The Judging Problem or: How I Missed The Forest For The Trees.

[Rayse Valentino]

Disclaimer: If the views expressed in this post offend, please scroll through it and ignore the content. If you're that short-sighted that you have to personalize everything, then this isn't for you, as there's no discussion to be had with such a person.

List format, because why not?

1) Back in my day... or rather, how it all started. My memory is hazy so maybe I'll lay it on, but you can just deal with it. Why did people first become judges? You can assume that people who want to be judges already read other people's threads. The ones that didn't before becoming judges, surprise, don't last very long! If you didn't read other people's threads before becoming one, chances are you're not going to suddenly gain an interest in it as a judge.

a) There was, I think, a vetting process. Judges didn't really apply, it was more of a case that you'd look for judges. First you check if they're good, then you check if they're active. I assume a lot of people were asked to be judges and refused, while others accepted. The potential pool was everyone, and it assured a level of quality writing on the staff. Does it make sense to you that judges are giving out scores that they themselves have not achieved? What qualifies them to know that something is better than them but being unable to do it themselves? Worse yet, underscoring a thread when they don't understand the finer points of it or miss certain things. That brings me to my next point.

b) People on the staff wrote!!! Just about everyone, even Santh for a while. Of course, for a while the site was still relatively new so it wouldn't make sense to have a bunch of non-writers joining up the site just so they can be on the staff and not write, but the atmosphere was different. People like Redrick were given regions to play with, and essentially were the first Canon Masters. It's strange to see so many people dole out administrative decrees but don't actually participate in the community. Which brings me to how it relates to judging: The judges wrote and judged, which gave them not only a vested stake in the judging process, but they put out a certain standard that they expected other judges to meet.

2) Retention. The big problem of judges. It's strange that people go through the trouble of applying and then give up, knowing exactly what they're getting into, on the outside. The truth is, they don't know what they're getting into. I'll get the most controversial issue out of the way first.

a) Judges are getting driven out. Don't deny it. This site probably has more ex-staff than active players. People become judges because they have an interest in this site, its quality, and believe they have what it takes to make a difference. Some are passionate, really trying to give the most accurate assessment of a thread with criticism. What happens when they finally get to see behind the scenes? They're asked for their input, and then that input is shredded into a million pieces and thrown to the wind. Their stock in the site is meaningless to the board of directors. There is an agenda in place, and judges are powerless to stop it. A feeling creeps in that they're being used, that they're just cogs of a machine, and not actual contributors to the site. Judges are far more valuable and important than administrators, but they're treated as little more than players. The way the administrators have acted towards judges the entire history of this site is appalling. There's a very long list of the nicest people in the world who have quit and refused to say why, or just left to never return. The non-writers should be almost worshiping the writers, the ones that make this place work, but there's this top-level attitude of self-importance that drives people away.

b) The workload. Due to the constant shortage of judges, new ones are being asked to do way more than they expected. Claiming that they have a lot of time beforehand isn't enough, as there's always a never-ending backlog to go through. This ties into the lack of vetting process as well. If a new judge is incapable of producing the level of works that they're judging, how would they accurately assess it? They would run into problems, and make the whole process take that much longer. Worse yet, they could just give up and give the most basic judging possible. When I see judging that is just a list of numbers, why bother? What does that contribute to this site? Even these lazy judges (Santh did this a lot) eventually burned out, after destroying the score potential of perfectly reasonable threads, or they would give out absurdly high values for no reason. That brings me to my next point.

c) No oversight. Once a thread is judged, the case is closed. It doesn't matter how awful the judging was, there's a backlog to go through. There's a whole slew of problems with the sacred cow of a completed judging. How does this affect retention rates? The other judges who actually give a proper review ask themselves why they bother when they're the only ones. Judge favoritism starts, and the popular judges get swamped with specific requests. It's no wonder Call Me J vanished, he was getting asked to do everything for a while. Maybe this is more of a workload point, but oh well. I'm not even going to go into the conflict of interests. Friends judging other friends, writers using a certain style that appeals to a certain judge, et cetra.

3) The Process. I saved the actual judging procedure for last. It's an issue as well, but I wanted to take in the other factors as well.

a) The rubric. I'll get this out of the way first. People have been clamoring about the fairness of the rubric to accurately assess a thread based on some ambiguous categories, but, well, they miss the forest for the trees, as the title suggests. The problem with the rubric is not its fairness, but how hard it is for a job to do their job with it. The idea of slogging through a thread and then remembering it all to assign scores and commentary is really repugnant. Here, I'll make a suggestion: Base the rubric around the judge's progression of the thread. We used to have categories like introduction and climax. Pacing is good. Have the judge be working on the assessment as the thread progresses, so that by the end there's only a couple of unfilled categories, the generic ones like persona/character and action. Not only will judging become much faster, but it will be more accurate. Is it less fair? Maybe, as the start of the thread could score much worse than the middle or end, but it would make the process a hell of a lot easier and faster. Design the rubric around the judges, not the players, and you'll see higher accuracy and effort. Speaking of which...

b) Effort. How much time does a judge expect to put into a thread? There's the long, case-by-case analysis that you'd see from Ataraxis or Witchblade with improper phrasing and examination of the thread's progression, or... well... a bunch of numbers with no words. Overwork and lack of oversight fit into why there's so many types of judging, but it all boils down to how much effort a judge wants to spend on a particular judging. How do we stop these no-effort travesties? Well, introduce a vetting process, to select people who know what they're doing, or make judging more of a collaboration. Let's say you must select judges who aren't insta-JC makers. Fair enough. However, a pre-requisite of judging is that you enjoy reading other people's threads enough to critique them. Reading a thread doesn't take very long, judging it is the time-consuming part. Have other judges skim through and give the judge in question a small review of a couple lines or more that express their feelings on the thread, and the judge can then use these as a guideline. The worst case, they'll go with a consensus of the other judges and base their scores around that. The best case, they'll use the reviews to deepen their understanding and increase the accuracy of the judgment. I'd like to hear other ideas, though.

b some more) A sub-point of this is judges who exert a lot of effort failing to see the point of what they're doing when other judges can get away doing the bare minimum.

c) Harsh judging. I want to bring this back. Not outright mocking, but there needs to be less of the compliments and more of the criticisms. The entire point of the system was to improve ourselves and others, to bring us all up to a point where we feel that we're truly making something interesting and worth other people's time. Not only does this have the effect of improving the quality of the site, but it improves the quality and ease of the judging. It's easier to judge a good thread. To actually enjoy what you're reading, instead of sitting there and groaning. I've seen old judging of very good threads that were filled with nothing but criticisms, even though they made it to JCs. That's what we need.

Anyway, that's it. I think more can be said of how judges are treated on the staff and how the site is run in general, but other people know more about that stuff than I do.

[Atzar]

I don’t necessarily think the judges are mistreated, at least not by the administration. On the contrary, there have been a couple of attempts by the admins to start some sort of compensation system. Unfortunately, a few people have never been in favor of said system, and their disapproval has generally been loud enough to keep anything from happening.

Without compensation, there’s just no real way to make judging anything but an awful job to have. As you’ve said, judges react to the workload in two ways: they either force themselves to do it until they burn out, or they simply don’t put any real effort into it. I’ve yet to see anybody who didn’t fit into one of those two categories sooner or later.

I'll leave it at that until I see where this thread goes.

