Gold and Commissions?

[Mathias]

I recall that for artists of any skill, drawing character commissions was a pretty hot industry. You could rake in Gold hand over fist by completing something like two or three a week.

In Max Dirks' recruitment drive thread, Cyrus had said that gold wasn't allowed to be given through OOC circumstances anymore, and I wondered if it applied to art requests as well.

[Slayer of the Rot]

It does. Too many people getting ridiculously rich without ever having to finish an IC thread.

[Reiko]

yeah, Art requests was one of the reasons it was no longer allowed to transfer money OOC.

[Lucien]

yeah, Art requests was one of the reasons it was no longer allowed to transfer money OOC.

Let me just fix that for you.


yeah, Art requests was THE MAIN FUCKING, NEARLY RIDICULOUS reason it was no longer allowed to transfer money OOC.

There, now it better explains the gravity of it. We just beg for art now.

[Sighter Tnailog]

Seriously, how much gold did anyone ever get for commissions?

Honestly, it provided a use for gold, and I defy you to find someone that really raked in cash hand over foot from it. The amount of gold people made on that paled in comparison to half of what the Red Hand brought in on a regular basis.

Hell. If you want an IC reason, make commission threads in-character. Have one character go to another and request a portrait. But that seems like a real waste of time to me.

I, for one, think we should let players pay one another with GP for a nice drawing or two. Heaven knows that at least it gives those players without drawing skills or a stalker-ish fan out there a chance to actually see their character for the first time.

[Mathias]

I'm with Sighter. Especially since I remember the days when the Red Hand Exchange was THE dominating source of transactions. I forgot how and why, but NOBODY went to the Bazaar, and the merchants made an insane percentage of the money.

Serilliant was one, I remember, and he's got something like, 80k, right?

WHAT could he possibly spend his money on? Seriously, he's like Bill Gates. No matter how much shit he buys, he will never get rid of that money.

I'm of the opinion if you've got a skill, it should be able to correlate with the IC world.

I mean, art is only stereotypically what I think of when I say that. But, then again, nobody asks for poems to be composed about their characters, although its a similar, and suitable service that could/should be offered.

Y'know what I'm sayin?

[Doomsday]

Seriously, how much gold did anyone ever get for commissions?


This is Reiko

more than they knew what to do with.

But seriously I think that it was actually fair for the artists to get gold. The Artists worked very hard to get the money and it was fair that they got paid. I think after the Red Hand Exchange Outpost ruined the GP system that it kinda got axed.

Although Forbidden Nine Tails made enough on Art to out fit his character in Vlince (Before Sifan was considered better) and an entire armory of Prevalida weapons.

still he did work for that GP.

[Slayer of the Rot]

Serilliant was one, I remember, and he's got something like, 80k, right?

WHAT could he possibly spend his money on? Seriously, he's like Bill Gates. No matter how much shit he buys, he will never get rid of that money.

Yes, yes, and he still has my motherfucking shotgun. But I'll have it back, you know, one of these days, I'll get that 140k. Even if I have to kill and rob the corpses of everyone on the site to get it.

DISCLAIMER: This a joke kind of.

[Serilliant]

Serilliant was one, I remember, and he's got something like, 80k, right?

86k. And that's just in cash. You should see my armory.

In seriousness, though, gold reward for OOC activity was nixed at around the time we cracked down heavily on metagaming. Keep in mind that the essence of roleplaying is that your character is a discrete entity. I am in favor of there being some sort of OOC resource that can be traded for OOC commodities, but I do not believe that gold pieces should be that resource.

And the Red Hand certainly did not "ruin" the GP system. The Exchange Outpost itself neither created nor destroyed wealth; it just centralized it. Every piece gold Serilliant has and every piece of equipment he owns came lovingly from the Red Hand's patrons.

[Sorahn]

Ithermoss had over 250k. Beat that suckas.

Btw the Red Hand Exchange Outpost was the dominated place to buy stuff because the Red Hand blockaded the bazaar in the bazaar war and drove their prices up. I'm proud to say I helped do that.

It made a lot more sense to me to have actual merchants be PCs because then the money would remain in circulation more like a real currency rather than being lost to oblivion when you buy things in a bazaar thread.

Anyways, am I the only oldbie that remembers the system we had in place a long time ago where you could buy custom user titles, and glowy names, and user titles for other people, and other random OOC stuff like that? Wasn't all that done with GP? I assume this is the reason that disappeared but I thought it was fun. I definitely changed Koran's user title to "Sorahn is my idol" and he kept it until the titles went away. lol

But as far as art, it would be just as easy to say your character was good at drawing and have an IC transaction, but I'm with Sighter in that I don't really see the point of that.

