What do you know about Althanas 2.0?

[Max Dirks]

On January 2nd, 2011, Althanas turns 10 years old! In the play-by-post world, that's nearly an eternity. The mere fact that the forum has survived this long is a true testament to the dedication of its staff and the loyalty of its players. I can't begin to thank you all enough for everything you've done.

That said, 10 years is an awfully long time in the play-by-post world, especially for a site that hasn't seen much major fundamental change since its inception. Think about it. Some of the systems created at the very beginning of Althanas, like the judging system and the bazaar, have endured for all 10 years (though popularity of those systems has been through peaks and valleys). In contrast, other systems have been modified so many times they have become almost a convoluted "old guard." No amount of modification can "fix" these systems, but we've refused to get rid of them because they've always been there.

Enter Althanas 2.0, the Althanas reboot. We've got 10 years of experience behind our belt. We know what's worked and what hasn't. Althanas 2.0 is the long awaited excuse to start fresh by eliminating those "broken" systems and developing new ones. There are two long term goals for the reboot. The first is to bring in a younger crowd. Whether you favor Althanas as a creative writing workshop or a game, there's no way to lose with an influx of new faces. Veteran writers get to encourage young writers. Veteran gamers get a whole host of new gamers to smack around. The second goal is to simplify the site. Some things are so detailed on Althanas that veteran players can't figure them out. If they do figure it out, they are afraid to make any permanent changes to the site. Seriously, when was the last time (outside of an FQ) that a run of the mill character played by a non-moderator made its way into canon? I can count the number on my hands. So those are the goals: (1) to bring in new, younger members and (2) to simplify the site.

Let me add that Althanas is not dying. These changes aren't to "save the site" or any of that nonsense. Unique hits to the site are up from three years ago. It's just that FST and OOC chatter has decreased tenfold in that time frame and that's why post count might seem lower than usual.

Anyway, that's enough bantering. Let me get to my point. Everything will change by January 1, 2010. EVERYTHING. But it starts right here with you. The moderators have good ideas floating around. Some changes have already been decided, but the vast majority haven't. So this is your forum. This is your opportunity to tell us what works and what doesn't. This is your opportunity to pitch new ideas or revive old ones. Anything goes. I will say this though: if you criticize an existing system, provide a solution or an alternative to it. Don't like the bazaar? Think it should go? Then through down a detailed plan for an alternative way to get your items. Be constructive and be optimistic.

For the record, the moderators have been instructed to stay out of this thread. This is for the players to brainstorm. Have at it.

[Zook Murnig]

Off the top of my head, one thing stands out that's been keeping a really great region from being used to the fullest extent. Fallien's built-in defense against writing, the Exit Pass. Honestly, I know it's as simple as saying that your character went to a lot of trouble to get the Exit Pass, but that little bit of deterrent is enough to turn aside most potential use that the region could receive.

The xenophobia of Fallien is a good thing. The Exit Pass needs to go, however. The Outlander's Quarter needn't be a enforced in-universe as the place where non-natives live. It could, rather, be a ghetto where such people gather simply to protect themselves from the religious and cultural persecution of the general populace (much like the black, latino, jewish, islamic, gay, etc. communities in most major cities).

I may come up with more stuff at a later date.

[Atzar]

I'm not sure what you guys have done so far where the judging rubric is concerned. With that said, I'd like to see some of the categories tinkered with a little bit if you haven't done it already.

Particularly, I don't like Continuity as it is written. If a character's past has no influence on the story at hand, then the writer shouldn't need to force it into the thread. I'd change the name to "Storyline" or "Plot" or something like that, and have it just be a breakdown of the quality of the plot itself as seen by the judge - favoring originality, creativity, etc. So basically what Continuity is right now but without the unneeded emphasis on background. Include history as a criterion where the story demands it, but don't emphasize it as the main point of the category.

As far as Technique goes, do away with it entirely. Let's be honest here: none of us are editors. None of us have the practiced eye that this category requires. None of us have the time to read a thread three or four times specifically for this stuff like an editor would. So let's not pretend. As far as replacements, I'd throw in 'Style' as a suggestion - a catch-all category that takes into a account a writer's flair, command of the English language, and "it" - that flavor a writer has that makes his work fun to read, even if you might not be able to put your finger on the technical reason for your enjoyment.

Take out Clarity. Half of it is Mechanics, the other half is the rest of the rubric. It ends up being redundant. As far as how to replace these points on the rubric, I'd support throwing them into Wild Card, and making that worth 20 out of the 100. It would reflect that the most important thing about writing is the enjoyment of the writer and reader, and in general I trust the judges to be unbiased as usual with this extra power.

Or for a more radical solution, let the writer determine that extra 10 points himself. It would represent how much fun the writer had in creating and completing the thread. It would require taking players at their word on this - some might be inclined to boost their own score, but I hope that we as mature players can resist this temptation. Still, I think it would reflect the most important aspect of writing, and that's whether or not the writer had fun writing it. It may or may not work. I'll let you guys decide that.

I think that's about all I have to say about the rubric. I'll come up with more as I think about it.

[Zook Murnig]

Honestly, as far as Technique goes, I don't just use that for literary techniques and devices. When I was judging, I tended to use that for particularly good turns of phrase, interesting uses of wording, and, above all else, well done humor. There is technique to all of that.

For Clarity, I have to argue with you on that. Even with perfect Mechanics and great Technique, the events of a thread can be confusing as hell. Wasn't that guy standing on the other side of the table? I thought she was in Radasanth? When did this happen? Which person were you referring to with that line?

