View Full Version : Asking for Salvar Input
Ashiakin
02-24-07, 06:29 PM
As some of you may have noticed, I have backed off of some of the systems I introduced to Salvar several months ago. I wasn't sure that they were working and I decided to take them down until I could tweak them. I've been busy and the work has gone slowly, but I'm also stumped about what to do. So I'm asking for input. I'm not so much asking for input on story ideas--I have that under control, I think. Over the weekends I've been working on a comprehensive guide to Salvar that will eventually detail everything from a history of the region to the various forms of transportation available. What I need help with is figuring out how the players want some of the systems I've set up to work.
Fiefdoms -- Anyone is allowed to have their own fiefdom in Salvar. It can be run by the player or simply owned OOCly by the player with their character only working or serving there. The thing is, I don't know how to make them work. I don't know if there should be a lot of structure/restrictions or very little. Should there be different quality levels of fiefdoms you have to advance through like our EXP system? Should there be rules regulating warfare or not? Should land size, army size, building types, peasant population, and such be regulated? Should people get money for maintaining their fiefdoms well? Or should people just be able to have fiefdoms without a system of rules to govern them? If you want rules and systems, how would you like to see them set up and run?
Factions -- Aside from the League of Salvic States, which was covered in the previous paragraph, there are two other major factions in Salvar that I would like to see players/characters interacting in and with. The first is the Church of the Ethereal Sway, which is Salvar's state church. Its priests act as judges, spies, and assassins for the monarchy. Its very old an conservative, so it is interested in keeping Salvar to its traditional practices in the face of a changing world. The other is the Vogruk-Stokes Company, a large business enterprise that is involved in all sorts of things, from mining to trading to slave trafficking. It also runs a large colonial project and defends itself with well-trained mercenary armies and privateer fleets. It is often at odds with the monarchy. Would people rather just be able to be members of these organizations without a lot of rules, or would you rather there be rules about advancing and salaries and missions laid out for you? If you want rules and systems, how would you like for them to work?
Other -- If there's anything else you'd like to see, please let me know.
For the factions, I believe a simple point system would work best.
In more detail, threads in Salvar that advance the Church or Vogruk-Stokes should be judged and simultaneously awarded points for either faction (i.e. +1 for assassinating a rival religious figure or +2 for recovering a stolen Vogruk company plan). You could set up gifts/rights that either faction might bestow upon PCs who reach certain point levels, like a minor magic amulet at +10 Church points or free use of a company bodyguard at +5 Company points. Hell, the points could even serve to decide elligability to listed missions posted by either faction.
Well, I'm two cents lighter...
I wholeheartedly support a point-based system for commissioned quests, as that adds whole new dimensions to the dynamic of roleplaying in Salvar. It also gives many opportunities for new threads, based on inter-faction relations and such.
I have a question about one thing. I am planning very soon to start a quest in which Iain will compete in a sort of Colosseum/pit fighting thingamawhoozit. I was wondering if it would be alright for me to write this Colosseum as a location known all over Salvar, and that victories in it would somehow gain the victor status in Salvar, or at least the respect of people. (Not a colosseum like the Romans had, all pit fighting all the time. Think more along the lines of medival tournament events in an amphitheater-like setting) The concept is still developing but permission would be nice before I waste too much time.
Zook Murnig
02-24-07, 11:58 PM
I would actually like to see some sort of Citadel look-alike in Salvar. It would likely boost activity, not only in that subforum, but within the region as well. Iain's idea for a Coliseum is a good one, and one I'd really like to see implemented.
Lets not exclude some more roman style stuff either. Pit gladiators against all sorts of captured wild beasts, or especially bred fighting beasts, and the like. Maybe teams of gladiators, and have a kiosk where you had certain beasts currently available, and then people would register to fight one thing or another, perhaps in teams for larger things.
Lions, cockatrice... (dragons...) etc...
Bernard
02-25-07, 01:00 AM
Koran on yet another account.
Umm, what if I were to put down a church uprising in the far north? Would I get any points for that? O.o
Mine mine mine!
Well I added to yours, so there. :P Part of mine is mine.
Rajani Aishwara
02-25-07, 02:52 AM
I don't know about all the Citadel stuff, but one thing that may assist in gaining and keeping activity would be salary positions in the factions. After members complete a given number of quests or earn a certain number of reputation points with a faction, they'll be promoted to a point that they'll automatically earn a certain amount of GP, EXP, or both each month. Members that show inactivity for a month will get demoted from that position so you won't have a bunch of free riders.
It would be extra attractive if you literally pit players of different factions against each other. This would require a minimum number of active players, but if you publicize it well enough you'll get them. Having players fight and negotiate with each other over land and laws is much more attractive than players fighting and negotiating with NPC's.