[Max Dirks]

I only take offense to one part:


The way the administrators have acted towards judges the entire history of this site is appalling.Since you used a list, I find it appropriate to do the same. Here's a list of the things I've done to help judge retention and workload in the past year alone: I attempted to pay judges in EXP and GP. Rather than just do it, I asked the entire staff and site for input. The general attitude was "no, I'm a volunteer, I do not want to be paid..." When I decided to do it anyway, every moderator and judge opted out. Luckily it seems that the idea of paying staffers in EXP and GP is making a comeback, so maybe we'll have that incentive too. I introduced the condensed rubric. I did this for a number of different reasons. First, a player who knowingly chose the condensed rubric knew that they would not be getting Ataraxis-styled line by line judgments. It would, in fact, just be a quick read of the thread with some general comments. In the public, we advertised this to appeal to the "gamers" of Althanas, but in reality I just had the judges in mind. Second, this broke the continuity of the rubric to, as you said, allow judges to grade the thread as it progressed. Now, unfortunately I learned only about a month ago that judges were still doing Ataraxis-styled line by line judgments on the condensed rubric. I've put a stop to that. Now, if you choose this method you're actually helping the judge. I added the Workshop option. I wish it was more popular than it is now. Players get the desired commentary from other players, freeing up judges to read the thread, assign numbers (to the condensed rubric, no less) and go. The Workshop is the single most effective means of reducing the backlog, but very few of the players on the site are using it. So use it, and help judges out. I changed the internal judging procedure. When you were on staff, Rayse, you "claimed" a thread and then were at it. Sometimes a thread could be claimed for two months before someone would notice it hadn't been done yet. Now, the Head Judge assigns all judgments to the regular judges. He assigns threads based on four things: the length of the thread, the desired amount of commentary, player preferred judge, and how many other threads a judge has. This last assignment criteria helps prevent judges from feeling overrun by the backlog. It helps immensely with retention. It'll be even more beneficial when I have more judges to spread work amongst. With the help of Silence Sei, I have developed a training system that focuses on identifying writing techniques. Then, unless they are a returning veteran, we don't force them into long threads. We begin by judging the easy stuff in Underwood, advance them to workshops and condensed judgments, then they move to full commentary jobs in Althanas proper, finally, the most veteran judges handle competitive RP. This allows those eager to be judges, who aren't the best writers, to be hired and developed.Everything I've done can be traced to one "master agenda:" making things easier on judges so that they can actively participate on the site more.

Guess you didn't stop to think about any of that, did you?

[Christoph]

The bottom line is that in judging, as with everything else, you get what you pay for in the long run. As Dirks and others well know, I've always been a proponent of paying judges at LEAST in EXP and GP. If they're not getting anything out of it, altruism will only go so far before quality and productivity slips. Thus, pay judges. Ask for donations, put up some small ads (not sure how much the site would get, but every little bit helps, and I personally don't mind ads in the slightest) -- whatever it takes. If you want high quality judging (in my opinion, the site NEEDS consistent, high quality judging to be as successful as we all want), you have to pay the judges, and also expect higher standards from the judges in return.

[~Humphrey_Nonyton~]

@Rayse-Let's make one thing perfectly clear Rayse. I don't like you. I don't respect you, I don't think you're doing anything constructive on the site. However, you bring up some very valid points. I was a judge quite recently, as a matter of fact, I was a judge several times on the site with my Lorenor account. I recall that I was judging threads with fairly decent judgments (In my honest opinion) but I also recall that towards the end, I started to burn out. I don't know WHY it was that I burned out, but I just know I DID burn out. My judgments started taking over a month to complete, and I was gonna judge one last thread, but like, I couldn't even complete that one so I had my superiors take care of it.

I think part of the problem is that so much is expected of Judges. I think that I like the current system of judging for one respect: for the most part, judges are fair. To be honest Rayse, I think that harsh judging actually ruined the quality of Althanas. Harsh judging is just someone's negative opinion of your hard work. If I crunched out a 100-post thread with some of my favorite rp'ers and waited months for a judgment, only to get destroyed by negative commentary, I'd be pretty t'd off. I know for a fact some of my newbie buddies used to complain about the harsh criticism they would receive from certain folk. So in my opinion, leave judging styles up to the judge in question. Harsh judgments don't help, they hurt. I can think of one specific player who had a nervous breakdown after one judgment he read that was particularly bad.

I can also think of several situations between players (Including myself) that involved various Althanas happens where people broke down, again, harsh judgments were the culprits. This isn't a preference thing, this is a morality thing. I don't want to be bashed by some asshole (Pardon my French) just cause he THINKS he doesn't like my writing style. I can think of several judges off the back of my hand who have harshly criticized my work in the past over really stupid shit. If I sound angry it's cause I am. In a nut-shell Rayse, you have tried to break down 10 years of hard work that Judges and fellow rpers have done over that time period. All though I personally don't like you, I will say that you DO bring up some valid points. However, your suggestions are not entirely on point here.

Case in point, "bring back the harsh criticisms." Really dude? Really? They have done nothing but really hurt player's feelings. I'm not saying that as a former Judge we're here to hold player's hands, but you can critique someone without being a complete and total douche about it. That's just my opinion if you don't like it you know where you can go.

***

@Dirks-Tony it's good to see some added things being done to the judging corp. I was one of the few Moderators who supported the exp/gp payment idea. As I have -never- been a supporter of getting a salary for judging. Judging has, and should always be a volunteer job. So Cristoph, though you are my friend, I am going to have to disagree with you. Paying a salary would only create a further disgruntled workforce, cause there will always be judges who are more active than others. Then, secondly, who gets to decide the AMOUNT of money someone gets paid for thread? If you're talking about a minimum wage paying job, then where would the money come from? Althanas is a non-profit, it's staff is volunteer work corps. Anyway I'll continue the discussion when more people post.

Rayse don't take any of this personal. You -know- I don't like you. I've never made that a mystery. So just deal dude.

[Atzar]

I think part of the problem is that so much is expected of Judges. I think that I like the current system of judging for one respect: for the most part, judges are fair. To be honest Rayse, I think that harsh judging actually ruined the quality of Althanas. Harsh judging is just someone's negative opinion of your hard work. If I crunched out a 100-post thread with some of my favorite rp'ers and waited months for a judgment, only to get destroyed by negative commentary, I'd be pretty t'd off. I know for a fact some of my newbie buddies used to complain about the harsh criticism they would receive from certain folk. So in my opinion, leave judging styles up to the judge in question. Harsh judgments don't help, they hurt. I can think of one specific player who had a nervous breakdown after one judgment he read that was particularly bad.

I can also think of several situations between players (Including myself) that involved various Althanas happens where people broke down, again, harsh judgments were the culprits. This isn't a preference thing, this is a morality thing. I don't want to be bashed by some asshole (Pardon my French) just cause he THINKS he doesn't like my writing style. I can think of several judges off the back of my hand who have harshly criticized my work in the past over really stupid shit. If I sound angry it's cause I am. In a nut-shell Rayse, you have tried to break down 10 years of hard work that Judges and fellow rpers have done over that time period. All though I personally don't like you, I will say that you DO bring up some valid points. However, your suggestions are not entirely on point here.

Case in point, "bring back the harsh criticisms." Really dude? Really? They have done nothing but really hurt player's feelings. I'm not saying that as a former Judge we're here to hold player's hands, but you can critique someone without being a complete and total douche about it. That's just my opinion if you don't like it you know where you can go.


I think this is a matter of opinion, rather than a black-and-white issue here. I understand that some people don't want to be barbecued when they submit a thread for judgment. Some people do. I prefer pointed criticism, personally. If I score a 63, I don't want the judge to spend the majority of the judgment stroking my ego. I want to know how I can get better. I want to know how I can get better than a 63 on my next thread. I do want to know what I did that worked well so I know to use it in the future, but more than anything I want to improve.

I don't necessarily think anything needs to be done about this, personally - when submitting a judgment, the comment box is there for a reason. If you prefer praise and constructive criticism, tell the judge. If you prefer to be tossed into a blazing inferno so the impurities can burn away, tell the judge. I tend towards the latter.

[Lord Anglekos]

I have to say I disagree, Lore/Humphrey.
Personally, I've found that harsh judgments bring out the best in people. When a judge is completely honest about the thread they're reading, I've found it makes the writers really look at themselves in a new light. Sure, you might get pissed off or even leave for a bit, but all in all it helps you grow. I remember back in the day when I wrote threads that would have made Dragonball Z look like Ranma 1/2, and I got slammed for it. Yeah, I was hurt. Yeah, it wasn't my favorite thing in the world to look back upon, but I have to say it helped me grow into the writer I am today. And I think anyone here will say that I'm a much different writer than I was two years ago.
So, Rayse, I (second? Third? Whatever.) your plea for harsher judging. Although, as Atzar said, there is now the comment box.

[Duffy]

I have to say, as a player, despite feeling like shit at the time, the plethora of overly harsh judgements I received during the first eight months or so have certainly helped me develop as a writer. I think there's always the danger of familiarisation and friendship and not wanting to hurt another's feelings with this sort of 'work,' but you've provided some well worded food for thought Rayse, at least in my mind :).

[Petoux]

Since we are talking about judging here, this relates (kind of).

I personally think its bull - crap that a thread submitted November 23rd, 2010 10:15 AM has STILL not been judged yet (thank god it's actually being taking care of now ... supposedly).

I'm not trying to be mean, disrespectful, or not understanding of the phrase "shit happens", but honestly ... almost two months now? Ridiculous.

I'm sorry, but it is. I appreciate that it is being taken care of, really I do, but members (or whoever else) should NEVER under ANY circumstances (unless that judge dies, it's a holiday, or family issues) should someone wait almost 2 months for one thread to be judged. You will lose members that way.

