Bazaar Request

[Arawn]

Forgive me if what I’m asking for here is already listed somewhere, but I haven’t found it…

I'm actually very much in favor for the apparent elimination of hierarchical tiers in material listings and all, but I think we should have a listing of metal strengths in order. Metal and wood descriptions make sense in the context that each can be bought for different uses, but sometimes you just don’t care how magically sensitive something is and just want to know what’s tougher. If anything, the descriptions now seem to favor characters with enchanting in mind a little bit.

I tried to deduce the strength order from the list, but I got stumped by:


* Mythril: Possibly the most beautiful out of all the metals, this white metal is also the lightest. It is stronger than any other metal except Adamantine.

…

* Prevalida: A blue metal, Prevalida is stronger than mythril and slightly heavier than Damascus.


Once more, I applaud the material reformatting. It’s great to have such in-depth knowledge of the material choices. I just think we can add this in as well, while still noting that some materials’ characteristics don’t lend well for certain things (i.e. mythril’s lightness making it bad for weaponry).

[Letho]

I think the mythril/prevalida issue was more of a glitch, something that Madison missed when he made the list. I'm sure he'll fix it as soon as he sees this thread.

As for the toughness of materials, I think the reason why the strengths weren't listed specifically was because the difference between the metals isn't as great as it once was. I mean, no metal can really cut through another metal with ease, not even adamantine (even though nothing can still cut through adamantine), so technically you could break a damascus blade with a steel one if you struck it the right way. It's more like you now have different types of same metal, each with its own name and specific characteristics. That's my opinion anyways.

[AdventWings]

In other words, more realistic comparison between metals, Nya~ ^_^

[Lucien]

Letho, you mean break. Swords don't normally "cut" metal very well. Weaker metals maybe, but that totally depends on the sharpness. Swords break and fracture other swords, so that's totally up to the metal's strength, although Adamantine isn't going to break anything without the most inhuman forces imaginable.

Like slayer.

[Letho]

Yeah, "break" is what I meant to say, although swords are also used to pierce metal plates. Either way, the point is that with proper use, you could technically now break a mythril blade with a steel one, for example, if you strike the flat side of the blade in a certain position and that wouldn't be considered powergaming.

And if I recall correctly, Adamantine is indestructible, so nothing breaks it. Not even powergamy characters. :P

[Raelyse]

Then what's the point of making one metal more expensive than another? Just because it's prettier? I still think we need a comparative metal strength table or something.

[Arawn]

And if I recall correctly, Adamantine is indestructible, so nothing breaks it. Not even powergamy characters. :P

My ears are burning and I suddenly want to make a thread where I'm chewing down and Adamantine plate.:o

I understand your point, Letho. I get that there's no 'not-worth-having' metal that can't break any of the others. However, like Rae said, we pay different prices for different metals and our characters would realistically like to know what's stronger to use in their purchases, even if none of them are so bad they can't conceivably destroy a weapon cast in a stronger material. I mean, there's already a huge magical comparison between metals. I just want a physical one.

[AdventWings]

From my understanding...

Metal strength is...

Tin<Lead<Iron<Steel=Plynt<Dehlar<Delyn<Damascus<Mythril<Prevalida<Titanium<Adamantium

And if you asked, I guess the strength for Plynt because there was nothing to reference to in the text... :p

[Letho]

My ears are burning and I suddenly want to make a thread where I'm chewing down and Adamantine plate.:o

I understand your point, Letho. I get that there's no 'not-worth-having' metal that can't break any of the others. However, like Rae said, we pay different prices for different metals and our characters would realistically like to know what's stronger to use in their purchases, even if none of them are so bad they can't conceivably destroy a weapon cast in a stronger material. I mean, there's already a huge magical comparison between metals. I just want a physical one.I feel sorry for your digestion. :P

And I'm not saying that toughness of materials shouldn't be mentioned. I'm just saying that it's not as important as it once was. I'd like to hear Madison's view on the whole deal though, since he's pretty much in charge of all the edits when it comes to material description.
From my understanding...

Metal strength is...

Tin<Lead<Iron<Steel=Plynt<Dehlar<Delyn<Damascus<My thril<Prevalida<Titanium<AdamantiumI always thought that Titanium was somewhere between Damascus and Mythril, but everything else seems pretty much in order.

[Ataraxis]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Icemold could pretty much shatter Adamantium! :D

[AdventWings]

Ooh, yeah... Forgot about Icemold and Osmium...

Though anything cut by Icemold would not shatter, but rather simply cleave.

The only kind of metal that could "shatter" when struck the right way would be Damascus against Prevalida. :p

EDIT: My bad, it's Damascus! :p

[Reiko]

Ooh, yeah... Forgot about Icemold and Osmium...

Though anything cut by Icemold would not shatter, but rather simply cleave.

The only kind of metal that could "shatter" when struck the right way would be Damascus against Prevalida. :p

EDIT: My bad, it's Damascus! :p

actually Delyn will shatter like a staff of magi when broken.

To tell the truth the strength of metals doesn't matter at all it was always up to the writer whether or not the weapon or armor would break no matter the tier or material. Although I agree that materials don't really matter and they didn't when the tier system was in place. The current system needs more unique materials that have an effect on the combat. Plynte is the only material that knowing what it can do would affect roleplaying because you can light it on fire. There's too much like Titanium , which says it's better for guns but there's no way to show how a titanium gun would be better than a damascus gun, note the tier system didn't help materials were simply better without a reason why or how they would be better.

My point is we need more amterials like Plynt where a player could go, Hmm I can light my sword on fire with a match, cool! we need effects that show during roleplaying.

[AdventWings]

So far, asides from Plynt, there is Dehlar that is quite resistent against magic but fairly malleable, Damascus that is strong but prone to getting jolted by hostile magic, Delyn that is half-and-half of each.