But to satisfy the nay-sayers, what if we had some sort of OOC currency as well as GP? I don't know how you'd earn it or whatever but then at least we could bring back that cool little shop thing for titles and glow names and stupid stuff.

I dunno... I'm just throwing stuff out there. I don't really mind either way.

[Lucien]

Uh...we did. There were points awarded for post count and thread starting. That's how we purchased names, titles, glowing shit. It went away a few months after I started, but I had fun with it.

It wasn't GP though.

[Red Lightning]

God, if that system were still alive then I'd probably be one of the richest on here. *looks at Seth Rahl post count shamefully* Ugh, remnants of the Spam Wars indeed.

[AdventWings]

I was about three or four months too late for that.

Or I would've been among the rich peeps. Oh, well~

Yeah, so we're not allowed to transfer GP purely for OOC activities.

You can ask me if you can do it another way, though. ;)

[Cyrus the virus]

Seriously, how much gold did anyone ever get for commissions?

Thousands upon thousands of gold. For having a real-life talent that very few others had. How do you justify someone receiving gold for something like that when very few people can compete with it?


I'm of the opinion if you've got a skill, it should be able to correlate with the IC world.

And for people who can't draw? I'm sure I could make a bundle with my goofy paint art avatars, since people enjoyed them, but it's just not sensible to tie it in with IC rewards.

[Slayer of the Rot]

I agree. A lot of the artists rarely did anything IC. They'd go out with the mass of gold they'd gotten from their drawings, outfit their character with mythril equipment, and then never use the character again.

Besides, I'm of the opinion that level 0's should not have very strong equipment, like a mythril chain vest or a prevalida longsword, unless they worked hard, ICly, for the gold. It's absolutely ludicrous to find some way to justify getting that much gold. Perhaps you could say it was inheritance, or someone just up and gave it to you, but if you do that, I'm going to pummel your head with a brick.

I am strongly against OOC gold rewards. If you're getting something, you need to show the work you've done for it.

We are not hippies.

[Saxon]

How do you justify someone receiving gold for something like that when very few people can compete with it?

...It's capitalism? O_o

[Ashiakin]

Well, we're a bunch of commies.

Edit: Not to be glib or anything, I just think we're better off looking for ways to improve the GP system through IC incentives. I don't see how helping a few people get GP is going to do anything to ultimately improve Althanas.

[Cyrus the virus]

...It's capitalism? O_o

This is your argument? On an online role-playing board? I'll give you 50 gold to take that back right now!!

[Sighter Tnailog]

If I had my way, we'd have a hack that removed GP from your character's profile on a regular basis. Don't do things on the site, you'd slowly hemorrhages gold, and once enough had hemorrhaged your character would starve to death.

Seriously, people. With all this talk about gold as a discrete entity, we've never discussed how even the IC ways we've constructed Althanas's economy doesn't make a lick of sense. The Red Hand, no offense to those of you who were part of it, earned a lot of its gold through the absolute shittiest resource-gathering quests I've ever seen -- and trust me, back when RH was active, I judged a LOT of absolutely shitty resource-gathering quests. It was characters doing "work" for their GP, but in a senseless fashion that often did more to lower the quality of Althanas than improve it.

Furthermore, we never bothered to force the Red Hand to do anything like a real shop would do...such as pay overhead, shipping costs, or basically factor in any of the day-to-day costs of doing business. It was a HUGE lapse on the part of the moderators to allow the sort of hand-over-fist cash raking that went on during those years on the pretense of a few cleverly designed profit spreadsheets.

What we should have done was force the Red Hand to do things to keep up the blockade they got on the Bazaar; instead of letting them win one war and call it a day until the next Bazaar War, there should have been some requirement regarding the maintenance of the blockade...and why would the government of Corone just sit back and jack off while an outside entity monopolized the livelihood of the merchant class of its capital city?

There were so many nonsensical aspects to the RH's monopoly that were, for all intents and purposes, metagaming to the extreme. Only thing was, the metagaming being done was trapped up with all the dressings of IC activity, making all the more insidious. From all I remember of those days, I wish the mods had been more vigorous in policing system abuse, which is what it was.

That all said, it did do some good things, and I won't fault it there. But it was hardly the ideal of purely IC-related gold production that people orgasm about.

