Writting in other settings [Archive]

Vigil

04-20-12, 01:33 PM

I tried putting my own piece and spin on Althanas for awhile. Its occurred with different characters, some more subtle than others. But Liam was the first real vibrant taste of something other than fantasy that I had cooked up in awhile. The first thread I ever accomplished with Liam pretty much laid it out for me on whether it was worth it or not. My setting score was butchered and it contributed to an overall lack of commentary but a very centralized focus on how 'detached' I was from Althanas. Seriously. Admittedly, the story wasn't really that great because I had forced myself to seperate it into two parts, but the time I spent on it, the effort involved and finally deciding to just put a period on it and move on left me very bitter. The score didn't bother me, necessarily, but the commentary which just seemed to glaze over what I had probably spent more then a year constructing was like a slap in the face. The only thing that really seemed to put a silver lining to it was the abnormally large experience payout I received for it.

Over a year and a half, of probably my better work, I get a level out of it and told that the character I had approved here and the way I wrote didn't 'mesh' with the Althanas vibe. Probably just that judge, I suspect, but I definitely got the message that Catholicism, Irish and Victorian flavor aren't welcomed here.

EDIT: It might not always be that case, I guess. But I'd really recommend that if you want to try something 'outside the box', take what people tell you with a huge fucking grain of salt.

Rayse Valentino

04-20-12, 01:52 PM

You don't need to post in creative endeavors to have non-fantasy settings. Just take a trip into the planes.

Duffy

04-20-12, 01:59 PM

Catholicism is Earth...Victorian is Earth...you got a low setting score because you completely ignored it, that was your choice, and knowing the Rubric well, you gambled with it.

Althanas is presently a fixed setting environment. Instead of adapting your ideals to suit the world you role-play in, you chose to write something entirely pervasive of Earth's history and attempted to fit it, badly, into a fixed environment.

That was your choice, Vigil, and no fault of anyone else.

In an ideal world, this would be an open writing community, but, Althanas has always been a setting specific role-playing forum. There are ways to adapt ideas, and ways to integrate, but feeling victimised because you made no effort to fuse your writing, character, and style with the canvas provided was entirely your call.

I am, by all means, interested in other settings. However, I don't come to Althanas to sate that curiosity.

Why?

This is Althanas. It is not a website, it is a specific setting, I enjoy it, and I wish to continue in that vein. If I want futuristic, I go elsewhere. If I want poetry, I go to poet's corner. I'm all for diversification, by all means, but let's not kid ourselves - there's pandering to the masses, and then there's losing the point of Althanas to begin with.

Celestus

04-23-12, 05:38 PM

I mostly write in modern day for my own writings. I just finished my supernatural horror novel after seven years, so I need a change of pace really badly. I also like super hero writing and Pokemon, but it's hard to find a mature group for those.

Vigil

04-23-12, 07:03 PM

Catholicism is Earth...Victorian is Earth...you got a low setting score because you completely ignored it, that was your choice, and knowing the Rubric well, you gambled with it.

Actually, I didn't. The expressed purpose of that thread was an introductory thread, to introduce my character and begin interwining it with Althanas. If you had bothered to read it, you'd also notice how I played my unnatural setting in Radasanth. Not only did I do that, but I also tailored my ideas to the world I was having Liam go into. I realize this is going to turn into a fight really just over preference, but I find your accusation to be completely baseless. Liam, his cabal and everything in it interacted with the Althanian environment. I even made direct comparisons and alluded to what was happening by having a group of people from a different world and a different time period interacting with Coronians. They used it to their advantage and began to take over. And I managed to do this in great detail.

So, before you decide to give me a knee-jerk reaction for raking one of your fellow judges over the coals, I'd suggest giving your attacks a bit more consideration and do a bit more research next time. Adds to the venom and substance to it, if that's what you were going for. Instead, you're coming off pompous and lacking. Again.

Althanas is presently a fixed setting environment.

Really now? I'll admit, this is a fantasy setting, but Althanas has always been accepting of different styles and writers of all different stripes. However, there are numerous examples of people who create characters from earth (earthers, I think the term once was) and have been relatively successful with them. In The Name of Mudd is an example of this. The person who owns this site, your boss, has a character who uses berettas, something not really Althanian if we're going to use your definition. And a weapon that most of this population doesn't have access to without jumping through a series of hoops. Justification?

Althanas is fluid, not fixed. It always has been. Before your time, and would probably still be long after you hit the bricks.

Instead of adapting your ideals to suit the world you role-play in, you chose to write something entirely pervasive of Earth's history and attempted to fit it, badly, into a fixed environment.

I'm going to be rather nice in the way I put this, Duffy, more to your benefit then to mine. You have got to have some pretty big stones to be telling me anything I've written is bad, let alone pervasive in its origin. I admit what I chose was very difficult to fit into this kind of setting, but I managed to. And to be honest with you, I took you for many things, thick-headed being one of them, but being narrow-minded? Please. I think the time you've spent during Althanas' hibernation as its sole source of activity for a couple months is beginning to get to your head.

Oh, and.. a fluid environment, right?

That was your choice, Vigil, and no fault of anyone else.

Yes, you are right on this account. It was my choice to write in this manner. I also submitted this knowing the risks that what I was doing would be unappreciated by a judge who really didn't care for this on their website. But, what I hadn't expected was that a judge who held onto my thread for over two weeks in a period of Althanas' downtime merely glazed over something I spent more then a year writing. And once it was done, post commentary that was very, very light and offering little substance other than, 'This isn't Althanian. I'm docking you for it.'

To be honest with you, if I had been merely docked for it, I'd have been less angry. The fact that at the time of reading that judgment I was fairly certain the judge skimmed over it, cherry-picked things they didn't care for and used the fact I had used an unorthodox method for writing my thread as an umbrella for their criticism really pissed me off.

In an ideal world, this would be an open writing community, but, Althanas has always been a setting specific role-playing forum.
There are ways to adapt ideas, and ways to integrate, but feeling victimised because you made no effort to fuse your writing, character, and style with the canvas provided was entirely your call.

No effort? Duffy. In your time here, there have been very few things that you've ever said that have gotten under my skin, and this would have been, if I hadn't realized how baseless and wild your accusations are. As they usually are. I worked on this thread for a very long time and had it proofread by many people. I also made sure to incorporate my setting in a matter that it could be tailored and in further writing would eventually assimilate to Althanas. I may have finished only part of it, but I believe I am relatively successful in it. I apologize if it isn't quite your cup of tea, but I insist that the next time that you run to another person's defense, especially if its against somebody you so loathe, that you actually support your accusations then merely make them and hope to your God I have a stroke before I can pick them apart.

I'm disappointed, Duffy. Try harder.

This is Althanas. It is not a website, it is a specific setting, I enjoy it, and I wish to continue in that vein. If I want futuristic, I go elsewhere. If I want poetry, I go to poet's corner. I'm all for diversification, by all means, but let's not kid ourselves - there's pandering to the masses, and then there's losing the point of Althanas to begin with.

It is a website. And while you have spent a vast majority of your time establishing your mythos with a massive cast of characters, which is commendable by the way, it isn't your website. It has always had a fluid setting. For whatever reason. Maybe its because we've always had people from different walks of life with different styles of writing and Althanas has always welcomed people in favor of activity. Maybe most region writers were lazy (they weren't) and kept things open-ended so people can write things as they see fit. Either way, Althanas has appealed to different settings, different genres and fantasy has always been the standby for everyone else. Whether you like my style or what I managed to produce, I don't really care, but I'm not the first to have done this and I certainly won't be the last. But I'm sure by the time I'm done with it, I will be one of them who has done it in more detail and attempted to work a story in where an outsider goes into Althanas and begins to assimilate to it.

Wow, what an entirely lazy thing to do and with absolutely no effort, right?

Sagequeen

04-23-12, 08:02 PM

I come here, to Althanas, to write in a mostly persistent setting with other people. Since our setting is alike, I can pick up and write with anyone, anytime... and that's the point of what we do as RP'ers, is it not? We need common ground, literally.

If I want to write something outside of this world we have here, I do. I do no expect the rules to be bent or broken for me and my solo thread, and especially if it was presented inside an Althanas region, as a normal thread, with a request for light commentary. And I certainly wouldn't make or break my participation in a group of people based on one person's observations.

Now then, with that said, I think there should be an avenue for writers who want to branch out. I, as a judge, would not mind accommodating writers because, overall, it's about giving and receiving feedback to improve on either avenue. I think a single section would suffice where Outlands does not.

And as an aside, off topic:

Vigil, rake me over the proverbial coals as much as you please; it doesn't change anything. I simply abided by the standards that everyone else on this site is expected to uphold, hence the necessity of this thread.

If you had an issue with Born Under a Bad Star judgment, you really should have taken it up with the judgment staff then, but I'll take it up here and now, considering it was mine, and you requested light commentary. If you wanted something more in-depth for all your hard work, you should have requested full/full. And so you know, I did not merely skim over it, and that's why it took me a whole week, not two. Any mod is welcome to look at both your request and my turnaround time on it.

There is also no need to make petty assumptions or personal arguments/attacks here; this is a poll for peoples' opinions on whether or not they would like other settings, and I won't be drawn into it beyond what I've said, and this: there was nothing below a 7 except for Setting and Wildcard. That is exceptional. PM me or AIM me, and I'll be more than happy to address your concerns personally. I always want to help in any way I can. Heck, I'll even redo the judgment (not for forum exp, but for your obvious effort and benefit) according to a forum section that disregards traditional Althanas setting, simply to prove a point that is relevant to this thread.

We need an outlet for people like you. We need a place for talented writers to write what they want to write and still get the incredible benefit that Althanas offers: feedback.

Enigmatic Immortal

04-23-12, 08:47 PM

Super...hero...?

*looks for mask*

Atzar

04-23-12, 10:05 PM

Keep this thread on the intended topic, please.

Connor Lacuna

04-24-12, 03:33 PM

Well, I get ideas about bringing in characters from other realms sometimes, or from Earth, or whatever. I actually ended up starting a small introductory thread for one, but I'll wait until I have a few threads under Connor's belt to finish it. Mostly, though, I've been writing things for my current character and genre. Sometimes, it's just better to keep things simple, in my opinion.

Luned

04-24-12, 06:04 PM

I came here because I like the cohesive setting. I have other places I go for other genres. It's not that I like one more than the other; they're different beasts for different moods and inspirations.

Savas Tigh

04-26-12, 10:31 PM

I went to the moon.

That is all.

