View Full Version : Mystic Theory 101
Welcome to the first Mystic Theory discussion thread.
It is here that you can discuss your character's methods of magic-manipulation, theories on mystical origin, and IRL preternature. For those of you who absolutely exude an intrest in the mystical and magical, this is your thread.
Also, I plan on in-depth discussions with our other resident mystics on mystical "ritualogy," including how magical rituals really work(or are supposed to, at least).
Our resident expert on Shamanism, Foresight, Spiritual Auras and Rune Theory is Karuka Tida.
The resident expert on Historical Mythology and Religious Mysticism is Zook Murnig.
I am the resident expert on Metaphysics, energy-manipulation, and Evocation.
Atzar Kellon is the resident expert on ancient Central-American Mythology.
If you have any questions about anything supernatural, feel free to ask one of us about it. We will answer to the best of our ability.
We are currently looking for experts in Wicca, Psionic Theory, Summoning, Rhythmic Theory(think bard), and Enchantment.
How'd you beat me in energy manipulation? :p
We're real students of magic, Atzar.
I really do have my runic stuff sitting around me right now, Zook really IS a student of Jewish Mysticism, and as far as I can tell, hamnat's picking up her magic on her own.
I don't see how we need another aural expert, though. I've been able to see and categorize auras since I was a kid.
Note that this is strictly knowledge-based. The above stated experts really do know about those topics, not just their characters. How am I an expert, do you ask? Simple. I am able to manipulate energy IRL. And I know a good deal on the subject. That's how.
Ah, gotcha... you made it sound like this is more based on our characters than it is on us as real people.
No need to get defensive.
Yes...the main reason I put it here instead of the Flying Stone Tavern is because I want to know about your character's abilities as well. If it was all RL stuff, it would have been in the Flying Stone Tavern.
Main reason that it sounds like it was based off of our characters is because our characters abilities just happen to based off of our own(I, myself, did that intentionally).
How am I an expert, do you ask? Simple. I am able to manipulate energy IRL.There is so no spoon. In real life I wield a gunblade that fires 14mm bullets. With one hand. :cool:
Hey, this is a no-sarcasm zone. Strictly magic-talk. No making fun of the mystics or there will be many fireballs.
Hamnat, may I ask exactly what these fields you're all experts at are? I'm not familiar with half these terms.
Let me define
Karuka
Shamnaism: Ritualistic magick often originating from tribal traditions.
Foresight: Seeing the future.
Rune Theory: Crafting and using runes to magical effect. Also, rune-inscription.
Spiritual Auras: Classification of one's spiritual energy and the presence it gives off to those who can see auras.
Zook Murnig
Historical Mythology: The study of mythology from historical cultures, including the ancient Greeks, Romans, Norse, etc.
Religious Mysticism: Mystical traditions and rituals originating from religious ceremonies and beliefs.
Hamnat
Psionic Theory: The study of psychic phenomena, including premonitions, telekinesis, telepathy, etc.
Metaphysics: The study of abstract ideals of existance's make-up, such as the possibility of multiple universes, the dimensions, spiritual effects on the real world, etc..
Energy-manipulation: The study of how to control energy, and how it acts and reacts in all circumstances.
Evocation: The art of magically creating energy where none existed before and using it to potent effect. Elemental magic often uses evocation to fuel itself. Also, the summoning of spirits as a catalyst for supernatural effects and abilities.
Hamnat, may I ask exactly what these fields you're all experts at are? I'm not familiar with half these terms.
Heh, me either. So I'd like the clarification as well...
Also, how exactly does your RL practices (and I'm trying not to be a skeptic here) relate to your IC practices? Do you use them in the same way? Or have you touched it up here and there for your characters?
Stick me up there as expert on the mythology of Pre-Columbian America, then. And I can actually claim a fair amount of knowledge for that sort of stuff. Pre-Columbian culture - the Aztecs, in particular - is a long-time hobby of mine, and I know a good deal about it.
Tigereye
01-30-07, 03:33 PM
Hey, this is a no-sarcasm zone. Strictly magic-talk. No making fun of the mystics or there will be many fireballs.
What do you mean? Are you saying you find the thought that he fires that beast of a gun one handed is implausible?
And also: what does this real magic have to do with our cool althanas magic?
This is a discussion thread on both topics: Althanas-magic and IRL magic. Although, it's not about only magic.
@Atzar: Do you know when the Mayan Calander predicts that this cycle of existance will end?
But you still didn't answer our questions about what exactly half of those crazy words mean...
FYI: I'm in the army, my weapon is the SAW (squad automatic weapon) and I can fire that bitch one handed... but my charry doesn't have one... at least not on Althanas. ;)
If my definitions didn't help, look it up on Wikipedia. I can't explain any better than I already did.
This is a discussion thread on both topics: Althanas-magic and IRL magic. Although, it's not about only magic.
@Atzar: Do you know when the Mayan Calander predicts that this cycle of existance will end?
The most common answer is December of 2012.
Hmm...I always thought it was December 23, 2008...jerks won't let us have christmas....
No, that's a different prediction entirely. That has more to do with Christian conspiracy theory and nothing at all to do with the Mayan calendar.
Even so, they'll likely screw you out of Christmas - December 20, 21, and 22 are the three most common dates in the end of the Mayan cycle.
But if we were going by that, it would have ended a while back...because I KNOW they missed the most recent Aztec ceremony.
Although the Mayans weren't the only ones to predict around the end of 2012.
In answer to your question, Tigereye, for my magic IC, Druidic magic was often much more subtle than the magic I gave Karuka, but I had to give her something for the sake of competition. Her runic divinations and pendulum use, however, are exactly identical to mine.
Haha! It seems I've been outwitted for once on the subject of mythology. I definently did not know that. I take my...something...off to you! And no, that something will not be my robe...
@Karuka: The most recent one was in 1618, I believe, but that was the 12th date of the cycle. The 13th, by their beliefs, is the one that begins a new era.
Keep in mind that the Mayan rendition doesn't necessarily predict the end of the world. The end of the era, and a significant event, but not the end of the world.
The Valkyrie
01-30-07, 04:25 PM
Actually the most recent one major one was around 1865 --- the assassination of President Lincoln and the Civil War as well as several other events worldwide were predicted. I actually was doing some research on their priest that made these predictions. He also accurately predicted the Amercian and French Revolutions as well as the coming of the bearded white man to the Yucatan.
