Powerful Creatures of Althanas

[Chidori Draconid]

These are the oldest and most powerful dragons; anyone less than level ten should be changing their underwear after seeing one of these.

NOTE: This is about all powerful creatures of Althanas, but I'm going to use dragons because they're more relevant to my character

I read that on the new Materials List and I kinda cringed. Don't get me wrong. I don't think a level 0 should have something that strong, but I've been reading quests where characters have faced dragons and this statement seems to reflect that a level zero character cannot servive against a dragon much less defeat one without some serious powergaming. This worries me for two reasons.

1. The majority of the players here won't even make it to level ten, and it takes quite a while for those who do. So are we supposed to limit ourselves creatively until then?

2. My character's father is the God of Dragons, so he's kinda pronte to dragon encounters. I have plans for him to face a few, so am I going to get horrible scores from a judge because I survived against and/or defeated one?

I understand that a dragon is a formidable animal, more formidable than any animal that we have in the real world, but it's still an animal. I'll use the late Steve Irwin as an example (rest in peace). He went face to face with many dangerous creatures more powerful and dangerous than himself and held his own. There's no training a crocodile. He didn't survive against those animals because he had extra special abilities equivilant to a level ten on Althanas. His death certainly proved that. He survived because he had the right knowledge to work with and around them.

Has anyone seen Real Dragons, the Discovery Channel documentary narrated by Patrick Stewart? They treated dragons like normal animals, and showed how a mere man that any level 0 could take survived against a dragon.

It just seems to me that if a level 0 introduces a dragon into his/her quest they're pretty much screwed with the judgement because the given of the prof is that "Level 0's can't take them." But defeating a dragon or any powerful creature is more of a matter of strategy and realism, not power. I'm done lecturing. I just need some reassurance that I'm not going to get screwed because my character has the knowledge to defeat such a powerful creature.

[Ashiakin]

I don't know where you got that from, but it seems like Sighter was talking about a specific type of dragon... Not all dragons on Althanas. I always operate on the assumption that all NPCs (yes, even creatures like dragons) have levels. So I think a level 0 human and a level 0 dragon should be about even in a fight, whereas a level 0 human would get toasted by a level 10 dragon.

Edit: Oops, you said the Materials List. That's what I get for skimming. I'll post or edit after I actually read it.

[Alexander]

Dargons are much more than mere animals. They have more intellect and power than most characters will ever have and it's assumed that all of them, at least the older ones, have amassed a huge amount of wealth. It's not unknown of dragons to even hire mercs to help in a battle against someone they fear.

If you're level 0, then you are just starting out field experience wise. The only dragon you could ever hope of killing is one also just starting out, a hatchling, a whelp. The big ones almost know what you're going to do before YOU do it. If you plan on taking on a dragon, be it a whelp or an older one, you need to prepare. Sometimes that preparation means leveling up.

Unless you want to take on a certain dragon, then it just depends.

[Chidori Draconid]

I have to disagree. Not all dragons in mythology are intelligent beings. D&D, Beowolf, and many other myths demonstrate such. I plan on featuring both smart and primative dragons in my quests, but just like Humans, Elves, and any other setient race they're still animals.

All dragons, including intelligent ones, should be defeatable by a level 0. Luck and circumstance would play a major role, but I still think it's possible.

[Alexander]

But unlike Humans, elves and any other sentient race they can do things that the other races cannot, even if they're stupid. Size would be a factor as well. The primitive dragons are next to gone, evolved like every other sentient race, into the smarter, more dangerous ones.

And the myths that depict dragons as un-intelligent doesnt mean that they weren't. Dragons don't always act smart. Most won't chat with you before you're eaten.

[Letho]

I don't know. I always liked the fact that dragons are so fucking powerful that they make you fill your shorts on lower levels. I can't say that it's realistic since dragons aren't real, but if they were real, they would be real juggernauts of power. However, that doesn't mean that a lv0 can't defeat one. But you'd have to have a good fucking tactic to assure me that your lv0 managed to defeat a full grown dragon.

There are always other ways to deal with dragons until you're on a high enough level to defeat them. First is, don't fucking fight them. Dragons aren't bloodthirsty animals that devour everything in their vicinity. As Alexander said, they are intelligent and wise and probably won't come at you if you don't provoke them. Another is to get some NPCs to help you in dealing with them. And another is to set up the situation in such a manner that it makes it easier for you to defeat them. I remember, I was lv5 or so when I killed a dragon in Haidia, but I made it so that it was a vampyric dragon that went crazy from the lack of feeding, so he came at Letho in a suicidal flyby and killed itself.

