Blogthanas: Atzar's Being Depressing Again

[Atzar]

Hey. Apologies ahead of time if this ends up being a downer of a thread.

In the "Who do you think will win the Serenti?" thread, I was surprised when Letho mentioned me as a 'dark horse' of sorts. I do appreciate the nod, but I don't think it's warranted. It seems like I'm stuck in this awkward, uncomfortable limbo where nobody would really be surprised if a beat a good writer in a competitive environment, but at the same time nobody would be surprised if I lost an 'easy' one either. And that would be fine, if I still felt like I was improving. I'm not.

Frankly, I've become frustrated as hell about it, so I'm turning to you all for some advice. Where do I go next? I have no idea how to get better from here, but unfortunately I'm a competitive asshole and it matters to me. "Stop caring and just write to have fun!" has never worked. For those of you familiar with my writing, what am I missing? I'm sound from a mechanical standpoint, I know that much. I've never been the type to try to "checklist" my way through a thread, but nonetheless whenever I look back I have the ingredients. All of the pieces are there, but it still seems that there has always been something missing from it. I'm beginning to think that there's just some 'spark' that some writers have naturally and others only find once in a long while, if at all.

"Vague thread is vague." Yes, I know that I'm asking for something pretty unspecific. To try to open the thread up a little bit, I'll throw a few more questions out here. When you read, can you put your finger on what exactly separates a good, entertaining story from a bland or bad one? What kinds of things hook you into a story? When you're writing to improve, what do you work on? Do you write better when you just pour words onto the page, or when you painstakingly craft it one word at a time?

I understand that I'm asking for a lot, and I don't expect anybody to throw down an essay answering each of the questions in turn. I'm also not expecting a "right answer": I know that there's no magic button that I push and then yay I'm awesome. I'm just looking for some food for thought, something to help me climb out of this rut that I've been in. So just say whatever you want to say. Also, collecting a bunch of writing philosophies in one place is probably a good idea, anyway - even if I don't find what I'm looking for, I'm sure somebody else will.

Thanks a lot.

[Quentin Boone]

While I'm not familiar with your writing specifically, I can certainly the answer the question of what I find makes a good story. Of course, as with most things, this is purely subjective, but here it is:

Characterisation. At least, that's the simple answer. But let me elaborate a little bit. I like to know a story's characters inside out. I've found through copious amounts of reading over the years, and a fair amount of writing too, that one of the most effective ways to do this is through the narrative. A lot of fiction (in which I include RP, of course) tends to be written in third-person omniscient, which is fine. Something you will find in my own writing that I picked up from my favourite author - Robert Jordan - is that the narrative, while maintaining that POV, actually takes on the characteristics of whichever character I am writing for. This tends to make the 'inner-workings' of a character manifest themselves in an unforced, show-not-tell way. Robert Jordan did this in a really great way: each chapter had an 'in focus' character, whose persona was shown through the narrative. Not only does it help characterisation, but also gives a fair bit of variety - two people may speak in one chapter, then continue their conversation in the next, but you end up with two very differing 'vibes'.

While obviously a story needs to be solid, I really do think it's the characterisation that draws people in - after all, we can't really connect with a tree or a building. If the characters are truly alive and interesting, portrayed in that same fashion, readers begin to root for them, dislike them, etc etc. I know it's all elementary stuff, but if you can find ways to further your focus on character (while maintaining all the other important things), anyone can improve their writing.

Note: Of course, this is just a general bit of feedback and opinion. Don't think I'm saying you don't characterisation well, but I do think the rubric is a little too vague on 'character' - it isn't just keeping things true to the character itself.

In terms of when I write best, I would definitely say I write 'best' when it's mostly stream of consciousness; letting the words flow as images and whatnot fly about my head. It's in that situation I find I write the most interesting stuff - creative, descriptive, good flow - mostly because it's all 'natural'. However, I will very often come back to something I've written SOC and go over it with a fine-tooth comb. During this process I tend to work paragraph by paragraph, and almost always find myself completely re-writing each one, or merging two together, all the usual editing shenanigans that we writers go through.

