Althanas 3.0 - Discussion

[Atzar]

Since the posted changes (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=22089) have ventured beyond the rubric now, I think this topic needs its own thread.

On the topic of the rubric: as I noted elsewhere, I like the changes in general. In particular, I approve of the removal of the 'Technique' category, and I'm wary of how judges will treat 'Creativity' - it could easily be abused as a second Wild Card. I've never liked the Continuity category personally, but I can live with it.

On the topic of the RoG changes: assuming that descriptions will be given of each of the power levels upon 3.0's release, I like that you're devising a system to determine the power level of an ability. I'm also hoping that rough guidelines will be provided for all levels, so that I know how much I should be asking for when I level. You've suggested that you're providing both, so I'm optimistic on this front.

Having said that, I don't like a lot of the other changes you've suggested. I really don't like anything about the Retirement/Reincarnation system, for example. To begin with, I don't like that you're lowering the amount of EXP given to reincarnated characters - I feel like more than the current 50% should be given, not less. You're essentially sacrificing a character in which you've invested a lot of time, thought and energy, so that you can't write with that character on Althanas again as a PC. That's a hefty price, and I can't really imagine any scenario in which I'd feel compelled to do this. As an alternative, I'd suggest working with levels instead of EXP amounts - perhaps a reincarnated character starts out 3 levels below his ancestor. Swapping out low-level characters remains a dumb move (and it should), but my level 10 trades out for a level 7 instead of a 4-5 - a fairly significant difference.

Retirement seems like an attempt to provide an ultimate goal for characters, but the perks you've outlined are either redundant or useless. The 'special access' for retired characters won't amount to much - forums need people to be entertaining, and characters at those levels will be rare. Lornius would remain a ghost town for the foreseeable future. The special attention in the Althanas Wiki seems redundant at that point, since a character that high in level will likely be all over Althanas canon anyway.

The level cap feels arbitrary and unneeded. It seems like you stuck it in just to prop up the Althanas Points and Retirement systems. AP doesn't need it and will likely do fine on its own; the concept of Retirement is Fool's Gold with or without it. Honestly, if I put in enough time to hit level 16, I think I should be able to level without shelling out AP for it (unless the price is small, in which case... why have it at all?)

I'll end my thoughts there for now. Since 3.0 is a big deal, I encourage everybody who writes on the site to take a minute to read over the changes and voice their own thoughts. In the meantime, I eagerly await posts, either by members in this thread or by Dirks in the one linked up top.

[Saxon]

The level cap feels arbitrary and unneeded. It seems like you stuck it in just to prop up the Althanas Points and Retirement systems. AP doesn't need it and will likely do fine on its own; the concept of Retirement is Fool's Gold with or without it. Honestly, if I put in enough time to hit level 16, I think I should be able to level without shelling out AP for it (unless the price is small, in which case... why have it at all?)

I'm not too worried about the level cap in that I am certain that I will either be long dead or have left before I ever get to the point where I need to consider it. So I feel that arguing about it for the sake of arguing is a waste of my time. I'll throw you the bone.


On the topic of the rubric: as I noted elsewhere, I like the changes in general. In particular, I approve of the removal of the 'Technique' category, and I'm wary of how judges will treat 'Creativity' - it could easily be abused as a second Wild Card. I've never liked the Continuity category personally, but I can live with it.

Honestly, I'm disappointed with how they changed the rubric. It seems more of a mash of battle/quests with the mission of trying to root out and dissuade power gamers at the sacrifice of everything else. I don't believe in objectivity in judging in that nobody I've seen here outside of maybe three people can stand to judge without adding their own bias to it, and I'm a victim of that as well, so I don't want to hear about it from the People of The Tool Shed.

I think more effort should have been taken into looking into the option of segregating rubrics for battles and quests, instead of having one rubric attempt to deal with both. There's just too many elements involved that the rubric as it stands is a clusterfuck, and it doesn't really seem to achieve anything at all other then giving a judge more gray area to manuever in, which is bad for everybody.

As for the changes made. They kept Continuity, and got rid or relabeled two of the vital parts of the rubric, Action and Dialogue. I also really don't see the sense of Strategy in the context of a quest/story. But, I'll find it entertaining to watch the other judges try and figure it out. That is until they start fucking with my shit. The renaming of it was douchey, though. Action Jackson wants Action back. As is. And I'll post a fucking petition about it if I have to.

Also, Wildcard (see; what the fuck?).


Having said that, I don't like a lot of the other changes you've suggested.

Me neither.


I really don't like anything about the Retirement/Reincarnation system, for example. To begin with, I don't like that you're lowering the amount of EXP given to reincarnated characters - I feel like more than the current 50% should be given, not less. You're essentially sacrificing a character in which you've invested a lot of time, thought and energy, so that you can't write with that character on Althanas again as a PC. That's a hefty price, and I can't really imagine any scenario in which I'd feel compelled to do this. As an alternative, I'd suggest working with levels instead of EXP amounts - perhaps a reincarnated character starts out 3 levels below his ancestor. Swapping out low-level characters remains a dumb move (and it should), but my level 10 trades out for a level 7 instead of a 4-5 - a fairly significant difference.

Retirement seems like an attempt to provide an ultimate goal for characters, but the perks you've outlined are either redundant or useless. The 'special access' for retired characters won't amount to much - forums need people to be entertaining, and characters at those levels will be rare. Lornius would remain a ghost town for the foreseeable future. The special attention in the Althanas Wiki seems redundant at that point, since a character that high in level will likely be all over Althanas canon anyway.

Retirement is a copout, and one that I don't entirely care about. I'm pretty sure if I can get the character I'm using right now to that kind of level, I'd probably keep writing with him. But, as it stands, leveling means an advancement in my abilities (maybe) and gives me more stuff to use when I write. Other then that, every time I level up, it just means I'm one step closer to kicking Letho in the dick and getting away with it.


On the topic of the RoG changes: assuming that descriptions will be given of each of the power levels upon 3.0's release, I like that you're devising a system to determine the power level of an ability. I'm also hoping that rough guidelines will be provided for all levels, so that I know how much I should be asking for when I level. You've suggested that you're providing both, so I'm optimistic on this front.

I actually changed my opinion from being vehemently opposed to the changes in the RoG to optimistically apathetic to it after I had a chat with a friend about an hour ago. Basically, I'm too small to matter and none of my characters do anything that is worth targeting by the Greeting Gestapo. So, while other more powerful people are being thoroughly raped through background checks and hefty penalities levied against them for the newest-shoot-to-kill-if-he's-seen-littering ordinances that are passed every quarter, I don't have much to worry about.

In fact, I applaud this raising of the bar in the sense of literary socialism. Let's fight the power by bringing them down to our level, comrades!

Other then that, I'm anticipating more changes. The only one I can see myself esctatic about right now is the fact that they're making leveling easier so us fat kids can start making it over the bars. However, as it stands, I'm starting to see the waiting line to becoming high level paved over into an express lane. But, what's at the end of that line? Letho with a new broomhandle and a witty retort before, during and while he sodimizes your character.

Hrm, while I can take solace in the fact I'm not going to be immediately deflowered, I think I should still invest in some KY and a condom. Maybe if I get a red wig, he'll let me get by with that gun.

[Hysteria]

Having said that, I don't like a lot of the other changes you've suggested. I really don't like anything about the Retirement/Reincarnation system, for example. To begin with, I don't like that you're lowering the amount of EXP given to reincarnated characters - I feel like more than the current 50% should be given, not less. You're essentially sacrificing a character in which you've invested a lot of time, thought and energy, so that you can't write with that character on Althanas again as a PC.

50% of a level 15 character would get you a level 10 character, which isn't too bad. It also sounds like the difference between a lvl 10 and lvl 15 wouldn't be that great (or at least much less than a lvl 10 and lvl 5).

I agree with Saxon though about retirement, if I got to lvl 15, i'd pull down my pants and wave my lvled up genitals at the newbies rather than retire. But then I doubt I'd get that far anyway.

[Duffy]

If anything, it should encourage people to either tempo their writing and character development, or encourage them to branch out into other characters, other possibilities, and other avenues of story crafting.

There are plenty of options, heavens, I imagine some people will ressurect their high level characters as women, to play out alternative histories or perhaps switch them to 'the other side', the possibilities of sticking with one name but a thousand lives are endless!

[Elrundir]

The thing I don't like about the RoG changes is how... complicated it's all getting. Average skill levels and bell curves and charts and tables... I mean, I can definitely see where it's all coming from (i.e., an attempt to standardize things), but at the same time it's adding a lot of complication to the mix that isn't going to help people. Not just in the RoG (though it will probably be quite a burden on new users, and those who have to figure out how their characters can conform with this system), but in battles as well. I mean, if I have "above average" fire magic, what does that mean? And if I'm fighting someone who has some "somewhat strong" sword skills, how do those match up? It would be quite literally like comparing apples to oranges. The only practical value I can see in it is if two people with fire magic are fighting each other using that skill. Standardization is all well and good, but it's not very useful if it's difficult to practically apply and enforce.

My other concern is that I once saw Max say changes to the RoG were (in part) intended to attract and keep new players, but I'm not sure I can see this doing that. I would think that new users will be more excited about joining if they can get past the registration phase easily; submitting a character and having him told that his abilities average out to be too high for a level zero (and then he decides to lower his character's swordsmanship a little, and you tell him "Sorry that's a skill not an ability so it doesn't count") is only going to make things worse.

I agree about the level cap. That started the whole post on a bad note for me. I mean, like Saxon, I'll probably be rotting in the ground long before I come anywhere close to level 15, but the system still seems silly. Why put a cap in the first place? It feels like it's just to introduce a use for these points, whatever they are (it's the first I've heard of them, anyway), like Atzar said.

Don't have much to say about the rubric. I'm not even sure the current one is the same as the one that was used last time I was active on the site, so I just don't know.

[Hysteria]

Not just in the RoG (though it will probably be quite a burden on new users, and those who have to figure out how their characters can conform with this system), but in battles as well. I mean, if I have "above average" fire magic, what does that mean? And if I'm fighting someone who has some "somewhat strong" sword skills, how do those match up? It would be quite literally like comparing apples to oranges. The only practical value I can see in it is if two people with fire magic are fighting each other using that skill. Standardization is all well and good, but it's not very useful if it's difficult to practically apply and enforce.

Those terms only apply to abilities which have a 'direct effect' on other players. Such as throwing fire, being really fast, shooting lasers from your eyes, etc. Not things that are deemed to be, for a lack of a better phrase, a conglomeration of secondary effects from skills, such as swordfighting (which is mediated by speed, strength, etc). I think untill those terms are defined, there is not much to go on as to the practicality of each term.


My other concern is that I once saw Max say changes to the RoG were (in part) intended to attract and keep new players, but I'm not sure I can see this doing that. I would think that new users will be more excited about joining if they can get past the registration phase easily; submitting a character and having him told that his abilities average out to be too high for a level zero (and then he decides to lower his character's swordsmanship a little, and you tell him "Sorry that's a skill not an ability so it doesn't count") is only going to make things worse.

I think the current system is much harder, there are no guidlines for how strong a character can be, no definitions for the terms that most people use (average, above average, etc), no overall level strength for characters to follow and so on. This system is more concrete and easier to digest than the current one in my opinion.

[Max Dirks]

I'll post a few comments before I have to jump on the plane. No one has gotten to level 15 in 10 years of playing. The "ability progression chart" is incredibly easy to use. While it may sound complicated (you did ask for full disclosure on what's happening) it will speed up and standardize the RoG. Elundir, you are not going to use the terms "above average fire ability." If you do, you won't be approved. You'll tell us exactly what your character can do with fire, what its physical characteristics are (a 10 ft fireball, for example), and what its affects are. We will then assign it a power level. Also, in case you weren't paying attention, we don't moderate things like swordskills in the RoG anymore.

That's all I have time for now.

[Rayse Valentino]

Good things:

-Ability progression chart. I'd thank Ataraxis for that. People are focusing on this level cap thing that doesn't really even concern them as they'll never get there, but the rest of the RoG changes look promising.

-AP points to spend on larger PM boxes, specifically. Can I just spend my would-be points to grab this from the future? Thanks.

-Special forum for elite members. I'd like to be able to wave my dick around in a very undignified fashion as fast as possible.

Bad things:

-The Rubric. The general trend of the forum implies we need two rubrics: One for battles, one for quests. Until you provide this, people will be pointing out the inadequacies of the rubric to in both types of threads until the end of time. Get with the times, old man. It wouldn't even be that hard to make.

-Everything about retiring. Dumb, unneeded. I will bet you everything I have that nobody at level 15 is ever going to 'retire' their character in a million billion years. You're introducing legislation that affects NO ONE. Take it back to 50%, please. We've had maybe a handful of people reincarnate, don't crank that already abysmal number down to zero. With this new change, I assure you, nobody will EVER reincarnate their characters again. Also, I have to retire my shit to get all these little wiki, AP perks or whatever? That's stupid? I have to STOP playing to get the PERKS of PLAYING? That's like saying I can get the biggest, baddest purps in the world in WoW but I'd have to be locked out of all instances forever. It's mindbogglingly dumb and I can't imagine what's went through your head when you wrote it.