@Hamnat: You're too young.
@Valkyrie: Really? I haven't heard of that... was this Aztec or Mayan?
Yes, well, when Lucien posts in a thread, everything changes. Wouldn't have made that little comment about the robe if it weren't for him...
The Valkyrie
01-30-07, 04:36 PM
Really. It was Mayan. I can't remember the priest's name right now, but I was researching their calendar, which they actually have I think it was five: one that is 260 days (human gestation), one which is 365 days (actually 1/10000 more accurate than the modern calendar), one which was 56 years, one which was cyclical but I can't remember the time period (the long calendar they called it) which was what the prophet or priest was working off of, and which goes off the wobble in the earth's axis, and the last which was the one they used to determine the end of the world (Dec 21, 2012) which is when the earth finishes a wobble on its axis at the same time that something else major happens (I can't remember what now, but its to do with a galactic event).
@Hamnat: You're too young.Hamnat's character, Shenjara, is 21. And a redhead. She could take the robe off instead. I volunteer to save her from all the lustful onlookers. ;)
Bohemia
01-30-07, 04:58 PM
I don't beleive in magic IRL, in fact, I see the concept as sort of silly. "Oh look, an amulet that will protect me from evil spirits that cause bad luck!" What if you, I don't know, stop bitching about bad test scores, or tripping, and maybe do something realistic about it? I'm sorry, but I've read the books on such, primarily Wicca since my mother was into it, and it all seemed like some sort of...well, quick fix. I'm not saying don't believe in it, yourself, if you do, but it seems sort of ludicrous to me.
As far as IC goes, I've never been particularly fond of the use of magic. It's fun to cut loose and just barbecue suckas with July, but aside from that, it'd be pretty stupid for earth bound Jon to learn magic, and Dan has had maybe one spell, and that was still focusing on his strength.
The Valkyrie
01-30-07, 05:02 PM
Uh-oh I sense a fight, which is why I'm not sure this thread should have been allowed on the site to begin with. No flame wars please.
Thanks
Bohemia
01-30-07, 05:07 PM
Ah, I'm not flaming anyone, at least intentionally. I'm just saying that I'm not a fan or believer in magic. If people have some sort of problem, we can work out the issues in an IC battle.
The Valkyrie
01-30-07, 05:11 PM
That wasn't necessarily aimed at you, but at all parties involved.
grim137
01-30-07, 05:16 PM
I don't beleive in magic IRL, in fact, I see the concept as sort of silly. "Oh look, an amulet that will protect me from evil spirits that cause bad luck!" What if you, I don't know, stop bitching about bad test scores, or tripping, and maybe do something realistic about it? I'm sorry, but I've read the books on such, primarily Wicca since my mother was into it, and it all seemed like some sort of...well, quick fix. I'm not saying don't believe in it, yourself, if you do, but it seems sort of ludicrous to me.
I have to agree with everything he said here and really have nothing to add (excluding his references to some of his personal experiances of course).
ICly I never really put a whole lot of thought into my character's magic. When he was orginally created I kind of ripped off his abilities from DBZ (in my defence I created this character originally when I was like 14 or 15) so I always used those ideas though I did expand upon them. In this I mean that my character channels his spirit energy into magical spells and abilities similar to what you see in DBZ and Yu-yu Hakasho.
Really. It was Mayan. I can't remember the priest's name right now, but I was researching their calendar, which they actually have I think it was five: one that is 260 days (human gestation), one which is 365 days (actually 1/10000 more accurate than the modern calendar), one which was 56 years, one which was cyclical but I can't remember the time period (the long calendar they called it) which was what the prophet or priest was working off of, and which goes off the wobble in the earth's axis, and the last which was the one they used to determine the end of the world (Dec 21, 2012) which is when the earth finishes a wobble on its axis at the same time that something else major happens (I can't remember what now, but its to do with a galactic event).
Awesome. I knew about the multiple calendars, but I never knew that they had accurately pinpointed 1865 as the marker for an important event.
To the skeptics:
Not everything is real. You can't kamehameha someone into oblivion in the real world.
But I will respect that not everyone has attachments to levels of existance beyond the corporeal. I may feel twinges of pity that you're missing out on something so grand, but I will accept that you believe what you will believe, and what you cannot account for, you will dismiss.
This thread is not for you, although I'll have you know that Reiki is a very respectable form of magic in the mystic community, Mr. "DBZ and Yu-Yu Hakusho."
I do not work magic in real life, save for my runic divinations.
But let's open up another area of magic for the general public.
There are evils that lurk the world and attempt to possess human psyches, or traumatize them.
Many people dismiss them as nightmares.
But there are others, those sensitive to the ebbs and tides of the dreamworld, that can venture out and among these evils and fight the worst of them.
These battles typically manifest in nightmares for the Dreamer (different from dreamer). On a good night, it might be a really weird dream. You might run across some friendly faces, too, but this is very rare. (had chocolate with a dream-aquaintence one time, it was AMAZING. Best ever...and calorie free).
I am one of these Dreamers. I typically spend nine months of the year, almost every night, out and about, keeping the evils at bay. Of course, this is very stressful, so I take a break every three months. We all do.
The skeptic will say "delusions," or "BS."
But I know from experience the reality of these dreams. There are other levels of existence than ours...bordering ours, merging with ours, in constant communion with the Higher parts of the human psyche. It isn't an easily controlled form of "magic", and when I was little I'd get "killed" fairly regularly and not Dream at all for many months.
Chances are there's little evidence of this dream theory, so believe it or not as you like.
But I'll be watching out for ya as I sleep.
Yes, well, when Lucien posts in a thread, everything changes. Wouldn't have made that little comment about the robe if it weren't for him... Please don't ever say that again. I know you didn't mean it disrespectfully, but that's how I took it.
It is here that you can discuss your character's methods of magic-manipulation, theories on mystical origin, and IRL preternature. For those of you who absolutely exude an intrest in the mystical and magical, this is your thread.
I'm pretty sure, with your quote above, I stayed within the parameters of the thread. So why would you say that?
Bohemia
01-30-07, 05:56 PM
If you think this thread isn't for me, I guess it's because you haven't talked to me once I got home at about three AM from some crappy broken down house or old road. Understandable, I don't like starting conversations on instant messengers, but it's beside the point.
