New Power Group Rules Discussion

[Massacre]

This is the place to do it. If you have comments, questions, or anything of the like, post them here.

[Sighter Tnailog]

If you have criticism, please direct it to Max Dirks. This is all his doing!

[Reiko]

I do think the HQ rules are much better, though the other rules are all focussed on cutthroat side of PGs. there's little focus on advantages of being a member of a PG that doesn't own or try to own an HQ. There should be some PG bonuses that doesn't revolve around raids and clan wars. I guess the other bonuses are up tp the PG leaders it would have been nice to have some bonuses for PGs that quest together and the like.

[Massacre]

There's nothing stopping players from questing with each other. Think of ways to advance your PG without raiding if you so please. There's always the option to make truces if you want as well.

[Ranger]

Yeah... I uhhhh, I don't like it. It takes a creative writing forum and turns one of the more vital and unique parts (in my opinion at least) of the site and makes it more precise and almost DnD like.

All the upgrades, all the little defenses and offenses, fees and treasuries... It's an awesome idea, but would work better for Medieval Total War than Althanas.

This is going to take the perfectly good idea of PG's straight from fun to hard work. And that takes A LOT of the fun out of it...


EDIT:

It's also a GREAT boon for the pg's completely reliant on warfar and fighting. Whereas those of us such as the RH, which is just to survive and profit from economic growth..., are going to constantly be picked on. In turn, that is going to FORCE us to fight more, meaning less of our original idea and more defense.

I don't like the idea of having to fight off constant raids by the little people that just want to have a chunk of the money that probably took a quest that was both a low score AND hard to write to begin with. As such, I am, as of yet, unimpressed and rather disappointed.

I was looking forward to something fair, something a bit flexible, and something that we could easily work with and around.

[Karuka]

I disagree.

Joining a PG to have it go inactive due to lack of interest takes a lot of the fun out of it.

The new rules make it so that if you're going to join or create a PG, you'd best have some interest in maintaining it, otherwise it's going to be taken away.

Besides, a little hard work in a creative aspect tends to make it better quality. And from what I've observed around Althy, we love better quality.

[Massacre]

@ Osato

The end results of raids and clan wars are determined by the writing, not the amount of upgrades you have, though they help with what you gain out of it.

If you don't want to participate in clan wars or raids then talk with other leaders about a truce of sorts.

[Ranger]

But that apparently won't profit you any at all... making truces will just transform the PG's back into what they were just before we got rid of the HQ's years back. It'll end up being just the three holders, allied, stopping any threats... and boring.

Numbers may not matter, writing will, but it seems there are an awful lot of numbers for not mattering...

[Massacre]

There is more than one way to earn gold. You can still do PG quests as a whole and give gold, save up, and eventually try your hand at getting an HQ. I think we'll get a better idea of how exactly it works once people get going with the PGs

I never stated the numbers didn't matter, just that there wasn't as big of an influence as the actual writing. I think this has potential to be fun.

[Ranger]

So, we have the option of warfare with other clans to gain an HQ. Or, we can do multiple clan quests and try and buy one before all the warring clans take them? Seems that one would be easier than the other, right?

And, that if the one money making clan who's trying to buy the HQ happens to get enough money, and the slots are taken... then they went through a lot of trouble for not all too much. And then, they have the choice of living without one, or changing their IC values and ideals so that they can have an OOC HQ, correct? Starts to pull the OOC and IC realm into a rather muddled state...

And this thread was made for questions, concerns, and criticisms... I thought. That's what discussions are, lol.

[Massacre]

I understand that, I meant to say you can save up the gold and buy upgrades which will give you the incentive to really write better. That's what I think will happen. With the promise of more gold I think people will try a bit harder.

I think the only way to win an HQ is through a Clan War, so there are no two options. That's the way I understand it from the rules at least.

[Ranger]

Incentive is completely based on personal motivation, but that's not what this topic is about...

I think we got mixed up... I was under the impression that your last post said that you could technically 'buy' a HQ, which confused me. But i see now that I misread your post.

(I have, however, not slept in two days... so I'm going to drop this argument at the moment and let someone else realize what I am talking about, or call me an idiot. Either way's cool...)