And furthermore, the complaints of those of you who don't want artists to get paid for their work seem silly. I, for one, would love to use some of my gold to buy artwork. As it stands, it's of no use to me because I've bought what I like. I have no need for purchasing an arsenal of fire-enchanted adamantium-and-prevalida nuclear bombs, you see, because it's the quality of my work which will carry the day. If that quality slips, it doesn't matter how much my equipment costs.

I just see absolutely no reason to work on an OOC currency system, really. GP seems to me a perfectly acceptable currency, because it's really a joke anyway. Characters on Althanas don't need the gold they have. They don't have to buy shelter, they don't have to feed themselves or clothe themselves. I mean, take Imperial's gambling -- what is the IC justification for betting a spread? Are characters in the Citadel aware of the scores? Are people placing bets in character, and if so, what does it mean when they bet on the scores? Do the monks of Ai'Bron score the battles? Judging is done OOC, so it seems silly to base any gambling on a score when that's mixing IC and OOC.

I just think that if we're gonna be all pants-in-a-wad about some purported offense to metagaming vis-a-vis GP, we should at least be consistent. But personally, I think GP is more or less a running joke on Althanas, it's the most useless commodity we have, and I see no reason to pretend like we have to maintain its integrity.

Because get this: gold HAS no integrity. It's just a silly fantasy roleplaying invention. The only way to make it more real is to create multiple currencies for the regions, tie exchange rates to forum activity, force characters to use an intensely regimented regional Bazaar system while vastly reducing the ability of characters to find items in quests, and begin editing scores up or down based on the quality of equipment used in the thread. Does anyone want that? No? Then stop trying to force gold to be real, because the only way to make it so is to do what I've described (in addition to a probable smorgasbord of other draconian measures. Gold is nothing more than a silly number and we're nothing more than silly children for assuming it has some privileged place in the IC universe.

[Cyrus the virus]

I say the exact same thing regarding EXP and weapons and magic and hey guys, why aren't Alerarian Elves leading regular attacks on Eluriand with those awesome airships that ONLY THEY HAVE? I'm going to spout off a bunch of logistical reasons why things should be different about one specific thing because it helps my argument, but you know, fuck all the other realism we ignore for the sake of fun, extremes are awesome.

Also, ignore that if two level 0's meet in a tournament and one is completely decked out in Titanium equipment with weapons made of laser beams, things he bought because he happens to be a really amazing artist, it's going to be completely unfair and be the only OOC influenced way of swaying a battle that we have. Maybe the other level 0 gives fantastic blowjobs, but it's not like he can blow people through the internet to buy himself some guns made of rainbows.

Bla bla comment about jerking off and orgasms.

[Raimeiken]

Eww. That was a very vivid argument. o.o;

I think it really depends on how you view it. I think gold is a currency, but it's not really that important. Sure, it can buy me lots of cute sifan yukata or even get a mythril sword, but it's no different than any other item in terms of story-telling. If you look at it from a role-playing point of view, it's just a way of getting powerful items that you may end up throwing it to the back of the room or just outright sell back to the merchant. It's really of a hit and miss for any argument to take place on the same realm, because this is a mix of two.

At least that's my take on it. I still don't see any use for GP asides from being a prop. Can someone enlighten me on this? I couldn't follow what Sighter was saying. ^^;

[Cyrus the virus]

Eww. That was a very vivid argument. o.o;

I think it really depends on how you view it. I think gold is a currency, but it's not really that important. Sure, it can buy me lots of cute sifan yukata or even get a mythril sword, but it's no different than any other item in terms of story-telling. If you look at it from a role-playing point of view, it's just a way of getting powerful items that you may end up throwing it to the back of the room or just outright sell back to the merchant. It's really of a hit and miss for any argument to take place on the same realm, because this is a mix of two.

At least that's my take on it. I still don't see any use for GP asides from being a prop. Can someone enlighten me on this? I couldn't follow what Sighter was saying. ^^;

I suppose the reason I'm concerned is because I actually use the bazaar to my advantage, regardless of whether or not a character particularly needs a new piece of equipment.

For instance, on my Izvilvin account I got two daggers enchanted with wind, making them lighter and capable of blasting a gust forward. More importantly, I also had a piece of armor enchanted to make it as flexible as cloth, despite it being made of Delyn or some other metal. Anyone can do this sort of thing, and why people don't purchase enchantments more often, I don't know.

Now, it took me about four quests to accumulate that kind of gold. The fact that someone could, if things were different, spend an evening making a great drawing and getting similar results actually offends me as an Althanas member.