Amber Eyes

04-27-12, 02:25 AM

I've been thinking about this a lot, and while I think it would be cool to see what people would come up with given more setting options I worry about our current activity being divided more than it already is. If it drives activity that would be amazing, but if it simply pulls activity from the regions then I think it will do more harm than good. I don't want to see the fantasy world I've come to enjoy turn into just an option on the site. On the other hand, I'm incredibly biased because this is the only place I've ever written and I probably have no idea how much fun I might have in another setting.

So, I've kind of stayed out of it until I came across this thread. (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?3523-The-possible-return-of-quot-Vignettes-quot) I know we have our Vignettes every month, but I like the idea of allowing us to write something unrelated to our current character. I also see this as a chance to see what kind of reception free setting would have without actually diving in headfirst to something. All too often there is an idea pitched, and its wonderful and everyone gets excited but then when its put into practice no one participates once the newness wears off. I'm thinking boss battles, writers workshop. ect...

I'm kind of getting longwinded here, so....

Basically, I'd like to see us do a test run through some type of temporary feature before anyone takes the time to implement a whole new forum that may or may not take off.

The International

05-05-12, 12:48 PM

Althanas settings seem diverse enough to satisfy most of my cravings. We've got like three places where the medieval atmosphere is present. If I want to go exotic, I've got Fallien and Dheathain, if I want lot's of magic I can use Raiaera, and one only has to stretch the imagination so much to convince a reader that some may even have electricity in Alerar. Aspects of the settings around here are not perimeters or boundaries to me, holding me to a pattern, or discouraging me from going in one direction, but more like stepping stones, encouraging me to go in another with enthusiasm. Very seldom do I have to use another world, but if I do it's either cyberpunk, a space opera, a historical drama, or a comedy using jokes that depend on real life references.

Gable Rose

05-05-12, 07:48 PM

I've always been interested in sci-fi, modern fantasy, and fantasy like Althanas, but my heart is mostly in a steam-punk style world. If I could find a site like althanas, that has the established world to build on with the fun game-like aspect of levels and exp I'd be there. Most other sites are really hard to work with when they have that though, too strict and closed to allow for too much creativity, while other sites allow for any type of character and the stories told are for fun but without any real reward. I don't need to write super-powered characters with other people, and would like to know that at least one person read something I wrote other than those involved and also might have some sort of feedback.

If you could take the althanas system and replicate it with modern fantasy, sci-fi, or steampunk I'd be on that site asap.

absentwizard

05-05-12, 09:51 PM

I have a soft spot for high fantasy magitek settings. I think they're a beautiful fusion.

Visla Eraclaire

05-15-12, 05:20 PM

The idea that Althanas is a rigid setting that doesn't accept non-traditional stuff is utter horseshit and the idea that it "always has been" is even more preposterous.

My first character, winner of JCs, and mentioned several times in Visla and other character's back story is a powered-armor wearing, energy sword weilding, blaster pistol firing, dimension-hopping science fiction monstrosity. His people were from the future of our Earth and had become planeswalkers through advanced technology. Visla has RPed in the city founded by him and was awarded ownership of it as a spoil. My highest rated quest of all time was set in that city.

I even made another Eudaemonian fairly recently (1 or 2 years ago) and was approved without question or complaint. He beat another character in a tournament expressly by playing a fish-out-of-water outsider.

Frankly, Althanas has more characters from "somewhere else" that being a strange unusual minority is basically the default.

Any idea that you have to play with the high fantasy setting and can't insert your own stuff is revisionist history at best. The fact that it's being vocally espoused by a relative newbie like Duffy is no surprise. Max Dirks has guns. Riddle me that, Duffman.

I've always been interested in sci-fi, modern fantasy, and fantasy like Althanas, but my heart is mostly in a steam-punk style world. If I could find a site like althanas, that has the established world to build on with the fun game-like aspect of levels and exp I'd be there. Most other sites are really hard to work with when they have that though, too strict and closed to allow for too much creativity, while other sites allow for any type of character and the stories told are for fun but without any real reward. I don't need to write super-powered characters with other people, and would like to know that at least one person read something I wrote other than those involved and also might have some sort of feedback.

If you could take the althanas system and replicate it with modern fantasy, sci-fi, or steampunk I'd be on that site asap.

Do what I did, just put yourself on an island somewhere in relative isolation and go with it. The city I mentioned, Uiria, is basically a steam-punk/magitech city at this point... of course I haven't written or played significantly in a long time.

Hysteria

05-16-12, 08:26 AM

I always found that the best writers merged creativity and application of ideas. You might want a to use your own race, so you have to think of how you apply that to Althanas.

I have two characters, one a subterranean humanoid and the other a humanoid plant. I made the first from a small village located high in the mountains where they were sheltered from most of Althanas, and built the story of their isolation explaining why no one had heard of his race. The other one I made from the Red Forrest and explained her as a freak plant born of wild magics. I had the idea for both of these characters way before I melded them into the setting. Although I wouldn't list myself among those 'best writers', its an example of what I think works.

If you could take the althanas system and replicate it with modern fantasy, sci-fi, or steampunk I'd be on that site asap.

I quite like the idea of steampunk too, but it is not necessarily separated from Althanas based technology. The basic needs of steampunk would be what? Metal work, steam powered engines and an extremely high precision of... well dials, cogs and stuff? Dwarves for example might be able to make some basic steampunk stuff with little change from the core setting. You then have your character learn from some old dwarf kicked out of his home because of his crazy inventions. (for example)

I went to the moon.

That is all.

I was just starting a solo where Talen goes to the moon! You got a link to yours so I can steal compare ideas?

The International

05-21-12, 03:04 PM

This is slightly disturbing, so I have to ask.

Why do you guys feel like you need to go somewhere else for what's being provided for you in Althanas right now? It's not that I'm against creating your own region. I do that myself, and that's what the Outlands are for. Gable Rose, if your heart is in steampunk (mine is too) then why aren't you using Alerar, which is basically a steampunk nation with airships, experiments, and firearms abound? Absent wizard, I see that you're using Raiaera and taking liberties with it, which is beautiful. You like high fantasy, and that's what that region is for. Visla, to call all of Althanas' regions high fantasy is just as revisionist as what you're accusing Duffy of. You're right. Althanas isn't a rigid setting, and you're also right when you say most characters are from 'somewhere else' but I'd like to know why when Corone and Salvar provide low fantasy, Raiaera provides high fantasy, Alerar provides steampunk, Fallien and Dheathain are whatever the hell they are?

Now don't get me wrong. The tone of the previous paragraph seems defensive, but it's not. I just don't have another way of putting that out there, and I want to know honestly, what discourages people from using what we have. Is there not enough info, is there too much info, should it be stated outright what every region can represent, is someone afraid of taking too much liberties with the world and getting a shitty score like Vigil said (which is feel is an isolated case. Caden Law/Savas Tigh has blown up an island nation, gone to the moon, REPLACED A CANONISED CITY [and hasn't given a flying fuck], and has been rewarded for it), what is it?

Connor Lacuna

05-21-12, 04:37 PM

I don't think that too much info is the problem. I'm pretty sure there's less than 50 pages on the wiki, total, and for some people that do well with that kind of information, it seems lacking. I personally don't mind doing research into a subject when I write about it, but others do. I think that some kind of 'middle ground' might be the best option, like having a (somewhat) rigid and researchable mythos in place, while still allowing people to take liberties within their stories. I like that Althanas doesn't mind when you utterly break the canon, but sometimes I wish it had more of a canon in the first place.

Vigil

05-21-12, 05:16 PM

The setting isn't the problem. Honestly. Althanas has a variety of resources and places for you to use as you see fit. The problem is that some people take that too much to heart and begin applying their views onto others, which might work well if you're trying to produce or manufacture a product.. it doesn't work so well when you're in a creative environment and trying to get people to be active and keep the site open. That problem is very much compounded when those people are put into positions of authority and have influence over other members of this site.

I never understood why people get so up in arms if people aren't writing or playing or doing what the fuck ever if it isn't the way the other person thinks that they ought to do it. That's a really backwards, close-minded thing to do, demand and ask of somebody. Especially in a small community such as this that earlier last year was absolutely desperate for new blood and beginning to choke on DuffyPetrol. So instead of even discussing the mere idea of partitioning this site off and dividing the people up between this person writes fantasy, this person writes horror, this person doesn't, that we take a step back from it. Instead of dividing people into camps or providing places for people like us to write that the judges need to, at least in my case, lighten up and read what is put out to you and consider it wholly. Regardless if its light commentary or not.

Critique it, evaluate it, judge it. But do it. I was absolutely disgusted in the past few years when I had judges admitting to me that they hadn't been even reading threads they took and just assigning scores to them to get them out of the way. I very much doubt that is a practice that still upholds here, but I really want to stress that if you are selected to be a judge that you actually do it, instead of being worried about the infamous and dreaded backlog. You volunteered for it. We appreciate you doing it and taking time out of your schedule to provide us with your service, but that is a choice that you made and no regular member should be made victim to it because you're just feeling lazy that day.

You guys have a lot of responsibility as judges and even though you're selected for it on merit, we as members place a lot of trust and faith in you to do right by us. So if you're an old judge, a new judge or managing them, next time when you're feeling like just skimming over something or getting something out of the way try to take what I've said to heart.

Duffy

05-22-12, 01:02 AM

Is it just me or does it smell like hypocrisy in here?

Hysteria

05-22-12, 06:57 AM

To quickly jump to the judge's defense, it is very hard to judge threads. Not only is there an immense amount to read in your average short thread (not to mention longer ones), it can be hard to formulate and assign scores. The flaw in any judgement like this is that there will be a fair amount, if not nearly completely, based on the judge's personal preferences, style and knowledge. To put it a more unfavorably way, their bias.

The only way to actually remove bias completely is to make the task judged on black and white responses, similar to a multiple choice answer sheet. Because that is impossible however, we will always have some measure of bias. We can either endlessly debate how we can stop that, or continually argue about the rubric, or whatever, or we can take a much more relaxed approach. If a judge constantly raises something that people feel is outside what they should be measuring, then we can have a discussion about that. A simple tool that might be worthwhile looking at is ensuring that judges raise positive and negatives in someone's judgement. It might sound cliche, but can really improve how feedback is taken.

My response? Thank judges for taking the time to respond to the thread, make them feel valued (as they are for me) and take worthwhile comments from their judgements and leave the ones that I either don't agree with or simply can't implement. The approach of arguing or worrying about the score will just lead to less enjoyment. It probably helps that I am a far greater critic of my writing than anyone else.

