Althanas Direction Discussion

[Serilliant]

This discussion has stemmed from The Newest (and Best Ever) Podcast (http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=5355). It is being kept in the open so as not to censor the discussion. While this thread is closed to further input, if any members feel any desire to discuss any of the issues raised in this thread, please feel free to create a new thread in the Your Word forum.

[Ther]

I think you're really over thinking the climate and geography of Althanas. It's a fantasy and part of fantasy's charm is people don't ask why when it comes to that kind of thing.

Well, I think people have a right and should and can "Ask why," but I think the "why" doesn't necessarily have to conform to real-world weather patterns, or topographies, or physics, etc. provided there's justification for that.


Having a world and regions is completely silly if we don't know for sure where the regions are in relation to one another.

But we do know, although for some reason the map never seems to stay in one place.
The great criticism of fantasy is that it is "escapist." This has been charged within literary criticism since at least the 19th century, but it's probably been around as long as parents have been alive to tell their children to get their heads out of the clouds and think of real things for a change.]

Sadly, that's the burden of any "shared world," whether it's Althanas, Toril, the Expanded Star Wars Universe, etc. - you can have to leave room open for non-canonical development to keep people interested in the setting.

If anything, I've always thought that Althanas' problem wasn't with the historical detail or the such but rather with the lack of ability to maintain a good, strong, canonical storyline in the "present."


The great criticism of fantasy is that it is "escapist." This has been charged within literary criticism since at least the 19th century, but it's probably been around as long as parents have been alive to tell their children to get their heads out of the clouds and think of real things for a change.

Not to be snooty, but you can trace it back to the late 8th century and the monk Alcuin writing to his fellows back home in England asking "What does Ingeld have to do with Christ?"

[Cyrus the virus]

Maybe you know. Or you think you know. We all have different ideas of what Althanas looks like, and the discussion of it in the mod forum seems to be going nowhere. What we need is an artist we can collaborate with and hammer out where the existing regions are, and where the yet-to-be-made regions can be! Like Suikoden.

[Ther]

Maybe you know. Or you think you know. We all have different ideas of what Althanas looks like, and the discussion of it in the mod forum seems to be going nowhere. What we need is an artist we can collaborate with and hammer out where the existing regions are, and where the yet-to-be-made regions can be! Like Suikoden.

Or rather you think that I don't think I know - as the owner of the site, I DO KNOW, but a secondary reason, and a more logical one is because I'm one creative mind working alone in that respect. This really isn't a moderator issue, it's an owner issue and my responsibility.

So I already KNOW where the existing regions are (hell, the map should still be on the server, although I've kept my CC3 version private to this point) and where the yet-to-be-made-regions-but-which-won't-ever-be-touched-until-the-other-ones-are-perfected are.

And I don't know what Suikoden is, but I'll assume it's some sort of Japanese world-building sim or anime or something?

[Cyrus the virus]

Why then haven't you uploaded it to an easy-to-access place and made sure all of the region writers and staff are also understanding? Because some of us are pretty divided on the issue, much of the region information is not accurate, and new members have a hard time finding where everything lies in relation to everything else. Does your vision of Althanas' regions would fit in with our region administrator's?

Keeping your personal map secret actually baffles me a lot. Althanas has changed a lot over time, in a way that might change the way your map is drawn up. If it had been public we probably could have kept things consistent with that. I dunno.

Suikoden's a series of RPGs and some anime. Amazing world with plenty of space for new games to be made in different parts of the map.

Sorry if I seem combative here, it's unintentional if so.

[Ther]

Why then haven't you uploaded it to an easy-to-access place and made sure all of the region writers and staff are also understanding? Because some of us are pretty divided on the issue, much of the region information is not accurate, and new members have a hard time finding where everything lies in relation to everything else. Does your vision of Althanas' regions would fit in with our region administrator's?

Keeping your personal map secret actually baffles me a lot. Althanas has changed a lot over time, in a way that might change the way your map is drawn up. If it had been public we probably could have kept things consistent with that. I dunno.

Suikoden's a series of RPGs and some anime. Amazing world with plenty of space for new games to be made in different parts of the map.

Sorry if I seem combative here, it's unintentional if so.