Perhaps I should have posted this instead of making fun of my good friend Sighter, but I think he'll still love me anyways :)

[Doomsday]

I suppose the reason I'm concerned is because I actually use the bazaar to my advantage, regardless of whether or not a character particularly needs a new piece of equipment.

For instance, on my Izvilvin account I got two daggers enchanted with wind, making them lighter and capable of blasting a gust forward. More importantly, I also had a piece of armor enchanted to make it as flexible as cloth, despite it being made of Delyn or some other metal. Anyone can do this sort of thing, and why people don't purchase enchantments more often, I don't know.

Now, it took me about four quests to accumulate that kind of gold. The fact that someone could, if things were different, spend an evening making a great drawing and getting similar results actually offends me as an Althanas member.

Perhaps I should have posted this instead of making fun of my good friend Sighter, but I think he'll still love me anyways :)

Izzy's one of the higher level characters on Althanas^^ The Bazaar mods do take into the account of level when selling stuff. I'm sure that if a level zero with wads of cash came in they'd just leave with prevalida or something not too special, all the better materials do is not break and that's mostly up to the player if items break. I think that maybe there should be a cap on GP given for art to prevent people from giving wads and wads of cash to get higher on the commission que.

[Serilliant]

I have to agree with Cyrus here, Sighter. Complete realism has no place in a fantasy role-play. What we do, instead, is try to maintain the integrity and the 'funness' of a game.

What shocks me, too, is that you can simultaneously rail on the Red Hand for supposedly egregious metagaming violations, and in the same breath, assert your right to spend IC currency on artwork. What is the core of your argument? That the currency makes no sense so it should make even less sense?

The solution, I believe, is not to throw our hands in the air and say, "oh well, it doesn't work as originally intended, so let's resign to failure and help it fester." Rather, why not work to come up with a more robust method for dealing with gold IC?

[Sighter Tnailog]

I had thought the paradoxes present in my last argument were sufficient enough to show my point: that gold is silly. The reason we didn't lambast the Red Hand at the time was because we had a looser, more fluid interpretation of what did and did not constitute gold metagaming. Therefore, what shocks me is that you can defend egregious metagaming violations on the part of the Red Hand while denying the right to spend currency on artwork.

I don't begrudge you your gold, Serilliant, but everyone here has been yelling about how much FNT made while doing absolutely nothing in the IC arena, and Serilliant's activity ICly hasn't been much better than his ever was. I'm not suggesting we strip every Red Hand member of their gold, I'm just pointing out the double standard we're pressing vis-a-vis gold ownership.

It's already been said in this thread, but it bears repeating: we already give gold for OOC reasons. Moderators assign gold to threads based on the score the thread receives, which is simply as OOC as it gets. If gold were to be a true IC currency, we would immediately end the giving of all gold rewards except in cases where the player found the gold or earned the gold in the context of the story they've written.

Oh, and Cyrus, your question reveals no logical fallacy at all; in fact, it has already been established in past discussions and work between Cory and I that the reason Ettermire does not launch regular airships is in part because of a desire to protect their military technology from the destruction it would surely face at the hands of Raiaeran magic should they sail into Raiaeran airspace. It costs the High Bard Council nothing to cast a spell that takes down an airship in one blow, while it takes Alerar a significant amount of resources to construct that same airship.

Besides, your question also reveals a distinct lack of intellectual nuance when it comes to the way countries interact with one another. No matter the enmity, you don't start hostilities with another country unless you're confident of your victory; and Ettermire is in no way sure that sparking a broader conflict with Raiaera would benefit them in any way.

Now, I'm not attacking your point in general: you are right that we do admit some latitude when it comes to realism on Althanas. But I would suggest that, when making your point, you choose concrete examples that cannot be torn apart in five seconds by someone with even passing knowledge of the issues at hand, let alone the continent writer for Raiaera.

(Also, it's entirely possible to blow someone through the internet. It's called fantasy roleplaying, and Cory can tell you all about it. And apparently it can be done for money...unless I'm mistaken and internet pornography is not a substantial industry?)

We're not seeking complete verisimilitude, but what I'm pointing out is that in trying to mandate GP as an IC-only currency, what you are doing is trying to reach complete realism in your structures. What I am pointing out with the paradoxes and scenarios I drew above is that the logic of a strictly enforced GP-as-IC-currency policy falls prey to precisely the sort of logical conclusions that seem so radical when I said them above. It forces verisimilitude on a site that doesn't need them.