[Massacre]

Incentive is based on a number of factors -- personal motivation, reward, and stress. Either way, there's no need to worry yet, if at all, because only 1 PG has been registered. Seeing how this plays out will be interesting though, the way Clan Wars and Raids are set up give a tournament-like feel, which is a new feel for PGs for any of us who haven't been around as long as some. While at the same time you can quest outside of all that for the benefit of your PG if you please.

[Reiko]

Ranger's right, the system really supports only the top PGs and once they get settled in their HQs there will be little reason to join the PGs that don't have an HQ. Also the cutthroat nature will go against beginners and lesser skilled writers that would like the society that being in a PG grants. Minimum scores will once again become the norm since recruiting players like Letho, Storm and INDK would greatly help a PG win a clan war or raid while hiring a newbie would only lower the score and ergo are not wanted.

Also there just needs to be incentives that don't revolve around the cutthroat nature of the new PG system. Ranger's right and PGs like the red hand arn't based on fighting and shouldn't be but without raids and or taking over the HQ it'll be difficult for a PG to offer a player anything that they could not get themselves. while there is no rule that says PG can't qluest to better themselves the rules make it feel that PG quests are only there to allow the PG to buy upgrades that support Raids and clan wars.

[Massacre]

Remember that you two are saying things about a system that has no registered groups even. You're assuming that there will be a Clan Storm VaLetho and they'll be tyrannical and horrid. If the Red Hand and another financial Power Group wanted to write a Clan War not necessarily about fighting but about method of financial takeover or something of the like, I'm sure that if both parties agreed that would be fine, possibly winning an HQ if there's an open one. Though you may have to write a battle-style Clan War if a group already owns one and you're trying to get it.

War isn't only fighting.

[Patois]

If the Red Hand and another financial Power Group wanted to write a Clan War not necessarily about fighting but about method of financial takeover or something of the like, I'm sure that if both parties agreed that would be fine, possibly winning an HQ if there's an open one. Though you may have to write a battle-style Clan War if a group already owns one and you're trying to get it.

War isn't only fighting.

While I've been thinking alongside Ranger and Reiko on this one, I'm glad this finally got mentioned (or I was going to have to.) One thing to keep in mind would be alternative methods of "raids/wars". Sure, we all think of things like one side riding into the base or HQ of another and engaging in smash and grab. That's traditional warfare.

But a Raid in a PG's funds could just as easily be one side bribing or working some NPC guards into funnelling funds away while the defender hunts down the mole. A war could be a legal debate held in front of some governing court over land rights where a HQ is located. Likewise, a war could just as easily be subversive- the attacking group could kill off the livestock around an enemy HQ, attack supply shipments, poison or taint their water source; while the defending group tries to hang on through the siege or find other means of getting their necessities.

Yes, looking at them, the new rules seems only geared towards the warring PGs, but only slightly; I don't think the system's quite as inflexible as it may look.

[Massacre]

I agree. People are defining what Clan War and Raiding is too strictly, not everything is like an armed robbery.

[Reiko]

well my problem is the system is cutthroat and that's pretty much all a PG can do is rob another PG or attack (whether conventional war or something else.) simply put there needs to be something to PGs other than raids, wars and HQs. There just has to be things a PG can do that doesn't involve attacking another PG, I'm fine with HQ's being earned through wars but there's nothing for PGs that don't wish to be cutthroat. The way the rules look they expect all PGs to be cutthroat and that may make some nice PG ideas not worth it. Who'd want to be in a newbie PG since most newbies are working on their skills and wouldn't be good enough to win a raid or clan war against the elite PG (And there will be one, the guild that requires semi stream of 70 scores to get in.)

I think now is the time to look and say, what else would be good for PGs to do other than raid and war for an HQ. PGs shouldn't be purely some grand and epic tourney, they're also for Althanas members to have some society for their plot and to help each other out. The rules look like they more than just give the elite PG the advantage but only Elite PGs are the one able to get any use from the system at all.

[Massacre]

If you're going to say something is flawed or wrong, please share your ideas. Just saying it's a bad system isn't going to help it any.

