Level Zero Profile (questions)

[Scrotus]

Okay so I'd like to start this out by saying: Letho this is not an attempt to lash out at you in any way, shape, or form. I like you man, as a mod and a writer (no homo).

With that out of the way I'd like to question the following:

Profile I recently made (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=21910)

Note that the only skills are his speed skill (which only works when in Fallien, rendering him useless in PvP citadel duels and really anywhere else besides Fallien) and also his sabre (or other light swords) skill (which was originally expert, but I was asked to change before being approved)

Profile recently created by someone else (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?p=176453#post176453)

Note that he has a speed skill increase also(that works regardless of location in the playing world), not to mention he's an expert in swordsmanship (which pretty much spans over any swordlike weapon, as to which I put a limitation on mine).

So how does this work out? I noticed you (Letho) mentioned the changes to come and what not, but allowing something that wasn't priorly allowed at level 0 so aburptly is very strange, to say the least. I even questioned in my approval about expert level skills on level 0's and made an attempt to weaken (note the fact, again, that my enhanced speed only works within one region of the world) my other skills so I could get the expert status.

I just want some insight, not a turd-slinging match. This isn't a dick-measuring contest, so please keep the useless input to a low ladies and gents. Thanks.

[Duffy]

Also, even though before we didn't allow expert anything at level zero, with the new rules around a corner (or a couple of corners), we're going to be allowing it, so I'll just jump ahead and allow it.

Letho was fairly self-explanatory in his response to the former over the later profile. Your second biography is subject to pending rules changes within the Realm of Greeting (recently discussed in one of many public threads). Your first was submitted long before this, and so was subject to the previous Realm of Greeting restrictions.

[Scrotus]

There is a 21 day seperation between the two, in that time I have seen no official changes made to the RoG. I brought up the public thread, in which these rule changes were discussed, and it didn't change anything. Duffy, you didn't really provide anything solid to the conversation besides a quote, which I've already read. Public threads discussing RoG changes, to my knowledge, don't change the actual policy and unless there was a solid change to the RoG guidelines (which if there was, please link me to it) I don't see how this profile can recieve the expert swordsmanship.

[Amber Eyes]

I think what we've come to an agreement about as far as Average, above average, expert and so on is that there isn't actually a way to limit skills based on a word. Above average to one person may mean something totally different than it would to another. Like Duffy pointed out, Letho was told of the changes after November 9, so he wasn't aware of the coming changes. As far as the speed boost goes, I'm assuming that was because of the difference in 1.5X speed versus 2X speed. I'm sure he'll check in and let us know.

[Scrotus]

Well then my next question would have to be:
Why hasn't the rest of the community been notified of the changes?

[Slayer of the Rot]

Uh. Right. However, personally, I don't see any of these changes either. I can't particularly see how its entirely fair for one to be treated differently if these changes aren't entirely public unless I don't know, your fancy-ass 2.0 is going up tonight.

[Letho]

Well then my next question would have to be:
Why hasn't the rest of the community been notified of the changes?Because the details aren't definitive and the discussion about the specifics is still ongoing. But most mods agreed that we should take off the limit on skills, and this is how it will be once it's made official. After that, you'll apparently be able to have whatever level skill you like, but the abilities will still be regulated by the RoG as before. So with that in mind, I allowed expert on that specific profile because once the rules are made official some time soon, it won't really matter. The majority of the discussion has been going on between your profile and this last one, hence the difference.

[Scrotus]

Cool Letho, thanks for the update man.

In the future going foward could there be some kind of official note of this? So the entire community can be informed, of course.

[Saxon]

Sorry to interrupt your conversation, Scrotus, but I call bullshit.

'Being in talks' is fine if you're a diplomat, but you're managing a site and supporting a community. Whether you realize it or not, your hesitation to reveal any final decisions over this out of threat of being reprimanded is admitting to everyone you're afraid of its potential faliure. I'm not saying this out of criticism, but out of the necessity for something like this to work. If you want the community and everybody else to support it, I'd suggest posting what you're going to add and modify it as it comes down the pipe. That way everybody knows what's going on and if any problems arise they can follow your logic instead of accusing you of being draconian or incompetent.

Things change, we all know that, but going around saying you're hiding it from us under the excuse that its still under discussion is not valid if you want people to take much stock into this. Yeah, the staff has had its ass handed to it before over stupid shit, but if you want to at least make changes at this level you have to at least give all of us the appearance that you have faith that something like this works, even if you really don't. And the easiest way to do that besides publically supporting it is with transparency.

You guys seem like you're really adamant about this, and we're a month away from show time. I think the whole keeping it behind the veil thing stopped after Max announced this in the first place. Any point afterwards where you're implementing rules and enforcing them without notifying the community at large first is just being vindictive. These particular circumstances, yeah its understandable, but if you're going to enforce something like this, post the update already.

[Christoph]

Far be it for me to agree with Saxon, but it's definitely silly to act upon policy changes that have not been officially posted. How would any member, new or old, know what they can and should do in their character registration without updated guidelines? I bugged Max about this a while ago, when changes were supposedly made, because no official thread or updates were posted where it mattered: in the RoG forum.

[Hysteria]

FYI that character is mine.


Note that the only skills are his speed skill (which only works when in Fallien, rendering him useless in PvP citadel duels and really anywhere else besides Fallien) and also his sabre (or other light swords) skill (which was originally expert, but I was asked to change before being approved)

I'm not sure the two limits on the skills (being in Fallien and the type of sword) really effect the game play that much. Yes it sucks with most PVPs being Radsanath, but I could put other limits on it and simply not play them (not what I think you are doing mind, just as an example of a flaw in the system that could be exploited). Like a weakness to being underground, thats not exactly going to happen unless I want it. Same with the swords, that character is only going to use the one sword forever, it'll be rare that he has to use another. Even then no one would doc you for using a different sword for your skill.

As the the expert sword thing, I'm not sure. I RP according to the skill level, but a lot of people seem to think its useless. *shrug* I might take out the word expert and just say hes pretty good.