From my standpoint, I only believe in one facet of the supernatural; ghosts. Why? Because I've had some freaky experiences with everything that can be pointed towards the incorporeal. In fact, my friends are so into ghost hunting thy use me as a compass. I don't profess to ever seeing anything, since I'm sure they won't be seen unless they want to be, but I have a strong idea I can feel them. However, even though I believe in ghosts, and somewhat in demons, I don't believe in the use of tarot cards, magic, horoswcopes, even god. It sort of makes me mad that someone can control my fate, or just predict what I'm going to do with a set of cards.
Therefore, you could probably tell I'm stubborn and bullheaded, haha.
Aside from that, I prefer to live in the real and now. Sure, there could be a possibility that all that sort that I choose not to believe in could be real, but I'll accept nothing unless I get hard, absolute proof that I can see, which is what made me accept the existence of lingering spirits.
Is there an actual point to this thread? Or is it random people professing that they can do some sort of magic IRL... which is somewhat rediculous. I had a friend that believed she was a which because they were Wicca. Heh... whatever.
Personally I find this thread a huge spam fest. I really don't know what the purpose of the thread was to begin with, since Hamnat just stated that he and two other's were "experts" on certain topics.
So far I've seen that this thread has nothing to do with anything... and would like to see it closed. Seriously, there really is no reason other than to increase the number of posts for the three resident "experts", which yet again has no point on Althanas.
The POINT of this thread is to discuss magic from the real world, its proper use, and the ways we translate it to Althanas.
It is to aid the inexperienced non-user to some understanding of HOW magic works to make it more realistic for their character, and if the skeptics will stop spamming, it can get to the point.
If you've nothing to contribute, read, don't post here.
THANK you.
grim137
01-30-07, 06:07 PM
If you think this thread isn't for me...
Actually I'm pretty sure she was referring to me with that "this thread isn't for you comment". Though (and correct me if I'm wrong here) her point is null in void since Hamnat did specifically say that she wanted us to discuss the IC aspects of our characters magic. I was merely using those well known shows as a reference to my ideas regarding my character's magic. The entire point was that (as I mentioned in my previous post) my character draws his magic from his soul and channels that into his magical abilities.
As for ghosts, I don't even believe in that. I'm firmly a man of science. I am not saying that you shouldn't believe in such things, I'm just saying I don't. Keep in mind that most so called "sightings" of ghosts can be proven as bullshit, so if they do exists Bohemia does have a good point in them only being seen if they want to be seen.
Edit: Kakura, us skeptics aren't spamming by any means. The point of this thread was to discuss magic and that is precisly what we are doing.
Seriously, calm the fuck down. I'm not joking.
I asked a question earlier that everyone ignored, though I laugh at the fact that you people actually think you can do magic.\
It was, IF you can actually practice magic, how does it translate compared to your characters, and have you changed it in any way's? IC'ly, is your magic the same as what you pretend to cast in the real world... and I only seem so mean because you gave me attitude. If you had actually bothered to answer that earlier I wouldn't be so irratible... but you had to give me attitude...
Feh.
CALM DOWN.
The way Hamnat put it, this thread is meant to 'educate' people, both in real life and on Althanas, about the reality of magic. The 'skeptics', as you call them, have as much of a right to post here as anybody else. Whether it's to learn something about a topic they know little about or just to offer their own opinions on the subject, it's not fair to exclude them from the conversation. You're essentially trying to write them off because they don't agree with you, and I don't care for that at all.
I have mixed feelings about whether this thread should be closed or not. If it keeps going the direction it's going, then it should be closed - Valkyrie appears to be right when she forecasted this descent into a flame war. If you can manage to keep this civil, then I think it's a unique thread that can actually have the effect that Hamnat wishes. Magic-using characters could benefit from this thread, but I think this probably belongs in Flying Stone Tavern anyway. Only a couple posts have managed to say anything about a character, while the rest focused on spiritual beliefs and mythology.
So no need to be insulting or defensive. Try to have a mature conversation about this, if everybody wishes this to be kept open. This is directed at everybody.
I apologize, Lucien. This illness of mine is beginning to drain me. I'm starting to lose my hold on conciousness(an active control of my impulses) and I'm pretty much going autopilot. It will probably take another minute to finish the next three lines of text. Ugh.....so tired....this is more than just some sickness...
EDIT: It took me so long to type it that I got almost a full page of ninja'ing.
Zook Murnig
01-30-07, 06:18 PM
I, personally, never claimed to be an expert. I am merely a student of the occult arts of the Qabbalah. As to the claims of the "easy way out," this is far from true. It takes years of practice and study before you can even be recognized by most organizations as a magician proper. Mastery, likewise, requires a lifetime.
I practice the arts out of a need to feel closer to God, as well as a different way to look at things. Even if the arts aren't real, the thought processes associated can help reorganize the way you file thoughts, memories, and attributions. I have, since beginning my study of the Qabbalah a mere five months ago, begun to see connections between things more clearly than ever before.
As to "solving all your problems" with magic, I do not believe this is even close to possible. Magic, to me, is an assistant and a tool, aiding me in my endeavors -- not doing them for me.
As for my past in the metaphysical arts, I took Tae Kwon Do as a youth, where my grandmaster taught the class about ki, which I then, years later as a senior in high school, realized was similar to psionics, the use of psychic energy called psi in energy manipulations. My psionic studies lead me to the Veritas Society (I will not link here, but if you are interested, simply ask), where I found an entire community devoted to Psionics, Magic(k), and Body Energy Arts. I gave up on psi as there was not enough agreeing information to proceed. Then, six months later, shortly before my family and my girlfriend's family discovering the pregnancy, I returned to Veritas. It was there that I looked into Magic, reading all of the articles they had for novices, and settling on Elemental Magic in the Qabbalah as an appropriate paradigm. I purchased a pair of books on the subject, both by Israel Regardie, and downloaded online e-books on the Hermetic Sciences for study into this area.
My character's magic is strongly based upon my own magical paradigm, though I fudge areas I don't know much about, as well as the potential effects of such magic.
In closing, how did this get so far in a few short hours?
@Dirge and everyone else: This thread was meant to be a reference as to how one can roleplay preternatural events, such as spellcasting. It is also somewhere where people interested in magic can discuss theories on casting routines, mythology they find interesting, and enjoy discussing something not necessarily real.
It is not meant for people who have no interest, or even a dislike, in magic and the supernatural. Please, let us get to the real topic and not flame each other over whether IRL magic is real or not. I believe in it, you don't. We understand that. This will only be a spamfest if the people that don't care about what we are really trying to do make it into one.
