Welcome to America

[TheOnlyGhost]

I found this website and I agree with everything it said, it was written by someone else (which is mentioned) about how as a country we really are:

Quote:


One Day You're Gonna Wake Up
by David Michael Green

One day you're gonna wake up, America.

And, like every other one since last you can remember, it's gonna be an ugly morning.

One day you're gonna wake up and go to your lousy job with its lousy salary and non-existent benefits. You might even remember the good job you once had. Or that the government you once supported gave tax breaks to companies like the one that exported that good job of yours to the Third World (which is what they're now starting to call your country). Or that that same government undermined the labor unions which fought to get you your good wages and benefits.

One day you're gonna wake up and be furious at the monstrous tax burden you are carrying, a tab which accounts for fifty of the seventy hours you must work each week just to eke by. You might even figure out why your tax bill is so high. You might remember that the government you once supported shifted the tax burden from the rich onto people like you, and from the taxpayers of the time onto those of today. And that they borrowed money in astonishing quantities to fund their sleight-of-hand, so that you work thirty hours a week just to pay the interest on a mountain of money borrowed decades ago.

One day you're gonna wake up in anger at the absurdly poor education your children are receiving. You're gonna remember that it wasn't always that way, that even after the military's voracious appetite was temporarily sated, your country still managed to find a few bucks to at least educate a workforce. No more. And you're gonna remember how you applauded when your educational system was twisted in to a test taking industry that is careful, above all, not to teach children how to think.

One day you're gonna wake up literally sick and tired. You're gonna want treatment for your maladies but you won't be able to touch the cost. You're gonna wonder what you were thinking when believed your country had the best healthcare system in the world, even though it was the only advanced democracy in the world that didn't provide universal care, even though it devoted fifty percent more of its economy than those other countries to pay for a system that left fifty million people uninsured, and even though there were massive layers of unnecessary and harmful private sector bureaucracy skimming hundreds of billions of dollars of profits out of the system in the name of free enterprise.

One day you're gonna wake up too tired to go to work anymore. You're gonna want to retire in dignity but will be left instead to laugh bitterly at the cruelty of that joke. And you're gonna wonder what in the world you had been thinking voting for a president who's primary goal was to allow Wall Street to raid Social Security, destroying what had once been considered the most successful domestic program in human history.

One day you're gonna wake up and wish that it wasn't so bloody hot, and that there weren't so many diseases and species eradications and violent storms lashing the planet. And maybe you'll even remember that you once supported a government that lied about the very existence of global warming - back when it might have been curtailed - a government that scuttled the barest remedy for the problem in order to protect oil company profits.

One day you're gonna wake up and wish you had a government that could simply and competently do the basic things it was designed for. A government that could protect you from foreign attack, that could come to your rescue after a devastating hurricane, that could properly manage a new program or other people's security. An administration that didn't pervert the purpose of every agency within the government to its opposite, using civil rights lawyers to fight civil rights, for example, or the EPA to protect polluters.

One day you're gonna wake up and cry out for simple justice, blindly applied without bias. And perhaps you'll remember when that principle died. When your country stood by and watched the politicization of its judicial system for purposes of partisanship, and said nothing. When it stood by and watched its highest law enforcement officials in the land lie about their failing memory of events and pretended to believe that was acceptable.

One day you're gonna wake up and wish that you weren't being drafted to go fight wars you don't believe in. You'll remember how soldiers were sent to their deaths for lies. You'll remember how badly they were treated when they came home maimed and twisted. You'll remember how real, patriotic, former soldiers were mocked and humiliated by dress-up, unpatriotic, former non-soldiers. And suddenly you'll understand why no one would volunteer for the military anymore, and why people like you had to be drafted.

One day you're gonna wake up and want very badly to run outside and scream in anger about a government that long ago stopped serving your interests in favor of the narrow interests of a tiny oligarchy. But instead you'll stay inside and keep your scream tucked safely in your belly. Because you'll know that in your country dissent has long since been outlawed, on pain of torture and death. You'll remember concepts like due process, limitations on government search, seizure and wiretapping, habeas corpus, trial by peers, legal representation and prohibitions against cruel and unusual punishment as historical artifacts no longer even taught in schools.

On day you're gonna wake up and want so badly to change governments. You're gonna treasure the concept of democracy like no Soviet dissident ever did. You're gonna crave the opportunity to own your own government, to make your own societal choices, to make a change of direction never before so desperately necessary. And you're gonna wonder why you didn't speak up as you watched first-hand the dismantling of the democracy you had been handed by previous generations of patriots. You're gonna wish you had been patriotic enough yourself to demand, above all else, free and fair elections, and you're gonna shake your head in puzzlement at how you stood by watching in silence those that patently were not.

