Just a thought...

[Autumn]

... but lets discuss it anyways.

I'm certain that at some point this has been brought up before, but if it has, I wasn't around for it. Let me just preface this by saying I don't want anyone posting something like "We've talked about this before and everyone agreed so it's no use talking about it shut up the end." This is just a discussion to bounce ideas around.

Althanas is an excellent fantasy world, but it lacks one thing: an accepted system of magic.

If you look at all the great fantasy series out there, there is always a method to their magic. In LOTR, you've got the wizards who use their... magic stuff (I don't know that much about LOTR). In the Wheel of Time they have the True Source which only specific men and women can tap into. In Dragonlance theres the Mages who (I think) are chosen by the Gods, and the Draconians who meditate and receive spells from their deity. In Star Wards, you've got the Force, and those with superior... midichlorians(sp) can control it.

There is no need to correct my ridiculous attempts at summarizing these systems.

I think if a bunch of us seriously put our heads together, we could come up with something solid.

I know a lot of people will oppose this idea, and I can predict what some of the first arguments will be, but I'd rather address them as they come. So everyone let me know what you think!

[Rayse Valentino]

Well, Althanas is really freeform so even if you set up a solid model for magic, whether or not people use it will still be entirely up to them. You can advocate it, but people will still do their own thing regardless. I think many people borrow stuff from that "True Source" thing you mentioned, given Althanas's world history.

It's not a matter of opposition, it's a matter of effectiveness. Remember that there are countless abilities that aren't even classified as 'magic', I think most magic-inclined Althanas are born with the power or learn it through some generic means.

I was actually thinking of "developing" some magical abilities for Rayse, although entirely by accident and probably unexplained from the mechanical point of view.

[Max Dirks]

Note: this is just a fun tidbit of information, not an attempt to downplay the potential discussion.

There was, in fact, a very long discussion held by the moderators about creating a universal magic system. Ultimately, it was decided that a universal magic system was not practical for Althanas. The discussion was abandoned, but not forgotten. If you look carefully at the history of Althanas and the rules of some of the individual regions, you can find remnants of the universal magic system embedded into Althanas' lore.

Just run a search for the "Tap."

[Sighter Tnailog]

Max is sort of right on this, but also misses something. The idea was bounced around the moderator staff for a long time, but the idea itself predates the "universal magic system" that Max is talking about. The idea and philosophy of magic has always been an issue on Althanas, and the "Tap" is the oldest cogent expression of that philosophy, but the "universal magic system" was a way of implementing that philosophy in practice. We decided -- and wisely, I believe -- that it is better to have a general philosophy of magic rather than enforcing any hard and fast rules of magical practice.

The regions of Althanas that are the oldest and share similar geographic commonalities -- Corone, Raiaera, Salvar, and Alerar -- all have, in some way or another, unifying stories which all involve the existence of a magical force called the Eternal Tap. This magical field was once universal in the sense you describe, but was shattered during the Wars of the Tap and has become unwieldy as a force. For an extended discussion of the subject, I would refer you to an earlier podcast in which the issue was discussed significantly and the resulting forum discussion was edifying.

http://www.althanas.com/world/showthread.php?t=1581

With that said, I think a discussion of our magic philosophies is always in order. I am willing to give a defense of the Tap's value for Althanas anytime, anyplace, if anyone is willing to hear it.

[Mathias]

The way I've described my Planesmagic is a way I've started to implement magic in any setting that I use or create. I borrowed quite a bit from "American Gods," by Neil Gaiman, where all the Gods of classic and modern mythology are real, but they are only as powerful and prominent as the faith in them is.

So, the idea as it is, or atleast was, in my head, was that my character's imagination, and firm belief and desire in transcending his physical essence, allowed him to walk across existance, and therefore, 'planeswalk.'

Your magic would only be as strong, or as real and definitive, as your character's belief in it.

[Kovalai]

I personally am not against a universal magic system, though I'm not for it either. If you're going to have a system like that, it has to be more of a concept than anything else. As soon as you define what can be done with magic practically half of the awesome things about freeform RPing can get shot to hell.