[Saxon]

I would think that new users will be more excited about joining if they can get past the registration phase easily; submitting a character and having him told that his abilities average out to be too high for a level zero (and then he decides to lower his character's swordsmanship a little, and you tell him "Sorry that's a skill not an ability so it doesn't count") is only going to make things worse.

This.

I think it would be better served if the RoG had less then more. I also actually wonder how many newbies we turn away with the registration system we have now and how many more when 3.0 comes down over our heads. Keep it simple, stupids. Less regulation, more liberty. More help, less wisecracks. Simplification over complication. And if you aren't going to do it for us, and not for me, or even yourselves, do it for Jack here. He doesn't need deflowered! Friends don't let friends get raped by Letho.


-Special forum for elite members. I'd like to be able to wave my dick around in a very undignified fashion as fast as possible.


Hmm, yes, quite. And we can discuss how we shall wear our cocks while waving them at the lower people. The mud people.

[Elrundir]

Also, in case you weren't paying attention, we don't moderate things like swordskills in the RoG anymore.
Yes, I do know that, thank you. When I say "sword skills," I mean precisely that: skills (or abilities or whatever) involving a sword. For the actual ability to fight with a sword I would have said something like swordsmanship (the regulation of which, or lack thereof, is an entirely different issue that I wasn't talking about).

[Saxon]

The "ability progression chart" is incredibly easy to use. While it may sound complicated (you did ask for full disclosure on what's happening) it will speed up and standardize the RoG. Elundir, you are not going to use the terms "above average fire ability." If you do, you won't be approved. You'll tell us exactly what your character can do with fire, what its physical characteristics are (a 10 ft fireball, for example), and what its affects are. We will then assign it a power level.

Yeah, no. That sounds incredibly stupid in trying to give you an absolutist definition in each and every spell so you can label it. I think I'd avoid making spells on this account just because of that, but I'm pretty sure you're going to extend this to all abilities anyway. Wow, I didn't think it was possible, but you made the RoG even more douchey.


Also, in case you weren't paying attention, we don't moderate things like swordskills in the RoG anymore.

That means nothing. You'll rape our abilities and squeeze any form of sophistication out of it by making it generic in the sense you have to in order for the Gestapo to use their new handy-dandy labeling gun. Oh, I mean labeling mechanism. But, in the trade-off, my character can learn anything he wants.

Wow! I suppose I better make Saxon an Iron Chef at baking knowledge, but GOD HELP ME if I try to get by you with a skill that allows me to make cakes without telling you the size, shape, time necessary for baking, and nourishment provided by my delicious desserts first!

[Godhand]

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk106/wsowen02/AndHereWeGo-1.gif

[Dissinger]

I'll post a few comments before I have to jump on the plane. No one has gotten to level 15 in 10 years of playing. The "ability progression chart" is incredibly easy to use. While it may sound complicated (you did ask for full disclosure on what's happening) it will speed up and standardize the RoG. Elundir, you are not going to use the terms "above average fire ability." If you do, you won't be approved. You'll tell us exactly what your character can do with fire, what its physical characteristics are (a 10 ft fireball, for example), and what its affects are. We will then assign it a power level. Also, in case you weren't paying attention, we don't moderate things like swordskills in the RoG anymore.

That's all I have time for now.

Yeah Dirks...about that whole level cap thing...

You mean to tell me, I can't gain any power or do anything once I hit this cap? Am I literally going to be stonewalled from seth getting any stronger, just because under my name is the numbers 1 and 5?

EDIT: I haven't seen a godhand troll fail in awhile!

[Revenant]

Yeah Dirks...about that whole level cap thing...

You mean to tell me, I can't gain any power or do anything once I hit this cap? Am I literally going to be stonewalled from seth getting any stronger, just because under my name is the numbers 1 and 5?

It was pointed out that you CAN get a level extension over the cap using your shiny Althanas Points or whatever they are.

[Tainted Bushido]

It was pointed out that you CAN get a level extension over the cap using your shiny Althanas Points or whatever they are.

I haven't seen anything on that anywhere? Where'd you dig that up Rev?

[Allistia Eraclaire]

I'm not sure whether the chart helps anything. Maybe it does, because people are helped by labels, but the method for assigning a label to an ability is the real hard part. It's what we're struggling with in the RoG right now and hiding it behind a label isn't going to solve it.

The question "How strong is this ability?" has a lot of granularity. It's hard enough to balance abilities when they're defined in words rather than numbers. Balancing different types of abilities, keeping the determinations consistent from profile to profile, and really thinking through the implications of different abilities is going to be the real problem.

I hope mods are prepared to address those issues and not slap up these labels and call it good.


EDIT: Pat, it's here (http://www.althanas.com/world/showpost.php?p=178182&postcount=3).


A cap at level 15. We'll have a way for your to purchase 5 extra levels (called level breaking) by utilizing your Althanas Points.

There's still a cap. It's unclear whether you buy the levels directly or buy the privilege to gain them. Either way, it seems silly to me. Just let crazy people keep leveling. No sense building a system for them when effort could be spent on systems that affect everyone.

[BlackAndBlueEyes]

I don't mean to be a dick, but...

in·nate
   /ɪˈneɪt, ˈɪneɪt/ Show Spelled[ih-neyt, in-eyt] Show IPA
–adjective
1. existing in one from birth; inborn; native: innate musical talent.
2. inherent in the essential character of something: an innate defect in the hypothesis.
3. originating in or arising from the intellect or the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience: an innate knowledge of good and evil.

Might I suggest you change that last tier to "unparalleled" or something? Or, hey, personally I'd go with a scale of 1-10 like I see some occasional character profiles already using.

[Christoph]

Well, I respect the staff's dedication to exacerbating the site's known member-retention problems. The RoG system is too complicated and not user friendly? Let's fix it by adding more intricate, unforgiving rules and regulations until we might as well print out rulebooks ala D&D to go with it. People like forum roleplaying because it's NOT so rules-focused. And finally, while I like more freedom for knowledge-related abilities, I don't think swordsmanship was a good example. Having a technical knowledge of swordsmanship is far from the same thing as being a good swordsman. Aside from basic strength and speed, muscle memory and trained reflexes are very important. I like that you're trying to give more freedom, but you're still doing it wrong.

The retirement and reincarnation rules are, as has been stated already, really stupid. The reincarnation 50% was already horrible, further preventing bored players from recycling a character to make one that they might have more fun with. Now you want to put it down even lower? Ridiculous. You should make the reincarnation rule 75% instead. Then maybe people might use it.

I don't hate the rubric, and I don't think we need one of quests and one for battles (though I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it, either). I don't particularly like it, either. It bares too much evidence of the worst results of committee decisions -- trying to please a number of contradictory visions. Since this is important, I'll dissect it by category.


Story: I like this category. It makes sense. That is all. If anything, I would weight it more heavily (15 points instead of 10, perhaps), because it encompasses more.

Setting: It's fine, though I would add a couple things to it (explained below in Continuity).

Continuity: I have several problems with this category. First, its name does not match its content. That is probably because you jumbled so many different criteria together that it defies a single classification. You have things that belong in setting, and others that belong in the old Action. In short, I don't think we need this category at all (more on this later).

Creativity: God, where to even begin. For me, and it would seem for others as well, this category is just another Wildcard, only worse. It's another category where even the best-meaning judges will be tempted to insert their personal biases. This category should be removed completely. Creativity in general should be handled on a per-category basis. IE: creative characterization would affect character categories, and creative settings would influence the Setting category, etc.

Character: I'm not entirely sure what this is, since there IS no "character" category currently. I'm assuming it to be essentially what Persona currently is. If so, I guess that's fine.

Interaction: I'm generally okay with this category, though I think it could use a little tweaking and clarification. If the intention is to combine the more "character-oriented" parts of action (IE: do the actions make sense for the character) and dialogue, with more emphasis on communication in general, then I approve. As with Story, I would weight it at 15 instead of 10 because it encompasses a wider range of criteria than other categories.

Strategy: I think this category should be changed to "Realism" and also encompass issues of powergaming and how, well, realistic everything is. I realize that this is a fantasy setting, but to that I would say that realism is even MORE important in a fantasy setting.

Mechanics: Fine. I'm assuming it's more or less the same as the current mechanics.

Technique: It's not there. Bring it back. The fact that members were penalized for having a "unique style", as you put it is not the fault of the Technique category, but rather that of the judges (or the member him/herself, as a "unique" style is not necessarily a good one). The quality with which the writer crafts his prose is just as important as the message he attempts to present.

Clarity: Fine.

Wildcard: I'm generally okay with it.

And that's about it. That should leave nine categories, but a total of 100 points.

[Max Dirks]

He probably got it from the moderator forums where everything has been posted for discussion for days. I figured as a moderator maybe you'd periodically choose to look there.

[Duffy]

Does anyone have a ten point tier with more appropriate names, or descriptors/generic examples to give guidance to new players in terms of what's appropriate for X or Y?

[Rayse Valentino]

Yeah, I do (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=20576) Check page 3 (http://www.althanas.com/world/showpost.php?p=161570&postcount=24) for specific names.

[Jack Frost]

Member retention won't be solved by RoG changes or rubric changes. Member retention is a huge problem we have to tackle first. Perhaps with 3.0 we should give althanas a nice fresh coat of paint and add a little glitter. Spruce it up. I know we have like 50 styles, just make something more showy, surely we can find someone with the skill.

[BlackAndBlueEyes]

Member retention won't be solved by RoG changes or rubric changes. Member retention is a huge problem we have to tackle first. Perhaps with 3.0 we should give althanas a nice fresh coat of paint and add a little glitter. Spruce it up. I know we have like 50 styles, just make something more showy, surely we can find someone with the skill.

Member retention has nothing to do with the look of the site, Frost. I'd use an analogy with women and relationships to demonstrate my point, but you're probably too young for it.

You reel 'em in with a low barrier of entry with simplified rules and such, promising an easy-to-understand game and a fun time. You keep them around by having a friendly, receptive community (which is impossible on the Internet, I know) that is focused on making that person a better writer.

That being said, I've always found the extensive rubric to be a little silly. Focusing on getting the highest score possible on someone else's terms took the fun out of writing threads here for me really quickly. If I were running the show, I'd simplify the judging rubric into six categories. Who, what, when, where, why, and how. These are the six things every writer needs to focus on to tell a good story.

Another thing I'd do is remove technique altogether. If someone loses a battle by one point because they forgot a comma or two, that's not exactly fair. That, and we've got some pretty terrible writers who float in every now and again. If they submit a thread and get torn apart even though they were having fun, they're likely to not return. Take technique out, but make it mandatory for judges to point out in a notes section or something things they writer could do to improve their writing. Some creative, trolling-free criticism as opposed to a "Technique - 2. Learn to English." would do wonders to keep them coming back for more.

[SirArtemis]

You reel 'em in with a low barrier of entry with simplified rules and such, promising an easy-to-understand game and a fun time. You keep them around by having a friendly, receptive community (which is impossible on the Internet, I know) that is focused on making that person a better writer.

The only time I've seen a unanimously receptive community is a forum for shaving...

[BlackAndBlueEyes]

The only time I've seen a unanimously receptive community is a forum for shaving...

I'm on a couple radio drama/voice acting forums; one's 100% drama free, while the other has maybe two jerks on it. It is possible on creativity-driven forums, but here that's still asking for a lot.

[Jack Frost]

I had a longer post, that addressed the fact that our standards were too high, but it seems like every time I put a shit ton of thought into any input I get trolled to death. I'll put the short version instead. Not everyone is as into role plying as us. Hell the only reason I stick around is out of the necessity to write and get feedback. Had there been other options I might have jumped ship, but there aren't.

Perhaps we should lower the bar just a little bit. Lets not drop to where we get....

*john smiled* how are you?

As a post.

But we don't need Tolkien novels for threads. It would be nice, but lets face it, for most of us this will only be a hobby.

[Christoph]

We shouldn't decrease our focus on writing quality, only on creative freedom. And really, more of the latter would lead to more of the former.

[Duffy]

That's the most brief and profound thing I've ever heard from you Christoph, and pretty much sums up what I'd end up saying but in rigorously quicker time. Nicely done.

[Jack Frost]

So instead of writing to a rubric we should write for the hell of writing? So really to sum it all up. Fuck the rubric lets go ahead and write? Shouldn't we really just trust the writers not to power game? Sure the levels are nice, but who has the time to write themselves to epic proportions?

