Low Level Anxiety

[Ebivoulya]

Most of us have felt it at one time or another, and a lot still do. We see all those big names in tournaments and discussion threads, getting JCs and playing with other equally awesome people. What about the unsung noobs, though?

I can say from experience Althanas can be an intimidating place to roleplay. Just skim through a random thread that's NOT in Scara Brae or the Peaceful Promenade and you'll see authors in the works, some times great pieces of fiction with driving stories and powerful characters (not in the powergaming sense).

This kind of leaves the rest of us unknowns down here constituting the majority, hoping we'll one day get a Judge's Choice, or possibly win a tournament. The tendancy seems to be to stick with one's own, although I'm certainly not accusing the higher levels of being snobs. I've seem them eagerly take on low level participants, but the general feeling is that unless you've sort of built up a name for yourself, you need to spend some more time scrubbing those toilets before you get to play with the big dogs.

Obviously these people have things on their mind, they don't have time to tug along a green recruit. It's kind of giving Althanas a duality, which coincidentally mocks the real world quite well. There are the 'upper crust,' those names we always see and we know will always deliver. Then, there are the bourgeoisie. The common man. They do what they can, quest around for some extra loot or a cool new weapon to play with, but in their minds they are far removed from the stars of Althanas. I don't even have to name names, we all know them, or we'll learn soon enough.

That puts a lot of pressure on those 'stars,' though. A string of bad days and they could lose the limelight. Take the results of The Cell for example. I know a lot of people don't want to bring that up, but that's proof that an underdog can come from behind and snag the victory. A lot of people don't like that, but that's how it'll always be. One of us up and comers will eventually get it in his head to be the best, and he'll be damned if some bad looks and rumors are going to stop him.

Althanas has done quite the job of recreating a living world here, and that is very commendable. I do have one message for those unsung heroes yet to come; 'Your moment in the sun is fast approaching. Don't trip, lest a fellow takes your place.'

[Witchblade]

o.o

Despite the fact that my name is in pretty little Italics and I'm a Judge here I would not consider myself part of this 'elite group' you seem to have brought up. Like any other roleplaying site Althanas does have people who can write extremely well and people who are still learning, that doesn't mean one day they won't get better. If you compared my work from when I first joined Althanas to what it is now I doubt you'll be able to see any kind of similarity. But I don't understand this rant, these 'elite' rp'ers do not hold themselves in esteem and often let people rp with them that are just starting out, though I know you already mentioned that.

I do not see the point of this thread. You're basically just pointing out the fact that some people have more experience/are better writers then others and just telling people not to give up on writing. I think if they're here they obviously want to write and don't plan on giving up any time soon.

Oh, and by the way the winner of The Cell may have been Hushpuppy but in no way is he some kind of 'noob', since Hushpuppy is one of LordLeopolds other accounts.

[Ashiakin]

I have to agree with Witchblade. What you're saying, Ebivoulya, basically applies to any recreational organization, whether it's the chess club or a sports team. Shit's awkward at first. I think most people on Althanas try to be accomodating and nicer to newer players, which is as much as you can really expect people to do. Oftentimes it's hard to break yourself out of an established story you have going with other people. And if you check out the OOC forums, I don't think there's that much of a class distinction at all there.

[Daggertail]

I don't mean this as a cricism of any of the judges or any other mods and admin.

I agree with you in there is a large source of anxiety and it's mostly that good writing is required to do certain things. you want a character of superhuman strength, you better have a nice quest earning it. scores are the way you can get the stuff you want and you need some good scores to get what you want and sometimes need. while it is true that the greats can't make a DBZ goku but they will have the right to have a more skilled character than a lesser writer. I know there isn't some ultra Elite that stick there nose up at the others, well it's a couple of loud guys who don't add to much anyways other than trying to prove how smart they are in tournaments. But still there is the problem that those that score great can have stronger characters than the lessser writers. I know it's the stick in Althanas charrot and stick approach but there is a reason to why people get discouraged.

[Letho]

I have to agree with Ashiakin. Whenever you come into a new community, you're bound to face anxiety to some extent, regardless if it's an online community such as Althanas or something in real life. And it takes time to get to know people, to get into the groove, catch up on some inside jokes and present your own personality. I know that as a fact; it took me over a year to get established on Althanas and get noticed by some of the big guns that would consider having me in their threads. So like most things in life, you have to be persistent and do your best and soon enough you'll crawl out of anonymity. I seldom saw that somebody got instantly famous here.