One day you're gonna wake up and want to get the hell out of your rotting, repressive country. You're gonna remember a time when that wasn't true. But, oddly enough, you'll find that other countries remember too. They'll remember your country's arrogance, its unilateralism, its walls, its racism, and its politicized abuse of immigrants. And they'll remember how your government undermined and violently replaced theirs whenever corporations from your country had their profits threatened. You're gonna want to leave, but there will be nowhere you'll be welcome. You're gonna find out that walls can face both directions.

One day you're gonna wake up in a hostile world where your country no longer has any friends. There will be governments of other countries - former long-standing allies - that cannot afford to have anything to do with you, lest their publics angrily remove them from office for collaborating with a country as hated as yours. Nor will those governments trust yours anyway. They will perhaps possess intelligence that could save your life, but they will not share it. They will possess forces that could help you survive real security threats, but they will not provide them. Your country will have become an international pariah, the South Africa of the twenty-first century.

And because no one will assist you, one day you're gonna wake up fearing for your life as your country is brutally attacked by angry militants deploying weapons of mass destruction against your cities. Long dormant connections in your brain will resurface, and you will dimly understand why. On this day - perhaps March 20, 2023 - you might be assisted in your comprehension by the message of one of the attackers, someone whose family your country callously destroyed in its mission accomplished in Iraq, and who spent the next twenty years plotting this day's revenge. And you will wonder again why you stood by as your country attacked Iraq on a completely bogus pretext. You'll remember applauding when this mailed fist was long ago sent. And, just as it comes hurling back in your direction at a lethal velocity, stamped "Return to Sender", you'll wonder what you were thinking. And you'll realize just how much you weren't.

One day you're gonna wake up, America, and you're gonna find out what was happening while you were sprawled on the couch watching endless mind-numbing loops of CSI, Desperate Housewives or Dancing with the Stars.

One day you're gonna wake up and realize that catching all the action during week seven of the 2011 NFL season really wasn't so critical in the greater scheme of things after all.

One day you're gonna wake up and wished you'd invested a little more energy into monitoring and choosing the people who made monumental decisions on your behalf.

One day, with a flash of remorse greater than you thought it possible that one human vessel could contain, you'll remember the ignored warning shots across your bow. Moments later, you'll discover the human capacity for searing remorse is actually even greater still, as you contemplate your inattention even to the shots that were fired right through the bow. With a fury you would yesterday have thought yourself incapable of, you'll hurriedly attempt to affix Band-Aids to the tattered splinters remaining from your country's once sturdy hull. But you'll learn quickly the toll of those years spent wasted in a civic coma. You'll find that no amount of patchwork can any longer save this sinking ship from its appointment with the dustbin of history.

In shame, you'll regret the callous arrogance with which you laughingly dismissed those who sounded the early clarion call. "We are destroying ourselves", they tried to tell you. But even on the rare occasion when you roused yourself from your stupor long enough to learn the slightest bit about the very threats that jeopardized your life and that of your species, still you found it more reassuring to follow the blustering worst amongst us, with their patently absurd pretended confidence, and their ever constant resort to the cheapest of false solutions, and the rudest of demeanors.

One day, you'll desperately search for hope of any sort, but none will remain. Nothing will be left to save you.

One day you'll realize that once there were solutions, but that that day is now long past. You'll see that human technological capacity ran its evolutionary race with wisdom, and the latter came in second. You'll sadly realize that you stood by while your country led the once great tool-making species to its own destruction.

One day you're gonna wake up, America, and realize how far it's all gone. But if that day isn't very soon, it won't matter.

Because one day you're gonna wake up, and it will be far, far too late.

Welcome to America! Hope you enjoy your stay.

...

Source: http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/04/962

[SirArtemis]

+1, I watch with an immense depression each day the endless stream of stupid, and I'll admit I've contemplated leaving the country a few times now. Maybe I will within the decade. I guess the first thing will be to see just how stupid America can be with the next election. So far they haven't let me down with their epic failures.

EDIT: Also interesting to note that was written 5 years ago, before Obama even sat down.

[Moonberrycat]

*Starts humming 'Proud To Be An American'* Oh well yes, this is very true how....bad America is becoming. I also believe that more people should be able to read this and realize whats REALLY going on, instead of the lies there being told and the exagerations of the news, and for once see eye-to-eye, maybe then we could do something. Rebel against the country, start over again maybe? Something. Honestly, I don't think the Government needs to be done with, I think there needs to be someone who CAN lead a nation, be put in there. But also we people need to learn not to take this place forgranted because something or someone could come along and knock all their faith down....just a bit 2 cents from me.

[SirArtemis]

It's just corrupt. The best metaphor I can give you is one from when I visited Spain my junior year of high school.