[Lord Anglekos]

So instead of writing to a rubric we should write for the hell of writing? So really to sum it all up. Fuck the rubric lets go ahead and write? Shouldn't we really just trust the writers not to power game? Sure the levels are nice, but who has the time to write themselves to epic proportions?
I do.
You can't trust people to make the best decision, Jack. The first rule of humanity is that People Are Stupid. They will believe anything you tell them, as long as they A) want to hear it or B) fear it to be true. Have you heard the term "if you give a mouse a cookie"? I understand if you haven't, as it's somewhat of an old-fangled term (twenties, haha), but the term remains true; let one thing go, and people will take it and run with it.
I write for the sake of writing; I write because I like seeing my character grow, not because I want to impress anyone with my work. And I personally find that the levels help that growth. While, understandably, the leveling system can be restricting (i.e. Why the fuck is a 2000-old immortal soldier only average in swordsmanship and can only fire a fireball two feet in diameter?), I find that it helps weed out those who would simply destroy everything in sight if they could and those who can actually be creative.

[Jack Frost]

For once I actually agree with you LA,
Its pretty silly that we have to limit ourselves because of the retards of the bunch. Sure I'm not as smart as you all might adults, but I wouldn't ever dare make a universe devouring character. Ugh the thought makes me shudder.

[Saxon]

I think limiting ourselves for the sake of adopting protection over people who are generally poor writers to begin with is a rather dumb bargain to make. Why should I have to suffer because you or somebody else can't learn to adopt the program? People who generally powergame and 'devour universes' are ostracized and don't write here for very long. Its a community problem and one that solves itself. The RoG doesn't need half of what its equipped with in order to establish a fair and balanced community. The same can be done if a profiling archive system were just developed and used over a conservative, regulatory system that we have now.

More of a lassiez faire attitude should be adopted instead of worrying about people like that douchebag who could tear apart reality and stitch it back together. Regardless if his profile was approved or not, he would have never made it here. Reputation means a lot here IC once you become a regular, and if you become known for abusing the system and powergaming it'll take awhile for people to quit shunning you, if at all.

[Hysteria]

When I joined I remember trying to work out what sort of skills I could have, and how strong, but struggling to work it out. In the end I searched through lvl 0s and settled on something much weaker than it needed it be.

It was only much later I started hearing people talk about Quest only skills and NPC target only skills. Then there is leveling up, which again, has no guidlines, you just sort of make your current abilities stronger and maybe add a skill or two, then see how that goes.

The current character system is more hazy than complicated, and it makes it hard. The new system may have more guidelines, but that doesn't equate to complicated if it is delivered in a clear and concise way. If people and view these new guidelines and think 'oh thats what I can have at lvl 1' then its a success.

[Elrundir]

Perhaps we should lower the bar just a little bit. Lets not drop to where we get....

*john smiled* how are you?

As a post.

But we don't need Tolkien novels for threads. It would be nice, but lets face it, for most of us this will only be a hobby.
Food for thought: when Althanas first began, a lot of people's posts weren't very far from that (my own included). Maybe not quite so short, but yes, asterisks and all. I'd say it worked out. :p

My point is, that's when things were at their peak. When it was easy. I mean, christ, the first quest I ever did was a sad little thing about hunting down some goblins for a reason which I'm sure was inadequately explored. I don't recall people worrying too much about who was more powerful than whom, or who was too powerful for their level, or anything like that. Maybe when it came time for a tournament, but even then, thoughts were more along the lines of "Oh shit, I got matched up with Devon </blast from the past>, I'm fucked" because he was one of the best writers on the site at the time, not because of the power level of his character.

If I was deciding whether my character got hit by an opponent's attack, and how badly s/he got hit, I looked at the character profile to see what the skill/spell was supposed to do, I looked at the difference between our levels, and I looked at the general situation of the battle itself as written at the time of the attack. Easy squeezy. These are all things you'd have to keep in mind anyway in order to write and enjoy a good battle. (Although, to be honest, it doesn't seem like a whole lot will change on that front, because I can't see myself doing any of that differently; whether someone else's ability is listed as "average" or "above average" or "somewhat strong" will not be likely to mean much to me in battle compared with the parameters of the ability--how big is the fireball? How fast can it move?--and how it's being utilized in that round.)

I'm not saying this new system is necessarily more complicated or off-putting, but it certainly can be. Right now I'm faced with two problems: one, the actual power level seems to be decided by the RoG moderator rather than the player, based on how the ability is described, which takes (or could be interpreted as taking) some of the creative control out of the player's hands; and two, it's unclear what those power levels actually mean. I mean, let's say we've got character A and character B with fireball spells. Character A can create fireballs up to 6 feet in diameter that move fairly slowly. Character B can create fireballs only up to 1 foot in diameter which are therefore quite a bit weaker, but move a lot faster. Both of those could be pegged as, let's say, "above average" by the RoG mod; but in battle, they are going to require vastly different reactions from their target. In that case, what does the "above average" actually mean?

[Christoph]

I think limiting ourselves for the sake of adopting protection over people who are generally poor writers to begin with is a rather dumb bargain to make. Why should I have to suffer because you or somebody else can't learn to adopt the program? People who generally powergame and 'devour universes' are ostracized and don't write here for very long. Its a community problem and one that solves itself. The RoG doesn't need half of what its equipped with in order to establish a fair and balanced community. The same can be done if a profiling archive system were just developed and used over a conservative, regulatory system that we have now.

More of a lassiez faire attitude should be adopted instead of worrying about people like that douchebag who could tear apart reality and stitch it back together. Regardless if his profile was approved or not, he would have never made it here. Reputation means a lot here IC once you become a regular, and if you become known for abusing the system and powergaming it'll take awhile for people to quit shunning you, if at all.

This.

[Allistia Eraclaire]

I'm not saying this new system is necessarily more complicated or off-putting, but it certainly can be. Right now I'm faced with two problems: one, the actual power level seems to be decided by the RoG moderator rather than the player, based on how the ability is described, which takes (or could be interpreted as taking) some of the creative control out of the player's hands; and two, it's unclear what those power levels actually mean. I mean, let's say we've got character A and character B with fireball spells. Character A can create fireballs up to 6 feet in diameter that move fairly slowly. Character B can create fireballs only up to 1 foot in diameter which are therefore quite a bit weaker, but move a lot faster. Both of those could be pegged as, let's say, "above average" by the RoG mod; but in battle, they are going to require vastly different reactions from their target. In that case, what does the "above average" actually mean?


Exactly right. And that's only a couple variables. What if character A can create his fireballs at will and character B has to channel for a few seconds? What if character A's spells are based on a sort of DnD-esque "spells per day" system and character B has no such limitations? How hot is the fire?

There's a million variables and I think no system can adequately address them. I think we're going to have to settle for an imperfect system. If we accept this system as such and use it to cope with an otherwise impossible task I think we'll be fine. If we try to say that we can, with genuine accuracy, describe an ability as "above average" and have that be anything but shorthand for a much more complicated analysis, this system will paper over what is already a significant existing problem and leave that wound to fester while moderators claim that they are acting according to a fair system.

Of course, those are only the two options that I think will get taken. I frankly agree with Christoph and Saxon. I just don't think that this board has ever gotten less rules. It's complexity and beaurocratic nature only increase. I wouldn't argue for the total lawlessness and simplicity of the Interactive Village (though it was my creation and I enjoyed it, albeit as a fourteen year old). I would say that a lot of this "balance" issue is solved by the community, as Saxon described. If you write stupid things, people ignore you. That's how we deal with things being canon and not and whether you want to RP with someone or not. That was the ONLY rule of the IV and power levels were actually fairly constrained. You were allowed to be as powerful as people would believe you to be.

Levels are fine. People like rewards. Trying to keep things on a relatively even keel is also fine, but who cares whether a level 1 fighting another level 1 has exactly or even close to the same power? Most fights happen between people of different levels anyway and the winner isn't even determined by IC power anyway.

[Duffy]

Is it really too much for ask for people to start putting thought into their abilities and characters?

Is it so much of a leap to go from 'controls fire lulz,' to:

Can project 6 ft. 50 degree flame in a two inch spray, summon fist sized fireballs or snuff up to 6 candles in a 30ft diameter at will?

Really?

[Visla Eraclaire]

My abilities all tend to be that detailed. I don't think it's too much to ask.

My point is that once all that detail is presented, it isn't a simple matter to assign a "rank" and in fact it gets more difficult the more detail and variables go into it.

Also, I can post on my real account again. My Allistia avatar was starting to creep me out, and Letho can still suck a dick.

[Arai]

Is it really too much for ask for people to start putting thought into their abilities and characters?

Is it so much of a leap to go from 'controls fire lulz,' to:

Can project 6 ft. 50 degree flame in a two inch spray, summon fist sized fireballs or snuff up to 6 candles in a 30ft diameter at will?

Really?

Quoted for truth!

[Rayse Valentino]

I like the progression chart (as Ataraxis posted it, not that really vague one that doesn't tell you anything like Dirks posted) as it is applied to SKILLS.

ABILITIES, however, should be dealt with as they have been before. I do not endorse RoG mods having to take another step above posting 'approved!' as it delays a process that should be near-instantaneous.

I can't link this thread enough. (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=20576) The proper RoG is already there. All they have to do is copy and paste from that thread. What's the problem here?

[Vigil]

Is it really too much for ask for people to start putting thought into their abilities and characters?

Is it so much of a leap to go from 'controls fire lulz,' to:

Can project 6 ft. 50 degree flame in a two inch spray, summon fist sized fireballs or snuff up to 6 candles in a 30ft diameter at will?

Really?

Here (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=21668).

I would sincerely like to see you do better then that, Duffy. My profile is fine as is. I am not specifying exact range, diameter and every subsequent variable to satisfy the Staff's need for gratification of 3.0 and the RoG's unchecked paranoia. If this sort of new attitude is adopted and enforced by the RoG as draconian as its becoming, whether its intentional or not, I can assure you that I will not be around for much longer.

[Knave]

I'm going to ask a small, pessimistic question in the good faith that someone here will not be too much of an ass.

Who here is posting with the intention that they will have an effect on the final outcome of this situation, particularly when the discussion went on long before the majority of the forum knew?

Or, who here holds that this is a democratic process?

[Visla Eraclaire]

I'm going to ask a small, pessimistic question in the good faith that someone here will not be too much of an ass.

Who here is posting with the intention that they will have an effect on the final outcome of this situation, particularly when the discussion went on long before the majority of the forum knew?

Or, who here holds that this is a democratic process?

It isn't. It's open for public comment. The ultimate decision is going to come out of the mysterious haphazard working of staff decision making (i.e. someone comes up with something and runs with it and no one stops them).

Sometimes you can change that person's mind. Sometimes you can't. I'm posting in the thread because the thread is here. If you make it, they will post.

[Elrundir]

I'm going to ask a small, pessimistic question in the good faith that someone here will not be too much of an ass.

Who here is posting with the intention that they will have an effect on the final outcome of this situation, particularly when the discussion went on long before the majority of the forum knew?

Or, who here holds that this is a democratic process?
Well, no, of course not. Democracy is not a particularly efficient way to run a forum (it's nice, yes, but often not efficient). That doesn't mean we shouldn't voice our opinions, though.

[Christoph]

I'm going to ask a small, pessimistic question in the good faith that someone here will not be too much of an ass.

Who here is posting with the intention that they will have an effect on the final outcome of this situation, particularly when the discussion went on long before the majority of the forum knew?

Or, who here holds that this is a democratic process?

Simply put, by complaining we earn our right to complain. If we dislike the decisions being made but remain silent because it won't "have an effect on the final outcome", we have no right to complain later when it's implemented. By making ourselves heard now, the staff cannot claim to be ignorant of the dissent among the Normals; they either take our opinions into account and make adjustments accordingly or they don't.


Is it really too much for ask for people to start putting thought into their abilities and characters?

Is it so much of a leap to go from 'controls fire lulz,' to:

Can project 6 ft. 50 degree flame in a two inch spray, summon fist sized fireballs or snuff up to 6 candles in a 30ft diameter at will?

Really?

I don't believe that it's an issue of two extremes. It's an issue of one moderate approach and one rules-lawyering extreme. While it's easier to classify pyromancy in more rigid terms (I managed it more or less for most of my character profiles), other types of magic will not be so easily fit into your neat little system. Trying to force it to is a recipe for disaster. A more moderate, far simpler approach, would serve far more effectively. Have players list their powers with whatever terms of proficiency they want, and then have them present a few examples of what their character could do with said powers. The more rigid and complicated a registration seems (regardless of how rigid and complicated it actually is), the more potential members you will scare off.

[Yari Rafanas]

I can't bother to act like I know the current status of the site or how things will really end up working out, but I thought I'd throw in some oldbie's two cents:

We should go back to the days where registration takes 10 minutes (after you've created your profile) and then you get start goofing around, getting the feel for this whole "roleplaying" thing in the Peaceful Promenade (or Scara Brae, whatever). Countless character bonds all started in that crappy little tavern with the awkward "this is my story, now let's go on a quest together" type threads. Does that even happen anymore?

The greatest characters on this site grew into those characters over time. Their profiles were brief, simple, and had room for customization. Registration asked "What kind of character do you want to play in this extremely open game?" and people answered. There was no standard or requirement for abilities, people just listed what kind of magic they wanted to throw around and ran with it.

