Vampires and their history

[Osato]

Just a note for those reading, this is my suggestion that I've been typing most of the day but piecing together for the past week. It's for discussion and editting and I'd like as many people as play the race, or with them, to give their input whenever.

This is where this stuff would fit in with the Althanas Timeline (http://althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=321)


Approx. 5600 years ago [CDW 4,448]
In truth the true vampire race was not born of a dark, tainted kiss from a vampiric bat, but instead a creation born of the twisted magic’s of the Forgotten. After their defeat during the War of the Tap the Forgotten went into an inform ‘slumber’, leaving the world of Althanas and instead touching it with power now and then. During this time creations and mutilations of the human’s were conducted, considered experiments by the powerful mages.

One of the man experiments was genetic, restructuring the genes of humans and spawning new traits in them. Over centuries the genetic restructuring and testing continued till disgusting mutilations were created. Vampires were one of the children of the Forgotten. In order to spite the victorious elfish nations that had fought the powerful mages a race of immortal blood-sucking undead were created. During this time the first blood rituals* were performed.

Vampirisms, the virus was created by the combined powers of Xem’zhund, Pode, Aesphestos, and Denebriel. From Xem’zhund the race was given their base premise. From the witch Pode the vampires were given the beauty of their race and inability to age. From Aesphestos their immortality came, and from Denebriel came the increase in attributes. What came from the four was the race of Vampires that originally were meant to plague the world of Althanas, feeding and destroying the elven race from the darkness.

3450 years ago [CL 1647]
The disease of Vampirism had spread from the original two through natural birth. The creatures multiplied to the number of 10,000 true bloods. However, the race was cocky, arrogant, and was like a bitter tongue that wagged loose. Most of the Forgotten Ones were pleased still with their creations, but the mage Xem’zhund was growing perturbed with the progress the deadly monsters were making.

Without the knowledge of the other mages, and with a powerful ritual of the necromantic nature, the man turned the true bloods. Their loins became barren and their minds were flooded with the virus. It attacked them from the inside, turning their bodies, twisting their tainted souls. Within the year the entire true blood race of vampires had died and risen again, further spurned and tortured by their virus. No more true bloods were produced after that time, no more vampires born of other vampires.

It was the first time that the original five sects of the vampiric nation truly began to form their hold on the vampiric race. All those that were of the true blood race belonged to one of the five houses of vampiric background…

3000 years ago [CL 2047]
**In addition to info already there**
With the meeting came the inevitable conclusion of a ‘test’. The vampires of Haidia had long since been feeding on the blood of the creatures that roamed the underworld’s realm; to have something from the surface was a mystery to them. Tentatively of course, the first vampire tasted the blood of a living, capture dwarf during one of the many skirmishes. It was the beginning of the vampire’s desire for the blood of the living, breathing races of the surface.

Unfortunately, it was also the first time the vampires found their ability to ‘Sire’ other vampires through the passing of their virus to a surface race. If the true blood bit the other life form they found that without killing it the virus would take hold of the target and literally kill them, reviving them as a much weaker form of vampiric race. But the blood of the dwarves was far too thick and hard to turn, making very few dwarven-vampires and instead killing them without making them undead most of the time.

800 years ago [CP 1001] [1201 DW]
**In addition to info already there**
In order to prepare for the prophesies fulfillment the first of the true blood vampires leave the under-worldly lair of Haidia and begin to scout the world of Althanas. It is the first time that the counter-effects of sunlight, until then never thought about, come to affect the vampires.

500 years ago [CP 1301] [1501 DW]
**In addition to info already there**
It is during these times that ‘Siring’ the now understood vampiric race, little more then demented servants in truth, is begun as a common practice. These vampires are allowed to roam free through the world and the masters of them have little if no control over their creations.

Though the Forgotten Ones see no problem with their creations making smaller forms of themselves, attributing the action as an influence remaining from the when the four originally created the vampires.

200 years ago [CP 1601] [1801 DW]
**In addition to info already there**
More True Blood vampires begin to leave Haidia, looking for the “Keeper”; numbers of the True Bloods dwindle into the 5,000’s.

[grim137]

I like it a lot, good job.

[Osato]

I was worried that people that played vampires might not be able to use it or it might interfere with their history... it's good to hear it'll work for you though.

[Vorin]

It may interfere with my ideas.

However, it is very good. I don't know if I can use it though.

[Dissinger]

Eh this won't work for me either. It is a nice thing though, but I don't think I coudl make it fit. Sorry man.

[Osato]

That's currently the problem. Shit in Althanas is to fuckin' vague and any attempt to make anything more concrete is greeted by people that don't think It'll fit into their characters.

No offense to either of you, I'm stressed and depressed at the moment.

I don't understand why the history is so damned vague about vampires, don't like the fact that a vampire can bullshit their entire history to make it however they want despite the timeline. If we're going to have a timeline and have vampires as a specificly influencing part in the history of Althanas, they need to have something solid for a history and background.

Nobody can take anything seriously around here when everything made and used is, despite being written down as fact, can be changed and up to the person's own ideas.

Now that I'm done ranting for now...

Why can't either of you two use this? Vorin's a vampire, I understand, but what's up with you Diss? You have a vamp char that I don't know about?

[grim137]

Seriously guys, plust its not that hard to modify your stuff a bit. When me and Lorenor did a major quest together in Haidia we each had to merge our stuff on vampires together which required some modifications and changes on both ends. Its not that hard. But then again on the other hand nobody should be forced to obey a storyline in their threads if they don't want to espescially if that storyline is unofficial.

[Dissinger]

Lavinian Pride is being Sired in a thread now as we speak. The Vampires storyline as I had it, have nothing to do with the vampires of Haidia, and rather are formed by vampires who imigrated into the area long after its current residents were forced to evacuate. The history of that is in the mod forums if you'd like to look. I know its me being selfish but the virus thing doesn't work out well for me, as my method of siring is far different, the mere bite doesn't sire the vampire, it takes more than that for me.

