Ring of the Sun Workshop

[Zook Murnig]

Rayse Valentino and Ataraxis have requested a Workshop Evaluation of Ring of the Sun (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?p=162114#post162114). This thread will remain open for two weeks for commentary, followed by commentator rewards and a light judgment with a modified rubric. Be respectful and civil, please, and give them both your best efforts.

[Nayeli]

Hello hello! Okay, that was…really awesome. I absolutely loved that thread from beginning to end. It had a really good vibe to it, I thought. Almost like one a heist movie—Ocean's Eleven or The Italian Job or something like of that nature, I love those. That was my impression, anyway, and I liked it a lot.

Sorry, you can tell I’m excited about this, eh? It was lots of fun to read, that’s for sure. Anyway, let’s see what I wrote in my notes.

One of the things I liked about this thread was that you were really eased into the details of the characters. I think there’re kind of two extremes in this respect. There’s people who never give any info about their people (which sucks for continuity) and people who try and cram it all into the first post so they can just get on with it. Neither really works. I thought that, as someone unfamiliar with the characters or the powergroups or anything, it was nonetheless fairly easy to read and understand. At first I was a bit confused, but as the thread progressed I got the picture.

I thought that setting was one of the few real weak points of the thread. At first I had very little or no idea of the setting at all. Then, once they got into the tunnels, it was a bit stronger. Still, that was just about all the setting I got. Tunnels? Underground? I don’t know, I thought that could use a bit of improvement. It was sufficient, and good, but nothing about the setting really struck me as excellent or above and beyond the call of duty. I don’t know, maybe it was just because the rest of the thread was so strong, I expected a bit more. It was good, just not great.

Another thing that I thought was sub-optimal was how long the beginning of the thread. The “introduction” before everything really got started was really the entire first page—ten posts at least. While it was all well done, that did seem to drag on a bit, and perhaps could have been a bit shorter. On the other hand, the end of the thread seemed rushed, and while it did build up to a good climax, I was expecting a little bit more after all that build-up.

The dialogue was awesome. Rayse’s especially really struck me as being good—I thought that was one of the best parts of his posts, throughout the entire thread I was looking forward to it. Ataraxis, yours was good too, but see what I say in a little while about the persona of your characters. I found the one dwarf’s dialogue to be a little bit annoying and cheesy, though, or at least the whole accent thing. Ven ze character spends all zer time talking like this it iz hard to reeead sometimk! I’m just never a fan of when people insert a really strong accent into their dialogue like that, I think it distracts from the story. But it wasn’t really that bad, just mildly irritating. As a whole, the dialogue was excellent.

Your characters are both like gods, ha, it's just like SUPERPOWERS. They both take it so matter-of-factly, though, which is ncie. That’s one thing I actually liked about it, and what I like about reading all high-level character’s threads. They just end up being so epic—which is why I thought that Rayse’s observation about the Fateless or whatever was pretty amusing. The action of the thread was well done, and clear, and fit well with the characters. There were a few moments where I was stunned by the badassery (really the only way to describe it). Lillian lifting up the Ring of the Sun, for instance, was awesome—and the bullet passing through Rayse’s forehead in the 19th post? That was sick.

Now all that was good, but I thought where this thread really shone was persona—Rayse especially. I absolutely love that character. He just oozes persona in all his posts, and it’s exactly the sort of character that I find to be compelling. He almost reminds me of someone Clint Eastwood (when he was younger) would play, someone tough and pragmatic and just cool. He seemed very real and that was just done really well. Lillian…I just didn’t get quite as good of a feel for. She always seemed a bit alien to me, honestly. While she was interesting, I never really was sure exactly what her personality was, I guess? What exactly were her goals, where did she come from, what was she doing? She just seemed kind of…mysterious. Unpredictable. Maybe that’s what you were striving for, but I didn’t think it was very compelling if that’s the case. I don’t know, maybe that was just my impression, but it’s something to keep in mind.