Let's use everybody's favorite example: the fireball. Used to be able to approve somebody's profile that said "PyroTom can cast a fireball spell." Then, when he entered a tournament or the Citadel and he wrote, "PyroTom cast his fireball spell at his opponent yari rafanas," the most creative in us took liberties in interpreting that attack how we wanted, and how we imagined it playing out. If PyroTom didn't describe it, we either sent a PM asking just how powerful it was (if it mattered) or just used our best judgement. In the end, the powergamers scored lower than the best of us, but everybody still had fun. Eventually, some powergamers grew into great writers and their profiles got specific, and things got more technical, but at that point you're integrated... you're socializing. You're coming up with strategies and playing with people who are comfortable with your character's power.

Not quite finished with this but don't have more time to say anything else.

TLDR: We should accept a minimum amount of detail in new registrations and let the rubric/scores reflect the use of power while continuing to reward detailed registrations.

[Knave]

Hmm, as expected. I was going to ask a follow up question along the lines of time and its appropriate use, but never mind. Carry on.

[Silence Sei]

People, a far more important issue has just arisen.

How long -will- you be staying with us this time, Yari? :D

[Max Dirks]

Before I fall asleep, I want to say something to those fearing a gestapo-like Realm of Greeting.

There are two major parts to the overhaul of the incentive system. The first is to prevent all powerful characters from dominating Althanas and ruining the fun for new members. Contrary to everyone's beliefs this will be mostly done by judges, not by ROG moderators. The two will work in concert to an extent, but its the judges that penalize you, not the ROG moderators. Despite venerable Yari's recollections, many players back in the day got away with powergaming in competitive writing because the judges didn't enforce it as they should. Combine that with the practice of approving abilities as spoils (which thankfully was ended a few months ago) and powers have gotten out of hand. There's that old rule that the better writer always wins. Well, the better writer will win, if they get a chance to write. Realistically speaking, most of our higher leveled characters can move once and kill their opponents (within the bounds of their profile). If the better writer ignores that, he's the one that's powergaming and he loses! Seriously, in Althanas 2.0 characters go from a structured growth system to free form at level 6. So to make sure judges maintain our growth system, we've basically made powergaming a rubric category.

The second goal is to make the ROG more uniform. The "ability progression chart" comes because we have had over 30 different RoG moderators. Each have their own idea of what is acceptable and what is not at each level. This has led to some characters being approved with outrageous abilities while others can't seem to get anything new. Former ROG moderators can attest that until now we've never had a set guide on what is acceptable per level. The progression chart offers a standardized system to ensure that all players are approved uniformly in terms of their average power level. Also, it doesn't take a whiz to realize that Althanas is not a conventional RPG. We can't give you a "fireball" spell at level 3 that does x damage - y defenses each time it's used like in Final Fantasy. If you write that you have the power to control fire, we'll ask what can your character do with it. That's all. Can he create a flame? Does it have to already be in the area? Can he affect the size of the flame? Can he concentrate the flame (i.e. fireball)? How hot can he get it? How long can your character maintain control of it? Remember, we're not moderating character knowledge in the ROG. If your character is smart enough to figure out that by aiming the fireball at a brush pile he can create a firewall that can prevent the advance of an enemy familiar, good for him (in a traditional RPG a fireball and a firewall would be different spells). All we care about in the ROG is how that character can affect other characters with the fire. This is the same thing we've always done in the past except now growth will be uniform across levels.

Night folks. Thanks for stopping by Yari, maybe you can grab a few more of the old guard to make an appearance for the opening of 3.0.

[Tainted Bushido]

He probably got it from the moderator forums where everything has been posted for discussion for days. I figured as a moderator maybe you'd periodically choose to look there.

I'd look there if I knew anything I bring up would actually be discussed as opposed to being cherry picked and turned into an extreme I never intended it to become.

[Yari Rafanas]

Night folks. Thanks for stopping buy Yari, maybe you can grab a few more of the old guard to make an appearance for the opening of 3.0.

Can't say I know or keep in touch with anybody I'd consider the old guard, but I do look forward to trying out 3.0. Everybody with doubts, lose them. Focus on the fun and have at it.

[Rayse Valentino]

The first is to prevent all powerful characters from dominating Althanas and ruining the fun for new members.

Dude, we DON'T have this problem.

[Max Dirks]

Dude, we DON'T have this problem.Oh? Explain that to the participants of the Cell then. I had several complaints about Rayse alone.

And Yari, let's hop a thread if you stick around.

[Saxon]

Oh? Explain that to the participants of the Cell then. I had several complaints about Rayse alone.

Battle.

Care to apply that statistic to quests? And if it isn't such a big deal for that area of the forum, which is a big part of the forum, then there is no need for a Powergaming addendum to the rubric and apply it to those of us who are doing quests.

[Rayse Valentino]

Oh? Explain that to the participants of the Cell then. I had several complaints about Rayse alone.

http://i.imgur.com/osXiJ.gif

[Max Dirks]

Care to apply that statistic to quests? And if it isn't such a big deal for that area of the forum, which is a big part of the forum, then there is no need for a Powergaming addendum to the rubric and apply it to us.I know what you're inferring here.

What you don't see is that we've discussed your ideas at length both in public and private. Your idea of dual rubrics was well liked. Even I had no problem doing it if the staff so desired. However, we ultimately decided that integrating dual rubrics into our EXP, GP and ROG systems would take far too much time to balance. How would you weigh such things? Do you get more EXP for a quest than a battle because it contains more writing elements even though a battle could easily be written better than a quest? Does an 8 in "story" in a battle rubric equal an 8 in "introduction", "rising actions", and "conclusion" in a story rubric? What use are "abilities" at all in non-competitive role-play? If Althanas is purely quests, why not just have a free-form forum? One primary goal of 3.0 was to simplify Althanas. A complicated system integration would not do that at all. Weighing would get even more complicated if we shortened the rubric, which was your idea too right?

To answer your question, there is a canon side to "continuity" as well. That encompasses everything from metal tiers, flora and fauna and current events. How well you integrate your character into Althanas is as important to quests as powergaming is to battles. You know, I was thinking. We're the only structured RP site I've seen in awhile without timestamps. Maybe we could trade continuity for a calendar, timestamps and no liquid time. If you post at the wrong time you thread is closed until that time arrives or you edit it accordingly? Maybe you should take comfort in realizing the amount of creative freedom you actually get on Althanas.

[Christoph]

I'm willing to give the RoG revisions a fair shot to see how they're implemented. As for the rubric, I'm a bit less optimistic. However, I have one question, one very important question.

Will the participants of individual threads be able to request a judgment using the old (IE: current) rubric? Because in many quests, the participants know each other and don't have to worry about balance and powegaming, and would thus rather have more focus on the story and the writing. So, will they be able to do that? If the answer is yes, then I will accept, though probably not strongly support, the current released changes.

[Max Dirks]

No, the rubric switch will be uniform.

[Saxon]

I know what you're inferring here.

What you don't see is that we've discussed your ideas at length both in public and private. Your idea of dual rubrics was well liked. Even I had no problem doing it if the staff so desired. However, we ultimately decided that integrating dual rubrics into our EXP, GP and ROG systems would take far too much time to balance.

I think I want to break this into two pieces because I want to point out where I think you guys should have taken more time into thinking about this. I understand that at some level we agree that this is a good idea, what I do not understand is why something like this cannot be implemented.

I know you and the staff are capable of devising such things because you're doing it now. And just because it wouldn't be absolutely perfect the first time around (God, I know you're going to soundbite me on this), doesn't mean it cannot be developed. Rome wasn't built in a day, and with that I also am taking these changes of 3.0 with a grain of salt as well. What I'm asking you is to reconsider the idea of dual rubrics in the favor that eventually, with enough tinkering and seeing how the community is affected by it, you could be relatively successful with it. Immensely successful, even.

The product you have now isn't ideal because it is trying to serve two different parties that have limited cohesion with each other. You've said you've discussed it with the staff at length, so I'm not going to insult your intelligence by breaking it down for you. Battles are a place for competition, quests are for stories. There is some overlap, and the two aren't exactly mutally exclusive, but they aren't the same.

A story I write with Liam about his fall from grace is seen through a different set of eyes then if I write one about Saxon squaring off with Slayer in some old churchyard fighting over an old god's bones. It cannot be expected for a judge to be able to judge either story appropriately or even fairly with the new tools you are providing them with the revamp of the rubric.

I don't think it is such a bad idea to look into dual rubrics as opposed to the alternative you're offering now, and I want to suggest an ultimatium. Give your rubric six months and observe the effects it has on the community. Implement a part of the forum where you can send feedback and have it looped to you in the way judging requests are put in that forum. It isn't a suggestion box or any of that nonsense, but a way for people to tell you directly what they think of the changes you are making.

If it turns out the rubric makes a seamless transition and there are no arguments, then you can use the feedback to adjust the rubric and ignore the second part of this proposal.

If it turns out that the rubric isn't a good fit for Althanas in the 3.0 Era from what you've seen of the feedback and what members, new and old are telling you, then maybe you should revisit the dual rubric idea and develop it. Present it to the community when you're finished, maybe even have it developed and used in experimental stages on people who volunteer for it (I will) and gauge what they and the judges think about it afterwards. Perhaps then you can tune it and do what you need to until you feel comfortable and confident in implementing it.

There really is no downside to accepting this proposal other then a little hard work, some research and looking to the community to help give you input in developing it. I'm not saying that you couldn't do it yourselves, but even fortune 500 companies look to the consumer and pay billions of dollars every year to analysts and marketing experts to try and get into their customers heads and figure out what they want from their company.

Just give it some thought. And if that's not enough, shoot the idea around the staff. If my dual rubric idea was fairly well received, and you guys worked on this version of the rubric already, a compromise shouldn't be that hard to work out.



How would you weigh such things? Do you get more EXP for a quest than a battle because it contains more writing elements even though a battle could easily be written better than a quest? Does an 8 in "story" in a battle rubric equal an 8 in "introduction", "rising actions", and "conclusion" in a story rubric? What use are "abilities" at all in non-competitive role-play? If Althanas is purely quests, why not just have a free-form forum? One primary goal of 3.0 was to simplify Althanas. A complicated system integration would not do that at all. Weighing would get even more complicated if we shortened the rubric, which was your idea too right?


Good ideas should not be discarded if it is upon the general agreement of both the staff and the community that such things would greatly benefit the site as opposed to what is being offered up now. And to not look into researching and experimenting with dual rubrics in saying that it wouldn't work because it is too complicated, instead of the actual reason that it isn't going to work because of the lack of trying, just seems lazy.

tl;dr - If you skimmed, don't even bother replying.

[Max Dirks]

If you want to freeform role-play, go somewhere else.

Setting up two rubrics is the first step towards creating Althanas (for battles), and the IW (for quests). The reason we decided to use one rubric is sound. It is too complicated to use two. Our system simply could not support it while maintaining Althanas' status as a creativing writing RPG. If you have a rubric that ignores the RPG elements, Althanas becomes pure freeform as there is no reason to limit characters in the ROG at all.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Max, that completely dodged his point. Having a different set of goals and expectations for battles and quests is natural and has nothing to do with free-form roleplaying.

Frankly, I'd be interested to know exactly how much of Althanas is battles. I would suspect from my experience as a judge and as a long time member that they are less than 25% of the content of the site. Setting the RoG and the rubric based on balancing characters for battles is just silly. You wouldn't design a car to be ho-hum at driving but great at parking. You shouldn't design a system to cater to a minority of the content at the expense of the majority.

Whenever people discuss greater flexibility you go down that slippery slope and throw out free form RP. That's just nonsense and you should be ashamed of yourself for making such a transparently fallacious argument. There are shades of gray between heavy rules RP and freeform. HINT: We're already in one such shade of gray. Althanas, basing its RP on writing and description rather than statitics is never going to succeed at being 'balanced' and rule-heavy. Games with actual statistics and professional designers still have significant balance issues (play DnD with anyone who has a mind to make a broken character and enjoy). That doesn't mean it should abandon all rules and become the IV, but it does mean that you should consider placing your focus on where the strengths of the system lie.

The type of RP you have lends itself better to storytelling than battle and if you have to design a single system that favors one, it should be storytelling. Fortunately, you don't have to do that. You can cater to both. You just have to put in the effort. At the very least, though, you shouldn't shackle creativity outside of the battle arena just because someone who virtually never battles (e.g. me) doesn't go crazy and beat everyone. As discussed before, people who play overpowered characters are addressed by the community. It's the same reason that people don't play multiclassed goliath powerhouses in DnD even though the rules permit it. The other people at the table scowl and the powergamer relents.

[Hysteria]

Frankly, I'd be interested to know exactly how much of Althanas is battles. I would suspect from my experience as a judge and as a long time member that they are less than 25% of the content of the site.