Pure creativity comes out of SOC, but 'masterpieces' follow once I've re-edited. To give rounded feedback, I often find my edits involve 'thickening' a scene - adding more details, perhaps slowing the pace a little - to make it more immersive (wow, FF's dictionary doesn't even recognise the word, but it IS real, haha) for the reader. My SOC writing tends to be a little 'thin', almost like a summary, but when I edit I take the effort to really craft what's going on piece by piece.


I know you said it doesn't help, but write for fun! What I find when I'm here, because I'm so conscious of the rubric and points and things like that, that I'm almost in edit-mode all the time. Maybe you're doing a similar thing by thinking too much about your writing. If you stop worrying about what's missing in your writing, perhaps you'll find it pops into your writing naturally.

Hope this helps! (A little too much rambling, I think, but I haven't slept so I don't care :) )

[Duffy]

I think this sort of question needs a bit of refocussing before help can be given.

You're asking what can you do to help you motivate yourself...

Surely, to write as a role, in the mindset of a character, you need to re-evaluate and get into the head of what Atzar wants to do with his life.

Step into his shoes and ask the same questions as if you were him, and see if that helps.

I don't write as Cydney when I write, I write as Duffy - it does wonders (if that makes any sense at all).

[Vigil]

Hey. Apologies ahead of time if this ends up being a downer of a thread.

In the "Who do you think will win the Serenti?" thread, I was surprised when Letho mentioned me as a 'dark horse' of sorts. I do appreciate the nod, but I don't think it's warranted. It seems like I'm stuck in this awkward, uncomfortable limbo where nobody would really be surprised if a beat a good writer in a competitive environment, but at the same time nobody would be surprised if I lost an 'easy' one either. And that would be fine, if I still felt like I was improving. I'm not.

Frankly, I've become frustrated as hell about it, so I'm turning to you all for some advice. Where do I go next? I have no idea how to get better from here, but unfortunately I'm a competitive asshole and it matters to me. "Stop caring and just write to have fun!" has never worked. For those of you familiar with my writing, what am I missing? I'm sound from a mechanical standpoint, I know that much. I've never been the type to try to "checklist" my way through a thread, but nonetheless whenever I look back I have the ingredients. All of the pieces are there, but it still seems that there has always been something missing from it. I'm beginning to think that there's just some 'spark' that some writers have naturally and others only find once in a long while, if at all.

"Vague thread is vague." Yes, I know that I'm asking for something pretty unspecific. To try to open the thread up a little bit, I'll throw a few more questions out here. When you read, can you put your finger on what exactly separates a good, entertaining story from a bland or bad one? What kinds of things hook you into a story? When you're writing to improve, what do you work on? Do you write better when you just pour words onto the page, or when you painstakingly craft it one word at a time?

I understand that I'm asking for a lot, and I don't expect anybody to throw down an essay answering each of the questions in turn. I'm also not expecting a "right answer": I know that there's no magic button that I push and then yay I'm awesome. I'm just looking for some food for thought, something to help me climb out of this rut that I've been in. So just say whatever you want to say. Also, collecting a bunch of writing philosophies in one place is probably a good idea, anyway - even if I don't find what I'm looking for, I'm sure somebody else will.

Thanks a lot.

I wouldn't take anything said in these OOC threads too much to heart, man. Especially in the Win thread. A lot of people just pick the top three names they can remember off the top of their head, claim they're going to win and then just shove off. The thread was meant for trashtalking, inspiring false motivation and to keep interest in the Serenti alive while they're working to get it going. But even that's a bit of a stretch. If I were you, I'd just take the compliment in stride and just play the Serenti for the fun of it. How you finish doesn't really matter. Its a writing competition, but it doesn't measure how good you are as a writer, because that would be stupid. You're being asked to write fast-paced, violent vignettes with people you've probably not met before and accomplish it in a very short amount of time. Anybody who says their best work can come from something like that is probably full of it anyway.