On a completely different line of thought: Perhaps an incentive for veterans to write with, and provide advice for, newbies? I was thinking that, either just in the newbie section or on the whole site, we could provide a bonus to gold when, using OOC tags, a writer offers friendly and helpful advice to their partner. Not a huge bonus, but maybe counting the thread as if it had an extra writer for the purposes of calculating gold?

[SirArtemis]

One thing I really like is the Auction House system. I enjoy seeing a new item every week and seeing whether or not it'd be something I wanted to bid for. This also sometimes can spark a really good idea for a quest where the writer earns a similar item that way.

Tweaks to the system that I would recommend is creating a subforum for the Auction House by itself. Every week, whoever is in charge can post the name of the item as a new thread along with a format for the time frame.

E.G.
The Wishing Wand (10/9-10/16)

This would allow you to break up the single, long thread that exists now, and clean it up more. Then, at the end of every week, you can lock the auction and leave it in the forum so that people can easily browse past items for ideas.

There is also something I've seen on another forum, but I'm not sure how it would go coding wise. Basically, I would like a "Auction House Idea Submissions" thread. However, all posts that are made by users are hidden, except to moderators. This would make it so that moderators have a compilation of ideas all in one place. You could also do a reward system, such that if an idea is used that a user submitted, they get a small reward, maybe a bit of exp and/or gold for their contribution. Personally, I'd find it exciting to watch as an item I suggested turned out to be a high-demand item and sparked a good thread.

______________________________________________

Another thing that I was thinking about is the Bazaar. From what I know (which isn't much to be honest), if you have the money, you can buy almost anything from the Bazaar. I mean... except something like adamantite?

Anyways, what I think would be fun is to change the system slightly. Allow for the current system when people want to buy simple items. For example, you want to buy some normally smithed items, or some general goods, or what have you. Sure, quick exchange of money like in the real world.

But what I think would be REALLY fun is if you had some Bazaar mods who were basically co-writers in shopping threads. Imagine this for example. Say you have 3 Bazaar mods and someone wants to get some enchanted magical maces. From a story I've read, I'll use the example that you have one mace that applies an oil to a target upon impact, and the second mace, when striking a spot that the first mace struck, causes an explosion.

You could then have one of the Bazaar mods enter and do a bit of an intro as an NPC. You could introduce it maybe as a local legend, or that you need to gather the materials for it, and then proceed to write a quest out with the Bazaar mod and the writer who wants that new item in order to work and earn that new item. I know that you can just as easily write out a solo thread for something like that and hope that your score is high enough to earn you that high quality item, so the purpose of this is to give you more leeway. Say I wanted an adamantite shortsword that had xyz enchant and it was very powerful. I would need quite the score to earn such a wonderful weapon. So what writing in the Bazaar would do is to allow a writer, while writing with a Bazaar mod, to create a story that comes with a bit of a "catch." That catch being that because you produced this thread in the Bazaar, you can NOW use money from your inventory that you have earned in previous thread to compensate for the score that you may not have achieved.

Honesty, I'm sure that to a certain extent, mods already do that when judging a thread and the spoils are a bit much, and they just take out of their coffers to compensate for the difference. I'm not sure if this actually happens. I know mods take out from the rewards to give spoils, sometimes awarding no gold. However, another BIG benefit of doing this system rather than writing it as a solo is that hopefully, these Bazaar mods are talented writers and can HELP the other writer strengthen their own writing in order to achieve that higher score they want.

Just a spur of the moment idea.

[Christoph]

I agree with Atzar on substance (to a point), but I don't think that category names necessarily need to be changed in order to shift their focus and how they're gauged.

As for the Bazaar, I think a great way to simplify the site is to remove it entirely. It's an amusing gimmick sometimes, but nothing more. I would just get rid of it and make a character's gear and wealth another character trait, just like skills or physical attributes.

And that's all I have for now. Sorry, no huge post from me. =p

[Atzar]

Honestly, as far as Technique goes, I don't just use that for literary techniques and devices. When I was judging, I tended to use that for particularly good turns of phrase, interesting uses of wording, and, above all else, well done humor. There is technique to all of that.

Seems like you're one of the only ones. Maybe I'm not giving the judges enough credit on this one. If it's common practice to judge it like this (which is basically exactly what I want and was trying to convey), then leave it alone.


For Clarity, I have to argue with you on that. Even with perfect Mechanics and great Technique, the events of a thread can be confusing as hell. Wasn't that guy standing on the other side of the table? I thought she was in Radasanth? When did this happen? Which person were you referring to with that line?

To me, that's can all be covered in Mechanics or Setting. When I judged, if I didn't know where you were, you were getting docked in Setting. If I don't know who a line is referring to or who is saying a particular line of dialogue, that's Mechanics. Clarity basically just gave me a mechanism to fuck you over twice for the same mistake. It was typically the hardest category for me to evaluate because of that, mostly because it was always tough for me to decide whether I felt you'd already been punished enough for the mistakes you made.

I understand that categories are going to be linked to an extent, but I don't think they should be redundant. Clarity, to me, is redundant.


On a completely different line of thought: Perhaps an incentive for veterans to write with, and provide advice for, newbies? I was thinking that, either just in the newbie section or on the whole site, we could provide a bonus to gold when, using OOC tags, a writer offers friendly and helpful advice to their partner. Not a huge bonus, but maybe counting the thread as if it had an extra writer for the purposes of calculating gold?

I don't know about this. If the new player asks for help, then by all means, go for it. I'd rather the vet not get carried away with the advice simply for the extra cheese, though - or try to ram it down their throats whether they want it or not.