Again, no offense of any kind meant ... and yes, I understand from a judges perspective (I used to be one myself on a different forum) but 2 months? No excuse, sorry.

[Elrundir]

I don't think harsh judgments are much more beneficial than sugar-coated ones (except in that they at least do point out the flaws), especially to new players, who are much more likely to be discouraged from ever writing here again when they receive one. Mind you, it's not like there isn't a middle-ground between them. Constructive criticism isn't exactly rocket science.

[Silence Sei]

I'm sorry, but it is. I appreciate that it is being taken care of, really I do, but members (or whoever else) should NEVER under ANY circumstances (unless that judge dies, it's a holiday, or family issues) should someone wait almost 2 months for one thread to be judged. You will lose members that way.



Thanksgiving, Chirstmas, and New Years aren't holidays anymore?

Secondly, part of the reason you've had to wait two months is because the judge who had been assigned your thread came across problems accsessing Althanas at work (They had installed a new firewall, one that wouldn't let him log in, and thats where he spent a majority of his Althy-time).

Secondly, said judge has, as this thread pointed out, got burnt out on having to do so many judgements. He resigned over a week ago, and your thread was reassigned and IS being done.

I don't appreciate attacks on my people when they have valid excuses for not being able to do what they're supposed to do. If you need to know what the deal is with a particular judge, shoot them an IM/PM, if they don't answer for whatever reason, shoot -me- one and I'll find out for you.

I've held my tongue on this thread because I understand that there are always going to be judgement issues, so who am I, as Head Judge, to tell you to be patient and we'll get to it?

First of all, out of all the backlog we're currently dealing with, over half the threads done involve mine or my wifes characters. There has been stuff there that had indeed been waiting for almost two months. My thread had to also get reassigned due to the previously mentioned judge's resigning.

Am I complaining about it? No. Is stuff being done about it? Yes. Our judging staff is currently short-staffed to handle your issues, so we'll try and get to it sooner rather than later, but you must understand that we are currently having some staffing issues ourselves, but even if it burns me out, I will clear the queue of non-Sei related threads.

Thank you. I'm still reserving my opinions on Rayse's comments.

[Saxon]

Rayse actually brought up some good points for being an angsty twirp. But hey, I love how people completely honed in on him immediately when they realized one of two things;

1) Its coming from Rayse.

2) Whether or not you agree with it, its coming from Rayse.

Love the stigmatism by people regardless of where they're at in the pecking order. The only thing that makes it better is that everybody here has battered wife syndrome in varying degrees with how much they've had their asses handed in them in the past by the troolz that they feel the need to scorch the earth whenever something comes up, regardless of whether or not they agree with it if you're hated enough.

Also, to add some flavor to this, I'll put in a few hot button words to get some blood fired up since Max skims rather then reads posts in their entirety. The Administration. Staff. Knuckle draggers. Althanas 3.0. Rayse. Trolls. IC compensation. Taskmienster. Nordic rage. Saxon. Compensation system. Voting. Democracy. Ownership. Judges. Jersey Shore. Shit. Max Dirks. Draconian. Bannable. Godhand. Master debater. Visla.

[Max Dirks]

Also, to add some flavor to this, I'll put in a few hot button words to get some blood fired up since Max skims rather then reads posts in their entirety.I'm sure anyone who read my reply thoroughly would see that I only had issue with one thing Rayse said, as it was completely wrong. I have no comment on anything else.

[Atzar]

Thanksgiving, Chirstmas, and New Years aren't holidays anymore?

Secondly, part of the reason you've had to wait two months is because the judge who had been assigned your thread came across problems accsessing Althanas at work (They had installed a new firewall, one that wouldn't let him log in, and thats where he spent a majority of his Althy-time).

Secondly, said judge has, as this thread pointed out, got burnt out on having to do so many judgements. He resigned over a week ago, and your thread was reassigned and IS being done.

I don't appreciate attacks on my people when they have valid excuses for not being able to do what they're supposed to do. If you need to know what the deal is with a particular judge, shoot them an IM/PM, if they don't answer for whatever reason, shoot -me- one and I'll find out for you.

I've held my tongue on this thread because I understand that there are always going to be judgement issues, so who am I, as Head Judge, to tell you to be patient and we'll get to it?

First of all, out of all the backlog we're currently dealing with, over half the threads done involve mine or my wifes characters. There has been stuff there that had indeed been waiting for almost two months. My thread had to also get reassigned due to the previously mentioned judge's resigning.

Am I complaining about it? No. Is stuff being done about it? Yes. Our judging staff is currently short-staffed to handle your issues, so we'll try and get to it sooner rather than later, but you must understand that we are currently having some staffing issues ourselves, but even if it burns me out, I will clear the queue of non-Sei related threads.

Thank you. I'm still reserving my opinions on Rayse's comments.

Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years are indeed holidays. The month between Thanksgiving and Christmas, however, wasn't.

It was my understanding, Sei, that it was your responsibility to take care of issues like these. Judges are going to have issues where they need somebody to step in - nobody expects perfection. At the same time, I thought one of your responsibilities was to either reassign late threads, or to take care of them yourself. I thought you were supposed to be the stopgap, the last line of defense before a judgment becomes unacceptably late (as this one has).

Nobody is 'attacking your people', as you put it. Petoux is just asking for some measure of accountability which, two months late, is not an unreasonable request.

On a personal note, I'd also appreciate it if you could address Rayse's comments. Keeping disagreements to yourself helps nobody. That was one of my biggest irritations with the staff in general before I left. There were people who argued in circles, people who delivered ultimatums, people who added nothing to the discussion at hand and people who simply ignored posts rather than articulate their concerns. It all added up to an absolute lack of any constructive argument.

[Cydnar]

As one who's just left the position of judge due to the constraints placed on my be external factors, I can certainly echo the sentiment that this last month has been an exceptionally difficult and hard time, for me personally, and from what I gather, many others too (on this site and in the wider environ of 'the real world'). I'm not going to sit here and write a languishingly long explanation and counter point to each of Rayse's arguments, nor jump to anyone's defence because I don't know them well enough to ascert whether or not they're telling the truth or have simply been apathetic or unconcerned.

There are one or two things I do feel the need to say however:

1. With dwindling resources, any operation becomes stretched. Staff losses (of which many here are accountable) and the reduction of productivity from seasonal and health effects make it incredibly strained on the remainder.

2. The transition from 2nd to 3rd undoubtedly was the black sheep in the equation. Guiltily I can't see how it wouldn't steal attention from the day to day machinations. Should it have done? No. Did it? Yes. I can't defend or refute that eventuality, but it is interesting to note that despite the extended down time of the site, the abusive tone of X or Y member and the constant remunerations about clarity, foresight and openness placed on the moderating team, this issue only comes to late when it reaches absolute breaking point (though rightfully in this case so).

This is not the first time this has happened, nor will it be the last. I am expressively apologetic for the circumstances which lead to the delay in judgement delivery, I truly am, but taking the tone of 'it shouldn't keep you that busy' is only going to rile us to feel more disinclined to commit to the voluntary positions we have undertaken. This does not mean we take the role any less serious, (some might, others won't, many more through time will no doubt slack in that regard) so rest assured that this temporary state of affairs you have seen during the winter is just that.

Temporary.

[Atzar]

As one who's just left the position of judge due to the constraints placed on my be external factors, I can certainly echo the sentiment that this last month has been an exceptionally difficult and hard time, for me personally, and from what I gather, many others too (on this site and in the wider environ of 'the real world'). I'm not going to sit here and write a languishingly long explanation and counter point to each of Rayse's arguments, nor jump to anyone's defence because I don't know them well enough to ascert whether or not they're telling the truth or have simply been apathetic or unconcerned.

There are one or two things I do feel the need to say however:

1. With dwindling resources, any operation becomes stretched. Staff losses (of which many here are accountable) and the reduction of productivity from seasonal and health effects make it incredibly strained on the remainder.

2. The transition from 2nd to 3rd undoubtedly was the black sheep in the equation. Guiltily I can't see how it wouldn't steal attention from the day to day machinations. Should it have done? No. Did it? Yes. I can't defend or refute that eventuality, but it is interesting to note that despite the extended down time of the site, the abusive tone of X or Y member and the constant remunerations about clarity, foresight and openness placed on the moderating team, this issue only comes to late when it reaches absolute breaking point (though rightfully in this case so).

