(Political) ObamCare And more

[4saykin]

Ok, so these are just my thoughts. A few things that worry me. I am a soon to be a father. I have a little girl due at the end of October and I cant wait. I am truely excited about it. But this new ObamaCare Plan does concern me. Here is why, when congress and the senate was asked if they would switch from there current health care plans to ObmamCare, they diverted the conversation and still to this day have not answered. Why? What is it about ObamaCare that makes them want to stay with the plans that they have. Is it flawed, is the coverage only meager. What? Perhaps if it was researched a bit more. I wouldn't know where to begin with kind of research. But see, that in turns arises more questions. Questions such as medical benefits through jobs. The way day care centers are covered. Is it acceptable for us to give in to this? Must we conform?

As it stands. If you work for a good enough company. You get pretty decent health that actually covers your whole family. There is dental insurance, as well as vision. But if a company is forced to switch over to ObamaCare. Then what? Will your family be covered? What about your children? What do they have to look forward too? What kind of day care will they recieve? what kind of of treatment will they get if they go to the doctors? I know that I am prolly the last person to be ranting about all of this seeing as I am anti-gov. But as a parent, I do have the right to rant.

As americans, we have an obligation to the country. As parents, we have a bigger obligation to our children. As family men, we have a larger obligation to our families. I dont sit here and pretend to know what the govs intentions are. But I would really like to know more about what we are getting into. Our president, and congress in all reality has lied to us from the start. They said they would improve our health care and medical sectors. But I dont see that one happening. They said they would improve our education system. But that still has not happened. In fact, they said that there would be zero tolerance for bullying in our schools. But Everytime I turn around. A child is being bullied. Just 6 months ago a yound girl at Sierra County Elementary had her finger broken by another student and my 10 year old cousin intervened and when this student started to bully her. She told him to shut the hell up. My cousin was sent to the principles office, the little girl that got hr finger broke was sent home. But the little boy that was bullying these 2 was allowed to stay in school and in class and was never punished for his transgressions. Why is that?

At the beginning or the constitution it says "We the people." but the gov acts like it says "I the president"

What can we as true American citizins do about all this? Any thoughts?

[SirArtemis]

You do realize that what you call "obamacare" isn't actually an insurance plan, right? And you also realize that the majority of people in this country do NOT have very good quality healthcare because they can't afford it? And you also realize that most European countries, as well as others elsewhere such as Australia and Canada have public healthcare? Not only that, but some of them have healthier economies than our own?

Furthermore, when you cite the constitution, read the rest of that one sentence and you notice "promote the general welfare." The government is designed to improve the well-being of its people, and to protect them for all threats, foreign and domestic. I think you're forgetting the domestic threat of ignorance, of hatred, of bigotry, of racism, of class warfare, of corporate manipulation, greed, even our own food. You say "We the people," yet who exactly do you think is electing public officials? You think the president is making all of these decisions? Be a bit more realistic. This isn't a tyranny, even if you want to convince yourself that it is. This is a republic.

You say they wouldn't improve our health care? I can cite the simple fact that pre-existing conditions are now covered by law. Enough said.

You rant, but do you understand how a private insurance company functions? Let me walk you through this. A private corporation, regardless of the industry within which it functions, is concerned by the primary drive of profitability. That means that if you, as a person, are liable to suffer from any health conditions, for them to insure you means you have to pay them more. If you have a history of heart condition in your family, they will charge you more. If you are overweight, they will charge you more. If you had cancer once before in your life, they will charge you more. Not only that, but before this "obamacare" that you dread, if you came to a new insurance provider and wanted them to cover your diabetes medication, they could refuse you, plain and simple.

Most European nations realized something, and it's the very thing that you are arguing against out of ignorance. You ready? "The health and well being of our people should not be driven by profit, but rather be driven by what is morally right." Have you ever had to deal with a private insurance company and how they handle your "coverage?" They will do everything in their power to minimize how much money they have to give you, by law, manipulating you and contracts and have the resources to lock you into a long and drawn out legal battle if need be to drain you of resources so you can't fight back. Not only that, but they will continue to spike costs and overcharge you for everything.

You want someone to blame? I wouldn't say it's the President, nor the corrupt-as-shit political figures. You want to blame the puppets? Who do you think is pulling the strings? Go look at the largest and most powerful financial companies in the United States. Banks. Insurance companies. Oil companies. Pharmaceutical companies. Look at how much they control your environment, and then decide who to blame.

I'm sorry man but you use this forum, which is designed as a forum for fantasy-fiction writing and as a writing workshop, and every time you come here you make a personal post and never have once written a single story. And not only that, but you're speaking out of plain ignorance. You're anti-government? Cool. Go live on a secluded island where no one can do anything for you. There will be no police or fire departments to protect you. There will be no infrastructure, such as transit, electricity, roads, clean water. There will be no mail system. There will be no unemployment benefits, food stamps, social security, or government-subsidized healthcare. Go live in a place that is driven strictly by profit and you will see how quickly your life turns to shit. The government isn't SUPPOSED to function for profit. It is supposed to function for growth and for what is morally correct.

/endrant

[Silence Sei]

Artie, just a quick aside pal, there is nothing wrong with 4saykin coming here to rant. Althanas is an outlet of all sorts, and if he still doesn't feel up to roleplaying, that's his perogative. There's really no reason to bring his lack of IC activity into this debate, as even OOC threads do bring in activity.

Anyways, about the national healthcare stuff. Yes, some countries have better economies and yes those countries also support a nationalized health care system, but those two may not be directly linked to one another. To take it to an extreme, that'd be like saying if the former soviet union had a lower unemployment rate than the US in the same time period, that communism was the reason for it. I just didn't see how bringing down 'well to do' economies and nationalized health care really had anything to do with one another.

As far as -our- plan goes, I'm just going to have to wait and see. If it means I can go to the Doctor for less than if I were to go uninsured, I might be able to see the benefits.

[4saykin]

Actually artie. I use to role play on here. But not any more. And if you will kindly go back through the thread and read. You will clearly see that I am not blaming any one. And please dont sit there and call me ignorant for asking questions about something that scares alot of ppl and parenst. Just his morning in a post on fb in a group. A yound lady sat there and said that

"This new obamacare scares me bad! Since I rn from a local hospital told me some of the parts of it.( since I don't have TV) example: I have sole custody of my 3 yr old daughter, if she had to go to the hospital while on a visit with her dad by law both the father and doctors don't have to tell me why she was seen. Even with legal documents showing I am sole custodial parent."