"Take it. Take it! TAKE IT! YOU KNOW YOU WANT IT, SO TAKE IT!!!"

Putting myself in their shoes (or at least trying to), I'd understand the goodwill behind the mechanism but ultimately wouldn't use it. I think excessive tips would become irritating and overwhelming, helpful or not. I also find that some of the advice given by people is subjective, biased, and occasionally even wrong.

Since I'm sitting here arguing with myself more than I'm arguing with you, I'm going to go ahead and abstain on the grounds that I don't even know what the fuck I think.

[Fatina]

As for the Bazaar, I think a great way to simplify the site is to remove it entirely. It's an amusing gimmick sometimes, but nothing more. I would just get rid of it and make a character's gear and wealth another character trait, just like skills or physical attributes.


I really like the Bazaar though, even if it does take literally years for a thread to get completed there. But that's mostly under-staffing. I would actually rather have it built upon rather than eliminated. I sort of like Artemis' idea.

[Lord Anglekos]

Don't. Take away. The Bazaar.
To me, it's been one of the most constantly interesting places to visit; no matter who goes there, no matter what someone buys, the Bazaar is a threshold for story lines just waiting to be born. No matter what anyone says, that place is something magical; that little "umph" that separates Althanas from other would-be post-by-play RPG's out there. Sure, you can quest for better items than you can usually find in the Bazaar, but who cares? Going to a shop, and looking for better equipment is an essential part of role playing games.
Perhaps, one of the reasons I love the Bazaar so much is that I think of it as an actual dimension; a world, separate from the world. Has anyone read "Myth Adventures" by Robert Lynn Asprin? Well, for those who haven't, they too had a 'Bazaar'; except for them, the Bazaar was an actual world. A dimension amongst dimensions, it was a place where creatures from all across the universe could come and bargain for, well, anything really. Spanning at least the size of a country, one could wander the Bazaar their entire life and STILL not see everything it has to show. My point being, the Bazaar made an ordinary, comedic book series extraordinary. A hidden gem.
So I agree with Fantina above me. Put more people on the Bazaar, even if they are unexperienced; the only way they're going to gain experience is through practice. Expand it; give more focus on using that gold we get rather than saving it up so that people have thousands, and nothing to spend it on. Or, perhaps, expand the repertoire; who says they don't have dragons for sale at the Bazaar? Eh? Eh?
Anyways, that's just my two cents.
For now.

EDIT: Oh, one more thing.
As far as the judging rubric goes, I have to agree with Zook and say I feel the judging rubric is perfectly fine for now. I feel that the 'Wild Card' is what you describe, Atzar, when it comes to writers judging themselves; perhaps we could put more emphasis on that? Well, in any case, I don't see it needing any changes. While this is a MMORPG, it is as much, if not moreso, a writing forum as well, and I personally don't want that to change in my elitist attitude.

But, then again, that's just my opinion. So who knows.

[Rayse Valentino]

I'm not sure what you guys have done so far where the judging rubric is concerned. With that said, I'd like to see some of the categories tinkered with a little bit if you haven't done it already.

Particularly, I don't like Continuity as it is written. If a character's past has no influence on the story at hand, then the writer shouldn't need to force it into the thread. I'd change the name to "Storyline" or "Plot" or something like that, and have it just be a breakdown of the quality of the plot itself as seen by the judge - favoring originality, creativity, etc. So basically what Continuity is right now but without the unneeded emphasis on background. Include history as a criterion where the story demands it, but don't emphasize it as the main point of the category.

As far as Technique goes, do away with it entirely. Let's be honest here: none of us are editors. None of us have the practiced eye that this category requires. None of us have the time to read a thread three or four times specifically for this stuff like an editor would. So let's not pretend. As far as replacements, I'd throw in 'Style' as a suggestion - a catch-all category that takes into a account a writer's flair, command of the English language, and "it" - that flavor a writer has that makes his work fun to read, even if you might not be able to put your finger on the technical reason for your enjoyment.

Take out Clarity. Half of it is Mechanics, the other half is the rest of the rubric. It ends up being redundant. As far as how to replace these points on the rubric, I'd support throwing them into Wild Card, and making that worth 20 out of the 100. It would reflect that the most important thing about writing is the enjoyment of the writer and reader, and in general I trust the judges to be unbiased as usual with this extra power..

I agree with all of this. The current rubric has certain literary standards that are ill-conceived and out-of-place. Put a real piece of work through the rubric and you'll end up with low scores.

Changing continuity to plot would be fantastic, for example. We have character sheets for a reason. If there's a pertinent reason to reference a past event or give adequate reasoning for a character's actions, then it would likely be in the thread, or at least a link to the previous iteration of the thread in the opening post. There is no chapter in a story that starts off with a summary of the last chapter.

I'd like to add not changing, but reconsidering Setting- Too often I see the words "I would've liked to see you make more use of the setting." This is just pure personal opinion and is not justification for a score value. To describe the setting to the extent that it requires in a particular instance should be enough. If the setting is a mere background to the story, simply to alleviate the image of a void, I don't understand forcing the author to 'creatively' use it every time. Read any book and you'll see- The setting is a backdrop, it's personality, it's part of the plot. Expecting everyone to be MacGuyver is a bit much.

[Fatina]

The issue of the rubric and low scores reminded me of something, that although I fear it has been discussed before, I don't expect it to sit well with some people. Thankfully I'm just wondering what other people think.