The siring is just one of a few other things that don't synch up. Its good, I like it, don't get me wrong Kyle, its just for the purposes of what I have written, it doesn't synch up well enough for me to be able to adopt.

EDIT: And Grim, I would normally agree, however he asked about how well it would fit. Right now we got two different siring methods around althanas, one of which is often enforced as the more plausible way simply because of fear of siring inadvertantly. Until we standardize the vampiric race information, we can't begin to standardize other things.

What we need is a reset and a flat out, here is the information that Althanas would like to see used. Since its been going on for years that anyone can do as they please with plausible explanation I developed my own vampiric society. It isn't till now that I get to use it, and hence why I'm trying to tell him where the inconsistencies show up.

[Cyrus the virus]

I think having an outline on the history of generic 'vampires' is more important than some minor details in someone's story, to be honest. I mean, we have so little set in stone in terms of timeline and you know, information, that Althanas is just so fucking vague for those of us who wish it was more fleshed out as a world.

Hell, what's so bad about changing the names of some places to make it so your story happened in another part of the world, or something like that? It adds more to Althanas a whole rather than furthering the singular mindset a lot of us have.

EDIT: Patty's reasoning is fine, which is why we're open ended like we are. This post is mainly intended for anyone who has a vampire and had them come from some mysterious land nobody knows about... We need to work our histories into the realms we already have if Althanas' regions are ever going to be, like... A word I can't think of =/ Dammit, I hate that.

[Vorin]

I just don't like something so concrete. Vampires should has a fog behind their creation to me, because I have a storyline where different myths will be presented. Now, this can be the 'truth', but Vorin will just treat it as a myth on his search for history. I'm sorry, but other races don't have such concrete backrounds, and even then there are different types. I always saw there being different types of vampires.

I like it, but I have other things planned. Sorry.

[grim137]

I know its me being selfish but the virus thing doesn't work out well for me, as my method of siring is far different, the mere bite doesn't sire the vampire, it takes more than that for me.

Who said there couldn't be other methods of siring. In my quest where Tarry initiatally became a vampire he got sired by having the virus injected straight into him via a needle. In a later solo he was re-sired by cutting his and his new sire's finger tips and then transfering the blood through the openings. I think Osato was just trying to make a common method so to speak and I he never said that there was any reason why vampires couldn't be sired through other methods.

[Dissinger]

However, that wouldn't work per say. As his is a virus is more of an infectious agent than a siring in the sense I have it. There in lies the inconsistency. My vampires are magical creatures, and because of that the biological explanation makes it off, especially when my siring method involves feeding, then having the victim feed from them.

Also, like I explained my vampires had nothing to do with Haidia. Maybe one or two bloodlines might be linked to this, but the majority aren't involved with Haidia as I had intended. I always saw the Haidian vampires as the exiles of the other vampires, wild versus civilized. because of that this makes the divergence between us a bit more pronounced in my head.

[grim137]

Well Diss I always assumed the vampires had wildely different orgins that weren't neccessarily the same as their sires. Through out my stories I've had vampires who grew up in Raiera, Alerar, Corone, Salvar and just about every other nation as mortals, which consequently was where they were sired and where I would consider their origins to be. Their sires may have been from other nations (I never really delved into it that much) but I consider the mortal orgins of a vampire to the their origins (meaning Tarry's origins will always be on his home planet Najin even though he was sired in Raiaera and re-sired in Salver).

[Dissinger]

By not related to Haidia, I'm talking about the fact that the vampiric race that I had been using, was never in Haidia at any point. Hence why the history doesn't synch up on the basic levels. So in this case I'm referring to the fact that the sires would be very different than what he describes for himself. We aren't even talking origin of the recent breed at this point, but rather the base history.

[Ranger]

What we need is a reset and a flat out, here is the information that Althanas would like to see used. Since its been going on for years that anyone can do as they please with plausible explanation I developed my own vampiric society. It isn't till now that I get to use it, and hence why I'm trying to tell him where the inconsistencies show up.

That’s what I’m talking about… we need to formally adopt something that everyone agrees on… but that doesn’t work because some people don’t accept it. I understand that. If people told me that Ranger’s idea of demon’s isn’t working and that I’d have to change things… well I’d be peeved ((though I’m probably retiring Ranger… heh))


I just don't like something so concrete. Vampires should has a fog behind their creation to me, because I have a storyline where different myths will be presented. Now, this can be the 'truth', but Vorin will just treat it as a myth on his search for history. I'm sorry, but other races don't have such concrete backrounds, and even then there are different types. I always saw there being different types of vampires.

That’s the problem. Have you read the timeline? It says one day a couple of vampires walked out of a cave and then there were vampires. I really don’t add anything about where the vampires came from, since they don’t even technically leave Haidia till 500 years prior to current Althanas timelines. What I did was give an actual, feasible background as to how they were created and came to Althanas.


Also, like I explained my vampires had nothing to do with Haidia. Maybe one or two bloodlines might be linked to this, but the majority aren't involved with Haidia as I had intended. I always saw the Haidian vampires as the exiles of the other vampires, wild versus civilized. because of that this makes the divergence between us a bit more pronounced in my head.

No offense Pat (I hope that’s your name) but that would mean that your vampires aren’t even from Althanas… It would be the other way around, since it is already in the history of Althanas that the vampires originally came from Haidia (being the only truly Haidian race on Althanas).

What I purposed is that the “true bloods” that left Haidia (since that’s where they are from) went into Althanas looking for the “Keeper of Antioch Wisdom” as stated by the timeline. It’s not like I changed the timeline at all… just added to it.