[Lord Anglekos]

As the the expert sword thing, I'm not sure. I RP according to the skill level, but a lot of people seem to think its useless. *shrug* I might take out the word expert and just say hes pretty good.
I too RP according to my character's skill level. I believe that one's skill directly affects another opponent; but that's just me.

[Hysteria]

I get the argument that how well someone uses a sword is based on their writing, but then if I had a Legendary sword skill I'd do legendary shit with it. Like deflecting arrows, (Jet Li - Hero style) or cutting logs in half (Guts from Berserker style). If that becomes possible without a skill *shrug*

Also of course I don't see much of a difference between projectile skills and projectile spells in terms of accuracy. If you a novice with a bow or robin hood, there's quite a difference, the same in my mind as a novice wizard compared to a master.

[Scrotus]

FYI that character is mine.
It really doesn't make a difference to me if that character was yours, or if it was Jesus Christ's. This isn't me trying to pick on anybody in particular, so it doesn't make a difference if the character was King Kong's, Godzilla's, or even a member of the ICP. The issue that you seem to have missed was that there was no official announcement in the ROG policy shift, and that issue has already been resolved.

[Melancor]

I too RP according to my character's skill level. I believe that one's skill directly affects another opponent; but that's just me.

Just throwing this out there. But I do the same. I always have to keep in mind the probability in which my character will hit something, and I always try to make my characters limitations clear. I wouldn't want to power game.

Bottom line, I think since they are already accepting registrations with the news rules on skills it would be safe to just role play at the level you desire until you update your character again. :)


EDIT: Oh whoops, I didn't see the thread had ended already :P

[Scrotus]

I will include (and hopefully conclude) by saying that the whole system of being expert/novice/amatuer/the bees knees/or whatever else you'd like to substitute, is broken, because there is no real average to build reference from.

Edited: De-snide-ified

[Letho]

Sorry to interrupt your conversation, Scrotus, but I call bullshit.

'Being in talks' is fine if you're a diplomat, but you're managing a site and supporting a community. Whether you realize it or not, your hesitation to reveal any final decisions over this out of threat of being reprimanded is admitting to everyone you're afraid of its potential faliure. I'm not saying this out of criticism, but out of the necessity for something like this to work. If you want the community and everybody else to support it, I'd suggest posting what you're going to add and modify it as it comes down the pipe. That way everybody knows what's going on and if any problems arise they can follow your logic instead of accusing you of being draconian or incompetent.

Things change, we all know that, but going around saying you're hiding it from us under the excuse that its still under discussion is not valid if you want people to take much stock into this. Yeah, the staff has had its ass handed to it before over stupid shit, but if you want to at least make changes at this level you have to at least give all of us the appearance that you have faith that something like this works, even if you really don't. And the easiest way to do that besides publically supporting it is with transparency.

You guys seem like you're really adamant about this, and we're a month away from show time. I think the whole keeping it behind the veil thing stopped after Max announced this in the first place. Any point afterwards where you're implementing rules and enforcing them without notifying the community at large first is just being vindictive. These particular circumstances, yeah its understandable, but if you're going to enforce something like this, post the update already.The thing is, that approach works in a perfect world. On Althanas, you put something in front of a shitload of people and you get a shitload of opinions and never, and I mean NEVER, a clear consensus. Even with less than a dozen mods discussing a single issue we can't totally agree on something, let alone the entire community. Now imagine what happens when everyone gets their say and try to shape Althanas just the way they like it? Besides, this discussion and changes are borne out of the outcries of the community we heard over the time and we're trying to make some changes. Are we supposed to clear every little thing with the public of Althanas? It seems that no matter what we do nowadays there's always someone (and this is not aimed at you, Scrotus, your question was perfectly valid) calling bullshit and taking his turn to badmouth the staff. I personally don't really care anymore, but it's just getting old to ignore all the crap. (NOTE: Not the official standpoint of the Althanas Staff, someone more tactful will probably come around soon enough to provide one).

Anyways, as far as it goes right now skills will be classified mostly as knowledge of something, but what can be done with it will be defined in abilities. So even if you do like to put whatever adjective you want in front of the skill, you won't be able to cut through seven people and deflect bullets until you have it registered as an ability. You can claim to be a legendary mage at level zero, but your spells will be as strong as those of current level zeros. You can be a master archer at level zero, but your accuracy will still depend on what you register as an ability and not the adjective you use. And before you start slinging shit my way, this is Max's brainchild and it's still not clearly defined, so direct further inquires and the dung his way for a change because he probably has more definitive answers.

[Max Dirks]

I get the argument that how well someone uses a sword is based on their writing, but then if I had a Legendary sword skill I'd do legendary shit with it. Like deflecting arrows, (Jet Li - Hero style) or cutting logs in half (Guts from Berserker style). Perfect example. Let me tell you how this will be moderated in 3.0:

We don't care about the knowledge. In order to block a blade your character needs to know the exact location where to swing the blade and at what trajectory to split the arrow perfectly so the shards don't hit you. An "expert swordsman" might know all that. However, we do care about the tangible things. It takes fast reflexes (agility, dexterity) to notice the arrow the arrow in the first place and prepare to defend against it. This includes the swinging action. If you have a buster sword, it takes more strength to swing than a little knife. You'll also need a decent weapon. A little iron sword probably won't split a titanium arrowhead, will it? These are the things that are being moderated. Call them tangible skills, (I prefer) abilities, whatever. What we're not moderating is your character's know-how of the situation or knowledge of how to do stuff.

Say you have a low leveled character who knows how to do the move and does against a level 7 character. The judge will likely say "that dodge was pretty unfair (and unlikely) given your lack of ability to perform it" and dock you points for powergaming. We won't question how your character knows that move though. This means if you want to play a soldier, for example, it's not like you have to RP out basic training again in order to learn how to split an arrow. Same goes with other less combat oriented skills. So you're an expert cook, great! We don't care.