My point is, no matter what level you are, there are always ways to deal with any opponents, dragons included.

[Artifex Felicis]

Well, what you quoted in itself answered your own thing.

"These are the oldest and most powerful dragons"

Though, People less than level 10 have taken them. I remember one such thread where one of them was eaten, but cut open their neck with a sword while being swallowed. Like Hercules in the Disney Movie. Really if a level 0 went up against a dragon with a huge treasure horde, then without any really clever ricks that would outsmart a sentient, nigh immortal beast would get docked quite a bit.

Really, you shoulden't use extremes, rather weak or strong, to limit creativity, or just make a little note saying how the dragon's just arrogant or something if you want to make it seem like he's super strong. Don't need to use a cannon to kill a rabbit. Unless it's B level movie horror size, but eh. Size really doesn't matter with Magic. Leon's had his ass handed to him by things smaller than his leg on a few occasions.

[Alexander]

It's not about killing the dragon, it's also about getting a good score in the process. Don't do something your character won't do. Slicing a dragon's throat open while you go down is a good idea, but if you're a frail type character, you'd probably get chewed up and crushed under the pressure before you do that. But if not, if your character isn't the type to kill something that way, then think of another way.

[Chidori Draconid]

The primitive dragons are next to gone,Like I said before I'm going to feature both smart and primative dragons, but where in the Althanas cannon has that been stated?

But you'd have to have a good fucking tactic to assure me that your lv0 managed to defeat a full grown dragon.
That's all I needed. Because I do have tactics, some of which you've already mentioned. Because of Chidori's origin he has extensive knowledge of dragon biology and behavior. A few examples would be...
Some of the larger dragons would have small areas where their scalles haven't been toughened by weather or the ground, so they're slightly softer than the rest of the body... Dragons have to inhale before they release their fire breath, and when they do release it some of the more cautious ones narrow or even close their eyes... One of their only true weak points is their mouth when it's wide open.

There's much more where that came from. Properly utilizing knowledge like this would make facing a dragon practical and possible even for a level 0.

[Alexander]

Like I said before I'm going to feature both smart and primative dragons, but where in the Althanas cannon has that been stated?


It hasn't. But I don't remember reading a quest about a team going and destroying the lair of a primitive dragon. I admit that it doesn't mean that they don't exist, I just don't remember anyone mentioning them. They evolve and learn like any other race, and they've been around longer.

None of use are saying that a level 0 has no earthly chance of defeating a dragon, we're just saying that it's VERY highly unlikely.

[Letho]

That's all I needed. Because I do have tactics, some of which you've already mentioned. Because of Chidori's origin he has extensive knowledge of dragon biology and behavior. A few examples would be...
Some of the larger dragons would have small areas where their scalles haven't been toughened by weather or the ground, so they're slightly softer than the rest of the body... Dragons have to inhale before they release their fire breath, and when they do release it some of the more cautious ones narrow or even close their eyes... One of their only true weak points is their mouth when it's wide open.

There's much more where that came from. Properly utilizing knowledge like this would make facing a dragon practical and possible even for a level 0.Yeah, but honestly speaking, utilizing the knowledge is almost as hard as getting into a position to utilize it. And it's really hard for any character, regardless of a level, to even get to face a dragon and get close enough to do some serious harm. With heightened senses, unlimited power and predatory insticts that dragons usually have (amongst other things), it's hard to get close enough to shoot something into his mouth. ;)

Although, I fucking love the movie Reign of Fire. :D

[Sighter Tnailog]

Let me explain something.

The descriptions of the "Dragons" in the Materials list are intended as guidelines, not hard-and-fast rules.

Leopold Stevens is level 7 (or is it 8? I forget.) but when it comes to "power level," he's on par with some of Althanas' level twos. Can he defeat a dragon? Sure. Can that level 2 defeat a dragon? Sure.

It all depends on how you frame it. If you defeat the dragon with a cunning strategy, involving trickery and so forth, that's cool. Nobody faulted Harry Potter for defeating a dragon with his broomstick. But if you stand face to face with a dragon and have an all-out battle of brawn, you damn well better have a storyline reason for why it worked -- or a significant power level.

However, Chidori makes a good point. I will remove references to level numbers on the dragons in the materials list.

EDIT: Actually, I won't. Upon reviewing the thread, I have the following observation.

What was said was NOT "you absolutely cannot fight a dragon at a certain level." Rather, what was said was merely a description of how powerful dragons are. Nobody says "You cannot fight a level 10 character." They may advise against it, but no rule prevents fighting them -- and reaping the rewards should you win.