They won't necessarily though, of course, but you know what I mean. If you look at WoT, there's the One Source (the true source is different, s'what the devil uses), and yeah, everyone taps into it for their magic, and there is the 5 different threads and the weaving, etc. But, nowhere does he define what can be done with it, just as all the different groups of women who use the Source in different ways in WoT.

It's true though, absolutely, that you won't find a fantasy author or world or whatever, without some kind of consistent system of magic. But it's a lot easier to deal with like that when it's just one story, written by one person. If Althanas wanted a universal magic system, it wouldn't really be able to do much more than define where the magic comes from. Any more and you would restrict people too much, I think, which isn't the goal of the world.

There are a lot of important questions to ask yourself when you're designing a magic system. For example, is magic drawn from an internal or external force? If it's external (like the Source), then you're pulling magic to you, and working it that way. If it's internal, the wizard is the source of their own magic, like in The Book of Words. You can get similar results from both, but it can be an important distinction once you start to define other rules for your magic.

What's the 'magical density' of your world? This can be a hard question when you're writing a novel on your own, made more difficult by the collaborative setting here. For example, in Tolkien's world magic itself is very, very rare (in fact, there are 8 wizards in the whole world), but the world is inherently magical, people just don't go around slinging spells. In WoT, you have to be a special individual to have magic, but it isn't really all that uncommon, esspecially as you get further into the series. In Song of Ice and Fire, there's almost [i]no magic it all, except minor things that get hinted at.

So what's the magic density in Althanas? It's impossible to say, because depending on the story, the plot, the author, the other authors, it could be totally different from every other story, and to do otherwise might restrict the people who are trying to create a story into a system that doesn't work for them.

Another question is whether magic is freeform or predefined, but we already covered that because you can't really have predefined magic in a pbp forum. But, attached to that, is it 'these x elements exist, and you do magic with them, or say, there's these specific schools of magic that you use to do whatever. Doesn't necessarily say what you can do, but what realm you do it in.

How do you perform magic? Sort of gut instinct or fine manipulation? Because of the freeform nature of Althanas, it seems like you'd need to be able to do both, or either. One person has a character concept who uses magic innately, while another will be very structured. Or some mix of the two.

What kind of backlash does magic have on the wielder? Can you just do what you want, or does it punish? This one is a lot easier to deal with than some of the others, and could be implemented pretty well, because of characters requiring balance. But sometimes still, people will want effects to have a certain time limit, or strength, or side effect, whatever. Pretty do-able though.

What's the degree of change that can be accomplished through magic? What does it make possible? Somewhere between the last one and the others, balance and level issues defines how powerful magic can be, but still, a good magic system in a novel has some kind of restrictions on it's abilities. Maybe it's impossible to create something from nothing, maybe it's not possible to do something that you can't see. Every fantasy magic system has something like that, but it's tough to handle in freeform.

My point here is that I think internally consistent, interesting magic systems can be really, really awesome, and add a lot to a story, but it's hard to implement without restricting the players, which can be no fun, and hard to control.

Now, if you want me to start talking about specific magic systems instead of the general idea of them, I've got about four or so waiting in the wings. ~Cackle~

*Note: Sorry for kind of exploding into the thread, I've thought about this topic more than one person probably should <.< >.>*

[Rayse Valentino]

Since we have all sorts of opinions here, how should you suggest learning magic for a non-magically inclined person? I want to try one of those methods, as I find the learning process infinitely more entertaining than the end product. I know there are schools for certain things but I'm talking about non-school methods.

First idea is to have it be an innate ability that my character "discovers". Tiny amounts at first, and slowly builds up with practice.

Second idea is to have magical ink and a tattoo shape, which imbues the recipient with magic. A pretty common idea but it does the job right and it's a decent explanation.

[Earthwalker]

I've actually been toying around with the idea of learning magic too - though the method I intended to do was to look around for someone who was magical, and then run a RP where they taught Leander what they knew, under the assumption that magic is not innate, but learned. The fun of it, I figure, would be that whomever taught Leander magic would have a large hand in how Leander practiced magic in the future, which, in my opinion, makes for interesting character development.

As for your statements on a universal system of magic, Kovalai, you and I have had that discussion before, methinks. I have to say that now, as then I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment.

