Powergaming?

[Reiko]

I’m not bringing this up because something happened on Althanas, I just thought it would be a good discussion that we can learn from. What do you consider to be powergaming? Is it when someone uses an ability they don’t have in their profile or didn’t earn or is it when they do everything perfectly and there’s no guessing who’s going to win because the character can’t fail or do you have something different.

I think it’s when the character is played as he can do no wrong or when he never messes up against another player or a significant antagonist NPC, if I don’t find myself thinking “How’s s/he going to get out of this one” in the whole thread then I think there’s a bit of powergaming, it robs the thread of tension and my curiosity to see what happens next, easy stuff can happen but I want a time in a thread where I wonder how the hero or anti hero are going to come on top or if they might have a few problems. Of coarse it’s fine to have a little bit of easy battles, sometimes the hero should be able to take out some mooks without a drop of sweat but if it’s over done then there are some problems. It’s easy to fall into this when your character is high level since your character is supposed to be stronger than the others.

I hope this sparks an interesting conversation with many different opinions.

[Cyrus the virus]

To me, powergaming is anything unfair. An attack that's impossible to dodge (this does NOT include a tactful move, such as getting someone in a corner and then acting as any intelligent fighter would), doing something that isn't in your profile, and the like.

I don't think not taking hits is powergaming, myself. Izvilvin is an amazing fighter. If he fights a novice, I'll really only take a hit if the other writer does something clever, that Izvilvin wouldn't expect. To have my Drow screw up by slipping every time he fights someone not as skilled as him, it downplays his character and makes him look foolish. Not to mention it's completely unnatural. Having it happen every once in a while is no problem though. A higher level doesn't just make your character stronger. Depending on who you're using, he becomes more tactful, more skilled -- not just more fireball-handy.

Of course, the solution to this is to have NPC's with equal or greater power. This obviously only works in some situations :p

That's why my Citadel tour with Izvilvin is kaput now. He's too good. There were some guys who wanted to fight me who I knew I couldn't realistically, and with respect to my character's intelligence, allow to do him any significant harm.

Luc, however, is an idiot. He can lose just by being an overconfident fool, or messing up his own ideas.

[Artifex Felicis]

Ahhh, Powergaming, actually what I think is the least broken rule on Althanas. By nearly anyone.

Might as well say congrats to the ROG mostly for this, since it's you guys who are the ones who stoppe dthe flow of it. Though, to be honest Anyone sort of serious about writing on Althanas doesn't truly powergame after a warning or two. I can think of one or two examples outside of the norm, and to name names that'd be Dan and Lye, for though who remember the latter. Dan's awesome because he makes it cool, and isn't just "ROFL I CSAT MRTEOR LV 9999999." I haven't been in many threads with him, yet of those I read it's also regulated in a way, and controlled. Lye was the same in a diffrent way. He's guy was simply insane, and while not physically losing a fight, lost it mentally. I belive Seth once FELL from a tower, to his splattery death, and Lye thought he lost. It's how it's played, not so much the power.

In a way, I like the way I have Leon now. I don't think he's ever really lost a fight, ever, but there's a large catch. One example is my recant thread with Witchblade. Despite the fact he trounced her ass by the end, he was still stabbed in the gut, burned slightly, and had a major concussion. That and having the equivelent of a bad wedgie self inflicted so he didn't fall to his death. Leon, despite all his clever tricks, simply doesn't care enough about his well-being to really make a huge amount of effort in saving himself. But he isn't stupid either, he'd only run into a knife if he knew he could get something out of it.

Either way playing a strong man or a weak one, I think stretching stuff in profile is actually sometimes a good thing to do. Nobody suddenly gets better at a fireball if it didn't "Glow hotter than usual" or somethign every once in a while. If people expand, it should be noted. If not, then nothing much out of the way. Heck, just LEARNING how to do something I think is a great skill. Like being able to do a puzzle or something while listening and comprehending everything someone else says.

Really just my veiw, I'll probably change it later as I veiw stuff, but that's about it.

[Letho]

I like rules myself, so primarily I think of powergaming as something a character does that, according to his profile, he is unable to do. Mind you, I'm not talking about the times when somebody bends the reality a little bit to do a blackflip off the wall or something like that. Desperate times calls for desperate measures and sometimes people are able to go above and beyond their abilites to get out of a pickle. However, when above and beyond strays in that regions where the character turns invincible and does things without any consequences, that is powergaming. It's really a rather vague line when you think about it. I remember fighting a battle where my opponent dodged everything I did and yet my opponent didn't think that he was powergaming.

I mean, is it realistic that a high-level master swordsman doesn't take a hit in a battle with a novice? Of course. But is it realistic for that same master swordsman to have a twenty post battle with an average swordsman? I think not. Most real swordfights last seconds, not minutes, and a master swordsman would have his opponent down in three strikes or less. But then again, where's the fun in that? Nowhere, unless you're fighting a bunch of faceless NPCs. On that note, I'd take Izvilvin on... and kick his ass silly. :cool:

[The Bard]

From the all knowing wikipedia

Roleplaying or acting in such a manner that another player is forced or coerced into an action that he or she does not wish to take.