I went to the crystal ball (and character archive) and looked at the archived content for site, then broke it down into sections, Characters, Quests, Battles and Unresolved, and broke those down into posts and threads. For both Quests and Battles I removed two posts for each thread (the judgement and the 'gold/exp added' post) and for characters I only counted one post (the actual character) for each thread as 'content'. Characters also includes update threads (again, one post counted for each thread).

There were roughtly 12 posts per battle and 11 per quest, and I think my data was skewed by some non-quest threads in archives. I would estimate about a 10 to 15% error margin overall.

Sorry its fuzzy, but I'm sure you'll all survive.

http://www.althanas.com/world/picture.php?albumid=93&pictureid=511

As you can see, quests are at least 50% of the content, and about three times more quests than battles.

[Elrundir]

Very interesting. Not surprising, but interesting. Thanks for taking the time to go through and do that.

[Duffy]

Gripping stats Hysteria, but that's somewhat misleading, as it's the history of the site as it stands.

Is it possible for you to do the same for the last year alone, to see if the battle/quest trend has changed? I've certainly noticed an increase in activity in the Citadel, but given it's one thread to the many multiples of quest forums, it's clear to see why it is mainly quests.

Perhaps, if ever the Pagoda were to return, or the Dansdel to be recurred, that may change yet again.

[Max Dirks]

I looked into the same statistics as Hysteria about five months ago, Duffy. The switch from battles as the primary RP vehicle to quests started in 2007 when the ToW went inactive. This is ironic since the rubric has been slanted towards writing since 2005. Since then, battles have taken a backdoor to quests except during tournaments and during periods of heightened clan activity (basically when features are active, which will be all the time in Althanas 3.0). These statistics were the primary basis for the 70/30 breakdown of the new rubric. If you trace the full history of the rubric, we started at about 40/60, then moved to 60/40, then 90/10 in the current iteration.

Again, this is all stuff that was considered in depth prior to the design of the new system. So far, nothing said or proposed in this thread is new nor was it overlooked. Sorry you disagree, but we're doing what's best for the site.

[Visla Eraclaire]

That's fine. As I stated earlier, I don't actually expect you to change at all based on this thread.

Althanas just doesn't work that way. The only way things get done is if there's enough support for them anyway. The rules are established by administrative edict. The practice of the site is by popular opinion. You can create all the systems you want, but its up to players to choose whether and how to play within them.

If it takes 3.0 coming out as a flop to convince you that you've erred, I'm fine with that. The site's been around and I take the long view of things. I've played more or less the same way since it started. All the rules change is whether I get points and how much exp I get. I'm not really concerned about that. If I post it's because I have something I want to write and share. I could care less if it gets a 1 or a 100. Case in point, I've been level eight for months without submitting a new profile. I also have a completed thread that I haven't bothered submitting for judging. I think Althanas should encourage members who are here because they want to enjoy writing. The problem is we aren't the sort of people who are going to throw the game board up and storm off in a huff because of a rules change. People who play Althanas as a game are going to do that and so catering to them seems like the thing to do.

Time will tell.

[Christoph]

I looked into the same statistics as Hysteria about five months ago, Duffy. The switch from battles as the primary RP vehicle to quests started in 2007 when the ToW went inactive. This is ironic since the rubric has been slanted towards writing since 2005. Since then, battles have taken a backdoor to quests except during tournaments and during periods of heightened clan activity (basically when features are active, which will be all the time in Althanas 3.0). These statistics were the primary basis for the 70/30 breakdown of the new rubric. If you trace the full history of the rubric, we started at about 40/60, then moved to 60/40, then 90/10 in the current iteration.

That's not necessarily a problem. Let people write what they want to write. If battles are only a small percentage, then that's the way it is. There's no need to bend over backwards go "fix" it. Honestly, if the site had more people and more actual events, then battles would gain a higher percentage (because there would be a wider range of opponents and more competition).


Again, this is all stuff that was considered in depth prior to the design of the new system. So far, nothing said or proposed in this thread is new nor was it overlooked. Sorry you disagree, but we're doing what's best for the site.

A small group of people with dubious backgrounds in terms of success have considered all this stuff behind closed doors based on what they think is best for the site, without regards to open debate. And then you present the changes, not for our actual input, but to tell us what they're going to be and that we can deal with it because it's already been decided. Sorry if so many people lack faith. Hopefully now you can see why.

[Saxon]

If you want to freeform role-play, go somewhere else.

I like how you took the time to skim through my post, didn't bother to acknowledge the fact you were wrong, this is a bad plan, or accept that there is a better alternative and brush me off as some sort of clandestine hippy and that you simply know better.

Frankly, I was wrong and think many of the people are here too. There is no time that will show this is wrong. To show how badly you are screwing up the site, because you honestly don't give a shit. You're a battle-junkie and catering this site to people who favor battles, even if they are the minority. The same happened when Sighter turned this site over to the people who write quests instead of battles. The only difference being was that he favored the majority and honestly knew what he was doing. There's no sense of trying to find a balance here, because honestly you're simply not interested in it. You're interested in doing what you want to do regardless of how it effects on others or a community and try to sneak it through under an afghan blanket saying it'll be for the good of everybody.

Seriously? I'm sick of this crap. 3.0 can come. The changes can roll in, but I think the miracle of the site falling around your ears to get you to realize you're being a pompous jackass and to listen to reason is never going to come. People will do as they always do. Eat out of your hand, accept what they give you and while you have the time to bide for it, you'll play on their ignorance. Same cycle, different story.

To say I'm shocked that you'd show how blatantly obtuse you're being, especially in public, would be a lie. Its not in your nature to concede. Ever. Even if your wrong. Very, very wrong.




The reason we decided to use one rubric is sound.


Because its too easy to do? Because you're adopting one extreme under the pretense that if you try to see a better alternative you'll end up with the other? Get over yourself. This isn't some crusade to make Althanas better and that all objection to what you're doing is wrong simply because you think you might be right. That's idiotic and childish.

I'd try to help allieve you of your doubt by explaining how this problem could be solved, but you've frankly shown that you have absolutely no capacity to either retain or argue said points outside of the realm of merely acknowledging they exist. But, whatever, far be it from me to ever attempt to reason with you.

I'm actually pretty interested to see how you view yourself. As if you're in some sort of perpetual hollywood drama with you vs. everybody else and regardless of the outcome, you'll be okay because you're you, the hero of the story, and everyone else is the opposition meant to be taken down despite the odds. And if it doesn't work, don't worry about it, there's a writer there somewhere to fix out the logical fallacies and the heavy lifting for you in post.

Idiot.



It is too complicated to use two.


Ow, ow! Please don't make us do work! It hurts!

Same speel used for every idea that requires you and the people you'll make do it actually do some work. It doesn't fit, it's too complicated, we don't have the resources. Bullshit.

You're lazy, you think you're right, and you'd bet the site you own on any gamble because you own it and there is no possible way you could lose. Hm, you must be a terrific poker player.



Our system simply could not support it while maintaining Althanas' status as a creativing writing RPG. If you have a rubric that ignores the RPG elements, Althanas becomes pure freeform as there is no reason to limit characters in the ROG at all.


This doesn't even make sense. How does two rubrics that grade differently to cater to two different mediums change the fabric of reality? This pretty much proves it, though. I'm talking to you, and you're simply listening to the beat of another drum. Even if that drum is leading you down the inevitable, slippery slope of being seen for what you truly are. A powerhungry, self-righteous jackass who can't see what's the better plan, not because you don't want to, but because you lack the physical ability.

[Letho]

A small group of people with dubious backgrounds in terms of success have considered all this stuff behind closed doors based on what they think is best for the site, without regards to open debate. And then you present the changes, not for our actual input, but to tell us what they're going to be and that we can deal with it because it's already been decided. Sorry if so many people lack faith. Hopefully now you can see why.A small group of people with dubious backgrounds in terms of success has a better chance of reaching a consensus than a large group of people with dubious backgrounds in terms of success. It's all and well to speak about everyone getting to have their say, but following that line of thought nothing would ever get done. Reading through this thread, there are probably no two opinions that are the same, and a general consensus would be reached about Christmas of 2050. That's why there are people behind closed doors who at some point decide which of those ideas can be beneficial to the site. Sometimes you may not like it how it turns out, but hey, there will always be someone who doesn't like it.


EDIT: Saxon, tone it down. I understand you're peeved, but unless you can present your case without name-calling, you will not present it at all. You have been warned.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Watch out, Saxon. You might have to face the bitter sting of posting on one of your alternate accounts for a few days.

I don't know what Christoph is saying, but I can tell you that I don't think any reasonable person suggests that a general consensus is the way to run anything. Not everyone's going to agree. However, deciding things in the Star Chamber and then telling everyone else what happened and disregarding their legitimate concerns because it's already been decided isn't a smart way of doing things either.

Just because the idea was presented and a group of essentially randomly selected people disliked it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be further considered.

[Saxon]

A small group of people with dubious backgrounds in terms of success has a better chance of reaching a consensus than a large group of people with dubious backgrounds in terms of success. It's all and well to speak about everyone getting to have their say, but following that line of thought nothing would ever get done. Reading through this thread, there are probably no two opinions that are the same, and a general consensus would be reached about Christmas of 2050. That's why there are people behind closed doors who at some point decide which of those ideas can be beneficial to the site. Sometimes you may not like it how it turns out, but hey, there will always be someone who doesn't like it.

Keep telling yourself that. 3.0 is half-baked, and like you said, lacks a certain amount of polish. In that a few people who actually care try to do some of the work, Max gathers up all of the projects, finished or not, and runs with it. I'd honestly like to hear what goes on behind the curtain right about now, because I frankly think you're being dishonest in the sense that nobody but the cabal can see your disagreements, and they would never, ever show that there is any sort of schism amongst members of the staff.

Except for well, you know, Pat. But what does it matter, eh? He's a tool, right?

I don't really care what goes on behind the curtain, because I already know what does. I've been there. Nothing. Other then what I mentioned above, the only thing that would remotely interest me now is the power trip Taskmienster is having and how he's trying to bring Sei to his knees for taking one of his titles. There is some good to the staff, but not a lot. And the higher echelons of it are staffed with knuckle-dragging idiots who don't listen to reason. But lets continue to pretend we're doing a good job. Nothing could possibly go wrong.


EDIT: Saxon, tone it down. I understand you're peeved, but unless you can present your case without name-calling, you will not present it at all. You have been warned.


I find it funny that you think anything in my last post had any bearing at all towards presenting some kind of case in a plea for understanding. Nope. That ship sailed. I've reasoned, I've talked, I've tried to play to better sensibilities but it doesn't work. It won't work. Even other people who deliberately went out of their way to prove Max wrong, and did, with the aid graphs and charts telling Max he is wrong, he still believes that such an idea has no place here. And that tells me above all else that sitting here and trying to discuss such ideas and treat him with the respect that he is an adult who believes in fair play and has the capacity to listen to reason truly makes me stupid.

It was a good idea. Was. And I'll be excited to see the implementation of dual rubrics in the next few years when Max puts a new spit and polish to it, adopts it as his own and tries to force it down everyone's throats in another update with a random-yet-ironic-title.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Dissent is a bannable offense now? That post hardly crossed any lines. May as well ban everyone in this topic so you can make room for all those new people Althanas 3.0 is sure to attract.

A bird in the bush is worth TWO in the hand, right? Or was it...

[Christoph]

A small group of people with dubious backgrounds in terms of success has a better chance of reaching a consensus than a large group of people with dubious backgrounds in terms of success. It's all and well to speak about everyone getting to have their say, but following that line of thought nothing would ever get done. Reading through this thread, there are probably no two opinions that are the same, and a general consensus would be reached about Christmas of 2050. That's why there are people behind closed doors who at some point decide which of those ideas can be beneficial to the site. Sometimes you may not like it how it turns out, but hey, there will always be someone who doesn't like it.

There appear to be a fair number of people who don't like the new rubric (as well as other proposed changes), so it's not just an issue of "someone who doesn't like it." Nobody is asking for democracy, just for the staff to actually listen and give real consideration to our suggestions, as many of them are well thought-out and offer strong, logical alternatives, or point our clear, often easily fixed, flaws in the proposed changes. The staff should actually engage in a healthy, rational debate with an open-mind to adjusting their plans, rather than simply assuring everyone that they know best and have already discussed everything worth discussing. That would much more effectively earn the faith of the member base. More so than banning dissenters and giving them childish, insulting user titles.

[Max Dirks]

Hmm, the childish usertitle you're referring to wasn't placed by a current staffer, Christoph. I just checked the usergroup data for banned users and it was set to override the user's title to "Complete Idiot." This was done long before my time as administrator and might even be a forum default. My apologies to both Saxon and Visla for having to endure the title. I've deleted it so nothing should show up now.

[Max Dirks]

Edit: I hope I didn't ninja anyone by deleting most of my post.