Rayse Valentino

05-22-12, 03:28 PM

I'm pretty sure he's specifically talking about judges who rush through threads without really reading them, not bias. Way back when I had to judge the 2nd tournament in Althanas' history on my own, I was somewhat guilty of that. Mainly because the participants involved were just... illiterate? Maybe it was the quality of the site back then. Regardless, it wasn't really fair to them so I never judged again. I don't think anyone who doesn't want to actually read the thread they're judging should be a judge. Period. There is no excuse for that shit. They should be immediately shitcanned if they're caught doing that. I've had it happen to me extremely obviously and the mod in question is still on the staff, so there's really nothing you can do about it. Just request judges that you know will read the thread.

Anyhow, I don't think this thread is about complaining about judges... How about them settings? Did I mention I'm using a non-Althanas setting in my latest thread? Cuz it's awesome.

Visla Eraclaire

05-22-12, 04:59 PM

Visla, to call all of Althanas' regions high fantasy is just as revisionist as what you're accusing Duffy of. You're right. Althanas isn't a rigid setting, and you're also right when you say most characters are from 'somewhere else' but I'd like to know why when Corone and Salvar provide low fantasy, Raiaera provides high fantasy, Alerar provides steampunk, Fallien and Dheathain are whatever the hell they are?

I had to re-read my post to see where I supposedly did that. I don't think I did, but to the extent that I suggested it, it wasn't intended. The examples listed are correct. Althanas has canonical non-high-fantasy areas. I just don't really know shit about them or frankly much care about "cannon" so I decided to discuss something else. I've actually RPed, to the extent that it has ever been in "canonical" settings, in the "low fantasy" Salvar and Corone. I actually own a piece of Salvar if those FQ rewards had ever been followed through on.

Is it just me or does it smell like hypocrisy in here?

Petty sniping? On my Althanas?

Hysteria

05-23-12, 05:44 AM

Well, I think the ability for writers to set their characters in different settings would be an natural evolution of the topic. But then more on topic might be how we describe our regions.

Could we add a single line or two describing each continent on the Region page in the Compendium? Something as simple as:

Alerar: A land of flourishing industry, of dwarves, men and elf united in the pursuit of metal, coal and steam. Full of people who have suffered great hardships, the country strives forwards on the back its industry.

I duno, something simple that would make someone read through the actual page to get to the good stuff. Generally in a wiki page the first paragraph is an overview of the most important information, and then a section on History, Geography, Industry, Religion, Government, Population and so on.

At the moment you start reading and are faced with history, geography and some demographic information smooshed together. Through all of this we should be asking ourselves, "Will this information be interesting?" and "Will this allow people to RP better?"

I don't mean to be preachy after a long absence, but the majority of wiki sites follow a very specific and purposeful way of setting out their information. The first paragraph should be all you need to get a sense of the place, the rest delves deeper.

@Rayse: I agree, I was more pointing to some of the other comments around judges and settings.

Visla Eraclaire

05-26-12, 08:52 PM

Have you ever noticed the fact that when threads need to get "back on topic" they basically stop? And that the idea that a conversation cannot organically develop to be about something other than the original thread title is asinine? And that being "on topic" tends to basically get invoked when things go in an undesirable (from a certain point of view) direction but by no means an untrue or inappropriate one?

Vigil

05-26-12, 10:06 PM

Silence Sei

05-26-12, 10:22 PM

*Slow Clap for Visla.*

Connor Lacuna

05-26-12, 11:06 PM

*I'll join this motha fuckin slow clap*

Duffy

05-27-12, 02:44 AM

Well if we're all doing seal impressions...

*arf arf*.

*slow clap.

*arf arf*.

Visla Eraclaire

05-27-12, 07:11 AM

Well if we're all doing seal impressions...

*arf arf*.

*slow clap.

*arf arf*.

Duffy, if this is the best snark you can muster, do you not have a part of your brain that says "No, this isn't clever enough to post. I should just take my lumps and accept that people agree with Visla."

Is it the EXP that lures some away from writing stories that don't fit Althanas, or just the inability to get a judgment for such a piece of writing, or is it just the lack of interest in different settings.

I think we've seen that it certainly isn't lack of interest. And based on the "off topic" discussion of judges it seems to be the fact that there's little point of posting something here that doesn't fit the mold because it won't be given a fair shake by a lot of judges.

It all goes back to the never ending conflict between structure and freedom on the site.

I had an interesting story idea the other day, but as with many of my ideas it required more than just characters; it required the world to be a certain way. I could post it on Althanas, but why bother? It would get a terrible score and any attempt to conform it to Althanas' "standards" would be a waste of time. The abilities of the characters would have to be arbitrarily limited. Perhaps more importantly, I would be placing it somewhere out of my control.

While it may not seem like it, there are sacrifices made in choosing to post a story on Althanas as opposed to elsewhere, or nowhere (i.e. keeping it on ones own hard drive or on such a quaint thing as paper). When the site fails to offer anything in return for these sacrifices in the form of meaningful judging or community acceptance, there's no point in making them.

A Passenger

05-27-12, 12:46 PM

Visla Eraclaire

05-27-12, 03:06 PM

I remember a little bit more leeway and openness on the part of the judges, back in the day. That was nice. I wrote a quest with some folks about a city called "Gillette Sensor Excel" with golden roads. I found a ring that sprouted icarus wings. It scored decently well, considering the whole premise was "DO ANYTHING IN THIS QUEST". Judge thought it was amusing.

The earlier administrations were more open minded. I think there are two reasons for that. 1) Early on there was less continuity and therefore less cruft for them to get all hung up on. 2) Early on there was more activity and people didn't feel the need to overcompensate for the visible failure by getting "serious" about things

Connor Lacuna

05-28-12, 10:05 AM

Why would being serious help the situation?

Duffy

05-28-12, 11:00 AM

I wasn't disagreeing with you Visla, wherever you're right or not is not the point.

Why the hatred for seals?

Visla Eraclaire

05-28-12, 12:00 PM

Why would being serious help the situation?

I get the impression that certain short-sighted people think that a "serious" roleplaying site with "serious" background is more appealing than one without structure. In fact, I think that is not true, but that the belief is born of the fact that the administration cannot control the random fortuity that tends to result in people coming and going and they CAN control the background story of the site.

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I wasn't disagreeing with you Visla, wherever you're right or not is not the point.

Why the hatred for seals?

What is the point then, other than your complete ineffectiveness?

Duffy

05-28-12, 12:06 PM

Boredom, amusement, and a lot of liquor.

What else?

Visla Eraclaire

05-28-12, 02:02 PM

Boredom, amusement, and a lot of liquor.

What else?

That's a good summary of the reasons why you're completely ineffective. With "amusement" of course being confined to your own masturbatory amusement at your own lack of wit.

Duffy

05-28-12, 02:34 PM

Ineffective? At doing what?

You've expressed your views. Some people agreed, others did not (quell your abhorrent shock), move on.

I'd love to get into a flame war with you, you know, for the sake of the good ol' times (circa 2010), but life's too short, there's too many awesome things in life to do, and if you're not happy with the site...

Why are you still here?

Vigil

05-28-12, 03:46 PM

Ineffective? At doing what?

To put it plainly and without venom, he's asserting that you're not contributing to this discussion in a way that is positive or really negative, but just making noise in order to make it known you disagree with what is being said without actually giving your opinion. This can be construed as attempting to have a voice in an argument merely to have a plausible defense after the fact that while either of us have attempted to peel back layers and reveal faults in the system, something many do not enjoy viewing (why would they?) you have not been silent while doing so.

Instead of expressing your opinion and contributing to the discussion, you're attempting to either genuinely derail it or bait Visla, and earlier myself, into doing it for you in order to stop the discussion entirely.

We're not dumb, Duffy, and your ploys don't work, especially when they have been done so.. how was it said earlier.. ineffectively?

You've expressed your views. Some people agreed, others did not (quell your abhorrent shock), move on.

Projecting your disagreement onto others through veiled remarks and bait tactics is not a way to change the topic, or in your words to move on. Visla is valid in what he is saying here, and while I know you would love to let it continue to stew and fester like it has for years, he has a right to voice his opinion. And in this context, which could be defined as genuine, but poor trolling you are attempting to bait him into an argument in order to cause somebody more verbose then yourself and with a tad bit more leverage to shut down the discussion through intervention.

A poor attempt, but well thought out, if accidently.

I'd love to get into a flame war with you, you know, for the sake of the good ol' times (circa 2010), but life's too short, there's too many awesome things in life to do, and if you're not happy with the site...

At least you state it plainly here. You're baiting him. You've been doing it in this thread for weeks. First to myself and now to him. I understand why you're doing it. You don't have the tools nor the capacity to debate in a way where you come off on top, so rather then engage in a discussion you are, as I said before, attempting to derail it. Ineffectively.

Visla Eraclaire

05-28-12, 03:58 PM

Ineffective? At doing what?

Why are you still here?

Ineffective at 1) dealing with me posting just about anything 2) judging and 3) whatever other duties you have on the site at this point, since it's a barren wasteland.

I'm still here because I am asked constantly to be and because for mere minutes a day I can express the same opinions I've always held about the site's nature and what it needs to survive at a time when those views have become even more relevant and as a fun side effect make you act like more of a gibbering fool than usual.

Vigil pretty much covered it on more detail than I managed. Time to click some more demons to death.

Duffy

05-28-12, 04:14 PM

This (http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/4db77_ORIG-look_at_all_the_fucks_i_give.jpg) is the gayest, and thus most character appropriate one I could find.

You're right, though. I die inside when you post, and I can't judge anything at all and I'm the worst person on staff ever.

Jasmine

05-28-12, 04:19 PM

Uukan Kimari

05-28-12, 04:30 PM

I've had so many arguments with mods because they don't or won't listen to reason. Though I know they often peruse threads because some of the details aren't inked/bolded for their viewing over minor details like read previous thread in a tournament. I don't care about winning, but I feel like I don't deserve a negative on something I don't deserve. Max Dirks gave me and an entire round 12 or less in scoring because no one wrote the way he preferred. The highest score was a 40 by some of the best writers on Althanas. I am all for improving writing style, but it gets to the point where the judge hinders improvement by giving vague advice like "use more metaphors" and not explaining where a one would be needed.

Now about "other settings" I believe no mod should deduct points for using materials alien to Althanas, since characters made for Althanas are not meant to be limited to the setting but evolve beyond and fill the setting with our imaginations. Duffs may be a mod, but he clearly has no idea where or why Althanas was made. He is part of the few who still believe that we must limit our creativity and stifle what meager ideas we come up with. I have been part of communities that tried to do this and others that were completely freeform. Neither worked well or lasted because of no new blood and the lack of boundaries.

As much as the rules that stated characters couldn't be from earth or "had a good reason" did not last forever because no one followed them and made characters from other settings. Some even merged Althanas with their worlds or backgrounds. Saying we can't use materials from earth is an outdated process that should be wiped from everyone's mind and be burned in a trash can of thought processes.

