intention was not an overhaul, but clear guidelines to bring about ease of registration. Let me provide an example, myself.

When I registered Vespasian I used the format suggested in the RoG, but I would not have done it as well as I did if I hadn't looked back into the archives about three or four pages and found a registration that looked good. Most brand new players aren't as aware as I was, and it took me a hell of a long time to be certain of what I was doing. Then there was a question of skills because I knew that I wouldn't just be fighting with my characters. They'd be doing much more than just fighting. I have scenes in the works in which the Villeneuve family is cooking together, but I'm reluctant to post it because I didn't include something like 'culinary arts' in their skills. If I have Vespasian cooking in the opening scene of a quest, is a Judge going to dock points because I didn't list that as a skill? And if I register that and other everyday activities as skills, will I have to water down the combat oriented skills that my character needs in order to compete in the Citadel and tournaments?

Some players use skill charts like the ones suggested in this thread, so that it's clearly defined how good a character is at something. Some, albeit very few, have not, but have managed to get approved. Ashiakin has managed to keep his ice ability the same for quite some time, and it's allowed him a lot of creativity in his use of it. I tried something like that with my main character's sister, Maelle, and it's worked out pretty well. However, I'm afraid I could be called out on power gaming even with the humble stuff that I've done with her so far. That level of uncertainty is discomforting for me. That's all I have to say about skills and abilities. I'll let you guys handle that and I'll follow the rules, whatever they may be.

If I would suggest anything about character registration it would be the following.

(1) Revise the guidelines for character registration to be a little bit more clear and concise. Ataraxis' example at the very beginning of this thread is great. Blend it in with Task's outline on post #2 of the RoG and Althanas FAQ thread. I'd do little more than copy and paste what he had because it covers some unwritten rules (It doesn't create any new rules either) every RoG mod seems to follow when they look over a registration. For example, methods of transportation are not allowed for sale. I have a ship in my registration, but do you see Lord Anglekos telling me I can't sell it? No... Although he did do his job and PMed me about it later.

(2) Provide a few good examples of a character registration. Yea yea I know we can look at the archives, but Marcus Book and Nayeli aren't going to be on the front page for long. One day (like the day I registered for example) you're going to have a bunch of really rough character registrations on that front page. Save new players and yourselves time by showing them what you want.

(3) If your motivation for turning any idea down is that it will make things a little bit easier for new players to do what you did, smack yourself in the face and grow up! "They should suffer this inconvenience because I did." is not a good reason for anything. No one has said this outright, but I just want to cover all my bases. Some of the oldest players remember a time when the average IC post was no more than half a page long. It definitely isn't like that now, but I sure as hell aint complaining.

(4) Whatever you change, change it everywhere. If a perspective player just so happens to click on the FAQ (http://althanas.com/world/faq.php?faq=start#faq_welcomegettingstarted) before seeing Task's RoG (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=19339) nothing will have changed. If Task's version is more understandable than the FAQ page's version (...it IS) the least we can do is copy and paste it there. This is by no means a plea or compromise. I still believe if you blend Ataraxis' guidelines with Task's outline and provide an example, it would be great.

The idea of this thread was to make it easier and faster for new players to register their characters, and I think (skill argument pending) that these things will do that for us. This is not to say you won't have someone that needs a lot of help challenge the mods every now and then, and this is not to say that someone won't come along and give you a hard time, but I do believe it will help reduce those instances.

[Nayeli]

(4) Whatever you change, change it everywhere. If a perspective player just so happens to click on the FAQ (http://althanas.com/world/faq.php?faq=start#faq_welcomegettingstarted) before seeing Task's RoG (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=19339) nothing will have changed. If Task's version is more understandable than the FAQ page's version (...it IS) the least we can do is copy and paste it there. This is by no means a plea or compromise. I still believe if you blend Ataraxis' guidelines with Task's outline and provide an example, it would be great.

Wha...what!? I didn't see that! The thread of Task's that you linked to, that is: this one (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=19339). When I was first registering, I went to the FAQ that's here (http://www.althanas.com/world/faq.php), which was...a lot more confusing. I wish I'd seen that when I was first registering... I don't know how I missed that :confused: I guess because on the homepage, there's a link to a "Getting Started (http://althanas.com/world/faq.php?faq=start)" guide and that was just what I clicked on.

*ahem* Sorry, this isn't really relevant to the subject at hand, but from a new person's perspective that's probably something that could be improved.

[The International]

Wha...what!? I didn't see that! The thread of Task's that you linked to, that is: this one (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=19339). When I was first registering, I went to the FAQ that's here (http://www.althanas.com/world/faq.php), which was...a lot more confusing. I wish I'd seen that when I was first registering... I don't know how I missed that :confused: I guess because on the homepage, there's a link to a "Getting Started (http://althanas.com/world/faq.php?faq=start)" guide and that was just what I clicked on.

*ahem* Sorry, this isn't really relevant to the subject at hand, but from a new person's perspective that's probably something that could be improved.

That is absolutely relevant to this thread. The purpose of this is to make things easier for new players to register. Yes, it is mainly to discuss Ataraxis' original proposal on how to do that, but if we can make it easier by other means as well then let's do it.

[Atzar]

I suppose a week is enough time to let this sit before I ask for another update. Not my intent to be a nuisance, but I'm fairly interested in the outcome of this whole thing.

So... anything new?

[Max Dirks]

I suppose a week is enough time to let this sit before I ask for another update. Not my intent to be a nuisance, but I'm fairly interested in the outcome of this whole thing.

So... anything new?I believe that the official decision is that we are no longer going to regulate skills in the Realm of Greeting, just abilities. Abilities are things that have a direct effect on other PCs (like fireballs and extra speed). Skills are things that are a) based on the subjective knowledge of the character and b) have an indirect effect on other PCs (like lockpicking). The decision whether something is a skill or an ability will be made at the discretions of the Realm of Greeting moderators. Skills will be enforced utilitizing typical powergaming and spoils rules. For example, if your thief character steals something that belongs to another character without permission it is powergaming. If you break into an NPCs vault during a quest to steal something, it is up to the judge to determine whether the writing quality warrants the reward.

Taskmienster should be along shortly to verify the new position, but I'm pretty sure I understood it as such.