So we don't choke the cell thread...

[Dissinger]

Lets dicuss the RoG rules here guys. No sense in further derailing the thread.

My take on the RoG update rules is this, if you got an ability during a quest or battle you can keep using it as awarded. However, for you to gain any "auto-level" increases, you need to submit a profile. Until you have updated your level really doesn't change. The idea that you didn't have to submit an update was more for people who sit there and have nothing truly to report. Things like swords that grow stronger as the wielder does and such need to be regulated by RoG and it is their perogative to say "sorry this level you don't get that."

With that out of the way I feel the change only enhanced what was already there. If you quest for abilities and such, you can make use of them, but for people that have level cantrips, you need to update so it gets balanced if the need should arise.

[Max Dirks]

I'll say this once, it's quite simple:

The rule for tournaments is that you play through the tournament at the level you are at when it begins. You can only use new character abilities if you gained them in the tournament battle, not through mid-tournament level ups. This is to maintain continuity in tournaments (since the actual event probably only takes a week or so in IC time)

This was written as a general rule on the original tournament handbook, but then when Matt re-wrote it for the FAQ for some reason the rule was stripped. In a normal circumstance, hushpuppy would be stripped of the title and disqualified for powergaming, but since the rule was not made abundantly clear he will retain his win. However, this is how tournaments will be played in the future.

Do not cheat, I will find you!

[Slayer of the Rot]

I'll say this once, it's quite simple:

The rule for tournaments is that you play through the tournament at the level you are at when it begins. You can only use new character abilities if you gained them in the tournament battle, not through mid-tournament level ups. This is to maintain continuity in tournaments (since the actual event probably only takes a week or so in IC time)

This was written as a general rule on the original tournament handbook, but then when Matt re-wrote it for the FAQ for some reason the rule was stripped. In a normal circumstance, hushpuppy would be stripped of the title and disqualified for powergaming, but since the rule was not made abundantly clear he will retain his win. However, this is how tournaments will be played in the future.

Do not cheat, I will find you!

He'll probably rape you, too.

[Storm Veritas]

I'll say this once, it's quite simple:

The rule for tournaments is that you play through the tournament at the level you are at when it begins. You can only use new character abilities if you gained them in the tournament battle, not through mid-tournament level ups. This is to maintain continuity in tournaments (since the actual event probably only takes a week or so in IC time)

This was written as a general rule on the original tournament handbook, but then when Matt re-wrote it for the FAQ for some reason the rule was stripped. In a normal circumstance, hushpuppy would be stripped of the title and disqualified for powergaming, but since the rule was not made abundantly clear he will retain his win. However, this is how tournaments will be played in the future.

Do not cheat, I will find you!

Very simple and concise, fair to both hushpuppy and future tournament competitors (although this should be posted at tournament startups).

The only thing I don't like about this post is that it pretty much dissolves the need for further discussion about the decisions made. :D

[Vorin]

He'll probably rape you, too. See, now I'm conflicted on whether to cheat in a tournament.

[Serilliant]

You can't be raped, Cory. You'd flop on your belly for a yeti. Or Ithermoss.

[Futsuriai]

Sorry to seem like I disagree with you all the time, Diss, (or am I? Bwhahahaha) but this idea is ridiculous. It means that if I gain Ultima at the end of a quest I can use it but if I say "For every level above 1 he can make a tiny rubber ball" I can't unless I specifically make a level up? What gives?

Regardless, I actually meant to go along with the title of the thread. I don't like the ROG's supremacy in character control as is, I've always believe for updates the ROG should just be a repository of information and a place to detect abuses. The judges who hand out rewards should simply decide if the quest merited what is being asked for, that's it. If I deserved Doomstruction why would I lose it when I leveled up if it's "Too powerful"? If it was too much for the quest I made I simply shouldn't have been awarded such a skill. In a seemingly contradictory vein I think the ROG should step in in cases where the judge was either misled (through ambiguous wording) or unable to fully see the ramifications of his actions. For the latter I can use the example of two skills:

Nightwind: For 5 minutes a curtain of unlight descends blocking off all light, plunging the region into total darkness (i.e. nightvision is useless, there's no light). This blinds everyone including the user.

