View Full Version : Question regarding the Aleraran Dark Elves
TheSongsOfSorrow
05-31-10, 11:45 PM
I have a question about the ages of elves, mostly regarding when they are considered adults.
When does an Aleraran Dark Elf pass from his/her tweens into adulthood?
Hopefully someone can help me with this question, so I can move along and get this stinky character up for approval.
Thank you in advance for your help!
((Edit: Twenty views and still no help. Very close knit community here on althanas, obviously... Thanks ;) ))
Savas Tigh
06-01-10, 05:01 PM
Ah, don't be a smartass. :p
And the answer is vague because Elves always age differently according to each player. Some will age as normal humans do...others "are 700 years old (looks 20)."
It's basically up to you and your personal canon. In my book, they just age like humans until about ~30-ish, then it slows down so much that you don't even notice the arrival of a wrinkle until fifty years after you get it.
EDIT: And just to lend credibility to the above: I'm the player for Caden Law, and an ex-Judge and former Continent Writer. :)
Taskmienster
06-01-10, 05:33 PM
You could just go with the basic "Elves are the same as humans in terms of adulthood at 100". I think that's standard DnD.
If you don't see it set in stone, we probably don't really have it set in stone for a reason yet. Everyone plays immortal or really old races a little different, so we don't complain.
Visla Eraclaire
06-01-10, 06:40 PM
There is no DnD standard even, different settings have their elves age to different maximum ages and at different rates. Sometimes they live to 200, sometimes to 2000 or more.
I think the most sensible progression in terms of aging is that they mature to "adulthood" at the same age as humans, around 18, though they continue to be treated largely like "children" until almost their first century. Being physically a child for decades is problematic. Growing to physical maturity and then stopping, allowed to spend centuries learning and perfecting oneself fits more with the general idea of an elf, in my mind.
Gable Rose
06-01-10, 07:23 PM
True enough. Never really was into DnD. Physical maturity and mental maturity are different.
Tolken put it that they grew until fifty as children, then entered puberty between 50 and 100. Elven puberty, that is something I've rarely seen explored. Given that their physical growth is impeded wouldn't their mental growth likewise be different from a humans?
I knew someone once who played every aspect of Elven development as being slower than a human. She had a character that was 12, and he was barely into the toddler stage of development.
Visla Eraclaire
06-01-10, 08:00 PM
My biggest point against the slow childhood is the infrequency with which you see elven children. If they stayed childlike for decades, you'd think there would be more elf-kids. Similarly, while they might mature psychologically at a slower rate, most of intellectual and emotional maturity for humans doesn't actually come through a physiological process, but through the accumulation of experience.
It's hard not to accumulate a reasonable amount of experience in fifty to a hundred years, even if you live at a slower elven pace. All in all, old children just creep me out and the whole thing seems very unsettling.
It might work well for sinister elves, but aging to physical prime and then remaining there for centuries still just seems like the most elegant, elf-like way for things to be.
Be original. As far as I can tell, we have no rules defining the races and the same question could be asked for vampires, demons, and all the other races on Althanas. Personally, I'd like you to go through with the elven childhood thing solely because we never see elven children, and that would be something fairly new.
So far, elves are promoted as androgynous superhuman (lets face it they are humans only "better") unintentionally egotistical saints. When you get down to it, when are all these Elves doing anything, but looking pretty? When do they learn grace? I'd like to see a story in which they get drilled in the art of being superior beings rather than simply poofing them into adults with all their attributes.
Heck, what does an Elf's childhood look like? Given that as a race they are like pandas, too refined to breed - and would sooner die - there cannot be many of them. Imagine a little elfling wandering into town solely because he is lonely and all the adults are too busy being mature. Imagine a kid twenty-five years old being drilled by his tutor in a thorough course on botany or even dancing. Imagine an elf having to actually learn poise so he doesn't shame his immaculate ancestry.
Also, I'd like to say one thing on experienced children. When has a child ever been portrayed as just a child? Most fiction involving them gives them maturity and clarity of thought which outstrips realty's equivalent. Children rarely contemplate what fictitious children find they have to think about in daily life to entertain older readers.