While visiting, there was an open bazaar where people went to buy all the stuff they'd need, especially food. I didn't speak enough Spanish, but I did know how to point. I saw two pomegranates on a shelf at the back of a fruit market area and pointed to one and purchased it. I love the things. They are one of my favorite things in the world and every season I stock up. It's delicious and relaxing. But it takes time to eat one if you're going to carefully pick it apart, and I was on a school trip with a score of other people, so I had to wait.

So I throw it in my bag and keep it with me until the group settles down in a park on some benches and borrow a knife from one of the chaperones. Then, for all it's ruby red external glory, when I crack that pomegranate open right down the middle, I'm met with a dead, gray and black interior that spits a poof of dust at my face upon opening. I could not begin to tell you the devastation I felt. It didn't pop into my head to think about what time of year it was (not winter, which is their season). All I thought was that this was something I knew I liked, and I assumed it was the same as the rest.


Today, it's our politicians. Those politicians, who were once the shining ruby red, the bright glow of our country, the forerunners who we elected to bring our country to glory and raise the flag as heroes, are as corrupt and dead as the inside of that pomegranate. It doesn't matter which team you play on, they are corrupt everywhere. It's a disease festering in our nation. The open wound of poverty that is fed by the disease of greed that is creeping into everyone's core and turning everyone on each other. It might as well BE a zombie apocalypse, because that's what every day feels like.

Read some of his more recent articles. After 5 years, he seems to have lost hope. And I'm in accordance with him. I just do what I can to get through the day, because I'm tired of trying to show people how blind and stupid they are. I'd rather get a new item for my level up profile than waste any more breath on these people.

'Merica! Fuck that.

[TheOnlyGhost]

This is PERFECT!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ4SSvVbhLw

^

Absolutely true!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q&feature=related ---- continues at 2:15

[SirArtemis]

May he rest in peace. Carlin was a pioneer, and most of what he says is still 100% valid.

[TheOnlyGhost]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mII9NZ8MMVM&feature=related

[SirArtemis]

Best. Ending. Ever.

[TheOnlyGhost]

This has a much easier explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqUGoVez8xg&feature=related

Now you know why I have NEVER owned a credit card in my life (true story), 'nor will ever do so. The less credit/debt the better.

[SirArtemis]

I agree ghost. I also avoid credit cards. I have a college degree and zero debt of any kind. The problem is, they have made society dependent on "credit scores" so you have to find ways to circumnavigate that.


EDIT: Yeah, that's a pretty simple video. I've seen countless explanations. I went to school for finance and economics so I'm pretty solid on the whole crisis. It's pretty bad. But that's just one part of the crisis. It runs deeper, and decades long.

[absentwizard]

Things in moderation, though.

"to the Third World (which is what they're now starting to call your country)"
Be fair. Comparing conditions in the actual Third World as equivalence with conditions in the United States is hyperbole at best.

"monstrous tax burden you are carrying"
A high tax rate is not, in of itself, a bad thing. It becomes a bad thing when you don't get anything of value back in exchange. For comparison, the tax rate in Sweden is 48.3% (before a 25% VAT), in Switzerland it is 13% tops, in Germany it is around 40%. Admittedly, a 71.4% tax rate as proposed here exceeds the highest in the First World, which is Belgium at about 55%.

"military's voracious appetite was temporarily sated"
The military is not really the fundamental issue here. Follow the money to find who benefits - the private contractors. I don't mean Blackwater. I mean people like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, Finmeccanica, Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Textron, all in no particular order or selection. Since they are for-profit companies with obligations to their stockholders, it is not possible to 'sate' them, even temporarily.

"your educational system was twisted in to a test taking industry"
The commercialization of education close to but is not the fundamental problem here. The fundamental problem is the attitude towards education in the first place. For example, in China, a teacher holds a highly respected position because they are entrusted with the education of children. Parents behave subordinately to the will of the teacher. It's an aspect of the mass culture. Having government-run education may also help in this matter.

"so many diseases and species eradications"
At face value, these two are mutually exclusive. Diseases are originated by species, so if we're eradicating them, then we should have less diseases. What's actually happening is that endemic diseases have more opportunities to become epidemic as globalization of commerce. On the other hand, global warming increases the overall energy available to the biosphere and in the long run would increase biodiversity by opening up previously energetically inaccessible niches. What's actually being observed is the shock of environmental change. Any change in the climate whatsoever, not necessarily warming, would have the same effect. As an observation not intended to dispute that rates are increasing, species eradications happen all the time; nature does not exist in some static balance and the concept of animals living in balance with their environment is completely bunk.

"A government that could protect you from foreign attack"
This is troublesome, since it seems to be currently acceptable as proof that a foreign attack was prevented is that there was no foreign attack. There is no limiter on spending in this case and the people receiving all the spending really would prefer the spending to go on. There is always profit in war, but it only receives a perpetual positive feedback if the profit comes from within your own nation.