Here is another comment on the same post but by a different person

"I agree! It worries me too. I have a little 14 1/2 month old with a major heart defect.
I do not trust the new "Care" I could rant on but some Obama lovers would get mad.
But to round it up, I think America is not the same, I do believe it is turning (already is) into a socialist country. Which is scary and sad.
"I the President!" vs "We the People!"
I am very passionate on this subject (politics) so I will stop now before I say something that may upset people."

Now. I do recall back in the beginning of Obama's term there were grade schools up north singing praises to Obama like he was jesus christ........ Sure as hell sounds like a tyranny to me considering that through out history the only other man that has ever had children singing praises to him was Hitler. Now also let me shed a bit of light on the European economy. Seeing how my grand father is from Germany and was a hitler youth I kinda prolly know a bit more then you do. Gas over there cost 4x more then here. The cheapest fuel in that country in diesel. Diesel is about $10.40-$10.50 a gallon. thats cheap to them. Did you know that germans never go a single meal with out a glass of wine, and I aint talkin about that cheap $2.00 you get at walmart or the local liquer store. I am talking about wine that cost $200-$300 a bottle.

Honestly. Am I wrong to be concerned about something that actually threatens the welfare of the people. I dont thank I am. And I dont think that any one else would disagree with me. As an American, and a parent. I do have the right to worry and to voice my opinions. But here is one for you. The first amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances. Now please dont sit there and tell me that none of these things have been done. Because they all have. I remember growing up. Every morning I would go to school. Grab a breakfast pizza in the cafeteria then head of to class. I would take me seat and make sure I had my pincil and note book ready and then wait. The bell would ring and the door would close. Then over the intercom came the principle. Will every one please rise for the pledge and a moment of silense. I would stand up place my right hand over my heart and say "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Then I would bow my head for a moment and say a prayer.

Now days, a student cant say that in a class room because of the words "Under God" and god forbid that a student say a preyer before class other wise it is a week of detention. I should know. I got suspended for having a bible...... a bible out during lunch which need I remind you is a non instructional time of the school day. Well now there goes our first amendment. There trying to tell us that we cant carry a gun. Accourding to our 3rd. We have the right to do so.

So before you patronize my posts and what they are about. Look closer. You may actually learn a thing or too.

Oh yeah, and FYI. Back at the beginning of 2010. Obama was giving praise to Ala which need I remind you is the muslims god. Which need I remind you is the same god that the highjackers preyed to just before flying thos planes into our buildings and killing 1000's of ppl on September 11, 2001. Or have you forgotten. That was the largest attack on our country sense Pearl Harbor. Obama allowed the building of muslim mosk less then 10 blocks away from ground zero........ That is highly disrespectful to theis country and more so to the family of the men, women, and children that died that day.

Learn your history son...........

[Duffy]

There are several things in this thread that both defy belief, and defy reason.

Please, for the sake of not treading into politics & religion (the bane of many an internet forum), try to keep this to fact and logic, otherwise you're all risking causing more than just the usual Althanas offence.

(Waves NHS flag).

[orphans]

I'm pretty sure the Muslim God is the same one as the Christian God. Also, pretty sure it's the same as the Judaic God, not 100% sure. Pretty sure the only real difference is that the three aforementioned organized religions have is what they think about the flavor of icing on their cake.... or something close to that.

At the same time, I've actually lost some friends and family back then during 9/11, but I'm still friends with a lot of Muslims both at work and in my community. I also enjoy learning about their beliefs and things. Does this mean I'm also betraying my friends and family who died in the attack? D:

As for singing praises... If Jesus Christ had praises sung about him, and Hilter does as well, and now Obama, does this mean they have something in common? Doesn't Beowulf also have songs sung about him? How about Odin and the Norse Gods? Pretty sure they have songs sung about them... does this mean they're all like Hitler and Jesus Christ as well?

Also, DUFFY!!! :D TAKE ME TO THE ZOOOOOOOO

[4saykin]

Orphan, I have friends that are mslim. And I am not against a muslim mosk in this country. I against a muslim mosk so close to ground zero/ You are not betraying anything. And no, Ala and god are not the same. And odin, Beowulf, the norse gods...... Key word.... gods. Hitler was a tyrant and as far as I am concerned, Obama is too. No man alive or dead should have songs sung to them in praise. Gods are different. They are the beliefs structures of ones life. Obama and Hitler are not belief structures nor are the gods. So why sing praises to them. Name one good thing that either of them have done in there worthless lives

[Duffy]

Ermm...

Obamacare.

There. That's one thing.

[orphans]

Azza has grown confused at what is happening in this thread, and is now watching this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=K9ALaS8lHGM&NR=1). You should too. It will confuse you as much as this thread. Azza is hungry now and will go eat and do chores, like a happy person :D

[hoytti]

Neutral as I am about this national health care, I can't ignore the facts that have been stated above. I shall list them as I see them in the order that I see them
Facts
1. Congress and Senate REFUSES to comment about whether or not they will change to Obamacare
2. Current companies can get excellent health care already
3. Though promised, the School Systems have not gotten better. (I just graduated so I know this is a fact)
4. Bulling is still rampant
5. Obamacare is not an Insurance Plan.
6. Everything is based around money. ( Probably more of an opinion than fact)
7. Most European Nations have NHC
8. Artemis doesn’t know that this specific form area is for Non-Althanas discussions (Sorry Artemis but we all know its true)
9. Doctors don’t have to tell if why your child is in a hospital even if you are the parent and/or legal guardian with Obamacare.
10. Obama got Praises from schoolchildren.
11. We get cheap Gas.
12. The Constitution states “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
13. The Pledge to the American Flag is prohibited in some schools, as is the Bible do to the word God.
14. Obama is Muslim.
15. 9 – 11 was executed by Muslims
16. Muslim Mosk Built 10 blocks from Ground zero
17. Duffy Comes in High and Mighty but then shows his colors
18. Muslim, Jewish, and Christian Gods are all the same person

Now that the list is done let’s move on to my comments in order
1. Congress and senate refusing to talk is typical. They are getting their strings pulled by lobbyists and muckrakers.
2. Not every company can get good health care
3. Not about health care so not important for this form
4. Not about health care so not important for this form
5. Really? I thought it was.
6. Though not proven it is more than likely true. After all it is the rich who are pulling the strings with the help of the Lobbyists
7. And they live longer than us, go figure. Ex. Monaco: 2 km2, No crops, and lives to be 89-90 years old. America: 9,826,275 km2, many crops, lives only to be 78-79 years old. Note these are averages
8. Artemis we are in the Tavern, Anything Goes
9. That’s just wrong, Parents and/or Legal Guardians should be told everything about what happened to the one they are supposed to be in charge of
10. Seriously, what was he being praised for? Give us all the facts please
11. So what
12. The Constitution never states privately owned or privately run buildings can’t bard certain words from entering their buildings
13. Look at 12
14. He has a right to be.
15. Now I see the slap in the face
16. Now that is just going too far
17. Duffy if you are going to try to settle a matter then stay neutral
18. True, they all are the god of Abraham but the difference is that Jews and Christians believe that the original chosen people were the Jews while the Muslims believe that all people are chosen. Christians also believe that anyone who believes in Jesus Christ can go to heaven.