I'd like to see people leveling faster. I think one of the ways to actually keep people interested is by actually giving them the feeling that they are making progress. There is something kind of unhearthening about making the best out of you abilities on a quest to receive a low score, that perhaps -and this might just be me lacking understanding of the rubric, scoring, and reward systems- won't give you enough experience for half a level. I am saying this out of personal experience, though not out of spite. For someone who has been on Althanas for several years I'd have to say that there is nothing more rewarding that seeing "CHARACTER LEVELS UP!" like I'm seeing the caption pop out of thin air in golden letter lighting up my character with a spotlight like in some videogame or something.

First I thought reducing the experience leveling requirements could be an option, however that would catapult most of the Althanas population into leveling up, not to mention those powerhouses that have already reached a very high level in comparion would more than a few levels. Something like this would also mean that there would be more work to do routinely on the approval forums and for more than a while understaffing has been an issue Althana's been having to deal with. There is also the question of how to resolve the amount of upgrades given: Just an an observer I'd have to say that once characters in Althanas reach the tremendous milestone of level 7 the progress line becomes blurres and from then on the next levels are pretty much exponential upgrades that one-shots the world. Two strong high level characters might actually have to go back and check on their abilities when they fight someone around their same level; evethough there might be a difference of two levels, in abilities both could actually be too evenly-matched. However if a level one where to fight a level three, the difference in power is be markedly substantial.

If the rate at which a character level is reduced, the amount of "power ups" given doesn't really have to stay the same. It could be lowered.

Ideed if you were to think about it it would just seem redundant. Lowering the experience requirements, and lowering the amount of upgrades given per level ups for the same experience rate earned per quest would be pretty mcuh the same, it would seem, just more work for the moderators that have to approve the upgrades. Aside from the sense of progress it would give, though, it would aslo reduce the difference in skill in between players. Currently the only way a level 1 character(A) could beat a character, lets say, level three(B) ICly, is per sensible writing from character B in trying to make the thread perhaps more interesting by allowing CharA to get away with some things.

Now. For example's sake lest say that experience reqs, and level upgrades where halfed. In this example a character level 2 would actually have better chances against a character level 6.

Currently you need lets say 100 exp to reach level one. A character that is level 3 has (and I know it doesn't scale like this it is actually more complicated) 310 experience. You on the other hand have been questing and so far you have 185 experience, not enough to reach level two, but certainly more than level one. That doesn't make a difference however. Because the next upgrade wont come until you have 200 exp. you are using the same abilities you earned at level 1, against a level 3.

If you where to halve it: You have 185 exp - you need 50 exp to level up, you would then be level 3, against someone with 300 experience, a level 6. Character B would only be then twice as strong as opposed to three times.

...

Yeah, I know. Its a very long, hard to understand, mispelled, typoed, rant, but I hope I alteast let people understand what I meant enough for someone to tell me where I am mistaken, or where I have a point. Like I said before I don't claim to know everything/anything about the scoring methods, or the leveling system so feel free to disregard this if you'd like. I understand that a reform like that would probably cause a lot of things to be double-checked again. Perhaps a better solution would be to increase experience gain per thread, not entierly dependent on the score.

Anyway. Yeah.

[SirArtemis]

@Fatina

I'm not sure I agree with you entirely on the leveling thing.. I mean... I think the main issue is that leveling on Althanas is uniform, whereas in many games leveling is exponential. What I mean by this is that, at least from what it seems like, the first 4 or 5 levels really need only a half dozen solid threads. From level 0 to 1, if you write two solid threads, you can get that level pretty quickly. If at level 3 to 4, you write 5 or 6 solid threads, you can get that level pretty quickly. It also goes quickly if you do multiple threads at once, maybe some duels, or workshop feedback.

What could be done is to make the exponential slant more inclined and causing the lower levels to be easier to get even with poor writing, and stretching the demand higher so that if you improve as you write, higher levels will be easier to get, and if your writing doesn't improve, it will take quite some time.

As for the IC'ly defeating of a higher level character....

/sigh

Okay, this is meant to replicate real life. If a person is in real life a "level 1" fighting a "level 3" they would get their ass kicked. That's just how life is. If someone is stronger, faster, more skilled, they will own you unless you get lucky or have a brilliant idea. On top of that, compound the fact that you can't defeat someone IC'ly with skill alone. Plenty of people have an e-peen that stretches across North America and refuse to be killed, even IC'ly, and since they have to approve of their death, it just won't happen. Co-writing is a discussion and should be treated as such. If killing someone higher level makes sense, even to the plot, the higher level might allow it. If it's in The Citadel, so be it.

I really don't have much to add. Personally, my first solo thread scored in the 50's and I made it to level 3 rather quickly. If I were in a writing mood, I could have made 4 or 5 by now. There are also people like Jensen who level tremendously fast. It's about the effort you put in. Write plenty and write well and you'll be rewarded.

[SandStorm]

Honestly after reading this thread, I am disgusted. Instead of anyone besides those above me (which I'd like to thank everyone who did put their input in the hat) adding anything solid, they just shrugged this thread off. Now everyone is acting like this 2.0 stuff is just popping out of a nightmare.

You know what people suggested for 2.0? Rubric changes, bazaar changes, and leveling...
Anything else? No, not really...

Hardly any of you who are wrapping up tight in your security blankets even bothered to add "I like althanas the way it is."
How about: "Don't change althanas, it's a big part of my life, has been for years!"
Nothing...

Why don't you guys out there who love althanas the way it is, voice it, in the thread that was created for that purpose, instead of bitching in everyone else's threads, crying to mods, and slandering the Mod-Team.