[Reiko]

well maybe there could be prizes for PGs that do fun quests. It could be things that benifit the members. like having a PG that's very active in quests and use regions gain the trust of regional merchants for a discount for members shopping at the bazaar. I just want to see some rule for rewards a PG can get for being active in other ways than striving for an HQ.

Perhaps members of a PG could get special prizes for quests that would represent their clan, this is partially up to the PG to have such things but maybe there could be prizes for a PG that has a great clan quest that all members get. You know something a PG can earn that doesn't revolve around the cutthroat raids and clan wars. Also there should be prizes for clan wars that can't earn a HQ, like when the HQs are full and two non HQ owning PGs go to war.

[Serilliant]

I think there have been some great issues raised in this thread. These rules have been under great debate in the mod forums for a while. Believe me when I say that many of your worries were the same that I had upon first reading this proposal. I'll try to share some of my thoughts, as well.

Keep in mind that these new rules are not a complete revision of the old notions of PGs. Rather, we've added to some of the structuring. PGs can still be about having fun with a core group of role-players and questing together. In other words, the ultimate outcome does not have to be a HQ.

Also remember that Althanas is built around flexibility. If you can justify it IC, it happens. If, for example, the Red Hand wanted to create another IC shop, but did not want to utilize aggressive techniques to earn a HQ, they could opt to take one over by more covert means as was suggested higher up. They could also consider utilizing their vast wealth to sublet part of another PG's HQ, and perhaps also pay that PG to protect them in case of a raid. This still follows with the PG's philosophy, and also creates a symbiotic relationship between two guilds. In this way, cutthroat polices are not the only solution.

I want to reemphasize a point because I think it is vital: Althanas is all about what the players can imagine. We will throw out new rules and new variations every once in a while to spice things up, but it will always be your ability to play in the way that you find most fun.

I hope this has helped to sooth some nervousness over the PG additions. I am sure I speak for everyone involved with the creation of these rules when I say that we continue to welcome your concerns and your ideas for further revision. Any modification that you would like to see made, please feel free to suggest. We are still looking for ways to make this system even better.

Edit: Reiko- I love your idea for prizes for PGs. This system is already in place, however. Judges are always looking for creative ways that players justify their actions IC and will reward players for it. For example, if you run a thread in which you are meeting with a Corone diplomat, and justify such a meeting by recalling the time that your PG saved a major Corone city and thus carries some regional reputation, judges would be impressed with your reasoning and backstory and likely boost your score. Further, if you request spoils (such as a gift from the Corone diplomat in thanks), your IC justification would be strong enough to warrant the reward.

As of right now, there's no hard-coded reward system in place, but an active PG involved in shaping the story of Althanas would certainly be rewarded down the line as they begin to connect all of their stories together.

[The Architect]

So we could win things for our PG's through roleplaying and not just by purchasing improvements at the Shop? I saw in an old thread that someone earned a small mercenary force for the Grander's Order with a quest. Is that still allowed?

[Massacre]

Heavens yes it's allowed! I would encourage it.

[Sighter Tnailog]

Sorry to say it, but in the real world merchants often have to defend their goods using force against those who would take them.

The new rules do not favor PGs that fight. The new rules favor PGs with large, active memberships. And I, for one, will be open to anybody structuring a raid or a clan war in a creative way that does not involve fighting. But if the arguments I'm hearing -- and this is what I'm hearing -- are only based on some sort of nebulous elitism theory that is based in paranoia and stupidity or, alternatively, on people wanting to be able to get and hold PGs without having to maintain their activity, then I'm not inclined to listen to the concerns.

You will get out of this what you put into it, plain and simple. As for there being gold involved, well, sorry. Running an organization takes cash, and it's my belief that the PG with the greatest ability to make cash -- say, the RH -- will be uniquely benefited. But this time around, the little guy may just have a chance to take some of that cash from you should you get bloated in size and have a largely inactive membership.

EDIT: And Serilliant is right. This system won't ban things that have a decent IC justification and do not affect the fairness of the system. Despite the jeremiads coming from those who predict the end result will be elitist control of the system, it has been carefully crafted to insure that it will be very hard for a single group -- or even a collusion of groups -- to maintain universal control over it.