Just write and have fun in the Serenti. Don't get mixed up with trying to make a story out of it. If you're unconvinced with your ability to write it competitively and you think even having an opening is going to be hard, I'd make contact with your first opponent and make a ballet out of it. He or she can work with you and you have the option of pretty much choreographing your posts before hand if you can't think of how to do it yourself. The writing is going to be a bit slower, and a bit more bland, but its going to be up to which one of you writes in better detail and can provide better action that would determine a winner.

However, if you're looking to be inspired, I think writing something on your own with a good idea you might have is probably your best bet to fixing whatever problem you think you might be having. Other then that, I think its just a mind fuck, dude. You haven't written in awhile, and you probably don't have much confidence in yourself because of it. The only way to fix that, man, is to just do it. Fuck expectations, because nobody is asking anything from you over this other then to meet some deadlines.

When's the last time you've posted or written on your own anyway?

[Quentin Boone]

However, if you're looking to be inspired, I think writing something on your own with a good idea you might have is probably your best bet to fixing whatever problem you think you might be having. Other then that, I think its just a mind fuck, dude. You haven't written in awhile, and you probably don't have much confidence in yourself because of it. The only way to fix that, man, is to just do it. Fuck expectations, because nobody is asking anything from you over this other then to meet some deadlines.

Yeah, I kinda know how that feels - I've not written in so long now! I agree that writing something on your own can be good, but I did find that my thread with Sei over the weekend helped to get me in the 'groove' a little more - having someone to work with helps, I think. If your confidence is low, having that other person to 'push' you along can be that extra bit of motivation you need.

However, I think that rather than Atzar's issue being specifically the Serenti tournament, it's more about his confidence in general, and a long-standing feeling that his writing lacks that certain... Something.

So long as fun is had, the feedback from the tournament might be just the thing he needs.

@Atzar: It might be worth making a request to the tournament judges for feedback around your concerns if they're using the full rubric and judging method.

[Atzar]

Thanks for the posts.

Quentin, the point about characterization is a good one. I've overhauled this character a few times in the past with the ultimate goal of turning Atzar into something more than a tool for me to make things happen in a thread. I actually haven't had an opportunity to test out the latest version, because I stopped writing for awhile right after I posted it. Even so, I've never felt that character was a weakness of mine.

Duffy, that's probably something I should think about more than I do. I've always left the whole "where does Atzar want to go?" question unanswered, because I thought it conflicted with the spontaneous nature of Althanas - you never know when somebody is going to approach you with an idea on this site, and you never know where that idea is going to end up. I always figured that I'd leave it up to that to determine Atzar's ultimate direction, rather than creating his path myself.

To some of you, that probably sounds contradictory to what I actually do, since I spend a decent amount of my time writing solos. The solos, though, are typically vignette-style quests: I make them to test out an idea that doesn't have a place in a long-term story arc, or to fuck with my writing style, or rarely to acquire loot that I want. More recently I've decided that I want to outfit Atzar in a full suit of masterwork prevalida plate armor, but I'm not sure yet what it takes to actually receive that as spoils.

This isn't really about the Serenti, and it's not that I took any OOC comments to heart - it just seemed like a good jumping-off point to start this thread. My issue, I think, is that I've always had increasingly demanding expectations for myself as a writer, but until about a year ago I felt that I was improving quickly enough to keep up with them. Now, I have no idea what else to do, but there's still something missing and I don't know what it is or how to fix it so I asked for help. Like I said, vague thread is vague.

Vigil, I haven't posted IC here in quite awhile, but I do write on my own from time to time. I don't do it often enough to call it a habit, but at the very least I'm not just sitting here collecting rust.