As far as siring a vampire, it would still be possible by mostly any means and anyone. The actual siring isn’t anything magical, it’s just some sort of blood transfusion from one vampire with the virus to a person who catches the virus. In all reality if a vampire’s blood mixed with a normal person who had a good immune system the virus could even be caught and killed.


Hell, the biggest thing I’ve said in this is that people can’t be born vampires. All “born vampires” would have to be over 3000 years old if they are going to rped. And that people that have vampire characters that were somehow sired can’t be considered a “true blood” vampire… That’s nothing big, seeing as only my character that I’ve read (don’t know about Vorin yet) have described themselves as a True Blood vampire, and I’m going to resubmit mine to change it so that it fits this if it gets approved by Zieg.

By all means, if you don’t agree then you can rp however you want. But with a possible surge of new players coming from the new advertising I’d like to start getting some races with a firm background. Vampires were the only ones that I could easily do that did not have a concrete background. Personally I think that a race that has the potential to be so powerful, due to racial abilities alone, such as the vampires NEED something concrete because they could be so easily powergamed.

Not only that, but I think that its ridiculous for any race not to have a solid background… I’m personally tired of Althanas’ “We have a history and a timeline, but we don’t want to enforce anything” policy. I know we try for a free place to allow people to use their creativity, but Althanas is supposed to be a fantasy world… as such it needs a base to stand on.

Creativity is still able to be used, but now there is a history for the race. This won’t stunt anyone’s ideas about vampires anymore then without it… except that instead of allowing to have people say that a vampire fell from fuckin’ space and pisses rainbows to sire new people we have something a little substantial.

I would like to see something like this for demons too… since I have no clue where their background comes from or why they are how they are. I have ideas about devils and demons, but can’t really express them since that’s Zieg’s department.

[Koran]

What about vampires who aren't native to Althanas? O.o

[Funji]

Ok, I don't play Vampires, but uhh. Why should you guys standardize a history? That would take a gouge out of the ideals this site was built on. That's like saying "You're a human, you come from here, then you went here" What kind of character development/History building is there in this. If a history is standardized, new vampires are going to submit

personality: blah blah blah

History: See Thread X

and they won't be able to create the fantasy character they TRULY want...ok, I'm done.



EDIT: Why is everyone getting so snappy? I see F*** this and F*** that flying around all because a few guys wanted their characters to remained unchanged (maybe they're women... no offense intended)

[Seether]

You make a good point.

I think Osato was just trying to throw an idea out there. Something that characters could mold into their characters story or choose not to.

Yeah, something like that.

[Cyrus the virus]

I don't really see the issue with it being 'standardized'. To point out something pretty obvious, the most recent thing in the vampire history above happened 200 years ago. I mean, you can write whatever the hell you want about your character, but vampires, as a whole, need an origin. I mean, it's just ridiculous how loose things are when it comes to these kinds of things. It's not dumming down creativity, it's just giving a history of how vampires came to be and branched out... Doesn't mean a stray vampire didn't flee Haidia 1,000 years ago and start his own little siring cult of blood loving.

It's all quite easy to work with, and I like it. Every race needs this, seriously.

[Seether]

Like, furries.

Although...considering the war...that might not be a good thing right now. Could get complicated.

[Osato]

Ok, I don't play Vampires, but uhh. Why should you guys standardize a history? That would take a gouge out of the ideals this site was built on. That's like saying "You're a human, you come from here, then you went here" What kind of character development/History building is there in this. If a history is standardized, new vampires are going to submit

personality: blah blah blah

History: See Thread X

and they won't be able to create the fantasy character they TRULY want...ok, I'm done.

EDIT: Why is everyone getting so snappy? I see F*** this and F*** that flying around all because a few guys wanted their characters to remained unchanged (maybe they're women... no offense intended)

Quite the contrary. The Timeline represents history of humans, but do you see any humans refering to that thread? I don't. And personally I think that if your history is just based on someone else's thread that is already up then you don't have a character, you have a broad background for a race... which is what I posted.

In all truth the Timeline does say humans "come from here, and then went there". But it's very broad and doesn't have anything specific. The background for the vampires is the same thing. It does not specifically say that a single vampire on Althanas went on this single course. Even if it did the person doesn't have to play that vampire character... they can make their own.

In all truth I think that all I did was enlighten an give a depth to a history that was already present. The fact that people are reacting the way they are, as far as background origins, is somewhat rediculous since the origin of the vampires was posted far before I posted this...

As far as the cursing... it's a habit. The Army's really bad for that.


It's all quite easy to work with, and I like it. Every race needs this, seriously.

I agree fully.

[Chidori Draconid]

That would take a gouge out of the ideals this site was built on.

I have to go on record as saying that I have to disagree with you on that. It's not going to stifle the creativity of players on Althanas because no matter what they write about their character the mod is going to approve it. Really I don't see how this does any of the Vampiric characters any harm.

I basically see it as this. If your character believes something else about the origin of the Vampire then so be it, just like judeo-christians believe that the first humans were crafted out of clay and scientists believe that we evolved from primates. Stephen Colbert believes that the Earth began five thousand years ago, while textbooks still say it's much older according to scientific evidence (there are real Christians who believe that. If you're reading I didn't mean that to make fun of you. I'm just trying to prove a point here). Not everyone has to agree with it.

Survani and the very origins of Fallien contradict the Elder Thayne Lore, and so does the religion of Raiaera. You don't see every Raiaeran High Elf being a devout follower of the religion Sighter Tnailog worked so hard to create, do you? I'm pretty sure Letho made a batch of deities for Corone as well, and you don't see them mentioned or recognized by the others. There are even some characters in Althanas who don't believe in the Tap or the Forgotten Ones, but they're here and that doesn't stop us from playing or being creative.

You don't have to follow this, and for those of you who do, great, but I think it's very petty to reject something just because it doesn't exactly match what you're doing.