I do understand from where Ebivoulya is coming from though. The truth is that there is some segregation within Althanas ranks in my opinion. Some of these "elite" writers do stick with a selected number of writers with which they are most comfortable with, whose characters they know, and if they do write stories with the so called "noobs", chances are it won't be anything terribly significant for their own story. But that is mostly because the newer players often lack dedication and drop out of quests before it gets done, and that gets even my goat. So between playing it safe with the known writers and risking with the new ones, people are prone on picking the former because they want to finish telling the story instead of seeing it die.

I personally have only one prerequisite for people that write with me here; get the job done. I don't write for the score, I tell a story and I'm always eager to write with different people, new and old alike.

[Dissinger]

As many people can tell you I was one of those low level newbs. Hell even when I was as high as the "vets" I wasn't really recognized. One thing that can help is to get your character moving. If you can just focus on your character, he'll begin to fillout and grow, and the roleplay comes more fluidly and natural. Soon the level comes with it and you find yourself a level 7 looking down at 99% of the baord wondering what the hell happened.

Letho can tell you there is many paths to the high road. Mine happens to get me the label of Emo, probably because I deal with issues most people don't want to consider. His was the knight in shining armor going off to save the day. Until I rubbed off on him ;)

And yeah Hushpuppy was a veteran, as was chumely, as will be the next character Leopold makes when he wants to try to win yet another tournament. I think thats his schtick, making a character that is uniquely designed for the tournament, I don't know.

Anyways back to the point. Newbie anxiety is something thats all in your head, and as we all know, you defeat yourself nine times out of ten.

[grim137]

As has been mentioned newb anxiety is common and it is natural to feel intimidated by people such as Letho when you first start out. The fact that many newbs often start out getting really low scores doesn't help this (though I'm assuming thats why judgings are more lenient in Scara Brae). Honestly its not that big a deal though, stick with it and your writting will get better. Anybody who remembers my really early stuff knows exactly what I'm talking about here. I've seen guys like me, Diss and a few others start off as crappy paragraph posters and grow into experianced writers.

Plus honestly it is much easier for a newb to get his footing now than it was awhile ago. It used to be every quest/battle recruitment seemed to have some sort of score above X or level above X requriement that you had to meet before the GM would ever even consider you. Same with most powergroups. Luckily while there is still a little bit of that it is rare to the point of being almost non-existant. In fact the only recent cases I can think of are a few sparse threads in the Citadel requesting that a character be a certain level.

The real reason a lot of veterans have trouble RPing with newer members is because newbs tend to be unreliable. I can't even begin to count the number of threads I've been in that died because some newb in it got up and left. Of course then again the same thing as happened to me with some of the really old vets whose posting is flakey (at best). So yeah its understandable when people want to stick to posting with people they know they can count on and are hesitant about questing with people who haven't yet proven they can finish a thread.

[LordLeopold]

I don't think that writing on Althanas is worthwhile if you're going to worry about getting Judge's Choices or winning tournaments. Althanas has a competitive nature which we can't get totally get beyond, but I think for the most part we should try to push it out of our minds while we write and interact on Althanas. It only makes us second-guess our work, which doesn't foster creativity, but rather comformity to the norm of what we expect will get high scores. That prevents us from doing what we're supposed to be doing on Althanas: having fun.


And yeah Hushpuppy was a veteran, as was chumely [sic], as will be the next character Leopold makes when he wants to try to win yet another tournament. I think thats his schtick, making a character that is uniquely designed for the tournament, I don't know.


You're damn right you don't know. Some of us create characters to try interesting new ways of writing and roleplaying, and enter tournaments because they're the places you're most likely to encounter dedicated writers who won't leave your thread after two posts. There are even some of us who don't write to get ephemeral ego-boosting accolades. I count myself among that small group, of which you are apparently not a member. My "schtick," as you call it, is writing what I want, how I want, when I want. Personally, after comparing our track records in the past two tournaments, I'd say my "schitck" has been far more successful than yours. Take note and tremble.