So look at the list of facts above then if you want look at my comments, decide for yourself whether you are for or against Obamacare then tell us below.

[4saykin]

Hoytii pretty much just narrowed it down. All these are interesting facts and pretty much all his opinions are on point. Talk about hitting the hammer on the head lmao.

I am personally am against ObamaCare. Who esle

[Silence Sei]

I just want to point out a few quick things.

This article here (http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/), as well as this one (http://www.afneurope.net/GasPrices/tabid/87/Default.aspx) state clearly that gas in Germany is not anywhere near 10 dollars a gallon, even for diesel. In fact, gas prices seem to be cheaper there than in some of the states of the US.

As hoytti pointed out, Allah and the Christian God, as well as the Jewish God, are all one in the same. However, just like there are different sects of Christianity, so are there different beliefs on what happened with old Abraham and his kids according to differing religions.

You should know that just because the Supreme Court OKed National Health Care, that doesn't mean it's going through as in. In fact, with Republicans currently holding the majority of seats, I would say that the bill is going to be tweeked several times over before it actually rears its head.

9-11 was not done by 'Muslims' as if the entire religion is against the US. Were the terrorists of Muslim belief? Yes, but they have clearly been pointed out again and again to be extremists, just as Christians have the Westboro Baptist Church (Who for those that don't know, picket the funerals of dead soldiers, and make shocking statements all the time about God hating all kinds of people), so do Muslims have extremists for their religion. Do you really think any of our soldiers would be coming back from Afganistan if all Muslims had the same 'death to America' mind set as the 9-11 terrorists?

While still on the topic, the Mosque wishing to be built close to Ground Zero is within their rights. After all, it's not like they're going to build a terrorists training camp in there, and even if they tried, there would be enough paranoid people probably spying on them to call them out at the first sign of something suspcious.

The 2nd amendment is the right to bear arms, not the 3rd.

Beowulf was not, nor has ever been, a Norse God. He was simply a hero, much like Odyssius, or Perseus. They were just normal guys with incredible talents (though to be fair, Perseus was Zeus' kid).

Pretty sure nobody is going to allow a rule that the legal guardian can't get medical records or be told what was going on will pass. That's just paranoia.

Anywho, back to the subject at hand. As I said, Obamacare will make or break once it actually begins. If the majority of America don't like it, then a lot of them will simply stop paying for it, and just pay the fine every tax season. It's really not as a big a deal as everyone is making it out to be : P

[Duffy]

How is paying regular payments for health insurance worse than not being able to get medical treatment because a regular trip to the doctor or prescription, life-saving drugs costs thousands of dollars remotely a bad thing?

I mean, sure, I'm sat on the other side of the ocean where prescriptions are free and everyone contributes to free emergency and essential healthcare, but, I see all this on the news and want to bitch slap Conservative Americans into kingdom come.

Sod being high and mighty, this is about saving lives.

If you're against that, I don't care what religion or political background you take to, you're an idiot.

You have no idea how hard the government fought for the NHS here, and when the health and welfare acts were enacted in the 1940's in the UK, the life expectancy, condition of UK hospitals and healthcare in general sky rocketed. Sure, waiting lists can be atrocious, and staff are underpaid, but to be fair, considering it's more or less entirely free to be able to life healthily, it's worth it.

*goes back to free drugs.

[Enigmatic Immortal]

Amerika! Fuck ya!

And freedim costs a buck o'five.

That's more than the two cents i should have given. Spend it well sons.

[Amber Eyes]

On the religion issue: There are lots of references in both the Christian and Muslim faith that lead to the conclusion that they do in fact serve the same God. Also, the Jewish faith is completely interwoven with Christianity and there is no doubt that they believe in the same God. The origins of Judaism and the Islamic faith are also interwoven.

As far as 'obamacare' goes. I'm fairly certain the current system has some drastic flaws, but I have enough faith in our country to believe that we will work them out. Duffy, one of the biggest issues with the current system is that even if you do not have insurance you are able to be seen at an emergency room, they cannot turn you away. Because of this, lots of people go to the ER for simple colds and such, running up huge bills that they will never pay. The hospitals then have to eat that cost, which drives up the cost of healthcare for everyone else. Its never an issue of not being able to see a doctor, just an issue of dealing with the bills later.

4saykin, I'm somewhat confused. I was under the impression that your girlfriend was jobless. If so, is she on medicade for the pregnancy? If so, she is basically using the new system already. Also, do you plan to have your child on medicade? Both of my children have at one time or another used the current public healthcare system. Again, I'm not saying this system is perfect, it has quite a few kinks to work out, but the fact that we're dealing with this problem at all is a huge step in the right direction. You say you are concerned as a parent, but how will you feel if in 25 years your child can't go see a doctor without breaking their bank account for even the simplest of issues? There is no guarantee that your child will have a job that provides insurance. Is it better that we keep trying to patch up our current, failing system, or should we at least give something else that has been proven time and time again in other nations a shot? I'm not a big government fan on most issues, but when we have millions of people rushing to the ER because they can't afford a doctor's appointment and insane hospital costs which only raise the premiums of those who do have insurance in an effort to cover the cost of the nation’s uninsured, something HAS to be done.

The free market is an amazing thing but not when lives are hanging in the balance. The same medications other nations get cost way more here, simply because they can. Demand will always be there, and that allows the drug companies to set the price, that doesn’t end well for anyone. I believe there is a long way to go, but I for one applaud of government for making the first of many tough decisions about our broken system.

[Duffy]

I understand that, Amber, my point was more, if everyone wants access to healthcare, everyone should contribute towards it.

In the, everyone who works, does, though the amount is minuscule (something akin to 2-4% of your income, regardless of the income). With income tax preferring local health services, it means the NHS can provide the services, even with epic cuts, to everyone who needs it.