The two of us were once in a similar World Building type RP thing, where there was a brief attempt to lay down the law on how magic worked. Everyone talked for a little bit, and then the idea was abandoned - and, in my belief, that's how it should be. I agree that deciding on some source is fine - so long as even then, you don't disallow deviation from that system. There can be a prevailing way, but it shouldn't, in a free form setting, be a universal way.

[Breaker]

Actually, I think having a universal source for magic on Althanas would be enough. The one thing that really bugs me about magic is how many PCs can conjure fireballs etc. from thin air without any explanation, or apparent understanding as to how they did it.

To me, conjuring and throwing a fireball without knowing HOW you're performing either part of the task would be akin to disarming a time-bomb blindfolded with a monkey wrench. If you have no concept of where the fire comes from or how you control it, how can you be sure you won't just ignite your entire body?

My character doesn't use any magic, but has several superhuman abilities, most prominently physical strength and acute senses. The thing is, I can explain how he developped these abilities, even if the explanations aren't feasible in an earthly sense. IMHO people who want their characters to wield magic should be willing to defend the source of those powers.

[Kovalai]

That's a valid point, but there should be a distinction made between a character who can't explain the source of their powers, and a player who can't explain the source of their character's powers. If the player designs a character who doesn't understand their powers for a specific reason, that's ok. On the other hand, if a player has no idea how their character does whatever it is they do, that's definitely inexcusable.

[Leaf on the Wind]

That's a valid point, but there should be a distinction made between a character who can't explain the source of their powers, and a player who can't explain the source of their character's powers. If the player designs a character who doesn't understand their powers for a specific reason, that's ok. On the other hand, if a player has no idea how their character does whatever it is they do, that's definitely inexcusable.

Admittedly, I'm new here, but isn't the whole point of magic that, to some extent, it's unexplainable? D: You don't necessarily need to know how a bullet works to fire a gun, if that comparison makes any sense.

Heck, not knowing at the time of creation just leaves room for future Plot Development if you ever decide to come up with a way to explain things.

[Saxon]

To tell you the truth, I think some things are better left unexplained. Such things as magic, or genres like horror, mystery, etc often leave more of an impression when less is understood. I'll give you an example, one of the cult favorites in television were the X-Files, and the entire concept behind it was that every case that they had researched and pursued was marked unsolved because they didn't have enough evidence to solidify their findings. Such files were marked 'X'. Now, being an avid viewer of the series, I often felt myself hungering for more and tantalized at the same time at the stories they came up with, and they never quite explained everything, allowing you room to fill in the gaps yourself. I think that practice alone is often under appreciated for how effective it can be in storytelling. Fear is an excellent motivator, and ignorance of what is beyond the next corner often takes the reader a mile further then you would have if you had written out your entire philosophy to magic in one neat paragraph.

When you think about it, what impresses a reader more with your work? Your ability to construct the ideas surrounding the plot or the way you go about it? I understand that there is a need for commonality some times to avoid confusion, but we shouldn't establish it for everything. For those reasons I'm wholly against the Tap, and I will personally make sure that my work is left out of the loop with such things. Now, that's not to say that I might not base a story or two around it, but my concept of such things are radically different from the common view that maybe the staff has, and I don't feel comfortable coupling Saxon's powers over darkness with their views and take the 'oo' and 'ah' out of what he does.

I suppose it'd make a fine guard rail for people who were stuck on ideas of their own, but other then that, it should be kept simply that. A guideline. I'd rather read from some of you folks the shock factor you implement with your spells in how you go about casting them and the impact they have, rather then learning the mechanics of how you pulled it out of thin air. Seems more impressive, at least to me. :rolleyes:

[Breaker]

That's actually the point I was making, I just failed to specify. While Josh has theories on why he can increase his strength and senses, he's only certain of how to access them. Despite this, I have it figured out and he'll be learning at a later date.

What I meant is that around 90% of the magic users on Althanas will just have their profile say that their character can (using the same example as before) create and manipulate fire, without explaining how or why.


Admittedly, I'm new here, but isn't the whole point of magic that, to some extent, it's unexplainable? D: You don't necessarily need to know how a bullet works to fire a gun, if that comparison makes any sense.