The Colliseum thing sounds exciting and all, but when I wrote with Unseen for the Alerar region and we had something similar for all of a week, it got dull really fast. It sounds good, but think about how dull it would become to just write about facing obstacles without storyline reasoning for them beyond "I want to prove myself" or "To become stronger" all the time.
If anything, I'd concede the point that a gladiator deathmatch arena would be cool. In essence, a Cell-like Citadel where PCs fight en masse and you simply title your battle thread with how many people you wish to join. However, fighting beasts would be a mundane chore to both write and read.
If done well fighting beasts would not be a chore, but I guess the key word is "done well". A good writer can pull it off though, otherwise a lot of fantasy novels would be a lot more dull.
In a situation where there are two fighters, but there's also a random beast released somewhere done there in a catacomb like environment, points would not only be awarded due to the interaction with the other player, but interaction with the environment becomes a lot more important.
Ashiakin
02-25-07, 02:14 PM
For the factions, I believe a simple point system would work best. In more detail, threads in Salvar that advance the Church or Vogruk-Stokes should be judged and simultaneously awarded points for either faction (i.e. +1 for assassinating a rival religious figure or +2 for recovering a stolen Vogruk company plan). You could set up gifts/rights that either faction might bestow upon PCs who reach certain point levels, like a minor magic amulet at +10 Church points or free use of a company bodyguard at +5 Company points. Hell, the points could even serve to decide elligability to listed missions posted by either faction.
I wholeheartedly support a point-based system for commissioned quests, as that adds whole new dimensions to the dynamic of roleplaying in Salvar. It also gives many opportunities for new threads, based on inter-faction relations and such.
Although this sounds a little like the reputation system we got rid of, this is something I'm going to consider. I'd just have to make sure that I keep it simple enough that people don't have to go through a lengthy learning process. It's like what I had originally, although that was more based on thread score.
I have a question about one thing. I am planning very soon to start a quest in which Iain will compete in a sort of Colosseum/pit fighting thingamawhoozit. I was wondering if it would be alright for me to write this Colosseum as a location known all over Salvar, and that victories in it would somehow gain the victor status in Salvar, or at least the respect of people. (Not a colosseum like the Romans had, all pit fighting all the time. Think more along the lines of medival tournament events in an amphitheater-like setting) The concept is still developing but permission would be nice before I waste too much time.
Lets not exclude some more roman style stuff either. Pit gladiators against all sorts of captured wild beasts, or especially bred fighting beasts, and the like. Maybe teams of gladiators, and have a kiosk where you had certain beasts currently available, and then people would register to fight one thing or another, perhaps in teams for larger things.
Story-wise, that sounds find, Iain. It's funny that this was brought up because when I originally wrote Salvar out, it had something almost exactly like that in it. It was a fighting arena/coliseum where people could fight each other, slaves, animals, etc. in front of an audience. The only reason I got rid of it was because I didn't want to take activity away from the Citadel and the ToW, since it seemed like people could just make their own arenas like that there. But if it's something people are interested in, I may do it. The only thing is, would people rather it have some sort of ranking system or not? It wouldn't be like the ToW, I think. More like who could survive/win OOCly the most consecutive fights.
Edit: I like the idea of mass battles in the coliseum, too.
I don't know about all the Citadel stuff, but one thing that may assist in gaining and keeping activity would be salary positions in the factions. After members complete a given number of quests or earn a certain number of reputation points with a faction, they'll be promoted to a point that they'll automatically earn a certain amount of GP, EXP, or both each month. Members that show inactivity for a month will get demoted from that position so you won't have a bunch of free riders. It would be extra attractive if you literally pit players of different factions against each other. This would require a minimum number of active players, but if you publicize it well enough you'll get them. Having players fight and negotiate with each other over land and laws is much more attractive than players fighting and negotiating with NPC's.
Yeah, I had a system like this up fairly recently. I just took it down because it seemed like it was going to be too much work for me to keep up on my own. What I'm thinking about doing now is just hiring a couple of new mods to Salvar to work under me and just keep systems like that running. So I think that something like this will definitely be happening in the near future.
And this last bit is just to everyone again: I haven't seen a lot of mention of the fiefdoms. Are people not interested in having them at all? Should I just get rid of the system entirely? If you want me to keep them, how should they work?
Addressing the fiefdoms, I am very interested, due to the nature of my character. I eventually plan for him to retake his family's land and gain land across the border in Alerar, a plan approved by Lucien, but that is far off. The only thing I would like to see beyond what there is now would be some sort of format for submitting a fiefdom for approval, or for posting information about the fiefdom and its government, inhabitants, etc.