People in the Red Hand capitalized on gold metagaming to make their money, and people selling artwork did. Why one is being canonized and the other vilified in this thread is the thing which stymies me. What one can do instead is say that both earned their money legitimately and that gold is a more nebulous quantity, and that pretending otherwise is just seeking for a false and ultimately impossible level of realism.

I think the solution will probably be something along the lines of what you are promoting, Serilliant. In all honesty, it's probably the best way to go about it; OOC currency for OOC things. But I'd rather people at least see the dangers of where the conclusions they draw can lead them, because strict GP policies have at their core a logic that draws you inevitably to a bad place. And the reason I know this is because I've been writing these policies for years, I've watched them develop, and they can slowly lead to precisely the sort of regimenting I've described above.

So go ahead with the OOC currency idea, it's a good one and can reintroduce elements of Althanas that made the site fun back when GP served the same purpose. But be aware of the philosophical implications of the framework you suggest for GP. Philosophical implications may just be a figment of some Socratic imagination, but they have a way of biting you in the ass when you least expect it.

[Lucien]

Oh, and Cyrus, your question reveals no logical fallacy at all; in fact, it has already been established in past discussions and work between Cory and I that the reason Ettermire does not launch regular airships is in part because of a desire to protect their military technology from the destruction it would surely face at the hands of Raiaeran magic should they sail into Raiaeran airspace. It costs the High Bard Council nothing to cast a spell that takes down an airship in one blow, while it takes Alerar a significant amount of resources to construct that same airship.

Allow me to be so kind as to correct this mistake.


Oh, and Cyrus, your question reveals no logical fallacy at all; in fact, it has already been established in past discussions and work arguements about whose region was better and petty disputes over hypothetical tactics between Cory and I that the reason Ettermire does not launch regular airships is in part because of a desire to protect their military technology from the destruction it would surely face at the hands of Raiaeran magic should they sail into Raiaeran airspace. It costs the High Bard Council nothing to cast a spell that takes down an airship in one blow, while it takes Alerar a significant amount of resources to construct that same airship.

There.

[Sighter Tnailog]

Fair enough.

I'm still right.

[Saxon]

This is your argument? On an online role-playing board?

Yes, and its a sound argument. Despite whether or not the currency is real, people who have a certain skill or trade and decide to put it into practice should be compensated for it. I'm not entirely sure whether or not that should be something for the moderators and admins to decide, or if it should just be off-the-cuff with a couple paypal cents here and there. Honestly, at this moment I'm starting to question my stance on OOC currency, but I would like to point out that if art trading or other such things were to go on here, perhaps it'd be better if the players handled it themselves. Despite whatever privileges or currency you folks think up for OOC situations, it'll be just that; out of character. At the end of the day it has no real basis here, and whether or not you fellas pound out another ruling here, it's probably something for the players to decide as far as 'out of character' is concerned.


Because get this: gold HAS no integrity. It's just a silly fantasy roleplaying invention. The only way to make it more real is to create multiple currencies for the regions, tie exchange rates to forum activity..

What if we developed a currency system similar to that? I don't mean adjusting the judging curriculum, but introducing some sort of standard or international trading system for the regions. Regulations, more than one currency or monies that actually show the condition of the regions and how trade affects them, etc.

An Example: Bob is a fallienite, he needs a dagger for a fight and all he has is fallien currency which we'll call rupiks. He wanders around a bazaar in Alerar and discovers a shop that has just the dagger he needs. He walks over and he chats up the shopkeeper, Sally, and learns that it is worth 300 Alerian marks. When Bob hears this, he knows hes in a real bind, given that most Alerarians find rupiks to be troublesome and not worth half as much as what they put marks at.

Thus, we have what folks call a 'local international incident'. Did the world end? Was there a major crisis involved? No. This is one of the many things that occur between nations or countries when people migrate between them. Since many of us have pushed for a language barrier and the idea of foreign characters, incidents such as these economically are almost required to help spur that idea onward. This example shows that different currency and economic grudges between regions would put more weight and legitimacy of our currency system and give more reasons for players to compete and find a sense of nationalism if one form of currency for one particular region had more value than another.

We could also try the old fashioned bartering system of trading goods for other goods, which would both simplify and eliminate the problem of gold. The problem as many have said is that gold is essentially worthless; the only inherit worth currency has is what we give it. Bartering allows us to trade directly, and because every character comes from a different background or style, they possess items that would sell. Which is a good thing. But coming from more backgrounds then most of us realize, the gold standard compounds the problem rather then solves it. Setting the bar for currency and assuming that every region would have the exact same standard is silly and entirely unfounded. Wars are waged for more then just magic and for the sake of the battle, most of the time its usually about territory and money.