Actually, you need to know a lot of things. You need to know which end of the bullet is the back, and which is the front. You need to know where and how you put it into the gun. You need to know how to get the bullet into the chamber, how to remove the safety (if there is one) and you need to know that pulling the trigger fires the gun. Also, you need to know which part of the gun to point at your enemy, or else you might shoot yourself in the foot. This may seem excessively detailed, but it's not.

I've never handled an actual functioning handgun, such as (for example) the Berretta M9. I've read about them and seen them used in movies many times though. Despite that, if given a box of shells and a disassembeled M9, it would probably take me awhile to get the thing working properly.

[Atzar]

There are lots of different brands of guns, though. Your handgun works differently when compared to a musket, which in turn works different than a high-powered rifle.

This is why I'm content with leaving the magic system as vague as it is right now. Unless you want to detail the ins and outs of the usage of every 'gun' on the site, you're going to have people moving into uncharted territory with new brands of magic - if only to be unique. I think we might as well all be unique. Let everybody do whatever they think best.

[Earthwalker]

As I understand it, (and feel free to contradict me, [lots of numbers for name]), what he's saying is not that we should define each gun, but that each individual should be confident and sure of how their own guns work - and that that knowledge should be reflected in their character. So you and he believe the same thing in terms of unique magics - he's just saying that the magics should be something that each player is sure about in terms of how it effects their own character.

[Sighter Tnailog]

I would say that everything everyone is saying regarding magic -- that it needs to be kept vague, that it requires characters to know what they are doing/writers to understand the modus operandi, that it should allow for infinite variation among different players, is WHY I support the idea of the Eternal Tap.

Indeed, the day the Tap was "invented" was a day that LordLeopold and I were talking to one another about all the different ways people use magic on Althanas, and if there might be a way to unify them without A) limiting what they could do with magic or B) stepping on anyone's toes with regard to their own pre-existing magic system.

Our idea was that at some primal, far-off point in the Althanas past, all magic was in some sense "one source." The Tap was all part of itself, and those who wielded magic wielded it alone -- to use any part of it was to use the entire thing. Since the shattering of the Tap in a cataclysmic battle, magicians have still been able to plumb the primal depths of it...but now, instead of touching all parts of it when they touch one part of it, they only touch that single part.

And thus every single type of magic a character decides to use is part of the Tap. But the Tap was so incredibly huge that to even speak of limiting what it can do or what those who touch its myriad shattered facets can do with it or how their use of it works is silly. The Tap is beyond thought, in a sense, as it transcends the very nature of our magical systems. It provides us with a backdrop theory of universal magic, while still permitting unlimited variations on the theme.

Now, there have been discussions on whether people like the name "The Eternal Tap." To be honest, I've grown fond of it. But some people have suggested myriad things for it...and that's good! Characters, peoples, races, cultures...all of them would have developed different names for this primal reality-beyond-reality that undergirds all "magic," and so having different names for it seems perfectly acceptable. My guess is that "The Eternal Tap" is merely the English representation of the common tongue's phrase for this powerful magic source.

[Caden Law]

Actually, you need to know a lot of things. You need to know which end of the bullet is the back, and which is the front. You need to know where and how you put it into the gun. You need to know how to get the bullet into the chamber, how to remove the safety (if there is one) and you need to know that pulling the trigger fires the gun. Also, you need to know which part of the gun to point at your enemy, or else you might shoot yourself in the foot. This may seem excessively detailed, but it's not.

I've never handled an actual functioning handgun, such as (for example) the Berretta M9. I've read about them and seen them used in movies many times though. Despite that, if given a box of shells and a disassembeled M9, it would probably take me awhile to get the thing working properly.
...I hate beating a dead horse, but the Semantics/Details Nazi in me won't let it lie. To clarify my point: If someone knows how the character works, then the workings of the bullet (the general magic or specific spell in question) don't matter. The character is what's important.

Make more sense now? o_o

[Sighter Tnailog]

I think a better way of saying it is this.