[Ashiakin]

I don't think that writing on Althanas is worthwhile if you're going to worry about getting Judge's Choices or winning tournaments. Althanas has a competitive nature which we can't get totally get beyond, but I think for the most part we should try to push it out of our minds while we write and interact on Althanas. It only makes us second-guess our work, which doesn't foster creativity, but rather comformity to the norm of what we expect will get high scores. That prevents us from doing what we're supposed to be doing on Althanas: having fun.

I really agree with this. It's far too often that I see newer players on Althanas stressing out about getting a JC or winning a tournament, when that's not what Althanas is about at all. If you look most of the people who have gotten JC's and won tournaments, they're ususally modest people who are not too concerned with those accomplishments. I'm not saying they're not proud they wrote something good--just that they generally don't see being insitutionally recognized as the high point of their time on the site. And it very much should not be. You're here to enjoy yourself. Otherwise you wouldn't be here. And if you learn a little about how to make your writing better along the way, that's just a bonus.


And yeah Hushpuppy was a veteran, as was chumely, as will be the next character Leopold makes when he wants to try to win yet another tournament. I think thats his schtick, making a character that is uniquely designed for the tournament, I don't know.

You are absolutely unbelievable.

[Daggertail]

Plus honestly it is much easier for a newb to get his footing now than it was a while ago. It used to be every quest/battle recruitment seemed to have some sort of score above X or level above X requirement that you had to meet before the GM would ever even consider you. Same with most powergroups. Luckily while there is still a little bit of that it is rare to the point of being almost non-existant. In fact the only recent cases I can think of are a few sparse threads in the Citadel requesting that a character be a certain level.


I have a fear that Althanas may be returning to that. It seems that everyday the judging formulas and the overall feeling from the announcements are that we want good writers and arn't in the mood to truly help bad writers become good writers. What we need to do is be less concerned about reward/punishment and helping out people whom arn't as good. The score centric formulas and attitude makes lesser writers take longer to level up but also their levels will overall be weaker than a better writer of a same level. I know it's easy when you’re good at scoring to just write but what if you're a person who hears: "You can't do that because your thread just isn't good enough for it." After that you might end up fretting about scores, I know it makes me worry about them more than I ever wanted to.

[Breaker]

It seems like it's impossible for a thread like this not to start a few flames. Perhaps in the future all such threads should be labelled "Kindling".

Ebivoulya makes a valid point, in my opinion. More experienced writers do tend to stick together (I'm not saying exclusively, I'm saying it DOES happen) and because of that new people generally end up writing with each other. Occasionally, someone comes to Althanas who is already a phenomenal writer, and they generally get a JC then suddenly get invited to the elite squad. FNT and Gild were a few such examples, two amazing writers who (to the best of my knowledge) aren't around anymore. I'm not saying anyone is being mean or conceited, but it makes it harder to improve when the only people you can RP with are at the same or lower level as you.

Ebivoulya, I can't help but notice you didn't make any suggestions of how this might be changed. I can think of a few, but I need to restart my PC at the moment, so maybe I'll post them later, although I'd be surprised if anyone is even interested.

I count myself lucky to have had the oppurtunity to RP with INDK (don't know his real name) and Pavel on several occasions in the past, and I've got to say, writing alongside someone who is better than you DOES help you to improve. It helps a whole lot.

[Roscar Palidyne]

You want to get better at writing? You wanna feel a little more well known or respectable or whatever? Write with someone who you believe has great skill in writing. I find that I tend to meet the standards and expectations of the person that I'm in an RP with. If he or she is really good, I feel somewhat pressured to try and keep up, but at the same time I really get motived to improve myself. 9 times outta 10, I do. It gives you something to climb, which is always enticing to me. As for my character, well, I've given him some thought, realizing that he's not really anything special right now. Yeah he's got a premise of going from old to young, but you gotta have more than that to really flesh out a good character, I think. Another way to get notice? Change your character. Do something that he or she would do, but make the character completely changed from what he or she was at the beginning. You might catch an eye.