Visla Eraclaire
06-01-10, 09:01 PM
I agree that over-mature children are a problem. That's why I would try to avoid the elvish situation exacerbating it.
Knave is right about just doing something unexpected and original, so long as you think it through. Pick a rule, figure out its consequences, and apply them consistently. Playing elves are just "better" humans is boring though. I prefer to look at the genuine consequences of a long lifetime, including bitterness, detachment, and a short of flightiness about things shorter-lived races would consider extremely dire.
"Oh, thousands of people are going to die, are they? Well, I've seen about fifty thousand die in my life so far, and I imagine it'll be close to a million in the final accounting. Best of luck with that."
Caden Law
06-02-10, 01:26 PM
I agree that over-mature children are a problem. That's why I would try to avoid the elvish situation exacerbating it.
Knave is right about just doing something unexpected and original, so long as you think it through. Pick a rule, figure out its consequences, and apply them consistently. Playing elves are just "better" humans is boring though. I prefer to look at the genuine consequences of a long lifetime, including bitterness, detachment, and a short of flightiness about things shorter-lived races would consider extremely dire.
"Oh, thousands of people are going to die, are they? Well, I've seen about fifty thousand die in my life so far, and I imagine it'll be close to a million in the final accounting. Best of luck with that."
When doing this, you have to be careful to avoid being offputting or wangsty. Proper angst is one thing, but a character whose whole existence boils down to "I'll live forever so what do you matter? :rolleyes:" or "Who wants to live forever? :(" is really, really annoying.
And also: Ignore anyone telling you to be original. Cliches become cliche because they work. Knave's own character looks like the knock-off spawn of a couple generations worth of Nyarlathotep worshippers from the Lovecraft Mythos with a few generic Signs of Villainy scattered in to give a moral perspective. Visla is basically a stock subversion of a Mary Sue waif spellcaster. I refuse to comment on my own characters, but I'm sure anyone can pick out about ninety atrocious stereotypes in any one of them. :p
Originality is irrelevant. An enjoyable story is all that matters. If you find a formula that works, whether it's older than dirt or fresh as newly cut grass, go with it. :)
Visla Eraclaire
06-02-10, 02:00 PM
I disagree with that characterization. What the hell would a "stock subversion" be? I think she subverts a lot of RPG character tropes, but she plays others straight, averts others, etc. I think the attempt to box it all in as "stock" this and "stock" that is really arrogant. I think it wasn't meant to be insulting, but I found it blithe and symptomatic of a sort of "seen it all before" mentality that gets really tiresome, especially if you spend any time on TVTropes which I suspect Caden does.
I should correct myself about saying "be original" though. Be original if it works and you have a good idea. If you don't, people have been reading stories about generic elves for a good long time. There's no need to reinvent the wheel, but if six different people are trying to sell you six different types of wheel that all have dubious pedigrees, it probably couldn't hurt to make your own, if you know how to make a wheel. That's a really strained analogy, but I was determined to get through it.
Finally, my example elf would make a good side character. I would never write something centering on such a person, because as Caden said it would get extremely irritating. Though I might mention that when I write them such elves tend to be very friendly and interested in things, just non-committal and privately conflicted. I think they're only slightly more likely than normal humans to get irritating, only because you have an extra hurdle in making their feelings relatable.
TheSongsOfSorrow
06-02-10, 04:05 PM
Thanks for all the help everyone!
I've got a pretty good idea of what I want to do with this character overall. I've researched what you guys have in the (rather outdated) Alerar Almenac, which gave me a lot of information. The only thing is that under most of the other region Alms. the age range is either listed, or basically implied. I didn't want to make some old tart elf whose been around forever, but has yet to obtain a wrinkle or single sign of aging. I just want a character that I can develope as if he were just reaching his prime, which is why I asked the question.
The whole Alerar idea interested me and it seems that not too many people are writing there at the moment, so hopefully I can bring some life into the place.