This is not the first time this has happened, nor will it be the last. I am expressively apologetic for the circumstances which lead to the delay in judgement delivery, I truly am, but taking the tone of 'it shouldn't keep you that busy' is only going to rile us to feel more disinclined to commit to the voluntary positions we have undertaken. This does not mean we take the role any less serious, (some might, others won't, many more through time will no doubt slack in that regard) so rest assured that this temporary state of affairs you have seen during the winter is just that.

Temporary.

I understand that things come up. Trust me, I've been there. I understand that you won't always be able to jump all over threads as quickly as you'd like. Things come up in real life, holidays take priority, other staff duties take priority.

But two months is too long.

[Silence Sei]

I understand that things come up. Trust me, I've been there. I understand that you won't always be able to jump all over threads as quickly as you'd like. Things come up in real life, holidays take priority, other staff duties take priority.

But two months is too long.

I feel like each of the judges are almost being called out at this moment, and while you guys are more than welcome to direct any anger over the backlog (which is almost cleared btw, thanks for asking.) at myself, I also think you guys need to understand who your judging staff is just a bit better.

Sei - Family, two kids, the holidays with two families and his own, working on a job, and STILL judging while trying to do 3.0 stuff as well. Oh yeah, and a wife in a wheelchair.

Duffy - college student, spent most of his time getting ready for exams, and then went off to see his family for Christmas.

Rev - A newborn daughter, a job that prevents him from signing on Althanas as much as he used to, as well as the first Christmas holidays with his new family.

Out of respect for Z, unless he asks me to, I'll keep his holiday to myself.

TB: Hasn't had a comp for a while of his own, furthermore, he's a features mod who was just helping on the side, so judging isn't even his thing, totally absolved of any of this.

Drago: Another student who actually had to go across state lines to visit family, and someone I know pours his all into EVERY judgement he makes, regardless of condensed or full rubric.

You of all people should understand how hard it is to keep up sometimes as I remember you and I having an argument of sorts about it shortly before you left the staff. I cannot personally handle EVERY thread, especially when the backlog is two pages. We have been grinding out judgments as fast as we can since since shortly before Christmas, but to be honest we haven't had the man power to get caught up yet. Out of the current backlog only 4 of the threads am I not a part of, and I have been patiently awaiting judgements for two months just like everyone else.

Was it right to have to wait two months? No. I'm not defending our inability to keep up, I'm just explaining why it happened. Petoux had every right to bring attention to an issue he was having. Atzar, I haven't even seen your name in the queue for a very long time. Petoux is a big boy and he handled his own problem well enough to not require your assistance. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I do feel that only two people have a right to complain about their threads at the moment and you are not one of them. Petoux made his comment, I responded, and he and I resolved the issue via PM, where it needed to be handled.

And I am in no way saying I'm ignoring Rayse's comments, I just haven't really taken the time to type up a reply about them, and since I am typing this at Jessica's store I will work on that when I get home.

[Saxon]

I feel like each of the judges are almost being called out at this moment, and while you guys are more than welcome to direct any anger over the backlog (which is almost cleared btw, thanks for asking.) at myself, I also think you guys need to understand who your judging staff is just a bit better.

Sei - Family, two kids, the holidays with two families and his own, working on a job, and STILL judging while trying to do 3.0 stuff as well. Oh yeah, and a wife in a wheelchair.

Duffy - college student, spent most of his time getting ready for exams, and then went off to see his family for Christmas.

Rev - A newborn daughter, a job that prevents him from signing on Althanas as much as he used to, as well as the first Christmas holidays with his new family.

Out of respect for Z, unless he asks me to, I'll keep his holiday to myself.

TB: Hasn't had a comp for a while of his own, furthermore, he's a features mod who was just helping on the side, so judging isn't even his thing, totally absolved of any of this.

Drago: Another student who actually had to go across state lines to visit family, and someone I know pours his all into EVERY judgement he makes, regardless of condensed or full rubric.

You of all people should understand how hard it is to keep up sometimes as I remember you and I having an argument of sorts about it shortly before you left the staff. I cannot personally handle EVERY thread, especially when the backlog is two pages. We have been grinding out judgments as fast as we can since since shortly before Christmas, but to be honest we haven't had the man power to get caught up yet. Out of the current backlog only 4 of the threads am I not a part of, and I have been patiently awaiting judgements for two months just like everyone else.

Was it right to have to wait two months? No. I'm not defending our inability to keep up, I'm just explaining why it happened. Petoux had every right to bring attention to an issue he was having. Atzar, I haven't even seen your name in the queue for a very long time. Petoux is a big boy and he handled his own problem well enough to not require your assistance. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I do feel that only two people have a right to complain about their threads at the moment and you are not one of them. Petoux made his comment, I responded, and he and I resolved the issue via PM, where it needed to be handled.

And I am in no way saying I'm ignoring Rayse's comments, I just haven't really taken the time to type up a reply about them, and since I am typing this at Jessica's store I will work on that when I get home.


I understand that things come up. Trust me, I've been there. I understand that you won't always be able to jump all over threads as quickly as you'd like. Things come up in real life, holidays take priority, other staff duties take priority.

But two months is too long.

Reading this side-by-side, you're coming up short and looking like a dick, Atzar. How're you gonna spin these plates with a woman in a wheelchair and gay men going across state lines lookin' for love?

Just how will he argue this and still come out smellin' like roses? Whose Max's illegitimate father? Whatever happened to the Lindburg Baby? Will Jack Frost find love in all the wrong places? And who the FUCK is Yari Rafanas?!

All these questions and more... on...


ALTHANAS! .. 3.0.

STAY TUNED, ALTHANIANS!

[Jack Frost]

Well seeing as the thread has dissolved into trolling I'd like to get a word in edgewise.

1.) My prayers are with all of our judges.
2.) Saxon could you just for once cut back your incessant need to stir up more fights than necessary. You have great points, but we don't need you stirring up a shit ton of fights. We have Visla for that.
3.) If what Max told was true, begging to be trolled is considered trolling, hence most of us in here probably deserve a warning of sorts, but that's not my place, just throwin it out there.
4.) I had a big rant, but Fuck it, it'll just get scanned and the most trivial parts will be picked out and commented on. So here's your little it you'll focus on. Harsh judging sucks dick, I'm new, I don't want to be bludgeoned to death because Stupid fucking spell check doesn't know how to spell orichalkum. Its my third story with the character, I won't have how I want him exactly hammered out. Anything I've done with him in the past is moot because I involved Jack with two characters who vanished off the face of the earth.
5.) Time to sink back into the shadows and watch...

[Atzar]

Reading this side-by-side, you're coming up short and looking like a dick, Atzar. How're you gonna spin these plates with a woman in a wheelchair and gay men going across state lines lookin' for love?

Just how will he argue this and still come out smellin' like roses? Whose Max's illegitimate father? Whatever happened to the Lindburg Baby? Will Jack Frost find love in all the wrong places? And who the FUCK is Yari Rafanas?!

All these questions and more... on...


ALTHANAS! .. 3.0.

STAY TUNED, ALTHANIANS!

Hahahaha... Post of the year.

I had a post typed up, ready to keep the ball rolling and continue the argument. But you know what? Fuck it. Saxon's got it right: giving a shit about criticizing and improving the staff, the judging process and the site in general is just a waste of time.

You're right, Sei. It's not my fight. On Althanas in the past, the doctrine I've lived by is "If you want something done, do it yourself." And you're right again by calling out my inactivity (don't let your rightness go to your head though!). I haven't posted IC since my battle with Zook fell through when he went AWOL - that was a couple of months ago. That obviously prevents me from have a valid point of view on any Althanas discussion.

Now, where should I go with this post now? I could go back and argue like I'd originally intended. But my give-a-damn has broken. So, like I said, fuck it.

EDIT: Jack Frost, why did you even post?

[Elochai]

Well seeing as the thread has dissolved into trolling I'd like to get a word in edgewise.