I'd like to volunteer my services as a Salvar mod. I have loads of ideas around this Coliseum concept, but they all require activity from at least one mod and all players included in it (Featured Coliseum events with rewards and such). Also, I think that the point system definitely has potential. Perhaps you want a mod for each faction, to write commissioned quests and such, then to be in charge of everything related to their particular faction.
Or not. Just an idea.
I think the fiefdom system should be highly regulated.
It could work very well on a basis by which good maintenance of your fiefdom entails growth in size/power/quality. Off the top of my head (in other words don't bite it off if this sounds flimsy), I can see there being a base low quality fiefdom for players of given level or standing. To improve upon it, they must quest on behalf of the fiefdom in some way. Now, when the quest is complete, you could get fief credits or some other equivalent that can be tracked ICly somehow, which would in turn be traded in for expanded land, greater population, a better-armed military, etc.
Practical Application
Fief Model:
Land ~ 200 acres (20% tundra/30% forest/50% fertile grassland)
Military ~ 100 men w/ steel armaments (60 foot soldiers/30 bowmen/10 cavalry)
Population ~ 1000 non-military civilians (.01 GP/month each to user)
50 FCs buys you ten acres of tundra, 200 FCs gets you a population improvement to .02 GP/month per civilian, 750 FCs buys you a hundred civilians, 1000 FCs gets you delyn armament, and so on. Unlike reputation points, users keep track of FCs and spend as they choose. There would then have to be a directory of fiefdoms that the person running this continuously updates along with managing sales.
The only problem with this idea, which is one I biasly think could become great for Salvic interest, is finding someone to put the effort into creating the system (balancing FC prices as well as land:military:civilian ratio restrictions). I volunteer if the idea is well received, but I don't presume to tell you how to do your job, Ash.
Cheers.
EDIT: I've never agreed with ICly unjustified EXP bonuses, which is why I proposed the receipt of GP based on civilians. You can do what you want, of course.
EDIT': As for fiefdom warfare, I believe that should be handled ICly between fiefdom owners, but there also needs to be something to keep people building up military even if they don't war with others. Perhaps every once in a while there could be a mod-inspired rampaging horde of orcs or something that passes through the fiefdom and kills X% of civilians.
X = (civ to military ratio) * .5
In the example, it'd be X = (10) * .5 = 5, so that person loses 5% of their civilians.
EDIT'': I know, I'm ridiculously scatter-brained, but I have one last edition. FCs in quests relating to one's fiefdom could very easily replace GP when being calculated for the user, since their fiefdom gets them GP anyway.
How would we base our populations for our fiefdoms?
I ask because I'm currently questing for a fiefdom that consists largely of a medium sized port city (I'm thinking of approx 250,000 ppl all told, with about 175,000 perm residents) and some surrounding country-side which largly consists of farm land and a few mines.
Would this be considered unacceptable because of the large base population or might I squeak by...seeing as I'm questing for it instead of just 'inheriting' it like most people would? Unless, others are going to quest for theirs...O.o
Am I making an sense and is this even the right thread? :p
Um, I was proposing the basic concept of an as-yet undeveloped idea for a fiefdom system. We can't go questioning it and poking holes in the finer details before its implemented, mate.
Ashiakin
02-25-07, 03:34 PM
Umm, what if I were to put down a church uprising in the far north? Would I get any points for that? O.o
How would we base our populations for our fiefdoms?
I ask because I'm currently questing for a fiefdom that consists largely of a medium sized port city (I'm thinking of approx 250,000 ppl all told, with about 175,000 perm residents) and some surrounding country-side which largly consists of farm land and a few mines.
Would this be considered unacceptable because of the large base population or might I squeak by...seeing as I'm questing for it instead of just 'inheriting' it like most people would? Unless, others are going to quest for theirs...O.o
Am I making an sense and is this even the right thread?
Sorry I missed you the first time around. As to the question, I'm not sure what you mean. The church act as the government's representatives and the monarchy requires that all fiefdoms have them. So if you were to try to do that, the military would be sent in to crush your fief. This early, no one is going to be allowed to have a fief powerful enough to challenge the government.
I have not come up with a system for population yet, so I can't really answer that question aside from saying that 250,000 is going to be considered far too high. So if you are writing a story, I would not have your fief containing anywhere near that many people, because you'll likely have to tone it down soon. These fiefs are not intended for people to have huge cities that can challenge the legitimate government of Salvar right off the bat. Sorry for any confusion over that point.
Arawn: The system you presented is somewhat like what I came up with originally, before I decided to free it up (and subsequently became leery of doing so.) So something like that may happen again the future. It's definitely going to be more regulated in the future than it is now. Thanks for the ideas.
Iain: Yeah, there is definitely going to be an approvals process and a list of all the fiefs with descriptions of them and their strengths. That is coming.