Once again, thank you everyone!
Taskmienster
06-02-10, 11:19 PM
I make :p Too many :p face :D
Elves are what you make them until we create a reason to believe otherwise.
Savas Tigh
06-03-10, 12:03 AM
I disagree with that characterization. What the hell would a "stock subversion" be? I think she subverts a lot of RPG character tropes, but she plays others straight, averts others, etc. I think the attempt to box it all in as "stock" this and "stock" that is really arrogant. I think it wasn't meant to be insulting, but I found it blithe and symptomatic of a sort of "seen it all before" mentality that gets really tiresome, especially if you spend any time on TVTropes which I suspect Caden does.Yes. Yes I do. :D
But I also read a lot besides that and Visla does strike me as a stock subversion. The reasons for this are quoted above, bolded for emphasis, and don't really need explaining. And as I said, there are plenty of atrocious things in my own characters. I prefer to revel in them, and play is more fun as a result. Whether or not other people find it entertaining is second place.
And Task :D I love you. :) So much. :p
Visla Eraclaire
06-03-10, 07:37 AM
I'd be interested to receive links or book titles to the legions of other Visla-like characters out there so I can read them, Caden. Do PM or IM them to me. I look forward to it.
And also: Ignore anyone telling you to be original. Cliches become cliche because they work. Knave's own character looks like the knock-off spawn of a couple generations worth of Nyarlathotep worshippers from the Lovecraft Mythos with a few generic Signs of Villainy scattered in to give a moral perspective.
Well, I am not gonna get defensive about my character. However, I do feel that that its wrong to say that anything could invalidate my opinion that when you don't know what to do, asking isn't always the best way to go.
As for the character, I toned him down and back. My first idea involved a seventeen year old using a combination of cross-dressing, marriage, alcohol, and poison followed by a legal battle over custody and estates to gain a great amount of lucre, which would have been his own superpower. The full story didn't sound kosher, so I scrapped it, and reused parts later. Just the same, I do feel its what you do with them. Do you have any comments on how I have been doing that?
Savas Tigh
06-03-10, 11:27 AM
I'd be interested to receive links or book titles to the legions of other Visla-like characters out there so I can read them, Caden. Do PM or IM them to me. I look forward to it....see, I could go through a long spiel about how personally you seem to be taking criticism, and how it's more a commentary on how many times I've seen that particular character type in RPGs on the 'net and elsewhere over the years...
But I'd rather see if your head explodes when I don't. :p
Lighten up, dude. Otherwise I'll start giving you something to really feel butthurt about. :)
Savas Tigh
06-03-10, 11:34 AM
Well, I am not gonna get defensive about my character. However, I do feel that that its wrong to say that anything could invalidate my opinion that when you don't know what to do, asking isn't always the best way to go.Kudos to you for having maturity about it. Nothing personal was intended and hopefully you can laugh it off. I mean, seriously. A guy whose character is a shellshocked, sexually dysfunctional knock-off of Doctor Who and Rincewind just made fun of you for one post. Why argue when you can simply sling the mud back with a laugh and a grin? :D
As for the character, I toned him down and back. My first idea involved a seventeen year old using a combination of cross-dressing, marriage, alcohol, and poison followed by a legal battle over custody and estates to gain a great amount of lucre, which would have been his own superpower. The full story didn't sound kosher, so I scrapped it, and reused parts later. Just the same, I do feel its what you do with them. Do you have any comments on how I have been doing that?...part of me wishes you'd left it all in just for the absurdity of all that. Seriously. Cross-dressing, marriage, alcohol, poison, custody battles, money-based power...that is inventive. At least for a near-medieval setting featuring elves and dragons.
That said! Your character's actually pretty cool. I was just boiling it down sufficiently to make a point.
Visla Eraclaire
06-03-10, 01:32 PM
...see, I could go through a long spiel about how personally you seem to be taking criticism, and how it's more a commentary on how many times I've seen that particular character type in RPGs on the 'net and elsewhere over the years...