I apologize to anyone offended by the words typed here. It was not my intention to have that happen. If you want to learn about the supernatural, then feel free to stick around. If not, please leave or carry out conversation that is relevant to the topic.
Also, as Zook said, magic is never the easy way out. It isn't even completely reliable. It will work if it works, and it won't if doesn't. It's never an end-all solution. In fact, the only difference between magic-users and mundane people is the methods used. Magic only gives a slight advantage over others, in the end. And against skill, magic is worthless.
Zook Murnig
01-30-07, 06:50 PM
None of us, Hamnat aside, proclaims themselves to be experts in their given fields. We merely are knowledgable about them. If this thread is to be closed, then at least consider it a reference point for those interested in learning more of our practices, or of IRL/IC magic in general.
Atzar has informed me that this thread will, as mentioned above, be, regrettably, be closed. I have requested that he allow a short period of time to see if the thread's ire may die down. I request that hostilities be ended here, and open-mindedness follow.
Hamnat, you are not a mod, and there will always be those who disbelieve. Hell, I was among them for a long time. I even doubt it myself from time to time, at least as much as whether I am going about it correctly.
Grim and Bohemia. Your skepticism is not without merit. One should always take everything with a grain of salt, and one's own experiences should be one's guide. You are welcome to play Devil's Advocate as long as you like, so long as you remain non-judgmental in your snipes.
Dirge, I apologize for your question being ignored as long as it was. I regret my absence, which caused me to be unable to answer, as well as the responses of Hamnat and other slights.
To the mods, I ask that you give this time. I did not expect this to go into the Role-Player's Corner, as I expected the thread to be mostly about IRL studies and practices. As such, I had not anticipated the turn of events that has occurred. If you see fit to move this to the Tavern, then please do. IC events and practices are often discussed in that forum, anyway.
Now, let us begin with a fresh slate. None of us is an expert. We are merely knowledgable and willing to share in that knowledge. We will answer any questions we are able, and assist in any way we can.
Perhaps I was mistaken by using the word expert. I apologize, again, for any confusion my use of it has caused. It was...an exageration. For those of you who are interested, ask more specific question than the previously asked ones.
This thread is not meant to make people believe in magic. I can't make anyone do anything. I can help you, however, to understand the complexity of the art, its benefits, its drawbacks, and why it should or shouldn't be used.
The Valkyrie
01-30-07, 07:13 PM
The problem with asking someone to make their questions about this topic more specific is that it is nearly impossible to do so if you are asking questions about a completely unfamiliar topic. As you are the knowledgable ones here, then unfortunately you will have to take it on yourselves to determine the appropriate way to answer the questions of those who have them, rather than putting the responsibility on their shoulders to find out on their own or to specify something they know none of the specifics of.
By specifics, something like: "What does this word mean?" "Why is that important?" "How does this work?" instead of the very general "What does everything you said mean?"
The first problem that I have with this thread is the fact that nobody here has any right to call themselves experts. Rather than "Mystic Theory 101", as you have called it, this should simply be a discussion between equals about magic, be it in character or in real life. I thought I'd know more about Central America than anyone else here, but Valkyrie's already put me in my place there ;)
The second problem that I have with this thread is the fact that you're trying to exclude people who have different opinions than you. If that's actually enforced, then this thread will have little to talk about and will go nowhere. This discussion should be open to anybody.
The third problem that I have with this thread is the fact that Valkyrie was absolutely right. It's already come to the brink of a flame war once, and I'd rather it didn't happen again.
So be civil, be open-minded, and be respectful. I've already told you that this is an interesting subject, and I'd like it to stay open.
First point: The title was meant to be a little bit humorous, but that obviously failed.
Second point: On the contrary. I try to exclude noone. I asked that if they don't want to discuss this kind of stuff that they not try to ruin it for those of us who do, and those who aren't into magic, say that while still trying to move the thread along instead of flaming.
Third Point: It isn't the fault of Zook's, mine, or anybody that wanted to discuss this peacefully. It is the fault of those who don't want us to be able to discuss it publicly and those who responded to them with angry words. I just want to talk about mystical stuff. Those who don't, why bother getting into this thread, then?
I'm trying to be open-minded and civil, but it's hard when people are trying to ruin something you just started. It saddens me that people have distorted something I tried doing in an unprovocative manner into something that reminds me of the movie Contact. I just want to talk about something I find interesting with others who also find it interesting. Nothing more, nothing less.
असतोमा सद्गमय। तमसोमा ज्योतिर् गमया।
मृत्योर्मामृतं गमय॥
Asato mā sad gamaya
Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya
Mṛtyormā amṛtam gamaya
Aum śānti śānti śāntiḥ
(Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad I.iii.28)
Lead me from non-truth to truth;
Lead me from darkness to light;
Lead me from mortality to immortality.
Everyone has a different truth.
A Wiccan's darkness may be a Christian's light.
Perhaps we recycle after joining the Brahmin for a bit, perhaps we are divided into Heaven and Hell.
This is one truth (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2007-01-16). Rather, a series of truths to certain people.
Now, can we all chant a mantra, say a prayer, do a meditation, and just settle in and start discussing magic like the thread is meant to?
I already asked a question though, and that is the problem I'm having with this thread. It's might be meant for discussion, but people (multiple people) have overlooked my question for the past 2-3 pages and simply argued amongst themselves during those 10-20 posts...
If magic is the topic, IRL and IC, I have a right to believe that it isn't real IRL, but I'd still like to know what fantasies you use for your own IC characters...
Karuka is not a Druid herself, but the culture she grew up in is Druidic, and she did receive any training she could get.
As such, the gods of Ireland and the Nordic gods are important to her beliefs and her magic, and she believes in Lord Shiva and has a general but vague idea of the Brahmin.
Ataraxis
01-30-07, 10:14 PM
As I've no real experience with the preternatural, save for bizarre sightings and odd sensations here and there that can very well be symptoms of a high alcohol concentration in my blood or just the nifty tricks of paranoia! I've been curious about what is beyond the borders of normality, though I'm not a magic buff of any sort, though it might have to be with my aversion toward categorizing things under a single term that has the potential to be taken lightly or too seriously.