These level descriptions will stay the same. They do not say "cannot fight." They say "be warned."

[Letho]

Nobody faulted Harry Potter for defeating a dragon with his broomstick.No, but it was still lame. :P

[Alexander]

The broomstick didn't defeat the dragon, the dragon's failure to notice the huge stone bridge it flew into stopped him. Harry was running for his dear life. He had no plan.

Anyways, I'm getting off topic. Dragons are, by default, one of the strongest creatures in existance. There. 'Nuff said.

[Cyrus the virus]

Eh, I'm of the opinion that dragons are epic creatures that shouldn't be toyed with, but that doesn't mean they can't be fought and won against. There'll be a time in the future where Izvilvin must lead a group of people to fight Glimmerfang, the most powerful dragon evar!!! This is a dragon that ruled as a tyrant long ago, and whose treasure horde rivals Scara Brae in size.

So... It'll be tough.

On topic, though, nobody should complain about a level 0 fighting a dragon, even though a few of us might not like it too much. Nobody has the right to question someone else's quests, at least in that manner.

If a level 0 fights a dragon and wins, there'll be consequences in the judging if there was powergaming or anything like that. So if a level 0 character can beat a dragon with his clevernessity, good for him.

Roleplaying it'd be a little tough though.

[Breaker]

I could be wrong in saying this, but I'd estimate that for a level 0-2 character to be rewarded with dragon hide, dragon bone, dragon horn, or a treasure the size of a dragon's hoard, they'd have to get a score of around 90. Again, I could be wrong in saying this (I'll leave it up to the mods to confirm or dispell said theory) but I'd say that going after a dragon for spoils at a low level is pretty pointless.

At the same time, I think killing a dragon would be a major accomplishment for a low level character, and would make an excellent addition to anyone's storyline. I can just imagine some level 0 leaving Scara Brae, then coming back a few months later (IC) and being all "yeah, I killed a dragon. It was fun, yo." Maybe dragonslaying could be a way of earning yourself a title or reputation on Althanas, or in the region in which the dragon resided.

In the end, I think anyone at all who wants to try killing a dragon can go for it. If you can make it seem real and practical that your character WOULD have actually succeeded in slaying the dragon, then I want to read your quest, because it must have awesome strategy, and I like awesome strategy.


EDIT: Alexander, dude, there WAS no bridge in the book. That was something they added into the movie so they could have an exploding bridge. But I agree with Letho on this one... it was lame.

[Serilliant]

I could be wrong in saying this, but I'd estimate that for a level 0-2 character to be rewarded with dragon hide, dragon bone, dragon horn, or a treasure the size of a dragon's hoard, they'd have to get a score of around 90. Again, I could be wrong in saying this (I'll leave it up to the mods to confirm or dispell said theory) but I'd say that going after a dragon for spoils at a low level is pretty pointless.
Not necessarily. When spoils are rewarded, there are three things considered:

1. Was the thread of an acceptable level of quality to justify the strength/value of the item?
2. Was the item justifiably earned in the story? (i.e. if you have a thread 10 posts long about talking to a dwarf and suddenly say you win dragonscale at the end, that really doesn't fit)
3. Is the item appropriate for the character considering balance?

If all three criteria are met, then the item is awarded. However, if something is amiss, it does not necessarily mean that the requested spoil will be denied. The judge could easily say something like, "due to your skill in skinning, you only obtained enough scale to make a chestplate" or "the dragon was so old that its scale is only as strong as dehlar" or something. As things considered, we're quite flexible when it comes to giving spoils, we just have to make sure it was earned and is appropriate. If you're at level 0 and want to tackle a dragon and have a creative way of going about it, go for it. Your limitations are not based on the number below your name; it's all about how clever you can be in your prose.

[Sighter Tnailog]

Just so everyone knows, when considering the rewarding of spoils, the score is the very last thing I consider. First and foremost, I think of the story -- was the spoil justified by the story? If the answer is no, then the thread probably wasn't very good anyway. If the answer is yes, then the writer probably knows what he or she is doing and deserves the reward. Story justification is a whole lot better as a measure of quality than any score ever will be.

[Breaker]

Ah ok, thanks for the clarification. My one remaining concern in this is that I can't see any judge deeming dragonscale, for example, appropriate for a level 0 character. Also, (this is a personal opinion, but I feel it's valid) I've never liked the idea of moderators "downsizing" a person's spoils. Personally, when I go for spoils, I request what I want. Unless this rule has been changed since I last got spoils in a quest which was, admittably, awhile ago, spoils significantly reduce the EXP received. Therefore, if someone requests a prevaldia sword, and then the mod says "actually, it was just an iron sword painted blue" then the person receives something which they either already have, don't want, or could easily obtain in other ways. I think it would be better if the mod just made the decision of whether they deserve the spoil, and award it, or not.