I just realized an oversight in the posted rubric and in the interest of full disclosure I'll explain it to the interested folks. As posted, Althanas 3.0 will have two separate rubrics: the "full" rubric and the "condensed" rubric. It was always our plan to have the condensed rubric be just that--a condensed version of our main rubric. However, we were unable to reduce the then proposed 10 categories into 3 main categories. What happened was we left it as it was (or is). In my haste to get this information to you, I didn't realize we hadn't sorted out the issue. This is why my arguments might sound weird in other parts of this thread or if I ninja'd you with this post.

So, given your vehement suggestions in this thread, I've asked the staff if they would like to keep the oversight as a true second rubric. If they do, we'll work out a way to integrate it into the incentive system. It will probably be flawed to an extent though offering more EXP to those who use the full rubric than who use the condensed one.

More information on this later.

[Atzar]

Out of curiosity, where do items and quest spoils fit into all of this? Are they still going to be moderated by RoG like they are now? Any significant changes?

I'd kinda like to know what the plan is with the Althanas economy in general.

[Max Dirks]

Out of curiosity, where do items and quest spoils fit into all of this? Are they still going to be moderated by RoG like they are now? Any significant changes?Only one important change: progressive items will no longer be allowed. This means no more swords that level up as your character does. Other than that, the ROG will work the same way as it currently does with respect to spoils (i.e. it will be concerned with initial items, disproportional items spoils and ability spoils only).

[Jack Frost]

Time to make an attempt at some sort of relevant input...

We can all scream and shout about how the new systems going to suck dick, or how its going to change the site for the better. But in reality none of us can be 100% certain until it actually happens. Don't get your panties in a knot over this. Sure it's big, but if it blows up things can be fixed, the site can be saved as long as we have faith in it.

Here's my question to you Max, Shit's going down where starting profiles can have a bit more attribute wise, like swordsmanship and such. Will there be any adjustments made for members like myself who will find themselves beaten to a pulp by the incoming master swordsmen? I purposely underplayed my opening profile so I'd get through RoG a hell of a lot faster, so my level one, hell my level three will probably be off par with the zeros coming in. Any idea what I can do to fix that?

[Atzar]

You'll be able to have your profile reapproved. Or just play a wimp. Your choice.

[Letho]

Keep in mind, Jack, that "master swordsman" won't mean a thing if that skill isn't supported by abilities befitting a master swordsman. Meaning, a level zero who claims to be a master swordsman, but has average speed, strength, dexterity and whatnot will have no technical advantage over someone claiming to be an adept swordsman or above average swordsman with the same attributes and/or accompanying abilities.

Example: master swordsman and an above average swordsman fight in the Citadel. Master swordsman has 1.5X strength of a normal human, an ability to set his sword aflame and some minor regeneration. The above average swordsman has increased perception and dexterity, and an ability to make his sword sharper for a short period of time. Now, once the battle starts, the above average swordsman actually has the advantage when it comes to swordsmanship. He can use his perception to spot weaknesses in his opponents defenses and use his dexterity to position himself for the strike. The "master" swordsman can pretty much just swing his blade really hard, take a hit or two more, and make for some good fireworks. And if the writer of the master swordsman actually plays his character dodging every blow and running circles around his opponent, he'll actually get points docked for powergaming once the judge gets a hold of him. So technically speaking, there's no point in upping your skill level without the means to back it up. Nobody's saying you can't do it, but you'd look pretty funny being a legendary swordsman or archer or whatever and not being able to hit the side of a barn.

This is at least how I see this new setup. Max can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Elrundir]

Only one important change: progressive items will no longer be allowed. This means no more swords that level up as your character does. Other than that, the ROG will work the same way as it currently does with respect to spoils (i.e. it will be concerned with initial items, disproportional items spoils and ability spoils only).
Can you please elaborate on this point a bit? Because I think one of my characters might just have been invalidated completely, depending on what the exact definition is of something like a "sword that levels up as your character does." (Unless you just mean the sword can't get stronger, such as in the type of metal, without actually purchasing an upgrade in the Bazaar, in which case she's fine.)

[Silence Sei]

That's exactly what he means. You can still get bazaar/quest spoil upgrades.

But like Sei's Gemini Blades, that are supposed to become stronger in tier for every level Sei gains, that's no longer in effect.

[Duffy]

The same will apply for Duffy's Katarhna, I'll have to pay or augment the strength of the blade through more conventional means over 'it got stronger.'

[Rahegalhoff]

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, Raggy's completly unaffected, since he has to earn every single upgrade to his divine equipment set.

[Elrundir]

That's exactly what he means. You can still get bazaar/quest spoil upgrades.

But like Sei's Gemini Blades, that are supposed to become stronger in tier for every level Sei gains, that's no longer in effect.
Alright, thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure because Christina's sword does technically "get stronger as she levels up" (i.e. her abilities are all tied into the sword, which unlocks new ones to her over time or powers up old ones in some way), just not in that way. If we're just talking about the tier of the metal, then nevermind. :p

[Max Dirks]

Just the tier of the metal, sorry.

You can use whatever item you want to direct abilities.

[Visla Eraclaire]

And I would imagine that if for RP purposes you actually want a sword that technically evolves in teir, you could just pay the gold cost of the upgrade as an OOC housekeeping matter.

[Venessian]

Hahaha...

Are you sure new-blood (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=22200&page=2) is what you really want?

Althanas already has a good system that separates it from other forum based Rps. Just look at that douche and all the crap Letho had to go through just to have to turn away some jack-ass no one would want to play with anyways.

Call me old fashioned, but if you really want to make an Althanas 3.0, just add some flashy stuff like pictures, and maybe a shiney new interface. maybe a cool flash drop-down bar or something that shows me my level and powers? I dunno. It just seems that none of current changes are being made for me or my characters, but on the gameble that it might attract new people. Seems to me, level # is just a title or badge, but really, your characters have as much power as you quest and battle for. If all my abilities are tangible numbers, then its kind of making this a video game. I don't want to play a video game, or I'd be on WOW right now instead of typing this. I want a forum that lets me do whatever I want to do within the confines of the rules, and then beat someone up with my magic. And if they dont like it, they can go quest for a sword big enough to cut my head off. Circle of life and all that.

If I kill the Makalakian Lich Empress, I want to be able to take her staff of undying death and ressurect an army of skeletal warriors, because I wrote a 30-page soloquest that got a thumbs up from a judge. I don't think my new staff can really be rated on a point system. Is it all-powerful? Yes. Would a judge let me have it? If s/he thought my quest kicked ass and my level was appropriate, yes.

Please don't bog me down with numbers and points. There are videogames that already conquered that market. Let my fireballl be as powerful as I train it to be, and if I want to be able to teleport to the moon, then I'll put in as many hours in writing quests as a judge says I should.

I'd also like to point out that you have an active roster of about 100 people, give or take. Thats more than I'll ever get a chance to role-play with. Jus' sayin. If they all posted twice a week, well, it'll save Letho some grey-hairs in the RoG.

EDIT - I know that the update is going to happen, I'm not arguing against it or anything, but I think the focus of the update should maybe take into account that Numbers have NOTHING to do with writing, and math is the destroyer of imagination and creativity.

[Kurai]

Wow...is all I have to say to that one guy's profile. The way he was writing it, he would have been stronger than any person here. Or hell all of us put together...

Wouldn't be surprised if he came here just to troll anyway.

[Yari Rafanas]

Sorry, I skimmed through this thread again and I couldn't find an answer to my question: When is this planned to roll out?

[Duffy]

In about...3 hours and 47 minutes?

[MetalDrago]

Methinks, Duff-man, we're going on the New Year's as observed by the Eastern Seaboard of the United States. Even then, I doubt it'll go through exactly at midnight.

[Duffy]

Hehe, what I meant was, Max said the 1st of January, and that'd be in 2 hours and twenty eight minutes.

As to when he'll do it on the day exactly, that's up to time travel and how fucked he gets this evening.

Cheers everyone!

[Max Dirks]

Were waiting for something. I suspect the 6th will be our roll out day. If that changes I will let you know.

[Godhand]

Oh God. I really don't want to post in this thread. I really want to be doing other things right now, almost anything, really, but this is too important.

As far as the new rubric goes, I'm not worried. Any judge worth his salt assigns a score to a thread as soon as he finishes reading it and then works backwards from there, cherry picking examples justifying different categories' scores so they add up to the number he felt was right. This is because to do it the 'right' way would be psychotic; everyone knows that good writing is more than just the sum of it's parts.

Meanwhile, the new RoG...God, please, please don't. I am on my hands and knees, begging you, WITH TEARS IN MY EYES and absolutely no snide sarcasm, please don't do this. You went exactly the wrong way with this. You're adding more restrictions instead of less when you can ask anybody and they'll all tell you that the 'put a number to them, max 1.5 average' skills are what most discourages newbies from staying. I know what you're going to say: "That's just your opinion, practically everyone compromises enough to get their profile approved rather than leaving." But that's not the point, it's the retention rate. They get such a gutted, miserable character that they don't want to play with them anymore. God I could fucking cry right now. WE HAVE SUCH A POOR RETENTION RATE, AND SO FEW NEW MEMBERS JOIN ANYWAY. Loosen restrictions! Or, god, if you have to, if Letho will just NOT LET THE FUCK UP, keep the same restrictions but stop forcing them to assign numbers like that to them plus the above average shit. They come in with an idea of what they'd like their character to be, then bargain to get something more basic, and in the old days it would still be a cool, deadly character, but now with all the numbers exposing him as strictly 'above average' and nothing more rather than the old vagaries of flowery description followed by judge warnings not to go overboard, they see their characters in the harsh, clinical light of what they really are: weak. Pitiful. Sad.

And what's this about not letting weapons scale with you anymore? What was so gamebreaking about that? It was just another ability, one which Letho seemed to have a HUGE stick up his ass about because each tier counted for one new ability when you updated. There was no fire to put out there.

I'm not even going to get into the fact that you seem to think the best way to release this news is as some sort of fucking holy edict from Mount Olympus where we can discuss it but expect no change because our aryan master race overlords know best, yea may they rule forever; sure, there's less than fifty people on site and this could easily be an effective democracy, but whatever, its your way or the highway and I can respect that, though I resent it and definitely think you're fucking stupid for doing it this way but whatever.

Or the fact that you posted a bunch of shit where it seems like going into canon and the timeline is a PRIVILEGE you only get after reaching level 15, which is fucking batshit, how the fuck does anything enter the canon then other than by holy edict? Basically all the level caps, busted reincarnation bonuses when barely anyone reincarnates anyway as is because of the steep penalties...Honestly I don't even know how the discussion could have ended up at this point by the time 3.0 was released it's such a boneheaded fucking move.

But all of this, though awful, is just peripheral to the main issue. Please. I'll do anything, but please, DON'T FURTHER HARSHEN THE RoG. Don't make them assign numbers to everything; let them use their WORDS, goddamnit this is a WRITING FORUM not fucking DUNGEONS AND DOUCHEBAGS. Loosen the restrictions instead, or at least mask them like I said you should! I swear retention will increase significantly! I fuckin' promise!

I'll do anything. I'll kiss your ring. I will forever stop posting in the OOC forums. Just please, please, please don't increase restrictions and regulations in the RoG. It is-...Goddamnit. Please.

[Jack Frost]

Oh God. I really don't want to post in this thread. I really want to be doing other things right now, almost anything, really, but this is too important.

As far as the new rubric goes, I'm not worried. Any judge worth his salt assigns a score to a thread as soon as he finishes reading it and then works backwards from there, cherry picking examples justifying different categories' scores so they add up to the number he felt was right. This is because to do it the 'right' way would be psychotic; everyone knows that good writing is more than just the sum of it's parts.

Meanwhile, the new RoG...God, please, please don't. I am on my hands and knees, begging you, WITH TEARS IN MY EYES and absolutely no snide sarcasm, please don't do this. You went exactly the wrong way with this. You're adding more restrictions instead of less when you can ask anybody and they'll all tell you that the 'put a number to them, max 1.5 average' skills are what most discourages newbies from staying. I know what you're going to say: "That's just your opinion, practically everyone compromises enough to get their profile approved rather than leaving." But that's not the point, it's the retention rate. They get such a gutted, miserable character that they don't want to play with them anymore. God I could fucking cry right now. WE HAVE SUCH A POOR RETENTION RATE, AND SO FEW NEW MEMBERS JOIN ANYWAY. Loosen restrictions! Or, god, if you have to, if Letho will just NOT LET THE FUCK UP, keep the same restrictions but stop forcing them to assign numbers like that to them plus the above average shit. They come in with an idea of what they'd like their character to be, then bargain to get something more basic, and in the old days it would still be a cool, deadly character, but now with all the numbers exposing him as strictly 'above average' and nothing more rather than the old vagaries of flowery description followed by judge warnings not to go overboard, they see their characters in the harsh, clinical light of what they really are: weak. Pitiful. Sad.

And what's this about not letting weapons scale with you anymore? What was so gamebreaking about that? It was just another ability, one which Letho seemed to have a HUGE stick up his ass about because each tier counted for one new ability when you updated. There was no fire to put out there.