I gather people on the lower and higher ends will benefit or lose out accordingly, but that's an issue with capitalism, not Obama-care.

Like you say, it's a system with kinks that need to be worked out, but it's a system that can only move America as a whole into a more stable economy and society for everyone.

[Amber Eyes]

Gotcha...I guess I misread something. Sorry! :)

[Amen]

I like how everybody here putting up an "against" argument can't spell.

Just sayin'.

[Hysteria]

Yeah, free health care is pretty good. Here if you don't have private insurance and earn over a certain amount of money you paid a levy, otherwise just free health care. Drugs cost money, but certain drugs are subsidised if deemed necessary (antibiotics, certain cancer drugs, painkillers, etc).

I was under the impression the debate was stunted somewhat because the Health Care Plan required an increase to tax, which was an election promise that Obama didn't want to break. To try and hide that it was a tax they called it a mandate, which then allowed the opposition to challenge it on constitutional grounds.

I read an interesting article on the affect of the current medical system in America has on the prices for medical costs. In most countries the health providers and insurance companies debate on the cost of medical services. The insurance companies of course try and get the lowest cost to save money, while the medical providers need to cover costs and set a percentage of profit. In cases where the two can't agree the government often steps in an arbitrates. This is slightly different in each country, but you get the gist. In American however, you have a fragmented group setting the prices. The big companies with more power can set costs, but those smaller groups, or individuals cannot, which has led to a large difference in price. As an individual trying to pay your own costs you spend more than the insurance company does. As a result you have on average the highest medical costs of any developed country.

Unfortunately I couldn't find the original article, but I did find this from Mckinsey (one of the largest Management Consulting firms in the world).

http://www.mckinsey.com/Insights/MGI/Research/Americas/Accounting_for_the_Cost_of_Health_Care_in_the_Unit ed_States

EDIT:
It also might be worth taking a look at one of the visualisations produced on Informationisbeautiful.net on Rhetological Fallacies.

http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/rhetological-fallacies/

For example, raising the point that Obama is Muslim (which I don't think he actually is?) would come under Ad Hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem).

[Amber Eyes]

Obama's biological father (who did not raise him) was a non-practicing Muslim. His Stepfather as a child was also Muslim but never forced Obama to practice religion. He considers himself a Christian, and has attended Christian churches as an adult.

Just as an example of our current healthcare system. I was in a car accident two years ago. I was not at fault and hit head on by someone going the wrong way on an interstate. I was going 65 and she was going about 30 and by the time I was able to hit the brakes we had already hit. I broke my right leg (which was slammed on the brake) and my right ankle was completely crushed. I had no health insurance, but I was taken to the hospital because like I said earlier, they have to treat you and I was barely awake. They repaired my broken leg, but all they could do at that point with my ankle was hospitalize me and make sure I didn't get closed-compartment syndrome, which I know nothing about but apparently would have been very bad. I was released three days later and told to set up an appointment with a surgeon to get my ankle rebuilt.

I went to the doctor, under the impression that the other person's car insurance would be covering any medical bills since the wreck wasn't my fault. They set up my surgery and then I got a call that the other driver did not have insurance. I was no longer in danger of dying, so even though I couldn't walk they no longer HAD to help me. I waited three months before I was finally able to get my uninsured/underinsured motorist insurance to agree to cover part of the bill. I had to save up several thousand dollars on my own as down payment and agree to an atrocious interest rate to cover what was left (my insurance was only good for 50,000 dollars since the wreck wasn’t my fault).

Since it had taken three months my ankle had to be re-broken, making the recovery process that much more difficult (not to mention keeping me in a wheelchair for several months longer than I should have been) Eventually the hospital contacted some private donors who covered the nearly 300,000 dollars I still owed the hospital. Honestly if not for them Ed and I would have been paying on that for quite possibly the rest of our lives. I grew up with great insurance, my mom is a teacher. When I got married we priced getting family coverage but Eddie has a liver condition and it would have been impossible for us to make the payments. So, we found an option for the kids and hoped for the best. There are an obscene amount of people out there just like us, who just have to cross their fingers and hope nothing happens. Its really easy as a twenty-something who has never been sick to act like the right to reasonable medical care isn't that huge of an issue, but once you've actually seen the system fail you kinda change your mind.

[hoytti]

Okay, just because someone says their a Christian and they go to a Christian church does NOT mean their christian. He could have easily been wanting to be the president which, at this moment, being a Christian is an unofficial law, made by the people of the United States. So, in order for him to become president he could have called himself "Christian" and gone to a Christian church just to get the job.

[Silence Sei]

Mitt Romney says hi.

In other words, if Obama is saying he's Christian and is going to Christian churches (which, btw, he would have stopped doing after becoming President, which he has not, as a google search will show you), alongside with the fact that he's been going to Christian Churches for 20 years (or did you forget Fox News' blowout over his preacher making shocking comments about two years ago), I would be more inclined to believe that Barack Obama is indeed a Christian. Yes, you could easily make that stuff up, but when you have evidence that proves otherwise, well, it's silly to start saying that he made it up, especially when you figure that both Fox News and CNN would be 100% over that in about three seconds flat. Fox News, granted, did accuse him of being a Muslim, but if I remember correctly, CNN never did, and they're pretty down-the-middle as far as politics go. If Obama was making falsified claims, somebody would have exposed them by now.

Or did we forget a certain scandal in the 90s involving one William Clinton?

[hoytti]

Mitt Romney says hi.

In other words, if Obama is saying he's Christian and is going to Christian churches (which, btw, he would have stopped doing after becoming President, which he has not, as a google search will show you), alongside with the fact that he's been going to Christian Churches for 20 years (or did you forget Fox News' blowout over his preacher making shocking comments about two years ago), I would be more inclined to believe that Barack Obama is indeed a Christian. Yes, you could easily make that stuff up, but when you have evidence that proves otherwise, well, it's silly to start saying that he made it up, especially when you figure that both Fox News and CNN would be 100% over that in about three seconds flat. Fox News, granted, did accuse him of being a Muslim, but if I remember correctly, CNN never did, and they're pretty down-the-middle as far as politics go. If Obama was making falsified claims, somebody would have exposed them by now.

Or did we forget a certain scandal in the 90s involving one William Clinton?

I wasn't even ten in the 1990's. I do see your point but Obama is still running for another presidency so he could easily still be faking it. You are right about the fact that the news would be ll over it if he ever was discovered to be lying. Also, I never said that he WAS faking it but instead said he COULD be faking it. Also, some people truly believe they are Christian and follow all the rules of Christianity but on the inside they are not christian. That was the point I was getting at. if you thought I was saying he wasn't christian then I'm sorry about that for earlier I wasn't. Now I shall show you that I do believe he s not Christian. Here is a list of reasons to believe he isn't.