... I'm sorry for getting a little bit off track there... I just wanted to put my two cents in.

[Sighter Tnailog]

I think that makes some sense, although if you only wanted prevalida for the color, you missed the point.

[Dissinger]

Well, what you quoted in itself answered your own thing.

"These are the oldest and most powerful dragons"

Though, People less than level 10 have taken them. I remember one such thread where one of them was eaten, but cut open their neck with a sword while being swallowed. Like Hercules in the Disney Movie.

Actually she shoved it throught the roof of its mouth and into the brain, but thats another story.

Most of the dragons I've faced have been vampyric dragons, which in turn begin to rot and decay until they go completely crazy and get themselves killed. Then again, I've only faced three two on Seth (One of which I had Damon Kaosi to help, and the other was actually non-vampiric and an over 100 post quest.), one on Sarah (Which was vampyric and ended up dying with the help of Showstopper now Fedix Alberdyne or whateber the hell Corin is called...).

[Breaker]

I think that makes some sense, although if you only wanted prevalida for the color, you missed the point.
It wasn't for the color... that was just an example of how a moderator could downsize someone's spoil but not alter what happened in their quest.

[Storm Veritas]

So, to summarize:

Dragons are wicked strong. Don't pussify them, and don't be an asshole and powergame kill them.

Got it.

[Godhand]

It's not unknown of dragons to even hire mercs to help in a battle against someone they fear.

What?

[Bohemia]

It's not unknown of dragons to even hire mercs to help in a battle against someone they fear.

I smell government certified retarded.

[Seth_Rahl]

So do I. Dragons hiring mercs? Only on kids tv shows.

[Sorahn]

The way I've always looked at it is dragons grow in size in power as they grow older, just like any race. The only difference is dragons grow to be ancient. So a dragon that's young is relatively small and weak (relative to other dragons... he's still pretty dang strong) but this is the kind of dragon that a level 0 or so could take on. When you get to the dragons that are hundreds of years old, I picture them as being large enough to pick up a semi truck or two and take them with it. That's pretty dang big. This is the kind of dragon that will give you the dragon hide where you got that quote. Ancient dragon hide is much harder and stronger, but comes from ancient dragons, which are much bigger and stronger. Thus the increase in armor quality is justified.

For those who don't know, Sorahn actually has a dragon familiar. He rides it around and it's pretty awesome, if I do say so myself. And it was approved by the mods and all that proper stuff. If dragons are so huge and powerful, how did I get it approved, you ask? Because he's not. My dragon is a young one. He started out very small, as dragons go, and is growing and maturing. By now he's gotten to the point where he's getting fairly formidable, and I'd say a level 0 would have a relatively difficult time defeating him, but then again, a level 0 would also have a relatively difficult time defeating Sorahn himself, so it's all in perspective.

So long story short, yes you can defeat dragons, as long as you don't say he was the size of a mountain and you "zomg totally jumped up and pwnz0red him in teh face!!!11lol". Make it a tough battle, make it interesting, and impress the mods and I think you can take on some pretty big boys, but not huge ancient dragons. To me, the huge ancient dragons it's like no matter how strong you are you're aren't going to stop one by yourself.

The strongest men in the world can lift small Hyundais. I can't. But no matter how strong the strongest men are, they can't stop a semi truck that's flying at them at 80 mph. Certain things are just not possible. Doing said things is powergaming. And that's where the confusion comes from.

So kill Hyundais.

[Bleater]

So do I. Dragons hiring mercs? Only on kids tv shows.

Honestly, the wording seems problematic, but the core idea I don't see as that far fetched.

Big, powerful, almost omnipotent beings employing weaker beings to do their bidding and dirty work is actually rather frequent in fantasy. How many times has an all-powerful wizard had familiars or lackeys that did their mundane work or troublesome tasks for them? How many times have there been great conquerer warlords that employ henchmen and bodyguards? Even supernatural beings, like elder vampires have been known to utilize "blood dolls" and human servants to do their bidding. Sometimes it's monetary reward, but there are lots of things greater beings can use to tempt others into their service. Promises of power, or even keeping them captive with threats and fear.

Seeing as how these vastly powerful and intelligent beings can do it, I don't see why it's such a stretch for a dragon.

