Judge's Choice Discussion

[Kryos]

Hey everyone,

Figure I might put this here. If I need to relocate or delete, let me know.

I was just meandering around the forums today, and decided to pop into the Judge's Choice. One thing kinda yelled at me right away. There hasn't been a judge's choice for over a year now, which is kinda sad to me. Wanted to get some thoughts on the matter.

Now, I know that Judge's Choice is not something that should be thrown around lightly. From my reading of a few of them, they are top notch for a reason, and are no doubt a lot of work in the making. But I wondered why there haven't been any of late. Is it that threads just aren't being completed? Is it a lack of motivation to create the best work possible? Could the workshop be slightly to blame, as you get a good score of 65 with multiple feedback, but thereby forego the opportunity to receive JC recommendation? Or am I mistaken that you can get JC recommendation from a workshop? Is it that the judge's have gotten more critical over time, and thus make it innately harder to receive scores that merit JC (not intentional on the judges part, no doubt)? Or is it some other factor that I haven't thought about? No big althanas events going on, like a FQ?

Anyway, let me know your thoughts. I would love to hear from members and judges/mods/admins alike. And this is by no means trying to point fingers or make my fellow writer's feel bad about ability in any way. I just noticed it, and wondered if anyone had any thoughts on the matter. Also, if anyone has a really good JC to recommend reading (besides all of them) let me know! Looking for a fun read. :)

DFTBA

[BlackAndBlueEyes]

You can actually get a JC off a workshop, if a judge reads it and feels that it's worthy of a nomination.

[Flames of Hyperion]

^ What BaBE said. It hasn't happened yet, although I did suggest at one point that we might employ a mechanism where members could nominate the threads of others for a JC, and if a thread garnered enough votes it would be put forth to the judges for consideration.

From recent threads, I would particularly recommend Burning Out (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?29993-Burning-Out) - Karuka and Rayse at their best. Otherwise, if it's fun you're after, just look for anything by Caden Law.

[Mythweaver]

As I understand it, a thread must first receive a score of eighty, no easy feat; and then be considered as a Judges Choice by the moderators. There's more to it than that, I think, but these are the two critera I know of. They were mentioned in a really old thread I found while doing a search.

Given how hard it is to get an eighty, I'm kind of surprised there are as many JCs as there are, but that's just me.

[Gnarl & Root]

A Judges choice can be nominated by the Judge for a score of 65 or higher. It is automatically nominated if it scores 80 or higher.

But either way, it is reviewed and voted for by the staff, and an overall positive vote will finally give it a Judges choice.

It's also worth noting, that this is achievable using: Workshop Judgment, Condensed Rubic Judgment, and Full Rubic Judgment.

[Tobias Stalt]

^75 or higher, is the rule.

[Kryos]

I was hoping for more of a discussion concerning trends of writing lately in regard to the judge's choice category, rather than simply the current "rules for qualification." We have had great judge's choices in the past. I still believe many more are to come. I just, wanna see them now, haha.

[Tobias Stalt]

Well, I contend that if people start writing better, people will start getting JCs. :P

That said, easier said than done.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Just to absolutely clarify the rules: 75 gets your thread a nomination for a JC, and 80 scores an automatic JC.

The judge's choice award is the higest honour on Althanas. They aren't given lightly, and that makes them as rare as rocking horse shit. Whilst I wouldn't want the criteria for a judge's choice to change, perhaps it is time for a "people's choice" award that recognises writing that would otherwise fall short of a JC but is nonetheless entertaining. This would combine the ideas of Flames and Kryos above.

If it got enough backing on here, it could be put to the other staff to see what they think.

[Gnarl & Root]

Not to throw a spanner in the works, but the official judgment rules thread states 65+ score to be nominated by a judge for a JC.

If this is not the case, it needs to be updated.

[Kryos]

I really like the idea of a People's Choice award. Not only does it recognize great writing and storytelling, but it means a lot to me as a member to be involved with awards moreso than the average member currently is able to be.

[kitsune]

The people's choice does sound interesting, maybe if a Judges choice nomination falls short it can be sent to people choice automatically.

[Storm Veritas]

The only devil's advocate perspective I'd offer is that "people's choice" presumes people read thread they aren't IN. I know for a fact that this is not the case for a lot of threads written here. Sheer time constraints makes this a prohibitive concept.