Just an observation: if you want to side with science (though I will concede that what I will refer to is purely theoretical) then it should not be quite so easy to dismiss the existence of, let's say it, 'magic'. I'm not going to summarise the theory of there being ten dimensions, but if you know of it, then you can understand why 'magic', which I qualify as a 'force' or ensemble of 'forces' whose innerworkings we can't explain, still has the potential of existing. I'm not saying that the unexplainable in our universe is 'magic', just that there are forces that are still unknown to us and that can potentially be put to use, or at least observed.
If someone proves that there is no such thing that can be considered as 'magic' in this universe, it doesn't mean that it won't exist in one of the many branches the big bang could've taken, including it within its own set of laws. Perhaps 'magic' is a force with the same problem as gravity, the weakest force of nature, because its bulk is contained within another dimension (by this, I do not mean alternate world, but something additional to depth, length, height and time), as it is only 'sieved' into our universe by the location where our dimensions and the 'trap' dimension cross. It might be so weak that it cannot be observed with precision here, or so weak that its effects are easily dismissed when compared to gravity, electromagnetic, weak nuclear and strong nuclear forces.
So yeah, all that babble wasn't meant to prove anything. In fact, my argument is that there's no way to have a discussion if you throw in opinions set in stone (again, by opinion, I do not mean what you think: I mean presumptions, ideas and sentiments that someone calls true simply on impression). You can share things that you have thought about thoroughly, and seek other points of view from people with whom you discuss on an equal level, rather than pointing out faults in the loops of someone's arguments and dismissing the validity of their claims on a whim. If someone says he or she can use magic, do not automatically assume that they are fanatics, that they are supernatural buffs, that they are helpless attention-seekers or that they are weak-minded people mislead by an abusive figure of authority that feeds them with falsities for their own personal gain. These are stereotypes, and though they can sometimes apply, they should not be used to label people you barely know anything about. The same applies to those who state that they don't believe in magic or other preternatural phenomena: they are not disenchanted cynics, close-minded science addicts or hot-headed schmoozers who oppose an idea for the sake of argument.
All in all, believe what you want; but when it comes to voicing your beliefs, do so for the sake of a smoothless discussion, not a heated argument. Discussions are for better insight. No one expects someone to change his or her beliefs overnight only by talking with someone whose outlook on life and its mysteries are dissimilar. What one does expect, however, is that both parties leave the discussion satisfied and more knowledgeable.
What I wrote may lacks structure, as I wrote this without a plan of some sort, but I hope my point of view was clear nonetheless, and that it has been well-received. If not, then I apologize! My wish is truly for a pleasant discussion, and that people will participate by offering constructive views and comments. I'd hate to see the incipience of sourness start in Althanas, as I had come here expecting none of what has become the bane of other such forums.
And yes, I've lost track in all this rambling.
I'll proceed to offering my outlook on magic later on, if people choose to keep this thread open (I'm not too sure what the verdict was).
Also, here's the question that Dirge asked a few pages ago, I think:
Also, how exactly does your RL practices (and I'm trying not to be a skeptic here) relate to your IC practices? Do you use them in the same way? Or have you touched it up here and there for your characters?
Lastly, I'd have no problem in deleting this post if anyone finds it irrelevant or after-the-fact.
Elrundir
01-30-07, 11:22 PM
I like to think of magic as science that we just haven't discovered yet. I don't know if I always believed that, really, but the past couple of years have changed be quite a bit in these sorts of things. I figure, if you were to go back in time and show someone from the middle ages a camera, or a television, or an MP3 player or something like that, they'd claim it was magic too. Hell, there are tribes who believe cameras are magic, are there not? Of course, if someone from our future came here and showed us some machine that immediately cures any illness, or teleports us from one planet to another in the blink of an eye, we'd just call it "advanced technology", not "magic", probably.
Well, I guess that all just boils down to semantics on how you define 'magic'. Maybe they're not all that different depending on how you look at it, at least without regards to supernatural stuff like ghosts, which I won't touch upon right now. That's my late-night opinion on it anyway.
Chidori Draconid
01-30-07, 11:29 PM
Real Life Magic
Rajani alerted me to this thread as soon as I got in the door. I've read every post and here's what I have to say. For those of you who believe in magic in real life, I have nothing against you. I'm like an agnostic when it comes to real life supernatural. If it can be proven to me in person then I'll believe it, but I have a question (honest and serious). If science proves the existance and use of magic and the supernatural, what will we call it then?
Let me also point out that some of you (I wont name any names. You know who you are.) are using instigating language to start a flame war, and you should be repremanded for such. The participants of this thread have wasted several pages going on the defensive and nothing has gotten done because you've provoked them. Now on to the subject.
Althanas Magic
I make little effort to describe the source of my character's magic and the magic of those around him. However, I have literaly drowned Chidori Draconid in mythology from many regions. Draco, God of the Dragons is Chidori's father, and his constellation hangs above us as we speak. Nu Gua, the landlord of Chidori's current residence, is a creator goddess from ancient Asian Mythology who made the first humand from clay and blood and then taught them how to reproduce. Nothing eludes to her personality in the myths, but I made her a lustful lighthearted matchmaker in my stories. Nu Gua's home is the Ethiopia Estate, which was in Greek Mythology a Phoenician Kingdom where the gods and privilaged mortals liked to party. Nu Gua's Ethiopia Estate constantly hosts parties where the goddess can do her matchmaking among the whose - who of Althanas. Chidori's girlfriend is Avakra Ambul, the divine daughter of the ocean. In my quest Passion's Product they make love in a forest and a divine plant grows there the next day, which is based on the Native Amarican myth of the tobacco plant. Although Avakra's all original here father isn't. Her father is Apa or Ap in Hindu Mythology, who is the personification of the ocean. Chidori's wife (through unwanted arranged marriage) is the divine representative of a creature constant in almost all mythology. I'm not going to reveal her identity just yet. You'll have to read Passion's Product to find out (it's not dead). If you have read it already, you'll get the impression that she's a total bitch. The irony is she's a creature that is considered benign in almost every mythological tradition.
I plan on introducing more mythology in my future writings. One of which being the Native American Thunderbird, which makes a Dragon look like a salamander.
Uukan Kimari
01-31-07, 12:46 AM
This is one truth (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2007-01-16). Rather, a series of truths to certain people.
Anyone that can quote Mr. Deegan is sexy. <3
*hugs his poster signed by Mooky*
Real "magic", abilities, and studies
I have done studies on psychic phenomena, and have come to categorize psychic ability into 3 general levels: Dormant, Passive, and Acute. I, myself, am a passive psychic.