So really, you can say your character is a "master swordsman" if you want, but in reality at level zero he's definitely not one.

[Hysteria]

It really doesn't make a difference to me if that character was yours, or if it was Jesus Christ's. This isn't me trying to pick on anybody in particular, so it doesn't make a difference if the character was King Kong's, Godzilla's, or even a member of the ICP. The issue that you seem to have missed was that there was no official announcement in the ROG policy shift, and that issue has already been resolved.

I didn't mean to suggest you were, I thought the contextual information might have been usefull. I didn't miss the issue, I just didn't think it was worth commenting on, but I did think it was worth commenting on different related issues.


Say you have a low leveled character who knows how to do the move and does against a level 7 character. The judge will likely say "that dodge was pretty unfair (and unlikely) given your lack of ability to perform it" and dock you points for powergaming. We won't question how your character knows that move though. This means if you want to play a soldier, for example, it's not like you have to RP out basic training again in order to learn how to split an arrow. Same goes with other less combat oriented skills. So you're an expert cook, great! We don't care.

I see.

[Silence Sei]

It really doesn't make a difference to me if that character was yours, or if it was Jesus Christ's.


Ummm, Jesus' Daddy would like to talk to you about something....

[Saxon]

The thing is, that approach works in a perfect world. On Althanas, you put something in front of a shitload of people and you get a shitload of opinions and never, and I mean NEVER, a clear consensus. Even with less than a dozen mods discussing a single issue we can't totally agree on something, let alone the entire community. Now imagine what happens when everyone gets their say and try to shape Althanas just the way they like it? Besides, this discussion and changes are borne out of the outcries of the community we heard over the time and we're trying to make some changes. Are we supposed to clear every little thing with the public of Althanas? It seems that no matter what we do nowadays there's always someone (and this is not aimed at you, Scrotus, your question was perfectly valid) calling bullshit and taking his turn to badmouth the staff. I personally don't really care anymore, but it's just getting old to ignore all the crap. (NOTE: Not the official standpoint of the Althanas Staff, someone more tactful will probably come around soon enough to provide one).

Anyways, as far as it goes right now skills will be classified mostly as knowledge of something, but what can be done with it will be defined in abilities. So even if you do like to put whatever adjective you want in front of the skill, you won't be able to cut through seven people and deflect bullets until you have it registered as an ability. You can claim to be a legendary mage at level zero, but your spells will be as strong as those of current level zeros. You can be a master archer at level zero, but your accuracy will still depend on what you register as an ability and not the adjective you use. And before you start slinging shit my way, this is Max's brainchild and it's still not clearly defined, so direct further inquires and the dung his way for a change because he probably has more definitive answers.

Luckily, this world may not be perfect, but it's more ideal then I thought. Before you decide to pull the rug completely out from under me, I want to say that my statement earlier was clarified and answered last night by Max. Why he won't post what he or somebody with actual authority won't post what he confirmed in the chatroom to diffuse whatever mysterious hostility you think I or others have for this grand idea, I still do not know.

However, for the sake of acknowledging the pink elephant in the middle of the room, I will.

What he confirmed was this; All of these changes you and the boys are in charge of developing have the deadline of Dec. 15th to be turned in. Ideally, this update will start on January 1st. Before that, something will be posted with the complete update to notify the community some time in December prior to the update which will shutdown the site momentarily. But, the point is that regardless, the community will be notified of the changes being made prior to when they are actually being made.

Jesus, what a long road to go for a simple answer. And if people aren't satisfied with this so far, the reason why an update hasn't been posted yet is because the content hasn't been finished yet. Granted, I still think that's a bit much, but if the list of the complete update is supposedly coming anyway, what's the point in arguing over it?

[Ailnea]

Now, I have a technical inquiry on that, which also doubles as pointing out a potential loophole/flaw in the system.

What about characters for whom there is no difference between know how and ability?

A wizard/magic user of choice (and there be plenty on the site) already has the ability to use magic. The only real limit is the lack of knowledge of differing spells.

For example, the only thing stopping Xos from using the magic spell "Tremor" to create small localized earthquakes is the fact that he doesn't know the spell. He knows the concepts and theories behind Earthquakes and what causes them, but he doesn't actually know the spell.

So, how are situations like that going to be addressed in the new era?

[Elrundir]

I think that situation boils down to semantics, after a fashion. What Max seems to be saying (I apologize if I misunderstood) is that what a character knows how to do is irrelevant in the eyes of the system. In other words, your character might know the theory behind creating earthquakes. He might even know how to do it. He might even claim he's able to do it. But if he doesn't have it specifically listed on his profile as a skill/ability, and have it approved by the RoG mods, then he can't do it.

What it boils down to, then, is IC justification for why that is so, and I figure there are a number of different ways of doing that. Maybe he knows how but isn't powerful enough to perform the spell yet; that personally would be my way of explaining it, I think, since it also ties in well with our leveling system. Maybe he knows the basics but doesn't understand the specifics well enough to actually put the spell together (similar, perhaps, to someone who knows the basics of how a car works but nevertheless has no idea how to build, or maybe even fix, one). The actual reasons will probably differ from one character to the next, so I figure the choice is up to the individual player.

[Duffy]

And that is why Elrundir gets a cookie, and the rest of you do not ;).

[Elrundir]

Thank god, I'm starving. *noms*

[Max Dirks]

Ailnea, all forms of magic are considered abilities and will be moderated accordingly.

The hangup in our discussion was over things like swordsmanship, marksmanship, lockpicking, cooking, singing, etc. (i.e. skills that would have a direct affect on others in competition in real life ((due to differing amounts of knowledge)), but not on Althanas). There is no way to regulate knowledge on this site without limiting creativity, so we've decided that knowledge related "skills" will not be important. Knowledge related "abilities," on the other hand, will.

EDIT: Basically, we're not regulating the WHY or the HOW; we're regulating the WHAT. So your mage can know the cosmos, but at level one he can't use it to bring down a meteor to destroy your opponent.