1.) My prayers are with all of our judges.
2.) Saxon could you just for once cut back your incessant need to stir up more fights than necessary. You have great points, but we don't need you stirring up a shit ton of fights. We have Visla for that.
3.) If what Max told was true, begging to be trolled is considered trolling, hence most of us in here probably deserve a warning of sorts, but that's not my place, just throwin it out there.
4.) I had a big rant, but Fuck it, it'll just get scanned and the most trivial parts will be picked out and commented on. So here's your little it you'll focus on. Harsh judging sucks dick, I'm new, I don't want to be bludgeoned to death because Stupid fucking spell check doesn't know how to spell orichalkum. Its my third story with the character, I won't have how I want him exactly hammered out. Anything I've done with him in the past is moot because I involved Jack with two characters who vanished off the face of the earth.
5.) Time to sink back into the shadows and watch...
*Orichalum.
You shouldn't even be relying on spell check. Sure, it's helpful at times, but relying upon it 100 percent is begging to be kicked in the face by it. Take this from someone who's been in your shoes.
I'm not even going to bother addressing the trolling that's happened in the last few posts, nor am I going to address Sei's excuses for incompetency. As I said in another trolled-out thread, "blah blah blah, blah blah blah, shit happens, zip up your pants and move on". Or something very similar to that. No, I'd like to bring up Rayse's original point; more specifically, section 3a:

"a) The rubric. I'll get this out of the way first. People have been clamoring about the fairness of the rubric to accurately assess a thread based on some ambiguous categories, but, well, they miss the forest for the trees, as the title suggests. The problem with the rubric is not its fairness, but how hard it is for a job to do their job with it. The idea of slogging through a thread and then remembering it all to assign scores and commentary is really repugnant. Here, I'll make a suggestion: Base the rubric around the judge's progression of the thread. We used to have categories like introduction and climax. Pacing is good. Have the judge be working on the assessment as the thread progresses, so that by the end there's only a couple of unfilled categories, the generic ones like persona/character and action. Not only will judging become much faster, but it will be more accurate. Is it less fair? Maybe, as the start of the thread could score much worse than the middle or end, but it would make the process a hell of a lot easier and faster. Design the rubric around the judges, not the players, and you'll see higher accuracy and effort. Speaking of which..."

I would like to see this be implemented, at least for a few threads, just to see how it works out. I remember when I Judged I had scores in mind and by the end of the thread, I had to make up a whole new series of scores and reasons for the fact that I didn't have the same feeling that I got from reading the thread as it progressed. If I had, I'm sure my given Pacing scores and Action ones would have been much more realistic.

That's my opinion. Take it as you will.

[Saxon]

2.) Saxon could you just for once cut back your incessant need to stir up more fights than necessary. You have great points, but we don't need you stirring up a shit ton of fights. We have Visla for that.

You're too cute to stay mad at, Jack. You'll always be my favorite little brownoser. (Don't let that pompousness go to your head, though!)

So be careful now, because once your through being the staff's pet, Uncle Saxon's going to eat your ass. =)

[Knave]

I don’t really know that many of you, which kind of why I don’t care, and it’s kind of irritating watching old men shrivel into mean children or throw up their hands in over-defensive fighting. What I am looking at seems to be the core group of this forum, people who have been a part of this site for multiple generations of and under various board names. Most of you know each other by name. I would say it’s disappointing, but familiarity doesn’t breed friendship, so I want to step in for a moment and attempt to give an opinion which might try to progress instead of whine.

First, and most important to me, to ME (read that again if you do not understand why it is written twice,) the idea of harsher judgments is a good one. It may not be good for our feelings, but for our abilities as people of words, voices, and literary imagery, I would think so. Feel good reviews, and sad sack wanking do little for ability. This is said baring abuse, of course. While appreciation may stroke the ego and make us bolder, it is knowing where we lack and how we have disappointed which tells us what we need to do to improve. There are plenty of analogies such as carving stone, or pruning trees, but the simple fact is that when we are the subject of change we should not expect the process to be quick, magical, and filled with joy, as with any exercise which possesses even the vaguest of goals.

Likewise, while the rubrics exist, they are laws of the descriptive variety, and dictate what a judge should hold in their mind and look for with their eye. Beyond this, judging is still and will always, be a matter of opinion. You cannot standardize abstract concepts like art or music, but instead find that which is conventional and allow for creativity. With this understanding, it should be clear that you (yes, all of you) will be pandering to an audience who may not share your values or find your bundle of words quite as pretty as you do.

For those who have actual intentions of being writers of any kind, there are no end of horror stories involving publishing companies and editors applying their opinion callously to any piece and scrap of media presented to them with little better than authority and opinion. Feelings will be hurt, I see no problem burning them now, and if my experience is anything like anyone else’s, I still watch for updates with rabid anticipation. The judgments being something I am not entitled to here or anywhere else, I feel that demanding them done is a bit crass. It seems more appropriate to pester, and with restraint.

Much like the editors previously mention the Judges are human and only serve as judges when they are judging. From this, we know several things. They have terrible work ethic. They need quite a bit of sleep. They are inefficient in the use of their time. They are prone to irritation. They cannot be properly fixed or whipped. This is said because they are not Judges at all times, but human and have other more lucrative, pleasant, entertaining, sensual things to do with the various portions that make up the some of their time, and what we receive is a generous charity.

I say this while recognizing that there was a backlog, and that a single thread of mine waited from late October to mid-December. Being more laid back, somber, or lazy, I cannot bring myself to grow anything else, but annoyed.

“Do these people lead such pleasant lives that they cannot be patient? Why, they must be wealthy and great people to have retired so young and have met all their needs; needs like educations, further wealth, or even women. Only the deserving and privileged have the opportunity and strength of will to set aside conscience and courtesy like so.” — Old man voice.

For those who have missed the long discussion previously, or are indulging some fantasy of rewriting the past or affecting the future in any direct way, I would like to point out that 3.0 is here. (No shit, Sherlock) [Shut up, I am on a roll.] Breathe in that new skin aroma, underneath nothing has changed, but the details. Nothing. Not one of you.

I can only comment on the way the forum treats the judges, and if I was not clear before I will state it clearly: like spoilt children. As far as how the mods treat each other, I cannot say, but will note how previous and current moderators have not denied their many disagreements, but still keep them shadowed. Rayse does make excellent points on the actual acquisition of judges, scouting for the proper hands would be of better service than choosing from the barrel of applicants, a barrel without control for quality.

Now, a bit of focus on a few of the actual subjects on this thread, and more specifically, talking not about who did or did not do shit, but what might be done in the future. Sei is not wrong in thinking that the judges are being attacked, the thread reads exactly like that.

As far as people reading other people’s threads, I believe that was the purpose of the workshop, something that experienced a modicum of success, and needs to be revived. Likewise, as the gossip of the time went, it was the picking ground for new judges. Increasing the rewards to something more substantial might revive it, and then we might see more of this behavior, of course that is with the assumption that at some points the judges decided to pay themselves or pass along the cost of their services.

I am going to agree that staff participation seems to have dwindled, and when I noticed this a few days after officially joining the site, I was disappointed. I would attribute this to being judges and after being forced to eat everyone’s well or poorly prepared meals; they have no appetite to cook their own. Of course, last I talked with Letho it seemed he was more bogged down with the process by which a thread becomes grand. Perhaps another hidden danger to understanding how to pander to a system? In either case, they are working without pay, so I can understand the weakness of will to write.

Rayse, as I look at the list of problems I begin to see a fine plan in the works, one stopped by a simple problem: who is going to manage it?

The workload is apparently massive, threads being completed and handed off to those requested or piled on others. While having multiple judges giving quick reads is a cool concept, I don’t see it doing much but forcing them to run back and forth between each other. Managing some form of coordination between judges officially seems like it would take away from all of them, and I’m not sure the return would be worth it. Quick read through might not be effective in getting any kind of understanding beyond what the shape of the thread is.

Actually, if the page for judging could be modified for excerpts submitted by members, or brief summaries, wouldn’t that be much the same? In this way, members could highlight the key points to the same extent. Extending even a small bit of the judging process to the members might be a good thing in the end.

[Rayse Valentino]

I'm gonna stick to replying to people who are being productive. Not that the people I don't reply to aren't being productive, but there are some laying out the tasty bait and I don't really wanna bite. I like that I'm not alone in wanting more harsh judging. Also, since Elochai likes my proposal, I'd like to hear some more about that or some alternatives. Since battles are generally shorter, you could even throw in the 'two rubric' thing and make the thread-progression rubric for quests, and the battle rubric discussed in the other threads (that brings back battle-specific categories like strategy) for FIGHTS!!!

I've seen some complaints about the backlog. That seems to be a big issue, so I'll try to address that. Before I get into that, I wanna point out the last post here:


Actually, if the page for judging could be modified for excerpts submitted by members, or brief summaries, wouldn’t that be much the same? In this way, members could highlight the key points to the same extent. Extending even a small bit of the judging process to the members might be a good thing in the end.

When I made my suggestions, it was in the theme of not looking like I'm criticizing without contributing. Even if my ideas weren't that good, I wanted to at least get them out there, and maybe spur some better ideas, like this one.