A passive psychic is someone who has premonitions somewhat often, but they may not always be relevant. They also are very empathic, almost bordering telepathic. They may be wave-amplifiers(stand next to a staticy radio, it becomes clear), slightly telekinetic, able to sense spirits, and get "vibes." But in all, what separates them is that they can not use their abilities actively. The telepathy, spirit-sense, and telekinesis will happen or it won't. The psychic cannot control it.
I will go into detail on Dormant and Acute at a different time.
I am also able to sense and manipulate spiritual energy. It is a bit like Reiki, but with the added ability to "see" energy flowing. I have done studies on energy flow and have heightened knowledge of how energy reacts to certain stimuli, how to use energy amplifiers and wards to efficient effect, and where an energy flow comes from.
As for evocation, I am not able to use it. However, I do know how it is done and what the results are. All in all, I just know more about than most.
Metaphysics is basically a science dealing with that which affects the universe but can only be speculated about. For instance, we may have the four dimensions of length, width, height, and time. Or we may have 18 dimensions, none of which I can name except for the above four. How does the soul affect our lives? What causes time lapses? Is time-control possible? Are there other planes of existance? Anything dealing with reality that cannot be proven or disproven.
Althanas Magic and abilities
Shenjara's magic relies mostly on evoking energy from the elemental and astral planes of existance. This goes into metaphysics because planar theory is considered to be a large area of study in that field. But in any case, her abilities were mosly drawn off from my desires. I have always wanted to hurl a fireball at something, create a shield of force(or air:)), and freeze the area around me.
I didn't want her to have to depend on material components because a)they can be expensive, b)you can lose material objects, and c) because I'm a prideful person.
Shenjara is what I call a Dormant Psychic, with only premonitions at her disposal...and those require help from her dream-buddy(read my threads). She cannot see energy flow unless she is in a dream or astral state, but she can feel it to a slight extent, and a large extent when in a dream or astral state.
Her Dreamweaving ability is off of the Astral Projection spell from DnD. The only difference is that her mind goes instead of her entire soul, and there isn't a silvery thread connecting the astral body to the real body. Also, if the astral-body is killed, Shenjara's real body dies with it, and vice-versa.
One quick thing before I leave this thread alone...
stand next to a staticy radio, it becomes clear
That has nothing to do with 'magic'. I know that for a fact. And basically, what I'm getting from this anyway, is that the "magic" you use is you thinking that you can talk to people's minds and move things with your mind, right?
Well, personally I've known a number of people that believed in Jedi'ism (or whatever) and they believed they could do the same thing with the... whatever runs in their blood... Most just laughed at them, like I did, and they could never really do anything.
I've grown up around random people, at least one believing in one or more of the area's of "magic" that you have pointed out so far. Each one's been a fraud for all I can tell, because none have been able to do what they said they were trying to do with their 'spells' or whatever they called their powers.
So, I'll have to be sticking with the science route once again and go with the "I don't believe in magic" thing. I would only reverse that if someone *coughHamnatcough* could throw a fireball, video tape it, and then send it to me.
My final thought as I leave though is this: What makes "magic" different than "miracles"? Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in God or gods just as much as I don't believe in magic... But how is a prayer different than a spell? And what separate's a supposedly almighty/allseeing/allknowing entity from wherever you get your "magic powers" from?
Magic is the intentional or unintentional manipulation of things unknown and unscientific by an otherwise normal human being.
Rookies might have hamnat's inabilities to control their magic. But with practice comes intent, and from intent, spells are formed.
Whether magic is given by a divine influence or not is irrelevant, it is the person's choice as to whether or not they use the gift, as well as how.
Miracles are direct intervention by divine intent which goes above and beyond things human and scientific, for the good of mankind, in a big or a small way, depending upon if the diety involved is a more "ALL OF YOU, PRAISE ME" egotist, or if the diety cares about each and every one of his/her followers.
A prayer has no intent of accomplishing anything, it is a petition to said diety for guidance, protection, or help.
And again, Dirge, you might not believe in magic, but I've seen too much to not.
And you might not believe in the divine, but again, you cannot shake my faith...I have a little sister who wouldn't be alive right now if not for a miracle of healing when she was just a baby.
I've got mixed feelings as to whether or not I believe in magic.
Ghosts? Yes. There was one particular incident about 7 years ago - I'm not going into detail - that's left a lasting impression on me. There was no scientific explanation for it, so I do think that ghosts exist.
Auras? Not really. I believe that some people have a keen eye for detail. Whether you're angry, frightened, happy, sad, surprised, or whatever, the human body makes hundreds of little tiny motions and gestures. This is what I think 'seeing auras' is: some people can understand these subliminal messages and are able to classify them with mood, emotion, and personality.
As for psychics and other magic, I don't think so. I've heard too much evidence to the contrary and seen too little supporting evidence to believe in this. I'm not saying it doesn't exist; it just hasn't proven itself to me yet.
As for Atzar, his energy is more internal than anything. Each element has its own type of energy. As of yet, he's not strong enough to create the fire/water/whatever with his energy alone. He has to use what already exists, in conjunction with the corresponding energy inside him, to take control of a flame or a snowball. As of now, Atzar has four elements; he'll have more later. I can think of twelve, but it may become a bit tedious to try to use them all, especially in the manner that I have planned out.
I've got another character that I'm working on that will have exclusive access to Earth magic. This will come from his belief in the Earth as "Mother Goddess." The way he sees it, a prayer to the Mother Goddess can make certain things happen at 'convenient' times.
But that's another story.
Anyway, this is my two cents on the issue.
Thou hast been ninja'd.
Well spoken, Karuka. I had posted something similar before, but I deleted it
On a different note, Jedi'ism is definently fallacy. I agree with you there, Dirge. There is no such thing as a "mitichlorian"(I think I spelled it right). Until such a time as there is, then I will agree with Jedi'ists. The reason I believe in magic is because I accept all possibilities. The reason that I won't agree with Jedi'ism is because it is in no way possible. It is based off of a movie in which the storyline was very well written.
Unfortunately, the Jedi'ists took the movie as based off of myth because it was so well described, and, as everybody knows, myths are based off of facts, so therefore, Jedi abilities must therefore be real. At least that's how I think they came to that conclusion.
EDIT:Argh! Demi-ninja'd by Atzar!