In a 2004 interview with Cathleen Falsani, Obama said, “I believe that there are many paths to the same place.” Obama also said, “All people of faith—Christians, Jews, Muslims, animists, everyone knows the same God.”
But Jesus said in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” Nowhere in the Bible is there a reference to Obama’s “many paths.”
In a recent speech Obama distinguished himself from those who believe in the authority of the Bible. “Now this is going to be difficult for some who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, as many evangelicals do.” Obama went on to disparage and denigrate the scriptures.
In a very cynical way, Obama twists selective scriptures to advance non-Biblical lifestyles using the golden rule to justify supporting homosexual sodomy.
Obama even invokes the Bible by applying biblical pages to his campaign’s theme of political hope that actually refer to the hope Christians have in Christ. “At this moment, in this election, we must pledge once more to march into the future. Let us keep that promise, that American promise, and in the words of scripture hold firmly, without wavering, to the hope that we confess.”
Obama twists the Bible in an attempt to lend credibility to his agenda, even though he denies the Bible and it’s clear moral teachings. Obama is even derisive of faithful African American pastors who treat the Bible with respect. For Obama, his opinion, not the scripture, is the final authority.
In the sermon on the mount, Jesus affirmed that every “jot and tittle” of the Bible is true, including the parts that condemn homosexuality.In an interview with the homosexual publication, the Advocate, Obama attacked faithful black pastors who faithfully proclaim what the Bible says about homosexuality. “…most African-American churches are still fairly traditional in the interpretations of Scripture. And so from the pulpit or in sermons you still hear homophobic attitudes expressed.”
However, Obama lavished praise on his controversial former pastor and mentor, Jeremiah Wright, for being “very good on gay and lesbian issues.” Obama’s former church, Trinity United Church of Christ voted recently to approve of homosexual marriage.
Appearing before a recent meeting of Planned Parenthood, the largest abortion provider in America, Obama proudly said… “I have consistently had a 100% pro-choice rating with Planned Parenthood and NARAL Pro-Choice America.”

According to Christian beliefs, "Abortion is as an attack on the innocent human life of a baby who is made in the image of God."
Here is a list of verses that talk about the unborn

22 “Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely. If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman’s husband demands and the judges approve.23 But if there is further injury, the punishment must match the injury: a life for a life,24 an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot,25 a burn for a burn, a wound for a wound, a bruise for a bruise. Ex 21:22-25 (NLT)
3 “Give justice to the poor and the orphan; uphold the rights of the oppressed and the destitute. 4 Rescue the poor and helpless; deliver them from the grasp of evil people. Psalms 82:3-4 (NLT)
3 Children are a gift from the Lord; they are a reward from him. Psalms 127:3 (NLT)
13 You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14 Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous—how well I know it. 15 You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb. 16 You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed. Psalms 139:13-16 (NLT)
5 “I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.” Jer 1:5 (NLT)



In a New York Times interview in 2007, entitled Obama, A man of the World, Obama fondly recalled the Islamic evening call to prayer as “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.” According to the article, “Obama went on to recite its opening lines with a perfect Arabic accent: “Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme! I witness that there is no god but Allah! I witness that there is no god but Allah! I witness that Muhammad is his prophet!” The article said this would “give any one living Alabama a heart attack.”

Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God’s True Prophet, the full and final revelation of God. No true Christian can say the Muslim call to prayer is a “pretty sound” because it is a direct challenge to the truthfulness of Jesus Christ as the Word of God made flesh.
Mohammad denied that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The Muslim call to prayer affirms that Mohammad is God’s prophet. Jesus said, “For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." John 18:37 NKJV
For 20 years Barack Obama was a member of a Trinity United Church of Christ, one of the most radical “Afro-centric” churches in America, lead by Rev. Jeremiah Wright.
Rev. Wright is a self described Black Liberation theologian who, according to Obama, was his spiritual mentor.
Rev. Wright railed against the United States after the attacks of September 11th saying, “Not God bless America, God D*** America!”
Wright preached that 9/11 was God’s “payback” to the United States for “ignoring black concerns.”
Wright even said that HIV/AIDS (HIV / AIDS Victims 2) is a plot, orchestrated by the U.S. government, to kill blacks.
Obama initially defended Wright, but then resigned from the church only after Wright’s radical views became a political liability.
Black Liberation theology is from the 1970s and is based upon Marxism, socialism and class warfare. Although discredited decades ago, it still lives on at Obama’s home church.
According to Black Liberation Theologian, James Cone, racial identity trumps the fact that he is a Christian.
"The fact that I am Black is my ultimate reality… it is impossible for me to surrender this basic reality for a ‘higher, more universal’ reality.”
“Black theology knows no authority more binding than the experience of oppression itself. This alone must be the ultimate authority in religious matters.”
Black liberation theology declares that whites are essentially evil and are to be viewed as the enemy. "Whiteness as revealed in the history of America, is the expression of what is wrong with man. It is a symbol of man’s depravity… the coming of Christ means… destroying the white devil in us… in white racist society, Christian obedience can only mean being obedient to blackness, it’s glorification and exaltation… all white churches (are) anti-Christian in their essence."

The fact is, there is a mixture of good and evil in every person and in every race. All have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. Jesus rejected race based theology.
The Jews and the Samaritans of Christ’s day despised each other and even had rival places of worship, but Jesus said to a Samaritan woman. “The hour is coming and now is when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship him.” John 4:23
True worship, according to Jesus, transcends a person’s race.
By creation, all mankind share one blood. In redemption, all who believe, from any race, are saved by Christ. In heaven there will people of every tongue, tribe, people and nation in heaven who have been saved by God’s grace in Jesus Christ.
By Obama’s own account of his essential elements of true biblical conversion are lacking, namely, conviction of sin, repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of the world. When asked if he believed in sin, Obama said “Yes.” But when asked to define it, Obama said sin is, “Being out of alignment with my values.”
Obama said he feels most aligned spiritually “when I’m being true to myself.”

According to the Bible, when man sins, he sins against a Holy God in the violation of God’s holy law.
Sin is not based on any man’s standards. Righteousness is obedience to God and his word.
Obama is offended by the notion that all people need Christ in order to be saved.
“The difficult thing about… Christianity, is that at some level there is a call to evangelize... There’s the belief, certainly in some quarters, that people haven’t embraced Jesus Christ as their personal savior that they're going to hell.” So, if Jesus is not a Savior who rescues from hell, then who is Jesus to Obama?