I say put it up. Make it official, and if you guys don't want to follow it then fine. Someone will.


Why is everyone getting so snappy? I see F*** this and F*** that flying around all because a few guys wanted their characters to remained unchanged

That's how things are done in Japanese and British Parliament and things get done way faster than they do with the U.S. Congress. Profanity works. It's a fact. lol

[Vorin]

I don't really see the issue with it being 'standardized'. And what if they standardize where magic comes from, entirely. I've heard of one source, but what if other players have other ideas for their magic? It takes away from some of the intrigue.


You don't have to follow this, and for those of you who do, great, but I think it's very petty to reject something just because it doesn't exactly match what you're doing. Did you know anyone who follows althanas cannon is awarded extra rewards in quests and at registration? Can you tell me that's not pressure to actually follow the ideas? What if they stated where dieties came from, and it was different from your explaniation?

I'm going to say my one real problem with this.


Vampires were one of the children of the Forgotten. In order to spite the victorious elfish nations that had fought the powerful mages a race of immortal blood-sucking undead were created. During this time the first blood rituals* were performed. Why are vampires always a plague? It's always someone's bane, or their curse. I don't know why people just don't see vampires for what they are. Normal creatures that kill to live. It's nature, but everyone seems to think their some sort of ailment on the land. I don't like this explaniation, and I had planned for another, atleast for Vorin's history. But if this is cannon mine is just some stupid idea no one will look at so I might as well just not do it. And believe me, there will always be people who argue against my explanation if I use it.

Edit: Oh, and I don't like the idea of vampire cities. I just don't think that would work on a technical level and in general. Wolves hunt in packs because they take down game bigger then themselves. Vampires kill game their size and finish it all.

[Cyrus the virus]

Well, for one thing, we're not discussing magic. But if we were, I'd say it's a fucking good idea, because right now it's just so random that magic exists in the first place. I'd certainly tie Luc's magic into this source as soon as it was made.

[Vorin]

Well, for one thing, we're not discussing magic. But if we were, I'd say it's a fucking good idea, because right now it's just so random that magic exists in the first place. I'd certainly tie Luc's magic into this source as soon as it was made. What if it didn't fit your character's magic type? What if it changed Luc into something you never envisioned?

[Jasmine]

as would I for Jasmine's magic...currently, since it's not standarized, she has no idea where her magic abilities come from and kinda takes it for granted that they are there for her race.

as far as standarizing a race, I think it's a great idea. According to the timeline, most vampires by now would have been sired in some way or another. I don't see why as far as that goes, that you just simply don't standardize how one may be sired and let there be as many ways as there are people to think of them.

The only problem I see with this is this:


the biggest thing I’ve said in this is that people can’t be born vampires. All “born vampires” would have to be over 3000 years old if they are going to rped.

what do those characters, like Nightsangel do then? Her character was born to a vampire family, but Sivi is only 99 vampiress years old.

I have jasmine's race fully developed and explained in my profile. I did that for the approval mod's sake, but it works. The only thing I haven't done with it, or the native people of the island, is give them deities.

EDIT: Why don't we try this bright idea? try to amagulate as many ideas of the players as can be fitted into the history. For instance, we have the original Haidan vampires.... will it really make that big a difference if you allow for a small group to have left much earlier than the "orginal" group and for that first, unknown, group to have multiplied on the surface and developed differently than the Haidan ones? Enough so that they were the same species, vampire, but they were different like a human from China is entirely different from one born in the depths of Africa?

[Chidori Draconid]

Can you tell me that's not pressure to actually follow the ideas?
In my opinion that's encouragement. If you want pressure go to Alleria and try to register a Gravity Mage. No matter how weak, they won't let you because their 'libraries' don't mention such. The incentives for remaining accurate to the background information of Althanas are small (200 exp, another 100 gp), and if I, the level 0, am not encouraged to stick to Althanas' story then I don't suspect there will be many people who will be.

What if they stated where dieties came from, and it was different from your explaniation?The mods aren't going to stop us, and aren't allowed to stop us from doing our own thing. Hell, my character is a God who hung out with an Elder Thayne Deity at a party, and is now assisting Survani with her only son. No one's stoping me.

Why are vampires always a plague? It's always someone's bane, or their curse. I don't know why people just don't see vampires for what they are. Normal creatures that kill to live. It's nature, but everyone seems to think their some sort of ailment on the land. I don't like this explaniation, and I had planned for another, atleast for Vorin's history. By all means do it. No one's stoping you. In fact you could have an entire following of Vampire PC's that follow your beliefs based on the evidence that you dig up. I'm not saying that Osato's origin is wrong/right or that yours is wrong/right. But neither's creativity will have been stifled. Plus if Osato's is in the history of Althanas it will cause a more realistic social effect among the PC's. Let's be frank, not many people are going to buy into a benign origin for Vampires, which would make your cause all the more realistic.

[Cyrus the virus]

What if it didn't fit your character's magic type? What if it changed Luc into something you never envisioned?

It wouldn't happen. If magic came from a Tap, as mentioned, I'd perhaps make it so Luc was somehow born of the Tap, since I have an opening in his history since his parents are hardly mentioned. Or I'd just put a line in his magic section about how he 'weaves the threads of the Tap that are within the elements', or something like that, like he has a natural ability to do it.

I can't think of anything we can do with magic that would hinder Luc or his character, or my vision of what his magic is... I think it's all about being flexible, and not even very flexible, you know?

I guess I'm defensive here because I've longed to see this type of thing fleshed out for a long time, and seeing people against it for these reasons is bugging me a bit. I mean really, no matter what explanations Osato writes up, you can always do something different in the end.

Fuck I love this website.