I'm not even going to get into the fact that you seem to think the best way to release this news is as some sort of fucking holy edict from Mount Olympus where we can discuss it but expect no change because our aryan master race overlords know best, yea may they rule forever; sure, there's less than fifty people on site and this could easily be an effective democracy, but whatever, its your way or the highway and I can respect that, though I resent it and definitely think you're fucking stupid for doing it this way but whatever.

Or the fact that you posted a bunch of shit where it seems like going into canon and the timeline is a PRIVILEGE you only get after reaching level 15, which is fucking batshit, how the fuck does anything enter the canon then other than by holy edict? Basically all the level caps, busted reincarnation bonuses when barely anyone reincarnates anyway as is because of the steep penalties...Honestly I don't even know how the discussion could have ended up at this point by the time 3.0 was released it's such a boneheaded fucking move.

But all of this, though awful, is just peripheral to the main issue. Please. I'll do anything, but please, DON'T FURTHER HARSHEN THE RoG. Don't make them assign numbers to everything; let them use their WORDS, goddamnit this is a WRITING FORUM not fucking DUNGEONS AND DOUCHEBAGS. Loosen the restrictions instead, or at least mask them like I said you should! I swear retention will increase significantly! I fuckin' promise!

I'll do anything. I'll kiss your ring. I will forever stop posting in the OOC forums. Just please, please, please don't increase restrictions and regulations in the RoG. It is-...Goddamnit. Please.

I had to quote this. Why? Because he's pretty fucking right here. Althanas is a free form writing site with a system to prevent power gaming that makes it similar to a game. We are not here to play said game, we are here to write. I have to say with some of the new rules we will all leave pretty soon. Hell you've already tossed one member away. I might follow suit soon if this continues. Think Max, I respect you and all of the judges, but your decisions aren't going to fix this site. It will probably break it more than it is already.

[Petoux]

Man, I agree with Godhand and Jack Frost here ... reason I left for a long time (before I returned recently) was BECAUSE of the restrictions and NOW you're making them worse?

Oh please don't let it be so!

*Pulls hair out*

Don't lose your members Max ... pretty pretty PRETTY please! I'll kiss your ring too.

;)

Speaking of members, besides making proper changes like GodHand said ... we have to find a way to market this site so more people join (once the proper changes have been made).

Take it from Godhand, Jack, and I here (and a few others) Max ... it will be for the worst.

*Beg*

[Amber Eyes]

Althanas is a free form writing site with a system to prevent power gaming that makes it similar to a game.

No, its not. Althanas is just as routed in the game aspects as it is in the writing. Althanas is a creative writing forum AS WELL as a game in which your writing helps you progress. The trick is finding the right balance between the two. Each and every person wants different things from this site, we argued about most of these issues between the staff as well. No one on the staff wants to lose a single player, but no matter what changes we make we're going to upset someone.

[Petoux]

No one on the staff wants to lose a single player, but no matter what changes we make we're going to upset someone.



True, yet on the other hand ... depending what changes you implement could either have more positive effects, or more negative effects.

With the changes listed, and the comments made, it seems (overall with everything included) that it will be primarily a negative effect.

Yes it's true that you can't make EVERYONE happy, but there IS a way to implement changes that make it more positive.

I'm not the greatest at explaining things, so I'm sure GodHand / Jack / and a few others will do it for me.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Godhand is precisely correct.

On the game/writing dichotomy, I have one thing to say. I've said it many times and nobody has disagreed with it to date. People have ignored it a lot but I've never heard a cogent disagreement. I would welcome someone to try, but what I expect is for Max to brush by it without really confronting its substance, state that he knows better than me, and do what he wants. Althanas may change, but that will always stay the same.

If Althanas is a game, it's a pretty shitty game. There are a lot better games out there that are easier to get into, more refined with more players, more resources, and more of everything that makes games fun.

If Althanas is a writing forum, it's an alright writing forum. It has a bunch of game junk that can encourage you to finish a story that you might otherwise leave in a .doc on your computer. You pay a little bit of a price for it in terms of creativity, but all in all it's not too bad.

Why are we putting our focus on the thing we do worse and basically have no chance of being great at?

You aren't going to please all the people all the time, but your goal doesn't seem to be to please anyone. You talked amongst yourselves, but the sad fact is that there are so few active members that all the staff consists of is a lopsided inaccurate sample of a group that isn't comparatively much larger. What makes you think you understand the site and what its members want better than anyone else? I can tell you for an absolute fact that for all his mockery of other people not posting and not RPing, Max Motherfucking Dirks hasn't RPed in a hell of a long time and I don't think he understands members very well at all.

I certainly don't speak for the "average member." I'd be insulted if you thought I did, but I do think I represent a viewpoint that isn't foreign to the board, given the number of people talking about freedom and writing. Max is willing to try all kinds of gimmicks to get people in and keep them but anything that would take a step toward "free form RP" may as well be a crime in his eyes. That's narrowminded. I'll never understand his justification for it. But it's pretty aparent that it's something he went INTO the discussion thinking, not something he concluded AFTERWARDS. It's a preconceived notion and the conclusion was driven by it all along.

[Petoux]

Maybe we should have all the "veteran" rpers / players / althanaians / whatever re-write the rules and rubric ... no offense Max (or anyone else) they just seem to know how to make the site better (imo) vs this 3.0 crap.

Hey, if all the people that have legitimate arguments and actually have good ideas to make 3.0 "worthwhile" I say we do it ... what's the harm? Max saying "No?" ... why not?

[Visla Eraclaire]

Petoux, the harm is in the time lost. My time is very valuable and fixing this site is a time consuming endeavor. I've offered to help it many times. Lots of us have. We've put together proposals. We've gone a lot of the way toward them.

The problem is, when one man has total veto power and can just say "No, I'm right" and that's the end of all your work, there's no reason to do it. There's no reason to go all the way through it when the answer has already been given. If there were some assurance that it would at least get a fair shake, I think people would, but there isn't. Max does whatever he likes. That's his privilege. But it's also our privilege not to bother helping him when he acts so capriciously.

[Letho]

I think this is all getting blown out of proportions a bit. These changes won't turn Althanas into something akin to D&D, where you have to list every little bit of info about the ability you're using. In fact, most of the abilities people have in their profiles probably won't need any editing because the new system was built around the current state of things and not by pulling numbers out of our asses. We've observed the usual number of abilities/updates people get at certain levels and their strengths and put a definite number on it, not only for the sake of balance, but also for the sake of clarity. Up until this point, there was no specific guideline for the RoG mods regarding the number of updates and their strengths (something people also complained about). This worked for the most part, but there are always people that get away with something more and there are also differences between RoG mods and their opinions, making for an imperfect system. These changes are aimed to remedy some of those imperfections.

Will this be that much different from the current system? No, not really. Most people already use some sort of measurement for their abilities, be it by comparing it a normal human being, stating the weight they can lift or how big of a fire they can cause, how high can they jump and how long can they fly and how many times they can bombard someone with lightning before running out of steam. All the new system is going to do is assign those abilities a certain power level or whatever you want to call it so we can run them through a formula and keep everybody as balanced as possible. Is it really stifling to your creativity that you have to list just how big of a fire you can cause, or how hard can you swing a sword?

Oh, and Godhand, I find it interesting that you cannot seem to make a post without mentioning me, even when, like in this case, I had practically nothing to do with the creation of these new guidelines. I will enforce them, of course, because while they may not be perfect, I feel they are an improvement over the current system. But if you still need someone to blame, I don't really mind.

[Petoux]

Maybe, maybe not .. it just seems we are getting closer and closer to

...

*Petoux rolls the dice*

rd6!

Your attack missed

awww ....

:(

I think that's what must people are afraid of. Yet on the other hand, with a few editing tweaks (maybe a lot) 3.0 could be better.

Remember everyone, it isn't effective yet. He's probably tweaking it as we type.

I'm sure (we hope) he is taking everything into consideration, I mean think of it. Would the owner of a site that pays for it (I think) WANT people to leave? No, it would be a waste of his time and money.

I think he means for the best intentions, but there are better ways of doing it though.

[~Humphrey_Nonyton~]

Largely, I was planning on staying out of this thread due to my own personal feelings of 3.0. I retired a character (Lorenor) cause of the ROG changes and how I knew they would affect my newer level up's once I would have obtained level 11. My main concern, probably many of Althy's vets feel like this too, is that their character(s) will get needlessly double and triple nerfed at higher levels. I know, in my case, when I hit level 10 Kyle asked for a number of ability edits, I thought were unfair, but I did them anyway.

I was assured then that -all- high levels would receive such editing treatment. I guess I'm not seeing this. Which is the main reason I retired Lorenor, as he was currently, he wasn't going to fit into the paradigm of 3.0. Some mod at some point would have considered him "too powerful" in comparison with other people of my level bracket and I wouldah got nerfed -again-. It was a frustrating situation to deal with. My concerns with 3.0 are mostly paranoia.

I don't have a problem with the rubric -at all-. Let me make that perfectly clear. My problem is with the ROG changes. I'm with Visla and others, being a site veteran and all, that the changes will put off a lot of incoming players. It stopped me from using Lorenor all together and I've had 3+ incarnations of the man! Anyway, despite my personal feelings about 3.0, I'm willing to give it a chance. Which is why I rolled an entirely new character for it. (Elthas) And I'm concentrating on my alt's more. Anyway that's my thoughts on the subject.

[Rayse Valentino]

The sad fact is that none of this rubric stuff even matters in practice. The site's biggest problems regarding judging are the judges themselves. At least a couple years ago you could request the judge you trusted, but now? I don't think I trust any of them right now, and it's not personal; I just saw what they've done before and it didn't make sense to me.

Of course, this is a fairly sacred cow in a site where judging is voluntary and very few volunteer, so losing the few judges we have left would put the site into permanent stasis. I don't know what the solution is, but the issue definitely dwarfs the rubric.

[Visla Eraclaire]

the sad fact is that none of this rubric stuff even matters in practice. The site's biggest problems regarding judging are the judges themselves. At least a couple years ago you could request the judge you trusted, but now? I don't think i trust any of them right now, and it's not personal; i just saw what they've done before and it didn't make sense to me.

Of course, this is a fairly sacred cow in a site where judging is voluntary and very few volunteer, so losing the few judges we have left would put the site into permanent stasis. I don't know what the solution is, but the issue definitely dwarfs the rubric.

qft

[Atzar]

The sad fact is that none of this rubric stuff even matters in practice. The site's biggest problems regarding judging are the judges themselves. At least a couple years ago you could request the judge you trusted, but now? I don't think I trust any of them right now, and it's not personal; I just saw what they've done before and it didn't make sense to me.

Of course, this is a fairly sacred cow in a site where judging is voluntary and very few volunteer, so losing the few judges we have left would put the site into permanent stasis. I don't know what the solution is, but the issue definitely dwarfs the rubric.

Of those currently active/lurking on the site, who would you guys like as judges? Honest question.

[Silence Sei]

Uttam123.

[Yari Rafanas]

There needs to be some incentive to Judge. Judging is tough and consumes a lot of time, and that's just not what a lot of people have these days.

It's not like it was 6 or 7 years ago when we were all in highschool, you know? I'm not riding the bus home every day wondering what battle I needed to grade or which of the dozens threads I had open I could reply to, and I'd wager that many are the same way.

[Atzar]

Very helpful response, Sei.


There needs to be some incentive to Judge. Judging is tough and consumes a lot of time, and that's just not what a lot of people have these days.

It's not like it was 6 or 7 years ago when we were all in highschool, you know? I'm not riding the bus home every day wondering what battle I needed to grade or which of the dozens threads I had open I could reply to, and I'd wager that many are the same way.

I agree completely, and incidentally so does Dirks last I heard. He tried to push moderator rewards in the past, and it got some support, but it devolved into one of those "argue in circles until everybody gets tired of arguing and then nothing happens" things. I swear, that's the goal for some people here - beat the dead horse until everybody gets sick of it and walks away.

[Max Dirks]

I'm also trying to gather the money to register Althanas as a non-profit corporation in the United States. After, I'll apply for federal tax exemption under IRC 501(c). This way those who volunteer their time as judges on Althanas can use it as a deduction on their income taxes. Consider it a perk for the old guys.

[Aiko]

I tried to apply as a judge, but got turned down. Aside from work, I have nothing on my plate to do. No girlfriend, no offline friends, no wife, no children, no distractions of any kind at all what-so-ever.

I have enough free time to not only clear the backlog, but single-handedly judge every thread on this site twice without exception, including the archives.

[Duffy]

How is tax relief for American staff an incentive for the U.K ones :p?

[Yari Rafanas]

I know we're straying into scary grounds here by opening up another debate, but why not a monthly EXP bonus? Complete X amount of work in the month and receive X amount of EXP?

The site has given out EXP for less in the past and currently rewards non-canon writing with EXP every month.

Sounds easier than tax-related crap.

