Wit, Irony, and Ambiguity

[Knave]

I'd like a bit of help when it comes to these concepts, apparently they require civilization, and culture. So I was hoping one of you guys can clarify. I'd like to see examples of them being used, if any is so king.

[Caden Law]

I snuggle the abundant bosom of irony.

Wit ain't bad either.

Ambiguity's a different beast.

[Nayeli]

Isn't the poll a bit misleading? I mean you could theoretically have all of them. Wit's my favorite, though.

[Knave]

I am also asking for examples, guys. While stating preferences is welcome I'd love see how they are done.

[Caden Law]

It really depends on the context involved.

Situational irony for humor's sake can be compelling, but taken more seriously it can be tragic and beautiful. The former crops up all the time in my writing; the latter is a helluva lot harder and I can't really think of any times I've used it according to the strict definition. I could probably point to Caden's interactions with Veshua in the Laws of Wizardry, or even his whole run through the Henge Sorcerous. Maybe. Probably not, actually.

Wit is about the same. Done for humor's sake, awesome. Done for drama's sake, you'd better be as smart as the situation you're writing and hope your audience is too. Wit is the stuff of continuity to me.

Ambiguity is suitably Ambiguous. I don't make too much use of it because it annoys me most of the time. If you're trying to inspire speculation in an audience though, it can be very useful.

[Hysteria]

how would someone use ambiguity?

[Duffy]

Wit is saying 'YOUR MUM!' at the right time and getting away with it.

Ambiguity is not being sure who your mum is.

Irony is finding out you're sleeping with your mum.

[Alis Grave Nil]

Wit is saying 'YOUR MUM!' at the right time and getting away with it.

Ambiguity is not being sure who your mum is.

Irony is finding out you're sleeping with your mum.

And that for me was humor... i laughed, and it hurts... >_>

[Duffy]

I aim to please...

Just like YOUR MUM!

[Hysteria]

I aim to please...

Just like YOUR MUM!

I find I use ya mum jokes inversely proportional to the amount of sleep I get. This rule also applies for 'that's what she said' and 'just like your girlfriend'.

These are facts.

[Visla Eraclaire]

how would someone use ambiguity?


Equivocate with a word that can mean more than one thing, where either would make sense in the situation. I've done this before but I cannot come up with such a word as an example at the moment.

Alternatively, withhold details and let the audience assume what they want. Cory is obsessed with the idea of my character as a lesbian, though that's never explicitly stated.

Finally, you can play on the audience's presuppositions about how a story will unfold. Say your character has made a decision without saying what it is, while leaving cues for the audience to think it is X. When the time comes to act, the decision turned out to be Y.

The three examples get easier to use as you go. The first is almost impossible to do without confusing at least some people, if not most.

[Duffy]

Cory is obsessed with the idea of my character as a lesbian, though that's never explicitly stated.

No troll here sir...syrs question.

What on earth, Cory? How did you jump to this conclusion?!

[Nayeli]

I snuggle the abundant bosom of irony.
I just noticed this sentence. It's early in the morning, but "the abundant bosom of irony" might be the best sequence of words that I read all day today.


Cory is obsessed with the idea of my character as a lesbian, though that's never explicitly stated.
No troll here sir...syrs question.

What on earth, Cory? How did you jump to this conclusion?!
I like how Visla doesn't deny this. :p Therein is the key to ambiguity! But seriously, it's probably a lot safer to make that assumption about my characters. ;)

Anyway, onto the serious topic at hand:

Wit, for me, mostly implies humor. It makes me think of Terry Pratchett, who's probably one of the wittiest people on the planet. I think having a conversation with him would be like living in an episode of "Gilmore Girls," except probably a lot funnier and more clever. He's excellent at making witty statements and plays on words--and I love him for it. Wit is part of the key to making good metaphors and similes. It takes some quick thinking to write a good metaphor, because you have to convince the reader to see the world in a whole new (and often strange) way.

Irony, on the other hand, can be done in two ways, as Caden said. I prefer tragic irony though, humorous irony always just seems a bit forced or unfunny. Tragic irony, on the other hand, is fantastic. The best examples of that, I think, are some of the old Greek tragedies. Sophocles' Oedipus Rex comes to mind immediately.

I really don't know what Spades is talking about when he says ambiguity. Leading the reader in one direction and then diving in another is good, but that doesn't really seem like ambiguity to me. Not if you're intentionally misleading them. The only instance of ambiguity that I can really think of is kind of a classic murder mystery, like Sherlock Holmes or something? I dunno. That's just...ambiguous. Haha.

By the way, I'm trying to ignore Duffy's "yo momma" jokes. I read those and literally cringed. >.<

[Hysteria]

The three examples get easier to use as you go. The first is almost impossible to do without confusing at least some people, if not most.

I think the last two of those wouldn't be described as Ambiguity though. Not knowing something, or trying to figure out where the story is heading are both different. Recently I have been watching a bunch of movies from the Masters of Horror range (no idea how they put them together, but meh). Most of them will have two or three unexpected twists in the plot, for example a loop story plot (where the protagonist interupts someone from killing a disfigured girl, only to after the story nearly ends is interupted and killed before he can kill the girl and the story starts again). Theres no ambiguity, just a clever and slowly revealed plot.


Irony, on the other hand, can be done in two ways, as Caden said. I prefer tragic irony though, humorous irony always just seems a bit forced or unfunny. Tragic irony, on the other hand, is fantastic. The best examples of that, I think, are some of the old Greek tragedies. Sophocles' Oedipus Rex comes to mind immediately.

Romeo and Juliet I suppose too.

