Idea #2 ... compare this to Helios and I'll choose which one to do :D

[TheOnlyGhost]

Setting: A small planet that is over 90% of nothing but forest...

http://th03.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2010/256/0/d/green_planet_by_huglebunnys-d2yms5q.jpg

Inhabitants: Lack of technology like here on Earth, yet the people are extremely civilized and full of good heart. Everything food related and shelter related is shared and equal.

Transportation methods: Walking/running ... horseback ... future transportation found in forest possible.

Weapons of the trade: Bow and arrows (sometimes with poison tips) ... crossbows, knifes, small swords, leather/studded armor only.

Plot: The inhabitants of the planet help a nearby planet of civilized aliens by teaching them how to survive on the forest planet and help each other out living as a huge "community" of different species. These aliens greatly respect the humans (that's the race I will use on the forest planet) and return the favor of gratitude with food, water, and any supplies but refuse to give their own technology for risk of self-destruction that was witnessed 3500 years ago on a planet 80 light years away (Earth). Many years of prosperity go by until one of the aliens get a parasite from the forest that has never been discovered yet (a new species, the first of it's kind) ... it takes control of the alien ... and as the infected host/alien are in a line up with the non infected aliens while the chief (leader) of the forest planet gives them supplies and their teachings...

The infected alien seems to shoot the chief in the head, yet the people that witnessed it only saw the back of the chief so it was hard to make 100% certain that the chief was actually struck and most likely dead from the shot. The infected alien takes the chief to the massive forest and brings it back to where the parasite originated from ... eventually killing the host alien, the parasite leaves it's host and takes control of one of the forest beings to protect it's pray (the cheif) ... the inhabitants of the forest planet, who never entered the forest since everyone that had gone in there had perished, are forced to go in for the first time to save the cheif, assuming he is even alive, and to kill the parasite freeing them from it's future clutches.

Many new species and dangers are discovered in the forest and they have to adapt quickly.

What do you think?

[Ihime]

This sort of communism doesn't actually work without a significantly different revision of how communications and social structures work, because someone who cheats the system has more to gain and power naturally collects in fewer hands. Additionally, the basis of civilization comes from increased per capita efficiencies at providing basic living needs such as food, water, and shelter; increased efficiencies come from improved technology. So, a lack of technology implied in your hunter-gatherer communistic society would stop civilization from developing because the workload to provide basic needs would prevent time from being freed up for labor specialization, which is where civilization comes from. Remember that things like agriculture is also a type of technology.

Additionally for the plot, how are you going to help a nearby planet when you lack the technology to reach the nearby planet? You're trying to do primitive and spacefaring at the same time.

[Devonus]

I think wiz is a debby downer.

[Zook Murnig]

He has a lot of really good points, though. A fantasy world needs to work, or else it's just half-assed fanfiction. Or Twilight.

[Devonus]

oh i agree, the only thing is he doesnt' offer any solutions, only whats wrong with it.

[Mordelain]

So, explain demons, dark elves that still use steam but have guns...

Fantasy has a grounding in reality, it does not live exclusively by it's rules.

Communism as an ideal is politically flawless...add Earth humans, on the other hand, and you're bound for trouble. As far as ideas go, Ghost, Helios in form with the structure of the second would be a good place to work from.

[Slayer of the Rot]

So you can turn a bowl of chocolate pudding into model with E-cups with magic, but you can't go to an entirely different world?

Who gives a fuck about the how-to getting there. Magic for fuck's sakes, its the old fall back.

[Zook Murnig]

But at what point to you stop saying "it's magic" and actually have a society deal with its problems? And where did they learn all this magic? And what powers it?

Trust me, I'm all for the "it's magic" answer, but just saying that it's magic and leaving it at that is just a big a pitfall as ignoring the problem to begin with. It's better to say "it's magic" and then go into how that affects the social structure, where the energy comes from, what potential supply problems could arise, etc. That makes the setting interesting. If everything is solved by "magic" with no consequences, then there's no room for adventures and heroes and struggles.

[Slayer of the Rot]

I have no bloody idea what you're talking about. What I was talking about was getting to this place, since someone said something about "space-faring" being a problem. I mean, Caden Law sucked the life out of a forest and nuked someone with it. The right person can just move you from here to there regardless of distance and dimension.

Actually I don't even know what this thing is about, this planet or whatever. It just struck me that someone worried about travel in a fantasy setting. Carry on, ladies and gents.

[TheOnlyGhost]

As far as ideas go, Ghost, Helios in form with the structure of the second would be a good place to work from.



How do you mean?

[Ihime]

"Sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology."

The thing is that I run by the broader definition of technology as any knowledge that expands the capabilities of the society. Therefore, magic is also a technology. It doesn't matter if you lift the water from the well using buckets & pulleys or you lift it using the East Spirit of Water Lifting. Just because it's not in the recognizable Earth form doesn't mean that it won't have the same effects on society.