In short, I agree. Judges making summaries sounds like extra work, but Knave here brought up something interesting: member-submitted summaries/reviews. To any thread. Not only could this potentially help the judge (especially if there was a hack that allowed people to submit these reviews that only moderators could see, and maybe the members could specify if they wanted the reviews included in the judging or not), but it does another cool thing: The Writing Workshop is now obsolete.

By allowing the community to rate every thread, instead of the select few that end up in the Workshop, people are not only presenting themselves are possible judge candidates, help the assigned judge out, but foster a spirit of community-driven content which is what this site is all about. I mean, in the end, a judge still has to judge in a Workshop thread, so it really doesn't alleviate any workload.

On a related note, it seems to me that all the condensed rubric does is encourage lazy judging. Sure, you remove some categories, but they're still there peripherally. If you have a big 30-point category like story, the persona is still in there. The creativity is still in there. If they're not, it's just not going to be an accurate judging at all. Once again, no workload is really alleviated, unless it encourages laziness.

Anyway, thanks to Knave I think there's a decent idea for both judge vetting, judge assistance, and community involvement. Sighter Tnailog always spoke of wanting Althanas to be a collection of dialogic works. From the wikipedia page:


The dialogic work carries on a continual dialogue with other works of literature and other authors. It does not merely answer, correct, silence, or extend a previous work, but informs and is continually informed by the previous work. Dialogic literature is in communication with multiple works.

It's writing that's not only affected by other writing, but talking to other works as well, which is what we're doing, right? Anyway, I'm getting off base here.

Now, back to the backlog. I think the issue of what people want is actually simple: They don't want a judging. At least, it's not their foremost desire. When I see a thread using a condensed rubric that just has numbers, experience, and spoils, what is the player getting out of that? Do you think they really care about the score at all? Now, I'm just suggesting that we do away with judging for certain threads, but rather an alternative:

Separate the judging from the spoils.

Have somebody check the end of the thread, approve the spoils or tell them to RoG it up with them, give maybe 1/4 or 1/3 (maybe even 1/2?!) of the exp/gp rewards, and leave. Then, at some later date, the judge would finish up the rewards and give the score or whatever. This would require a little tweaking of the exp system to only take length into consideration, then the post-judging equation you can just multiply by 0.5 or 0.75 or something so the combined exp/gp is similar to what it was before. I just figure, hey, if you really don't care that much about the score, then you're in it for another reason, namely the spoils. Maybe you need those items for another thread but they're caught up in the judging limbo. Either way, there you go.

On a final note, the holidays are no excuse. Every year it's the same thing, is it not? Either anticipate and deal with the threads before the holidays, or announce ahead of time what's going to happen. No matter what the season, people will find some reason for the delay. If it was spring, people would be claiming that it's because of school. Summer because of work or vacation. Fall because of more school. Also, I think Atzar's point was that the threads were completed before the holidays, and I guess at that point they only had a certain time to be judged before they were thrown into the holiday backlog. Either way, with my proposal the backlog would be invalidated by the 'spoils first' policy. Judges won't be overworked to death dealing with all the speed-posters cranking out twelve threads per hour. Or rather, the speed-posters wouldn't be as anxious for a judging, and thus the judges could take their time. (edit: I wanted to make a note to not focus on this last paragraph because really I don't care about the backlog, a month of waiting is pretty normal around here, but I know some people can't resist anyway so enjoy the comedy that follows this post!)

[Saxon]

On a final note, the holidays are no excuse. Every year it's the same thing, is it not? Either anticipate and deal with the threads before the holidays, or announce ahead of time what's going to happen. No matter what the season, people will find some reason for the delay. If it was spring, people would be claiming that it's because of school. Summer because of work or vacation. Fall because of more school. Also, I think Atzar's point was that the threads were completed before the holidays, and I guess at that point they only had a certain time to be judged before they were thrown into the holiday backlog. Either way, with my proposal the backlog would be invalidated by the 'spoils first' policy. Judges won't be overworked to death dealing with all the speed-posters cranking out twelve threads per hour. Or rather, the speed-posters wouldn't be as anxious for a judging, and thus the judges could take their time.

Waaah. I'm impatient. Waaah. I can't wait my turn in line. Waaah. I made the bad decision of submitting a thread on a busy and transient season and expected it back in a timely manner. Waaah.

Really? Apologies have been made and an explanation has been given. What more can be asked for? Even editors in literature give forewarning that in busy seasons you shouldn't expect anything you've submitted back for months, let alone have it done expediently. What makes you think the people here who voluntarily and willingly ingest the bilgewater of this site, good and bad, just to regurgitate it back at you are any different?

Seriously. For those whining about how bad the turnaround for their threads are and can't yet see past the veil, I invite you to apply and acquire those positions you hate so much. Seriously, even if its on a limited basis, there could be a lot of good with giving members a look at the beating heart of this snaggletoothed operation just to see what its really like.

And I can gaurantee you that unless you've seen it first hand, any assumptions or anything you believed from what people have told you, or any common wisdom that has been absorbed through osmosis about how Althanas works behind the curtain are wrong.

[Yari Rafanas]

Actually, if the page for judging could be modified for excerpts submitted by members, or brief summaries, wouldn’t that be much the same? In this way, members could highlight the key points to the same extent. Extending even a small bit of the judging process to the members might be a good thing in the end.


When I made my suggestions, it was in the theme of not looking like I'm criticizing without contributing. Even if my ideas weren't that good, I wanted to at least get them out there, and maybe spur some better ideas, like this one.

In short, I agree. Judges making summaries sounds like extra work, but Knave here brought up something interesting: member-submitted summaries/reviews. To any thread. Not only could this potentially help the judge (especially if there was a hack that allowed people to submit these reviews that only moderators could see, and maybe the members could specify if they wanted the reviews included in the judging or not), but it does another cool thing: The Writing Workshop is now obsolete.

By allowing the community to rate every thread, instead of the select few that end up in the Workshop, people are not only presenting themselves are possible judge candidates, help the assigned judge out, but foster a spirit of community-driven content which is what this site is all about. I mean, in the end, a judge still has to judge in a Workshop thread, so it really doesn't alleviate any workload.


Due to my history with the site as both an ex-admin and a player that hasn't contributed anything more than unfinished threads in the last 3 years, I have been trying to keep my mouth shut in this thread. However, I just wanted to quote Knave and Rayse here because this idea is awesome.

How cool would it be to have at the bottom of your judging something like, "Here's what others had to say about your thread:" and just a few of the comments other players posted. I think that it would be great. That's where the ego stroking can go, and where judges can potentially be alerted to subtle touches in the thread they missed when reading through.

[Max Dirks]

How useful is a hack that hides player comments? Shouldn't any addition to the judging system encourage feedback from all sorts of different writers? Further, if players don't participate in a system with a select number of threads to "rate" that they can receive EXP from, what makes you think they'll take the time to comment on all threads on Althanas with no incentive? Further, the workshop isn't obsolete. It's the future of Althanas. I wrestled for hours deciding whether to make the workshop the exclusive means for judging non-competitive RP. In the end, I decided against it due to Althanas' size, but that's the direction we're headed.

[Christoph]

As you well know, Dirks, I liked the idea of the workshop. If you want to make it work, however, you need to make participation worthwhile for potential reviewers.

[Knave]

How useful is a hack that hides player comments? Shouldn't any addition to the judging system encourage feedback from all sorts of different writers? Further, if players don't participate in a system with a select number of threads to "rate" that they can receive EXP from, what makes you think they'll take the time to comment on all threads on Althanas with no incentive? Further, the workshop isn't obsolete. It's the future of Althanas. I wrestled for hours deciding whether to make the workshop the exclusive means for judging non-competitive RP. In the end, I decided against it due to Althanas' size, but that's the direction we're headed.

I don’t recall anyone suggesting that it be hidden, but you are right that it would be unseen. So perhaps we could include it as a subsection to a thread if not the submission area. Ultimately, its a question of work versus reward, under this set up any thread would be subject to the same benefits of the Workshop aside from being gathered together, and with the vast plethora of threads we overcome the most basic challenge of the workshop, the limited amount of comments which can be considered productive and original.

Further, put away that dogmatic spiel. Currently, it is empty, and has been empty for some time. Now, at one point it was being called a success, whether that was sarcasm or honesty I don’t know, but currently it is not the flourishing utopia it once was. As someone who posted there more than once, I think the key problems with it are review quality, and the reward. Some more variation among prizes given might help.

