9/11 cover-up, evil government, etc.

[Shadar]

No one responded to my other thread. I suppose that's understandable, seeing as I was freaking out from one end of the spectrum to the other. (The second post to the tune of "I was just being weird" was impulsive damage control to maybe keep from being abandonned as a nutcase.) Then, no one deletes it despite me asking them to... Weird attention blackout thing going on.

I'm not going to make a scene. I'm probably going to fade from Althanas again for fear of becoming a target of knee-jerk hate. But, I'm going to post the stuff I've been researching lately. It's all the links I've been gathering in lj. Most of the stuff is repetitive. The stuff near the bottom of the list is the best quality, in my opinion. So, if you don't have hours to spend (and are actually interested in any of this anti-patriotic stuff) pick one or two from the bottom. I'd say the very bottom one has the most evidence behind it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3538037502590699697&q=david+ray+griffin
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529813972926262623
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8797525979024486145&q=ruppert
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5946593973848835726&q=loose+change
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6596630292015140276&q=loose+change
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1538516179827521093&q=bush+torture
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4258946892514662399&q=9%2F11
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7501020220921158523&q=9%2F11
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=6619753987505107802&q=olbermann
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7461137199975071051&q=Confronting+the+Evidence
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4757274759497686216&q=terror
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7752483415674202196&q=terror

And some sites I've been checking out.

http://www.copvcia.com/
http://www.infowars.com/

If anyone shows interest, I might talk about what I believe and all that. We'll see how it goes. (One American has dared to speak to me after seeing this stuff, so I'm not holding out too much hope.)

EDIT: Very recent. Very scary. Please listen to this.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/alex/jones_rense_official_dictatorship.htm

[Rinoa]

Okay first off this is all conspricy, and stupidity to even believe any of this nonsense. I am sorry but this sort of thing pisses me off. If you think that George W. Bush is "SMART" enough to even have the ability to become a dictator your a moron yourself. Do you honestly think that if educated americans learned that Bush obtained absolute power they would do nothing? Give me a bloody break mate, alot of them are daft but come on.
The acts such as the patriot act and such do allow them to tap into particular phone lines if that invidival is under suspesion of terriost actions. Yet what do you have to worry about if your not doing anything of that nature? I really don't think they care what your boyfriend ran over a monkey last night. If you understand what I mean. An entire liberal party, which includes the majority of the media, and most city dwelling wankers. Hate Bush with a passion, and I am not too fond of him eitheir. This twat has not the skills nor the brain capacity to become a dicator....come on....

[Storm Veritas]

Well, hell, I can't see these from work. Firewalled video google AND youtube.

The best conspiracy theory video I have seen was the 9/11 cover-up with the plane into the pentagon being a missile.

I think the conspiracy theories are largely just fabricated fiction. Spinning numbers around, carefully selecting only certain witnesses, changing camera angles to show limited shots... it's just a little too overproduced to be fully credible in my eyes. They don't have to back up their claims, don't have to cite sources, and can create "facts" merely by saying so, putting the onus on the viewer to double check every claim. Like, you know... FoxNews.

Now, have you seen the "Scientology Murder Cover Up" conspiracy theory video? That one was also interesting, although in fairness I can't lend it any more credence.

[Serilliant]

I really don't think they care what your boyfriend ran over a monkey last night. If you understand what I mean.
All I know is that I'd like to help congeal your Jell-O, if you know what I mean.

I've seen Loose Change. Some of its claims provoke a, "huh..." but not much more. Personally, I don't think Johnny McGasStationAttendant is a credible authority. "It sounded like a missile!" Thanks, guy, and you know the difference in sounds between a jet and a missile how? Couple that with the fact that some (not all, of course) of its claims have been refuted on either a factual or analytical basis, I begin to question the validity of the overall claims.

That having been said, yes it would be scary if the big bad government wolf was taking us over. Yes, I realize I do surrender individual freedoms when things such as the Patriot Act are passed. Yes, it does bother me that the police can hold and question me without formally charging me for any crime for 30 days on the basis that I'm a "terrorism suspect" despite the obvious violation of my rights. But do I think that a massive conspiracy is at the core of it all? No. Keep in mind, the president, his staff, advisors, congress, judges, all of them...they're all people just like you and me and everyone else. They're subject to acting stupidly, being fearful, and making rash decisions. Just because they do bad things does not mean it is because of a calculated, methodical evil.