[Fenris]

well maybe there could be prizes for PGs that do fun quests. It could be things that benifit the members. like having a PG that's very active in quests and use regions gain the trust of regional merchants for a discount for members shopping at the bazaar. I just want to see some rule for rewards a PG can get for being active in other ways than striving for an HQ.

Perhaps members of a PG could get special prizes for quests that would represent their clan, this is partially up to the PG to have such things but maybe there could be prizes for a PG that has a great clan quest that all members get. You know something a PG can earn that doesn't revolve around the cutthroat raids and clan wars. Also there should be prizes for clan wars that can't earn a HQ, like when the HQs are full and two non HQ owning PGs go to war.

Yes. That would be awesome. I think, to use Serilliant's terminology, a "hard-coded" system for the above would be ideal, if only down the road. Until then, it could be as simple as a specific suggestion to moderators to grant extra bonuses to PG quests.

And on people's fears about cutthroat-PG-domination...I'm inclined to disagree. As people have said, "attacks" between PG's don't have to be literal IC "attacks." Therefore, PG's only have a "cutthroat" advantage if their members are very good writers. And if the only real way to give your PG a tactical "advantage" in terms of raid scores is to boost your writing talent...wouldn't it inspire more comeradery and mentoring between members as they try to better each other's scores? Or at least, in the good PG's it would.

I've had a PG plan in the works for a good while now, and I personally think the new rules will benefit it. Incidentally, it is not at all violence- or force-based.

So props, mod-folk! It might need some tweaking, but overall I think the new system is a good one.

[Death's Nephew]

Adventurer's Wall for PGs! Maybe have them compete for a prize! One target to kill, capture, or find, two possible locations. PG leaders decide which location to take, via an agreement or random choosing, and then the threads go underway. Whichever thread scored higher has the "real" target dead or in possession. Losing PG gets a consolation prize.

That would be neat.

Edit: Obviously a deadline would be needed, to make sure PGs that want to prize would get it. Kind of like a tourney, couple weeks or so to finish the thread.

[Massacre]

Adventurer's Wall for PGs! Maybe have them compete for a prize! One target to kill, capture, or find, two possible locations. PG leaders decide which location to take, via an agreement or random choosing, and then the threads go underway. Whichever thread scored higher has the "real" target dead or in possession. Losing PG gets a consolation prize.

That would be neat.

Edit: Obviously a deadline would be needed, to make sure PGs that want to prize would get it. Kind of like a tourney, couple weeks or so to finish the thread.

Good idea! It could be considered but it will have to be discussed and passed around. Any comments on this from anyone/everyone?

[thorn aldsmith]

that would be cool having your name on the prize wall!

[Sid]

I have several questions revolving around the IC aspects of the HQs. First, as they aren't yet actually located anywhere, is their location at the PG's choice? Secondly, when a HQ is won from another PG, does the winning PG move in and occupy the old PG's HQ or do they get the choice to make their own? Assuming they get the choice, what then would the reason be for the old PG no longer being able to occupy their HQ? After the first three HQs are set in locations, are they the only ones that can be used or will other PGs be able to also create their own HQs but with only three HQs counting in the OOC aspect, the rest simply being IC PG bases?

I have more questions, but I'll wait for these to be answered.

[Amaril Torrun]

This is directed to answering Sid. During the old days, every PG could have their HQs, but then three PGs had official OOC HQ threads. So if your PG owns a HQ and then loses a war, it still keeps their HQ IC, while the victor puts their own HQ into the OOC thread slot.

Personally, I think the new rules are a step in the right direction. It is hard to complain about them when our PG system was pretty much dead up until this point.

[Saxon]

Sorry to say it, but in the real world merchants often have to defend their goods using force against those who would take them.

The new rules do not favor PGs that fight. The new rules favor PGs with large, active memberships. And I, for one, will be open to anybody structuring a raid or a clan war in a creative way that does not involve fighting.