Arawn and Iain: I will keep the both of you in mind when I start looking for people to help me out, although keep in mind that I am looking for people to do technical work and maintenance of systems, not writing.
Perhaps then, to save myself confusion...it would be best to scrap my idea and resubmit my application for a fief.
*brainstorms*
Lady Anais
02-25-07, 03:56 PM
I think the fiefdom system should be highly regulated.
It could work very well on a basis by which good maintenance of your fiefdom entails growth in size/power/quality. Off the top of my head (in other words don't bite it off if this sounds flimsy), I can see there being a base low quality fiefdom for players of given level or standing. To improve upon it, they must quest on behalf of the fiefdom in some way. Now, when the quest is complete, you could get fief credits or some other equivalent that can be tracked ICly somehow, which would in turn be traded in for expanded land, greater population, a better-armed military, etc.
Practical Application
Fief Model:
Land ~ 200 acres (20% tundra/30% forest/50% fertile grassland)
Military ~ 100 men w/ steel armaments (60 foot soldiers/30 bowmen/10 cavalry)
Population ~ 1000 non-military civilians (.01 GP/month each to user)
50 FCs buys you ten acres of tundra, 200 FCs gets you a population improvement to .02 GP/month per civilian, 750 FCs buys you a hundred civilians, 1000 FCs gets you delyn armament, and so on. Unlike reputation points, users keep track of FCs and spend as they choose. There would then have to be a directory of fiefdoms that the person running this continuously updates along with managing sales.
The only problem with this idea, which is one I biasly think could become great for Salvic interest, is finding someone to put the effort into creating the system (balancing FC prices as well as land:military:civilian ratio restrictions). I volunteer if the idea is well received, but I don't presume to tell you how to do your job, Ash.
Cheers.
EDIT: I've never agreed with ICly unjustified EXP bonuses, which is why I proposed the receipt of GP based on civilians. You can do what you want, of course.
EDIT': As for fiefdom warfare, I believe that should be handled ICly between fiefdom owners, but there also needs to be something to keep people building up military even if they don't war with others. Perhaps every once in a while there could be a mod-inspired rampaging horde of orcs or something that passes through the fiefdom and kills X% of civilians.
X = (civ to military ratio) * .5
In the example, it'd be X = (10) * .5 = 5, so that person loses 5% of their civilians.
EDIT'': I know, I'm ridiculously scatter-brained, but I have one last edition. FCs in quests relating to one's fiefdom could very easily replace GP when being calculated for the user, since their fiefdom gets them GP anyway.
One thing to look at would also be managing the fief and alternatives to how it's run. For example, if someone just quests for land, saying they automatically get the land, military, civilians is one way but that also makes fiefs very very valuable. (The idea of questing for basically a small army? That concerns me a bit.)
I also agree with fiefs being able to generate GP but not XP (afterall, once you set up business there, why would you get XP?) But one thing to consider would be alternative means of determining fief power/income. Sure, civilian population is one way to do it (as you could say you levee taxes from the population) but what about resources? Say you don't have an actual civilian population: what if your fief runs a logging industry- you'd be able to generate money from the logging business? The resource would provide your income (and could be regulated OOCly how much by factoring in how much you have to pay to maintain your business, worker wages, etc. before you end up with your final profit number)
Actually, I'll give the example for my own plans in each to clarify my point:
I'm planning on dong a series of quests for my fief (IC, taking back portions of it at a time from a hostile force, which is kind of a counterbalance way to simply getting land and explanding it). Now, once I have the fief, I'd have a certain population and possible resources. At that point, it'd become land management. I'd need to hire a certain amount of workers to harvest my resources (there are guidelines on costs of slave labor in the bazaar area if I remember). I'd need to hire personel to manage the fief/defend it (again, there are guidelines for 0 Level NPCS costs on the site). I figure further quests would be used any time I want to "improve" my fief (level the NPC staff along with me, improve my "business" as far as income creation, fortifying it against outsiders).
This provides a level of balance where you are intimately responsible for your land- in fact it becomes a story arc on how you get/keep/improve and expand your land. How much you put in in turn makes you get more out of it. But it also means fiefs would be run more to the individual style: if you want a militaristic fief, you'd get less profit- from however you get the income- because you have to pay to maintain your military. If you want one with political influence, you might have to lower your military presence and invest more in supporting the Church. If you want an "industrial" one, you'd tailor to a business- giving you less "influence" and less defense but more income generated.