As far as mechanics and technique went, I have fairly few complaints. There was a few typos and grammatical issues, but not nearly enough to distract from the thread itself. Ataraxis’ technique was strong, Rayse, I would keep an eye out. While at your best it seems like you’re really good, there were a few places where you sort of let it slip. Your first post was an example of that, I’m afraid. Just look at the first few paragraphs…I didn’t think it was a very strong way to start. Generally you want to try and pull the reader in with something exciting right off the bat, which is hard to do, but important. You’ve really got to grab someone’s attention with the first sentence, if you can. There were a few places where your descriptions and posts just seemed to drag on, I’d try to cut down on that.

Okay, something you both do, that I noticed, is overuse the word was. I’ve noticed that in other threads of yours that I’ve read, Rayse (I’ve never read anything of yours before though, Ataraxis, so I can’t compare). I really struggle with that myself. What it boils down to, though, is that was is a difficult to avoid but weak word. Try to be more active and less passive! There are places where you used “was” ten times in a paragraph, and I’m certain that you could cut down on that somewhat. It’ll make it more active and interesting for the reader. It wasn’t crippling, but that’s just something else to keep an eye on.

Both of your writing was very clear, though, I had no real problems understanding what was going on there. Very good in that respect. You might want to cut down a bit on unnecessary wordiness, but I didn’t think that was a huge problem. Just remember to try and cut out all unnecessary words—only leave what you really need. That’s such cliché advice, I know, but it’s really true.

Overall, though, as I said: I really loved this thread. I thought it started out good, got really good, and kind of died out early…but yes, overall, it was just excellent. A very enjoyable read, very cool, very badass. It’s one of my favorite threads that I’ve read on here thus far, actually. It wasn’t really deep or contemplative or anything, it just set out to tell a good story and did it, and I like that. It wasn’t pretentious or “trying too hard” it was just good. So I’m not really sure how much my advice even means to you, I mean, you’re both much better writers than I am! But I figured hey, it couldn’t hurt to just write down some of my impressions, right? Just some things to think about.

I’d love to read some more stuff from both of you in the future! :D

[Duffy]

I am somewhat surprised that Nayeli managed to say everything I'd have said (although to a greater extent than anything I'd have managed) but I'd like to echo some of it all the same.

I don't personally find your character's setting, description or drive interesting, but, your writing (the both of you) holds sway over me all the same for one simple reason. Dialogue, a mastery of it in terms of the rubric at least. I feel as if it's somewhat modernised, almost as if the characters are common everyday run of the mill characters from a soap opera, but it is that natural and superfluous ease in their nuances that makes it so competent and intriguing to read. I can't fathom how you both do it, but the accent and natural indecisiveness people tend to speak with in a situation they're uncertain of (a busy office, a strange liason, a stressful environ) is plastered over every word your characters speak and it's something to be proud of.

I felt the thread somewhat drowned in a lack of interesting description, although that's my own personal tendency and enjoyment of the much dreaded purple prose coming through, I've no need to tell you both again that you've grasped the fundamentals and gone well beyond. Your characters gel as well, even though on face value and from their respective backgrounds they might not have done so in an ideal world, you've kept the rivalry and difference in the little witticisms they throw at each other and the NPCs you use really bring the reader into the environment and the busy office.

Pacing is lost a little in the concluding posts but it develops into a business agreement nicely, and without losing any of the charm from the conversation between the two of you. If strength and dialogue are the strengths of Ring of the Sun, then no doubt action and setting would be the weaker aspects, but that's due to the rubric being non-fluidic in terms of non-action/combat threads, but there's plenty of banter and motion to keep it alive all the same.

The both of you should be commended, and as ever, it's a charm to read anything from the both of you! I hope others comment too, its a shame for the workshop to fall flat on its face so early - it really doesn't take more then fifteen minutes of a day to read a thread, pick up on a few things and contribute to the judgement process. You asked as a majority for more involvement and adaptability in the way Althanas works in terms of the rubric and you, yet there's been no real show of hands after the Workshop was created, or rather, re-introduced.

Come on people, Ataraxis and Rayne deserve more than that!

[Atzar]

I'm going to keep my input brief.