Well, the reason is, frankly, CC3 is incredibly difficult to learn and work with, so I'm not happy with the way the map appears at the moment nor with the icons available to work with, but if there's an incredible demand to see a pretty unadorned map, whether public or private in the moderator forum, I can certainly provide that.


Does your vision of Althanas' regions would fit in with our region administrator's?

I respect his ideas and thoughts, but the so-called "power dynamic" IS the other way around here, keep in mind.

[Cyrus the virus]

Have you been keeping tabs on exactly how the regions have been evolving and changing? I dunno, I'm a bit skeptical about the potential problem of folks having to change things up because their vision of things don't work with yours. It's a problem that makes sense in my mind, because I can imagine the headaches it could cause.

[Ther]

Have you been keeping tabs on exactly how the regions have been evolving and changing? I dunno, I'm a bit skeptical about the potential problem of folks having to change things up because their vision of things don't work with yours. It's a problem that makes sense in my mind, because I can imagine the headaches it could cause.

What you're asking me isn't so much a "What's the right geography question?" as it is a "What about people not wanting to be edited?" question. Frankly those who can't take constructive criticism on their work have no place on the staff, and really, the Althanas system has never treated them so kindly as a player either, with the judging and all.

No one here, myself included, is above that process.

[Cyrus the virus]

But what you're suggesting wouldn't be constructive criticism, it would be 'make your regions fit to my map'. Considering you made this map privately and haven't shared it with us, you're pretty much guaranteeing that at some point, people will have to conform to what you've creation. I would argue that such a situation would be greatly unjust and not fair to our region writers/administrator. We're more a team now than we ever were while I've been on staff, and this potential situation seems counter-productive to that, in my opinion.

I feel you should have shared this with us much earlier, as we've been talking about hiring someone to make a map for a little while now. If we had done so, not realizing your stance on this, it would have led to a lot of needless frustration.

[Sighter Tnailog]

Let's not get too into this issue here, although I will side with Cyrus and say that if Matt's vision collides with the vision of the regions administrator or the continental writers, preference should be given to that vision which has been fleshed out the most, given shape and substance, and incorporated into an existing continent. Constructive criticism is one thing, but exercising a creative veto is entirely another -- especially if the veto is being exercised against material that has already been established for years as canon.

If you want your vision incorporated into Althanas, Matt, you should inform others of that vision and then exercise oversight to see it integrated properly as things are created. I feel like I've said this time and again, but if you wait to force your idea on someone after they've already worked in one paradigm for a lengthy period of time, the result is confusion, resentment, and ultimately some very pissed off moderators and players.

To date, I haven't seen you do such a thing. But your constant assertion that you have the power to do such a thing bothers me greatly. So I will state a counter-assertion: if you do not involve yourself in the process of writing the Althanas canon, then it is no one's fault but your own when the Althanas canon develops contrary to your ideas. We'll take your advice and your criticism if offered in a timely fashion as we develop the canon. But what continent writers and players interested in the continents will not abide is having their work edited from on high. What often makes people uncomfortable with the leadership style you have articulated, Matt, is that it seems to assume that you have a privileged historical knowledge of Althanas that no one else has, and the reason we don't have it is that somehow we aren't mature enough to handle it. And, frankly, if there is any elitism on this site, it's that attitude that gets me every time.

But that's more than I intended to say on that subject, so moving to another. Technically speaking, the invention of the critical method that derides fantastical thought could be traced even to Thucydides, with his excoriation of crazy appeals to the gods during the Plague of Athens and his clear rebuttal of the more incredible tales of Herodotus. But "escapism" as a term actually originates in the 20th century, around the 1930s, so even a bit after the 19th century.

[Karuka]

I agree with Sighter. (ZOMG, non-staff inserting her two bits!)

Santh, if your map and your canon come in after canon has already been established and used, after it's part of the culture, not only are you going to get a "kweh-bleh!?" reaction from everyone, it isn't likely to be followed. This is because after introduction and usage, canon becomes part of the culture. You don't go into Mexico and say "right, now your culture is not sombreros and rodeos and confetti eggs at Easter. You're switching cultures with Tanzania. Isn't that great!" You'd be laughed out of the country and ignored...at best.