I've concluded that a lot of althanian's like to bite the hand that feeds (the mods and admin) rather than helping them. A lot of you are acting very childish in the way you're approaching this whole process.

Personally I would like to suggest the following, if it's not too late (because heaven knows this thread has been up for two months and gotten 12 replies, whereas a thread asking "what exactly 2.0 is" got over double the replies in less than twenty four hours... How are the mod's suppose to know exactly what something [the changes, in this case] is, if none of you threw your suggestions out?):

-Condensation (Of threads & unused accounts)
-A cap on the amount of accounts someone can have
-Heavier mod watch on the OOC forums, because god knows most of you can't stay on topic for shit.
-Two rubrics; which is a great idea to bring in a different crowd. Hopefully a less-bickery bunch who can actually handle OOC forums with maturity.
-A warning system in place, in which 5 strikes would result in being banned from Althanas.
-More (active) mods (Not that the current mods aren't active, but bring in more and weed out the ones who aren't if there are any)
-Everyone who completes a thread has a chance to effect canon, but there has to be some kind of restriction on this... Can't just have _________ burning down Radasanth without repercussions.
-Bounty board, for those of you villains out there who actually do go burning down Radasanth.

I've got many more, but I'll let you guys throw your cents in.

[SandStorm]

Also, one more thing I'd love to see:

-A stable IC timeframe (What year is it in Althanas? Month? Season? Time? Seems like the only character around here who actually knows this is Caden Law, and that's because he's a wizard ;))
But really, I think if somebody writes a quest in their character's past, their skills should reflect the level of their charactere in the timeframe they're writing in. If not they should be docked points. If someone expects to effect canon, then it should only be aloud in threads that happen during the current timeframe, and not past.

[Dissinger]

Also, one more thing I'd love to see:

-A stable IC timeframe (What year is it in Althanas? Month? Season? Time? Seems like the only character around here who actually knows this is Caden Law, and that's because he's a wizard ;))
But really, I think if somebody writes a quest in their character's past, they should be barred to the skills reflected in the timeframe they're writing in. If not they should be docked points. If someone expects to effect canon, then it should only be in present-tense posts, not past.

Except most people write in past tense. It is the most natural way. I think you mean if people write about the past they shouldn't be able to do more than expand upon their own history, not Althanas'.

[SandStorm]

I think you mean if people write about the past they shouldn't be able to do more than expand upon their own history, not Althanas'.
Yeah, you got what I meant...

[Dissinger]

Trust when i say I have a habit of obsessing over tenses...and their changing irrationally...

[Aiko]

Also, one more thing I'd love to see:

-A stable IC timeframe (What year is it in Althanas? Month? Season? Time? Seems like the only character around here who actually knows this is Caden Law, and that's because he's a wizard ;))
But really, I think if somebody writes a quest in their character's past, their skills should reflect the level of their charactere in the timeframe they're writing in. If not they should be docked points. If someone expects to effect canon, then it should only in threads that effect present canon, and not past.

There's only one question I have with that.

What if I decide to skip ahead a year? For example, what if for some reason, I put one of my characters into a year long coma? What if their just at home, with nothing interesting happening?

What then? Should I always make it one year ahead of what's happening? Would I have to wait OOCly for everyone else to catch up to me? Would I instead merely wait a fixed amount of time OOCly, such as a single quarter?

What if I fall into an IC time warp and go back to the past? What if I go to the future?

[SirArtemis]

There's only one question I have with that.

What if I decide to skip ahead a year? For example, what if for some reason, I put one of my characters into a year long coma? What if their just at home, with nothing interesting happening?

What then? Should I always make it one year ahead of what's happening? Would I have to wait OOCly for everyone else to catch up to me? Would I instead merely wait a fixed amount of time OOCly, such as a single quarter?

What if I fall into an IC time warp and go back to the past? What if I go to the future?

I actually found this very interesting to think about actually... If you think about it, if a character writes that their character has aged 5 years, but writers with other writers frequently, their character's age is going to fluctuate very much from the others they are writing with. Let's use an example...

George writes a duel in The Citadel with Jennifer, and both are 20 years old.
Jennifer then duels Unicorn-man, who is 50 years old.
Then George goes into a coma, wakes up, and is now 25 years old.
George then duels Unicorn-man, who is 50 years old, but George is now 25, and Jennifer is still 20.

Time-warp

Shit that's a complicated and hard to follow example but I think it reiterates how confusing time can be when everyone is working with their own clock!

[Letho]

Yeah, but I don't think there's an actual solution to this problem without forfeiting liquid time and enforcing a strict time flow in which everyone ages at the same rate. The best George, Jennifer and the Unicorn-man can do is either make it so the thread occurs at the point in time when they were still on the same clock (disregarding the fact that they now miraculously have new abilities which they acquired ten or twenty years from now) or disregard the discrepancy in age altogether and sidestep referring to it in the actual thread.

[SandStorm]

There's only one question I have with that.
I actually counted 9 questions, not one...

Wow, everything you just wrote was in question form for that matter, save the opening sentence fragment... This is likely the reason people avoid adding their input, because of random and very needless nit-pickery.


What if I decide to skip ahead a year? For example, what if for some reason, I put one of my characters into a year long coma? What if their just at home, with nothing interesting happening?
This is your choice, not anyone elses. If you want your character to sit around in a veggie-state for a year, then why should you be able to write with him anyway? Why can't you write it out as if he was in the coma for the past year and is waking to the present day world?