Would this be considered unacceptable because of the large base population or might I squeak by...seeing as I'm questing for it instead of just 'inheriting' it like most people would? Unless, others are going to quest for theirs...O.o
I know I plan on questing for mine, even though the backstory is that I already "own" it. I'm looking to say "Okay, this first quest, I took back like, 20-25% of my fief. Okay, second quest, I'm going to take another 15-20%. Third I'll get another 20-25%. Fourth or Fifth, I'll finally take the whole thing." So no, you're not the only one questing for a fief. (In fact, at least one of us is planning on series questing for it :p )
Arawn: The system you presented is somewhat like what I came up with originally, before I decided to free it up (and subsequently became leery of doing so.) So something like that may happen again the future. It's definitely going to be more regulated in the future than it is now. Thanks for the ideas.
Arawn and Iain: I will keep the both of you in mind when I start looking for people to help me out, although keep in mind that I am looking for people to do technical work and maintenance of systems, not writing.
I was only offering my services for the fleshing out of the fiefdom idea and, at most, OOC management. IC mod responsibilities hold no interest for me. I’m a numbers guy.
I’m going to go ahead and construct a basic blueprint for you, but you shouldn’t feel any pressure to use it. You can modify it at your will. The ideas are flying around in my head now, so I may as well write them down.
I also agree with fiefs being able to generate GP but not XP (afterall, once you set up business there, why would you get XP?) But one thing to consider would be alternative means of determining fief power/income. Sure, civilian population is one way to do it (as you could say you levee taxes from the population) but what about resources? Say you don't have an actual civilian population: what if your fief runs a logging industry- you'd be able to generate money from the logging business? The resource would provide your income (and could be regulated OOCly how much by factoring in how much you have to pay to maintain your business, worker wages, etc. before you end up with your final profit number)
You know, I was already considering a breakdown of working civilians in the same way as the military; for instance, 50% farmers/30% loggers/20% builders. By this, GP accumulation could be based on worker-land calculations (i.e. farmers per acre of fertile land and loggers per acre of wood). Once again, it just requires a whole lot of thought.
Oh, and straight-up quest spoils of fiefdom upgrades could easily be equated to their GP value and be subject to mod approval/modification like any other spoils. At least, I don't see why this wouldn't be the case...
grim137
02-25-07, 07:09 PM
Forgive me if this has already been asked (I don't feel like reading every post in this thread) but under the fief point (as proposed by Arawn) system would it be possible for different people (such as say a powergroup) to combine their FC's to purchase better stuff for fief?
Here's my thought--I'm really interested in the fiefdoms, and I think it could be cool to have an economic system to play with.
I suppose the system's end result would be to generate GP, as Lady Anais said. Initially, perhaps the fiefdom would begin with some land, some sources of raw materials, some peasants. Maybe a military. The player then writes threads (solo or otherwise) in which s/he builds up economy of the land, industry, production, trade relations (trade between fiefdoms could get really cool). Perhaps the fiefdom would specialize in a certain kind of product...but that's besides the point.
You might create a stat-thread, somewhat like the one for Powergroup Treasuries. In that post you could keep a record of the status of each fiefdom--population, land area, geography, military, treasury, market. The market is what I'm most interested in--I'm fascinated by economics, you see. The market score would be based on trade relations (which could also be documented in the stat thread), imports, exports, production, and whatnot, and could dictate the amount of GP the estate generated periodically. The player might even have a way of diverting capital from their market sector to say, the military sector.
At the end of a fiefdom thread, in addition to the standard EXP granted for completion, a mod could go through and document fiefdom bonuses. For instance, say in a certain thread the ruler of a fiefdom negotiates with a representative of a band of powerful Fallien merchants and establishes some kind of trade agreement. The mod could approve the trade relation, add it to the fiefdom's stat report, and accordingly modify the market score.
Economic relations would therefore be a must to sustain, say, military force. A forest-locale fiefdom might develop a lucrative fur trade while having to trade with a neighboring grass-land fiefdom for foodstuffs. The inter-region interactions would present all kinds of fun, and provide fodder for interaction with the Vogruk-Stokes Company. It might also generate a lot of interest since, if done well, it could prove enormously profitable.
So...I guess my main suggestions are 1) a stat thread to monitor the aspects of each fiefdom and 2) a score for the fiefdom's economy to encourage production and inter-fiefdom relations.
grim137
02-25-07, 07:43 PM
Fenris your idea is cool and I like the whole economic relationship between fiefdoms. In fact I think it could be taken one step further.
For instance fief owner A pisses off fief owner B. Since much of A's income comes from various trades with outside merchants then B could try and cripple A by placing forces on trade routes outside of the fiefs that would prevent merchants from getting to fief B, at least through the easy routes. Of course fief A might try and get back those routes, establish new ones, or because A' fief is now less guarded simply attack fief A while the blunt of A's forces are spread out and focused on the trade routes.
On the other hand fief A specializes in slave trade, fief B specializes in mining. Since fief B would need miners, Fief A could provide slaves at a discount price (or even free) in exchange for some of the metal fief B mines or some of the goods fief B makes from those metals.