[Vorin]

I'm not saying that Osato's origin is wrong/right or that yours is wrong/right. No, it does mean Osato's is right. His is the cannon and OOCly seen as the story. Mine will always be wrong. His will be on the offical timeline and fully fleshed out. His will be recgonized by other people. His is right. That's kinda' what the history is. Of course I can have another origin story, but it will only be a story, and his will always be the truth.


The incentives for remaining accurate to the background information of Althanas are small (200 exp, another 100 gp), and if I, the level 0, I was an RoG mod, I know the registration rewards. But do you know judges reward players using althanas history in their quests? These things add up after a few quests.

Of course there will always be a way to put a hole in things, but isn't it more fair if people work together on this instead of one person writing it all up? Osato has valid ideas but they shouldn't be his ideas alone.

[Cyrus the virus]

I'm sure anyone else is welcome to post their thoughts and ideas, which is why he posted it.

But really, is your character's history anything beyond a 'story' now? The only difference between now and (if it's approved) when Osato's timeline here is put up, is that other vampire characters will have something to work with, not to mention anyone else who wants to have a vampire storyline that has something to do with Althanas history. The 'truth' of Vorin's history won't be any different.

Not to be mean, but it's not like people look at Vorin's history as an outline of the vampire legion or whatever, you know? No character's history is supposed to be the tell-all of a race unless they made it up. No, it won't fit with everyone's character if race histories and such go up, but it'll add fleshiness to this bare-bones Althanas world we have right now. In the future, people can use the outlines to make good characters and share in a race even if they've never talked with anyone on Althanas before.

I mean, I see plenty of positives here, and the only negative seems to be that it doesn't work with some individual characters' histories.

[Vorin]

My truth is never meant to be for other people. That's why if such things were left a mystery, everyone can have there own outlight. Racial origins are vampires does not need to be some biology expirement to get back at elves. It can be left more vague than it already is. I understand your want to tie everyone together but it doesn't need to be such an absolute.

Cyrus, this doesn't effect your character in the least. If it did, you wouldn't be so easy to judge. This is not some petty insult or attempt to get you mad, but I've seen you get defencive when your character is brought into things. You made your history flexable, however some of us have planned things out.

[Cyrus the virus]

If your story isn't meant for anyone but you, why does it matter if it doesn't tie perfectly in with this timeline dealie?

And yeah, as I said earlier, if this effected my character at all it wouldn't be bothering me as much as it's bothering you. I try to keep things in perspective, that perspective being that Althanas > Me. If we came up with a timeline for the Drow that clashed with Izvilvin's profile, which revolved entirely around the current timeline in the RPC, I'd simply make some changes. Of course I wouldn't like it, but I'd understand.

I get defensive when people say Luc is overpowered, and honestly can't remember getting defensive about any other aspect of him. This issue here hasn't got anything to do with power or magic or whatever. So you know... Your point there sucks.

EDIT: Another thing, you've made five in character posts with this Vorin character on this Althanas board incarnation... So honestly, upon learning that, I've got to ask how you can possibly be so bent out of shape over this. It's not like any of your threads have to change.

[Chidori Draconid]

but isn't it more fair if people work together on this instead of one person writing it all up? Osato has valid ideas but they shouldn't be his ideas alone.Although he's not here at the moment, I'm pretty sure this is what pissed Osato off because you certainly weren't contributing right off the bat. All you said was that it wasn't going to work instead of asking him to modify it here or there. Even asking him to make a huge change may have been fine, but you and Dissinger simply rejected the idea, and didn't give any constructive criticism until after Osato went on a profane tyrade. If you support the idea of people trying to work together then it would be much more productive to do so from the very beginning.

I'm pretty sure that way back in the day when someone was cooking up the Forgotten Ones that someone else had a different idea as to who they were, and someone had to make a compromise, or everyone had to make a compromise when it all went onto the Timeline. If there's going to be a Vampire history then are you willing to compromise? Are you willing to spill the beans on what you planned on having your character discover about his race? Or can you advocate a history more detailed than the current history yet vague enough for you to continue on your own quest? Remember, you're not the only Vampire on Althanas, and it seems as though at least one supports Osato's history. Bottom line, if you want everyone to work together on this (which is going to cause a clash of minds and egos, that's Chidori's Prophecy) then you're going to have to sacrifice alot of what you planned, which is only fair.

EDIT: And I can guarantee you that it is very risky in any pbp site with any kind of history to tamper with that history as a normal player. That's why you don't see many archeologists or time travelers even in sci fi. Doesn't matter where you are, so you were kind of asking for a conflict sooner or later.

[Letho]

You people are arguing rather needlessly in my opinion. If you like the history, use it. If you don't, then write and follow your own, it's as easy as that. Nobody says that what Osato posted is the ultimate truth about the vampires any more then Madison's Raiaera history is the ultimate truth about all the elves. It's for Haidian vampires and Raiaeran elves. You can use that info and make somebody from those regions, or you can make an elf or a vampire that originates outside those regions. Letho is a human, but he comes from Savion which has a complete history of its own where Savion is the cradle of all humans and it has nothing to do with Corone humans or any other humans for that matter. And that's the beauty of Althanas. You can write stuff like that.

For all those of you that are for this standardization of history, I will say to chill. Corone is one of the most vague regions and because everything is possible there, it has the most activity. It doesn't burden a person with thousand and one detail and gives a lot of freedom. Let's keep history like that as well. Don't force something onto the players if they don't want to.

For all those of you who are against any standardization, I would have to say to chill too. Nobody is forcing you to use it and I know that as a judge, I won't penalize anybody who says that he's a vampire which doesn't fit into Osato's or any other history. And I assure you, the bonuses for implementing the regions info and history isn't that high. And besides, we're not here to whore our stories and characters for EXP last time I looked.