Oh, and Prevalida that can act as channel and defense against magic.

Other than that, I don't see much. ^_^;

[Letho]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Icemold could pretty much shatter Adamantium!This is actually the first time I heard of Icemold. However, now that I looked over it, there are definitely some contradictions. In Adamantine description it's clearly stated that it's indestructible, and yet immediately beneath that description it's said that Icemold could cut through Adamantine. Another thing that needs to be corrected one way or the other, I think.

Either way, Icemold stuff isn't infallible though. It could pierce Adamantine if used properly just as a steel weapon could go through titanium. But if an Adamantine weapon clashed with an Icemold one blade on blade, technically it is the Icemold weapon that would shatter because Icemold stuff is usually destroyed after one shot.

EDIT: Now that I think of it, I need to get some Icemold weapons. They seem perfect for throwing weapons or arrow heads.


EDIT2: Let us not forget the lightness of mythril.

However, I have to disagree that we need more unique materials, especially when it comes to metals. We don't need a metal for every single idea that pops in our heads. That's why we have enchantments and metals that are easily enchanted. That way everybody can personalize their own weapon without making the list of metals a mile long.

[Fenris]

Question: My other character, Kalamu Eusimoto, has a Cillu (shard-glass) shamshir. I had it enchanted to be stronger than normal just in case, but...I never really was quite sure how strong Cillu is. How does it compare to the other metals?

[Atzar]

How do you guys figure that material strength doesn't really matter? If a steel sword meets a bronze sword with any sort of force, the bronze one is scrap metal before too long.

I'd actually like to see weapons break more often on Althanas. It's a real occurrence that I'd like to see happen more often for flavor. If a level 4 battles a level 0, it's usually a blowout, right? Well, what if the level 4's weapon breaks? Then it becomes a whole new story, and it would probably spark interest in the mind of the reader (cough*judge*cough) too.

[AdventWings]

Yes, then it would be realistic for weapons to actually break once and a while. I've seen several people swing their sword around so carelessly, bouncing off rocks and walls so much you'd think their arm breaks but the sword isn't even chipped or anything.

You can't blame them for being too attached to their favorite weapon, though. :p Or maybe you could...?

Well, either way... About Cillu.

I believe its strength is subjective for the most parts. In the Fallien Material Description, it is said that it is used as construction material, sacred knives and armor. From that, it may be concluded that strength along the plane would be fairly comparable to iron or even steel, whereas strength along the perpendicular plane would be a bit less. To be able to make into armor (whether or not it is functional, that remains to be seen), that would mean it can take quite a beating as well.

Maybe the Valkyrie can shed some light into this matter. Once she logs in, of course.

[Letho]

Yeah, a lot of people are very attached to their weapons. Imagine Christina Bredith's Rosebite broken (though, technically it would probably just break down into a whip-like weapon, but that's besides the point), or anybody whose weapon has some history directly linked to their character. People don't want to sacrifice that just to get a point or two extra for realism. I think there has to be something very important for people to do that. For example, Letho had his bastard sword from the moment I registered to Althanas all the way to the Serenti Finals where he cast it away as he forfeited the match. And even then I had a hard time parting with it.

Also, Atzar, I think the idea isn't that toughness of material doesn't matter, but rather that it doesn't matter that much. I mean, when you compare bronze to steel, then yes, bronze would chip and break before long. However, when you do the same with tempered steel and titanium, the difference isn't that great. I'm pretty certain that if you'd do that in real world (though Althanas technically doesn't follow all the rules of physics ;)), the steel blade could hold its own against the titanium one for a while. I think that the toughness of metals should be on a curve, and that the stronger the metal is, the smaller the difference is between it and the one below it.

[Sighter Tnailog]

You make an excellent point, Letho.

Allow me to clarify some of the things we've talked about. First off, there is more to a material than "strength." Allow me to explain.

First there is "hardness," which is the ability of a material to withstand deformation in terms of scratches, dents or bends.

Second there is "toughness," which is the ability to withstand breakage. A "hard" material may still break into pieces, even though each of those pieces has not been scratched, dented, or bent. This is why diamond is not used for weapons: it's hard, not tough. If you apply enough force to opposite ends of a diamond with a fulcrum in the center, the diamond will NOT bend...it will break.

When I say "strength," I am attempting to define these weapons in terms of a composite of these two ideas, for the sake of clarity.

I shall edit the descriptions of Mythril and Prevalida. What I mean to say is this: Mythril is tougher than Prevalida. Prevalida shatters more readily. But Prevalida is harder than Mythril, as if you rub Prevalida against Mythril it is the Mythril that will get scratched.

I am trying NOT to rate materials in terms of their strength on any simplistic chain of events. This is what I want people to understand: materials are more than simply "this is stronger than that." You don't buy a damascus blade just because you think it works better than steel; you buy it because you know it has properties that could help you in a fight.

As to Icemold v. Adamantine. Icemold will shatter almost moments after passing through Adamantine, but it is capable of doing so because Icemold is made out of a magic quite similar to that which crafted Adamantine so long ago.

[Letho]

Thanks for that input, Madison. It definitely clears some things up. One thing though, about Icemold vs. Adamantine. I think there is a distinct difference between what happens when Icemold blade meets an Adamantine breastplate and when Icemold blade meets and Adamantine blade (or any other blade for that matter). While in the first situation Icemold might go through Adamantine if enough power was put behind the strike, it's different when two blades meet. Generally, metal used in armor is different then the one used in the blades which is folded and tempered and whatnot, which makes it considerably more durable. So the hardness/toughness/strength of a certain metal isn't exactly the same in all items made from that metal. Just some food for thought I guess.