I am confused, what do you mean by the decision restricting it to non-competitive RPs? Given the great wealth of people not lining up for longer (usually quest based) threads, I don’t see it as a matter of restriction, it wouldn’t work. Rhetorically speaking, who were you wrestling with? Asking the public about matters of policy would probably get you a better approval rating, Sahib.

[Max Dirks]

A few things.

First, I meant that I wrestled making the workshop the mandatory judging method for all non competitive RP. Non-competitive RP is RP where your EXP award is not based on the other person's score. Non-competitive RP mostly occurs in quests (where you're not trying to win). Making it mandatory would likely force those who want commentary to solicit it from others to the point where participation in the workshop becomes a regular Althanas responsibility (reciprocity becomes practice, if you will). Second, I wrestled personally with this decision. When I posted the public 3.0 thread, it was largely ignored until people saw I was serious about the switch. All decisions to alter the judging system were made by the staff at my direction in December.

Knave, your plan doesn't use any incentives to participate (unless you too are suggesting that the workshop become mandatory). What it seems like is you're advocating me turning on the "thread rating system" and pushing for the addition of a facebook-like comment system hoping that somewhere in between the random posts of what Yari called "ego stroking" there might be enough tangible commentary to speed up judging. If I'm wrong, please tell me because this won't work. Any valuable commentary would still require reading the thread and from what I gather from Christoph and others, that is what people aren't doing. There needs to be some incentive to use the workshop (or to post a useful comment in the comment system), and right now EXP isn't cutting it. But, as has been said, using the workshop alone does not speed up judgments. The condensed rubric does.

Both of you and Rayse are mistaken on the function of the condensed rubric. Judges must completely read the thread regardless of what judgment method you choose. It's true that immediately following the first read, judges have a general score in mind. What takes lots of time is putting commentary to that score. You like harsh judgments? Harsh judgments require nitpicking, and nitpicking takes several views of a thread (and probably some copy/pasting) to complete. I know this because I am the harshest judge on the site. Couple that with preparation for a possible appeal (yes, a process for appeals does exist) and these judgments take forever. The solution is the condensed rubric whether its in Workshop or not. With less categories to nitpick and a lowered expectation on commentary, the condensed rubric enables judges to take considerably less time judging a thread. It is not an excuse for a judge to be lazy. They still have to completely read the thread, it just takes away from the complexity of adding mounds of constructive criticism.

I am more than happy to pass this along to the staff for discussion. In the meantime, why don't you try having your threads placed into the workshop? It seems like its basic function is what you're advocating anyway.

[Saxon]

A few things.

First, I meant that I wrestled making the workshop the mandatory judging method for all non competitive RP. Non-competitive RP is RP where your EXP award is not based on the other person's score. Non-competitive RP mostly occurs in quests (where you're not trying to win). Making it mandatory would likely force those who want commentary to solicit it from others to the point where participation in the workshop becomes a regular Althanas responsibility (reciprocity becomes practice, if you will). Second, I wrestled personally with this decision. When I posted the public 3.0 thread, it was largely ignored until people saw I was serious about the switch. All decisions to alter the judging system were made by the staff at my direction in December.

Knave, your plan doesn't use any incentives to participate (unless you too are suggesting that the workshop become mandatory). What it seems like is you're advocating me turning on the "thread rating system" and pushing for the addition of a facebook-like comment system hoping that somewhere in between the random posts of what Yari called "ego stroking" there might be enough tangible commentary to speed up judging. If I'm wrong, please tell me because this won't work. Any valuable commentary would still require reading the thread and from what I gather from Christoph and others, that is what people aren't doing. There needs to be some incentive to use the workshop (or to post a useful comment in the comment system), and right now EXP isn't cutting it. But, as has been said, using the workshop alone does not speed up judgments. The condensed rubric does.

Both of you and Rayse are mistaken on the function of the condensed rubric. Judges must completely read the thread regardless of what judgment method you choose. It's true that immediately following the first read, judges have a general score in mind. What takes lots of time is putting commentary to that score. You like harsh judgments? Harsh judgments require nitpicking, and nitpicking takes several views of a thread (and probably some copy/pasting) to complete. I know this because I am the harshest judge on the site. Couple that with preparation for a possible appeal (yes, a process for appeals does exist) and these judgments take forever. The solution is the condensed rubric whether its in Workshop or not. With less categories to nitpick and a lowered expectation on commentary, the condensed rubric enables judges to take considerably less time judging a thread. It is not an excuse for a judge to be lazy. They still have to completely read the thread, it just takes away from the complexity of adding mounds of constructive criticism.

I am more than happy to pass this along to the staff for discussion. In the meantime, why don't you try having your threads placed into the workshop? It seems like its basic function is what you're advocating anyway.

Shh.. don't cry, Knave. Don't cry. He's arguing with an imaginary person, that's why none of what he said made any sense to what you just said.

[Taskmienster]

Saxon, please stop spamming threads. This is a warning from the administration.

[Saxon]

Saxon, please stop spamming threads. This is a warning from the administration.

I can wait for the vote from the Illuminati.

[Knave]

If solicitation was something you wished to guard against, the guard was mild. While some did ask, the clamor to participate was still no great rush. Second, wrestling personally with a public issue is not the same as telling people there are a set of decisions to be made before making them alone. Those I talked to knew you were serious, also suggesting that you were not amenable to any change of mind. I am guessing this public opinion is why the change initially received very few replies.

Incentives were suggested as being part of this idea, now how much and of what kind were never specified, but at no point did I mean to say that people would be working without the illusion of compensation (seriously, I am fairly certain it’s a matter of points, and points don’t buy breakfast).

I do not follow how one is any different from the other in terms of the effect, and I am certain I mentioned quality being an issue for any review with the difference being a (larger) reward (given points are an unlimited resource, heaping them in any amount is an option, worst case scenario we begin to see Althanas developing an editor sub-culture). In any case, this being an idea, and this idea being planned, added to, criticized, and approved of, your suggestions are able to fit with the idea. You make it better. We all do.

Actually, I want to take a little detour to point out that quality reviews were not exactly common in the workshop. At certain points, it was only out of self-imposed competition that threads received even one judgment. The fights, which were relatively short, sometimes received very little and the quests hardly any at all. I know my motivations, and I suspect Artemis’, but the rewards were small in comparison to the work being asked. It gives an excellent perspective on what the judges have to go through.

I’m only thinking about this in terms of extending a bit of the judging process to the members. Allowing others the opportunity to profit from any thread that catches their eye would make a thread more accessible with room for people to speak on a thread without clearly saying what the last few posts have already stated. I know I didn’t post because everything worthwhile had already been said by the six or so people who came before me.

With the understanding that the workshop cannot speed the judge’s review, I don’t entertain anything beyond a different format for the workshop’s concept. It would be nice to see you judge though. As far as its application, I’d like to refer to this line here:

“With less categories to nitpick and a lowered expectation on commentary, the condensed rubric enables judges to take considerably less time judging a thread.”

See that? If the deal for the workshop includes those expectations for commentary to be reduced on all ends, then that is pretty much a disincentive (and that’s a word…). That’s one of the reasons why the workshop will not thrive as it is. I don’t advocate speedy snap judgments, partly because that ignores the main appeal of the judgments all together. While a judge may have to read the thread, there is still the idea that more people will be viewing it than that judge will alone, and by viewing these comments, they may be aided in their work.

I appreciate your consideration, but simply passing things onto the staff doesn’t seem to capture the wider range of ideas about the subject. Of course, that’s only because I can only read the loudest voices, which at times seem quite numerous. When the workshop provides adequate criticisms with a greater frequency, I will be glad to submit my threads. Of course, given that I am a part of perhaps three or four active threads, and maybe ten in total, that may be sooner or later.

[Rayse Valentino]

I still see people complaining about the rewards process being too slow for everyone's tastes. Is there something heinously wrong with the 'Rewards In Advance' approach? I'm not as narcissistic as to expect a reply to every little thing I suggest, but when it's a recurring problem at least addressing it would be nice.

Anyway,


Knave, your plan doesn't use any incentives to participate (unless you too are suggesting that the workshop become mandatory). What it seems like is you're advocating me turning on the "thread rating system" and pushing for the addition of a facebook-like comment system hoping that somewhere in between the random posts of what Yari called "ego stroking" there might be enough tangible commentary to speed up judging. If I'm wrong, please tell me because this won't work. Any valuable commentary would still require reading the thread and from what I gather from Christoph and others, that is what people aren't doing. There needs to be some incentive to use the workshop (or to post a useful comment in the comment system), and right now EXP isn't cutting it. But, as has been said, using the workshop alone does not speed up judgments. The condensed rubric does.