“Jesus is an historical figure for me, and he’s also a bridge between God and man, in the Christian faith, and one that I think is powerful precisely because he serves as that means of us reaching something higher.”

This is not the testimony of a true Christian.
For Obama, Jesus is merely a historical figure not the risen and living Lord. For Obama, Jesus is merely “a” bridge in the “Christian faith,” not the only bridge for all mankind. For Obama, Jesus is a means to some vague “higher” thing.
To the Christian, knowing and experiencing Christ is the highest attainment of the Christian life.
Obama venerates doubt, which is contrary to the assurance of eternal salvation and truth which Christ gives his people. Asked if he was “born again,” Obama answered, “Yeah … [but] I retain… a suspicion of dogma… I think that religion at it's best comes with a big dose of doubt… I don’t presume to have knowledge of what happens after I die.”

Asked to describe the day he was converted Obama denies that there was any kind of supernatural enlightenment or an epiphany or a specific moment when he finally “got it.” “I think it was just a moment to certify or publicly affirm a growing faith in me.”
Obama’s testimony does not have the marks of a bona fide biblical conversion.

Jesus gives his assurance that “He who believes on me has everlasting life,” and “I go to prepare a place for you!”

When asked where he finds inspiration, Obama does not mention a relationship with Christ. He does mentions a lot of things church, but not Jesus.
When asked who was his role model he mentions Gandi. “Gandhi is a great example of a profoundly spiritual man who acted and risked everything on behalf of those values but never slipped into intolerance or dogma. He seemed to always maintain an air of doubt about him.” No mention of Christ.
Without the public admission that you are lost in sin and that you have turned from your sin and put your faith in Christ and his shed blood as the only remedy for sin, you are not truly converted.



With all these facts against him how can anyone say he is a christian?

P.S. I am Neutral about Obamacare but not Religion.
I believe that anybody can believe what they want but they shall not force it on another. They can speak their opinion on the subject but once you start trying to force someone to change you have crossed the line. I am a Christian and I know the true Christian walk. What I see in Obama is not Christianity but Fake-Christianity. You can maul this over then respond if you like. it won't change me but at least others will have a chance to choose for themselves

[The International]

lol
Show of hands.

Who watches Fox News here?

Now who watches MSNBC here?

Don't even bother. I bet I can guess who.

[Duffy]

I watch the BBC News.

What is this 'Fox?'

[The International]

Thank the God that everyone is debating about that you don't have to be subjected to either of those two channels, and the people that submit to their agendas on a daily basis.

[SirArtemis]

Only Fox I watch - Fox Soccer Channel!

(Watching ESPN at the moment for euro cup final.)

[hoytti]

To me the news is nothing new. Its the same old thing. so I don't watch either, instead I only search for things that I hear about and am interested in

[The International]

... Thou shalt not lie.

[hoytti]

I'm not, I watch neither because I believe the news is nothing but the same old thing. The war is getting worse, this building caught on fire, the president went to see such and such a person at such and such a time at such and such a place, The police is looking for this man, congress still hasn't balanced the budget, ext, ext, ext. See what I mean. Rarely is there something that interests me.

[SirArtemis]

It just makes me sad that religious ideology of any kind is being used as a tool to shape the political scope of this country. When this country was founded the reason freedom of religion was the very first amendment made to the constitution, included in the Bill of Rights in 1789, is because the founders believed that this was one of the most basic civil liberties given to the people of the country. The premise was to allow people to practice their own religion freely and comfortably in a non-intrusive way. Religion, or more like spirituality in modern day life, is a very personal thing.

What I believe Obama meant when speaking about the many faiths is that regardless of which teaching you observe, the premise of love of all, respect, and morality are all key points. I believe, though I may be wrong, that Jesus was adamant about the love of all. I would rather a genuinely good person, regardless of their faith, than a person with poor character.

Yet regardless of what one says, much of the religious injection into the very foundation of the United States has occurred in the last century. For example: The phrase "under God" was incorporated into the Pledge of Allegiance June 14, 1954. "In God we trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956 as an alternative or replacement to the unofficial motto of E pluribus unum, adopted when the Great Seal of the United States was created and adopted in 1782. In the later half of the 1900's religion continued to make its way into the very core foundation of American politics and it has reached an astonishing level in modern day politics. For many, dare I say the majority of Americans, the question of who is to be the next President is decided by the "make or break" of their faith.

Regardless of your belief on issues such as homosexuality, abortion, contraception, pre-marital behavior, tattoos, piercings, or whatever issues might crop up - it's important to remember that these are your personal views. If you do not approve of them, then they will not be a part of your life. But under the notion of freedom is the implication that one cannot and will not use their own rights in order to remove the rights of another. If a religious group of any kind uses their views and teachings as a REASON to take the rights away from another, then the very premise of this country is lost.

It is about doing what is best for PEOPLE, all people, WE the people, the members of this country, and even for people all over the world (if we're stretching the moral compass). That should not be a decision guided by religion, or any other strong view such as that, when it offends the very premise of this country.

/End

[Amber Eyes]

Okay, just because someone says their a Christian and they go to a Christian church does NOT mean their christian. He could have easily been wanting to be the president which, at this moment, being a Christian is an unofficial law, made by the people of the United States. So, in order for him to become president he could have called himself "Christian" and gone to a Christian church just to get the job.

Are you actually trying to say that you have more knowledge of his individual relationship with Jesus Christ than he does? For all we really know any of the highest renowned Christian leaders of the world could be full of crap. You can't make that call. Only one person in the world knows if Barack Obama is a true believer, and since that one person is telling me he is, I'm inclined to believe it rather than come up with some ignorant conspiracy theory about how he's using religion to win votes. I could just as easily say than no one on this forum is a Christian, is it true? Probably not, but its just as possible as your assumption. Also, being Christian is hardly an 'unoficial law'. I'm assuming either you're in the bible belt or you honestly don't watch the news, if its the second one it might be a good idea to start.



According to Christian beliefs, "Abortion is as an attack on the innocent human life of a baby who is made in the image of God."

Where did this quote come from? I've been in church my whole life and I have never seen this printed in the bible. If you are going to quote something and say it is 'according to Christian beliefs, it pretty much needs to be in the bible, as that is about the only thing most Christians can agree on.