Zook Murnig
01-31-07, 12:44 PM
Hamnat, I tend to disagree with your assessment on the psionic potential of the average individual. While I did not continue my studies of those arts, I still encountered many individuals who started out as unskilled nobodies and are now notable telepaths, empaths, etc. One may come by psionic/psychic ability naturally, but this is rare and may become a crutch, as they may take their abilities for granted, while those who earned their skills by hard work will appreciate them more and work harder to improve them.
Thus, you are henceforth named resident "expert" on Psionic Theory. Enjoy the title.
Edit: I say expert with quotes because I can't think of a different word and you don't want to be called an expert.
Zook Murnig
01-31-07, 02:48 PM
I am going to have to decline on that position. I know little of that topic, as not much is truly known about it to begin with. There are so many different factions with contradicting views. The Psion Guild believes that psi is a separate energy that should not be worked in conjunction with other energies, such as magic, ki/qi/chi, and this thing they called Earth Energy. The folks on Veritas believe very differently, and see the energies as parallel with different applications, and that they work very well together.
The only real discrepancies I can see within magic is what's called Forcecraft, a form of magic which, in my opinion, is utterly false and fictional. Nothing is that easy.
Ashiakin
01-31-07, 10:36 PM
I think the supernatural is just science we don't understand yet. Also, I'd like to note that just because I think these things have a rational explanation doesn't mean I don't think they exist. It just means I think they have a more plausible explanation than, say, people's souls are touching the earth-realm with their spirit-energy fairy feelers. I've never had any firsthand experience with ghosts or magic, but I've met enough people who have and read enough credible material that I don't doubt them. They're just a little beyond our current scientific grasp. We'll get there someday, though. The truth is out there!
Not surprisingly, my personal views on magic are reflected in my writing. I like to present magic as just another aspect of humanity (or whatever race) and as a part of biology/geology that's exploited like anything else. It's studied like a science and regarded by governments as something they need to have a monopoly on in order to be able to maintain control over their realms. Not quite typical, I suppose. But I like my fantasy grounded with hefty doses of realism.
Zook Murnig
02-01-07, 04:59 AM
Allow me to make a note that the Qabbalah's explanations of energy, the Tree of Life, and other aspects of reality are in alignment with current quantum theory. It's just that the former has been around a lot longer than the latter.
Shall we reopen this topic? It's been seeming somewhat...dead since I last posted....
Topic of the week: Where does the energy for your character's spells come from?
Zook Murnig
02-01-07, 07:27 PM
His astral environment provides the energy. Only when he must go without his rituals does he need to expend any noticable amount of his own energy for the casting.
Karuka's energy...is a very interesting thing.
First off, there's the rune itself. Now, she engraved these tablets herself, but she still has to focus on giving them power frequently. Generally it's a meditation. I might RP that out sometime. Could be interesting.
Next is the method she uses to cast. She prays, invoking a divine influence for a specific intent. This focuses her mind on the TYPE of energy she wants and the effect she wants to use it for. It's way easy to cast Hagall in a snow storm, and impossible in a dry desert.
It's impossible to cast Ken in the water, but quite easy in a burning forest. Can't cast Thorn in a wasteland, and you MIGHT get a little static from Sigel in a clear sky. So it depends on the availability of what energy she's using.
For now, anyway.
Atzar uses energy within him to manipulate similar energy on the outside. For example, his fire energy can manipulate fire around him. Right now, he can't just create fire (or any element, for that matter)... he's not strong enough yet. As he gets stronger, he'll find that he can create flame, water, etc.
Elrundir
02-01-07, 09:38 PM
The power of song is superior. Tales of the Abyss clearly demonstrates this fact.
And goblins can't stand song, if a fairly obscure children's film from a long time back is right at all.
Ashiakin
02-01-07, 10:04 PM
I am not a huge fan of magic. Still, Ashiakin does have some. I've never devoted a lot of thought to where it comes from. I just have the vague idea of the Eternal Tap (which is the unofficial official source of magic on Althanas) in my mind.
Also, Sighter Tnailog is a convinced and enthusiastic otherkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin).
Shenjara's power comes from the Elemental Planes of Existance. She is able to pull energy from these Planes, making it purer and more concentrated than elemental energy from the surrounding environment. Thus, she could throw a thunderbolt(once she gets that ability) no matter what the conditions are. Of course, after the energy is gathered, the rest is the same as every one else who uses the same spell or enchantment. Fire will fizzle in water, and lightening will be conducted by water, metal, etc.
Sighter Tnailog
02-03-07, 10:07 PM
Ashiakin is a male prostitute.
Zook Murnig
02-03-07, 10:08 PM
I'm sorry, but I think you mistook this for the Althies Nominations for Most Slutty.
And the Althies are over, too.
Findelfin is just angry Ashiakin exposed the secret behind his magical powers and great writing ability. It comes from the stars, my friend. It comes from the stars.
Zook Murnig
02-03-07, 10:12 PM
Back on topic, there are a multitude of different types of Otherkin. What sort is Sighter, if Ash's claims have any merit?
This thread seems to have died without me here >_>....
Anyone need a topic? I got one...how do your characters channel their energy. As in, once they've drawn it from its source, what do they do to "process" it and make it usable for whatever spell or ritual they are performing. Does it involve picturing the result, channeling the energy through wards, certain parts of the body....what?
असतोमा सद्गमय। तमसोमा ज्योतिर् गमया।
मृत्योर्मामृतं गमय॥
Asato mā sad gamaya
Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya
Mṛtyormā amṛtam gamaya
Aum śānti śānti śāntiḥ
"lead me from non-truth to truth; lead me from darkness to light; lead me from mortality to immortality"
Karuka's magic is combination intent and prayer. She does her little prayer bit believing that what she wants to happen will happen, without any clue as to HOW it happens.
That might be a fun level 7 quest for her, but I intend to keep her as a faith mage for a good long time.
Zook Murnig
02-10-07, 09:15 PM
Caduceus, too, is a faith-based magician, but his faith is in the Divine Light that shines down from his god-form, Ain Soph (alt. spelling Ein Soph). His method of casting, however, is a combination of prayer, ritual, and energy manipulation.