Echolocation: For 5 minutes the user loses all sight and gains a primitive ability to use echolocation to build a world picture, small details cannot be resolved but a rough outline of the surroundings can be constructed.

Voila! Neither skill is too powerful and don't attack the theory by saying either is since they're an on-the-spot example but together they're pretty cheap. Otherwise I say skills gained at the end of quests are implicitly approved as are any "when I level up x happens" when x is a well-defined event. I don't see why I need to specificy a branching condition and then keep track of it for everyone if it's simply defined. Personally I've sworn off level numbers, supposed level strengths, and the like but I do agree they serve as useful markings and while I would personally make a skill "As his power grows x" and explicitly request the change when it happens or at a level up I don't see why "At level up x" is any different in practice. If that was too much then don't allow it, if it becomes too much in addition to another skill it's the same scenario as the two above except there they're individual gained skills and not incremental ones.

Hope this makes sense and that someone up high agrees. Then again...people did agree with the wiki and said it was coming late this month but, and I hope I'm wrong, somehow doubt this is happening. Sigh.

[Cyrus the virus]

The reason, Futty, is so that the quest judge doesn't have to keep track of every other ability you gain in between levels. A judge should have no problem approving a rather powerful ability for a level 6, but what if he's gotten similar abilities from every other quest he's done in between 6 and 7?

Also, nobody ever has an ability where they gain one rubber ball per level. Nobody. It's always something a bit more than that, and at higher levels, it can get pretty ridiculous.

[Daggertail]

I am sorta in the middle on this but I’m going to lean in the direction of Futsuriai. I think the ROG mods are needed to keep someone from earning 3 powerful mass destruction spells that he could then cast in a row to make any character have a headache to think how in hell they’re going to get out of this one. But the problem is that the mods can get pretty anal about certain things, like guns and the like. It’s just that I think the mods need to lighten up a bit and let people play the characters they want within reason. There’s a serious lack of trust between the mods and the players and it needs to stop, if someone uses the gun or spell unfairly that it guarantees the opponents loss he’ll really get screwed in the score under strategy, rising action and wildcard. That alone will keep the problems of having an invincible character that always wins a fight with no trouble but still if you want a gunman character, you better write a damn JC and hope to god that the RoG thinks you’re worthy of the new piece and same for a spell that does more than burn things.

[Letho]

I personally think that all abilites, both those earned in a quest and those earned at level up should be approved by a RoG mod before the character can use that. So yes, I think RoG should have more power over the character creation/update. That means waiting until the update to use any skill you might've acquired during the quest. I like playing things by the book, I like a clean set of rules that plugs as many loopholes as possible.

While it seems like a good idea to give much more freedom to the players and let the judges decide what's powergaming and what's not, in practice I don't think that would work very well. The judges, beside having to watchful about 10 different categories during their reading, would now have to take all the abilites in consideration and evaluate whether or not was the usage of them powergaming. Sometimes this would work well. Sometimes they would miss a thing or two and I assure you that the person that loses the fight would not appreciate it.

The fact of the matter is, if you allow more lenience, you leave a larger loophole. I don't think this is a matter of luck of trust between the mods and the players; I suspect on mods and players alike to jump through the loophole occasionally if it's possible. But maybe I'm just a suspicious kind of guy.

[Dissinger]

As for the automatic trigger, I'll use the most recent example of a level trigger ability that would need to be controlled by RoG the meerplex.


Meerplex will divide in two every time he reaches a new level. So at level 1 there will be two Meerplexes traveling around together, at level 2 there will be four, and so on. Meerplexes don't like being around each other that much though, so a lot of them will probably strike out on their own after dividing. The most Meerplexes that have ever been seen in one place is ten.

2
4
8
16
32
64
128
356
712

Thats your standard progression. Now, looking at that, even with the ten meerplex's in one location. That means each ability could be triggered ten times. This also means that if ten meerplex's jump on the same host, there would be nothign they couldn't do, cause even if they were weak, the mass numbers on him would make it near impossible to stop them from doing as they want realistically. This is a case of Fut's combo progression from hell.