In other words...a new culture would go down about as well as the "No Child Left Behind" program. That's why Sighter's having trouble eradicating the "Alerar is the home of the Drow, and Raiaera is the home of the High Elves" from the rest of Althanas. It's ingrained. Also, from what I have observed over the last few months, it has been a lack of communication from Staff that has caused the most furor. Your tacitness on how you want the site to progress will only hinder your efforts and might even start an Althanas OOC Civil War that would turn my favorite site on the internet into a pit full of monkeys slinging poop everywhere.

And that is my two bits.

[Ther]

But what you're suggesting wouldn't be constructive criticism, it would be 'make your regions fit to my map'. Considering you made this map privately and haven't shared it with us, you're pretty much guaranteeing that at some point, people will have to conform to what you've creation.

And now you're delving into the whole "this is subjective and opinion" issue - and you know what, I'll absolutely take you up on it. Yes, in my opinion, having things a certain way would be better then having things another certain way, just like having things a third way might be better then route A and B.

And yes, I have shared the map publicly, in fact, I've shared it several times, both on this forum and through IM. Anyone here with a shred of honesty or effort will, I have no doubts, remember this, since I've spoken to people about it lord knows how many times and have had it posted several times. In fact, I bet if you just click on my user name on look, oh, I don't know, 300 or 400 posts before this one you'll find those threads, barring some sort of deletion.


I would argue that such a situation would be greatly unjust and not fair to our region writers/administrator. We're more a team now than we ever were while I've been on staff, and this potential situation seems counter-productive to that, in my opinion.

And guess what? You're arguing based on some sort of ethical or moral code which is, in the end, us dancing around the same exact subjectivity I mentioned before, since we all have different ethics I hate to sound like a realist, and I hate to sound like my feet are on the earth rather then my head in the clouds, but the thing that matters most isn't what's 'fair,' or 'nice,' or whatever adjective you want to throw out there that appeals to ethics or passions rather then logic, sad but true. What's important above any ideas of 'fairness,' is that a) we produce a fun environment for the players to post in and b) that we keep attracting new players and growing our community.

Now, do you want to treat people the right way? Of course, no one would argue otherwise. But, if there's one thing that's going to be better for the site in the long run, and that thing is thrust aside in favor of 'we don't want to offend anyone' or we don't want to hurt X's 'feelings,' then you're hurting the site.


If you want your vision incorporated into Althanas, Matt, you should inform others of that vision and then exercise oversight to see it integrated properly as things are created. I feel like I've said this time and again, but if you wait to force your idea on someone after they've already worked in one paradigm for a lengthy period of time, the result is confusion, resentment, and ultimately some very pissed off moderators and players.

And I've never indicated otherwise. However, you eventually have to take a look at the site and see whether or not it's running properly in its content, in its structure, in its staffing, in its features, and so forth, and whether things are helping matters, or hurting them. While such an analysis is not for this forum, the idea and knowledge that it should take place is in fact any idea or concern of public record.


To date, I haven't seen you do such a thing. But your constant assertion that you have the power to do such a thing bothers me greatly. So I will state a counter-assertion: if you do not involve yourself in the process of writing the Althanas canon, then it is no one's fault but your own when the Althanas canon develops contrary to your ideas.

Because I've been showing tact, and consideration, that's why I haven't done such a thing, and I've been staying away on purpose trying to give people space and time to flesh out ideas and thoughts, and the such. Well, how much time do I give people to whittle away at this before I look to my spending money trying to bring people in, and realize, "Hey, maybe things aren't working out as properly as we'd like." What you're effectively stating is "You gave us a lot of time without any editing, and you don't think it works now, so you shouldn't try to come in and fix it." Well, guess what, now that I'm saying it may be time to fix it, I shouldn't do that because it wouldn't be "fair." You can't have it both ways.

[Cyrus the virus]

When you hoard your ownership over the site over us all and have sole creative control over everything, you're hurting the site.

I recall your maps, though I forget which are the newer ones. As far as I remember, they were obselete and rather ugly (I don't say this to be a ball-puncher, I'm saying it because it's true). Worse than what's capable with RPG maker 2000. More than anything, I remember thinking to myself "hmm, that's not where this area is according to the region writer" concerning some things.

So as you can see, I'm not arguing for what's fair, but what makes sense from a team perspective. If your map doesn't work with what's been changed it'll be largely because you haven't been an active participant in Althanas' evolution. If at that point, you want things to change to adapt to your map, then I'll argue about fairness.