First, he calls upon the elemental energy required. This may be Tejas for Fire, Apas for Water, Vayu for Air, or Prithivi for Earth. He then imagines himself surrounded by the element and that with each breath he inhales a portion of the element. Deep in the darkest oceans for Water, in the pits of Hellfire for Fire, buried alive for Earth, or flying high in the sky surrounded by pillowy white clouds for Air. As he is filled with the energy, he feels the primary attribute of the energy. Heat for Fire, cold for Water, lightness for Air, and heaviness for Earth. Then, when he is completely filled with the energy, he may perform a short ritual movement of the hands into a pentagram or other symbol as a focus, and speaks the divine name given to that spell. Divine names are of the seventy-two names given of Ain Soph (Ain Soph excluded). Often, these names are, translated, a reverance, such as Lord (Adonai). However, there are names that describe Ain Soph, such as Ehieh (Eh-hee-yeh), which means "I am." Hence the I AM principle.
With the intonation of the divine name, Caduceus actually feels the energy vibrate within him, and sends it forth to act on the physical. As above, so below.
Just channeling the energy in general for Atzar. He doesn't need words, or a wave of the hand, or anything like that. He just builds the energy up, and what he wants to happen happens. I guess his specialty could be considered elemental telekinesis.
Shenjara (as said before) evokes the energy from the Elemental Planes. She then focuses on a picture in her mind of the element, for basic spells, or the desired result, for more complex spells. Fire energy she channels through her heart, water/frost energy she channels through her head, air energy(when she gets to use it) she channels through her hands and feet, and earth energy(when she gets to use it) she channels through her entire body.
This "processes" the energy for use, and then she moves the processed energy to where ever the spell will take effect. Her hand for Torch, the surrounding area for Chill, through her fingers to any nearby point for Blast(see the battle Children of Nin), etc.
The incantation is not necessarily required, nor is the somatic component(as with Torch). They do, however, make the energy easier to evoke and channel(even I have not figured out why, yet). Spells that she has had practice with become familiar to her eventually, and this is easier because of it. This is why she doesn't need to make any "wierd movements" when she casts Torch, but does when she casts Chill.
Godhand
03-11-08, 01:41 PM
Oh God, bumped because everyone in this thread is fucking delusional. Read the first page for the choicest stuff.
Rayse Valentino
03-11-08, 05:52 PM
How dare you, Godhand? Did you not know that this is a serious discussion about magic? Magic is serious business, buddy, and if you don't stop I'll put a curse on you for I am a disciple in the school of mayaztecmanismic shamanation and am also a ~vampyre~ (half).
See, I just think Godhand decided to resurrect this thread before he moves on to real necromancy, since it is a discussion about magic, and all.
Either that, or he's a necrophiliac without the guts to go to the cemetery and do it right.
Zook Murnig
03-11-08, 05:55 PM
Ha ha. Very funny, both of you. If this is going to be brought back up, then let's be mature about it, lest the thread fall into the flamewar that nearly consumed it the first time.
Godhand
03-11-08, 06:00 PM
Hahahaha. God, I didn't even bother to read through nine pages of what I assume are you people's assorted neuroses before ressurecting this, but the fact that someone other than me called you out on it means there's still some good in the world.
Well, not "good", I guess. But not "batshit delusional" either.
Rayse Valentino
03-11-08, 06:02 PM
See, I just think Godhand decided to resurrect this thread before he moves on to real necromancy, since it is a discussion about magic, and all.
Either that, or he's a necrophiliac without the guts to go to the cemetery and do it right.
Um, what? I will not take that kind of abuse, please remove that comment. Necromancy is serious and I will not tolerate flame wars in this thread.
Slayer of the Rot
03-11-08, 06:04 PM
This one time I smoked some weed and summoned a snake with a spell and fought with it. Later I found out I was just jacking off.
Godhand
03-11-08, 06:05 PM
Heyo! Slayer's here! Now it's a party.
Alright boys, let's go down to the graveyard and do some hella blood magick. That's magic with a k. Because I am totally serious about it.
Rayse Valentino
03-11-08, 06:29 PM
http://www.althanas.com/world/showpost.php?p=53301&postcount=58
A passive psychic is a psychic who can't use their powers!
In other news, I'm a passive wolf. Truly, I am a wolf at heart, but I can not yet able to transform into one. Sometimes when I look up at the full moon, I wanna give it a big ole howl, but alas~
It is not easy being a passive wolf.
Godhand
03-11-08, 06:31 PM
I feel for you, my friend.
Would you like to join me in a brief howl?
Dissinger
03-11-08, 06:36 PM
Seriously guys, is this the best you could do? I've seen better out of you Godhand. Seriously 0/10.
Rayse however gets a solid 9 as he provides comedy relief to Godhands feeble attempt at humor.
Godhand
03-11-08, 06:46 PM
Dissinger, you are not worthy to sit where I piss. I will not take criticism of my brilliant commentary from you. Also, I always figured Karuka would be the type to read Dominic Deegan.
Ah, so you read it too, then. It's gone downhill since the War in Hell arc, don't you think?
Godhand
03-11-08, 06:54 PM
No, but I read John Solomon's review (http://badwebcomics.blogspot.com/2007/06/dominic-deegan.html) of it and the strips he used to support his claims.
Also, I think that it is hilarious that hamnat thinks magic is real but that jedi'ism or whatever is just silly.
Wow. I can't believe there are people dumb enough to spend their time reading a webcomic just to write scathing reviews of it. Even more incredible are the people willing to sit and read the reviews instead of seeing whether or not they like the comic. It's like eating the charred remains on the bottom of a cooking pan, and deciding from that whether the steak was overdone or if the char was a nice touch.
What an incredible waste of time. Way to go, Godhand.
And to be mildly on topic...no. Your jibes about blood "magick" threw it off. Don't forget the one-eyed black goat, and please remember to wear a hardhat at all times.
Godhand
03-11-08, 07:18 PM
I'm flattered you'd think I was that good a writer, but I'm not John Solomon.
Doesn't change the fact that Dominic Deegan is about as stupid as magic with a k, though.
I categorized you as the even more incredible waster of time that actually sat through and read it. No need to flatter yourself, gramps.
Godhand
03-11-08, 07:22 PM
I could easily counter your argument by imitating what I imagine the sound of you blubbering is, but that'd be tacky of me and would distract people that Dominic Deegan, and by extension your very taste, is an abomination so profound that I want to pinch the bridge of my nose and sigh with exasperation.
You know what? That actually sounds pretty good. I think I'll do that.
Serilliant
03-11-08, 07:23 PM
incredible waster of time
Speaking of which
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