"pervert the purpose of every agency within the government to its opposite"
Regulatory capture happens because there is profit in it and you'll run out of watchmen sooner or later. I think that it's part of the reason why, for example, Thomas Jefferson suggested that having revolution every so often is good for the nation.

"politicization of its judicial system"
You should not fail to note the commercialization of its judicial system, as well. There is profit to be made in running prison systems. There is profit to be made in issuing as many speeding tickets as possible using as few paid officers as possible.

"weren't being drafted to go fight wars you don't believe in"
I don't think that there's a draft presently and implying that there will be one is simply dishonest. Besides, this statement is a bit tautological: if you had believed in the war, then you would have volunteered, so you wouldn't have been drafted.

"find that other countries remember too"
International relations are pragmatic. They only remember past incidents if the remembering will get them an advantage of some kind.

*speculation snip*
Corruption is going to happen. You cannot prevent it. You can only slow it through cultivating certain attitudes in the population or reset it through small revolutions. Attitudes like "our problem is my problem" or "teaching is an honored and sacred position".

[Vigil]

I suppose there is something to be said about youthful idealism. But then again, eventually you have to grow up and accept the world you live in and the things in it for what they are. That's a part of life and growing up. The guy who wrote this is an idiot. And I'd love to hear the reasoning behind defending his rant after accepting all of it with parts such as this;

"One day you're gonna wake up in anger at the absurdly poor education your children are receiving. You're gonna remember that it wasn't always that way, that even after the military's voracious appetite was temporarily sated, your country still managed to find a few bucks to at least educate a workforce. No more. And you're gonna remember how you applauded when your educational system was twisted in to a test taking industry that is careful, above all, not to teach children how to think."

Jackass.

[SirArtemis]

I suppose there is something to be said about youthful idealism. But then again, eventually you have to grow up and accept the world you live in and the things in it for what they are. That's a part of life and growing up. The guy who wrote this is an idiot. And I'd love to hear the reasoning behind defending his rant after accepting all of it with parts such as this;

"One day you're gonna wake up in anger at the absurdly poor education your children are receiving. You're gonna remember that it wasn't always that way, that even after the military's voracious appetite was temporarily sated, your country still managed to find a few bucks to at least educate a workforce. No more. And you're gonna remember how you applauded when your educational system was twisted in to a test taking industry that is careful, above all, not to teach children how to think."

Jackass.

For every person who makes claims that "youthful idealism" is some negative mindset that you grow out of, I challenge them to recognize that with your own resignation and decision to just accept things for "what they are," you are perpetuating the very inaction that ensures nothing changes. It is self-fulfilling prophecy in its finest, and for every moment you spend destroying someone's imagination, you blatantly disregard the fact that anything that ever WAS began as nothing more than an idea, a thought, and often times, youthful idealism. So instead of shitting on and mocking everything that represents an attempt at positive change for the greater good of humanity, disregarding it as youthful idealism that isn't worth listening to, and waiting for them to "grow up," why don't you explain what exactly makes this person an idiot and jackass rather than arbitrarily pointing out a quote and not backing up anything of your own opinion?

Our education is crap. It does not teach our children how to think, nor does it teach them coping mechanisms or what it takes to be a functioning and healthy adult. It teaches you to have the basic skillsets needed to eventually become another cog in the great machine that is American capitalism. I see nothing outright wrong with his statement. And your blatant insults and disregard without any backing is the very thing that makes YOUR disregard of "youthful idealism" sound just like another bitter adult who got his toys taken away and decided that if he can't have them, then no one can, and instead of trying to change the world, he spends the rest of his life just focusing on himself and his immediate circle.

The moment you disregard the betterment of the world on the basis that "they're assholes so why should I be nice?" you've given up virtue and are living just as the very people you insult and blame for your own behavior. Yes, the world is a wreck, in shambles, and human beings are an embarrassment when compared to their incredible potential. But however stark reality may appear to be, shitting on those who have a dream of a better future is far more hurtful than letting them dream. Because often times, it's those people who are crazy enough to think that they can change things that actually do.

[hoytti]

* Applaud* Excellently put and I have to agree. Think about our founding fathers. During a time where Monarchy was King (Literally), they decided that everyone should have a choice in what they believed in and took action upon it. I bet you that all other countries considered it Youthful Idealism as well. Though our system is going down the drain it is not the same system implemented by our founding fathers. It is a bugged update to that system. The bug being the banking system.

[Vigil]

For every person who makes claims that "youthful idealism" is some negative mindset that you grow out of, I challenge them to recognize that with your own resignation and decision to just accept things for "what they are," you are perpetuating the very inaction that ensures nothing changes. It is self-fulfilling prophecy in its finest, and for every moment you spend destroying someone's imagination, you blatantly disregard the fact that anything that ever WAS began as nothing more than an idea, a thought, and often times, youthful idealism.