With that said, I am very much pro-life. The bigger issue with the abortion debate isn't if it is wrong to kill a child, I doubt very much that people are lining up to kill people knowing that they are doing so. The issue is that many people don't consider a fetus a human. When exactly does it become a person? Is it at conception? If so, and I unknowingly play sports during early pregnancy and lose my child am I guilty of manslaughter? Or is it what the pope claims, when the fetus become 'insouled' which he claimed happened well after conception? Does this make the morning after pill okay? What about first trimester abortions? Are those okay because the being inside me doesn't have a soul yet? Or is it what some pro-choice people believe (notice I didn't say claim, they truly believe this) and a fetus does not become a person until it is capable of sustaining life outside the mother? Are wolves, horses and other animals like that commiting a crime against God because they can at will abort their fetus'? If so, why did God give them the ability to do so? Its not a simple answer, and those claiming it is just don't get it. The argument for making abortion a crime under the point that is murder is ridiculous until we can say for certain when a human becomes a human.

[hoytti]

I never said that just because he is clearly not a True-Christian that he should not be the president for the bible says "Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God." ~ Romans 13:1 (NLT) What I am saying is that he is not a "Christian". God put him for a reason and we Christians have to respect that. That doesn't mean we should like what he is doing.

Another important verse us Christians should uphold "Remind the believers to submit to the government and its officers. They should be obedient, always ready to do what is good.2 They must not slander anyone and must avoid quarreling. Instead, they should be gentle and show true humility to everyone." ~ Titus 3:1-2 (NLT)

I choose to follow even if I don't like it. I will give my opinion if asked or prompted to but I shall never fight the government. Though, if the government crosses a line that no Christian should cross I will not cross it. I won't move against it but I will explain that I can't follow. What ever the government does is their responsibility. “ 'You are about to enter the land the Lord your God is giving you. When you take it over and settle there, you may think, ‘We should select a king to rule over us like the other nations around us.’15 If this happens, be sure to select as king the man the Lord your God chooses. You must appoint a fellow Israelite; he may not be a foreigner.
16 'The king must not build up a large stable of horses for himself or send his people to Egypt to buy horses, for the Lord has told you, ‘You must never return to Egypt.’17 The king must not take many wives for himself, because they will turn his heart away from the Lord. And he must not accumulate large amounts of wealth in silver and gold for himself.
18 'When he sits on the throne as king, he must copy for himself this body of instruction on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests.19 He must always keep that copy with him and read it daily as long as he lives. That way he will learn to fear the Lord his God by obeying all the terms of these instructions and decrees.20 This regular reading will prevent him from becoming proud and acting as if he is above his fellow citizens. It will also prevent him from turning away from these commands in the smallest way. And it will ensure that he and his descendants will reign for many generations in Israel." ~ Deut 17:14-20 (NLT)

[Duffy]

So in short...Obamacare is bad because Obama isn't Christian enough for you?

:confused:

Gods, please elect a transgender, female, gay, or under 25 president...

[hoytti]

This had nothing to do about obamacare this Forum is titled "Obamacare and More" This falls under more. Anyway, I'm neutral about Obamacare but don't trust his claim about being a Christian. Obamacare, just like anything else that has come before it can be good but just like food stamps, unemployment, and anything else that is taken from our taxes, it can and will be misused. That is why I am neutral because it is both good and bad.

[The International]

Are you using the NIV version?

[Amber Eyes]

From what I can tell he is using the new living translation.

[Visla Eraclaire]

Gods, please elect a transgender, female, gay, or under 25 president...

The last would require a constitutional amendment. Minimum age is 35. U.S. Const. Art. II, Clause 5

[Duffy]

Haha, really?

Do people suddenly gain sense at 35??

[hoytti]

"I think it's the belief that the older you get the wiser you get. 35 was old to them since they only lived to be 40 on average

[Amber Eyes]

Just a note, I swear I'm not trying to be an argumentative twit. I just enjoy a good debate :P

When you look at lifespan averages from that time it isn't a good indication of what 'old' was. You have to keep in mind that those averages were dramatically lowered because of infant and children deaths, as well as deaths during childbirth. If you made it through those things you were nearly as likely as today to make it to 60, 70, even 80 years old. George Washinton died in his late 60s, Adams and Jefferson were in their 90s and 80s respectively.

I think perhaps a better explanation would be that at 35 people have usually already made something of themselves if they are going to, have already 'figured out who they are' if you will. A funny fact I found while looking up the president's ages- even though you only have to be 35 to be elected president, the youngest person to ever be elected was 43 (JFK) while the youngest person to ever be president was Roosevelt who was 42.

[hoytti]

Thanks for the tip. I'll keep that in mind next time I have to talk about ages. Yuo probably are right about the reason being that they have made a name for themselves though if you look at history some of the best "Rulers" were kids; King Joash returned Israel to a respected country, Queen Victoria took the thrown in her teens, and the last Emperor of China Puyi was only two when he became emperor and took complete control at 15.

[SirArtemis]

It's important to note that a "ruler" is never the only one involved. Even if it is a dynamic where a king or emperor of sorts makes the primary decisions, there is often a lineup of trusted advisers and counselors influencing those decisions, especially when at such a young age. Children of royalty or aristocratic lineage are often very close with one particular person who raises them and cares for them, and these people generally stay close as the person takes office and later as well. You never know who is really pulling the strings.

[absentwizard]

On Health Care
The best way to avoid making mistakes is to find someone who has already made all the mistakes and has the best solution, then copy the solution. At this time, it means copying certain systems in Europe. The question is to find what "best" means. For the people, "best" means improved health. For the medical industry, "best" means profits. Government is for the people, by the people, and therefore should go with the former option. Come to think of it, I shudder to think of any essential services such as health, education, law enforcement, fire protection, and emergency rescue as "industries." There will be short-term pains and job losses as the field reshapes itself, but these are for long-term benefits.
In Short: Go with public health care and ignore the businesses.

On the Meaning of Religion in Government
I don't follow why it should be a consideration for people to want to elect officials of the same religious denomination as they are unless the people are fundamentalists. Considering that what one wants a representative to do is to govern well and to make religion a necessary condition of representation is equivalent to saying that one's religion is an unavoidable source of governmental guidance, which is fundamentalism. A key word here is 'unavoidable', which means that the reasoning stems from and only from the religion in question and cannot be found anywhere else. I am also fairly certain of the fact that fundamentalist governments are negatively correlated with the growth of prosperity of a nation.
I think that any representative candidate who cites religion as a salient point during his campaign shows a willingness to pander, a weakness to allow personal feelings to come into the serious business of government, and an opening for influence and corruption by religious sources. Even if one is of a certain religion, one should not find a representative on the grounds that the representative is of the same religion, since religion is not a good indicator of the ability of the representative to do the job, which is to govern. The exception to this is if one wants the government based on religion, which is the definition of theocracy.
In Short: Wanting religion in government makes theocracy and theocracy is bad.