I thought Nayeli's opinion, in general, was very accurate. Perhaps the only place where I'd disagree with her was regarding Rayse's personality. Where she thought he oozed personality, I thought he was the standard chaotic Althanas character - "Look at my bad ass being badass while I do badass things badassily!" You do play the part very well, but there's nothing unique about him from a charisma standpoint. Maybe that's a little bit nitpicky, I don't know - you decide.

For the most part, you guys are very strong in terms of grammar and mechanics. Ataraxis, you use too many commas at times. Rayse, there were places where you'd use sentence fragments. While this can be effective, sometimes it seemed out of place here.

In general, you did about as well as you could with the quest given the fairly generic plotline: Go here, get this, ohshitbadguysrunaway! It won't win any prizes for originality, but it was still an entertaining read.

I guess my only fault with the plot was that the introduction of the two main dwarves was done a little sloppily, in my opinion. It felt to me like they should have been introduced earlier. Instead, it seemed like you guys got halfway through the thread, said "Oh shit! We don't have any bad guys!" and then threw something together to stand in your way while you badass your respective ways out of trouble. Yes, 'badass' is a verb now.

Clearly, my issues with the quest are minor, and overall you two really did a good job with the quest.

[Nayeli]

Perhaps the only place where I'd disagree with her was regarding Rayse's personality. Where she thought he oozed personality, I thought he was the standard chaotic Althanas character - "Look at my bad ass being badass while I do badass things badassily!" You do play the part very well, but there's nothing unique about him from a charisma standpoint. Maybe that's a little bit nitpicky, I don't know - you decide.

Hmmm, interesting. I suppose that's true, he is somewhat archetypal, but that's an archetype I happen to quite like, and I think he plays it out fairly well, so whether it's a problem or not might be up to the reader's discretion. But that might be something to keep in mind.

Plus, there's an opportunity I think for Rayse to dissect that archetype in a thread, if he wants, which might be interesting.

I'm allowed to post here after my initial comments, right? I mean this is supposed to be a discussion of the thread, I think.

[Atzar]

Hmmm, interesting. I suppose that's true, he is somewhat archetypal, but that's an archetype I happen to quite like, and I think he plays it out fairly well, so whether it's a problem or not might be up to the reader's discretion. But that might be something to keep in mind.

Plus, there's an opportunity I think for Rayse to dissect that archetype in a thread, if he wants, which might be interesting.

I'm allowed to post here after my initial comments, right? I mean this is supposed to be a discussion of the thread, I think.

I don't see why not.

I used to like that kind of character too, before I became a judge. Then, as I read more, got exposed to more styles and more characters, I realized how common of a personality it really is.

In general, I think that's the biggest challenge of playing an evil character, or playing a 'chaotic' character: it's all well and nice to play him as a total badass (and it's actually quite easy, to be honest) but the hard part is finding a way to stand out from the pack.

The best example of success that I have in that regard was Storm Veritas. His character definitely fit into that archetype, yet there was still plenty of personal flavor and uniqueness that identified him as Storm Veritas.

Molotov was another character I'd mark as a success in that sense, particularly later in his story arc.

The point I'm making, I guess, is that there's a definite difference between a generic badass and a well-portrayed, three-dimensional badass - just as there's a difference between a generic good guy and a really well-played good guy. Rayse does very well with his character as far as it goes, but his writing will reach a whole new level if he manages to develop his character to the point that the aforementioned players did.

[Neville Longinus]

I'm allowed to post in these too, right? I agree with the points on setting, using an active voice, and the anti-climatic ending, but Atzar sort of confuses me.

Sure, if you look at the profile of Storm Veritas he appears to be similar to me in that our characters are both smooth talkers and he got an electricity gimmick going on while Rayse has a fire one, but that's where the similarities end.

I guess if you were to use DnD alignments, Rayse is more of a Lawful Evil, preferring to manipulate and control, while Storm is more of a Neutral Evil- not bound by any rules or laws but rather seeks fulfillment without going all rampant carnage about it. He also got a lot of internal monologue going on and goes for the suave demeanor.

This thread doesn't really lend itself to any Lawful Evil tendencies. I only knew the baseline of the plot when I joined up, which was just 'go to place a to retrieve item b'. If you thought the antagonists were tacked on, well they sort of were. We were really playing it by ear the whole way. One of them was from a previous thread, though.