If you know that a gun needs to be pointed in one way and the trigger depressed, you can fire it. I can fire a gun. I may not be able to hit my target, but I know enough about guns to know that the bullet comes out one end and the trigger has something to do with the firing. I've heard that kickback is a lot harder than you expect, too, so I'd be trying to account for that -- but it would probably be harder than I expected, so I wouldn't doubt that after firing I'd be lying flat on my ass.

But in order to do what I've described, I do not have to understand how gunpowder works. I don't need to know how to plot the trajectory of the bullet on a Cartesian plane. I don't need to understand that the bullet will stop moving eventually due to friction. I don't need to understand gravity. All those things will happen whether or not I can give an academic lecture on the subject.

So in short, your character does need to know SOME things about magic, but that could be as simple as knowing that lifting your hands like this and saying these words will produce a strange effect if done precisely and accurately. Whether a character knows the deeper mechanics of what is actually being achieved within the fabric of reality is besides the point. Some characters may know better than others; some might be powerful, subtle wizards with a deep grasp on what it is they are doing, and some might be neonates with a spellbook lighting candles in the dark. You need to know some things, but total comprehension of magical totality is not required.

[Seth_Rahl]

I would say that everything everyone is saying regarding magic -- that it needs to be kept vague, that it requires characters to know what they are doing/writers to understand the modus operandi, that it should allow for infinite variation among different players, is WHY I support the idea of the Eternal Tap.

Indeed, the day the Tap was "invented" was a day that LordLeopold and I were talking to one another about all the different ways people use magic on Althanas, and if there might be a way to unify them without A) limiting what they could do with magic or B) stepping on anyone's toes with regard to their own pre-existing magic system.

Our idea was that at some primal, far-off point in the Althanas past, all magic was in some sense "one source." The Tap was all part of itself, and those who wielded magic wielded it alone -- to use any part of it was to use the entire thing. Since the shattering of the Tap in a cataclysmic battle, magicians have still been able to plumb the primal depths of it...but now, instead of touching all parts of it when they touch one part of it, they only touch that single part.

And thus every single type of magic a character decides to use is part of the Tap. But the Tap was so incredibly huge that to even speak of limiting what it can do or what those who touch its myriad shattered facets can do with it or how their use of it works is silly. The Tap is beyond thought, in a sense, as it transcends the very nature of our magical systems. It provides us with a backdrop theory of universal magic, while still permitting unlimited variations on the theme.

Now, there have been discussions on whether people like the name "The Eternal Tap." To be honest, I've grown fond of it. But some people have suggested myriad things for it...and that's good! Characters, peoples, races, cultures...all of them would have developed different names for this primal reality-beyond-reality that undergirds all "magic," and so having different names for it seems perfectly acceptable. My guess is that "The Eternal Tap" is merely the English representation of the common tongue's phrase for this powerful magic source.

Oh my god I think my brain just flipped inside out. I support this. Fully. Jesus Sighter you are a creative genius.

[Sighter Tnailog]

Is this sarcasm I detect?

[Slayer of the Rot]

Is this sarcasm I detect?

I think he's just trying to fit your whole dick into his mouth.

Personally, I support the use of the Tap, and admit liking the name, "The Eternal Tap". At the moment, I'm working on creating my first actual mage character (not counting my poor Quall, the lost necromancer) who uses a tiny fraction of the Tap for his magic.

[Anila]

So in short, your character does need to know SOME things about magic...

I'd like to take a moment here and clarify that not all magic is the same. You don't need to have your character's basic understanding of magic be the same as everyone else's mage, and whatever source and method of magic you choose, it's almost always valid.

[Zook Murnig]

However, it must also be said that one should keep the power of the magic in line with the power of others' magic. I spent some time looking over other characters' abilities before I settled on Caduceus' level-0 magical power.

[Lucien]

I think he's just trying to fit your whole dick into his mouth. I can tell you all from experience that it is quite a difficult feat.

I really have to agree with consensus for the most part. If you know fire shoots from your anus when you name the members of the Beatles, you really don't have to know why, to use it.

Use the tap unless you have a non-Althanas related magic source, or some internal magic source which you can explain a bit on. Otherwise, we all come back to the tap.

[Atzar]

So we've reached the conclusion that the Eternal Tap is the source of all magic on Althanas, regardless of whether a character is aware of what he is using. That's fine.