Or...

You accept things for how they are and become grounded in reality, because its those people who often are capable of making the decisions and working towards creating a better world for the next generation actually do then those who are stymied and crippled by youthful idealism and disillusioned by nostalgia. It is very difficult for anybody to enact some sort of positive change, especially in their own life system, if they cannot accept the world for what it is. That is a critical step in functioning not only as an adult, but as a member of society. People who are drowned on television and being coddled by their parents often have illusions of grandeur about changing the world. There's nothing wrong with wanting to improve the world, but I think a lot of people overlook at the importance of being able to positively affect those directly in your lives. You don't need to be Einstein or somebody who invents something that revolutionizes our culture in order to do it. It happens by helping those around you, remembering the importance of family and promoting a better life for others.

I vehemently disagree with the idea that idealism has really any positive contribution at all to our society other then teenagers making the transition from thinking of how things ought to be to focusing on what they can improve that is within their immediate reach and expanding from there. To your audacious accusation that people like me put the big thinkers down and ruin their ability to change our culture, I'm astounded at your arrogance. At how you fail to realize how little and truly insignificant each of us is in a functioning society when we start out, but only by going out in the world, becoming educated, developing personal growth and collecting real world experience do you have any chance of affecting anything world wide. So instead of perpetuating the urban myth that every man is a genius and fully capable of searching for that cure for cancer that you hold your horses, shut up and start appreciating life for what it is.

Things get better. If you want to improve our society, get a job and become trained in a profession that contributes to it and help in your own way. The idea that one man can bend society to its will and change it as they see fit is a weird symptom of our television generation whose grown up on shows of heroes, damsels and everybody in distress, and once a problem is solved the rest of the world becomes ideal and sublime. It doesn't work that way and it never will. So, sorry to be the guy to break your fragile ego and any aspirations of becoming a fundamental part of our society, but perhaps you should just move on with your life and carry on rather then crying over the malaise of problems that are the symptoms of issues that have been perpetuated by each generation trying to live up and improve on what was left behind for them by those that came before us.



Our education is crap. It does not teach our children how to think, nor does it teach them coping mechanisms or what it takes to be a functioning and healthy adult. It teaches you to have the basic skillsets needed to eventually become another cog in the great machine that is American capitalism.

Our education system being bad depends on the level you're at and where you are being taught. No Child Left Behind really kicked our education system in the teeth in terms of high school and grade schools, but you are still being taught a decent education. I'm not sure where you get being taught how to think benefits you in a lot of ways growing up, because I sincerely doubt that any education can fully prepare you for life after school. Experience in the world we live in teaches you how to think, how to react to certain situations and how to function as an adult in our society. It would be nice if schools weren't as dogmatic in what they taught then others, but that's not all of them. All I was ever really programmed to do from my grade school education was alcohol and drug awareness. That's about it. So no, I don't accept your or his argument that our education system is terrible. At all. It could be better, as with anything, and I'd applaud the repeal of the NCLB act, but I don't see a lot of problems with how our education system is now. My problem lies in the individuals who think they needed to be handed everything and that their teachers and parents ought to pamper them by teaching them how to approach every situation in their lives in order to.. I guess deal with their problems better? Want an easy fix to becoming better at solving those situations using those critical thinking skills? Experience them. And then have some damn discipline and know right from wrong to see your way through it. And nine times out of ten, I'm sure you'll make your way through it to the other side with a little bit more knowledge, enriched by experience and a lot fucking wiser.

Parents need to stop coddling their kids and let them make mistakes, and the type of person who wrote this and you need to wake up and realize that no education system is perfect. And I sincerely doubt that any education system would be more proactive in helping you develop a resistance or tolerance to American Capitalism since that's the society and country you live in. Frankly, if you don't like it, fucking leave and take a tour around the world. See how others function in a generation where commercialism has met technology and mass communication. We're a lot more similar to the rest of the world then a lot of self-loathing, there's-no-problem-i-cant-solve Americans think they are. And only by accepting that and understanding what kind of world you live in can you better be able to become proactive and function in society.

That's certainly a lot better option then becoming the scores of self-depreciating douchebags who can't reconcile their idealism and how adulthood didn't live up to what they envisioned and tend to follow the rest of the herd of sheeple and wait for their turn at the salt lick of Prozac and Xanax to get them through the day.



And your blatant insults and disregard without any backing is the very thing that makes YOUR disregard of "youthful idealism" sound just like another bitter adult who got his toys taken away and decided that if he can't have them, then no one can, and instead of trying to change the world, he spends the rest of his life just focusing on himself and his immediate circle.