A Passenger

05-28-12, 04:49 PM

It can be tough to be a moderator and/or judge and receive criticism, just because it takes a lot of practice to take it in stride and not as a personal affront. It's something everyone needs to get used to.

Althanas has always had these discussions going... always. And sometimes very good things come from it, though most of the time nothing will change until a lot of time has passed. I guess I'm trying to say that I (mostly) value these discussions. When they're actually discussions, anyway.

Visla Eraclaire

05-28-12, 05:27 PM

How would someone with (and I cannot make these quotation marks emphatic enough) "authority" like to address these comments with something other than childish petulence or attempts to get the thread "under control"?

Address the substance instead of paying heed to the fire works. As Vigil points out, Duffy's whole aim in pissing at me is to get me to react in such a way that an excuse can be made to end the discussion. I'm afraid I won't oblige.

How does adherence to a back story dictated by a few and never recognized or acknowledge by the majority help the activity or creativity of the site? It does not. That should be end of it, but evidently the problem persists. If there is a counter-argument I'd be interested to hear it but so far I haven't.

Silence Sei

05-28-12, 07:08 PM

How does adherence to a back story dictated by a few and never recognized or acknowledge by the majority help the activity or creativity of the site? It does not. That should be end of it, but evidently the problem persists. If there is a counter-argument I'd be interested to hear it but so far I haven't.

You answered your own question Visla, and while I may not have the 'Authority' you're actually seeking, I'm going to go out and say there is no counter argument. I agree that while continuity to Althanas as a whole -could- be important, our member base as of right now indicates that we should be focusing less on it, and more on bringing people back to the site to roleplay for fun. I always tried to judge the 'continuity' category as effecting the characters own continuity moreso than Althanas itself, which is how it always should be. As a member who has characters that not only come from Earth or other planets, and make Modern-era quips, I feel we shouldn't have to have our characters involved with the 'planet' of Althanas as a whole to be judged well. Some of the best writers on the site, and I include you and Vigil in that category, don't havereal 'roots' in Althanas with several characters, as it were.

Now, does that mean Letho should get bonus points for mentioning things that have happened in Althanas continuity, as is character is Althanas based? Sure, but I don't think it should belong in the Continuity category, but rather the wildcard, as it indicates folks want to involve themselves so much they went an extra mile. However, it should not stop Vislas, or Vigils, or Leopold Stevens' from attaining high scores.

Visla, you make a valid point, and I would love to hear what ideas you have for making Althanas a more popular place. I'm attempting to subtley recruit from other sites, but it's going at a slow pace. If you could pitch some of your ideas to me via PM, IM or even Facebook, I will look over and try to apply them. As far as the judges thing goes, why not apply to be one yourself? You're obviously well qualified, and you spend 'a few minutes' each day lurking on the site, why not spend some of that time going over other people's threads, and judging them? We could use the help.

Duffy, Jasmine. Neither of you have been contributing anything meaningful in this thread for your last couple of posts. I would like to ask that if you have some sort of vendetta against Vigil or Visla, to keep it to yourself. Letho started this discussion to gauge how people would like writing in other settings, and Vigil and Visla are both voicing solid points. This isn't a place to argue about petty details, but to answer Letho's question. I know my last post wasn't anything substantial as well, but that was a single post. IF you'd like to tell us (or tell us again, if the case may be) how you'd like to write in 'another setting', by all means let us know, but otherwise, please be courteous to others, and not provoke anything that will result in this thread having to be closed.

The International

05-28-12, 07:42 PM

I hear criticisms, lot's of criticisms. And yes they're all valid, but my biggest issue with most of these ooc debates is that one side attacks the other with criticisms (disgruntled members), the other side goes into defense mode (staff), and no solutions are even mentioned. If anyone offered any in this thread I apologize for missing it, but can you blame me? I knew I was asking for all this when I posted a few pages back, but I was really hoping to hear something of a solution.

And when I say solution, I mean a real solution, not some action generated by spite. (ex. fire him/her)

Jasmine

05-28-12, 07:57 PM

Connor Lacuna

05-28-12, 08:02 PM

Well, it seems that there are three options to take, as far as backstory goes.

1: Go on a two-week bender with the staff and a couple volunteers, and churn out a well-established backstory.
a) You then proceed to make that official canon and judge continuity and setting based upon that
b) You judge the quality of the writing in context, making 'setting' a matter of detail and 'continuity' a matter of intelligibility.

2: Forsake the backstory, making it either irrelevant to the rules and the judges, or deleting it entirely.
a) This opens the option of releasing the wiki to the likes of the common users, at which point there would either be intelligent world-building or an impossible-to-contain shitstorm over everything.
b) Or, you could just not have anything beyond a bare-bones setting, and allow for the maximum amount of creative control.

3: Leave everything how it is, in a remarkable decision that it isn't worth the trouble.

I believe that nobody should get knocked for writing out-of-place, even to the extreme that Vigil did. His 'setting' wasn't in Althanas, but it worked for him, and as far as continuity went, I didn't see any problem. I haven't read all of his threads, either, but for what I saw it seemed well-written enough. I feel that the occasional romp through a decidedly non-canon setting should be judged fairly, but also that Althanas should be the core of the action here. It's up to the admins how it ends up happening in the end, I suppose. I just felt I should throw my two cents in.

Visla Eraclaire

05-28-12, 08:25 PM

Sei, shut up. All I was doing was telling people to stop being jerkface idiots and to be civil since no one else seemed to notice the direction this was/is heading. My opinions on the subject are just that, mine and I'm keeping them to myself. And at least my above post does something more than encourage a jerk to continue being a jerk.

Don't worry, I'm this way without any encouragement. Have been for years.

And let's get real here for a moment, nothing, not ONE thing has EVER happened on Althanas because someone made a quiet, polite request through official channels.

As far as practical solutions, yikes. I dunno if all my old threads from back when I had a stake in the site are still around, but I'll try to dredge them up.

On this topic, it's as simple as stop having anyone think that "Althanas canon" means anything and stop rating people down for being creative outside of the little box you built.

Frankly though, this particular topic is the tip of a very big iceberg. There are numerous underlying issues, but the one that is most exemplified by this thread I think is the historical disconnect between staff and members. Lots of people have been on both sides, but the most irritating thing that always stuck in my craw when I was on staff was the idea that showing dissent in public while on staff was completely unacceptable and staff conversations were to be completely secluded away from the general populace.

Alright J Edgar, you aren't running a fucking secret government agency. It's a message board. Althanas needs to be culturally less top-down and more open. It needs to be a community with those willing to give their time to help the community from different angles rather than a rigid class system with those on the "inside" feverishly clinging to their staff secrets. There's nothing interesting going on in the staff forum ever, but heads have rolled for giving away so much as of a whiff of the stupid crap that goes on in there.

If the community writ-large felt a larger investment in the site and an ability to move things forward, write their own stories the way they want to and get feedback from a community of interested like-minded people, that would be great.

Frankly, the tired rules and level system seem as silly and quaint as a rotary phone. Althanas will always be a game to some people, but frankly, I think it would be better off letting those people make their own rules amongst themselves. Limit powers and abilities for tournaments and "battles" as a matter of agreement between the participants. That's all it really ever is anyway, even if judges are "enforcing it." For everyone else, do what you will, enjoy it, get your feedback, grow your characters and build a community.

Make Althanas a place where if you have a good idea, the staff will facilitate making it happen rather than drowning it in the cesspit that is committee decision maiking.

Edit: I'm being frankly frank. Frankly.

Rayse Valentino

05-28-12, 08:38 PM

The International

05-28-12, 09:15 PM

See? That shit is beautiful.

Connor Lacuna

05-29-12, 01:42 AM

Mistletien

05-29-12, 02:02 AM

Continuity should be a category that judges consistency, not how well it adheres to Althanas canon. Were your character's or the other actions in the thread consistent with the world that was crafted? Are your own characters' actions internally consistent? That's what continuity is supposed to be, I thought. Sei is right about his view on continuity.
I would dare to say that there's no real problem with this; at least, that I have seen. Judges seem to be using Continuity as exactly that. I can't think of a thread I've read where Continuity has been treated as canon-only by the Judge.

The setting category, I think, is pointless. I mentioned it before. There used to be a category called dialogue and it was done away for the same reason setting should be: Lack thereof does not indicate low quality. Writers should not include setting for the sake of setting alone, it's an element of the story. The quality of Story is affected by Setting, so really what you're doing is ripping an element out of Story and giving it its own half-assed category. I suggest either getting rid of it and going with a 90-point rubric or replacing it with something else. Maybe it's difficult because you made Story a 10-point category when really the whole thing is Story. It's vague. Maybe get rid of Setting, and divide Story into Conflict and Resolution. Most of the loss of points happens when the conflict isn't believable, or when it's resolved in a contrived way.
I have to disagree with the Setting part; at least, the statement that it is pointless. However, I do agree with the latter part of that area; "Lack thereof does not indicate low quality". It is the same thing as individuals mixing quantity with quality when it comes to overall writing; something I strongly push against and disagree with. That said, I do believe Setting is an important part of the rubric; just that it should be Judged not by how many times someone says 'the grass was green', but perhaps how well they drove a picture into the reader's mind. How well they placed this area and how not just their character but the life (or lack of) around them integrated with it. Many good authors have been able to do this with a mere couple of sentences, embracing not just sight but smell, taste, etcetera to ascertain the environment. So yes, on that point, I disagree with Rayse.

Which moves me on to the Story point, in which, again, I disagree with him; or at least the point that Setting is an integral part of Story. It's...debatable. However, I feel for Althanas purposes, no; especially if Judges were indeed to separate it into Conflict and Resolution, which is an interesting idea...but one I don't see being implemented. Purely for cynical reasons, so I won't state them. That said, I believe a good story can be told without having to force imagery into a reader's mind; that is the beauty of imagination, and 'leaving it up to them'. Again, this is all my opinion, so take it as you will.

My original suggestion was to change rubric and the very style of judging from a 'divvy up all the points at the end' to 'assign points as you go', instead designing a rubric where the categories follow chronologically as you're reading the thread. Introduction, Rising Action, etc.

Anyway this is relevant to setting because it's being treated as a separate thing when it's really very intimately connected to the story. When you're doing a thread, are you thinking about interaction? Are you thinking about strategy? No, you're doing what every other writer does, and consider how the thread flows. Is this part too long? Too short? How do I move the plot along in the best way possible? It's very strange that the current system of judging has a judge thinking very differently from the writer of the thread due to the nature of the rubric categories.
Hmm. The latter part of this paragraph has me thinking. I'll restrain comment for the time being.