I can respond in questions too, Roy, but it doesn't get anyone anywhere... Just clutters the thread, like every other OOC thread. Instead of being quick to the trigger, why don't you step back and figure a way that you can work all those questions into your story, seeing as you are one person on althanas (a community of many people).


What then? Should I always make it one year ahead of what's happening? Would I have to wait OOCly for everyone else to catch up to me? Would I instead merely wait a fixed amount of time OOCly, such as a single quarter?
How would you even accurately portray the future world of althanas? How could you even effect canon of the future? Should Althanas add an "Almanac From the Future" to please Roy and his comatose-character?
(See how effective it is replying to someone fully in questions? Not very, and it comes of rather rude...)


What if I fall into an IC time warp and go back to the past? What if I go to the future?
I don't know if I should even answer that. It almost seems like your picking at my idea, just for the sake of picking, Roy. Of course whatever level your character left as, in this time-warp, would be reflected in whatever time-zone they were warped too.

[SandStorm]

forfeiting liquid time and enforcing a strict time flow in which everyone ages at the same rate.

Letho pretty much brought my suggestion to life. Yeah that would mean forfeiting liquid time, which I don't think would be a very bad thing. Stories in this community, in my opinion, should relate to Althanas a little more than just using Althanas' nation names. If your characters going to be in a coma for a year, shit, write some quests of him dreaming up some crazy crap. If your character is going to travel to the past, then it better be to an accurate past that is true to Althanas. At least with my suggestion...

and Artie good example, btw, thanks for adding that, because that's exactly what I'm talking about. Why should I fight someone who isn't really true to their character? Roy do you even know what age any of your characters really are in Althanas' current timeline (that being post-Raiaera War and post-Salvar Civil War)? I doubt it

So to suggest another change for Althanas 2.0:

Eliminating liquid time, or eliminate the ability to effect canon with liquid time... Also disable spoils given to people who write in liquid time. Maybe writing a story about how your character got some of his level 0 skills wouldn't be so bad.

[Letho]

The only way for strict time flow to work is not to make it mandatory for people to follow it. I mean, people write what they want to write. They don't want to go through stories they don't really feel like writing, waiting for Althanas time to catch up so they can write what they want. This would further detract from the writing aspect of the site and add to it feeling like a game. So while I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of a timeline being established, I don't think we should really force it on the players or sanction them if they use liquid time instead.

[SandStorm]

Yeah, but the question should be: Do judges want to spend time judging stuff that has little to do with this site?

Maybe not an enforce the timeline to a full extent, but like I said: Awarding spoils in the form of skills, weapons, and gp should only happen if the story is in the current timeframe.

If Roy's character were to go into a coma, wake in the future, do whatever quest he chooses (in the future), complete said quest.... Than why should he (or anyone in the same boat) be awarded anything (from the future) that he can take to the past and use?

Edit: I'd also like to add that without putting a ristriction on liquid time it'll be really hard to have anybody effect canon, at all. I imagine this is the reason why so many people who are "Canon-Worthy" aren't mentioned in the almanacs, but as it is I don't even know what year we're in and I've been here 5 years...
-There needs to be some set date in which Althanas operates off of, if someone so chooses to veer from the time than that's their choice. If anything they should forfeit spoils/canon options in place of exp, or something... Best I got

[Aiko]

Why can't you write it out as if he was in the coma for the past year and is waking to the present day world?
That would work if it was the initial thread, but discounts storyline possibilities in which something happens at a later point after a few threads that knocks said character into a coma.

Instead of being quick to the trigger, why don't you step back and figure a way that you can work all those questions into your story, seeing as you are one person on althanas (a community of many people).
Hence the questions to clarify your idea for my own purposes.


How would you even accurately portray the future world of althanas?
By taking all varibles as currently indicated by canon and extrapolating from there what would happen should no PC's interfere, since the world is PC driven and not NPC driven, allowing for changes of varying importance based both on how far in the future I was going, and what the general NPC attitudes were at the present. Technology would thusly improve at an according rate, and in an appropriate direction.


How could you even effect canon of the future?
By not effecting it on a world-wide basis, merely on a personal basis. The past is written in stone, the future on the currents of air. Any story done, any action taken would clearly be in an alternate timeline, however time would still pass for the character making them older by a gap dependent upon how much time was passed out of the present moment. This means that it would still have to be accounted for under your system of unified time.




Of course whatever level your character left as, in this time-warp, would be reflected in whatever time-zone they were warped too.

A relief to know then.


Roy do you even know what age any of your characters really are in Althanas' current timeline
Yes, even the NPC's.

[Aiko]

If Roy's character were to go into a coma, wake in the future, do whatever quest he chooses (in the future), complete said quest.... Than why should he (or anyone in the same boat) be awarded anything (from the future) that he can take to the past and use?

They shouldn't be awarded, regardless of who they are. It doesn't make sense otherwise, as that would open the possibility of Temporal Paradoxes, and those are rarely ever truly easy to completly resolve and fully understand, if they even can be in the first place.

The only reason I would ever have to go into the future, or the past, is for storyline purposes only, not for spoils or some such nonesense, not even for EXP and Gold. The story is more important to me than anything else.

[Saxon]

Yeah, but the question should be: Do judges want to spend time judging stuff that has little to do with this site?

Unfortunately for you, most of them are somewhat on topic. In that they a) Acknowledge they are somewhere or bear some connection to Althanas, and b) Their plot revolves around either the characters' themselves or the environment they are in. If those two things are somewhat on target when critiquing a thread, Judges are generally happy to have just that.