I think a lot of us are getting too comfortable with assuming that because we have human beings on Althanas, it should be modeled after modern Earth. It clearly isn't. Many regions hate each other, have waged war with each other, and I think a lot of us are trying to build Althanas off many ideas that founded the U.S., which is all well and good, but as many will tell you; Althanas is not the United States. If this is true, then why do we have a culmination of societies that are based on one fixed currency? Why do we assume that just because regions will kill each other over age-old grudges, they won't try to one-up each other economically. Our actual planet is colonized, its inhabited by human beings, and for the most part, a lot of the bickering humans have done on Earth have been minimized compared to what we used to wage wars and established embargos over. Perhaps its something to think about.

I'm not really sure how one measure who was rich or who was poor, but if you want to get technical about it, nobody really is. Althanas seems like its constantly in the winds of change because no two writers are ever alike, and someone else always has something to bring to the table. Bartering and actual trade would be a feasible option to give merit to our bazaar system, it would allow merchants a little more breathing room and some leeway to set prices, and it would get players off the moderator's backs as to why our currency is, in whole, nothing but a pissing contest for who has the most worth.

Another idea you fellas could try is establishing a credit system. Credit and borrowing have been around far longer then most people realize, and I'm talking two hundred to three hundred years at least. It could create a lot of in-character situations such as financial debt, poverty, or even spur wars into action because the creditors and 'taxmen' have had their citizens under their greasy thumbs for too damn long. If nothing else, credit and borrowing would allow the formation of banks and coffers, act as a story mechanicism, or even help flesh out a 'negative' factor for Althanas that shows that our characters can make mistakes that we just can't walk away from.

Not everything on Althanas has to be realistic, but we certainly do need a fair share of it. We could certainly do with a system of trade that actually works, more story mechanics, and even the allowance of a penalty for players other then death, which frankly, is getting kind of stale. Poverty sparks certain ideas that people haven't quite established yet in their stories. The necessity for law enforcement and government, the level of crime that is found in every form of society, even if some percentage of it was caused because parents stole and killed to feed their families.

The truth is, Althanas at the moment is happy-go-lucky; as writers and roleplayers, we're almost never in a situation in character that we are not in complete control over. Many of us have built a world with its fair share of problems, but most of it has been on an epic or national level. Local and state governments still count for something, and we should add some sort of basis for it rather than just assuming that its there.

[Cyrus the virus]

Rather than respond to your waterfall of evil text-poison, I'll just reply to the part that matters.


Moderators assign gold to threads based on the score the thread receives, which is simply as OOC as it gets.

Which means they had to complete an In Character objective of some sort before they were awarded any kind of gold, which is something every writer on Althanas is capable of.

Of course you might get 20 more gold if you get a 60 instead of a 50, which is holyshitsobiased, but it's not as if you got 2000 gold from somebody who didn't need it because you happen to be a good artist.

[Cyrus the virus]

Izzy's one of the higher level characters on Althanas^^ The Bazaar mods do take into the account of level when selling stuff.

If you have the gold to spare, you can buy anything you like in the bazaar and no, your level doesn't matter. Unless the policy has changed recently and I've gone by blissfully in my ignorance! Wee.

[Sorahn]

Therefore, what shocks me is that you can defend egregious metagaming violations on the part of the Red Hand while denying the right to spend currency on artwork.

And what exactly do you propose we do about the violations of the Red Hand, since you seem to love to point out their (our) obscene gold hoarding activities? Since you said we shouldn't take away their gold, why do you keep bringing it up? You say tolerate the Red Hand as if we're doing that now, but we're not. What happened in the past is in the past and has little relevance to the current system. Just like trading art for gold USED to be allowed, the Red Hand USED to hoard gold.

Having said that, let me point out that trading gold for art is paying IC money for OOC products. The Red Hand, as shitty as the threads were, were still threads. They involved IC activity, and thus got IC reward. Who's to say that threads that aren't of uber-quality don't deserve compensation? Are we going to tell all the noobs in the Peaceful Promenade that they don't deserve any gold because they can't write as well as Tolkien?


It's already been said in this thread, but it bears repeating: we already give gold for OOC reasons. Moderators assign gold to threads based on the score the thread receives, which is simply as OOC as it gets. If gold were to be a true IC currency, we would immediately end the giving of all gold rewards except in cases where the player found the gold or earned the gold in the context of the story they've written.