But I'd rather see if your head explodes when I don't. :p
Lighten up, dude. Otherwise I'll start giving you something to really feel butthurt about. :)
Your passive aggression is really admirable. All while trying to act like you're above everything. You're a true artist, admirable as a troll, but not in danger of causing butthurt, at least not from me. I think you found the reaction you were looking to get, anger, rather than what I have given you, curiosity.
Trust me, Caden, you haven't hurt my feelings. I'm genuinely curious as to where you see all these characters, since I don't read things. I haven't read a work of fiction to completion since grade school and I virtually never read a thread on Althanas outside of my brief spurts of judging. If there are so many, any even, I'd like to see how they're doing things and whether there's anything adaptable, since I'm running into a wall with my own character.
I suspect the characters are only facially similar (female anti-hero spellcaster), because I don't think you know all that much about my character (especially with 90% of her backstory no longer on the site), but I'd be really happy to be mistaken. Even if you think the character is formulaic, the fact that you understand her at all would make you one of very few on the site, and a valuable resource.
Also: Elves. Very topical.
TheSongsOfSorrow
06-03-10, 01:57 PM
Haha, who would have thought that this thread would go from no posts and me having to edit in sarcasm for reply, to an off-topic (semi)-arguement about whose character is less or more cliche.
I guess that's the way the cookie crumbles though.
Anyways, whose up for a quest in Alerar once I get this bad-boy approved?
As for the character, I toned him down and back. My first idea involved a seventeen year old using a combination of cross-dressing, marriage, alcohol, and poison followed by a legal battle over custody and estates to gain a great amount of lucre, which would have been his own superpower. The full story didn't sound kosher, so I scrapped it, and reused parts later. Just the same, I do feel its what you do with them. Do you have any comments on how I have been doing that?
This sounds suspiciously like Ruby La Roux...:p
Silence Sei
06-03-10, 03:13 PM
Anyways, whose up for a quest in Alerar once I get this bad-boy approved?
Since Sei is one of the Unsung Heroes of Alerar, I'll throw my hate into that ring.
I could theoretically start a quest with Cydnar now that I'm well ahead with prior commitments, but it would depend on the nature of your character and how they would mesh. Cydnar on the other hand is the only character that can feasibly, liquid time or not, travel to Alerar; geomancy is cool like that ;)
This sounds suspiciously like Ruby La Roux...:p
Rouby the what now?
The red headed 30 something non-existing spell singer who is named after a FF9 character and has a half asian sister, is divorced, and can save the world wearing heels who isn't a massive Mary Sue? :p
The red headed 30 something non-existing spell singer who is named after a FF9 character and has a half asian sister, is divorced, and can save the world wearing heels who isn't a massive Mary Sue? :p
And that means..? :confused:
Silence Sei
06-03-10, 08:43 PM
I believe 'Mary Sue' is a kooky British way of saying drag-queen.
Savas Tigh
06-03-10, 09:12 PM
*Rolls up sleeves.* Oh boy. :)
Your passive aggression is really admirable. All while trying to act like you're above everything.Generally because I am. My original post regarding you was, and remains, nothing more than a passing comment that included a knock on Knave and a potential putdown of my own character, later followed by an actual putdown of him. Which I stand by. You singled it out for reply and are continuing to do so. This undermines your claims of not being offended.
I'm just kind of going along with it because I enjoy driving people insane. Which is why I take this...
You're a true artist, admirable as a troll,...as a sincere compliment. Thank you.
but not in danger of causing butthurt, at least not from me. I think you found the reaction you were looking to get, anger, rather than what I have given you, curiosity.Your insistence on defending your character from a throwaway criticism, including a demand for evidence, rather than just rolling with a joke is basically proof of butthurt. Hate to break it to ya, but as long as you're replying, I'm basically winning. :D
Trust me, Caden, you haven't hurt my feelings. I'm genuinely curious as to where you see all these characters, since I don't read things.Generally, in online RPGs. I used to work as a character approval staffer on a now defunct mecha website (Metal Machine Music) where plenty of characters snuck in special powers. Some of the females brought in special abilities, but many were either waifishly frail or practical everygirls -- both of which usually had confidence and abundant talent, which Visla's bio seems to suggest. Cael and Phoenix, both of whom are also MMM alumni who I basically dragged here kicking and screaming, can confirm that. Before that, it was Ye Olde AOL chats. Afterwards, it's been various minor RPG boards around the net, none of which I remain affiliated with or have links to.