[Artifex Felicis]

When I first came to Althanas, after 7 quests/battles, my highest score was a 40 at most. I remember my first one not breaking 15 =P

Really, I always thought of Althanas as sort of a "Ask and ye shall Receive" type of place. Most of the olde rpeople will agree to a quest, yet I know I often don't go out of my way to find people unless I'm looking for a battle or something like that. Most of the time the High Level people stick together is because they simply have written together before. I wrote with Daggortail before, and with the history we had our story was also still unfished. Including that we both enjoy writting with each other, and so on. Far as I know, most of the time people write with the same people they were writting with when they first arrived with, and then slowly branch out.

[Vaan]

When I first came to Althanas, after 7 quests/battles, my highest score was a 40 at most. I remember my first one not breaking 15 =P

I feel much better after reading that. My first score was like a 20 or something, idiot that I was I was thinking scoring worked like school and that I got a major F. A little disheartening to say the least. I think so far my highest score has been a battle with Soloman, tied with 59, but that's the only thread I did with that character. I'm too flaky to do quests with veterans or even noobs.

One thing that I think separates the veterans and the noobs, or at least me, is that veterans are more likely to agree to a quest that has some well-structured intricate plot and is all planned out, while noobs with new characters are more for the spontaneous, we'll see where it goes, kind of thread. One time I think I had a character set the peaceful promenade on fire even, I don't remember how it happened but it did. I've been wondering if other noobs felt this way too, or if I'm like the wierd one.

[AsukaStrikes]

Setting the Peacful Promenade on fire? Well, doesn't that ring a bell...

I generally agree with what most people have said here, but I'll throw in my two gold coins as well. Figuratively throwing them in, thanks. (Don't you dare take away 2 GP from my stash!)

Getting started on anything is a tough bone to chew. Heck, especially if English isn't your Mother Tongue. As time goes by and you RP with other people, or just writing in general, you start to emulate the tactics and strategies you found most suited and easiest to remember.

Take my sis account, Yamihara, for example. About 70% of threads she was involved in was never finished, thus never judged or awarded. If all of them had been judged and given EXP rewards, she would have been at least level 2 by now. Still, that did not stop her to keep on writing with the new folks who might end up going away on extended leave.

That happened numerous times with me, but I still do that from time to time.

As for the separation of classes, it is pretty much inevitable. However, the situation won't last forever. The lines gets blurred from time to time when the vets jump into RP with the new guys (and I do hope you guys do it often) and give pointers from time to time. Hell, PM them once and a while would be nice as well.

That's what I will be doing from now on. At least on my end as well as my sis and Master Raven.

[Lavinian Pride]

You're damn right you don't know. Some of us create characters to try interesting new ways of writing and roleplaying, and enter tournaments because they're the places you're most likely to encounter dedicated writers who won't leave your thread after two posts.

Even then its no guarantee.


There are even some of us who don't write to get ephemeral ego-boosting accolades. I count myself among that small group, of which you are apparently not a member. My "schtick," as you call it, is writing what I want, how I want, when I want. Personally, after comparing our track records in the past two tournaments, I'd say my "schitck" has been far more successful than yours. Take note and tremble.

I'll tremble when you drop the attitude. I promise ;)

As for what group I'm apart of, I'd leave that out, I never input that as an attack on you, yet you clearly attack me here. I'd be wary of what you say. I merely was commenting that on both characters previously made, both were abandoned post tournament. The evidence points in a far different direction than you like to cloak about yourself.

So lets just drop the attitude out of here and move on, lest someone think we're in another married couple spat shall we?

EDIT: Heck I'll take it a step further. You have my AIM contact me if you feel the need to try and rub my face in your success anymore.

I think alot of points were brought up here and some where valid. Perhaps someone on the other side of the fence could say that writing with good writers is so intimidating, that they try and give up as they feel they can't keep up. There is many reasons and until someone comes forth and states them I don't think we can just say that the "newbs" aren't committed.

[Krugor]

I don't get it, why this anxiety? When I first came here I wasn't at all intimidated by the higher levels. Sure, I was very much impressed by their work, but I naturally assumed that they got so good by being here so long. When I've spent five years here I expect to be better than I am now too. And JC's, winning tournaments, questing with level 15's isn't what Althanas is about. I even joined a tournament knowing I would be knocked in the first round, because I didn't have the time to finish it. I asked somebody to kill me off and I still had tons of fun. What does it matter what level you have, or with what people you quest? As long as you're having fun!