Bitter? A little bit. But more grounded in reality and accepting of the world I've been provided to live is what I'd say I am. What's funny about your comment here is just how pitiful and reactive it is. I find it amusing that you think that because I can't change the world that I think nobody can. I think the world can be changed by individuals, but it is entirely random on who it is and what sort of improvement or detriment they contribute to society because people in our society don't function in a vacuum. People are affected by everything in their lives. That scientist researching advances in biomedicine through his research and experiments involve stem cells will lack the critical government or private funding it takes to continue his research because of the political climate in the country he lives in means he will never make that critical discovery of advancing medicine to the degree that he is fully capable of. Versus the guy who more than thirty years ago dropped out of college, went against all the advice and pleas from everyone in his life system decided to work on computers and revolutionized the world with his contributions through computer technology and the eventual invention of the internet.

That's the difference and the absolute importance between living in an ideal world and living in reality.

Its hard for people to accept the fact that they will most likely never be the latter person who makes that discovery that changes the way human society works because his circumstances and what he managed to do were affected by his individual life, the array of factors that played into it, and the own tools he developed through education and his remarkable intelligence. Its also hard for people to accept the failure of people in the former category because our current generation is drunk on positive media that says you are absolutely capable of doing anything in this world and that if you try hard enough you'll be successful at anything you do. Sorry, that privilege is afforded to a very small number of people in our society and it often has to do with the cards they were dealt from birth and eventually how they play them that determines how much of a contribution they make. It would also be a good time to realize that you will fail in many of the things that you do in life, but so will everybody else because if success were as easy as we were programmed to think it is, everybody would be successful. There would be no poverty, no crime, no disease and nothing else on the way down. But, there is in our real world and the only way you're going to get over that fact and move on with your life is to experience life, fail at something, and grow from it.

So no, I don't think youthful idealism is a good thing for our culture and there's a reason why so many people shift from that sort of thinking to a form of acceptance of reality. Because its normal. Its foolish to believe that YOU as a person, right here, right now is capable of making a decision at any moment that could advance or regress human society. You are not, and you won't. And the sooner you accept that and move on to actually live your life rather then being trapped in the world you envisioned or was built around you by hollywood glamour and false promises by your parents will you actually be able to do something for yourself and those around you.

Harsh lesson on reality, huh? Oh, and by the way, you're welcome (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRXKkUhe_B0).

[Revenant]

* Applaud* Excellently put and I have to agree. Think about our founding fathers. During a time where Monarchy was King (Literally), they decided that everyone should have a choice in what they believed in and took action upon it. I bet you that all other countries considered it Youthful Idealism as well. Though our system is going down the drain it is not the same system implemented by our founding fathers. It is a bugged update to that system. The bug being the banking system.

This is a very skewed view of the "Founding Fathers" and their intentions in breaking away to form an independent nation. For one thing, the "Founding Fathers" couldn't even agree on what a "human" was let alone agree on what to do with a nation. The United States is far from the first republic formed in the history of the world, and even that wasn't something they could agree on. The "Founding Fathers" couldn't even agree on whether or not they wanted to seceded from Great Britain.

What they did agree on was that they wanted their money. Our nation has always, always been a nation devoted to the idea of rich people getting to keep their money from the government. While there were intelligent individuals involved in the formation of the United States of America, there's nothing more noble about the idea of the "Founding Fathers" being more enlightened or more idealistic than today's politicians. To think anything else is just bad history.

[hoytti]

This is a very skewed view of the "Founding Fathers" and their intentions in breaking away to form an independent nation. For one thing, the "Founding Fathers" couldn't even agree on what a "human" was let alone agree on what to do with a nation. The United States is far from the first republic formed in the history of the world, and even that wasn't something they could agree on. The "Founding Fathers" couldn't even agree on whether or not they wanted to seceded from Great Britain.

What they did agree on was that they wanted their money. Our nation has always, always been a nation devoted to the idea of rich people getting to keep their money from the government. While there were intelligent individuals involved in the formation of the United States of America, there's nothing more noble about the idea of the "Founding Fathers" being more enlightened or more idealistic than today's politicians. To think anything else is just bad history.

* Applaud* Excellently put and I have to agree. Think about our founding fathers. During a time where Monarchy was King (Literally), they decided that everyone should have a choice in what they believed in and took action upon it.

I'm only a year out of high school and this is what it teaches us. If you have another theory take it up with the school system.

[hoytti]

Forgot about the "No Taxation Without Representation" reason. Even so they could not get a good government up without the bill of rights which has really been changed over the years. As I've said before, this current system is nothing more then a bugged (or maybe hacked) update to the system.

[SirArtemis]

Vigil, this conversation between you and I would take ages and I don't want to get into a flame fest with you because honestly I hold nothing against you personally. I have two things. One is a video to share with you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U)

Now, first, that video is not a counter to anything. It just enunciates how much better our education can be.