I'll be honest with you though. How many magic-based characters on Althanas today know what the Tap is? Not many. Moreover, how many would care to find out? A few more, but still not many.

While this is nice just-so-you-know background information, it really won't change much. I think that may be why this was never a thoroughly-crafted idea in the past. Regardless of what we decide, it's merely an aesthetic detail. Nothing really changes.

[Kovalai]

In response to Caden Law's, and more so to Sighter's, I have to say you're exactly right. But, you're aren't disagreeing with my original point, Sighter in particular just rephrased it. AS you say, if you know that much, which end of a gun is which, you're good to go, for better or whose. But, in this example, as you said in the example, you're the character. Quoting myself really, I don't believe at all that the character needs to know how they do whatever it is they do. Hell, my characters almost never do, and it often makes for very interesting writing.

But, who made the gun? Whoever designed the gun sure as hell better know how gunpowder works, how the bullet will fly, and what it'll do when it hits whatever it's going toward, etc. Now, they might not just know this off hand, but they think about it, they talk to some people, they test it, and they make a gun that works.

The writer is the designer. My argument was that regardless of what the character knows, the writer will always, always benefit from knowing what the hell is going on. I think a lot of writers sometimes forget that a big part of making up fantasy stuff is what you do behind the scenes.

[Zook Murnig]

Since the Eternal Tap, a part of Althanas from long before my time, has been brought up, I figure it's safe to ask a question that's kept me from writing in Salvar for a long time. What the hell is the Church of the Ethereal Sway? What is their doctrine? I could never find any official information on the Church, other than that it's a Church. In Salvar. And that it sometimes is at odds with the government in Salvar.

[Ashiakin]

There is information on the Church posted in the Questions and Information sub-forum in Salvar. I'm not a fan of ultra-detailed region information because I think it's contrary to what Althanas is about. If there's a specific question you have about the Church that you feel would be relevant to a thread you can do, I can answer it. I just don't want people to think they have to read tons of info to RP in Salvar, because that's not necessary at all. I'd rather people write their own stories than fan fiction about my region info. If you get a minor detail "wrong," I'm honestly not going to care if you have a good story. I mean, saying Salvar is an arid wasteland is an unacceptable error, but getting the title of a regional official wrong is fine.

Here's an overview of the Church, as it appears in the info:

The Church of the Ethereal Sway is the only church that is legally allowed to operate within Salvar’s borders. It dominates most aspects of Salvic government and daily life. Every fiefdom in Salvar is required to have a Church on its ground, as much to provide religious services as it is for the monarchy and the Church hierarchy to be able to keep a watchful eye on the activities of the local governments.

The religion itself is centered on the worship of spirit-beings known as the Ethereal Sway, who were said to have traveled to Salvar from another world and guided its leader so as to lead the nation to greatness. After leading Salvar to a golden age, the Sway vanished and no one has had contact with them for a thousand years. The Church was created to bring the Sway back to Salvar by ensuring that the government enacts the proper laws and that citizens follow the correct practices in their daily lives.

This has lead to a church that is authoritarian and invasive. Its legal powers allow it to detain, torture, and execute those they feel are preventing Salvar from attaining its religious goals. While the Church has objectives of its own, the King is allowed to appoint the Church’s leader, the Justice, and so maintains a strong hand on it.

[Sighter Tnailog]

So we've reached the conclusion that the Eternal Tap is the source of all magic on Althanas, regardless of whether a character is aware of what he is using. That's fine.

I'll be honest with you though. How many magic-based characters on Althanas today know what the Tap is? Not many. Moreover, how many would care to find out? A few more, but still not many.

While this is nice just-so-you-know background information, it really won't change much. I think that may be why this was never a thoroughly-crafted idea in the past. Regardless of what we decide, it's merely an aesthetic detail. Nothing really changes.

This is a good point.

The Tap is an idea we use moreso as PLAYERS when trying to determine the broad framework of what we write. Characters are not bound to understand it or even know it's what they are using -- for one thing, the days of the Tap being bound together are so long ago that it almost makes sense for fewer people to know about it today. Findelfin only knows about it IC because he's an avid bookworm and has had more run-ins with ancient Tap warriors than most.