If there is some democratic process to nominate threads for "People's Choice" type awards that is different from JC, I'd be very interested in considering it and think on its face it is a great idea.

As for JC, I think the Writer's Workshop and AP system may actually play a BIG role here. Since more people are forced to judge to get their own shit read, you have more people weighing in on good threads, and more eyes on threads which may or may not warrant JC consideration. Long term, WW seems like the solution.

[BlackAndBlueEyes]

I'm not so sure I'm keen on the idea of a "people's choice" award.

Playing devil's advocate here for a second, I feel that the purpose of the JC is to push writers here to improve their abilities to a point where one day they can write something truly exceptional by our standards, and get recognized for it. There's a bit of prestige to be had, since your thread is enshrined among the best stories and authors this site has.

To be fair, everyone has a different opinion on what constitutes great writing, and I don't think it can't be argued that the rubric system will never be truly objective. What Judge X thinks is a 73, another would have scored a 81, and so on.

However, if you create a system where people can just vote for any story they liked, you run the risk of the entire thing becoming a worthless popularity contest. Everyone has their own biases here towards other writers and their works, and I feel that the voting process would eventually reflect that. And then if, say, Player X in Clique Y puts out a quick two thousand word thread with objectively sub-par plot development and action, and then he gets all of his buddies to vote for that and it's given a players' choice award, would the award itself be given any real meaning or weight? The whole idea just feels like a worthless participation reward that doesn't give you incentive to better yourself as a writer.

[Requiem of Insanity]

An 80 does not mean an automatic JC, as I have had a judge fairly tell me while exceptionally written, something was off and not quite JC material.

[Bard]

I agree with Andy, and as I understand it score isn't the only criteria for a thread becoming a JC. It is one, but not the only one.

Personally I'm not for a People's Choice award myself, beyond perhaps something added to the Althanas Awards.

[Flames of Hyperion]

While on the surface a People's Choice award sounds intriguing, I share the same concerns that Andy voiced - namely 'cliques' and 'popularity contests'. In themselves they aren't necessarily a bad thing - see the Althies - but , in my opinion, they should play no part whatsoever in a Judge's Choice award.

Hence I also agree with Storm - the Writer's Workshop is probably the way forward here. By submitting your thread to the WW, you're intrinsically opening it up to criticism and praise from all comers. If it passes this acid test by garnering positive reviews, then at least you can be sure that you've written something that other people have appreciated, whether or not it is then nominated for a Judge's Choice. I don't believe that it would be a bad thing to formalise this as a People's Choice, even if in the end it's just a participation reward. Especially given my peeve with the Workshop as is, which is that we have no idea whether or not the official judges are even looking at the threads there beyond setting them up and closing them (I understand that the judges are all busy people, and this is by no means an attack on anybody, but it does leave them open to accusations that the WW only exists to lighten the judging workload).

Going back to Kryos's original post, which was looking for comments on why there haven't been any JCs recently... in part I think it's because the judging nowadays is tougher than it was five years ago (I have to say that looking back now, I wouldn't have nominated any of my earlier threads for JCs...), and in part because there are fewer completed threads going through the system, and fewer still by writers who are willing to take the time to construct a good story and then thoroughly proofread and edit it before submission. It takes a lot of time and effort to get these things correct, and I can understand that sometimes when you're just writing for fun (i.e. in between classes, or after a hard day's work) it doesn't feel worth it. And while I'm in no way ridiculing or denigrating such threads, I can see why they aren't nominated for JCs, either.

In short, as people before have said: JCs are only for the best of the best, and if people start writing better, people will get JCs ^^.

[Tobias Stalt]

Score must meet the absolute minimum criteria to be considered for a Judge's Choice. If the Judge who is handling a thread does not deem it high enough in score to be a Judge's Choice, why would all of the Judges as a whole even consider a thread worthy of the esteem? It's logically consistent.

As far as a people's choice award, there is one. It's given out during the Althies.

Also, Gnarl, please message me with a link of the thread in which 65 is explicitly stated. I can't seem to find it to edit it.

[Storm Veritas]

I'm not so sure I'm keen on the idea of a "people's choice" award.

However, if you create a system where people can just vote for any story they liked, you run the risk of the entire thing becoming a worthless popularity contest.