I would like to point out, Sighter, that some of these rules seem to be very, very broad, and I would think that PGs that cannot fight well will be able to adapt in some other way. I'm sure there will be a group that uses false treasuries, or a lot of misdirection of that nature. The idea that every power group has 100% accurate intelligence on their opponent for a raid or a war is just silly. There is such a thing as counter-intelligence, and I'd expect that those like the Red Hand and other non-militarized power groups would use it to the best of their advantage to throw off their attackers. Guerilla Warfare is still one of the most successful military tactics next to nuking a country. :rolleyes:

Also, I'd like to know if the option of counterfeiting money and using it strategically in a war or raid is allowed within certain parameters is legit? Or if you can even pass it off as real money to a rather dumb merchant. I'd die laughing if I had to fight a certain outlaw's group and one of my group's vaults was covered wall to wall in fake money. Haha.. the classics. ;)

I would think we have gotten past this elitism thing, everybody. Just because there is someone on your squad or the opponent's that is monumentally overpowered, doesn't mean they are invincible. If it does, that means the RoG hasn't done their job and they need to look at that character quickly. These wars, also, seem to be consenstual in my opinion. So if someone's PG cannot hammer out some sort of agreement in a peace talk, or get a NPC region to back you in a U.S. sort've fashion, your probably going to have to find some tactician to consult with your present problem. However, I would assume that these wars take IC months to beginning and end, which means there should be many little quests before hand so that the opposing group can acertain your funds and HQ legitimately. Meaning that the defenders should see or at least hear about something on the horizon and be formulating a plan of some sort. Powergaming has always been looked down upon, and I would expect the people in charge of Powergroups to have some fail safes in place if such a thing were to happen. If it troubles you further, ally yourself with another more financially influenced powergroup or region and embargo the opponent's ass. If they can't get the money to fight, theres very little chance that a Power Group would be able to muscle down two flanking defenders without resorting to powergaming techniques.

AND IF ALL ELSE FAILS: Tough luck. You probably weren't meant to command or be apart that certain PG anyway, and might do yourself some good by converting to the people who conquered you. *shrugs*

And for the record:

All your base are belong to us. :D

[Mithranduil Treasury]

As the secretary for the Order of Dratmos, I have a few questions concerning finances.

1. When (and if) we re-register, will our gold drop back even if we already have some?

2. How do I find out the current balance?

3. Do we have to use the treasury forum only or can we have funds put into a separate account? (example: this account that I'm posting with was orginially created in order to keep PG funds separate from character account funds)

Just a note to give a better idea of who this is: Secretary Extrordinaire is an NPC character, run by me, Chelle. My most known PC name is Jasmine.

[Max Dirks]

Gold from previous PGs will be disbursed as directed by the former clan leader (or someone acting on the clans behalf). That GP can be put back into a new treasury when the PG is re-registered. The ledger takes the place of the treasury accounts.

Sid, HQ is more of an OOC title than an IC one. Each clan, as someone mentioned, has a base of operations. The HQs just entitle its holders to extra benefits around the forum. Since one of those benefits is a larger base (if desired), we ask that you discuss its location with a regions administrator before the PG is set up. Also to address your other question, when Malice defeated the Gray Braves in Althanas' last clan war, we destroyed the tower for story purposes. You can do what you'd like. Continuity isn't as important as you guys having fun.

It will be very fun. There are plenty of opportunities for espionage and the like. Who knows where who's allegiances truly lie? ;)

[Mithranduil Treasury]

so then this account is pointless? personally, I'd rather have a separate account than a general ledger that everyone can see. If it's really all that necessary, I'd be fine with PMing a PG mod a monthly report or whatever. I just don't like that everyone can see how much we're putting in or taking out and what we're buying.

You also didn't answer whether or not having our money in a separate account was viable option or how I find out a current balance, since I don't expect the ledger to be updated every single day. That would be a great deal of work to make sure it's up to the minute everyday.

[Corvus MacCallum]

The thing that bothers me is that the 500 limit is a requirement, even if a PG has nothing to do with gaining or collecting cash nor has the acquirement of riches or contributions by the members set as any of its goals.

[Death's Nephew]

Well, any organization needs currency to acomplish anything on their agenda. I think 500g is a pretty reasonable amount to ask for as a minimum. And you have 2 months to collect that money after PG registration. Do a PG quest to get the extra 450g.