And while it's cool to read a quest that actively acknowledges the canon you wrote for a particular region, it isn't necessary to enforce. I always liked the idea of people interpreting the events on Althanas in their own way and affecting them differently then everybody else. But, I digress.

Liquid time has its purpose, and I think what you're mentioning is a very small incident of having liquid time in the first place. There have been quests of people who use liquid time while doing a quest that occurs in a character's past and abuse it by not acknowledging their past self would obviously be different from the present one, but this rarely happens. To the point, where really, suspending liquid time on that basis is a bit silly.


Eliminating liquid time, or eliminate the ability to effect canon with liquid time... Also disable spoils given to people who write in liquid time. Maybe writing a story about how your character got some of his level 0 skills wouldn't be so bad.

While I don't really have any qualms with people aging at the same rate or establishing some sort of timeline for people so that we can all be able to reflect it with accurate dates, etc. I do think its a bit much to incentivize what I'm guessing is people writing in the present by taking away from those who don't. I think? But, in reality, I think this idea is just nitpicking at a very small problem to the point that its being blown out of proportion.

[Letho]

Yeah, but the question should be: Do judges want to spend time judging stuff that has little to do with this site?

Maybe not an enforce the timeline to a full extent, but like I said: Awarding spoils in the form of skills, weapons, and gp should only happen if the story is in the current timeframe.

If Roy's character were to go into a coma, wake in the future, do whatever quest he chooses (in the future), complete said quest.... Than why should he (or anyone in the same boat) be awarded anything (from the future) that he can take to the past and use?

Edit: I'd also like to add that without putting a ristriction on liquid time it'll be really hard to have anybody effect canon, at all. I imagine this is the reason why so many people who are "Canon-Worthy" aren't mentioned in the almanacs, but as it is I don't even know what year we're in and I've been here 5 years...
-There needs to be some set date in which Althanas operates off of, if someone so chooses to veer from the time than that's their choice. If anything they should forfeit spoils/canon options in place of exp, or something... Best I gotI don't know. I don't really see the point in forcing this on people or rewarding them for that matter. Is someone's thread less valuable just because it's not happening in 1043 AD and they don't incorporate the recent change in the local government? Hell no. And is someone more or less creative if they adopt the setting/timeline some mod created for them or follow their own? Besides, people who incorporate the local info are bound to get a higher score in some segments and therefore more EXP, and according to this new system, they also get a chance to affect the region canon.

I do agree with you that thread that don't occur in the "present" (whenever that might be), shouldn't affect the canon. But that's probably why we'll have Canon Moderators to keep these things in line.

[SandStorm]

Which is why it was a suggestion, and I'd have to say that the debating over this one topic has been blown way out of proportion.

If you don't like my one suggestion, than just say you don't like it. Maybe throw a few reasons why you don't. This shouldn't be a thread that's cluttered with multiple parties debating the same stuff over and over. I appreciate the input, but it's at the point where it's repeating itself, and I keep feeling like I have to justify myself (which I shouldn't).

Edit: Any suggestions of your own Roy? What about you Saxon? I'd love to hear 'em guys.

[Saxon]

Which is why it was a suggestion, and I'd have to say that the debating over this one topic has been blown way out of proportion.

If you don't like my one suggestion, than just say you don't like it. Maybe throw a few reasons why you don't. This shouldn't be a thread that's cluttered with multiple parties debating the same stuff over and over. I appreciate the input, but it's at the point where it's repeating itself, and I keep feeling like I have to justify myself (which I shouldn't).

First. You need to learn to take constructive criticism more on the chin instead of getting butthurt that people are disagreeing with you. You voiced your suggestion, people commented on it. You, I or nobody else have the benefit of absolutism, so when other members see that either of us are wrong, they can call us out on it. Its part of being a community, and if you don't like that fact then perhaps you need to reconsider your position in this conversation and the many others I've seen concerning Althanas 2.0 where you've argued over other member's ideas with your own opinions. Which is your right to do so. Just don't cry about it when things stack against you.



Edit: Any suggestions of your own Roy? What about you Saxon? I'd love to hear 'em guys.


Sure.

1) I'd be happy with a more objective, standardized rubric that judges could use. As well as better training and oversight for the judging staff.

2) A restructuring of the bazaar would be nice with alterations to how exchanges in gold and items is figured out so those moderating it don't have to use complicated, unnecessary formulas to compute how much it is going to cost me to purchase something.

3) I love the idea that region writing is finally being phased out for something that is more community based to give members more of an opportunity to incorporate their own interpretations of what is going into Althanas into their respective almanacs. This previously could only be done at a RW's discretion or with big, overarching events like the FQ that were poorly managed and long outlived their welcome on this site. However, I don't just see it as feasible to enforce people to endorse everyone's contributions. Incorporating them into the almanac should be enough.

4) Simplifying the RoG with less bueracracy and red tape would be nice. The rules made to govern character restrictions are a bit unnecessary in my opinion. More writer control with less oversight in this area would be nice, because incidences like Luc Kraus are isolated and are propagated by the neglect of those who were reviewing his profile and allowed him to have such obscene power. No amount of rules or regulations in the world are going to prevent that if you simply aren't going to do every part of your job instead of just part of it when you're feeling lazy. If RoG moderators read rather then skimmed profiles and used better judgment in what should or shouldn't be allowed, I'm sure that incidences of having more power-whores around here wouldn't be as frequent as critics of this idea would like to believe.