[EarlStevens]

Almost all the 9/11 conspiracy theories, including the ones presented here, have been sufficiently debunked by more credible nongovernmental sources for me to feel pretty confident in saying there's not much point in thinking much about them.

We don't need to imagine there was a massive 9/11 conspiracy to think that many the actions taken by the government in response to the attacks are bad and should be stopped.

[Breaker]

Oh my god, Shadar? You still exist??? Holy enchilladas!

[Ter-Thok]

I thought about this whole conspiracy thing for a liiittle while, but then I started looking at the kinds of websites that consider this worthwhile news to report. (http://www.torrentspy.com/default.asp)

Eventually, no matter how polished their videos and what-not look, their arguments devolve into this kind of rabid mania. Yeah, it's true that there's a lot of shit flying around here in the US, but it's panicked shit. "Crap, terrorists! We have to cover our asses to get elected again! And again!" is more the thought process than, say, "Yes...yes. All goes according to plan. What? A conspiracy website? Damn you, bAlLsUcCer932! Damn your insightful bravery!"

Shadar, man, I don't blame ya for being nervous about this whole thing, what with yer fine young lass being from down here, but it's not a conspiracy. It's just...panic.

Aaaand invading the wrong country...there's some of that.

Oh, and greed.

But no conspiracy. Don't need an intricate plan to create a clusterfuck, mis amigos.

[Ithermoss]

Yep. Seen it. All of it.

It's interesting, sure. It raises questions. It also proves nothing. To be frank, it almost had me convinced the first time I saw it. It's easy to fall into that kind of thing.

Rinoa, play nice or shut your mouth, would you? If what someone believes actually has you that pissed, the last place you should be is on the internet. Show some courtesy, eh?

[Ther]

No conspiracy theorist has proven to me yet why there wouldn't have been a leaker.

No one's going to hate you for posting these things, Shadar, but I agree with EarlStevens that these aren't really worth the time required to watch them.

[grim137]

Maddox sums up my thoughts regarding most 9/11 conspiracy theories perfectly. (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons)

Personally I think most of them are a bunch of bullshit the stem from the fact that their creators and believers always fall under the catagory of "morons who hate Bush".

[Ithermoss]

Maddox sums up my thoughts regarding most 9/11 conspiracy theories perfectly. (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons)

Personally I think most of them are a bunch of bullshit the stem from the fact that their creators and believers always fall under the catagory of "morons who hate Bush".

Grim, if I were in your shoes, I'd have not stuck my foot in my mouth in such a John Kerry esque manner. Try not to connect lack of intelligence with lack of political support for a specific figurehead.

[grim137]

I'm not. I'm saying that most (read: not all) people who believe in these 9-11 conspiracy theories are morons who happen to hate Bush. I never said all morons like Bush nor did I ever say all people who like Bush are morons.

[Shadar]

*sigh* As usual, the people not in the "that's nonsense" camp don't voice their opinion, though they must statistically exist.

Evidence really is moot here. There is too much emotionally at stack to make any numbers or facts matter without a real persuasive voice behind them, and I just so happen to be one of the least persuasive people I am aware of. (It's a real pain even when dealing with the most mundane issues in life and my dearest loved ones. Disgusting, sometimes.) So, I'm not going to try. I might as well just list the facts I see to be true and get it over with.

I'm not gonna bother getting links or details for an unwilling audience, so all you silent fence sitters can look it up yourselves.

Both sides of the 9/11 debate have influencial people with lots of intelligent sounding titles. (Yes, there are people in the US intelligence agencies who say it was an inside job. They just can't get people to listen. It's not that there are no whistle blowers, but that they're muffled by the fact that in most cases it's a criminal offence to leak this kind of stuff while working in those positions, and the retired personel tend to be ignored anyway, seeing as they don't make for profitable news.)

Long aside... anyway.

I believe that the case for explosives is far stronger than the case against explosives. It is also suspicious how the defence response had so many coincidental distractions right at that time. Same thing happened in London with the subway and bus bombing. An identical drill, of that very plan on those same vehicles at the same time, was being done when the real event happened.

Though, 9/11 is meaningless now, apart from being the excuse for all the current crap. The US government is being restructured, mostly in midnight sessions with blissfully low attendance. Safeguards against a dictatorial executive branch, martial law, and invasions of privacy are all being removed. It's approaching the point where the only thing keeping the American people safe from those things is that the executive branch hasn't yet chosen to use all its newfound powers. (If you think Bush won't, what about future presidents?)