Must state again that this might come across as a lot more aggressive than I mean it to.

[Ther]

But what continent writers and players interested in the continents will not abide is having their work edited from on high.

Then they should quit, right now. Because that's not the way this site is going to succeed, that's never been the way it's succeeded in the past, that's not the way any creative endeavor has succeeded, and having a committee system running everything, as we do now, pretty much results in two things: a) things take way too long to find a decision, if ever, and b) people generally start to hate each other as they're frustrated by a process.


What often makes people uncomfortable with the leadership style you have articulated, Matt, is that it seems to assume that you have a privileged historical knowledge of Althanas that no one else has, and the reason we don't have it is that somehow we aren't mature enough to handle it. And, frankly, if there is any elitism on this site, it's that attitude that gets me every time.


Wrong - it has nothing to do with any idea of "privileged historical knowledge" and everything to do with the simlacrum of power structures, which in this case pretty much means having a resistance to commentary on your work. I'm not going to fault anyone for having that, since I'm sure we all feel it more or less to some degree - I feel nervous telling my own research to one of the world's leading scholars (if not THE leading scholar) in my field, even though I know he considers me in the absolute earliest stage of my career and likes me personally. But what I do recognize is that a) he's in a position of power above me, both politically and in terms of the experience and knowledge, and can help me become a better scholar and b) it's therefore important for me to build a relationship, let him know what I'm working on, and get the appropriate feedback. That's the way professional life works.


Santh, if your map and your canon come in after canon has already been established and used, after it's part of the culture, not only are you going to get a "kweh-bleh!?" reaction from everyone, it isn't likely to be followed. This is because after introduction and usage, canon becomes part of the culture. You don't go into Mexico and say "right, now your culture is not sombreros and rodeos and confetti eggs at Easter. You're switching cultures with Tanzania. Isn't that great!" You'd be laughed out of the country and ignored...at best.

And Karuka, your argument is entirely misplaced because that's not what I SAID - that's what Cyrus is saying, and, while rhetorically it benefits his argument, it's not the truth. I never said there'd be a "Blammo!" and suddenly everything's different - what I said was that there's no established map in canon (other then what, it seems, I've made with CC2), people can't agree on one because the staffing situation is so out-of-whack, what has been theorized for one isn't exactly earth-shattering, and so on and so on.

All of this over just asking people to accept editing.

Oh, and Batman Begins, Casino Royale, DC's comic book series 52, Marvel's Ultimate series, and the television show Lost are all notable examples of media that have either rebooted or seriously edited their respective milieus and been rejuvenized.

But, of course, the question then becomes - if you're going to be so smart-allecky about this, Santh, then other then heavy, heavy editing, what's your solution for getting a firm, fast-moving creative process in place?

Honestly, the only way to do that is by stepping on toes, and what we need is not someone who can manage a bunch of different cooks trying to make one single broth, which has never worked on the site, but rather to put a firm deadline for finalizing content, or, well, get rid of the cooks and find a HEAD CHEF.

So the best thing for the site is to find a Lead Writer, preferably someone right now who is already in a writing capacity for one of the regions or the Regions Admin or someone like Sighter or Zieg who has been involved in it recently, and invest in that person all the power to make any Althanas creative content decisions pretty much omnipotently because, right now, the process is too slow-moving and is damaging the site. I don't really care to volunteer for it, because, as I've alluded to earlier, I like working on my own Althanas-related material that could be used in a pinch, and because I'd prefer someone who's active in it right now.

What this means is that "power" is much more centralized, sure, but so too centralized is the creative process and potential to get a good, firm ground of content done, and so too is accountability for it.

[Serilliant]

This conversation has ceased to be productive and is, quite honestly, troubling. The moment anyone suggests that Althanas members staff or otherwise should "quit" is the moment the line is crossed.

What Althanas is and should continue to be is a community of writers and roleplayers gathered together for two common goals: to have fun with each other and to learn from each other. What Althanas is not is a realm of politics and power struggles to decide whose canon is 'right' and whose is 'wrong'. This thread is stepping on the common right of our members to write to their own creative lengths and to participate in a living, breathing, ever-changing world.

My sincerest apologies to our podcast hosts for drifting away from the topic. In the interest of Althanas, this conversation is now over.