5) Allowing the progression of leveling through experience to be far easier then how it stands now. Working for six months on a quest that I might score an 80-85 with to earn a tenth of my level isn't worth the investment. If levels were made a bit easier to gain to reflect the amount of work done on threads, especially on those you know have taken months or longer to produce, it would definitely make it worth my while to write more.

As I have observed, with Althanas 2.0, it looks like the site is going for more of a gaming model. If you read my suggestions above, most of these are being addressed anyway. I for the most part am just waiting to see if this is actually going somewhere or if its going to fall flat on its face. Everybody's been kind of edgy about whether this is going to work or not, so I'm not going to invest a lot of time in arguing over something that may or may not come to fruition. Just saying.

[Rayse Valentino]

3a) I'd like to add the question of: Is it necessary to RP with CMs (Canon Masters) in order to create canon? Can a thread not simply be submitted for it? You don't even have to bother judges with it, just put a summary of what happened/will happen/is happenings in the OOC spoils and the CM will get to it after a judge. Their workload would be easier than RoG staff, which I previously thought impossible.

5a) As an addendum, one suggestion is to scale down the experience requirements for levels 1 and 2. It would take longer to get to 3, but you wouldn't have to touch any of the formulas. I think anyone who reaches level 2 tends to stick around (hell, anyone who reaches level 1), and making those levels accessible within 1-2 threads would be a big boost for incentives.

[Jack Frost]

I like Rayse's idea, only because as I level zero I felt like I had to cut back on what I had planned, and it changes the character to a point where they're no longer fun to write...

[Scrotus]

First. You need to learn to take constructive criticism more on the chin instead of getting butthurt that people are disagreeing with you. You voiced your suggestion, people commented on it. You, I or nobody else have the benefit of absolutism, so when other members see that either of us are wrong, they can call us out on it. Its part of being a community, and if you don't like that fact then perhaps you need to reconsider your position in this conversation and the many others I've seen concerning Althanas 2.0 where you've argued over other member's ideas with your own opinions. Which is your right to do so. Just don't cry about it when things stack against you.
I need to reconsider my position in this conversation? How so? I'm the only reason this conversation is even happening at this point. The only thing I tried to do was get this thread back on the right track. I didn't get emotionally hurt in any way, shape, or form over what you guys were saying (towards a half-assed idea that I just threw out there to get people posting in this thread at that matter). Unlike the rest of these E-babies, and as you should already know Saxon, I don't take this OOC crap to heart. My only attempt was to get this thread in the right direction. If you guys are constantly badgering on the same idea, and that person who made the idea is constantly defending him/her -self, how is this thread supposed to progress? As I stated earlier, it's this exact reason, paired with the fact that you'll have to post again to get the last word in, that so many OOC thread are derailed.

Thanks for finally throwing in some ideas of your own though Saxon. It only took you two months which is surprising because you're the opinionated type ;).

[Saxon]

As I stated earlier, it's this exact reason, paired with the fact that you'll have to post again to get the last word in, that so many OOC thread are derailed.


Yup.

[SirArtemis]

I will confess that I did not read the wall of text since my last post and now, and only some of it. So I apologize if I'm repeating anything...

I like the idea of a stricter timeline, but the only thing that I really would recommend is that if an individual is writing, they take time into account. If they are writing in past tense about their character's history, then so be it. Take into account that character's history. This could alter the format of how skills work by adding a "year" to when an individual acquired a particular skill and when events occur. If an individual wants to fight someone, they could strangely agree to fight 3 years in the "past" or in "present" (which could still be written as past tense of course).

With something like continuity being around, and wanting to replace it with something such as relation to the Althanian world, I think taking time into account is just as important with respect to age and ability and history as it is to external events such as wars and disasters.

An example like a werewolf who is bit at age 25, but the aging stops and they are 100 years old, can write the story of when they were bit at age 25 when it was 75 years in the past and look at the Althanian timeline in order to create the appropriate setting. This could also be a good mechanism for establishing Canon for extremely old characters or with stories that are "flashbacks" that pertain to something such as ancestor's of a particular character living 400 years back in Althanian time where things were less established. The "canon writing mod" or whatever the hell it's called could work together with the other writers to establish a small piece of what Althanas was like 400 years ago in place "X" and it would be fun to piece together a history through the writers of the website.

I'm not saying force people to write coinciding with the present date of Althanas, but maybe if they have a "storyline" they want to develop in mind when they are working at it, they could write it so that the end of that storyline "ends" in present tense where they can continue from there. The main concern is writing in the "future" of Althanas, and I'll admit, I have no idea how to cope with that other than just letting Althanas move forward at whatever pace and letting writers establish "chunks" of history as they go in different years. You could set a "year" of general Althanas so that writers have a reference point, but not force people to stay in that year.

[Cyrus the virus]

Pretty sick of being the go-to example for overpowered characters.

I'll have you know Slayer of the Rot (his fucking character's name changes too much) has beaten Luc a few times! Actually, Luc has probably lost ICly more than anyone. If I were less lazy I would tabulate all of it.

Yes, if I was a cockface I could have played Luc like a retard and threw seven tornadoes at thirty countries at once, but I rarely did. In fact, almost every thread I wrote him really powerfully in didn't finish, and he was going to lose in every fucking one. Come on. The potential he has to be abused as a character is very high, definitely, but don't make it seem like I ever went around tearing shit up to be an asshole.

Now where's Godhand to yell at me and escalate?

On topic: A timeline of some sort, a VERY LOOSE calendar, would not be a bad idea. People would be free to ignore it. You would face all the same problems then as you do now, in regards to comas and whatever-the-fuck-else, except characters would be able to age naturally and have it make a bit more sense.