These are just two examples of ways fiefs could interact, and of course details on how to go about such actions and who needs to approve what would have to be sorted out but that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Edit: Just thought of something else, there could be ways in which the economic decisions could effect a fief's military and what not in war in well. Using my example above, if Fief A continues to focus on mining and smithing then when it comes time for war they will be able to turn their resources inward and supply their troops with better equipment. On the other hand fief B which would have a lot of slaves (being a slave trading fief and all) while maybe not as well equiped would be able to turn convert slaves in to soldiers by sending them on the battle field. These slave soldiers would of course be under, equiped and under trained but they would be additional men (and women and children) none the less.
Or perhaps, in spirit of ultimate realism and fairness, our fiefdoms begin blank.
This is all preliminary, and quite basic. I'm approaching fiefdoms with a more numerical strategy, hoping that it becomes quite possible to gain both EXP and GP depending on how you handle your fiefdom. Quests will be used to ICly manage how you control your fiefdom, as your character consults town leaders or even advisors and representatives (depending on how large your fiefdom is). Eventually, with enough advisors, it may be large enough to sustain itself without your guidance - though it's growth factors will be limited.
If anyone is interested in more, I can post more. Just ideas though.
Land
There will be a great but limited amount of land, that will be distributed to those who apply to build their fiefdom. An initial quest will determine what percentage of this total land you receive, depending on your score.
It will also determine what type of land you receive, the natural resources within it and any animal populations or existing territories. This may also include small settlements of farmers, however extremly limited they are.
Population
There will also be a limited amount of settlers, and how you attract them depends upon several factors. If you have large amounts of unsettled land, fertile land, a large river (including other abundant natural resources) or an already existing population (however small) then it is likely settlers will prefer your land over others. If you have poor terrain, no natural resources or an extremely harsh environment then less settlers will come to your land.
Your starting population will depend upon your initial quest, and your concentration of sexes. If you've more females, you'll produce less work but a greater population. If you've more males, you'll produce more work but a lesser population.
How your population grows depends upon your food sources, supplies, sex concentration and time.
Population Size = Initial Amount (1.80)^Semi-Annual Period
Death Rate = Population Size (.80)
Factors influence both numbers positively or negatively with a value of .05, with a maximum of two influencing factors.
Normal Life [P=100(1.8)^2] - 324
Normal Death [324 - (324 x .8)] - 65
End Result (1yr) is +259
Good Crops, Life [P=100(1.85)^2] - 342
Good Crops, Death [342 - (342 x .85)] - 51
End Result (1yr) is +291
I've tested the equation with several different initial populations, and it seems to work out fine with the corresponding death rate. This should make for a realistic growth of any individual fiefdom, even if they vary in population.
Materials
Materials will be influenced by your population, your natural resources, your amount of workers and your trade (if applicable). Those low in food but high in wood may trade another fiefdom for food, especially those low with wood.
I can throw around some ideas of how to regulate.
Military
Train militia, or a full-time army, or hire mercanaries.
Just a Note
This proposition can work with other ideas (such as the trade influenced posts before this).
Rajani Aishwara
02-25-07, 08:49 PM
I really hate to say this because it would be somewhat backwards, but I mostly like the way you had the feifdoms set up before where we'd submit our feifdom within the designated requirements.
I'd only suggest a few changes. If I were you I'd only change the things that require your constant involvement and attention as the region's moderator. One of which being the initial purchase of the feifdoms. The players should either have the money or not buy one at all. Don't loan the feifdom out to them like you did before. That way you won't have to check back constantly to see if you got payed.
Once you've gotten the feifdom details and perameters established the best thing you can do is to teach every registration mod their rules. Allow the players to register and upgrade the feifdoms in the Character/PG Registration forum, where the mods can oversee and approve them just like characters and pgs. That way your work is minimized, things don't come to a screetching halt when you're not around, and AWSOME PUBLICITY. Every new player goes through that forum, to have them registered there would alert everyone to Salvar's perks.
In addition to that I only have one more thing to say, and I apologize to everyone with elaborate ideas for the feifdoms. The simpler the concept, the more player's you'll get.
Just an observation on Nein's prposed system - anything similar to the formulas you present require a whole lot of people to "quest for a fiefdom". Trading for materials will only be possible if there is a large selection of feifdoms to trade with.
Not just at Nein, but all yous guys with grand economic interactions planned: I can see it working, but definitely not in the fetal stages of the feif system. Maybe after it has gained momentum and participants and proves that more than three people are interested in it, this system would be more practical.
Then again, maybe not.
OMGEDITROFFLOLZORZ!!!!!: I totally agree with that guy ^^^^^^^^^^
Simpler the concept, greater chance of something going wrong.