Letho

05-29-12, 03:58 AM

I find it rather funny that the rubric is probably the one feature of Althanas we change most often, and yet it's still one feature of Althanas that people complain about the most. From my experience there is no perfect solution nor will there ever be one. Every new rubric has its proponents when it's all shiny and fresh, and then after a while people start complaining about it again and all you really end up doing is nipping a bit here and tucking a bit there and doing it all over again after a while.

Well, that's what I think anyways. I don't really care much about it, to be frank, and it's not the reason why I made this thread. This isn't to say that I discourage the arguments about it, just that I don't really care one way or the other, because I think the current rubric is good, just as I thought that the old rubric was good, and the one before it. Because I'm pretty sure that if you ran a single thread through three different iterations of the rubric, you'll probably get a scores within five points of each other. But by all means, discuss.

The main idea behind this thread, however, was simply to feel the pulse of Althanas when it came to "other settings", because I brought up an idea in the mods section about creating a section of Althanas where such settings would not only be allowed, but encouraged. I'm rather happy with the turnaround, to be honest, and the rather obvious interest in these "other settings".

Rayse Valentino

05-29-12, 04:17 AM

We already have that forum, it's called Outlands.

Letho

05-29-12, 05:44 AM

Yes, there are Outlands, but it doesn't give you full liberty. Your character abilities and equipment are still limited by the rules of Althanas Proper and whichever setting you conjure is still generally considered a part of the Althanas we all know (since Outlands by the current definition are just uncharted parts of Althanas). Sure, there are ways around that, but the fact that you have to find ways around the system in order to write something you want hinders a writer instead of encouraging him. And you can't really add more freedom to the Outlands without breaking Althanas "The Game".

Instead, the idea was to have a part of the site where the Althanas as we know doesn't really matter as far as you can provide a substitute of your own. It would allow writers to explore whichever alternate iteration of Althanas they prefer, at any point in time they prefer, and more. The characters would naturally have to be governed by a different set of rules than on Althanas proper, because you can't use the same rulebook on the characters running around Althanas right now and character running around Althanas in two thousand years or something. But because of the malleability of such world(s), the rules would be surprisingly lax, more common sense than the restrictions we would still have on Althanas proper.

Now, some might say that it would be best to eliminate restrictions altogether, but there's the problem of EXP. It's sort of been the fuel that keeps the Althanas engine running, and by eliminating all restrictions, you eliminate its importance. Of course, some may be proponents of just that, but that would completely eliminate the "game" part out of Althanas. And I'm not sure everybody would be fine with that.

Visla Eraclaire

05-29-12, 05:59 AM

As I told Sei, most of Althanas' rules exist merely to justify themselves. The whole rules system is a house of cards and serves little purpose.

I think that bolder things are necessary than just this, but having free writing that will get judged would be a start.

I'm like Letho in that I think trinkering with the rubric is a waste. Unlike him, I think they're all a pile of shit, but I agree that you'd get the same score under any of them because judging is subjective and most judges I know back into their scores based on their impression of the thread. All the rubric does is hand them flimsy justifications for their intuitions if they're bad or constrain their criticism if they're good.

I think that EXP has a carrot to keep people going is getting stale. The forum needs to be willing to experiment and try different things, and I don't mean just having an administration circle jerk to decide about "4.0." I mean letting members with ideas implement them if they show promise and not putting all your eggs in one basket.

People tend to think of things on the internet in physical terms like Althanas is a big warehouse, and if we use part of it for something and it doesn't work out that space is "wasted." Of course that's not true. We're in no bandwidth danger with this kind of a population and forum content isn't particularly large in terms of data, so we have a lot of room here.

Althanas should let enterprising people homestead, experiment, see what works and what doesn't and popularize and encourage what seems to be working. Keep the "core" game running if you must, but it really is adapt or die time.

Vigil

05-29-12, 07:03 AM

It would be interesting to see some of these experiments. You could actually do it in a very organized way through the RoG in a very simple, non-complicated way. Once these ideas have been proposed and implemented on various parts of the site, have a thread posted in the RoG listing all these 'alpha' experiments with their names, descriptions and locations. Then have a person register for them. "I want in X because of Y. I agree to adhere to the terms of the experiment that I am doing this for." Then just have the moderator come in, reiterate what they said for the sake of clarity and stick it in a subforum in the RoG that can be used as a filing system.

Easy.

Instead of having big swaths of change on the website, it is a really provocative idea to start investing in micro change and seeing how receptive we are to it. Um, instead of repeating the same thing over and over again I'd like to suggest a couple of ideas and refine some of those that were already mentioned for these Alphas. I do so love lists, don't you?

1) A section of the forum cordoned off for people where Althanas rules don't necessarily apply to allow more free-writing and creativity. A simple set of rules and terms would be developed to govern them, but that's pretty much it.

2) A rolling experiment with characters who aren't under the regulation of the RoG to experiment with personal growth versus character regulation. Different from free writing in the sense that these characters are identified and populate Althanas, but they have much more lax restrictions from the RoG. During the experiment, they are identified and adhere to special conditions that allow them this liberty. Over time, it would be interesting to see how a sample of characters would develop and advance without regulation or limited regulation as opposed to what we already have.

At the end, once the characters have been observed long enough, the experiment can end and they can always go back to the RoG and re-register under the rules of 3.0.

3) An experiment using accounts as placeholders. Meaning that the accounts of the users aren't necessarily tied to only one character that has been registered. They can submit work from any perspective, style, etc. and the rewards are applied to the account instead of the character itself. To see what it would be like to give people the ability to just write something and submit it to the website for criticism. They then could apply for gear, items, etc. that they could perhaps use in future writings.. maybe. Idea is still fuzzy, but the concept is there.

The first one is Letho's idea. I kept it simple to retain what he's said without really putting words into his mouth, the other ones are ideas I came up with. One is based on an old argument about RoG regulation and the other is just something to experiment with to see how it works. But anyway, I agree with many who have spoken here. Its time to adapt and change with the times. We have new blood starting to come in, but Althanas should start looking on how to change with the times in order to keep building our member base and fix some of the fundamental flaws in the system.

Alpha experiments are a great way to do this with little risk to the overall site itself and allowing anybody to participate in them gives you an opportunity for comprehensive feedback while offering many new things for members to try for the site's benefit.

Letho

05-29-12, 11:50 AM

I figure we might as well incorporate all three of those in a single feature really. Some of the things said in this thread are similar to what was brought up in the mods subforum in a thread I made a while ago, but some I overlooked. Like the third point Vigil made. I imagined that people would have the freedom to make whatever character they want in this potentially new section of the subforum, but after reading what Vigil wrote, I feel that it might not be necessary to do so. After all, when you read books and short stories, there are no character sheets to look over as you do so, so why not do so here as well? It would be up to the writer to properly introduce and develop the character. Which is something I always felt should be done on Althanas anyways, instead of relying on a character sheet to fill in the blanks. That would, however, almost completely erased the concept of EXP, but as someone once said: times they are a-changing.

Maybe instead of EXP, we can set up some sort of a reputation system, and the more stuff you do, more your reputation grows or something. It wouldn't be necessary to hoard these, but it would still quantify the effort in a way.

The International

05-29-12, 02:39 PM

3) An experiment using accounts as placeholders. Meaning that the accounts of the users aren't necessarily tied to only one character that has been registered. They can submit work from any perspective, style, etc. and the rewards are applied to the account instead of the character itself. To see what it would be like to give people the ability to just write something and submit it to the website for criticism. They then could apply for gear, items, etc. that they could perhaps use in future writings.. maybe. Idea is still fuzzy, but the concept is there.
Crazy thing about that one is... I'm doing it already. Even though Vespasian Villeneuve is my pc, whom I may use in tournaments and battles and such, the account of The International is basically a placeholder for his entire family. If you look at my signature most of the links are to character registrations of his sisters and parents. My first completed quest featured very little of Vespasian and more so told the story of his parents' past. It scored very well. I took it a step further in a solo where Vespasian may have only been in the last quarter of the quest, but it was told mostly from the perspective of his parents and focused on their romance. Now to add to it, I have two ongoing quests in which he's nowhere to be found, Deadly Shadows, which is all about the middle sister, and Seeds, which is all about the eldest sister. I believe I also wrote a Blitz with Letho and Amen entirely through the perspective of Esme Villeneuve, Vespasian's father, and Vespasian was nowhere to be seen, and I think we got full credit for it. Needless to say all of these characters are related, so it's not a huge stretch of the imagination. No one has even told me I'm allowed or not allowed to do any of that, so I guess you could say I've been gambling with it, but that gamble has payed off so far. I haven't taken it as far as writing a whole story through the eyes of someone that wouldn't ultimately tie the story to one of those characters. Did you do anything like that with your Saxon account? As I recall your pc had and npc family and you took steps to get them all registered. In regards to this particular idea, do you think it would be wise to simply call attention to it or do you think we should institutionalize it in some way? I have a bit of a selfish fear that if it's limited to one feature I won't be able to thrive the way I do outside of it lol

Maybe instead of EXP, we can set up some sort of a reputation system, and the more stuff you do, more your reputation grows or something. It wouldn't be necessary to hoard these, but it would still quantify the effort in a way.
I had an idea similar to that. Discussed it with Vigil last night. It was more of a peer review model that built up a currency through writing, reviewing, and being reviewed, but it was a hybrid system that appealed to the 'gamers' among us as well. I'd encourage everyone to check out writing.com . I think they've created an effective system in this vein.

Connor Lacuna

05-29-12, 03:59 PM

A separate board exempt from these rules may be hard to implement. Would it still have the same XP system as the rest of the forum? If not, why post there? If so, how would it be regulated?

The International

05-29-12, 04:18 PM

I don't think they mean a separate board or site altogether. Rather featured sections within the site.

Vigil

05-29-12, 04:49 PM

Crazy thing about that one is... I'm doing it already. Even though Vespasian Villeneuve is my pc, whom I may use in tournaments and battles and such, the account of The International is basically a placeholder for his entire family. If you look at my signature most of the links are to character registrations of his sisters and parents. My first completed quest featured very little of Vespasian and more so told the story of his parents' past. It scored very well. I took it a step further in a solo where Vespasian may have only been in the last quarter of the quest, but it was told mostly from the perspective of his parents and focused on their romance. Now to add to it, I have two ongoing quests in which he's nowhere to be found, Deadly Shadows, which is all about the middle sister, and Seeds, which is all about the eldest sister. I believe I also wrote a Blitz with Letho and Amen entirely through the perspective of Esme Villeneuve, Vespasian's father, and Vespasian was nowhere to be seen, and I think we got full credit for it. Needless to say all of these characters are related, so it's not a huge stretch of the imagination. No one has even told me I'm allowed or not allowed to do any of that, so I guess you could say I've been gambling with it, but that gamble has payed off so far. I haven't taken it as far as writing a whole story through the eyes of someone that wouldn't ultimately tie the story to one of those characters. Did you do anything like that with your Saxon account? As I recall your pc had and npc family and you took steps to get them all registered. In regards to this particular idea, do you think it would be wise to simply call attention to it or do you think we should institutionalize it in some way? I have a bit of a selfish fear that if it's limited to one feature I won't be able to thrive the way I do outside of it lol

I did do this. But it is unnecessarily complicated and choked the life out of what I tried to do. Truth is that there really are no limits in how you deliver or perceive your character, this idea though takes Althanas from being character centric to more writer centric. Instead of having to write things from one character's perspective or a preregistered family, I can write from several. I've even thought of registering an entire town under this context to get by, but then again, its needlessly complicated and there's already several people here with an entire army of characters, and I don't really want to be one of them.