[grim137]

About the whole vampires such as sivi being born and not sired thing. Thats easy. Nobody said you couldn't give genetic modifications and stuff to your vampires. Hell I wrote an entire thing up on different vampires (which mostly dealt with class and race) my self which detailed several different types of vampires. If you want to have a day walker or a fertile vampire simply say they are a different breed or genetically unique or something (in my storyline fertility among vampires is considered the equivilant of a birth defect).

Vorin you can still create your own origins for vampires even if they aren't offical. Besides an easy way to tie your stuff in and make it work with this stuff is simply say your character doesn't believe the "offical" origin story and believes his own. Then you can have play your character however you want and you won't get penalized. Hell if your system is deep enough you might get bonus points or the character section for fleshing out your character's beliefs so much.

Also Osato specifically said that his stuff was "up for disscussing and editing". So those of you such as Vorin and Dissinger who have such a problem with this maybe you could suggest some changes/compromises to help make this official stuff fit in easier with your storylines.

[Vorin]

I'm going with Letho's advice and washing my hands of this arguement. We've all got a little heated and I know we all like to argue our points and prove how smart we are.

Anything I suggest wouldn't be an edit, it'd change the core idea of the genetic expiriement thing to something a tad more mystical. I doubt Osato's willing to change it that deeply.

Now.


EDIT: Another thing, you've made five in character posts with this Vorin character on this Althanas board incarnation... So honestly, upon learning that, I've got to ask how you can possibly be so bent out of shape over this. It's not like any of your threads have to change. The one thread I'm in now would be changed if I followed cannon, and every thread that branched from that one thread I have planned. That's why I was bent out of shape.

[Osato]

Why are vampires always a plague? It's always someone's bane, or their curse. I don't know why people just don't see vampires for what they are. Normal creatures that kill to live. It's nature, but everyone seems to think their some sort of ailment on the land. I don't like this explaniation, and I had planned for another, atleast for Vorin's history. But if this is cannon mine is just some stupid idea no one will look at so I might as well just not do it. And believe me, there will always be people who argue against my explanation if I use it.

Edit: Oh, and I don't like the idea of vampire cities. I just don't think that would work on a technical level and in general. Wolves hunt in packs because they take down game bigger then themselves. Vampires kill game their size and finish it all.

That’s like asking why a mosquito is considered a pain? They suck blood, they carry viruses, in all truth they are the insect version of a vampire. I don’t know many that would believe any creature that saps the blood from a person in order to live isn’t considered a pain or all of humanities bane.

I don’t know where you think your character was supposed to come from… but if you read the current Timeline then there ARE vampire cities. It’s kinda stupid of anyone to say that they don’t like the cities, or the history, because those are already established… just read.


Why don't we try this bright idea? try to amagulate as many ideas of the players as can be fitted into the history. For instance, we have the original Haidan vampires.... will it really make that big a difference if you allow for a small group to have left much earlier than the "orginal" group and for that first, unknown, group to have multiplied on the surface and developed differently than the Haidan ones? Enough so that they were the same species, vampire, but they were different like a human from China is entirely different from one born in the depths of Africa?

That’s exactly why I posted the bloody thing out here instead of in the mods forum where I could have just let it get looked at by Santh and Zieg and approved without anyone’s input. I think this is more then fair since most of the decisions that affect Althanas and affect the people’s continental roleplaying aren’t even given to the people for approval.

Also, Jas, if Sivi wanted to be born True Blood but only be 99 years old then it could easily be a birth-defect, or some form of magic. They do have the undefined “blood rituals” that anyone can interpret as they want. That can really be the reason behind all little differences, or maybe the original 5 elders were different. Who knows really.


The one thread I'm in now would be changed if I followed cannon, and every thread that branched from that one thread I have planned. That's why I was bent out of shape.

Then don’t follow the damned cannon. Do what you want, everyone around here does anyway. If you just don’t follow the history then you are still going to do whatever you want. If you are going to be petty about trashing the entire history of vampires that is already established in the Timeline because YOU don’t like it, get over it. I just added little things, and the fact that you got angry over the origins of Vampires, the “supposed” original purpose of them that happened 5600 years before is ridiculous. I mean, if elves were originally created by the gods to destroy humans over 20,000 years ago (just an example) that doesn’t mean that they still harbor those feelings. Vampires are beings with conscious and the ability to choose what path they follow… just like any others.

[Futsuriai]

I'd like to say something very simple here:

The "World" of Althanas is but a very small part of the entirety of the landmass. Beyond the playable continents and established histories there lie lands unknown with people unknown and histories unknown. Practically any conflicting racial history can be resolved through their well-planned use, Cory, your vampires could actually have spawned elsewhere and perhaps be vampires in name only as their underlying physiology differs but this even happened too long ago for any to remember. This allows for well defined history which, to me, is what Althanas should focus on now as otherwise it's hard to achieve certain character effects such as fulfilling "real" prophecies, legends, finding out "true" histories, etc. which to many might not matter but, for me, those events are seriously among the most fascinating to read.

I love world building, what can I say?

[Walter]

I've been following the argument for a while, and I think I'd like to start addressing some points so we can use this thread appropriately. We seem to be arguing a lot over whether or not this basic vampire history works as it is. There are such things as rough drafts after all. If people like Dissinger and Vorin could start throwing in ideas to enrich the history that Osato has already put forth, and if Osato has an open mind and is willing to edit his history appropriately, then we could actually start making progress here.

Vorin has a few points here that haven't been ignored, but really haven't been considered as far as ideas FOR this history go.

1. Vampires as a plague - This idea has sort of been overdone as far as vampires go. They're usually portrayed as an evil race because they prey on other sentient species. To most civilized races, vampires would generally be thought of as evil because of the route they take in the struggle for... unlife. But that doesn't mean that vampires had to be created to be a plague in the first place. Their genesis involves the fact that they need to consume blood to survive, like a mosquito, but the vampire is a sentient creature with its own self-perceptions. It wasn't necessarily born as an evil thing. I'd like it if this could be considered.

