Matters of the Heart, I suppose this could be called.

[Aphira Ronameki]

Hello!
I know I haven't been here, in a REALLY long time, but when I was think of places where intelligent discussion was possible, this was my first thought.

I'm going all over the internet, to the largest forums that I know
of to start a discussion. My main goal is to get other opinions on the
subject, and this seems to be the fastest way.

At anyrate, to get to the point, this is my query:

We have all, hopefully, heard the story of Beauty and the Beast. My
question develops within a Manga with similar themes titled Her
Majesty's Dog. During this story the main characters take part in a play - coincidently, Beauty and the Beast - One of the characters makes the
following inquisition:

"Beauty falls in love with the Beast guy and his curse is broken. . . .
Don't you think it's strange? If Beauty loves him even though he's a
beast... Then why should he become Human?"

In the spirit of discussion and debate, I am asking for your opinions
and personal beliefs on this subject.

If you've Read the manga, then I'd also love to hear your view as to
why Hyoue said this.

If it helps, I run across a few questions when thinking about this, and if
you have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

So why did he regain his human form?
But what is it supposed to symbolize?
What point is the author trying to make?
What purpose does it serve?

Does the Beast turn back into a human to say that everyone deserves
a happy ending, no matter who you are or what your life has been like?
Or is it simply following the old cliche that "True love will conquer all"
breaking the 'curse' and letting them live happily ever after?
Or does it mean something more?
I apologize if I sound like an English professor. It's just that, I've been
pondering this for quite some time now and finding no one to quench
this thirst I have, I turned to the internet. I want to thank you for the
time you have taken from your day to read this, and if you feel like
replying then I love you even more.

Sincerely,
Aphira

P.S. Seeing this will inevitably lead to topics such as the vanity of humans, and the impostance/not importance of looks, I'd also love to hear your opinions on The Phantom of the Opera?

[4saykin]

Here is where I stand on the whole thing. I feel that the beauty and the beast does play a big part in the classic "Love will conquer all" bit. But I also believe that is has a alot to do with putting jugdemental thoughts in the back of your head and taking the time to getting to know some one. I feel that there is much to do with the constant scene of bigitry that we see on a day to day basis. I am 23, and to this day I will still watch those classic tales of love, bravery, and courage. I mean if you look at it form this point of view. "The best was always thought to be a horrible monster, that would kill you as soon as look at you. No one ever really took the time to try and figure him out. They all new the legends and the stories, but they never really believed them. Then suddenly,one day. A a beautiful young girl shows up at his door. and everything changes." Maybe the point the whole point of the story is to get ppl to take the time to get to know some one before judging them. Ratehr then assuming that some is......... a bad pereson, or a freak, or something like that. Get to know them and know what they are like.
Each person is like an Ice berg. and I know that I am taking this from a show on mtv. but it is true. Like I was saying. We are all like ice bergs. They seem huge on top. But beneath the water. They are much larger. You only see 10% of them On the surface. There is a whole 90% that we cant see. and that is how we all are. We only see 10% of the people we look at. What they wear. The music they listen too. How they look. what movines they watch. That is the basic image of that person. But what about that other 90%. what about what we cant. I mean there hearts, therefears, goals, visions, disires. What about all that. So in conclusion. I think that is the point that the other was trying to get across. Get to know some one. Weather they are beast, or huamn. Get to know them before you judge them.
As for the phantom of the opera. That will make for a very intreaging discusion

[orphans]

Depending on the culture, interpretations of the same thing are completely different.

The true meaning of what you're asking, or what the author meant, would only be discovered if you actually asked him/her.

On the other hand, a teacher of mine said long ago, "Once your work is out in public, your views and interpretations are no longer valid. It is the interpretations of the world that will give meaning to your work." Whether or not you believe that, is your own opinion and feelings, but I think it has a valid point. After all... we can exactly ask Homer the meaning of any of his stories.

Thus, to your questions, I can only give my own personal feelings.

In the context of the story, the curse is broken because the criteria is met: Have someone fall in love with you while in beast (MODE!) form.

What does this represent? To me, the same as above. However, I could also say that in the views of western culture, superficial beauty and beauty inside the individual is preferred. Just inner beauty by itself is not good enough. The beast, in my opinion, was supposed to represent the ugliness or unattractiveness (though I guess what your preference is...) while being a well formed prince with symmetrical features is the symbol of beauty.

What is the point the author is trying to make? Honestly, I have no idea and we'd have to ask the person. The only version I've seen is the Walt Disney version, which I understand is not exactly accurate. I'd have to see other version to answer this fully.

What purpose does this serve? I'm not sure if I'm interpreting your question correctly, but I think the purpose is to drive society towards one vision of perfection. Where girls are supposed to be subservient to the man, and stay by his side to change his nature from beast to man. The man on the other hand, is allowed to be a complete douche and if he has a good enough female companion, he's supposed to magically become better.