Declaring another character's actions for himself, without that player's permission.

Stating what happened to another player character without the player's consent.

Presuming that your own attack or physical action against another character was successful without giving the character the chance to dodge or react otherwise.

Forcing one's roleplay on another, unwilling, player.

Imposing emotional reactions on other characters and 'thoughtposing,' or posing your thoughts of a given character, thus giving that character no chance to react.

Conversely, declaring that all actions taken against your character have no effect.
For example, if Player A and B were to interact in an RP MU*, and Player A posed throwing a punch at Player B, he would be powergaming if he were to pose:

Player A punches Player B in the face, knocking him senseless.

The above example gives Player B no chance to react. Whereas if Player A were to pose:

Player A aims a swinging uppercut at Player B.

- Player B would still have the freedom to pose his own reaction.



Which is mostly what describes what it is or what I veiw it as.

[AdventWings]

Hmm, I do believe what Bard stated fell mostly in the category of "Bunnying" by Althanas standards, but if that's what Wikipedia says... Eh. We could go with something else.

I think most of you have covered most of what OUR views of powergaming is. It mostly boils down to "Making circumstantially improbable and impossible actions that defy the Laws of Action and Reaction."

Doing backflips off a wall if you're thrown against it some five feet above ground is, for quite a few of us, quite probably in the direst of circumstances. But for a non-enhanced rookie human swordsman to suddenly jump twenty feet into the air (with nothing magical or mechanical to aid him in any way) and does a devastating "Cyclone Barrage Laser Storm Attack" (which was not in his profile) and literally kill a stone golem the size of his house... Well, that's a pretty extreme case of powergaming, so I'll see if I can sum it up some other way...

So... sum it up for me...

Making circumstantially improbable and impossible actions that defy the Laws of Action and Reaction... That's what my take on Powergaming is. Not making any mistakes is a fine line to tread on, especially for the novice and rookies of any field.

[Cyrus the virus]

Nobody kicks Izvilvin's ass silly. Especially anyone who isn't a wizard.

[The Bard]

Nobody kicks Izvilvin's ass silly. Especially anyone who isn't a wizard.

we will see about that my friend now that Im back I feel like a whole new man even ask jesus

[AsukaStrikes]

Get back here and prepare to get your backside whipped, Izvilvin!

[Cyrus the virus]

You people are soooo dreaming. Dreaming fanciful dreams of butterflies and maple trees, if you think Izvilvin can be defeated. He is the Hulk Hogan of Althanas, in that he obnoxiously wins every fight regardless of how much someone else should win.

[Letho]

You mean, he's the best at pretending to fight? ;) I do remember poking Izvilvin in the gut once upon a time. And him bleeding to death. Can't really say when did that happen. :P

But let's get back on the topic. I think what Reiko also wanted discussed is a different aspect of powergaming, where characters sort of have the ultimate knowledge and clarity in certain situations. I agree that that is powergaming too, when you're like in a maze filled with traps and you know how to bypass every single one of them.

[Reiko]

I don’t think of stumbling whenever facing an opponent of lesser power, as there are other more interesting ways to give the underdog a chance in the fight. You could have the fight be more favorable to the underdog’s fighting style or you could have a handicap that would grant the underdog a fighting chance or even an advantage or maybe don’t even care what word is next to swordsman skill and act as if they’re on an equal level. Although I do agree that the ‘I swing my sword’ is something that might as well be blocked for lack of effort. I just feel there’s always a way to keep the fight interesting by having us wonder who will win.

[Bearded Gnome]

You mean, he's the best at pretending to fight? ;) I do remember poking Izvilvin in the gut once upon a time. And him bleeding to death. Can't really say when did that happen. :P

But let's get back on the topic. I think what Reiko also wanted discussed is a different aspect of powergaming, where characters sort of have the ultimate knowledge and clarity in certain situations. I agree that that is powergaming too, when you're like in a maze filled with traps and you know how to bypass every single one of them.

I got insanely close to beating him. I mean come on, he beat me by one point! Bummer.

But that aspect of Roleplaying is what I call GodModding. The name kinda explains itself.

[AsukaStrikes]

Yeah, I definitely agree with Gnomy here that Godmoding = Powergaming.

OK... anything new to the argument? Or is this discussed well out of what's left to be discussed?

[Cyrus the virus]

Eh, ignoring the word next to your character's weapon skill is equivilent to ignoring all the work gone into playing as him, evolving him into someone strong and capable. I wouldn't be opposed to letting my opponent have a neat advantage, or be suddenly more skilled than he usually is, though.

[Lady Blackwell]

well my view of powergaming would have to be something that isnt in your characters profile, but i do kinda let it slide if he thinks it up in the fight or his fireball gets bigger and glows hotter when he's angry thats all acceptable by me but making a lvl 0 guy godlike or trying to (looks at self) cyrus can vouch for this i was once very guilty of pwergaming for instance. having a few bandits jump on your back and just throwing them off without having extra strength in your profile is a bit powergaming. no?

anyways powergamin to me summed up is. An ability that is not or cleary stated in one's profile being used out of the blue and in the middle of a fight is power gaming.