I think we are talking about a mixture of story telling techniques and plot devices right? Wouldn't it be easier to seperate them into things like Humor/Comedy, Suspence, Mystery and Tragedy? I know they are also genres, but you could tell the same story as Suspence, Humor or Tragedy if you used different narratives and story progression.

For example:
Bob walks down the street, bangs his foot and falls face first into a fruit stand and knocks himself out.


Mystery:
Start with him lying in the fruit stand, then move back to him walking down the street. Then him tripping over.

Tragedy:
Narrative focuses on his pain through out the walk, foot and fruit stand.

Humor:
Add a wwaaaa wwaaa wwwaaaaaaa sound at the end.

These are pretty average examples, but I felt the need to prolong my procrastination from the work I am doing.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Ambiguity is synonymous, in its secondary definition, with uncertainty.

A plot twist is one thing, but leaving something open with arguments to be made for either side is ambiguity. Similarly, making a statement like the one in my third example with is subject to multiple interpretations is also ambiguity of a textbook variety.

@ Duffy ~ He sends me IMs every time I post something requesting hot girl on demon action. I am dead serious.

@ Nayeli ~ Denying it is no fun. I like to keep as many good arguments for it as against it.

[Hysteria]

Hummm. You have a point. :p

I may be tainted by the idea that if something is ambiguous it is poorly explained.

[Visla Eraclaire]

It is certainly one of those words that carries with it a negative connotation, no matter how you're trying to use it, like elitism or materialism.

[Knave]

Hummm. You have a point. :p

I may be tainted by the idea that if something is ambiguous it is poorly explained.

Um... perhaps it is properly explained in such a way that it tells you all and nothing at the same time.


I think we are talking about a mixture of story telling techniques and plot devices right? Wouldn't it be easier to seperate them into things like Humor/Comedy, Suspence, Mystery and Tragedy? I know they are also genres, but you could tell the same story as Suspence, Humor or Tragedy if you used different narratives and story progression.

The use of them as literary techniques is definitely my focus, but anything can be broken down and told in different genres by content alone. So in theory this might be a given.

In practice however, does the use of hindsight help? Like cooking the dish, and then realizing it needs salt and pepper after the first taste? Simply, do you build them from the ground up with intent, or the roof down in the editing?

[Duffy]

He's crazy.

LIKE YOUR MOMMA.

I really will stop now, I promise.

[Hysteria]

connotation

Ahhhhhh! I spent half an hour trying to remember this word.


In practice however, does the use of hindsight help? Like cooking the dish, and then realizing it needs salt and pepper after the first taste? Simply, do you build them from the ground up with intent, or the roof down in the editing?

Duno. If I find out i'll let you know ;)


I have a solo that is nearly finished atm, but I really hate how i've told the story. It is pretty basic in the story progression, it takes place only from my character's perspective (ie doesn't describe anything he can't see), but i am using a 3rd person god narrative (which doesn't make sense...). Theres a few plot twists and Talen (and the reader :-O ) finds out about his past, which is good enough in essences, but my narrator simply can't function during one part of the story where Talen is taken to an aether-like place slightly outside normal perception. Talen's perception is altered but the narrators shouldn't, hence I am forced to describe everything through Talen's eyes, which makes it sound really odd and I have to keep talking about Talen rather than what is going on around him.

The result is a really badly described encounter with someone Talen doesn't remember. In sentence, it sucks (more than duffy's mum... thats right, I went there). So I am going to rewrite the narrative tone, I was going to make it a 3rd person, limited perspective but after this convo I am thinking having Talen narrate it from about say, and hour after the enouncter would probably be better. That way I can also involve the reader more in what Talen is feeling while emphasisings his confusion and childishness.

[Knave]

So I am going to rewrite the narrative tone, I was going to make it a 3rd person, limited perspective but after this convo I am thinking having Talen narrate it from about say, and hour after the enouncter would probably be better. That way I can also involve the reader more in what Talen is feeling while emphasisings his confusion and childishness.

Excellent, we can make an experiment of this! You do that, and we'll see how wity/ironic/ambiguous you can be compared to the before and after!:D

[Hysteria]

As long as you can wait at least 3 weeks, sure. (i have assignments :P)

[Saxon]

I use and mastered them all.

As for suggestions? Learn what dry humor is and get it.

EDIT:


Equivocate with a word that can mean more than one thing, where either would make sense in the situation. I've done this before but I cannot come up with such a word as an example at the moment.

Also do this. Especially when arguing with him. He hates Equivocation.

[Visla Eraclaire]

I use and mastered them all.

As for suggestions? Learn what dry humor is and get it.

He is magnificent when using them, but truly his greatest attribute is his subtlety. This motherfucker is subtle as shit!

SUBTLE AS SHIT

[Saxon]

Ahhhhhh! I spent half an hour trying to remember this word.

Dictionary.com.

Find it. Use it. Love it.



He is magnificent when using them, but truly his greatest attribute is his subtlety. This motherfucker is subtle as shit!

SUBTLE AS SHIT


I should get that as one of my first tattoos.

[Duffy]

About as subtle as being hit over the head with a house brick you mean? :p

[Saxon]

About as subtle as being hit over the head with a house brick you mean? :p

I've been going too easy on you if you think a house brick is what I've been chucking at you, Corky.

[Duffy]

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words always perturb me.

[Saxon]

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words always perturb me.

I think that's the general consensus, yeah.

[Duffy]

Just checking ;)

[Hysteria]

Hyst-.. Wait.. How do you spell the rest of this?.

Dictionary.com ;)

[Saxon]

Dictionary.com ;)

Subtle.