I also would like to point out, I have talked with people about gaining abilities in quests and if you were to get doomstuction I would allow said skill maybe slightly modified, but I would not allow you to progress your character through free upgrades and progression of skills as a balance. This is the sort of things that RoG's job is to handle. Its the fine balance here.

I understand alot of you feel RoG is the gestapo, however you also have to realize we aren't singling out anyone, we're trying to make it the same for everyone. Why should anyone be allowed to gain six skills AND upgrade their profile with increases in skills and such, when a character of the same level may only upgrade because they didn't decide to milk quests and rather wanted to tell a story. How is that fair to him? These are the questions an RoG mod has to ask themselves daily and deal with.

Do we say:

"Well little Billy, because you didn't take advantage of quests to earn neat and nifty abilities, you will be schooled when Johny fights you in a tournament or battle. You can upgrade your skills though but not nearly to the degree that Johnny earned through questing."

Or do we say:

"Well Johnny you've done a good job gathering abilities between levels. Lets just put those abilities in, but don't progress your skills since your time was obviously spent earning said abilities."

You can call us nazi's you can call us gestapo, you can say we don't have trust of the players, but what keeps Althanas from being another IV is the RoG. I have heard many people give memories of the IV but to this day I don't think any one of them wants to see Althanas become that.

[Daggertail]

I think Diss gives a good idea what the RoG should be, keeping everything fair but there's a problem with Althanas rules that sorta make it unfair. Under that kind of system where a person askes for enough spoils then he won't be able to add stuff at level up, which is fine. But then why have deducted EXP for requesting spoils then, wouldn't it be counterproductive for both Billy and Johnny and Althanas as a whole to have Johny level up slower for asking for spoils when the level profile is just reguarded as double checking to make sure Johny's character is still fair with the spoils. I think the solution is pretty easy, give out gold more regularly to quests and battles where a person doesn't request it. That way Johny can get his spoils and not take longer for his character to get a check up and Billy will get a little bonus for not asking for anything, and it still is more profitable to earn spoils during a quest since you can get more that way.

[Storm Veritas]

There’s a serious lack of trust between the mods and the players and it needs to stop, if someone uses the gun or spell unfairly that it guarantees the opponents loss he’ll really get screwed in the score under strategy, rising action and wildcard.

There are two major elements at play here on Althanas.
1. Roleplaying
2. Writing

The we use the latter to open up our ability to more effectively and creatively do the first. That said, although common sense should prevail, RoG mods are critically needed to detect and prevent abuse IN ROLEPLAYING.

Remember that in battles, if I write with you, and I use all kinds of cheap, stupid loopholes to promote my chances of winning IC (which makes no difference, aside from perhaps a strategy score), it really hurts your ability to write. You are forced into writing against an overpowered opponent, and it puts you in an unfair spot.

In order to prevent this, and allow for equal footing for both the writing AND roleplaying facets of Althanas, RoG mods effectively work to limit the powers owned by the players in the game.

Sadly, they are needed. People HAVE tried to exploit loopholes, both on Althanas and at every writing site I've seen. For whatever reason, some people get a big ego boost out of having a very powerful character. These overpowered characters make for bad writing, boring threads, and a worse place to come to write.

[Dissinger]

But then why have deducted EXP for requesting spoils then, wouldn't it be counterproductive for both Billy and Johnny and Althanas as a whole to have Johny level up slower for asking for spoils when the level profile is just reguarded as double checking to make sure Johny's character is still fair with the spoils. I think the solution is pretty easy, give out gold more regularly to quests and battles where a person doesn't request it. That way Johny can get his spoils and not take longer for his character to get a check up and Billy will get a little bonus for not asking for anything, and it still is more profitable to earn spoils during a quest since you can get more that way.

I don't think we've slashed exp spoils in awhile for abilities, at least not since the exp equation. And as you've said we have given gold out more fluently. We basically stopped from having any sort of thing occur when you post, hence why points and the five gold per post is gone. To make up for that judges have been giving out gold, sure in 2-3 hundred batches, but its still alot more than these people could get through the five gold per post.

Hell, I'm sure you remember your quest with Meow. I STILL gave you gold despite the spoil request of an ability.