The second thing is to say that I believe we are arguing about different things. I distinguish idealism as having a view in your mind of a world that could be a better place for all and some of the ways you envision that. For example, you could see a world where no one starves, where no one is homeless, where everyone who wants an education can have one, where medicine is accessible by all, and so forth. However, I can claim to be an idealistic, yet simultaneously cynical realist. I can imagine a glorious and beautiful world that has some of the things I mentioned, but I'm also fully aware that realistically that will not happen anytime in the near future, especially on a global scale. In fact, it may never happen - we may very well commit racial suicide before that time comes. Realistically speaking, I can't fix all of these things, but you can be a realist and idealist simultaneously. You can fantasize about this ideal world and pick ONE particular area to focus on. You could focus on... food for example. And then you could choose a route to approach that. Do you want to go into bioengineering? Do you want to go into environmental economics? Do you want to go into international finance and currency exchange? Do you want to go into operations management? That doesn't take away idealism, and perhaps that is what you meant by "youthful" and if so I apologize for my harsh response. I'm just very sensitive to people bashing idealism.

For me, I am an idealist. But I also think the world is crap. I'm disappointed in humanity. My personal view on how I could realistically change the world is the following: get a full time job, get some finances/experience, go back for a master's degree, then apply to a Ph.D. program, become a professor, and perform research and teach to help disseminate new and useful information to the world as well as promote critical thinking. Am I an idealist? Yes. Am I realistic? I think so. Maybe it's just a balance.

[Sagequeen]

Problem with most people these days is they're caught up in how the world 'should be' and calling that reality instead of understanding how the world is and working off that premise.

Yep. We're at war. Yep. We're broke. Yep. We're trading freedom for security, and receiving neither. And yep to a damn lot of other things.

Nuff said.

Now, back to my cereal.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/030/404/1260585284155.png?1318992465

[Duffy]

I have to ask, before wading in with a longer, more thought out reply (devoid of attempts to derail or drunken sarcasm I assure you)...

Do you think the 'bad education system' is the sole responsible party for the lack of education you perceive American kids to possess? (A general question to anyone who wishes to reply, as much as to any who've already commented on it). I think you're assuming the education system is supposed to be a blanket method to improve upon knowledge, and forgetting that education very much begins at home. If anything, parents and communities and families are as much, if not more to blame for shortening in their child's knowledge and skill-set than schools.

[hoytti]

I have to agree that there are some parents/guardians that have put all the education on the schools, (especially foreigners who will not speak English in their homes)

[Vigil]

Pretty much, Duffy. I've rarely thought of education as being infalliable, but a lot of our problem stems from overprotective or over-involved parents using the system to regulate what teachers do for their kids in the classroom. Personally, I believe family forms the strongest bond with an individual then any institution, private or government, can hope to create. And that's the sad part. Parents, in a way, are trying to use teachers as secondary parents in order to pawn their mistakes off on somebody else and also because American culture is very individualistic. Its a huge, huge problem to get parents to actually parent rather then work or find themselves because they think they deserve it.

I think our education system can improve, yes, but I don't think it solves our bigger problems or is our only source for knowledge. I say this as somebody whose shopping for doctoral programs right now, but really unless you're going into a really specialized area with higher education, it really isn't necessary as a lot of propaganda makes it out to be. Blue collar work in the United States pays really well. Better then most white collar jobs and they get to keep their dignity.

[Sagequeen]

The problem is the fear of a child actually failing.

Thaynes forbid a child fall short and learn something from it. That might hurt his or her self esteem. The blame rests on all parties involved in the education of a child.



Edit: as for the large image earlier... sometimes I preach cereal box-style and post that to show I'm not taking myself too seriously. <3

[TheOnlyGhost]

I wonder if America would be better off if:

A: We had a monarchy (like England)

or ...

B: A female president

My guess it's C: Neither ... something else has to change. Thomas Jefferson was a god! May he rest in peace :/ .... shame there are no more good people in this world that have enough money and balls to rule and fix things without getting killed anymore. Sad, sad, sad.

[Sagequeen]

A. ^^ We... declared... independence... from... a... monarchy...

B. People don't understand the importance of gender anymore. Blame the feminists if you like.

C. And yes. Something has to change... sorry, but while money buys a hell of a lot, the kind of change we need comes from the ground up, not from the money down.

[Amen]

What would a lady president do different from a dude president?

[Revenant]

What would a lady president do different from a dude president?

Urinate

[Silence Sei]

I wonder if America would be better off if:

A: We had a monarchy (like England)



England doesn't have a true monarchy anymore. They have parliment. The Queen has no real power, if I'm not mistaken.



or ...