I think it's a load of bull.... but yeah.

I'm also short on time right now as I have to run, so I'm sorry if this isn't a complete answer. Feel free to PM/IM me.

[Aphira Ronameki]

On the other hand, a teach of mine said long ago, "Once your work is out in public, your views and interpretations are no longer valid. It is the interpretations of the world that will give meaning to your work." Whether or not you believe that, is your own opinion and feelings, but I think it has a valid point. After all... we can exactly ask Homer the meaning of any of his stories.
That's a very good point, I feel like all that we can do, when trying to figure out what an author means, short of asking them, is to unearth all of the possibilities, and while the author can't possibly mean alll of them (Or can they?) at least we then have a fuller picture on what goes beyond the storie's words.


In the context of the story, the curse is broken because the criteria is met: Have someone fall in love with you while in beast (MODE!) form.

What if the last petal had fallen before she said that she loved him? The criteria would not have been met, and he would not have been turned back into a human.
ow does that affect the ending of the story, and what we view as"happily ever after?"
Mind you, I'm going to assume that his wound was not fatal, and that perhaps he just thought he was dying, and passed out. Because the spell only said that it would change him into a human, not bring him back to life from a fatal stab wound. Becasue if you consideer the character of Gaston, with all of his skills, would not have drawn back to stab the beast again, resulting in his death, if his knife in the side was going to kill the beast.


Maybe the point the whole point of the story is to get ppl to take the time to get to know some one before judging them. Ratehr then assuming that some is......... a bad pereson, or a freak, or something like that. Get to know them and know what they are like.

Remember the end, they're on the roof/balcony of the castle, and he's dying. There's one petal left, abot to fall. Belle says "No... Please don't go, don't leave me. I love you." Or something along those lines, just as the petal falls. And miraculously, the curse is broken. Beast turns back into a human. But that isn't yet the end. Belle is confused. Her dear friend was ying, and suddenly, with a trememndous display of swirling lights and sparkling dusts, there is a beautiful man standing before her. (Because seriously, he's too bishonen to call him handsome. O.O) And he looks at her, smiling like he's meeting a lifelong friend. And Belle just stares, because she has no idea who he is. "Belle, don't you know who I am? Don't you recognize me? It's me, belle, It's me!" And she looks at him, but can't believe it. And then she gazes into his eyes. And it's then that she sees it. Then they live happily ever after.

Belle fell in love with him, with the person she knew he was. So whether he was beast or human, it didn't matter to her. She would never stop loving the person, regardless of the package.

If true love really does conquer all, then why did the Beast have to turn into a human for the two to live happily ever after? Is there no way for them to live happily if he was still a beast?
So then we look at the theme of inner beuty, and it the story no longer makes sense. Why, if she loved him for who he was, and not for what he was, did he turn back into a human?
Logically, he shouldn't have had to. You would think that the perfect happy ending would be that her love confession was too late to break the curse, and that they lived happily ever after, woman, and beast. Wouldn't you?

But here's another question. And I believe that this is the root of the matter. Why was it ever a curse to begin with? Curse is a very negatively connotated word for spell, or magic, or whatever yo want to call it. Which would mean that the Prince being turned into a Beast was a bad thing. But why is it a curse? The Fairy, the old woman he turned away, Cast a spell on him so that he would learn to see beyond mere appearances, and understand the beauty within a person's soul. She cast the spell so that he would grow, and become a better person.
And he did. So then why do we call it a curse? If the fairy's magic did so mch good, why was it a curse that need to be broken?
And, furthermore, why do we have to call him a Beast? Simply becuse he is not human?

[MetalDrago]

If you take into account the version done by Walt Disney Motion Pictures, the spell, curse, or whatever you want to call it was not only cast upon the Beast himself, but also on his entire castle, servants, statues, and decor included. Though whether or not the Beast himself turned back into a human is of little or no consequence, the return of the castle and all who lived in it to their human forms should not be forgotten, at least not as far as the Disney Version goes.

They were cursed to live as what would otherwise be inanimate objects, and probably not only thought of it as a sorry existence, but also as a true curse. Though they lived their best with it, they still did not like living in this form. Appearances do not matter, on the whole, but in the case of escaping from something like that, I can imagine it as being a blessing.

On the other hand, purely in the Beast's case, if he were to be the only one affected by this spell, his appearance would not matter. Belle loved him for who he was underneath his bestial appearance. However, I have another, somewhat different opinion on what his transformation back into a human symbolizes.

When the beast becomes this... beautiful, or uh... Ok, in all honesty he looked like a really muscular chick, but I kinda know what Disney was going for... Anyway, when he became human again, I think his "beautiful" appearance was meant to be a more visual approach to describing the inner beauty he had attained at that point. In other words, I believe that his transformation back to human was to just show the slow kids in the class that underneath even the most hideous of appearances there can be the most beautiful people you'll know in your life.