2. Vampirism as a virus - Something about this strikes me as being particularly science-fiction in nature, although I'm aware that magical maladies do exist in fantasy settings. Still, I've always felt that vampires could choose who they sired. Keeping the main Haidian vampires as 'virus carriers' seems to limit their choices a bit. I do, however, think that the gods involved in the creation of these creatures were appropriate choices. I... don't think I've articulated this as well as I could. I'll be back with more thoughts on it a little later.

3. Vampire Cities - Vorin understands that these things are already well-established in the main history. But I do think he has a point about the technical issue. Vampires need blood to survive, so how much blood would an entire city of them require per-feeding period in order for them all to survive?

What we need here is to mesh our individual stereotypes and ideas together, and not just look at one and say whether or not it fits with what we have in mind.

I'll probably return with more thoughts on the matter later, but must be going now!

[Osato]

1) I ALREADY went over that... that's how they started, the reason they drink blood. It doesn't have to be the reason they still do it now, times change, and without the Forgotten Ones to continually change where they thrive and why they live then nothing really is left to the creators anymore. The Vampires are what they are.

And this also, always, get turned into "We don't want vampires to represent evil". I don't believe in good and evil, but instead in the influences of the society around those being influenced. If you are a cannible eating people common day occurance, if you grew in a high-elf society eating people could be both considered grotesque and a crime.

NOTHING is evil upon creation, but chooses to do as they do.

2) The virus is a genetic mutation of the original host. -shrug- It made sense to me. Use magic to tear out parts of the DNA and magically add details to it. I was trying to portray how a person could be changed. My imagination puts the actual change of the first experiment as one of the most painfully disgusting things imaginable.

3) Again, I feel like a broken record. That was already in the history, I had nothing to do with it. If you have a problem with it don't take it up in here, bitch at the Timeline that has it in there... seriously, it won't change no matter what you imagine or think. The cities were there, how they were there could be through "blood rituals", say... turn water to blood, then you'd have fountains at the center of the city that spout gallons of blood per minute. I'm sure I've heard of that somewhere...

Also, as pointed out by me and Cyrus (I believe) this was a rough draft and put up here for consideration and editing. I also said that I could have just posted this in the mods forums, had Cyrus say good job and Zieg say approved, and then instituted it. You all would not have had any say, so how bout you do something constructive...

INSTEAD of giving the idea shit and attacking the stupid stuff that I didn't write (such as the city and the fact that vampires ARE from Haidia) how about adding what you think should be fixed.

[Futsuriai]

Believe or not this argument has happened before.

Here's the proof. (http://www.mortierbrigade.com/materazzi/?id=67414)

Also...I still find my solution to be best, Vorin's vampires could be something that's not a canonical vampire in genotype while displaying a very similar phenotype. Oh, also, philosophically quibbling I disagree that nothing is born evil but becomes it through their actions; things and people are judged evil or not depending not on the action but on the judge.

[Osato]

Thanks man, we needed that.

[Dissinger]

INSTEAD of giving the idea shit and attacking the stupid stuff that I didn't write (such as the city and the fact that vampires ARE from Haidia) how about adding what you think should be fixed.


I wasn't attacking the idea, you asked if I could use it, and I said I could not.

I cannot help you because fundamentally the idea of vampire to you and me are different. Hence why I have dropped out of the arguement. You're only opponent on this one is Vorin because I can see celarly that I cannot change this, you want to write it, fine. I even told you it was good and offer support for it, and you chose to emphasize the bad.

As far as stating my vampires are not vampires if they don't come from Haidia, fine, they aren't. I concede the point as you seem to be rather vehement and I don't wish to argue it. I will be more than happy to say my "vampires" don't come from Haidia then, and will instead just drop completely out.

As far as the experimentation thing, it still doesn't sit well with me, especially since you have described it as a virus that "infects" its victims then makes them become lesser vampires. It jsut doesn't sit well with me as I see my vampires as far more magical than glorified plague rats. Yes, I realized I just said it, yes I understand you're going to be more than pissed because of all the heat you were getting elsewhere. No, I refuse to take it back, as that is what you describe them as in a very blunt way.

So, in recap this is what I will say;

1) I support your written sotry.

2) To answer your first question, no I cannot use it.

3) To answer your second question, no I have nothing to offer as I am against it on a fundamental level that is detrimental to it.

4) Yes, I still support it and encourage others making vampires to use this information.

5) I will not use the cannon material as you have requested.

[Tigereye]

I seem to recall Althanas supposed to being something of a creative writing workshop. As such, having just one cannonical history is rather constricting.

It is not hard to simply say, in an OFFICIAL sense, that evidence merely suggests all that.

Or if you DO want things more concrete, just have several, possibly even conflicting, histories uploaded officially. Then just let people pick and choose. Two people with two different histories? No problem! They don't have to write together, or if they want to, they can find a way to compromise. That's how it's been done in the past, there's no reason it cannot be done on a more official basis.

Personally, I empathize strongly with Vorin and after this latest post, find Dissigner quite awesome. I don't see any problem with people fleshing out their own histories like they have in the past. And I also think Osato is overreacting maybe just a bit. But I realize how frusterating it must be to have your hard work rejected. (even though reading it as a third party, nobody seemed like they were being the slightest bit harsh or tearing into anything, except those being defensive.)

Really, it's an awesome history. And I think it would be awesome to read about functionally in a story... but to be honest I don't see it as the official Althanas history of vampirism. It simply differs too much from what I think a lot of people would want out of their vampires, in both flavour and mechanics. (although I could definately see it as AN official Althanas history of vampirism, if we can go with the multiple possibly conflicting histories route)

That might be interesting.