Your basic fiefdom should require constant attention, as it is a very unstable system of population, wealth and resources. If you limit the availability of fiefdoms to those who have the funds, you limit the amount of potential players.
Any fool can buy a self sustaining city, but it takes a great thinker to build a self sustaining city from the ground up. Equal opportunity is what I'm after.
EDIT: Economics come into play depending upon the size and stability of your fiefdom. If you're limited in ability to trade and are concerned with surviving, it's likely you won't be in the market.
Equal opportunity is what I'm after. And isn't that what the feudal system was all about?
I have to totally agree with Rajani. I've seen complicated systems rise and fall on Althanas. I can barely get through the judging system for awarding EXP without trying to blow my head off. We need a simple system, that's a given. Althanas isn't about complicated math and formulas. It's about writing, it's about creativity, it's about roleplaying. So far, I'd go with Rajani's suggestions.
And now I'm a full nickel lighter.
grim137
02-25-07, 09:03 PM
None of these formulas are overly complicated, you simply plug in the appropriate numbers for the appropriate variables and then solve. It's basic pre-algebra, the only problem I have is with some of Nein's formulas I'm not 100% sure what some of those variables are supposed to represent.
Rajani Aishwara
02-25-07, 09:05 PM
Your basic fiefdom should require constant attention, as it is a very unstable system of population, wealth and resources.You misinterpreted what I said. When I spoke of minimizing constant attention, I meant minimizing Ashiakin's constant attention. He shouldn't have to be looking over our shoulders every five minutes trying to see if we're not breaking any years.
As for the player I do agree with you that a feifdom does require constant attention. Unfortunately it can't require as much attention as a player's character, and that's what all these elaborate setups may force. That is why I say the simpler the better. In my opinion Ashiakin had it mostly right to begin with.
Its not that we're incapable of doing the math, grim, we're trying to say that you are missing the point.
Or at least I am.
Exponential function is hardly complicated.
Those forumla's represent your population, influenced by positive or negative factors and time. It's fairly simple if you take a few seconds to look over the math. However, with the 'simple system' proposed, anyone with money can walk around and buy a fiefdom with little afterthought.
Then what are those like I supposed to do?
So much for "writing, creativity, and roleplaying".
EDIT: I'm not aware of previous attempts at fiefdom. Enlighten me?
Rajani Aishwara
02-25-07, 09:10 PM
Exponential function is hardly complicated.
Those forumla's represent your population, influenced by positive or negative factors and time. It's fairly simple if you take a few seconds to look over the math. However, with the 'simple system' proposed, anyone with money can walk around and buy a fiefdom with little afterthought.
Then what are those like I supposed to do?
So much for "writing, creativity, and roleplaying".
EDIT: I'm not aware of previous attempts at fiefdom. Enlighten me?The system Ashiakin had up required feifdom owners to roleplay in order to get any kind of earnings from it. It wasn't just purchasing land just to say you have it.
IN ADDITION: You have to put human perception into consideration. It doesn't necessarily matter if these equations are complicated. A player sees this in addition to the levels, the exp, the gp, and the secretive judgement formulas, and gets discouraged.
EDIT: I feel like I need to say this as I have been prone to several disputes lately. I really hope you aren't taking offense to anything I'm saying. This is healthy debate.
Still doesn't sound right.
Your land should be able to generate it's own funds, without constant supervision no matter what state it remains in. However, with constant supervision it might be able to generate funds at a much greater rate.
It's a bit of both ideas.
Agreed on the SIMPLE IS BETTER! thought. Also agreed that grand economic machinations may be a long time in coming. ALSO agreed that the Realm of Greeting is a great place for fiefdoms.
Registering a fiefdom could be a lot like registering a character (except it wouldn't be with a new profile, and you might have to pay a fee). In the initial bio you'd include things like geography, resources (these two would go hand in hand), maybe a capital, important ports/trade outlets, military (if any), population (if any). Gives you a starting place. The mods could then make sure you weren't giving yourself an all-powerful city state, one with all the raw materials, all the industry, everything it needed to dominate everything else. Pretty much like fiefdoms were before--except perhaps, slightly more detailed.
From there, (to address Iain's point), early interaction would be mostly internal--building infrastructure, industry within the fiefdom, stability, whatnot. Maybe creating some NPC advisors. External affairs would be NPC too. For instance, an NPC Fallien merchant, an NPC noble of another nearby land. Lots of solos involved, most likely.
And here's the difference between fiefdoms and characters: Rather than upgrading at each level, they could be upgraded after each quest. Granted, major upgrades would have to be wider-spread than that, but at the end of each quest, the judging mod (or maybe specific fiefdom mods?) would edit in changes to the fiefdom's statistics.