[Jack Frost]

I tried to apply as a judge, but got turned down. Aside from work, I have nothing on my plate to do. No girlfriend, no offline friends, no wife, no children, no distractions of any kind at all what-so-ever.

I have enough free time to not only clear the backlog, but single-handedly judge every thread on this site twice without exception, including the archives.

I'm just in school...
I could clear the backlog ten times over in about two months if I had to...

[Elrundir]

I think everyone feels that way before they actually become a judge. You never really anticipate just how draining it can actually be.

[Petoux]

I used to be a judge (not on this site a different one) and I absolutely agree with Elrundir. It can be one of the most draining thing or the easiest thing based on the thread(s) you have to judge.

Anyway ... back on topic.

I thought 3.0 was coming out Jan 6th. Delays?

[BlackAndBlueEyes]

@Jack

@Aiko

Most of the people who seem that eager to judge and make claims like that don't last. I used to be in those shoes. I thought I could clear the backlog as well. The thread I was given to test judge was the most long-winded, mediocre-written thread I had ever seen on this site. It wasn't a terrible thread by any means, but it was just bland and boring. I spent two hours reading, re-reading, and writing comments on it, and realized, "hey, I have better things I could be doing with my time. More pressing things, like school work and stuff. To, y'know, help me get the career I'm looking for. Or play video games."

Not everyone's cut out to be a judge, dudes.

[Petoux]

As far as rewards for judges, I completely agree with this. The tax idea won't work for everyone (like the ones in other country's as stated), but the experience for their character and/or gold might work better. Unless you can figure out a way to give them tax relief if they live in England for example (like Duffy Bracken?).

[Aiko]

@Jack

@Aiko

Most of the people who seem that eager to judge and make claims like that don't last. I used to be in those shoes. I thought I could clear the backlog as well. The thread I was given to test judge was the most long-winded, mediocre-written thread I had ever seen on this site. It wasn't a terrible thread by any means, but it was just bland and boring. I spent two hours reading, re-reading, and writing comments on it, and realized, "hey, I have better things I could be doing with my time. More pressing things, like school work and stuff. To, y'know, help me get the career I'm looking for. Or play video games."

Not everyone's cut out to be a judge, dudes.

But, I have nothing better to be doing with my time. Video games have reached a state in which they no longer interest me like they once did, and writing quality is irrelevant.

I'm not most people.

[Atzar]

But, I have nothing better to be doing with my time. Video games have reached a state in which they no longer interest me like they once did, and writing quality is irrelevant.

I'm not most people.

Judging's about more than just having enough time.

[Christoph]

What Atzar said. Also, I am totally in favor is -some- kind of compensation of judging. If they get nothing for judging it, why should judges bother, let alone bother to do a good job.

[Elochai]

@Aiko and Jack

I did clear the backlog.
Then I quit, after being burnt out. I too was like you; no school, no friends, no life practically to hold me down. But still, I got burnt out. I didn't even want to write any longer; after judging so many threads and dealing with all the moderator stuff, I just pushed myself away from Althanas and found myself a job, friends, and, well, a life.
I'm not "most" people either, Aiko, but we're not exactly Kings-of-the-Hill on the other hand. You will get burnt out, and you will hate yourself for doing so because you have all these ideas in your head and no will to write them down.
Hey, I'm just telling you this from a former Judge's experience. It's up to you if you take it or not as truth.

On the other hand, I too, like Lorenor, am disappointed with the RoG changes. Mostly, my thoughts echo Godhand's little speech a few pages back; especially on the part that I feel we're making people know just how utterly useless their characters are, rather than allowing them the illusion of strength. But hey, I'm not a mod now, so my voice is rather limited on the issue. The rubric I could give two shits about, but the RoG is one of the few things I enjoy on the site. Watching new members come in and post their new characters on here, and wondering to yourself, "huh. I wonder how so-and-so and my character would interact..." That's the sort of thing stories are born from. It's kind of hard to write stories, however, with other people when they're not there. Sure, they might stay a week or two, but eventually they'll lose the muse they once had when they came to Althanas and just POOF. Gone. Maybe they'll return. Most likely they won't.

Anyways, that's all I'm gonna say on the issue. Once 3.0 officially goes up I'll write up my new character and distribute my items amongst those who claimed them accordingly. I want to see how my new one fits in with these new guidelines and, if it goes well and I'm wrong, I'll stay. If not, well, expect to see me back in a year or so.

[Elrundir]

But, I have nothing better to be doing with my time. Video games have reached a state in which they no longer interest me like they once did, and writing quality is irrelevant.

I'm not most people.
We're not saying the same would definitely happen to you, or for the same reasons. We're just saying--from experience--that a lot of people sit on the outside and think about judging as a simple matter of having lots of time and (seemingly) nothing better to do with it, but when they actually get into the position of having to do it, it's a whole lot different than they thought. I certainly went through that, and I'm sure every judge who's ever passed through this site has as well. I mean, sometimes it can be hard enough to come up with a post for a thread that you're writing; reading a thread that happens not to make some sort of emotional connection with you (and I mean really reading, so as to reach a level where you can offer some sort of reasonable commentary) is surprisingly difficult.

Just sayin'. Nobody ever thinks it will happen until it does.

I like the idea of EXP/gold incentives for the judges, actually. I mean, just enough to reward the effort and work they put in (which is, of course, very important in keeping the site moving--people may well be less inclined to write and complete threads if they know it'll take a long time to get them judged, or are still waiting for ones to be judged from long ago), but not so much as to give them an unfair advantage. I'm sure this has been discussed before, but what were the arguments against it?

[Atzar]

There were concerns about it presenting an 'elitist' front, where mods have an advantage that ordinary members don't share.

There were concerns that mods shouldn't be provided IC benefits for OOC posts.

There was even a Miss America mentality among some people. "I don't need a reward... I do this to give back to my community" or something.

[Letho]

There were concerns that mods shouldn't be provided IC benefits for OOC posts.This was always my primary concern and the reason why I was always against such compensations not just for judges, but for mods in general. I'm not against benefits for people that do work for the site, but not such that mix with the IC part of the site. It was like back in the day when you could get GP for OOC bullshit like drawing. People drew some pictures, got a shitload of GP and bought fancy equipment at low levels just because they and not their character did something. Same thing can be applied to judging. You judge something, do it enough times and by some magic your character goes up a level and becomes stronger? :confused:

I'll always be against such benefits myself, and even if they are put in use, I would certainly opt not to reap them.

[Visla Eraclaire]

You already give IC rewards for OOC actions. The amount of XP given is based on the length and quality of writing, not how many dragons you slay. Visla has become a fairly powerful individual by getting knocked around, falling unconscious, and moping about a lot. In any standard RPG exp gaining format, she'd be level nothing.

That's not saying I agree with judge rewards, just that that particular objection is unfounded.

[Letho]

It is still related to your character, more specifically to your character's experience of whatever you're writing about, hence the name. We may not assign EXP for the specific feats that a character does, but we still assign it for the character's actions, regardless of how epic or mundane they might be. It's substantially different than awarding EXP to someone for doing an entirely OOC review of something entirely unrelated to their own character. But maybe that's just how I see the EXP system.

[Elrundir]

Well, there is the somewhat-murky topic of the vignettes to consider: even though they are technically IC, they can (as far as I understand) be the most wildly uncanonical things ever written and the characters will still get EXP, and possibly GP, for them. Not a lot, but the judges wouldn't have to get a lot either. I would amend my earlier statement and say that I like the idea of rewarding them with EXP more than with GP, because GP is more tangible in much smaller amounts than EXP is.

I'm not strongly for or against the idea, I'm just trying to think of ideas if people perceive judging activity as a problem (again, haven't been back long enough to say much for that one way or the other). The tax incentives are an interesting idea but don't benefit any judges who a) don't pay taxes for whatever reason (which admittedly may be a small population, since the average Althanian is getting older), or b) don't live in the U.S. (and if memory serves, there are quite a few of us around). If encouraging activity is the goal, then I think dangling some kind of carrot is the best option; you can't really light a fire under the judges (i.e., you have to be more active or you're out) unless you think you have a steady population of them, because many of them may very well decide they don't have time for it after all and they should move on from that position.

Just thinking aloud is all.

[Christoph]

I agree with Visla. While Althanas still uses an RPG of sorts as a medium, it's just as much a writing site. How a character advances in terms of the site's mechanics doesn't matter; it's still up to that player to describe the means and nature of the character's advancement. In my case, I like portraying character growth -within- a thread, rather than in between (most people grow and change while being tested, not in between being tested).

[Elochai]

@Letho.

I think the XP/Gold rewards would work for Judges. Think about it; a very small, rare percentage of people write out every single moment in their character's life. I know, sure as hell, that I haven't, yet those moments still exist that have influenced and changed my character. For example, in my writing I often reflect back upon the time in Anglekos's previous life in Saleria, despite the fact that I hadn't written an actual story or roleplayed in that realm at all. Does this mean that his experiences are any less important because of that? No. In fact, as I wrote him, those experiences encompassed him, to the point where he was willing to sacrifice his soul to return something from those days back to reality.

The same thing could be said for other characters. We, as a general rule, write out the points in their lives that we want to. Do we explain how we somehow managed to gather 200 gold pieces to be used in the bazaar, a set amount that is given upon starting? Sometimes, yes, but I've found that very few actually roleplay that out to the point where it is something tangible to be seen and Judged.

So I support the gathering of EXP and Gold for judging. Judging is hard work; both mentally and emotionally, sometimes. They certainly need SOME kind of incentive, and giving them the little boost of exp here or gold there will not only be moralizing, it will also justify their little experiences in their IC lives that normal members do not get.

[BlackAndBlueEyes]

I'm curious as to why an upgrade in vBulletin software was necessary for Althanas 3.0 to happen.

On that note, these two default themes blow. The standard one burns my eyes and the banner for "dark" makes me feel like I'm playing in a cut-rate Inception role-play.

[Duffy]

The software, I'd assume, required an update to work with the plethora of new hacks Max has implemented into the software to make Althanas work, run and play smoother.

As for the themes, there is time, and i rather like Dark.

[Max Dirks]

The switch to vB4 was because vB3 was a) insecure (you didn't know, but we've been hacked three times in the past four months); b) slow (because adding hacks to the old system severly limited forum speed); c) had no SPAM protection, just what Serilliant made up (now, with the appropriate tweaks I can prevent SPAM users as well as SPAM posts); and d) did not have social media integration, which helps us to advertise VIA facebook, twitter, using RSS feeds and more.

Styles are easy to find, but rather than choose basic ones for people like you to complain about, I left the choice of new styles to the players. If you don't like what's here, participate in the style contest.

[Esmerelda]

What are the bounties about?

[Max Dirks]

Characters can gain varying reputations amongst different groups by performing certain tasks. Then, if you're a good character the bad might place bounties on you or if you're a bad character, the good might place bounties on you. Cross a clan? The same is true. We'll keep track of your reputation and the running bounty on your character (some are regions based, others are what other PCs or PGs place on you). If you post in an open thread, you're fair game to be hunted. You can also plan battles against bounty hunters. If that person scores higher than you, they claim a system "bounty" which is a portion of the actual bounty. If that person kills your character, they claim the actual bounty.

Cool huh?

[Hysteria]

Character power levels will be determined by an ability progression chart. Each ability submitted will be assigned a power level using the following chart:

1) Weak
2) Below Average
3) Average
4) Above Average
5) Somewhat Strong
6) Strong
7) Very Strong
8) Super Strong
9) Strongest
10) Innate

Expect more details on the final release. Each level, from 1 to 15 has been assigned an average power level. Average power levels are on a bell curve that favor lower leveled characters over higher leveled characters (i.e. you gain more going from level 1 to 2 than 14 to 15). Submitted abilities will be averaged and as long as they fall at or below the average power level, they will be allowed.

Has anything more come about this? Like what the average is for each level? If not (understandably given the other changes) is there an estimate on when?

[Max Dirks]

You really don't need to worry about that.

In fact, after review, I probably shouldn't even have posted that at all. It's just an internal method used to ensure that all level zero profiles and updates are uniform. Put simply: it makes sure Numbers approves the same abilities at level 5 that I do.

[Rayse Valentino]

It's hard to see the thread titles in the 'new posts' window using the dark theme, because it's black on dark gray.

[Hysteria]

You really don't need to worry about that.

In fact, after review, I probably shouldn't even have posted that at all. It's just an internal method used to ensure that all level zero profiles and updates are uniform. Put simply: it makes sure Numbers approves the same abilities at level 5 that I do.

It would still be nice to know roughly the skills that each level can have for when you update your character. Is that possible?

[Max Dirks]

Right now ROG moderators are adding abilities to our list when they come up. I think that after we've had roughly 50 to 100 more profiles go through, we can add an update guide.

[Revenant]

Well, the Boss Battles section is up and running. I'll be posting more bosses soon and I encourage everyone to put their idea into the Boss Submissions thread. Please let me know what questions/comments that you might have as we try to get this new concept system up and running.