(I think what Vorin meant about him just writing it for himself, and it not mattering anymore if there's an official history... what it is, is he's not writing his history for other people to use, it's just for his character... but as far as his character is concerned, it is the TRUTH. If there is an official history that differs, either it cheapens his own(because his would then be wrong.), or his character becomes delusional. And as can easily be seen by both sides, people care a lot about the things they've put effort into.

And I was going to write more, but I think I failed to get across my intent even with all that I wrote, so I'll come back later once I'm sure.



It also might be interesting to just make the scale of effect for these vampires that are in historified here, and then just have lots of different kinds of vampire that aren't even necessarily related to eachother... all would really be vampires. And that way there's lots of room for people to, without violating althanas cannon, have complete creative control over what they want their vampire to be. (well, maybe not complete, but still a good deal.)

okay, now I'm really done for now.

[Osato]

Umm... most of what you said was jibberish to me. Multiple histories is a dumb idea, since that would mean the Timeline would become a jumbled mess of maybe this or that... This was supposed to be an addition to the Timeline present.

Currently we already HAVE A single history put up there, and it doesn't seem to conflict at all with roleplaying at the moment... people that rp out of corone and go to Salvar have no troulbe (though the two are distrustful of each other)... I've seen people go from Alerar to Raiaera and not say a single thing about differences in the culture, atmosphere, or even relations.

So that won't work. As for different types of vampires, we already have that... and it was already explained by Grim earlier.

[Cyrus the virus]

You're crazy if you think writers don't have to work within guidelines already, anyway. If anything, this is a good writing excercise.

[Tigereye]

It was just an idea. :P But I don't see what's wrong with having alternative histories for people who want to use something different in flavor or style for their creative purposes, on an official basis. What my idea would be is you could upload this, or its descendant, as that Addition to the Timeline as Present, but if there are more in the future there would be nothing wrong with uploading those too as "or you could use this instead."

I know there are already guidlines, I'm not saying just let people write about whatevertheheck they feel like writing, but Althanas hadn't had just one intricately detailed history for the races in the past, and I don't see what's wrong with that either. You already have more guidelines than some message boards of a similar style, and that seems to be the success, but if you do too much it could be stifling. Because I've seen that also. It's GOOD to set up things as they are NOW, but if you delve into the past things get messy.

It's not like Althanas is a terribly concrete place, you already have the whole liquid time thing set up.


I'll probably rewrite my last post maybe... I was seriously up too late when I wrote it.


Eh. Just an idea though. But I don't think you made it easier on yourself by doing vampires rather than a more mainstream fantasy race. There are different versions of all of them true... but it's hardly ever as contrasting with other PoVs as with vampires...

[Cyrus the virus]

If you'd read the rest of this thread, you'd know people are still free to completely ignore this timeline and make a vampire of their own. The outline is there to add the 'official' vampire history, the kind of stuff you'd read in character, in a history book.

[Tigereye]

I did read the rest of the thread, and from it I somehow got a completely different vibe from it.

If that's the case, and the history would merely what characters would think about where vampires came from and are like ICly, then I'm no longer clear on Vorin's problem is. I suppose it's just a misscommunication then.

I think people may think I was trying to argue, if that's the case than I apologize. I tend to just discuss whatever pops into my head at one moment or another.

[Cyrus the virus]

No no, it's okay. You're allowed your opinion, and I don't think any less of you for it.

...OR DO I LOL!!!

[Alberdyne_Cormyr]

(For the record for those of you who don't know I'm Pavel AKA The Vampire Lorenor on Pre-Crash Althanas. I worked on developing the current Haidia history as it exists now thanks to Zieg's personal recommendations of me)

Ease up on the noobies Matt.

I feel that the current discussion on vampire history was partially my fault. I was asked by Zieg to Storytell Haidia (A task I admit I felt that I was inadequate for) and complike the missing pieces of the history. I felt that since this was such a huge task I wanted to organize the source material that already existed and provide SOME (Not a complete) version of the history that the vampires called their own.

It was stated throughout the history of Haidia that the vampires left their caves at some point or another. Is is perfectly valid that OTHER vampire communities were established all around Althanas. Also--the explanation of the vampires as I envisioned were to make ALTHANAS vampires more solidified and give them a storyline people could work off of. I considered many things as I was writing the historical files (Big up to Patt and Zieg for their input and many others who were helping me out at the time) I envisioned that vampires were the race that ruled the Haidia wilderness.

Whilst Demons kept to their cities and Dwarves kept to the caves and mountains I wanted to have a LOGICAL explanation of what would motivate the vampire nation to invade the Great Cave Town and basically terra form it.

I wanted the Vampire Nation to mirror the historical process that lead to the development of modern day Corone. I thought there should be a lot of continuity between the two since I wanted Vampire society to kind be a perverted version of human society. (Think an extreme version of the Roman Empire) I had a bit of trouble creating the Elders and making them in such a way that it could fit the current Althanas Mythos I had to work with at the time. I wanted CERTAIN established historical references for the Elders (Within Vampire legends) but keep them as a mystery as well.

In this way I felt that players could have a chance to interpret them however they wanted working with a guideline that was already there. That's why I was shooting more for ambiguity and mystery. I wanted the Elders to actually be the first Althanas Vampires to develop the ability to Embrace others into the Vampire fold.

Right now, the Elders are in hibernation (Within their respective capitol cities and something like in Underworld) and it takes a special process to awaken them. They have representatives to do nightly business for them and ensure the success of the Vampire community at large.

Writing the vampire history was a challenge since I had a lot of reference to draw from from, but I was clearly going for something like White Wolf's The Masquerade. The Vampires manipulate things behind the scene. I'm a little bit sad that so many people are arguing over such small issues with the Vampire community but my ultimate goal WAS to allow people to interpret things however they wanted to intepret things.

I hope this helps shed some light on the subject. I wanted to keep the Elders a mystery.