Also, let me remind everyone that when I say "will not be regulated," I mean in the ROG only. Powergaming rules, particularly the part that refers to fairness will be enforced in all aspects of the game. This includes regulation with respect to "skills." If you use superior tactical knowledge to pin your opponent into a position he does not want to be in citing only that knowledge, you'll lose points. For example, I lost points for manuevering Dirks right behind Thoracis in my LCC battle with him. I play Dirks as a perfect shot (perfectly acceptable back in the day), so I tried to increase my chances of hitting by firing at point blank range. At this point, he would have lost points if he would have dodged because of how unrealistic it would have been. Though I didn't bunny, I did powergame and I lost points accordingly. On the other hand, if I would have manuevered Dirks to his position over the course of a few posts, letting Thoracis know that's what I intended, it would not have been powergaming.

See what I mean?

[Rayse Valentino]

It amuses me that people care so much about such frivolous issues. Then again, my solution is to just ignore the system entirely. Feel restricted? IGNORE IT. Give a good IC reason you can do something in the thread you're doing it in, get permission from the other opponent if you want to powergame, and have at it. I said in another thread that you don't need the staff's permission to change the regions, and you don't need it to play your character either. I've yet to see anyone have points taken off for doing anything out of their means, much less anything with decent enough reason.

Honestly, there are so many more important issues, but everyone has to focus on the 'oh god we must stop this Orwellian nightmare' ones instead of the ones that actually take effort and work to fix.

[Scrotus]

Pointless Thread + Rayse Useless Input = ???

Ignoring the system is not a good solution. If it were that easy there wouldn't be a system in place to begin with. I know you try to present that rebellious, teenager mentality in every OOC thread, but when are you going to realize it's not really that cool? Or even useful, for that matter.


Honestly, there are so many more important issues, but everyone has to focus on the 'oh god we must stop this Orwellian nightmare' ones instead of the ones that actually take effort and work to fix.

What issues have you brought up? What does the ego-maniac Rayse deem as "a more important issue?" I had a question, it was answered, and the information discussed and brought up by the rest of the community was pretty useful. As it stands, the only black sheep in this thread is you, Rayse. Just because your complex doesn't allow you to be concerned with the community as a whole, doesn't make the issues brought up and discussed any less important than any others. People showed interest in this "frivolous" topic because there was obviously answers they needed or wanted.

[Rayse Valentino]

Sorry, I forgot about all your amazing contributions to the site's content, and just remembered your near-meaningless semantic argument about word usage in skills. My message was not to take everything in the profile literally and seriously. The actual content of your profile takes a backseat to what you want to do. Do first, worry about consequences later, and if everyone thought like this we wouldn't have 50 threads each with 900 pages of discussion and instead we'd have actual content, maybe even some quality.

People like you are the reason people think it's great that half the site's regions are stuck in canon limbo and two words change in the RoG guidelines.

[Max Dirks]

And Rayse and Scrotus are now on a final warning for flaming. Look guys, first and foremost Althanas 3.0 is about bringing in fresh blood. We'll never be able to do that if the vets can't respect each other enough to keep their discussions of this sort private. One more incident from either of you and the ban will be permanent.

[Jack Frost]

Shivers
This seems a heated debate...
Heres my two cents.

What bugs me is that now all of these new guys get to start with a leg up on some of us older new fags here, like me. this guy gets to start with expert swordsmanship, which by default means he is "exceptional" at using a blade. Due to situation if Jack, who even at level one won;t have expert anything, fights this new guy he will get slaughtered. Because of the timing the difference leaves a split in our current members. Scrotus is raising the fact that there is now a split in new members and its really unfair. Take the fact that he got a skill debuffed, and then a little under a month later some new guy with no past experience comes and gets the same skill approved just because of timing. If this does become prominent you may want to let current level zeros edit their profile to include upcoming changes changes.

[Elrundir]

Shivers
This seems a heated debate...
Heres my two cents.

What bugs me is that now all of these new guys get to start with a leg up on some of us older new fags here, like me. this guy gets to start with expert swordsmanship, which by default means he is "exceptional" at using a blade. Due to situation if Jack, who even at level one won;t have expert anything, fights this new guy he will get slaughtered. Because of the timing the difference leaves a split in our current members. Scrotus is raising the fact that there is now a split in new members and its really unfair. Take the fact that he got a skill debuffed, and then a little under a month later some new guy with no past experience comes and gets the same skill approved just because of timing. If this does become prominent you may want to let current level zeros edit their profile to include upcoming changes changes.
Well, I think part of the reasoning behind this is that words like "expert" have very little intrinsic value. Just because your profile says you're an expert swordsman doesn't mean anything in and of itself, because there's no such thing as a hierarchy. We do have levels, which count for a lot more, though admittedly it's still not as black and white as that; a level 10 character may have only recently started training with a sword, and may be outmatched at swordplay by even a level 5.

But then, at least in theory, the judging is supposed to take this into account too. If a level 0 character plays a battle as if he or she is the best swordsman to have ever lived, and writes himself as being an even match for a level 5 character that has been swordfighting since he was created, and even if they're not using an actual "ability" that's not on their sheet, may (and probably should) very well have points docked for powergaming. And after all, the score is what counts in the end.

[Scrotus]

Well maybe there should be a system in place that makes it so people must state in their profile how many levels they have used a certain skill or skill-set.

Example:
(For a now level 5)Swordsmanship: Began at level 0 -That's five levels of practice
Vs.
(For a now level 10)Swordsmanship: Began at level 9 -That's one

-From that alone it's pretty clear who will outclass who with that skill. I think doing it this way would provide more strategy to fights, because if I was facing off with a really powerful wizard, whose weak with swords, I'd want to get up close and personal. If I was facing Letho, whose had swordsmanship probably for close to all of his levels, I'd want to steer clear of him and use a different tactic.