Not hard at all.

[Amaril Torrun]

Not to mention that you have an entire group of people to help pitch in for that 500 gold. Smaller PGs normally have roughly 10-20 people in it, right? If everyone in a PG of ten people donated 50 gold, then you'd have what you needed. A leader could simply have a deposit fee as part of the recruitment of new members. 500 gold isn't that much when you consider the type of organization you are trying to build.

[Death's Nephew]

Besides, do you think all those meetings with punch and pie pay for themselves?

[Cyrus the virus]

I think the rules are awesome. If, after Audeamus participates in raids and a war, I see issues, I may air them then. Until that point in time, anything I say would just be me guessing at issues that as of now do not exist.

So let's just have fun :)

[Lighthawk76]

In truth, the major problem I've seen is that most may be seeing the rules as "this is what a PG is/does." I personally saw it as "here are the basic rules for a PG, with rules for fighting." Clan wars and raids are things that PGs are naturally going to want to do. Now there will be some that decide that warring and raiding are not the ways to go, but for the most part, warring and raiding will be the bread and butter for a lot of PGs.

With this in mind, rules had to be made. Can one imagine what would have happened if rules for raids and wars hadn't been made. We would have had much more of a problem. We would have had clans declaring wars and raids with another clan that wasn't active which would either have led to the attacker saying they win by default or else just a loss of interest by all.

In truth, the mods have appeared to give us a lot of lee way in terms of what to do with PGs. While we only have rules for battles, that doesn't mean we can't do anything else.

People have brought of PG quests. Why do we need rules for those? We're more than imaginative enough to think up rewards and goals that a PG can earn. Status in a region to help those in the PG. Land to build bases, temples, barracks, or even the start of our own PG based city. Our own personal platoon of Haidian demons, Raieran archers, or Gurkha kukri-wielders. Magical defenses for our bases that summon elementals to defend us against raiders. Some of these may be too powerul, but I mean the list is endless. For a PG that puts together a highscoring PG quest, and is willing to part with a sum of their gold, I'm pretty sure the mods would allows you to contract the long lost race of planer-empowered shadow dwarves you uncovered to create a portal to the dark plane from where you can summon shadows as personal servants and bodyguards to your base.

Let's just say, I'm excited.

I only have a question about the forced finish declaration. I don't understand this. Is there an option for more than one round of warring? If so, is this basically the defender saying that "win or lose, this is the deciding battle?" Seems a little unfair. If this is a "battle" in a war, then maybe it's not the decision maker. Certain battles of Great Wars were lost by the side that in the end won. Why does the defender get this decision? Or am I missing something?

[Massacre]

The last battle in a series will always determine the outcome. That number is up to the defender because:

A) Activity might not be so hot in their PG at the current moment and you can't control when people want to raid.
B) Want to 'warm up' against their opponents.

If PGs would like to have the leaders negotiate, that's fine.

[Rith]

I like it a lot. Though the rules are a tad confusing to me (considering I merely quickly read them) but the power to do what you want is endless. I'm glad there are rules for battles, considering it would be chaos without them and nothing would necessairly be 'official', when it came down to it. But, with the rules, things should flow smoothly. I just can't want to get into a PG quest :D

[Jasmine]

so then this account is pointless? personally, I'd rather have a separate account than a general ledger that everyone can see. If it's really all that necessary, I'd be fine with PMing a PG mod a monthly report or whatever. I just don't like that everyone can see how much we're putting in or taking out and what we're buying.

You also didn't answer whether or not having our money in a separate account was viable option or how I find out a current balance, since I don't expect the ledger to be updated every single day. That would be a great deal of work to make sure it's up to the minute everyday.

I think I got accidentally skipped, can I get a few more answers, please? ^_^

[Cyrus the virus]

Just to try and clarify the flexibility a bit, Emma and I are doing a quest where we hope to gain a vessel for the Audeamus. We didn't ask permission or post a thread about it because it's fairly obvious that a large boat could be obtained as a spoil if we work for it.

[Poison]

*too lazy to change accounts*

Dirks got with me on AIM, so my last post as Jasmine can be ignored as he answered all my questions ^__^