[Breaker]

For what it's worth, when I called you a "sleeper" I only did it because no one else was touting you for victory. Having not read anything you've written in the past couple years, I won't be much help right now... but if you submit a quest through the writer's workshop I'll be sure to drop some commentary, and I'll read your tourny battles and give some feedback if I can.

The best generic advice I think I can give is to step outside your comfort zone. When you're writing a story, make things go wrong, or differently than you'd planned, so that you really have to work your character and the setting in order to get to the ending you desire. Also reading some great material by some of your favourite authors (or even some of your favourite Althanas writers) might inspire you to new levels.

edit: based on your last post, I think you really need to write more in order to improve.

[Knave]

Improvement? Performance, feedback, revision. You aren't really going to be able get around these things. The best that can be done is to do things based around modifying these steps to the greatest effect. Performance in bulk (Duff-tehchnique) is something I've been meaning to give my full attention to, and this site provides the best/cheapest source of feedback, (feedback which can only be aided by gaining the largest number and depth of view points and reactions), the last part is where things get good: revision. When I read about editing, the rule of thumb is that an author in-editing rewrites their work seven times; refinement of ore into a sturdy building material that grows into a multi-billion dollar industrial giant that your children will profit from and moguls will regularly cite as the greatest invention since fire.

Don't stress if you aren't pouring gold onto a page.

When you read, can you put your finger on what exactly separates a good, entertaining story from a bland or bad one?

I can put an infinite number of fingers on things that irritate my eyes. Overly compressed scenes that tell all and show nothing are a clear favorite in the negative pile. Now what is good? That's a harder one to say. I'm gonna answer this vague survey with a vague answer, there are a lot of good and bad things that can be done with the English language. Enough for the entire genre of literary criticism. The single best thing I can identify first is forethought, just some idea of what they intended rather than meandering.

What kinds of things hook you into a story?

A good narrative. I like good dialogue, and being able to understand a character is great, but a narrative with an infectious personality is something I really enjoy. Lemony Snicket, Terry Pratchett, I may not always be in the moment as I read their books, but even the tangents are thoroughly entertaining and don't make me regret going through them. Just like having any good conversation or story told in person. Simply because the POV is third person and/or omnipresent doesn't mean that they are impersonal.

When you're writing to improve, what do you work on?

Tone and atmosphere, whats important to me is that I get across some real emotion to my reader, its one thing to get them to read something and then picture it, its another to make them laugh or cry. Sad to say, I seem to have gained no power over this but to overemphasize things, to make eating a potato chip some epic action. In part, I've shot myself in the foot with this character.

Do you write better when you just pour words onto the page, or when you painstakingly craft it one word at a time?

Freedom is cool, but freedom over time is more a hindrance to me when I'm attempting a solo. As I'm filling in the details, I don't really stop. I name things, give them some description, and then make more. It becomes less a project to be completed than an ongoing piece whose end I have lost sight of. Apparently this is a common thing for projects that don't have a clear outline.

And if you are trying to motivate yourself, thinking in another person's viewpoint may work, but keep in mind that that's the characters motivations, not yours. You should have those motivations in mind, but its your own that I feel should come first. Mine? Some loose, unaimed emotion I can hold onto and direct, which will likely lead into more and I can direct with the flow of the story. Like anger or excitement.

More than that though, if you are stressed about your own performance, going with that will likely just make you lumpy bumpkin sitting around feeling bad about yourself. You've got to learn the self-pep talk or find something that gets you out of your slump for a bit. I advocate the self-pep talk, just remember to take it seriously.

"You are awesome! Nothing can get in our way! We are the destroyer! KILL! MAIM! BURN! When I get round to that keyboard, she and I are gonna make the kind of love that Rick James never knew and Shakespeare only dreamed of..."

Seriously though, stressing before you start will only make it harder.

[Atzar]

Again, thanks for the replies. Keep them coming.