That's one way of doing it. That way at level 0 you can have whatever skills you want and it's determined on the levels that you use that skill. During profile updates you can choose to continue advancing that skill with level counters, or add new ones. Maybe each level you get a certain ammount of level counters (basically skill points). I think it would also decrease a lot of clutter in peoples profile. Instead of having to read long-winded descriptions of how someone wields their sword, you could just see that they are "X" levels counters into that skill set. My thoughts on the fly.

I think the problem with the current way we're doing it is that we have nothing to base off of. Someone people have it writen as "better than the average human" where someone else could have "better than the average elf." If there was a point system in effect it would not only decrease clutter within profiles, but also help the RoG mods out when approving profiles. It could also help with powergaming because one player could just say "look broseph, I'm a better swordfight fo-shizzle... Look at my counters." There'd be no arguement.

Attributes would also have to come into play, because someone with 2x speed and 3 counter points for sword-skill might be able to outclass somebody with 5 counters but only 1x speed. It would then be a case of who writes it better. So that proves a little flaw in my system here.

[Max Dirks]

That's why we're not making it at all, Scrotus. Althanas 3.0 is about simplification. We could certainly add a new system to account for knowledge, but that's more fluff for the site that is not needed. Think of it from this perspective: I doubt anyone who uses the site is a master swordsman. If your not one, or haven't done extensive research on the subject, how can you be expected to write one? If you have an imagination, use it, but realize that your character's knowledge is not what matters here (since it's related to yours), it's his ability to perform actions (based on that knowledge or not) that we care about.

Jack, everyone will be allowed (and encouraged) to resubmit their characters for re-approval after 3.0 launches. It's player initiated though, so if you think adding "expert swordsman" to your profile benefits you in anyway (which it doesn't), then feel free to have it re-approved.

[Duffy]

I finally, after some consideration, 'get' the point of this change. It's a relative system to simplify comparison, and I think it's a beneficial evolution of Althanas on the whole.

Like with any new change, it will take time for people to adapt and to come to understand it, but in said time, I feel it'll be greatly appreciated.

I genuinely believe that, Max isn't twisting my arm behind the scenes, honestly!

[Elrundir]

Well maybe there should be a system in place that makes it so people must state in their profile how many levels they have used a certain skill or skill-set.

Example:
(For a now level 5)Swordsmanship: Began at level 0 -That's five levels of practice
Vs.
(For a now level 10)Swordsmanship: Began at level 9 -That's one

-From that alone it's pretty clear who will outclass who with that skill. I think doing it this way would provide more strategy to fights, because if I was facing off with a really powerful wizard, whose weak with swords, I'd want to get up close and personal. If I was facing Letho, whose had swordsmanship probably for close to all of his levels, I'd want to steer clear of him and use a different tactic.

That's one way of doing it. That way at level 0 you can have whatever skills you want and it's determined on the levels that you use that skill. During profile updates you can choose to continue advancing that skill with level counters, or add new ones. Maybe each level you get a certain ammount of level counters (basically skill points). I think it would also decrease a lot of clutter in peoples profile. Instead of having to read long-winded descriptions of how someone wields their sword, you could just see that they are "X" levels counters into that skill set. My thoughts on the fly.

I think the problem with the current way we're doing it is that we have nothing to base off of. Someone people have it writen as "better than the average human" where someone else could have "better than the average elf." If there was a point system in effect it would not only decrease clutter within profiles, but also help the RoG mods out when approving profiles. It could also help with powergaming because one player could just say "look broseph, I'm a better swordfight fo-shizzle... Look at my counters." There'd be no arguement.

Attributes would also have to come into play, because someone with 2x speed and 3 counter points for sword-skill might be able to outclass somebody with 5 counters but only 1x speed. It would then be a case of who writes it better. So that proves a little flaw in my system here.
The main trouble with this is that, as Max said, it's getting too complicated. The trouble with implementing systems like this is that you have to throw in exceptions and clarifications and additional rules to deal with all the possibilities that pop up, and for each one of those that you add, three more loopholes appear that someone will exploit at some point. Add in the confusion to players both new and old, and you'll wind up with a system that no one wants to even bother with. Even the previous way of using adjectives was somewhat unhelpful--it's just no fun figuring out whether a "master" swordsman at level 2 is better than your "expert" swordsman at level 4. It's even less fun if you just happened to forget to upgrade your pyromantic proficiency from "above average" to "expert" (or... master or whatever the heck comes next; see the problem?) in your level-up thread.

Powergaming isn't really something that needs to be prevented by putting in rules against it; if you powergame, you basically have no chance of winning a battle or getting a high score in a quest. That's enough of a safeguard, I think. The average Althanian will probably powergame once at most, realize that "winning the battle" doesn't win you the battle, and never bother with it again. At least, not if they want to gain any real experience and rewards in their time here.

[Enigmatic Immortal]

So to clarify, I have Legendary throwing.

I know that in 3.0 it means little to nothing. How I throw the weapon is inconsequential to that title. If I throw a weapon, it is the same as anyone else. How it is dodged is up the receiver, and if they can IC'ly come up with a realistic (suspending disbelief for fantasy setting) way out, they are fine.

I assume that is what we are saying. -Not disagreeing with it either.

Now my question: If I place legendary in my profile, can i assume that because of the title it will be HARDER to come up with an IC reason to block said attack? I'm not saying that because I'm legendary a level 0 can't block me, but I do want it to be a feat that would be considered harder.

Does that makes sense? Let me try another attempt to explain in case it's not.

I have spent many threads writing up the use of throwing weapons, to a point where I have mastered it not only in my eyes, but in the eyes of those I fight. Thus legendary (people know of my skill). Am i now to assume that this time training is no longer going to be reflected when people dodge me? Should all this effort be put aside and forgotten to the actual mechanics of the way 3.0 works?

[Elrundir]

(Just to reiterate, this is just my personal take on the matter. I'm not actually involved in the planning of Althanas 3.0 in any way :p)

As has always been the case in battle, someone dodging your attack is entirely up to that person. If they think they can dodge an attack that the judge feels they should in no way have been able to dodge, there are going to be serious penalties associated with that. (I don't know if there are avenues available to people who feel they are being unfairly powergamed by their opponents, it's been too long since I was last here, but that's another option.)