[Ithermoss]

Everyone starts out a beginner. I'm not going to waste anyone's time by jumping anyone's schtick (;)) or telling you the story of my beginning here at althanas. I've been called a heavyweight before, and the word only has as much emphasis as you place in it.

A big problem, is that a lot of the vets have proven to be dependable in their threads. Roleplaying with newer players, you're taking a risk in that your thread may very well be abandoned. I am among the crowd of people who are quite frustrated with threads falling totally flat. The last one I actually *finished* was about a year ago. I'm not kidding. Due to one reason or another, I've roleplayed with non-elites (if you want to classify people by reputation, and not writing ability), and I've lost the gamble almost every time.

That is not, however, to say that I'm against roleplaying with new characters. In fact, if a new player has skill, hell yes I'll rp with him. That's the stipulation. However, I tend to refuse threads when I feel the other players aren't up to snuff. I want a challenge, whether I'm battling someone, or just questing with them.

To make it short and sweet: if you show dedication, and work at your craft, beating anyone isn't a question. There is no perfect writer.

But this self defeating "low level anxeity" is stupid. That's like going to a gym, and shying away because everyone else is more in shape than you are. What does anyone else's ability have to do with your own?

[Alberdyne_Cormyr]

I think the start of the anxiety comes with fear of performance.

I know that since I first started rping here at Althanas so many years ago my main concern was always First and fore-most telling a great story. In a lot of respects that remains my main concern but now its telling a story and having fun with it.

Too many folks that come here tend to overwhelm themselves by joining lots of threads in the beginning hoping to level up. The trick to Althanas is joining a couple of really good threads that AMP YOU UP and make you want to stay in the thread until the very end.

I remember my first threads in Althanas was the original The Cell, and some story that AH 21 first wrote. (Jeebuz this makes me feel old)

My whole schtick from the get-go was to embrace the younger, more inexperienced writer. While I was eager to level up like everybody else I didn't make this my priority. I just wanted to tell a great story. At some point during that I scored pretty high from the get-go cause I already knew how to roleplay and story tell from before I joined Althanas.

I think that as long as us, the vets, try to rp with the newer writers (I always hated that term "Noob" I think we shouldn't use it to label each other. I've spied some awesome material coming from the next generation of Althanians) we will progress exponentially as a community.

To me that's the key. We gotta take more time to embrace the younger generation with open arms.

[Breaker]

(I always hated that term "Noob" I think we shouldn't use it to label each other. I've spied some awesome material coming from the next generation of Althanians)

Refer HERE (http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20060823) for the difference between a Noob and a Newb.

Pavel, you've hit on the only thing that will abolish the whole "class" thing. Ebivoulya related Althanas to real life. Well, in real life the rich and famous seldom stoop to help out the lower middle class. If the "Elite" of Althanas help the Newbs, then there will be a difference.

I know I'm not one of the elite, but I don't think I classify as a newb either. We need a word for somewhereinthe-middlins like me.

[LordLeopold]

Haha, Dissinger you are so full of crap that it's not even funny. You have a lot of gall to make transparent barbs like that and then complain that I've attacked you. Don't throw claims that I'm rubbing something in your face or have an attitude at my feet. You came in here with the attitude, making snide remarks in an attempt to brand me with some sort of scarlet letter, and then cry foul when I call you out on it? It's another attempt to make yourself look like Althanas's "First Citizen" through blatant skulduggery and propagating the vintage of sour grapes.

I fail to see how either character was abandoned post-tournament, and even if that were true it's no proof that the characters were created specifically for any tournaments. Meerplex has been updated since then, and Chumley has been involved in threads outside the LCC. As to why I haven't roleplayed with either recently: I haven't been in more than one thread at once lately because I just don't have the time to write several good storylines at once. Even if I did have the time, however, I certainly don't have the incentive, because both characters have become whipping boys, with you as the standard-bearer of those doing the whipping. To be frank, I'd be shocked if anyone even responded to threads I started with either character, so why try? Even if they did, I would have the inevitable resulting avalanche of complaints to deal with, which helps to leech the fun out of writing either character. Additionally, at this point I'd rather not start another solo quest until I finish my Leopold meta-narrative, primarily because so few people read my Leopold solo quests that I'm less likely to get flak for how I write them. As an addendum, I actually don't have your AIM contact information, nor would I IM you even if I did.