The way that all this is being handled from this quasi-businessman approach is really bizarre. Althanas isn't a business, and even if it claimed to be one, having an 'incentives' management model only serves to stifle creative thought. Incentives flow from opportunities, not rewards, not this 'carrot on a stick' approach of EXP and GP. Put into place a system that encourages commentary, and it'll flow. People could talk to each other and go 'hey, I'll check out your thread if you check out mine.' You could comment as a way of expressing your interest of RPing with that person. It's not all about FABULOUS PRIZES!!


Both of you and Rayse are mistaken on the function of the condensed rubric. Judges must completely read the thread regardless of what judgment method you choose. It's true that immediately following the first read, judges have a general score in mind. What takes lots of time is putting commentary to that score. You like harsh judgments? Harsh judgments require nitpicking, and nitpicking takes several views of a thread (and probably some copy/pasting) to complete. I know this because I am the harshest judge on the site. Couple that with preparation for a possible appeal (yes, a process for appeals does exist) and these judgments take forever. The solution is the condensed rubric whether its in Workshop or not. With less categories to nitpick and a lowered expectation on commentary, the condensed rubric enables judges to take considerably less time judging a thread. It is not an excuse for a judge to be lazy. They still have to completely read the thread, it just takes away from the complexity of adding mounds of constructive criticism.

Nobody was arguing about function. The reality is in the result. If you think, after taking the same time to read through a thread using whatever rubric or metric that's the standard, that there's a functional difference between types of grading, I don't know what to say. Yes, there's less forms to fill out, but the general idea of a judging is still there. The result is that the condensed rubric has amounted to less accurate scores. If the judge is NOT being lazy, then there's a similar if not same amount of effort and therefore does not reduce any time spent judging.

You keep saying that if the Workshop isn't working, then the solution is to use it some more. What does attempting to increase inventiveness of a failed system accomplish? You really think it'll become a booming success if people will get 1,000 EXP for writing two paragraphs about the thread? Why not simply do away with it, and as Knave suggested, turn EVERY thread into a Workshop thread? Now you not only have less systems to work with, but the systems in place get a boost in terms of user input. Will every thread have player commentary? No. Will more threads have commentary than the select few that are chosen for Workshop judging? Yes. Trying to promote a system that has had PLENTY of time to prove its worth is going down a road of arrogance. Plus, I don't see how this is any different from your 'mandatory workshop' idea, except that it isn't forced to use the condensed rubric and that you don't need its own forum for it if you can attach the comments to the thread in question. It feels like the only reason you're not all over this is because it's not something that came from your own head. Not to make any startling new implications, but you tend to discard ideas that aren't personally endorsed by yourself. The biggest mistake of people is to suggest decent ideas because I guess you're scared people will see you as weak if you integrate an idea that didn't come from behind closed doors in the admin forums or whatever. Get over yourself, man. Nobody is out to get you or shoot your dog.

As for the appeals process, this is the first I'm hearing about it! The last time I tried to appeal I was told there was no process for that. A judging was final. If one came up between that time and now, then kudos to you!

[Rayse Valentino]

I never got any feedback for the 'spoils first!' idea or the 'user-submitted comments' one, or more importantly the 'make the first few levels fast' aka only take 1 or 2 completed threads.

There's also the other judging stuff, but that will probably never be addressed. Our backlog is insane right now.

[Max Dirks]

I never got any feedback for the 'spoils first!' idea or the 'user-submitted comments' one, or more importantly the 'make the first few levels fast' aka only take 1 or 2 completed threads.I have no comment on the 'spoils first' idea and I've said my piece on 'user-submitted comments;' however, with our new EXP equation and current Underwood ideas that are in the works, it should be very easy to level up in the first two completed threads.


There's also the other judging stuff, but that will probably never be addressed. Our backlog is insane right now.It's a never ending circle, I'm afraid. When players openly complain about the lack of quality of the judges and former judges complain about the amount of effort it takes to judge, players (even ones I openly recruit) aren't too keen on becoming judges. Althanas has seen a good boom in activity, which has lengthened our backlog, but I still only have the same number of judges I had a month ago. Anyone want to judge?

[Jack Frost]

*Cough* I've thrown my name out twice to do mod work and never got a reply back, Ever. You'll find that almost everyone here harbors some sort of desire to do mod work.

[Sighter Tnailog]

Mod work sucks. It sounds cool and then all you do is math. Soooo much math. Which for me means counting.

Just a toss-out to people: pick your judge early, and tell them about your thread well before you finish it. Maybe, just maybe, they'll read it as you work on it. Providing good notes in the judging submission form helps too, especially if your thread is heavily driven by past storyline events. As a former judge, I can tell you that I was so much better at judging threads when I had tons of advance notice, a personal connection -- even if it was just a PM informing me that I'd been requested on the judging submissions post, or a well-written note on the form giving me some quest background information. Most UNHELPFUL was a slew of links to everything else I had to read in order to understand it; if YOU, the master of your entire storyline, can't condense the past history that goes into your thread into a few paragraphs to assist a mod who isn't aware of your intensively constructed backstory, then your judge has virtually no chance.

All of which to say, while I quite honestly have been gone too long to get most of it or understand what's involved in any deep fashion, I do know what worked in judging most for me was letting a judge know early on that I would have a thread for them (they really appreciate this, as it gives them some no-pressure time to peruse your thread as you work towards finishing it), having a good "elevator speech" on what my thread was about and what you needed to know in order to get it, and making sure to establish a personal request for judging once I'd done it.

It's not a foolproof plan at all. But it was one that, at least, seemed to build a web of relationships in the site, which was a good thing.

EDIT: I was joking about the mod bit, really. It's a good gig, if you make it one. It gave me a lot of joy and happiness while I did it, even when I was fighting with people, even when we had rocky times. It was always worth it. But I wouldn't knock the hard work that writers do too, good work, work that often gets lost a little bit when modship happens. It's a trade-off; the more "official" duties you have, the less time you have to work on your characters. So my suggestion, both to mods and players who wish to be mods: find a way to build modship into your official duties. Play threads with the people you judge; become acquainted with their stories. Do it broadly, so as to avoid developing only one or two friends and thus building the charge against you of favoritism for your friends...be friends with everyone and that's not as big a deal.

And players...don't hesitate to PM a mod whose writing and character you like out of the blue, even one you've never spoken with, and ask to play a thread with them. It makes it that much easier to get something judged when the time comes, and gives you a chance to produce good, solid writing with someone who cares for Althanas.

[Rayse Valentino]

Backlog's not getting any better, guys. I'm really hoping you're considering the 'Spoils First' system.

[Max Dirks]

I took a look at your spoils first idea, Rayse, and remain impartial.

There are some flaws: the main one being how to incorporate it into the existing judgment system? If you run it like a bank giving an EXP "loan", it adds too many layers to the process. Moderators can no longer give out their own EXP (but I hope to change this soon). This means that an EXP editor would have to actively monitor submission requests, research and estimate the likely EXP total when a thread is submitted, and then monitor the "Completed Judgment" thread to complete the process. Given administrators usually add EXP, and we're spread thin as it is, I can't see this being a viable option. The only way I could see it working is just having the EXP editor give the "intangables" to the player upon completion of the thread but a) those things wouldn't amount to much EXP or GP as score remains the most important part of the base equation and b) it would reveal the EXP equation, possibly limiting (or highlighting) judge's discretion.

It has positives too: it caters to those who use Althanas as a game rather than a creative writing workshop. It, presumably, would increase spoil time.

Again, I'm indifferent, but I thought I'd bring some of the pros and cons to view for those who might be interested in seeing this pan out.

[Rayse Valentino]

I wasn't suggesting an EXP Loan. Mainly, yes, a slight change in the EXP system. Take off like, 20 or 30% of the EXP from the reward and give it out in a general 'length of thread' sort of thing. If a cursory glance at the thread reveals many tiny posts, they can give out a fraction of that. You could also just add a smaller amount of EXP, based on some arbitrary factor as long as the thread meets minimum post/word requirements, like "5% EXP to your next level" or something.

If you couple this with the 'decrease the EXP needed for level 1-2' idea, then people could easily level just off Spoils First threads. Keeping people around means rewarding them in a timely manner and telling them 'hey, you can progress your character in your character sheet!' None of the casual people who post maybe once or twice a week want to wait months to get another level if they're just starting out.

If you're indifferent about it then maybe put it to a vote? See what the general consensus is.