Numbers, as far as intentionally making things go wrong, that's something I've never considered. I'll have to give it a try. And I do draw inspiration from some of my favorite authors. For me, it's always been a question of 'where do I stop?' as far as that goes: they're obviously doing something right and I try to learn as I read, but at the same time I don't want to just try to mimic their style.

And yeah, I need to write more. That's one of the reasons I joined the tournament, the other being that a lot of the best writers came back out of the woodwork to take part in this and I want to join them. Lately, though, whenever I write I get a few posts deep and then decide that it's junk.

Knave, it's one thing to say "don't stress if you aren't pouring gold onto a page", and another to actually put it to use. I've found that as I've been around here for longer and longer, it takes longer and longer for me to write a post. There are times where I'll hang up on one word for ten minutes, but I've never been the type to just jot one down and move on, with the intention to come back to it later. To me, a mistake that you avoid in the first place is one that you don't have to fix some other time.

[SirArtemis]

Haven't read this yet but in line with a "intentionally things go wrong" bit, why not write with another author or two and just go with it without planning too much, or let one/both of the other authors get the main plan in order, like I'm doing with Sei and Letho atm.

[orphans]

I can safely say, I probably have more brain hiccups and typos that the majority of Althanas combined. Something I'm trying to figure out how to correct, but onto the questions at hand!

Motivation differs from people to people, so that's most likely the hardest part to give advice on. Some people enjoy seeing their characters grow in strength and such, some people live vicariously through their characters, others want to tell a story with their character whether it's a happy, sad, dark, or something in between. Personally, despite the usual things I've been writing, I actually enjoy bitter stories that end without a definite conclusion and leaves the reader feeling... empty? Not sure if that's the correct word for it.

What helps me write is having a start and planned end point. The trick is to just fill up everything in the middle and if along the way, the planned ending doesn't seem possible, let go of the reins and have the story develop as is.

The other thing I like to do is to try and have a conversation with the characters you're writing with. I know it may sound like borderline schizophrenia, but it helps with me a bit to understand where the character is coming from. As strange as it may sound, often times when I create a character, I don't know their full story and it's through these "chats" that I learn more and more.

Finally, I constantly struggle over grammar and fail to grasp the concept of, "show don't tell." These two are things that I'm always trying to work on.

Also, Atzar, you can always poke me on aim for motivation and watch my fingers spaz out with nonsense :D! or ooo! you can get skype and hear me rawr at Artemis~

EDIT:


And yeah, I need to write more. That's one of the reasons I joined the tournament, the other being that a lot of the best writers came back out of the woodwork to take part in this and I want to join them. Lately, though, whenever I write I get a few posts deep and then decide that it's junk.

Just wanted to also say, if that's how you feel, that you have to clear out the junk in one's brain to get to the good stuff, yes? And the only way to do that is to write it all out. Even then, junk can be polished up and a tin can might even pass for silver if it's done right, no?

[SirArtemis]

I laughed out loud at the schizophrenia. Also, I also invite you to listen in on azza putting me down during six hour long Skype calls daily. He's abusive =[ but my CD's are in his truck! (dane cooke reference)

[The International]

I have to agree with Vigil about the point that this is probably a mental issue as much as everything else. Many people are often reluctant to step into the pool after a long winter. However I really appreciate that you hold yourself to a high standard, and that you consider improving yourself to be just as much of the game as the rest of it. I equate "just write and have fun" to "just be 'yourself'"... total bullshit. However, you can't improve on your writing if you're not writing, so get to it. And not just Serenti. Get into a quest in which you can take your time and improve.

In any skill, a practitioner will get to the point where he can't find his own areas that could use improvement, and needs someone else to point them out to him. Lately I've been asking fellow players how my writing is as I write it. I put up one or two postst and then I hit up Elrundir, Numbers, Ataraxis, and others. Word of caution: be careful of who you decide to turn to for advice. Some people don't know how to give you constructive criticism. They JUST give criticism, and don't give you ways to improve. I ask them for particular areas (characterization, action, mechanics) and they all help. The other day Elrundir found something that I didn't notice, and it greatly improved my writing. Ataraxis always helps with little grammar errors, and serves as my primary muse for ideas.