It's also been said before that gold is given out as a reward for IC activity and work. It varies with score, but that's simply trying to reward improvement in writing style and grammar. So in that sense, yes it is OOC. But it's only awarded for threads and quests and things having to do with IC actions.


People in the Red Hand capitalized on gold metagaming to make their money, and people selling artwork did. Why one is being canonized and the other vilified in this thread is the thing which stymies me. What one can do instead is say that both earned their money legitimately and that gold is a more nebulous quantity, and that pretending otherwise is just seeking for a false and ultimately impossible level of realism.

The only one talking about the Red Hand is you, so perhaps you could let what happened in the past stay in the past. Don't get mad because you didn't think of it first. ;)

Now, on to someone else.


What if we developed a currency system similar to that? I don't mean adjusting the judging curriculum, but introducing some sort of standard or international trading system for the regions. Regulations, more than one currency or monies that actually show the condition of the regions and how trade affects them, etc.

While yes this system offers a lot more realism by providing different countries with different currency systems much the same way they have different governments and religions, it also creates a lot more work for the mods, and generally makes the system more complicated and possibly intimidating for the noobs. I admire your thinking outside the box, but I don't think this particular idea would work well at all. Could you imagine the sidebar listing the amount of currency for every nation that you're currently carrying on you? Plus, what about people who only quest in certain areas in order to take advantage of exchange rates? Assuming currency for the nation you RP'd in was rewarded for your thread. If not, what would the reward be?

Also the bartering system has some problems in that the mods have to give you physical things as a reward which somehow matches the value of what they think you deserve for that thread, which can get ambiguous and subjective.

[AdventWings]

A note to Saxon:

I think the variety of Currency System can add a very fun and realistic flavor to any role-playing or story-writing community, a change that drastic on Althanas at this point in time is... well, for lack of a better word, drastic.

The feel of Althanas right now is too happy-go-lucky in regards to lifestyle to fret over the trivialty of economical realism.

There could be a trial run in the future on this idea, though it would have to be thoroughly discussed and tested before it will be used.

A simple reply for the time being. PM me if you need to discuss this. :)

[Doomsday]

If gold was entirely IC than it would be impossible to start Althanas with a rich character, people wanting to play a prince or a king of a small country would either have to be banned like having a gun at the start or just give them a lot of gold. Gold is just a nice way to get some stuff for the character that you accumulate over time.

While I did mention artists that got a lot of gold I wasn't complaining but stating a fact. I feel that those artists deserved that gold that they earned for providing a great service that for the most part they could charge real money for and instead took GP. I think it's really nice of them to do so.

On Contrast the Red Hand's service was really a scam and abused the system and with the bazaar war they really just screwed over the majority of the community so they could make a profit. They ruined the GP system for the time when the RHEO existed by having an unrealistic monopoly and could charge insanely high prices because the Bazaar was forced to charge even worse prices.

An example that I know well was that Kit/Ki bought Sifan kimono for less than it took for her to buy a denim Kimono through the RHEO after the Bazaar war. Stuff like that should simply not be allowed for it makes Althanas less fun for those not in the RH.

The artist's service however made those requesting it a joy. I loved the pics that everyone made and I'm sure that a few people wouldn't care as much about Ki/Kit or her family if it wasn't for some well done pics of her and they all have my thanks.

I believe that there's an unwritten rule about keeping things within levels at the bazaar but if that's not the case then there should be. No one will be happy if some low level hoarded gold to buy an assault rifle and when he bought it the RoG took it away when he reached level 1 or 2.

[Sorahn]

On Contrast the Red Hand's service was really a scam and abused the system and with the bazaar war they really just screwed over the majority of the community so they could make a profit. They ruined the GP system for the time when the RHEO existed by having an unrealistic monopoly and could charge insanely high prices because the Bazaar was forced to charge even worse prices.

Okay I'm sick of this. I kept my mouth shut this whole time but this entire thread is just an unfounded bashing the Red Hand. It seems most of the people here forgot what really happened during that time. Why don't you take it from someone who participated in the Bazaar War, was an RH member from that point on, LED the RH including the RHEO, and is now leading the resurrection of the RH?

First of all, many will tell you that the Bazaar War itself was one of the best wars on Althanas. It promoted lots of activity and some of the best writing I've seen. Ithermoss came up with a highly original idea and the result was the players themselves having a much greater impact on the Althanas economy, rather than GP just appearing and disappearing out of nowhere in the Bazaar. It got players more involved.