I think this is a perfect example of why newbies could easily feel intimidated by the established roleplayers. Established roleplayers attack people who do something they don't like, complain when their writing isn't automatically favored over others', pick fights with each other, and shoot out snarky snide remarks from their false moral high ground at anyone who dares to contradict them.

[Alberdyne_Cormyr]

Guys NONE OF THIS MATTERS can we NOT try to spam each other? This is suppoed to be a thread about a specific subject and we THE VETS are supposed to be setting an example here--not the other way around.

I think some of us need to take a chill pill, its really not that serious.

[Serilliant]

Thank you for your input. Please be wary of policing the forums, however. Such posts are as detractive as the original flames.

That having been said, I'm confident that there will be no more issues in this thread. If I am incorrect, I can guarantee that they will be dealt with in a very harsh manner. This is your final warning.

[Taviri Ambria]

I don't think its a question of whether the vets include the newer roleplayers in their discussions. I think its more of the point that newer roleplayers might feel intimidated. I can understand with some of the stuff that goes on the forums, alot of people are writing broad large storylines that don't seem to leave much room for moving about.

Perhaps thats the problem, too much internalization and not enough externalization. Though its understandable when you're writing a storyline you want to get self centered.

[Ithermoss]

Well, perhaps it would help if I made everyone cookies. Cookies of peace. I'll mail 'em. I swear to God. Welcome to Althanas. Here's your confection, compliments of the Realm of Greeting. It's the warm welcome that melts in the bag, on your hands, in your mouth, and via post.

Of course, this would be more successful an endeavor than the "icecream by mail" thing I tried with Letho. He didn't appreciate the box of sour dairy products being shipped to his home in Europe.

Edit: Especially not in the heat of summer. Cardboard may be a suitable container for ice cream, but certainly not when reduced to a mud-like consistency.

[Ebivoulya]

Ah, yes, if we could all learn from the wise words of Ithermoss we might all be better off. I'm sorry to see things exploded like that, but with egos abound it's certainly likely someone will get something someone else said stuck deeply where the sun don't shine.

This wasn't intended to be specifically about me, I've managed to get over it for the most part, but I do have one question: what ever happened to the days when we could all just gather up in a local tavern and go slay some big bad beast for a bunch of shiny stuff and weapons? Do none of you bother with those 'cookie cutter' quests anymore? Just because you don't have five specific NPCs strategically placed throughout the storyline to guide your character to a self revelation doesn't mean they can't be changed. Most of the younger rpers come here from places where generic quests are the norm, and all these character intensive stories seem awefully heavy. Some of us just want to write once in a while without spending hours thinking about how we can use it to further our character's personality and history. Rping isn't really fun anymore, at least not like it was when character, skill, believability and all that weren't as important. Has Althanas lost its sense of humor?

Taviri hit the nail on the head.

Do all of you plan on saving these stories somewhere and publishing a book about them eventually? You're all too caught up in your own characters to give much of a damn about the experience of it, just the sheer interaction. You're too worried about how you can show off your character's personality in his dialogue, body language, and even the quest scenery. Some things should be left up to chance, or at least someone else.

You 'oldbies' need to lighten up a little, for the most part. I mean, it's not your lives that hang in the balance.

[Ithermoss]

Ah, yes, if we could all learn from the wise words of Ithermoss we might all be better off.

Emphasis mine. I could be friggin President.

[Storm Veritas]

I do have one question: what ever happened to the days when we could all just gather up in a local tavern and go slay some big bad beast for a bunch of shiny stuff and weapons? Do none of you bother with those 'cookie cutter' quests anymore?

For the most part, they've been done. By all of us, yourself included, Doctah. When writing I try to look for something new, something interesting. It would be GREAT if I could actually get someone outside the thread to be interested enough to read what I've put down, but there is the grand challenge.

Most of the key points have been hit already. I tend to write with older veterans only because I know they will stick with it, but certainly don't rule out newer members. Also, EXP is more quantity than quality driven, so there is no reason to have to stress about writing with a high-level character. You're every bit as good. Saddle up and have fun.