But anyway, this idea, coupled with Letho's suggestion of not having to register and just writing would essentially allow you to write stories, post them and have them critiqued. This is not a wide swathing change and I'm not proposing to change the entire fabric of Althanas for it, but if we were to cordon a part of the site off for this or even do what Visla suggested and experiment with it with little to no cost to the site or the current member base, you could just sit back and watch the results.

This also isn't an attempt to 'legitimize' or instutionalize anything. Its just to make it easier on people like myself or you to write from different perspectives without being tied to one character or having to hop around accounts or even register multiple ones to make a series of main characters for a 'cast'.

I figure we might as well incorporate all three of those in a single feature really. Some of the things said in this thread are similar to what was brought up in the mods subforum in a thread I made a while ago, but some I overlooked. Like the third point Vigil made. I imagined that people would have the freedom to make whatever character they want in this potentially new section of the subforum, but after reading what Vigil wrote, I feel that it might not be necessary to do so. After all, when you read books and short stories, there are no character sheets to look over as you do so, so why not do so here as well? It would be up to the writer to properly introduce and develop the character. Which is something I always felt should be done on Althanas anyways, instead of relying on a character sheet to fill in the blanks. That would, however, almost completely erased the concept of EXP, but as someone once said: times they are a-changing.

Its an idea, but when you're first trying something like this you have to ask what you're looking for. Are we going to be experimenting with it and seeing how the member base receives it or implementing an idea with combined elements to add more liberty and give people space to write about what they want? I can see the temptation to combine all three ideas into one because it does make for an attractive package, but when I had proposed them my intent was to study how these aspects would be received by the member base, but that can get complicated. I suppose I was really fixated on the experimentation and observing behavior aspect of it. Psychology major, go figure. =P

But yeah, if the idea can be refined and given definite parameters rather then just lumping them all together and going with it, that'd be a great idea.

Rayse Valentino

05-29-12, 05:19 PM

A long time ago, Sighter and I talked about how Althanas had the potential to have an evolving piece of literature. I forget the word for it, dia-something, but basically you remove the boundaries of characters and just write a story with multiple writers. Both authors would be writing the same characters instead of just their own, and I know that many people include actions and dialogue from other characters, but ultimately this is done with permission or with the implication that the other party knows you're doing it. Often stories are character-driven instead of story-driven, and because of this you often only see them from one perspective per author. I wouldn't mind people making characters and writing with them, and other can people can write with them too, sorta like a fanfic but you're creating canon instead of just using established canon. So you have a novel that's written from many different sources.

Of course I rarely see this because people have characters that are often just avatars of themselves, personalizing them to the point where it's just a fantasy of self. Because of this, their involvement in threads that don't directly concern their characters is minimal. Playing NPCs, sharing characters, creating new characters together, I don't see much of this. What's considering bunnying in quests should just be a normal, expected thing. The only outlier is battles, where it's a competition. In fact, all of the site's rules revolve around the game aspect of battle.

Visla Eraclaire

05-29-12, 06:51 PM

I think that the idea of a free writing area that has a "currency" of "notariety" or "reputation" or something would be meaningful. Just to throw out random numbers, completing a thread and having it judged at least once would be 10 points. And judges would just be peers willing to read the thread and give brief meaningful feedback. They could assign let's say 1-3 points based on how good they felt it was. Each additional judge could give additional points and every judge would be earning himself 1 point for reading and reviewing the thread. You could game the system by making short threads or spamming into other people's threads and giving short comments, but given the system I don't think there would be much of that.

Letho mentioned doing away with character sheets for the free form forum. I think that's not 100% right. I'd do away with rigidly enforced ability lists that have been approved. A character summary and background is useful reference info. Even the IV had the Library thread that had basic character info on people. Instead, I think the best approach would be a subforum where instead of posting your profile and waiting for it to be approved, everyone creates one thread. The first couple of posts could be reserved by that person to put up a profile, links to active quests, so forth. Then that thread could be a character's "home" thread. I think it would be interesting if instead of always having to do a big quest or recruit or interact OOC, there would be a sort of informal place where someone could meet your character IC and have a kind of ongoing place to do so. Within a person's home thread, their word basically goes and they can do what they like. It would obviously fit some characters better than others, but the thread itself doesn't have to be a house, it could be any place your character would want to meet others. It would encourage interaction and visits and so forth could earn Rep the same as judgments. I think if people weren't tied to "if it isn't a full quest, no exp" they would be encouraged to have short but meaningful IC interactions with people. If it turns into something big, simply link to the quest and continue there.

Rayse's idea about shared characters, settings, npcs is fantastic. I've tried to make this work before but, for the reasons he described, it never worked much. I think in the more cooperative, free atmosphere of a subforum like that contemplated, it might get off the ground.

Letho

05-30-12, 02:28 PM

Peer review sounds nice in theory, but there's always fear that it turns into a popularity contest, especially in places such as Althanas. More so since there's a good chance that those who review it aren't really qualified to score a thread. Granted, this wouldn't matter overmuch due to the fact that you wouldn't really need these reputation points (or whatever the hell we wind up calling the currency) and you could argue who exactly is qualified to score a thread, but I'd still prefer if most of the score was determined by a judge. Because, as much as these reputation points won't really matter, they would still be a sort of a gauge. And besides, judges would review the threads as usual, and they are arguably the most qualified to determine the score. But I don't see why we can't really have both. Let's say a finished thread nets you a certain amounts of points determined by some simple formula depending on the score and on top of that you can get some extra depending on how your peers vote or something.

As for the character sheet, I'm neither for nor against it. But again, I don't see why we can't have both. Since the RoG in this case will not regulate the abilities, but rather just be used as sort of a reference guide to someone's characters, there is nothing to stop people from writing stories about characters that don't have an elaborate sheet. If the story is good, it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter whether you have a character sheet to fall back on or not. And since the reputation points pour into a single account regardless of which character(s) you write about, I don't really see the need to force people to put up character registrations unless they really want to.

Visla Eraclaire

05-30-12, 04:33 PM

Peer review sounds nice in theory, but there's always fear that it turns into a popularity contest, especially in places such as Althanas. More so since there's a good chance that those who review it aren't really qualified to score a thread.

Judging also sounds nice in theory, but we've seen it in practice. What qualifies anyone? Be honest, the qualifications to be a judge are basically a pulse and a willingness to put up with administrative bullshit. I'd rather get 3 different opinions than one supposedly "expert" one, especially considering what passes for expert around here.

Granted, this wouldn't matter overmuch due to the fact that you wouldn't really need these reputation points (or whatever the hell we wind up calling the currency) and you could argue who exactly is qualified to score a thread, but I'd still prefer if most of the score was determined by a judge.

Why? You just listed the same reasons I did that it doesn't matter. I have a year old unjudged thread and while some of that time period is because of my inactivity, a significant portion of was one of the reasons I became inactive. Threads don't get judged. Sometimes when they do get judged, they get judged lazily or poorly. I think it's time to stop pretending judges are some kind of super-members that know more than anyone else. Yeah, some judges are better than some members, but some members are also better than some judges, and some of both classes are twits. There's really no discernable difference.

I view the peer reviews as not "score" based. While judges may be most qualified to fuck about with a meaningless rubric that is designed for an antiquated system of "game" battles, I think there's no reason to give that sort of nonsense undue deference. If you insist that the judge score be more meaningful, maybe it's 2x the normal rewards. I still think rewarding people for having their threads read is the best incentive. The more people are seeking others to review their threads, the better they get, the more people are familiar with eachother's writing and so forth. That's way more important to me, and more importantly it creates more activity and community, than the judge caste system we have now.

I'd be interested in feedback on the "home thread" idea. I think it's interesting and useful regardless of whether there are "character sheets" or not.

Jasmine

05-30-12, 08:58 PM

Letho

05-31-12, 01:17 AM

Rayse Valentino

05-31-12, 01:52 AM

With judging you are guaranteed that someone will read over your thread carefully and try their best to be as helpful as they can to make you a better writer.

I think the fact that this doesn't actually happen a lot of times is why people seem to be yearning for alternatives.

Duffy

05-31-12, 01:56 AM

There is a peer review judgement option.

The workshop is still perfectly valid as a resource.

Visla Eraclaire

05-31-12, 05:21 AM

There's a vast difference between reading a thread just for fun and reading a thread while doing a judgment. At least it was for me when I judged a couple of times. You can argue and belittle the judges all you want, but they approach (or should approach) a story with a critical eye out in search for ways that someone can improve. Peer review for the most part won't do that, because the majority of people doesn't go out searching for mistakes while having a fun read. Yes, some will offer helpful advice, but for every one of those there will be three who will offer little or none. And that's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that nobody reviews it, or just one or two people who might or might not be helpful at all. And that really throws the wrench in the whole Althanas system that is supposed to help people improve. You end up having people write stuff nobody reads or cares enough about to review it.

With judging you are guaranteed that someone will read over your thread carefully and try their best to be as helpful as they can to make you a better writer. As I said, that isn't to say that we can allow peer inputs as well, but official judging should stay as a backbone of it all.

Rayse makes the real point that what you're saying isn't true, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take the counterfactual position that all judges are doing a what you describe.

I still firmly disagree with this. I think it is precisely because of the "critical eye" that judges take that they do NOT provide useful feedback. Judges often proof-read. I don't need that. I'm not sending these stories for publication. Having my commas corrected isn't helping me grow as a writer. Having a judge say "this one sentence confused me" isn't even useful really. Bigger picture feedback is what helps. People reading for fun can tell me whether they enjoyed reading it, whether they identified with the characters, which parts were exciting, which parts weren't, whether the descriptions captured their imagination or just fell flat.