Let me give a practical example:

A dragon knows a hero is out to find a weapon that guarantees his death. He wants the hero dead, but the hero's in a major town. Now, the dragon could attack the town, but he knows there's a chance that the militia in the town could collectively dispatch him. So one day he finds a thief trying to raid his horde and decides to barter not eating the unsavory character in exchange for him going into town and trying to kill the hero...

Seems like something I could feasibly see (as a matter of fact, I'm almost certain that hypothetical comes to mind because I *have* seen it before...)

[Godhand]

A dragon knows a hero is out to find a weapon that guarantees his death. He wants the hero dead, but the hero's in a major town. Now, the dragon could attack the town, but he knows there's a chance that the militia in the town could collectively dispatch him. So one day he finds a thief trying to raid his horde and decides to barter not eating the unsavory character in exchange for him going into town and trying to kill the hero...

What?

[Sighter Tnailog]

I think dragons are dumb beasts that should be hunted down and eliminated, Eragon notwithstanding. If I ever write one into one of my storylines and it's actually not just a dumb brute blowing fire, I'll make sure my analysis of its psyche and character mirrors the portrayals found LeGuin's Earthsea stuff or Tolkienic dragons -- ideas which are either coolly sublime or classically accepted.

On another note, though -- why did we have to resurrect this thread in the first place?

[Red Lightning]

No idea. But I see your point Bleater. And Godhand, just nod your head and be like "I get it now!"

I never saw Dragons as dumb mindless brutes. Even Smaug from the Hobbit was intelligent in his own degree, even though his own greed and ego pwned him in the end. I always thought that dragons who could turn into humans via polymorph was awesome. I mean, imagine meeting Bahamut in the street. "Yo dawg!" "Actually, I'm a dragon, but hello to you too." *chuckles* And yes, I know i'm the only one who found that funny. Anyhow, I always thought that Wyverns were the mindless brutes, except for one in this old book who was half drake as well.

[Godhand]

No idea. But I see your point Bleater. And Godhand, just nod your head and be like "I get it now!"

I never saw Dragons as dumb mindless brutes. Even Smaug from the Hobbit was intelligent in his own degree, even though his own greed and ego pwned him in the end. I always thought that dragons who could turn into humans via polymorph was awesome. I mean, imagine meeting Bahamut in the street. "Yo dawg!" "Actually, I'm a dragon, but hello to you too." *chuckles* And yes, I know i'm the only one who found that funny. Anyhow, I always thought that Wyverns were the mindless brutes, except for one in this old book who was half drake as well.

What?

[Seth_Rahl]

What?

Yes.

[Zook Murnig]

Yes.

Mmm. Indeed. *puffs pipeweed, blowing a smoke circle*

In all seriousness, however, I've always imagined dragons being movers and shakers of more than just the ground they walk on. They're highly intelligent, more often than not moreso than most humans, and are party to some of the world's greatest secrets, whether arcane or mundane. They are enormous, strong, fast, and mystically powerful. They are by no means "brutes."

Of course, that's my opinion of dragons. And of the older ones, at that. I happen to know one person who has a rather small and weak dragon who is nonetheless intelligent, conniving, and spiteful.

EDIT: Let me just say, however, that it's not likely that I will ever use a dragon in any of my quests with this character. If I do, it'll be in a cross-system manner, not one in which Cad knows the mystical properties of such beasts.

[Sighter Tnailog]

I think the point I am trying to make is this.

IT ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT DRAGONS.

Althanas is designed to let you do whatever the hell you want to do with regard to the beasts you encounter. So make them dumb brutes or intelligent, technologically advanced cyborgs in charge of vast mercenary armies. Some ideas may be stupider than others -- and thus Godhand's "What?" -- but sitting around arguing over the characteristics of a dragon is a bit self-indulgent.

[Caden Law]

Incidentally: What other ridiculously powerful beasties have we got roaming around here?

[Ashiakin]

Essentially, Caden, whatever you want to have roaming about. Salvar, for instance, officially has things like ice drakes and sea monsters. But that doesn't mean you couldn't come up with something else if you wanted. We're certainly not going to stop you and I personally encourage everyone to be as creative and different from other players with your monsters as you want. Some things would make less sense than others--finding desert sand worms on the snowy plains of Salvar, for instance--but if you come up with a story explaining it, then it's cool.

The continent info isn't here to repress you--just to give you general guidelines and help if you feel you're stuck. The idea is basically this: debating the stats of non-cannon monsters is pointless because you can create whatever you want, no matter what another player has done in the past.

[Seth_Rahl]

As a note, I've introduced the mriswith race to Althanas, which is a strong race indeed. But like Ashiakin said, whatever you wish basically.

[Cyrus the virus]

I once created a race also and they can also be found on Althanas, also.