On the other hand, some people are just as ugly on the inside as on the outside, some of the most beautiful people in the world can be the biggest assholes, and still some of the most beautiful people in the world can have the most beautiful souls. But that's for another topic.

[Revenant]

The Disney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty_and_the_Beast_(1991_film)) version is very, very different from the Fairy Tale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty_and_the_Beast)version.

In a quick summary of the fairy tale version the Beast dotes on Belle from the moment that she arrives as a prisoner of his castle and asks for her hand in marriage each night. Belle is a kind-hearted, innocent young woman who refuses his proposal because she only loves him ‘as a friend.’ It is only after Belle is given leave to go home, breaks her promise to return on time, and looks into the magic mirror the Beast gave her and sees him dying of a broken heart because of her failure to return that she realizes she loves him and he is turned back into a prince.

To me this says a lot more about self-delusion than seeing inner beauty.

The Disney version, on the other hand, is an abhorrent story about domestic violence and abusive relationships. It teaches young women that, despite his volatile temper, his violent tendencies, his controlling and his dominating actions, those few times when he’s sweet are the real him and he will change if only I stay with him and love him enough. Disgusting.

But maybe I'm just cynical.

[Silence Sei]

Well then, Rev, what are your thoughts involving Toy Story? XD

This is what B&tB boils down to:

They love each other. They get married.

Now, the logical next step to that is popping out a litter of kids. The author of the story had the foresight think about this and make the beast a prince once more after Belle fell in love with him.

Because really, would you tap this? (http://herokids.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/the-beast.jpg)

[MetalDrago]

I'd tap that, all night long, and then in the morning, I'd wake up, look over, and wonder what the hell I was smoking to think that was attractive.

[Revenant]

Because really, would you tap this? (http://herokids.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/the-beast.jpg)

I ....

I ...

*hangs head in shame*

I have a drinking problem.

[Aphira Ronameki]

O.O'

Oh my...


The Disney version, on the other hand, is an abhorrent story about domestic violence and abusive relationships. It teaches young women that, despite his volatile temper, his violent tendencies, his controlling and his dominating actions, those few times when he’s sweet are the real him and he will change if only I stay with him and love him enough. Disgusting.

While I admit that it's true that people can change, it's also very highly unlikely for a violent, ill-tempered person to become so docile. I can see your point, about instilling false hopes within young girls...
For me thoug, at the age that I was swhen I first watched the movie, I think that I was more absorbed with all of the magic and the happ ending to really get much out of his bad temper. Then again, my father was always rather ferocious, so maybe I was just used to it?
Honestly, I don't understand why some women do seem to look for men with such negative characters. Or why they go into relationships to "change them for the better." I don't see why, instead of always trying to make other men be "Mr. right" why not just go out and find him already there.

A lot of people make that point though, because they couldn't have kids if he stayed a beast. Which makes sense, but wouldn't they have lived just as happily without kids?
Not that I have anything against children, I love kids, and do want my own family someday. But at the same time I know that if something were to make that impossible, then I would still be happy with just his company.

No one's ever mentioned the rest of the castle before though, and I'll admit (though now I feel stupid for not thinking about it) I didn't even consider it.
I've looked at a couple different versions of this tale, but nothing I read mentioned anything about the rest of the castle. So now I'm wondering if in the other versions they were 'cursed' as well.

[4saykin]

So all in all, from what I can see. each person has there views. and there opinions. But, They all have the same outcome. The same conclusion pretty much.
I mean, I agree with every one. It seems to me that while inner beauty may not be what it is about. At the same time, inner beauty is exactly the point, or perhaps personallity. or may be even friendship.
What about lucidness. did any one think about that one. Maybe part of it is to get people to be lucid about what they cant see. But then again solace could play a big part in the story. Think about it, Solace means comfort, and love is naturally comforting. So maybe it is solace. I guess the point here is that we should factor in Love,true love, lucidness, solace, the curse, the beauty, the beast. We have to really look at the from every angle. I am actually all about breaking down each chapter and putting some kind of thorey or theasus to each one. Just maybe, that is how we will learn the meaning of of it all.
And the whole toy story thing throws me off a bit. How can we factor toy story into this. In the thread Aphira mentioned The phantom of the opera. I know for a fact, with out the shadow of a dought that can be factored into the conversation

[Jack Frost]

And the whole toy story thing throws me off a bit. How can we factor toy story into this. In the thread Aphira mentioned The phantom of the opera. I know for a fact, with out the shadow of a dought that can be factored into the conversation
He was poking fun at the rather harsh interpretation of beauty and the beast
given here

The Disney version, on the other hand, is an abhorrent story about domestic violence and abusive relationships. It teaches young women that, despite his volatile temper, his violent tendencies, his controlling and his dominating actions, those few times when he’s sweet are the real him and he will change if only I stay with him and love him enough