In other words, the effort you've put in is by no means wasted. I mean, your skill is still "legendary;" the system just doesn't legitimize what that actually means. There will not be an actual system in place that says "You're a master, he's an expert, therefore you're slightly better than he is." But at the same time, if your character has a history of being an exceptional shot with a throwing weapon, then an opponent who ignores that is doing themselves even more damage in the outcome of the battle than if they had just taken the dagger to the chest (in addition to powergaming being a Bad Thing in general, this has to do with Continuity--someone who ignores the established skill of his opponent is ignoring his continuity).

If someone wanted to ignore your Legendary status in a battle, they could do it whether we're in Althanas 3.0 or not. The penalties would be the same in both cases. From where I'm sitting, this rule change only means that RoG mods will no longer have to sit and think about whether to allow this character through when their skill level reads "master" and they think it should only be "expert" or lower.

[Enigmatic Immortal]

So then my question is, how can I tell if other people are legendary with something if i do not take three days to read their entire past threads to see how it progressed? Can I still place this in my profile, with no legitimate mechanic behind it? It's soul purpose so that only people don't have to research my threads just to avoid a quick throwing dagger?

[Elrundir]

Oh, yes, as I understand it, you're still free to put as many of those adjectives in your profile as you like. They just aren't going to be enforced as a basis for approval or rejection by the RoG staff.

[Atzar]

Since the topic has kinda drifted away from its original purpose, I'm going to hijack it for a moment with a question of my own. I play a magical character to the extreme - he doesn't have any noteworthy skills outside of "fuck target X with element Y".

I'm getting the sense - correct me if I'm wrong - that you guys are making some effort to crack down on magic a little bit in the upcoming update. Where does my character stand as far as that's concerned? Will I be over- or underpowered for my level according to the new rules?

[Letho]

The main trouble with this is that, as Max said, it's getting too complicated. The trouble with implementing systems like this is that you have to throw in exceptions and clarifications and additional rules to deal with all the possibilities that pop up, and for each one of those that you add, three more loopholes appear that someone will exploit at some point. Add in the confusion to players both new and old, and you'll wind up with a system that no one wants to even bother with. Even the previous way of using adjectives was somewhat unhelpful--it's just no fun figuring out whether a "master" swordsman at level 2 is better than your "expert" swordsman at level 4. It's even less fun if you just happened to forget to upgrade your pyromantic proficiency from "above average" to "expert" (or... master or whatever the heck comes next; see the problem?) in your level-up thread.

Powergaming isn't really something that needs to be prevented by putting in rules against it; if you powergame, you basically have no chance of winning a battle or getting a high score in a quest. That's enough of a safeguard, I think. The average Althanian will probably powergame once at most, realize that "winning the battle" doesn't win you the battle, and never bother with it again. At least, not if they want to gain any real experience and rewards in their time here.Even after all discussions and explanations, I still believe that all of this could be avoided with simple proficiency levels and some clarification, but maybe I'm just stubborn like that. It's not that hard to do, really, since such a system is already in place and all it needs is a bit of updating. Which is not surprising since it kind of came to life on its own, sort of a mutated byproduct of the gaming aspect of the site. But isn't that really telling us something? There are no established skill levels on Althanas, yet over time we all more or less started using ways to gauge it. And the fact that the adjectives are relatively meaningless without something to compare them to can be fixed by actually establishing something to compare it to, a fixed scale of sorts. I think that removing that limit will cause us more trouble than good, in all honesty, because the powergaming line will be even more blurry than before and judges will not catch it all. Can every judge really gauge with absolute precision every aspect of every skill in every thread? Hardly.

It's great in theory, this idea that skill levels are irrelevant, and I really hope it works, but I'm still going to invest some money into a good umbrella for when the shitstorm eventually hits.

[Saxon]

Proficiencies would be.. an interesting investment. But I can't say how much use I'll make out of the semantics change. It really doesn't make much of a difference to me if my character is legendary or not at something, because like you said, the word itself is meaningless.

All the other changes being announced so far I have some sort of stake in or think I'd enjoy.. but this ability thing.. meh. It just seems like a really minute, trivial change, honestly and I cannot really see how when implemented I can best use it.

And before I get another example shoved down my face, I've read most of them. It doesn't change the fact that changing the word of something while judging it with the same scrutiny doesn't really mean anything if there is no system behind it to give it any intrinsic value. I'd give some sort of metaphor to illustrate it, but I'm very certain that most of you would over analyze it anyway. But whatever, maybe I'll kick it off with Saxon as the legendary cake baker. And kill everyone else who attempts to take the title away from me. That ought to give it some meaning. =P

By the by, I've already accepted that this is turning from a workshop into a game, and I was one of the folks who favored the former more then the latter by far. However, this will be easier to manage, write rules for and hold people accountable with. But if we're making the change, like Letho says, wouldn't it be reasonable then to look into some sort of system to back up words like legendary or adept that are essentially just currency without value?

[Visla Eraclaire]

Since the topic has kinda drifted away from its original purpose, I'm going to hijack it for a moment with a question of my own. I play a magical character to the extreme - he doesn't have any noteworthy skills outside of "fuck target X with element Y".

I'm getting the sense - correct me if I'm wrong - that you guys are making some effort to crack down on magic a little bit in the upcoming update. Where does my character stand as far as that's concerned? Will I be over- or underpowered for my level according to the new rules?

I think the solution for magic characters is to make vaguer abilities.

Everything you do counts as an "ability" whereas the ability to swing a sword is just "knowledge"

So, a sword user can get stronger or faster and everything they do is stronger. The solution is to increase "magic power" or some other vague bullshitty stat and make all your spell areas more vague rather than discrete spells.

Or do the rayse thing and ignore all this nonsense and keep writing. It's not worth worrying about.