Sometimes motivation is the primary cause for problems. We just don't have the willpower to take time to make sure everything is airtight. I get motivation from many things. Reading a book, looking into Althanas lore, but most of all, for me, bouncing ideas off of someone else REALLY helps. Whem I'm done talking with a fellow member of Althanas about potential ideas for a quest, or talking about a post I'm about to put up, I'm ready to write a novel. Hell, it doesn't even have to be about something I'm about to do. We could be debating on the ear length of Elves or some shit, and more often than not it works.

Another thing that could help is analyzing your creative process and maybe changing it up a bit. Could you tell us what you do from conception to post?

[Elrundir]

International brings up a good point about getting advice from people. I ought to take advantage of that myself, really, but often a fresh pair of eyes is what's needed to spruce things up. You've obviously taken a good first step by posting this very thread, but it'll be even more helpful if you've got something specific in mind for people to look at. I think taking advantage of the Writer's Workshop is a great way to achieve this if you don't feel like hitting people up for advice every few posts.

And as everyone else has said: keep writing! It won't all be fantastic, but that's kind of the point of getting advice, right? You can't improve if you don't know where you're going wrong, and you won't realize where you're going wrong--nor will anyone else--if you don't write.

[Vigil]

I equate "just write and have fun" to "just be 'yourself'"... total bullshit.


". . . just write and have fun with it. . ."

". .just write and enjoy it. ."

Fixed.


Solid feedback, I really think, comes from your peers. Judges can provide good critiques if they put forth the effort, but you really need to find people who are strong writers to read stuff you've written and tell you what they think. It might not be a friend, or anybody that you think will just tell you "Its good, I liked it. You're a good writer," because they don't want to hurt your feelings. Find someone you think you can trust to provide honest feedback and ask them if they'll read and edit some of your stuff. The writer's workshop is... okay.. to use, but it should really start with your peers first before you submit it to anything. Judge or workshop. Either can help, but you can't do anything to immediately correct your mistakes in your threads in these situations because they only provide feedback on the condition that whatever you've written is finished. Sometimes you get stuck. I know I do. I let threads sit for awhile because I like to develop the scenes in my head, and I know exactly how I want it to look and to say, but I don't have the right words for it yet. If that happens, its normal. You're just trying to come up with something better then what you have in your head right now. This is why writing makes for a shitty game, because the process can take forever. If you do get stuck, get somebody to look at your stuff or tell them what you're thinking of and describe it to them. That's where I fix my problems 9 times out of 10. And it happens frequently.

That's about it. If you want, send me something you've written and I'll edit it for you. I'm a hard critic, but I don't bullshit and I know what to look for. Its up to you, bud.

[Zook Murnig]

In any skill, a practitioner will get to the point where he can't find his own areas that could use improvement, and needs someone else to point them out to him. Lately I've been asking fellow players how my writing is as I write it. I put up one or two postst and then I hit up Elrundir, Numbers, Ataraxis, and others. Word of caution: be careful of who you decide to turn to for advice. Some people don't know how to give you constructive criticism. They JUST give criticism, and don't give you ways to improve. I ask them for particular areas (characterization, action, mechanics) and they all help. The other day Elrundir found something that I didn't notice, and it greatly improved my writing. Ataraxis always helps with little grammar errors, and serves as my primary muse for ideas.

On this note, I'll point out that most of my best writing took place while I was linking minds with one writer on this site or another (Ataraxis usually), and I'd write a paragraph, send it through AIM, and wait for their comments or concerns. As well, you could write the entire thing in a text editing program and then post it up all at once when you're done. But breaking it up into paragraphs and passages for critique makes it a lot easier on the proofreader/editor, allowing them to focus more on the content, intent, and direction of each chunk, rather than having to do triage on a whole post or thread.