To give some perspective... If the current powers were used, I could be in legal trouble on my next visit to the US simply for writing this post. As for what they could legally do to me, I'll leave that for people who want to look it up, cause it'll sound insane if I just say it.

There's even a plan in place (fully approved by the appropriate bodies) to make sure that by 2007-2008 every American will have an ID card with a tracking chip in it. At all times, the government will know where you are. It's quite common news, as is the implantable tracking chip they're talking about.

Then there's the plans for a North American Union of Canada, US, and Mexico. That's been reported on in both our countries. It scares me because there's a good chance the US government would be the dominant one in that threesome, and I really don't want Canada to move in that direction. I like the fact that I can go to the emergency room without being in debt for the rest of my life (for 1/10 the cost of your insurance) and the fact that I'm rather safe from having to work into my 70's. Also not so vulnerable to abuses of government power here, for the moment.

Oh, and just something else to get out of my system. The elections down there are swimming in so much fraud it's sickening. There was enough shadey stuff going on in 2004 that it erased, changed, or added so many votes as to make that close race unable to determine. The electronic voting machines with no paper trail and plenty of complaints and errors was a big part of that. Don't expect it to stop.

So, I guess we'll all just have to wait to see what happens, seeing as no one is doing anything about it. If some of this stuff I suspect actually comes true, I guess I'll have the least gratifying "I told you so" moment ever. If not, we'll live happily ever after. But, I don't believe in fairy tales.

[Ithermoss]

Shadar, I respect your opinion, but using the standpoint that your side lacks the support of numbers to rationalize the lack of actual support is kind of a copout. You're not persuading anyone because you're using the words of other people who happen to be persuasive in their own right, and none, if not very few, of your own. That, and I was under the assumption that you started this thread to simply initiate a discussion or just provide information, not change someone's mind for him in the name of axe-grinding.

Second, you're giving yourself waaaay too much credit here, as far as being the "bad guy" goes. You have an opinion you feel strongly about. Good for you. As far as that "one american who has dared to talk to you," frankly, I never see you online. To the subjects of what you believe in and whether you can carry on a decent conversation... well, let's just say the two aren't mutually exclusive, unless that's all you've got to your personality (which I know for a fact, isn't). Having a conviction is no reason for someone to target you with "knee-jerk-hate." Granted, this has happened, but assuming it off the get-go is rather presumptuous. Starting out this conversation from a moral pedestal is going to win you the whole self-fulfilling prophecy of "nobody can stand you" for a totally different reason: because you're being kind of a wuss. Screw with a bull, don't cry foul when you get the horns.

Further, nobody exactly enjoys having someone meeting them on the streetcorner, only to tell them everything that's wrong with the state of their front lawn, when the grass ain't greener next door (perspective, I know, but it may very well be the perspective of your audience). Even more obnoxious is when that same neighbor not only is married to someone from the "at fault" side of the fence, but has a victim mentality as if he's being attacked for suggesting that where his own spouse comes from is so fraught with immorality, it makes him ill. There is someone in your life who deserves a little more of your respect, if only that she comes from that country in question. Having something sensitive to say and getting flak aren't mutually exclusive either.

Let me put it this way: if I was sitting at a bar with you, and you had ended a statement with your "I told you so" comment, I'd write you off as a dick, plain and simple. This isn't because of what you believe in; this is because there is an inherent problem with the positioning of your platform. You're allowing your integrity and, really, likeability to be sacrificed on the altar of your own self-righteousness. Please tell me this hasn't escaped you.

-------------

Grim...


Maddox sums up my thoughts regarding most 9/11 conspiracy theories perfectly. (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons)

Personally I think most of them are a bunch of bullshit the stem from the fact that their creators and believers always fall under the catagory of "morons who hate Bush."


I'm not. I'm saying that most (read: not all) people who believe in these 9-11 conspiracy theories are morons who happen to hate Bush. I never said all morons like Bush nor did I ever say all people who like Bush are morons.

Right. You said something totally different. Read it again. "Them" in the first quote refers to conspiracy theories, not the people who create them, as bullshit doesn't make a lick of sense when referring to something other than information. You just said that conspirators and those that believe them ALWAYS fall under the category of MORONS who hate BUSH. What you just said suggests that you didn't quite understand where I was coming from.