On the Inconsistent Application of Scripture
I have yet to meet anyone who applies all parts of any scriptures when fitting situations occur. They all pick pieces that they follow and ignore or fail to act on other pieces. Therefore, it is hypocritical for such a person to require complete application of scripture of other people. So, for example, someone using the Sermon on the Mount to assert the complete truth and applicability of all parts of scripture exposes an internally inconsistent viewpoint. It seems to me that such a person began with the desired goal in mind and then sought out support for it without considering the implications of said support.
In Short: Nobody applies all of scripture, therefore hypocritical to claim to do so.

On the Legality of Abortion and Protecting the Fetus
It is not the purpose of government to legislate morality; this is what part of the First Amendment essentially states. There are crimes because crimes injure a legally protected party or endanger the stability of the governed society as a whole. The pro-life argument in this vein, as I understand it, is to make the fetus a protected party. However, to make the fetus a protected party means that a new set of crimes, many of negligence, regarding miscarriages and developmental disorders will have to be created. It would be negligent homicide to have a miscarriage if the miscarriage is shown to result from the mother's living habits.
The main pro-life argument, that from religion, confuses me somewhat because it is essentially trying to legislate one person's religious views on someone who does not hold that view. Someone else having an abortion does not have an effect outside of that person. Therefore, there is less harm to the society done than drunkenness, which does have negative effects. Yet Prohibition was repealed.
In Short: Making the fetus a legally protected party results in a lot of new crimes other than abortion.

[Vigil]

Wow. I was in Washington and managed to miss another political thread. I enjoy reading these.


Haha, really?

Do people suddenly gain sense at 35??

After reading some of the comments stated in this thread by individuals who are predominantly under the age of 30 and, dare I say most even being under the age of 25, it probably doesn't hurt to have people wait until they're 35 to grow up, gain some more world experience and stop acting like a dumbass before we allow them to run for president.

To everyone else, especially 4saykin in the opening post; The majority of what I've read in this thread has been genuinely stupid tripe that people have picked up from taglines (see title). Or they have regurgitated the same insane arguments they've heard on television or radio in the hope and faith that sharing these idiotic ideas with other average people that it somehow will add to their validity. It doesn't and the difference is that the person who said it first was paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for what was a genuinely stupid thought while you gain nothing from it and make yourself out to be an idiot. For those who aren't following, an example of a genuinely stupid thing for a person to say would be the really out of place and weird comparison of our president to Hitler, especially when discussing domestic policy promoting healthcare.

If you've actually taken time to become informed, regardless of your affilation and have been making reasonable points, I apologize and none of this applies to you, but I'm grapeshotting it.

That being said, don't let what I've written here deter you paranoiacs and ham radio enthusiasts from sharing these pearls of wisdom with the rest of us. Though I find it disturbing that some of you genuinely believe some of these crazy things, its entertaining to read them.

In fact, I often stop between sentences and wonder what is going to go through your head in November when you're standing in the voting booth and deciding what box to check. Because its far more likely that those with tinfoil hats or those who possess mounds of evidence over the validity of someone's birth certificate are more likely to vote then those who are more reasonable and less impressionable by AM radio and the ticker on news programs. That is truly sad and kind of depressing.

[Connor Lacuna]

http://housedocs.house.gov/energycommerce/ppacacon.pdf

This is what we are talking about here.

From what I've read so far, it's all in the interest of the consumer, and not in the interest of corporations or the government.

However, I'm not very far into it, and it's a very long law.

Feel free to join me in reading through this.

[Max Dirks]

Look at it from the doctor's perspective, Connor, and you'll see the biggest corporate gains.

Expansion of Medicaid/Medicare is generally bad for private practice. Right now, doctors usually only receive about 35% of the amount of claims they make under those programs. If private practitioners are forced to take in more Medicaid/Medicare patents, they stand to lose millions of dollars. Instead of seeing new doctors move immediately to private practice after med school, you'll see a mass migration of doctors move to corporate medicine to try to make some money to offset their $250K in student loan debt. This is the reason why you saw a huge stock increase in publicly traded hospitals and a huge stock decrease in insurance companies the day the Supreme Court upheld most of Obamacare.

All doctors I've spoken with, even the staunchly liberal, abhor Obamacare.

[black shadow]

OOk, got bored, found this thread, and now I shall share my only real concern about obamacare... Because of obamacare, EVERY American MUST have health insurance right? Well then... What are they going to do to the tens of thousands of homeless people out on Skid Row, Los Angelas California, that wonder every single day whether they will have something to eat that day, and whether or not they will wake up the next morning? Those people don't have anything, some work, but even with the work have very very little. Having a box to sleep in makes you lucky there. What is out government going to do to them? Arrest them? Fine them? They are citizens too!

EDIT: and if they do fine them then this is what will happen... They get fined let's say $100, they can't pay it off, they get arrested because of not paying, they get out in jail, and the governed then starts paying I think it's $38,000 a year to keep each one of them alive, causing our countries debt to go deeper and deeper than it already is.

[Warpath]

You're right. It's probably better if we just stop trying to give everybody health care, because that's stupid.

It's stupid to try. It's WAY easier to just ignore things.

[Aurelianus Drak'shal]

Well, I'm just going to sit here and feel smug over the NHS. ;)

[Zook Murnig]

Black Shadow, the fines are part of taxation, so if you don't qualify for taxes (for example, if you don't have a job that pays qualifying income), then you're off the hook, I'd wager. They aren't going around asking for papers, because that's dumb and a waste of police time, money, and resources. They'll probably just have another question on your tax paperwork asking for your insurance provider and member number, and a checkbox for those who wish to forgo insurance and pay the (relatively small) fee.

If the homeless were going to be arrested for things like this, which are part and parcel with being homeless, it would have been happening for decades. The homeless don't pay taxes, because they don't generally have income as far as the government is concerned. If they do have any income, the government tends to turn a blind eye to it because, seriously, taxing a guy who made a couple hundred dollars in a year is a waste of, again, time, money, and resources.

In essence, there's nothing to worry about there, because what you're suggesting is completely infeasible and impossible to enforce.

[Chelley]

Wizard of ID is awesome. That is all.

[Max Dirks]

If only I knew what I know now about Obamacare when I made my first post in this thread. What a disaster :(