[Scrotus]

Atzar, check out Caden Law's level one profile and any of his going past that. His set up of magic is a pretty good example and so is Visla's above me. Just be more vague.

[Atzar]

I think the solution for magic characters is to make vaguer abilities.

Everything you do counts as an "ability" whereas the ability to swing a sword is just "knowledge"

So, a sword user can get stronger or faster and everything they do is stronger. The solution is to increase "magic power" or some other vague bullshitty stat and make all your spell areas more vague rather than discrete spells.

Or do the rayse thing and ignore all this nonsense and keep writing. It's not worth worrying about.

So what's to stop me from taking this to the extreme? Make 'magic power' my only ability, toss all the separate elements under knowledge, and just use my one ridiculously powerful ability to skullfuck anything that moves with the medium of my choice. I could even claim that it's all one spell, to circumvent the 'all spells count as abilities' bit.

I don't know. This makes me even more convinced that this system is going to be easy to exploit. You'll have crazy-fast jackasses with daggers doing the Uttam on your ass, swinging their little piece of shit 'at your head, shoulders, arms, legs and pretty much everywhere' or whatever the hell he said. Only this time, it'll be semi-legitimate.

Label me 'skeptical' on this whole thing. I love the spirit of the idea - being able to make a new character other than 'little nobody trying to find his way in the big, bad world' is an excellent thought and one that I fully support. I just think that this system isn't the answer.

[Scrotus]

Well like was stated throughout this thread prior to your question, and Elrundir said it better than I can, there will still be powergaming. The system isn't going to nullify that, and if a judge feels you or your opponent are powergaming, he'll dock the party at fault.

So if a level zero is going around "skullfucking" his veteran foes, it's probably best to assume they'll get docked.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what 3.0 has in store for us, but until then this thread has given me a pretty good idea.

[Hysteria]

Now my question: If I place legendary in my profile, can i assume that because of the title it will be HARDER to come up with an IC reason to block said attack? I'm not saying that because I'm legendary a level 0 can't block me, but I do want it to be a feat that would be considered harder.

I think it purely depends on your body statistics. In fact, I think nearly every skill you have becomes meaningless :/

Although you can just invest it all into body skills, Speed, Agility, etc. Maybe also some boosting skills for those attributes? That would give you the same effect.

[Visla Eraclaire]

This system is going to be as easy to exploit as any vague BS system based on discretion, which is what we're always going to have. Stop worrying about exploitation. It's going to happen no matter what system there is. The only thing that can stop it is a lack of retardation on the part of those overseeing the system and a lack of douchebaggery on the part of those making the profiles. Neither of these will happen, much less both.

Just write and don't worry about the bullshit. Or if this "game rule" stuff spoils it for you, just don't write at all. Either way, it isn't worth spending time thinking about this stuff.

[Atzar]

I was wrong. I assumed that magic characters were getting nerfed to an extent. Now it sounds like they're getting more powerful.

With swordfighting, there are several factors that affect the outcome - relative strength, relative speed, coordination, precision, the make and material of weaponry, etc. Theoretically, you'd have to be adept in all of those (and maybe more) to really be an outstanding swordsman - a strong, fast swordsman who isn't particularly precise or coordinated could be colored as a brute who uses a blade like a club and dealt with accordingly.

With magic, however, there's really only one: Visla's 'magic power' ability. The strength and speed of the attack both fall under that. Coordination and precision are mental, rather than physical - therefore they can be lumped under 'knowledge'. Spell variations can easily be explained away as 'knowledge', with only magic power determining what you can accomplish with your power. There's no real material factors like there are in physical combat. So, while physical fighters have to level up several different skills at once as they progress, I only have to upgrade one and can therefore get stronger faster.

[Visla Eraclaire]

One minute we're nerfed next minute we're supermen.

Do you try to "win" conversations? Or parties? Christ, this thing really isn't a goddamned MMO, there aren't fucking nerfs and buffs.

[Atzar]

One minute we're nerfed next minute we're supermen.

Do you try to "win" conversations? Or parties? Christ, this thing really isn't a goddamned MMO, there aren't fucking nerfs and buffs.

Forgive my choice of words, then. Would you have preferred 'weakened'? 'Sapped'? 'Bitchified'? Does it even matter?

The point is that, as far as I understand this new system, it is easier to exploit - especially for magic-based characters. You can claim that any system will have exploits and people willing to use them, but that's not an excuse to implement a system that's easier to beat than the old one. The idea should be to create some semblance of equality among characters of an equal level, and this system is going to move away from that.

[Visla Eraclaire]

The fact that something is a bad idea also isn't an excuse to care about it.

You think you're going to stop 3.0? Good luck little man. Savor the void.

[Scrotus]

This thread has spun in more circles than a merry-go-round.

Atzar, I think you should wait until we actually know what 3.0 will bring before you jump to conclusions and keep restating them over and over and over again. We got your point, buddy.

[Atzar]

This thread has spun in more circles than a merry-go-round.

Atzar, I think you should wait until we actually know what 3.0 will bring before you jump to conclusions and keep restating them over and over and over again. We got your point, buddy.

Right. I shouldn't defend my point of view. Gotcha.

Thanks for trolling.

EDIT: And as far as I see it, I haven't jumped to any conclusions. I've left plenty of room for people who know more than me to jump in and tell me that I'm wrong. In the meantime, since I don't have the access to contribute to the project directly, the only thing I can do is point out my concerns based on the information I've been given.

[Max Dirks]

I'll show you guys something I showed the moderators during our discussion.

Here's what the original Althanas rules said regarding skills/abilities:

"Choosing Skills and Spells: You may choose several skills for your character to start out with. Describe them as best you can, but remember that you're a Level 0 character, and that your skills shouldn't be very powerful and in some cases, barely developed. If you want a semi-powerful skill when you start out, a good idea might be to limit your character to just one beginning skill. You can always add more later when you level up."