I would try to steer away from too much mathematics, Nein. That could get really complicated very quickly, and could require a ton of supervision and maintenance. Maybe it would be better to leave it (for the most part) subjective and approval based?
EDIT: Oy, you people are quick...ninja'd x like 6
If you insist.
Mathematics is concrete, and I lack any greater trust of subjective systems simply because that's what they are: subjected to someone else's discretion.
Rajani Aishwara
02-25-07, 09:27 PM
If you insist.
Mathematics is concrete, and I lack any greater trust of subjective systems simply because that's what they are: subjected to someone else's discretion.
Althanas is a roleplaying game based primarily on writing. Unfortunately subjective is what writing is. To some Plato's Republic is a work of genius, to others it's crap. I know you may be one of those people who isn't intimidated by mathamatics, but this site is mostly populated by writers who'd rather worry about writing well than anything else.
Perhaps Ashiakin can give you a copy of the old feifdom system, and you'd have something to work off of.
Seconded. Althanas is incredibly subjective--from character creation and approval to scoring and advancement to character interaction and region setting. I think it'd be fitting (and less intimidating) if fiefdoms were similar.
Also, I agree with Rajani that the old fiefdom system was really nice. I didn't have enough GP at the time to pounce on it, but I would have at closest opportunity. All I really would have added would be a PG-Treasury-esque stat thread, for easier monitoring. A lot could stem from that. And then, again, a few systems for economic giggles.
A little mathematics isn't bad, and I do think a small, constant flow of GP from an estate would be a good incentive for more activity. After all, the amount of EXP you get from a quest is formula based, derived from score and current level. Perhaps a fiefdom's constant GP output could be based on such a formula? Personally, I would derive it from the fiefdom's economic state. The "market score" from earlier. Again, it'd encourage activity--to increase profit output, you'd have to raise your market standing by questing and building your fiefdom's economy. That in turn would encourage interaction between existing fiefdoms.
I actually applaud Nein's notions for a mathematically balanced fiefdom system, but I can tell you now that it would be too tiresome for your basic writer. Intense foresight and intricacy is not always what works best. I supported the exponential equations implemented for EXP calculations because I saw how the beauty of numbers could keep things 'even' for everyone. However, in that case, the equations were never revealed to the public.
For the fiefdoms, as I think will work best, we should stick with straight-forward mathematics that everyone can see affects people equally while still leaving individual fiefdoms a lot of freedom. Equality is nice and all, Nein, but can you imagine if we had a calculation for profile creation limiting powers numerically? Subjectivity is the beauty of our forum.
Lucien, by the way, I have an HTML for EXP calculation that can make your trouble with exponents disappear for judgments.
I'm fine with calculating, I know my math well enough to do it with my computer calculator.
True, subjectivity has it's uses - ease and simplicity first.
Mathematics were only intended to level the playing ground, before everyone was set loose upon it to do as they pleased. Starting populations and terrain remain to the discretion of the judging moderator, as do natural resources and other such details.
As a note, I despise heavily numerical based character sheets in an writing RP realm. Perhaps the reason I've left behind yet another forum in it's failings.
I assume Ashiakin will come around and judge these ideas?
Trying to figure this out, fiefdoms are cool and all, but is there much point beyond the gimmick?
Boosting Salvic/regional activity and storyline involvement.
Well yes, that's the point of new features/ideas. I'm just trying to grasp how fiefdoms would really change anything except add more beaurocracy to things.
A faction-questboard sorta things seem like it would be a good way to use the faction system though, seems to me like people always like questboards, and it would tie people in with the various factions fairly nicely I think.
Rajani Aishwara
02-26-07, 12:07 AM
It's not a gimmick. At least no more a gimmick than the Citadel, Istien University, or event the Bazaar. It's a unique and interactive element that makes Salvar unique. And unless every single active player purchased a feifdom it wouldn't add much to the beaurocracy at all if done right
Jasmine
02-26-07, 01:10 AM
i really liked the fiefdom system that was first implemented and would useit again if it was put up again. I have a character that is owned by a Salvic lord. The nly thing I really disagreed with was the cost. (fortunately for me, i'd made my fief and gotten it approved before he added that in, so i didn't have to pay). I do have an idea for a fief that will actually generate my account some money though, but I'm not telling anyone what it is just yet ;) but I would still like to retain my NPC's home estate fiefdom that is more or less self-sufficient.
Ashiakin
02-27-07, 01:57 PM
I am very busy with papers and tests this week, so unfortunately I have not gotten a chance to look over all the replies to this thread. Feel free to continue to debate and post ideas and I will reply to everything directed toward me when I can--probably this weekend or sometime early next week.
Arawn, I got your PM. I will take a look at it as soon as I can. Thanks for the input.
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