You want to remove guns and keep people to bows and arrows? That won't work if someone invents the Wand-That-Goes-Bang-And-Kills-People (presumably invented by someone who is bad at naming things).

You want to keep people from having interior plumbing and central heating? That won't work if someone invents the Fireplace-That-Traps-Fire-Elementals or the Bucket-That-Empties-Itself or the Everfull-Tub-Of-Clean-Water.

Basically, if you answer "magic" to things, then you're going to end up with a technological society that happens to use different physics to pursue the same comforts, conveniences, weapons, and similar goals as Earth humans do.

Answering "magic" doesn't really work if it does not hold up to the scrutiny of all the characters asking "why?" and "how?" They have had tens of thousands of years to take the system apart, study it, and create useful applications for it. Consider, for example, if you say that "You can get to the other planet using magic."

Is it teleportation? If it's teleportation, then you should be able to apply the same techniques on a smaller scale to travel across the same planet. If not, why not? If so, why isn't this the dominant form of transportation? And do the reasons prevent it from being the dominant form apply to interplanetary travel? If it's a simple enough and above all reliable enough magic to do interplanetary travel on the sort of scales that we're considering here, then at the intraplanetary scale we're talking about an entire planet full of teleporters who use it for casual travel. The distances and uncertainties are so very much smaller.

Is it flying? If it's flying, then you should be able to apply the same techniques on a smaller scale and produce a society where flying is the norm, since it's reliable and accessible enough to do much larger travel. You would have all sorts of things defying gravity. Additionally, there are necessary secondary magics (a term that's really interchangeable with technologies) such as radiation shielding, life support, pressure containment, zero-gravity medicine, and everything needed to support spaceflight.

If, however, you take the "easy" way out and say that it works only for interplanetary travel, then it creates a hole that is difficult for the suspension of disbelief to bridge, at least for anyone with even a slightly analytical mind. This is the equivalent of suggesting that a society knows how to build moon rockets but not passenger aircraft. Or that someone knows how to do calculus but not addition.

Addendum: Steam and guns coexisted for several hundred years. I don't see the issue with "still use steam but have guns".

Addendum: The whole idea that primitive people "live in harmony" with their environment is bollocks made up during a period of revisionism. Not even animals "live in balance with nature." They are forced into certain behaviors and population numbers by resource starvation.

[Silence Sei]

See what you did, Ghost? This is why we can't have nice things.

Because Zook argues them to death. : P

[Zook Murnig]

I said one, maybe two, things. It was all Absentwizard. I am not Absentwizard. I am a wizard who is, clearly, present. As evidenced by my imminent presence.

[Slayer of the Rot]

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Holy shit. What? What happened to just saying "a wizard did it"? I can understand the whole argument of it looks like magic only because we can't understand it, but I don't always like how that takes all the fun out of it for me. Kinda like looking at a vagina and then explaining every minute detail of what it all is and how it works and then staring at it baffled and horrified. It's great to know how something works but it takes all the mystery out of it, especially with what we do. Every time I fire Dan's gun I could describe how the primer is ignited and the bullet is propelled and so on, or I could describe the patterns the teeth and blood make. There's only so much a person will drag reading through and remain entertained. Some times too much is bad, loike someone way back that explained a citadel arena down to the clods of dirt.

All I'm saying is we can have fun with it and write or we can put on our graduation caps and bifocals and write a 35 paragraph monstrosity.

[Devonus]

I say all those arguing in describing this all realisticly and indepthly step away from the computer and go outside! out there everything is nice and scientific and supported by each other and grounded in fact, cause and effect, etc etc, so if thats what you want, step outside!

[Ihime]

"A wizard did it" only works if nobody has any ability or reason to actually look at the wizard who is doing it and try to repeat the same thing. When that happens, it must either be detailed out or it will fall apart. Per the vagina example, one needs to know how the thing functions or a lot of physiological considerations go out the window, like what happens in badly-written lemons. It doesn't need to be written out in the story itself, but the understanding must be there. Similarly with Dan's gun, one doesn't need to describe it each time or even at all, but how it works must be in the notes somewhere for it to work consistently and reasonably. You are making the mistake of confusing "having notes on how something works" with "putting the notes into the story as an info dump".

The reason that these notes are necessary is because this thread is proposing a setting. If anyone is to write it, there must be a certain amount of information published for it. Consider what happens if you say that it is easy to make a magic portal between the world and ONLY between those two places because of some reason. That's fine, but you also have to take consideration the potential uses for it OTHER than what you had intended for the story. Waste disposal. Gas balancing. Illumination (if it's night at one end and day at the other). The list goes on.

It is a bad idea to think of these things while writing the story because quite often your judgement is clouded and all the pieces that you come up with spur-of-moment for some specific purpose turn out to not fit together if you think about it. It'll all be shambles. The key is consistency.

[Mordelain]

Oops, sorry Ghost, missed this.

I meant keep this idea, but use the name from the first - i.e, call it Helios.