Anyway, I just wanted to get in the bit about 'chaotic', since I can't imagine that being anywhere true. It implies some sporadic nature that I can't fathom, or otherwise I'm definitely not intentionally trying to portray. The comparisons to other players that you consider 'better' seemed really off as well. I'd like some examples of why they allegedly do what I do but better, if you don't mind.

As for the setting, I don't know what y'all wanted us to do. It's not the Mines of Moria, we're not traversing an ancient city filled with pitfalls and massive gates. It's a regular mineshaft, and I felt that while we didn't really 'play around with the setting', there wasn't a whole lot to do there in the first place. If you feel otherwise I'd like some examples in this regard as well.

[Atzar]

I'm allowed to post in these too, right? I agree with the points on setting, using an active voice, and the anti-climatic ending, but Atzar sort of confuses me.

Sure, if you look at the profile of Storm Veritas he appears to be similar to me in that our characters are both smooth talkers and he got an electricity gimmick going on while Rayse has a fire one, but that's where the similarities end.

I guess if you were to use DnD alignments, Rayse is more of a Lawful Evil, preferring to manipulate and control, while Storm is more of a Neutral Evil- not bound by any rules or laws but rather seeks fulfillment without going all rampant carnage about it. He also got a lot of internal monologue going on and goes for the suave demeanor.

This thread doesn't really lend itself to any Lawful Evil tendencies. I only knew the baseline of the plot when I joined up, which was just 'go to place a to retrieve item b'. If you thought the antagonists were tacked on, well they sort of were. We were really playing it by ear the whole way. One of them was from a previous thread, though.

Anyway, I just wanted to get in the bit about 'chaotic', since I can't imagine that being anywhere true. It implies some sporadic nature that I can't fathom, or otherwise I'm definitely not intentionally trying to portray. The comparisons to other players that you consider 'better' seemed really off as well. I'd like some examples of why they allegedly do what I do but better, if you don't mind.

As for the setting, I don't know what y'all wanted us to do. It's not the Mines of Moria, we're not traversing an ancient city filled with pitfalls and massive gates. It's a regular mineshaft, and I felt that while we didn't really 'play around with the setting', there wasn't a whole lot to do there in the first place. If you feel otherwise I'd like some examples in this regard as well.

Poor word choice, perhaps. I didn't mean to imply randomness. The feel I got for your character wasn't that he was evil, necessarily, but he didn't feel the need to play by the rules either. Forget the fact that I used the word 'chaotic'. Regardless of whether or not I chose the right word there, the point remains: I think Rayse is somewhat generic. "I'm badass, I do what I want, fuck you if you try to stop me."

The comparison to Storm and Molotov had nothing to do with their abilities, but rather that they share that same 'badass' model. If I had to choose a specific area where I like Storm's character over yours, it would probably be dialogue - Storm had a very distinctive way of speaking in my opinion. It should be noted, though, that Storm Veritas was possibly my favorite writer on the site, so I'm setting the bar pretty high on you.

[MetalDrago]

STORY ~ (20/30)

CHARACTER ~ (20/30)

WRITING STYLE ~ (19/30)

Wild Card (4/10) ~

Total Score: 63

Rayse Earns 2800 EXP and 450 GP
Ataraxis earns 3150 EXP and 450 GP

Spoils approved.


Nayeli, as most helpful reviewer, receives 25 EXP and 150 GP
Atzar Kellon receives 75 EXP and 50 GP


This is my first Workshop, so... I decided to go ahead and repost my own Judgment here, along with the rewards for those who contributed.

[Rayse Valentino]

Can I take it all back and request a normal judging instead? No offense to the contributors, but this is a joke.

[Zook Murnig]

I apologize for the time it took, but you received ample commentary and a respectable score. Further, all of your spoils were approved. No, you may not resubmit the thread, and I see no reason why you should want to do so. If your complaint is the time, then it would take more still for it to be rejudged by another judge. If your complaint is anything else, you're simply being unreasonable and selfish.

In short: No, you may not.

[Letho]

EXP/GP for both the participants of this quest and the contributors in the Workshop has been added.