If I Devil's Advocate a point made as Devil's Advocate, what does that make me? Angel's Advocate? Jebus?

Anyway, I'd counter to say that IF a "People's Choice" award appeared to be too much of a popularity contest, wouldn't that simply devaluate the "PC" award, without putting any risk on the "JC" award? There are absolutely biases to consider here, but judges are inherently going to have bias too, even if the biases are unintended. If a People's Choice award existed, the merit of it would be determined by the number of awards given, and the balance of prestige/rarity would be self-regulated.

At worst, if it all went to shit and every thread won a People's Choice Award, then couldn't we collectively just scrap the idea?

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Not to throw a spanner in the works, but the official judgment rules thread states 65+ score to be nominated by a judge for a JC.

If this is not the case, it needs to be updated.

Not the case i'm afraid. I suspect what you are reading is outdated.

[Hysteria]

I would hope that the risk of people voting in cliques would not deter a good suggestion. If we see those sort of behaviors we are fearing, then we can take steps to alter or end the People's Choice award. We are catastrophising otherwise.

[Logan]

The reason there are fewer JCs is a heavier focus on having fun and quantity. Writing a JC, no matter how well you naturally write, is not just time-consuming, it is also exhausting. Having said this, I've never had a JC, and I sincerely doubt I ever will. I just, personally, don't care enough to take the time and effort required, especially when most of my time now goes to staff work.

As I said, though, it comes down to a shift in focus. Quantity over quality. With that said, there is still something to be said for quality, but the focus just isn't on it.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

I would hope that the risk of people voting in cliques would not deter a good suggestion. If we see those sort of behaviors we are fearing, then we can take steps to alter or end the People's Choice award. We are catastrophising otherwise.

This.

[Breaker]

I agree with BaBe and Flames. To add a point which I haven't noticed mentioned yet, the popularity contest aspect of a Player's Choice award presents two problems. Firstly, as has been mentioned, it will cause people to game the system by always/only voting for their friends, and attempting to solicit votes. I don't think acknowledging that is catastrophizing at all. However, think about the other end of the stick as well. New players, or those who are less popular/have less friends on the boards, would be completely excluded from PC awards. I can see them becoming a kind of club, and I don't really see the need for that. If multiple people are reading your threads and telling you they like them, that should be a) reward enough and b) motivation to put in the extra effort and go for a JC.

[BlackAndBlueEyes]

If multiple people are reading your threads and telling you they like them, that should be a) reward enough and b) motivation to put in the extra effort and go for a JC.

Agreed.

[Max Dirks]

Some official insight here.

Rayleigh and I quietly removed the reference to 70+ scores as Judge's Choice eligible because we wanted to transition to a point where any judge could nominate a thread for the award regardless of score (since our scores vary significantly). It wasn't widely announced yet because we want workshop threads to be Judge's Choice eligible too and simply haven't decided a nomination process yet. I'd like it in the hands of the judge's completely, but the catch-22 is that judges don't always read or workshop threads they aren't assigned. Ultimately, we'll probably allow player nominations and judge's votes, but that's down the line.

[BlackAndBlueEyes]

What if you had two different shoppers suggest a thread for nomination, and then a judge would take a good look at it and decide whether or not it is worthy of an official JC nom?

[Rayleigh]

What if you had two different shoppers suggest a thread for nomination, and then a judge would take a good look at it and decide whether or not it is worthy of an official JC nom?

Along these lines, it would be pretty easy for a judge to see whether the reviews were favorable in a workshop. While all judges scan over the thread before making it a workshop (close enough to ensure it is a coherent story, and not the same things posted over and over to gain extra rewards), we don't read it very closely. However, when I close up workshops I do read the commentary that is provided. I want to make sure those who left comments earned their rewards, and that it isn't too harsh (if it were, I'd have a discussion via PM). Moving forward, I'd be happy to give workshops that receive overly positive reviews a closer read-through, and nominate them myself if I agree. It isn't a well-developed nomination process, by any means, but it is a start.

[Cards of Fate]

I think we need to step away from score as a majorly defining criteria for Jcs. We've had threads in the past that scored exceptionally well, but were shot down in the discussions portions. A Judges choice should shift towards it being a hands down enjoyable read, something that engages the reader despite some of its flaws etc.

Just my two cents here