EDIT: Vigil's right, he's a tough nut, but when he's impressed with something he'll tell you. I'm still reeling from that 77 he gave me. Best score I've ever gotten, and his advice and criticism has helped me to set my bar higher since.

[Atzar]

Seeking feedback from others is always something that I've done a lot in my time here. I'll definitely take you up on that, and in turn feel free to ask me if you want my input.

That goes for anybody. I'm willing to critique, and I'm always looking for people to critique my own work. Hit me up if you feel like trading.

But yeah, you're probably right; I doubt there's really anything I can do about it without getting back into the flow of writing.


Another thing that could help is analyzing your creative process and maybe changing it up a bit. Could you tell us what you do from conception to post?

There's not much to it, I guess. I usually try to plan the general arc of the story ahead of time, so going into a post the only things I really have to create are the details. Things like the finer points of setting and dialogue are just concocted on the fly.

As far as the stories themselves, I like to have more than one thing going on within a story at a time. For me, this frequently creates an innate conflict/contrast, and leads to a deeper thread overall. I think threads with a single purpose typically blow by, leaving the reader thinking "wait... this is already over?".

Is this what you were looking for when you asked the question?

[The International]

It might not be a friend, or anybody that you think will just tell you "Its good, I liked it. You're a good writer," because they don't want to hurt your feelings. Find someone you think you can trust to provide honest feedback and ask them if they'll read and edit some of your stuff. The writer's workshop is... okay.. to use, but it should really start with your peers first before you submit it to anything. Judge or workshop. Either can help, but you can't do anything to immediately correct your mistakes in your threads in these situations because they only provide feedback on the condition that whatever you've written is finished.
Forgot to mention that. There are people who don't know how to look at a piece of fiction with a critical eye no matter how good they are. No, and I mean no post is perfect, and if they say they can't find anything wrong with it thank them and move on. But this comment about the Workshop raises a good point. Perhaps there's a way to format the feature to facilitate a more immediate response for critique. Some people can learn better while doing something than if they get criticism between bouts....

Gears-a-turnin'.


Is this what you were looking for when you asked the question?

So you take a top to bottom approach.
Have you considered attempting a bottom to top approach to shake things up a bit?

[Atzar]

So you take a top to bottom approach.
Have you considered attempting a bottom to top approach to shake things up a bit?

I'm not even sure I know how to go about that. You're talking about starting with the details and working my way out? It seems like it would be pretty difficult to create a good story with that approach.

[The International]

When most successful fiction writers divulge the details of their creative process they usually go by one of four routes.

Bottom Up - Just write straight through without planning or editing. Then go back at a later time and edit like hell.

Edit As You Go - Write without planning, but edit as you go.

Snowflake - Make a general plan and write, changing the plan along the way.

Outline - Make a detailed plan before you write anything, adhering to it as you post.

Many of us do one of those or a mix of two. I've done the Snowflake for the most part unless it isn't my thread, but I'm trying the Outline process for the first time and it seems to have created very good results. Maybe changing up your process will help you as well.

[Atzar]

When most successful fiction writers divulge the details of their creative process they usually go by one of four routes.

Bottom Up - Just write straight through without planning or editing. Then go back at a later time and edit like hell.

Edit As You Go - Write without planning, but edit as you go.

Snowflake - Make a general plan and write, changing the plan along the way.

Outline - Make a detailed plan before you write anything, adhering to it as you post.

Many of us do one of those or a mix of two. I've done the Snowflake for the most part unless it isn't my thread, but I'm trying the Outline process for the first time and it seems to have created very good results. Maybe changing up your process will help you as well.

That's interesting - I haven't heard of this before. I suppose I'm closest to Snowflake myself, with a little bit of 'Edit As You Go' thrown in for good measure.

[The International]

Yea. The format of play by post facilitates Edit As You Go and Snowflake more so than any of the others.