The target audience isn't copy editors, it's people reading for fun. (That comma should be a semicolon! If you were judging this thread, you would comment on that and not my choice of language!) Their feedback is more useful than nitpicking, which is what most judgments are. Too many judges go into a thread to "find something wrong" and never get into the thread, never try to enjoy the story or identify with the characters. They're there to do a job. Their mindset is antithetical to useful feedback for me.

And Duffy, that's a great joke. You should start a comedy club. Peer review is available, but because of the lack of activity, the lack of incentive, and the general attitude like Letho's that judges are the master race and the rest of the world cannot possibly give opinions on writing... it's essentially useless. Your comment is basically indicative of the inertia that prevents the site from growing and changing. It evidences a total lack of consideration, a knee-jerk reaction to keep things as they are for no reason whatsoever.

I think that "home thread" idea is an awesome one and I would definitely use it. I just might set one up regardless for a trial run just to see how it might work out.

Thanks. I'm thinking about doing it as well, if slow days at work continue. Otherwise my lack of activity will just make it a poor example.

The International

05-31-12, 05:30 AM

Peer review for the most part won't do that, because the majority of people doesn't go out searching for mistakes while having a fun read. Yes, some will offer helpful advice, but for every one of those there will be three who will offer little or none.
Gotta disagree with that because I'm a member of a few sites where very constructive peer reviews are almost all you get. According to the founders it took a while to get things going in that direction using incentives, rules, and staff involvement, but once it got going it was a self sustaining engine. Not only were the good writers rewarded for their work, but good reviewers were rewarded for taking the time to read work thoroughly and making good notes and commentary, and they didn't have anything nearly as motivating as exp/gold like we do. All they really have... digital badges and recognition, but it's extremely effective.

Duffy

05-31-12, 06:06 AM

It evidences the recognition of the site having attempting exactly what is being discussed before. I encouraged the workshop, I agree with the workshop, and I like the idea of more group based support as a form of 'judgement'.

What I don't like, is the attitude displayed within this thread that, 'without venom' amusements aside, boils down to a critical deconstruction of the judge staff. No, I am not taking it personally, I've had enough derogatory bullshit from you and Saxon during the first three years to allow it to remotely become problematic now. But, what you are essentially doing as a group (those displaying this attitude), is basing opinion on what was, as opposed to what is. Though the judging group is now small, splintered, and inactive (due to your inactivity as a member base), I would consider everyone on board to be a strong, helpful, and attentive force. Certainly, it's the best group (myself excluded, I'm not opening myself to any more bullshit) that I've seen since I joined in 2009.

Yes, people streamed through threads in the name of functionaility, speed, and performance. That won't change with peer review. People will make up stuff or post, like we saw in the workshop format, to get the creedance and kudos for doing so.

I do support the changes discussed. I don't agree with them, but that is my choice. I can see the merit of a more freeform approach as an option, I really am, but if you want to implement these changes, and to make an effort with the intellectual and well thought out approach you're capable of, drop the condescenion, put the matter of the past firmly in the past, and make your ideas work.

Yes, I derailed the thread, dicked about, and didn't help in the middle - but frankly, when all we hear is you're incapable, incompetant, and unhelpful, off the back of one judgement you disagreed with, then our ability (certainly my ability) to care wanes considerably.

Change is good - so let's change!

Visla Eraclaire

05-31-12, 06:36 AM

What I don't like, is the attitude displayed within this thread that, 'without venom' amusements aside, boils down to a critical deconstruction of the judge staff. No, I am not taking it personally, I've had enough derogatory bullshit from you and Saxon during the first three years to allow it to remotely become problematic now. But, what you are essentially doing as a group (those displaying this attitude), is basing opinion on what was, as opposed to what is. Though the judging group is now small, splintered, and inactive (due to your inactivity as a member base), I would consider everyone on board to be a strong, helpful, and attentive force. Certainly, it's the best group (myself excluded, I'm not opening myself to any more bullshit) that I've seen since I joined in 2009.

How can it be the best when it has little or nothing to do. Unproven is what it is, untested. It's small and self-congratulatory. Anyone who's been around since the beginning can tell you that you're being short-sighted and that things are worse than they have been in a long time. I don't care if you're the most brilliant folks to have ever sat down at a keyboard. Elevating you above regular members doesn't help anyone. If judges are so great, they'll still be so great when they're just peer reviewers. Unless you think that they really aren't the angelic figures who would help without the incentive of being patted on the back and told they're a superior class... Or maybe it's that being a judge is what actually MAKES you better? What nonsense.

I think you are focused on a single judgment, but I don't even know what that judgment is, so whatever beef you and Saxon have, it isn't what's motivating my comments. As for the idea that I have to be kind about this, I can tell you quite simply it doesn't work. If people speaking softly and gingerly nudging the board forward was going to work, it would have worked by now. You have to advocate strongly and boldly to even get the slightest bit of change around here, and small change isn't going to work. Fake change dressed up in 3.0/3.1 nonsense isn't going to work. A change of culture and a change of approach is necessary. Althanas is by its nature closed off, unnaturally bifrucated between a secretive staff and a demeaned player base. It is unreceptive to change and hostile to criticism. That has to change. Althanas needs to become a place willing to try things out, many things, all at once, without reservation. Althanas needs to look like a place of opportunity worth investing in. Right now it's a sad husk that clings to the very ideas that made it so all while a judge congratulates his team (and himself though he tries to deny it) as being the best there is.

Pathetic.

Yes, people streamed through threads in the name of functionaility, speed, and performance. That won't change with peer review. People will make up stuff or post, like we saw in the workshop format, to get the creedance and kudos for doing so.

If people think that's bad, it won't happen for long. If you build a real community, social pressure keeps people in line. The view of forum leadership of the member base as impossible irascible animals is really distressing. If you empower people to work together, build a sense of identity among members instead of lording over them with absolute judgments and administrative cabals, you will have a member base that enforces its own standards.

I do support the changes discussed. I don't agree with them, but that is my choice.

You support them but don't agree with them? Is this supposed to be a "defend to the death your right to say it" type comment? Back-peddle all you like, your attitude is not supportive of change. Your words and your deeds are as incongruous as always.

Yes, I derailed the thread, dicked about, and didn't help in the middle - but frankly, when all we hear is you're incapable, incompetant, and unhelpful, off the back of one judgement you disagreed with, then our ability (certainly my ability) to care wanes considerably.

Hyperbole. Woe is you. Woe to the judges. Get a grip. Saxon and I have both been on your side of the fence and how quickly that is forgotten. I never took a self-pittying attitude that the board was against the judges. Instead, I advocated for change from within, recognized the limitations of the system, and acted consistently regardless of whether or not I had the oh-so-important italic name. The criticism has been around since the beginning. If you recognized problems and tried to address them instead of sweeping them under the rug, claiming everyone is awesome, and taking personal offense, you wouldn't be constantly on the defensive, you'd be working toward a solution.

Change is good - so let's change!

Let's. Frankly this could all be done today. It would take minutes. Instead, the administrative gears grind slowly, gummed up by complacency, self-congratulation, and fear of change.

You don't have to have a complete solution. It doesn't have to be a grand release of ALthanas 4.Whatever. Just do something. Start the ball rolling, see how it goes, see how people react. Get the word out to former members, let them try it out, give their two cents. Change as you go, fix rules that don't work, adapt on the fly.

One of the most common things every time I propose a change is that the administration gets worked up on minor details and so never moves forward. Work the details out as you go. It's a web forum not a rocket launch. You don't have to do all the calculations in advance and have everything determined with precision.

Hysteria

05-31-12, 07:11 AM

On Workshops, I liked them. I much preferred the range of judgements and comments over one from a judge. That said, if there is only one response it feels like a slight waste. Writers are rewarded with the breadth of responses, and 'peer' judges gain exp. Its basically the same system as mentioned before, with exp instead of points.

On exp, to be honest I've RPed in both free form and set systems, and I prefer the set systems. Having a character, investing time into developing him, growing his skills, personality and relationships seems like such a more rewarding experience than having complete freedom, and creating whatever I feel like. I'm not sure what everyone else's feelings on the matter is when it comes to this, it might worth while looking at why the current group is still active while throwing up ideas to improve the place based on personal experience and likes.

Mistletien

05-31-12, 08:40 AM

I'll state this right now, up front.
I'm not a perfect human being. I'm motivated by greed and self-interest, just like everyone else...I think.
That said, I'd participate more in Workshop/peer-review shit if I actually got equivalent reward in exchange for my efforts. EXP, Gold, whatever it has to be...just as long there's enough of it waiting for me, I'll do the work and I'll do it to the best of my ability.
We all clear on that? Good. Now back to writing my character.

Letho

05-31-12, 01:37 PM

Mutant_Lorenor

05-31-12, 02:20 PM

Hey gang, I put forward a proposal that may or may not help out the site. I was told to post it here so here is my basic proposal outline. You guys can discuss if it has potential or not. I've already talk to a couple of people about it and have had some feedback, but I would prefer that this be done as a community. Anyway here is my proposal outline as I originally sent it to Tony. (Max Dirks).

Most of the sites I've been on with higher activity payouts have one thing in common: How they handle the RP Bonus. Stat-Based sites are usually far superior to freeform based stats.

Case in point.

Valucre.

On Valucre, it's a site built from top to bottom mimicking the old Ayenee system of rp. However, there's one major problem. Anybody on that site can waltz in there and build a god-like character and nobody will attempt to stop them from the get go. The solution? A system like R.O.G. Granted, Althanas already has one. This is something that has been bugging me for some time now.

There is no incentive for people to post because of how Althanas handles the RP Bonus.

Solution.

Implement an OPTIONAL Stat-Based system. For example, we could have a rigorous stat system like another site I know does it, and they have SUPER activity that would make you cry. So we could do something simple like for people who want to opt in for the Stat system.

Stats-
Might.

Endurance.

Intelligence.

Agility.

Luck.

Charisma.

These should be pretty self explanatory.

Now what I propose is that with our granted Experience RP Bonuses, we purchase update packages of Distribution Points to our Stats and unique Spells and Skills. It's a basic layout that I been meaning to send your way for a while now, but this is the basic idea. Let me know what you think, and propose it to the moderator body giving credit to me of course. How we start handling the RP Bonus as a community could make or break the next few months of Althanas.

Now to explain:

My proposal would make full use of the experience we are already awarded.

Instead of everybody doing random updates at set intervals, you get a sheet, and you can buy new skills, or buy stat upgrades with the RP Bonuses we already earn. It's not that different from the system that is currently in play but it would be a more uniform, streamlined system since almost everybody uses some kind of stat system already. So basically we get our rp rewards, (Exp and Gold) and using our Exp we buy our upgrades, it is simple enough in principle and could generate more activity since it is providing an incentive for people to actually post and get exp. Anyway what do you guys think of this idea?