For specific examples in actual fiction, go look around TVTropes.org. No, seriously. For all the humor and the vocabulary ruination it causes, it's a pretty quick and easy way of seeing whether or not someone's done something and how they've done it. In terms of actual published works, Visla struck me as a "stock subversion" based on the fact that most of her features spring up in various media. Take Raine Sage from Tales of Symphonia, then smack her around with some moe (or waif) stereotypes and orient her towards combat instead of healing. That's one example. There are others. I am not going to go through the hassle of trying to remember all of them by name or series.
I haven't read a work of fiction to completion since grade school and I virtually never read a thread on Althanas outside of my brief spurts of judging. If there are so many, any even, I'd like to see how they're doing things and whether there's anything adaptable, since I'm running into a wall with my own character.See above.
I suspect the characters are only facially similar (female anti-hero spellcaster), because I don't think you know all that much about my character (especially with 90% of her backstory no longer on the site), but I'd be really happy to be mistaken. Even if you think the character is formulaic, the fact that you understand her at all would make you one of very few on the site, and a valuable resource.I was going solely off a skim of the bio. And I did say she is a stock subversion, which could be construed as a backhanded compliment rather than a blatant insult. Much as she probably is valuable to you, she does not strike me as remotely unique or original, nor does your continued defense of her strike me as anything detached or objective.
In case all that was too long, it's simple: It's a joke, dude. Chill.
I'll refrain from further insult for now. :)
Also: Elves. Very topical.Screw topical. :p
That said: Technology. I've been mulling over Alerian technology for a while as part of a big fat arc I'm (eventually) going to work on. Anyone have any suggestions as to how their technology works, and how their magic differs from Raiaerans? Thinking it lacks any sort of musical component and resembles more of a mix of science and practiced ritual, with far less emphasis on creativity and improv works.
You know, I enjoy the ruffled feathers and butthurt of others as much as the next guy, probably more, but don't you think you guys are taking this a bit far? Tv Tropes is evidence that nearly everything has been done to death, and even then its just one opinion.
Also, I love the concept of Science Marching On! Given that Althanas is on the verge of a technological revolution, there is always the use of steam, and the invention of electricity. Truthfully, I always feel that technology is the response to a problem, or the capitalization on power sources. Can I suggest Alerar going nuclear? They have guns, its only a matter of time.
Or, you could go with the old idea that sufficiently advanced science is the same a magic, and that magic itself is a science. From there you have something along the lines of an order of scientists dedicated to sorcerous mathematics, resurrecting the dead with machines powered by the immortal soul, and a second go at war with the other Elfin Nation.
Visla Eraclaire
06-03-10, 11:03 PM
I was going solely off a skim of the bio. .
All I needed. The rest is tl;dr. But hey, if you're going to drag up a post from the page before and write a too-long reply, I feel I owe you as much.
You were being a prick to be a prick. And that's fine. I do it all the time. I was just giving you credit where credit was not due and thinking you had a genuine opinion, rather than a flippant remark based on virtually no knowledge. You happened to catch me during a period of mental fatigue where I didn't just post a "Haters Gonna Hate" picture. Bar review's a bitch.
I'm not detached and I'm not objective. I'm the fucking writer. If I didn't like the character, I would have stopped putting up with her a long time ago.
For the record, I played Tales of Symphonia and I think the character you cited is pretty far afield from Visla's personality. And I don't know where you get moe from. Aparently I need to revise my profile next level because casual readers get a very incorrect impression.