Notice there is no distinction between skills and abilities. Further, approval of said skills/abilities was based almost purely on moderator discretion (which is changing, but no one seems to have a problem with this part of the change . This is sad because THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART). Accompanying this definition was the definition of powergaming:

"Powergaming is when your character performs an action that is above their abilities, or performs some sort of special move or spell that is not in their profile, usually leaving the other character defenseless against the attack. Bunnying is when you control another player’s character without getting permission to do so."

There are two parts of powergaming: unfairness and level breaking. What happened was the staff stopped heavily enforcing the unfairness portion of the rules in judgments. In turn, the ROG started a vague "skill" progression model to help compensate for the lack of enforcement in the judgments. Welcome to our current mess.

So basically I've taken the best parts of each system and combined them into the most efficient ROG model.

In profiles, skills that relate to knowledge are not moderated. This includes your swordsmanship, accuracy, cooking, sewing, singing skills, etc. The reason we aren't moderating knowledge is threefold: (1) It limits creativity, forcing characters to essentially be children; (2) Knowledge is subjective. On Althanas, we grade primarily based on writing, not on the knowledge of the writer. Thus it makes no sense to grade based on the knowledge of the character (unless you play a bumbling idiot who suddenly becomes smart, etc.); (3) Adding a skill progression chart overly complicates a system in which it is not necessary. Conversely, abilities, or actions, are all moderated. If you control the element fire, in your profile we'll ask exactly what you can do with fire in 3.0. Similarly, if you use a sword, we'll ask you what kind it is, what is it made of, how strong and fast are you when using it. This means you can put "masterswordsman: knows a variety of different tactics for swordplay" into your profile, but it doesn't mean much when your character cannot physically complete the tactics against a stronger and faster opponent.

Skills are still being moderated, but not in the ROG. It will be the responsibility of the judges to look for powergaming in threads. Most battles now a days are collaborative, but there are occasional competitive individual bouts. That is where we'll look the most into it. If you are a "masterswordsman" but constantly perry someone far stronger and faster, you'll likely lose points for being unrealistic.

Make sense naysayers? I realize everyone won't be happy with this, but I assure you it will be fair, as both staffers will work in congruence with one another to ensure it.

[Atzar]

So basically I've taken the best parts of each system and combined them into the most efficient ROG model.

In profiles, skills that relate to knowledge are not moderated. This includes your swordsmanship, accuracy, cooking, sewing, singing skills, etc. The reason we aren't moderating knowledge is threefold: (1) It limits creativity, forcing characters to essentially be children; (2) Knowledge is subjective. On Althanas, we grade primarily based on writing, not on the knowledge of the writer. Thus it makes no sense to grade based on the knowledge of the character (unless you play a bumbling idiot who suddenly becomes smart, etc.); (3) Adding a skill progression chart overly complicates a system in which it is not necessary. Conversely, abilities, or actions, are all moderated. If you control the element fire, in your profile we'll ask exactly what you can do with fire in 3.0. Similarly, if you use a sword, we'll ask you what kind it is, what is it made of, how strong and fast are you when using it. This means you can put "masterswordsman: knows a variety of different tactics for swordplay" into your profile, but it doesn't mean much when your character cannot physically complete the tactics against a stronger and faster opponent.

Skills are still being moderated, but not in the ROG. It will be the responsibility of the judges to look for powergaming in threads. Most battles now a days are collaborative, but there are occasional competitive individual bouts. That is where we'll look the most into it. If you are a "masterswordsman" but constantly perry someone far stronger and faster, you'll likely lose points for being unrealistic.

Make sense naysayers? I realize everyone won't be happy with this, but I assure you it will be fair, as both staffers will work in congruence with one another to ensure it.

Alright. It sounds like the whole "using the skill 'magic power' and then throwing all of its applications into knowledge" won't fly. That's good.

In that case, we return to my initial thought. Take my character, for example. Under the 3.0 rules, have I provided enough detail for how my character uses the elements? Under the 3.0 rules, am I at a good level of power for a level 4 magic-based character - not over- or underpowered? Will there be any sort of guidelines regarding how much you're allowed to improve at levelup, or will it just be shot-in-the-dark guesswork and arbitrary decisions like it is now?

Feel free to make an example of my character. I think levelups are probably the vaguest part of the site, and if Atzar can help you add more definition to the process then I'm more than willing to help out.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Further, approval of said skills/abilities was based almost purely on moderator discretion (which is changing, but no one seems to have a problem with this part of the change . This is sad because THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART).

What's it based on if not discretion? I dare you to quantify this bullshit.

[Duffy]

I think it boils down to:

Duffy has a legendary understanding of dance, drama and theatre (for example).

He is only Above Average in it's application and practice though.

If Atzar has a theoretical knowledge of fire thematical spells, he might know and recognise it's use and the mechanics behind it, but only have an Adept ability for actually casting that type of spell.

I didn't really see the distinction before, but now I do.

I know in the 'real world' how to build a nuclear bomb - this doesn't mean that, given the equipment, I'd actually be able to DO it on the other hand.

[Silence Sei]

So I sent you all the supplies for nothing?

[Max Dirks]

Excuse my brevity as I should be listening to the presentation. All characters will be grandfathered to an extent. If, on your next update, your character is deemed too powerful for the level you will not be granted any abilities until you catch up. Some characters will be toned down immediately following 3.0s release. Does that answer your questions?

[Jack Frost]

Alright I get the explanation. Will this same rule be applied to later character updates?

[Christoph]

Seems like you're making the main obstacle for new members even more complicated than it needs to be, but I'm willing to wait and see it in action as, let's be honest, it's hard to get much worse than the current situation.

[Jack Frost]

Well, Sei could randomly combust, letho, task, and Max could vanish and leave the site without any sort of guidance...

[Christoph]

As I said, things can't get much worse. :p

[Silence Sei]

As I said, things can't get much worse. :p

We could have you head features again...

OH! He did not go there yes he did!

Buddha's all up in yo grill!

[Christoph]

Oh snap.

[/spam]

[Atzar]

ITT, unfunny people think they're funny.