Vigil

05-31-12, 03:33 PM

I think the fact that this doesn't actually happen a lot of times is why people seem to be yearning for alternatives.

I agree and we should be looking for alternatives, but this sort of massive change is exactly what I was afraid of. Everybody on this site knows there are problems, and God knows there are those of us who have shouted and talked about it enough for the regular member base to be well aware of it. But I think what many are having trouble understanding is the rate of change some of us are asking for. There are people here who are firm traditionalists, who have a hard time grasping what it would be like to do something else, because this is the way we've always done it. But for the first time, I'm watching some of the most ardent hard-liners being open to trying something different. Its not a bad thing to want to stick to tradition, because big, grandoise moves are a fairly easy way to lose a website and its entire member base. Even the changes from 3.0 managed to fracture the member base for awhile.

We need to adapt, but it doesn't need to be overnight. Asking for something different is great, especially with how things are right now. But there's really no sense in trying to rush the staff. It hasn't worked, it doesn't work and will not work to yell at them to get the ball moving faster. Frankly if they're discussing it in the mod forums and looking at implementing some of these ideas, its a step in the right direction.

To be clear, many of the ideas here are good and at least the thread is taking a direction and people are feeling open to discuss change and work towards bettering the site, but I think things need to be implemented slowly and with more thought. This is counterintuitive to what others believe, but if any of these ideas have even been taken remotely seriously by most of the member base, then I think its time to stop playing the administration versus the member base card. It clearly hasn't worked, and all it does is removes us from the issues at hand and keeps us fighting over very petty things.

This is me of all people saying that, so I think that should carry some weight. Trust me. It hasn't worked and really has no basis in where the discussion was heading before peer review was even brought up.

Resist the impulse to keep lumping ideas together and trying to hamfist them through to fix the site. Instead, listen to the ideas, talk about them and think about how they can be implemented as different options. They can even be done in phases, but Jesus not all at once.

The Judge versus Peer Review thing can wait. Honestly, it doesn't need to change right now. The focus really should be on the implementation of a free-writing system that functions within the site. Allow members to use it and see how they react to it. Once its been reviewed and seen whether its a success, then there can be talk about implementing more changes that have been agreed upon.

Micro change can work.

Duffy

05-31-12, 03:35 PM

When I say *slow clap for Vigil* this time, I actually mean it.

Well said.

Visla Eraclaire

05-31-12, 05:06 PM

Fears that a Peer Review System Won't Work
My simple response is try it and see. Allowing it and encouraging people to try it doesn't cause a breakdown of the existing system. Remember, all of these experiments are being encouraged parallel to the "core" site as a way of testing the waters. There's really no cost to trying them and there's a lot to be lost by ignoring them

Timeline
I have to say that I disagree with Vigil's post to the extent he's suggesting none of this is urgent and that people should feel free to move at their usual glacial place. I don't think we need to rush to a final decision or rush to change the main site (if it changes at all), but there's no reason not to open up an area to start tinkering with these ideas now. The only thing that's going to let us know how and whether they're working is actual data and we can't get that until we start trying things. As I said, there's really nothing to lose and everything to gain. If something doesn't work, it will die a natural death. On the other hand, if some of these things do work it could prevent Althanas from dying its natural death.

Lorenor's Proposal
I'd rather drink poison than write under such a system. It's the exact opposite of what I'm proposing. That said, Althanas has room for more than one idea and more than one system. Instead of trying to get a consensus on one best way and cramming everyone into a one size fits all solution, let him and anyone interested in his idea try theirs out as well.

Implementation
I think we should get going ASAP on this stuff and by "we" I mean people interested in their respective ideas. There's really very little we need from the administration other than for them not to actually obstruct us and the minor assistance of providing a space for this stuff to happen. In exchange for not getting in the way of experiments, those conducting them would not interfere with the "core" board. After some time and some threads have worked their way out, we can see what worked and what didn't and if the "core" site would benefit from any changes.

It's going to take a long time to figure out what is and isn't working and that cannot happen any more quickly. Getting started can and should occur in the very near term. Once the flag drops, I think people should adopt a "just do it" attitude and not wait for administrative support or action. Just run with it, let people vote with their posts and see what ideas are popular and people want to try.

It's simple. It can be done today. It requires virtually no commitment from any staff. All it requires is a willingness to abandon fear of change and let people gravitate to ideas they think will work. Althanas is not threatened by this.

Rayse Valentino

05-31-12, 05:32 PM

Letho, I used the workshop once. I got some helpful comments from people, most of them very positive and thinking it was great, then ultimately a judge came in, didn't read the thread, dropped off some ridiculously low numbers and left. I will never, ever use the workshop again.

Anyway, anytime I want to do something, I don't ask permission from the staff. I've always said just go ahead and do it and worry about the ramifications later. Just put a disclaimer saying what you're doing. I wanted to introduce a way of alternative settings using the planescape from DnD, so I did. I don't care if nobody else uses it and creates all these wacky settings, societies, and rules of physics, because I'm doing it and if people see it and think it's interesting that's good enough for me. Of course, without public support it will probably go nowhere beyond me, but that's fine. People will always take what they want when they want, and very few types of incentives will motivate them otherwise.

So if you want to do this, just do it. Relying on the staff for implementation will get you nowhere, because fundamentally the system of secret mod forums and privileged staff members who are the only ones allowed to do implementation is the problem, not any of the actual ideas that have come up over the years. The unneeded bureaucracy on a forum that has less than 100 active members is what causes stagnation. I've been saying for years the very idea of a secret mod forum is pointless. Anyhow, my own reservations about the free-form writing stuff is that I doubt many people will use it.

TL;DR just do it.

Amen

06-01-12, 01:38 PM

TL;DR just do it.

The problem with Althanas (and lots of other play-by-post games or writing workshops) is inactivity. I think everybody's got some awesome idea about how Althanas could be better, and they think we should definitely do that, and if we don't do that then the site is going to die for sure. Personally, I think the most successful writers on the site are Caden Law and a few of the IK guys, because they don't seem to give a fuck, they just write. The Savas Tigh character has been doing ridiculously awesome shit on a level with the Caden Law character in recent threads despite being like ten levels behind, and that hasn't hurt the judgement scores, and if it did who cares because it was fun to read. Who cares if a judge gives you a 40 instead of a 70, or somebody tells you "well that sucked because Alerar doesn't have mechs and cannibal space sluts and you use the word 'cockles' too much."

I'm 100% all for trying new things and implementing change, for sure. I love change. The thing is, I don't see a point in talking about it, especially here because you guys can argue in circles for ten years and nothing will change. How about we agree to just write shit and do things, new or not, and if an administrator says "stop it" we'll talk about why he's wrong in that specific case. I'd like to think if the community decides something is fun and it works, we'll build a system around that, rather than try to come up with an abstract idea and then fit our writing and/or game-playing into that rulebook.

If you want somebody to read your writing and give you specific feedback that judges aren't giving, ask them to. If you just want to run hog wild and write stories with other people with messy grammar and absolutely no sense whatsoever, ignore what the judges say. I was a judge. I didn't do it because I wanted to be a mod or have godlike power or get into the politics here or even to tell people how much they sucked, I did it because I saw the site declining and I thought I could help. The core idea here is that we're writers here to write, and the reason Althanas is dying is because nobody is writing and we're asking why instead of, you know, writing. Got a judging backlog? Who cares, just keep writing, act as if you got the spoils.

So yeah. Whatever you want to see happen, or whatever you think is going to be the most fun or bring the most life and success to Althanas, do that. Just do it.

We can sort the rest of the shit out after, but yeah. Arguing hasn't fixed anything yet, I don't see how more is going to this time.

EDIT: So like...everything everybody else said over the last five posts.

The International

06-01-12, 02:14 PM

Amen, Amen.

And on that note, Jasmine and Visla, I'd love to make a homepage, but I'm not entirely sure what's supposed to be on it and what format it should take. Whadyasay one of you posts an example here?

EDIT: Home Thread.... I'm a retard.

El Diablo Perro

06-01-12, 03:45 PM

I'm with Amen,

and I've been doing that this whole time. :)

Just write, have fun, and who gives a damn. Do it for you, and if other's like it, more power to you.

Vigil

06-01-12, 05:33 PM

I took what you guys said and thought about it, and decided to take you up on your proposal to just go out and do it by starting the A Leap Forward organization found here (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?24458-A-Leap-Forward-An-Althanas-Free-Writing-Initiative&p=198240#post198240). This is a free, community-based effort dedicated to free-writing and is also attempting to provide member feedback. This will provide organization to the ideas proposed and the desire of many people to free write by giving members a group to join and to best use the resources that we already have available.

Of course, there really doesn't have to be a group for this. You guys can write about anything and everything on your own, but I figured it'd be helpful to provide a member-based group for you guys to work in and a template to follow if you're interested. If you are, please join. But, I'm more interested in hearing your guys thoughts about this. I tried to keep this group seperate and as member-affiliated as possible to avoid conflicts of interest with the staff or the website, but the guidelines are fluid and up for change based on member input.

I think it'll help those of us write about whatever we want and allow others in the community to comment on each others work and provide feedback as needed. It is NOT a recreation of the writer's workshop that was attempted on this site, so I'm not comparing it with it, but I think if enough interest and activity is generated, ALF can help the site.

What do you guys think?

Hysteria

06-02-12, 08:57 AM

The main reason why I prefer the official review to remain is because of how the Workshop option worked out on Althanas. There was some activity to it, but for every one thread that was reviewed by Workshop, there were ten where people opted for regular judgment, and that was at the peak of its activity. And in all honesty, I don't really remember when was the last one that got a Workshop judgment (and, yes, I'm too lazy to look it up). And if the reason for this is the lack of rewards for participation of peers, then how exactly can we expect this to be a viable way to do reviews in a system that for the most part has nothing to offer as a reward expect maybe points that don't even hold the small measure of significance that EXP has on Althanas today?

Maybe there are places where it works, but the fate of the Workshop makes me think that Althanas can't just go with this cold turkey. If we make it an option the way the Workshop is an option on Althanas right now, and it prevails as the dominant option, then I see no reason why not switch to it completely. But at the beginning, people should have a choice. Because, you know, judges are gods. WORSHIP THEM!!

The last thread finished on the 29th of August last year. A few things stick out about it, first is that it took a month and a half for the exp to be awarded to the contributors after the thread was judged, second only one of the two people who commented got exp, and that person didn't get the gold bonus for 'most helpful and meaningful reviewer'.

So yeah... wtf?

A last note on workshops before I drop this, why does a judge need to come in at the end and do a judgement? Why not just average out the responses as long as they aren't wildly different?