B: A female president

A gender shouldn't really matter for a leader. Look at at this first before you think a female leader would be so different from male leaders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranavalona_I).

Long story short, the country doesn't need 'fixing', it just needs more people putting forth the effort in to make it better than what some people today are showing.

Look at the Great Depression. Exactly -how- many people started 'occupy'-like movements in order to try and make a change and get the jobs back? Very few, because people were more focused on finding jobs, and feeding their families back then. A lot of people now days have graduated colleges with the mentality that they 'deserve' a well-paying job because they now have degrees. Basically, equip you some elbow grease, get out in the sun, and ear your keep like people used to; fifteen miles both ways in the snow with a wounded ankle.

[Max Dirks]

Favorite quote from my favorite athlete:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wIm_41OIOM

[Duffy]

We haven't had a true ruling monarch for over 200 years...

Now I'm worried about your education system :p.

[Sagequeen]

^^

:) I misspoke when I used the term very loosely. The colonies didn't have true representation in the Parliament, and that is a big difference.

[TheOnlyGhost]

I wonder if there is any truth at all in this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A

comments?

[Vigil]

I wonder if there is any truth at all in this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A

comments?

No. Go outside.

[Duffy]

It’s funny; capitalism is as much a boon as it is a curse. The very thing that constrains society, the thing that oppresses, separates, and estranges vast swathes of culture is the one thing that vindicates, liberates, and frees us. Without it, we would not be free to work, earn, and luck our way into fame, fortune, and power. Without it, a man without birth right would not be able to become a god amongst his fellow man.

Any system, any at all, that man can devise in heaven or in hell is prone to corruption. Our very nature prevents, nay, forbids us from constructing a society immune to this, short of genetic engineering, drugs, and Equilibrium type brainwashing. It is, sadly, and in many ways gladly part of what makes the human spirit and identity so interesting (at least to me, a budding social graduate with an overactive imagination).

Some of the comments in this thread echo the general spirit of, well, the world. Difficult financial circumstances affect everyone, all the time, wherever they live. Whilst ‘The Recession’ has heightened that sense of estrangement that border between the rich and the poor nothing at its core has changed. People are still poor, and people are still rich. Unemployment is still far too high, and wages are far too low (or where either is ‘normative’, they should not be because of inflation – referring of course to bankers, professionals, government officials, and of course, celebrity sports personalities).

America is undergoing a difficult time, and has been for a decade or so, but not because it’s (to quote Artemis) ‘full of stupid’, or because it’s failing in any way. It’s undergoing a difficult time because it has to come to terms with its exegesis of form. For once, in the last fifty years, other countries outstrip it in terms of political, military, and financial power. China, Russia, and I daresay India are all on the verge of reaching the same superpower status America had uncontested in the post Second World War period. The difference between the two is that European countries started at the bottom, and rose, America is finding that starting at the top naturally means one thing…

It means a very sudden drop.

Look back through history and you’ll find similar stories wherever you go. Mighty civilisations rise, and undoubtedly have to fall, in order for lessons of a sort to be learnt and for humanity to instigate its greatest achievement – population control. The Inca, the Mayan, the Egyptian, the Roman, and more recently, the British Empires all collapsed under the weight of their own expanse. Reach too far, stretch too thin, and no matter how perfect your citizens and systems are, it all comes tumbling down. The British Empire had a fantastic pre-Victorian education system (despite it’s class-centric and gender biased nature), and the Romans were the pioneers of a huge amount of the modern inventions that make our lives bearable. Despite all that, where are they now?

I don’t mean to sound pious, and perhaps my experience of the world is very much different because of cultural and regional variations, but all the problems Americans tout as ‘the greatest shame of society’ have happened, or are happening to every other culture on earth. Poverty, education, and politics are under immense strain in the European Union right now – Greece has been on the near verge of simply ceasing to exist as a country for three years now, and the NHS, the self-proclaimed welfare state beacon of light cannot continue for much longer without radical reform, and turbulent upheaval.

I’m sorry to say, America, but everyone else has been suffering more for a long time. You’re going to have to pull the pieces together, realise that life can’t be peachy forever, and buck up your ideas. You’re not alone, though you are one of the few countries were prosperity is within any man’s reach. You have one of the most diverse, effluent, and wondrous cultures in the world. You have contributed immensely to all academic and vocational fields. You remain a dominant world presence on all fronts, and people still want to travel to your country for all its wonders.

It’s a Global Recession, so stop throwing toys out of your pram, and help to make life better for yourselves. You’re enslaved to nothing but your own arrogance, ignorance, and sense of self-importance.

/end rant.


EDIT: Vigil said what I wanted to say in three words, instead of an essay - damnit!

[TheOnlyGhost]

More info:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI-BIVWlc7A

Not sure about this guy though, but still interesting.