For any interested parties, a recipe for a Stock Subversion:
1 x Character (any)
10 x Tropes
5 x Trope Modifiers
1 x Forum Troll
Take character from any source. Remove character's identifying qualities (yolk), leaving only a few shallow aspects (white). Beat remaining character while adding random additional tropes. Add trope modifiers (subvert, invert) to taste. Bake in the flaming of one Forum Troll for 3 pages.
Serve and enjoy!
TheSongsOfSorrow
06-04-10, 01:40 AM
That said: Technology. I've been mulling over Alerian technology for a while as part of a big fat arc I'm (eventually) going to work on. Anyone have any suggestions as to how their technology works, and how their magic differs from Raiaerans? Thinking it lacks any sort of musical component and resembles more of a mix of science and practiced ritual, with far less emphasis on creativity and improv works.
I would like to see this topic explored more, good topic Caden, you sly dog :)
With that said....
Can we get back on a topic that brings worth to this thread? Because currently I think it should be flagged to close for all the off topic slander. Just saying ;)
Caden Law
06-04-10, 01:52 AM
You were being a prick to be a prick. And that's fine. I do it all the time.Actually, no. The difference between us is that when I'm a prick, I do it in small, measured amounts for comedy value. When you're a prick, as is the case right now, you go out of your way about it.
Bar review's a bitch.Sorry to hear, and a sincere good luck on that. No need to let e-drama get in the way of real life matters, which is why I'll let the rest of this off without sniping or nitpicking you further.
Pity too. I was all geared up for Trollfest 2010 and then bam. :(
That said: Nuclear power's a bit much. Maybe the use of uranium as a spellcasting reagent, I could almost buy that. But I think if Alerar, with its current level of technology, ran across a crapload of radioactive materials, they'd just interpret it as OH GODS POISONOUS MIASMA ROCKS WHAT THE DARK ELVEN JESUS and either A) Leave it alone, or B) Chuck unrefined lumps at their enemies. Primitive dirty bombs at the most.
I was more thinking of the contrast between the two nations. Raiaeran magic is anchored very heavily in music and that, in turn, boils down to liveliness and some measure of spontaneity -- at least at the core of it. Maybe Alerian magic is more like a mix of ritual and science: new spells are basically discovered, then codified, and rarely altered without heavy work to make sure its all useful. Which would lend itself well to enchanted bullets and guns, as well as helping to explain possible proliferation of the skyships.
Caden, Visla, you've had your fun, please continue this elsewhere unless you wish to return to the topic at hand (and who doesn't love elves, airships, breasts and Mary-Sues?*)
*Which is not a British word for drag-queen, Sei :p
Savas Tigh
06-04-10, 02:52 AM
Caden, Visla, you've had your fun, please continue this elsewhere unless you wish to return to the topic at hand (and who doesn't love elves, airships, breasts and Mary-Sues?*)
*Which is not a British word for drag-queen, Sei :pWe were already back on topic, you. :p CONTRIBUTE OR IT'S UP THE DUFFY TIME.
Visla Eraclaire
06-04-10, 07:17 AM
I like Caden's idea. Treating magic like science, with rigor and structure, and combining it with more traditional technology is one of my favorite things. Alerar has always had a lot of potential in my eyes, but I never bothered to mess with any of the 'canonical' continents much, except the generic City of Adventure Radasanth.
Concerning Alerar and its technology:
I've always viewed it as approaching Magiscience, Magic, blended with science. Magiscience is, and always will be more powerful than either pure magic, or pure science, for it is the offspring of both. To that end, I treat them in my plotting and scheming, as taking to technology as a means to enhance and study their magic.
As generations go by, they would of course discover, that it is possible to create a machine that runs on magic, their airships for example. Such a machine is neither scientific, nor magic. Xos as a character is an example of a user of Magiscience, despite being weak at the moment.
The point is, is that Alerar's magic is a different kind of magic, not necessarily weaker than Raiaera's, or anyone else's. Instead it is something new, with a far greater range and diversity of possibilities, than traditional magic.
It would, as Caden pointed out, force magic to be treated like a science, but ultimately, the greatest secret of magic would be discovered, that is, there is utterly no such thing as magic.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.