Second, I was a bazaar mod around the same time as the RHEO and also helped run the RHEO and I can tell you that we used the exact same formula for calculating price as the Bazaar always did. Whether you believe me or not, I know it's true. Many times the RHEO would sell things for less money because of the haggling system that was in place. But overall, the only difference between the RHEO's system and the Bazaar's system was the bazaar's formula had a 1.5 multiplier on the final price. This was put in place by the RH because we won the war, and was only there to encourage business in our shop. Everyone got their panties in a wad because suddenly they saw where all their money was going. Instead of disappearing into nothingness, it was going into other players accounts, thus more accurately simulating a REAL economy. When you buy something off ebay, your money doesn't just disappear, it goes to the seller, and the seller gets rich off of you and others like you. Are you going to get mad about it? No. It's capitalism.

Third, I dismantled the RHEO during my time as the leader. No mods forced me to, nor was it even a suggestion from any of the higher ups on Althanas. Perhaps they would have eventually, I don't know. But I took it down willingly and restored the bazaar to its original condition simply because everyone was making such a huge deal out of it.

Fourth, there's no reason to buy anything at the bazaar or the RHEO at all in the first place! Nobody's twisting your arm and telling you you have to buy that Titanium broadsword in the bazaar. If you are the slightest bit creative, you can come up with some kind of storyline for obtaining it and write a decent quest and most likely that item will be awarded to you. Everyone got so uptight about the bazaar's prices being high and the RHEO taking people's money but there was absolutely no requirement to shop there. You CHOSE to shop there.

So for heaven's sake people, lay off the damn RH. It was a creative and original idea, encouraged activity, helped some players by giving them some GP, created a more realistic economy, and generated fantastic writing. Do NOT tell me it was screwing the community. I'm so freaking tired of hearing it.

[Sighter Tnailog]

Calm down, Sorahn. The crux of my point is that the Red Hand's activities ONLY become bad if we take gold too seriously. If we choose to instead view gold with a more lighthearted and carefree attitude, then what the Red Hand did was perfectly acceptable.

What the Red Hand did was quite obviously and apparently an exercise in extensive metagaming. But my basic argument is that this only becomes a bad thing when you view metagaming as a bad thing, a priori. And I would hold that there is metagaming well-used, something which the Red Hand participated in. My point is, therefore, that to criticize the buying and selling of artwork for the reasons of metagaming requires one to logically view the RH in the same light; and to view one in a good light also requires viewing the other in the same fashion. The only cognitive problems arise when one views one as good and the other as bad. Since you seem unwilling to view the RH in a bad light, then perhaps it is time for you and your compatriots to exercise some cognitive consistency and "lay off the damn [art-sellers]." It would, at the least, be cognitively consonant.

As to the Bazaar War, Ithermoss actively involved me in the process of planning it prior to its implementation; although I did not participate IC, I was not a stranger to the processes and the preparations for it.

Honestly, Sorahn, your only mistake as leader of the Red Hand was in bowing to public pressure and relinquishing the RH's hold on things. If I were you, I would reform the RH immediately and relaunch a war on the Bazaar. If the players were that angry about a player-run monopoly on the economy, they should have banded together and done something about it. Now, I'd want to see some changes to the way the RH ran the thing -- for instance, it would only be fair to say that the RH has to maintain a certain income level in order to pay for its operations, and if it doesn't make enough money in sales it can begin losing ground -- but having a player-run economy is a goal of mine that the RH helped to realize. So don't see me as attacking the RH. And honestly, if we got the OOC currency in place, I wouldn't mind overmuch if that became a way for artists to get gold. My only concern is that in the process we treat gold more seriously than it merits.

Saxon, it's hard to even know where to begin with your post. Let me start with the most important point. To put it plainly, I have been on systems and boards before that try to run some sort of currency system with exchange rates between regions and different currencies. I will be bald in my assessment: it simply doesn't work. Not only is it a tremendous amount of work from a moderating point of view, but it requires extensive vB hacks, detailed formulas, and constant updating; it is virtually impossible to automate such a system without significant additions to the forum. Furthermore, the interim becomes extremely difficult, as people adjust to a new system, find their current currency either worthless or diminishing in value, and so forth.

That said, it is not impossible to use currencies as a roleplaying device. Findelfin, for instance, uses the Raiaeran Mark as his main currency; they are strips of iron (for weight) coated in a layer of mythril, and depending on the thickness of mythril used they are worth anywhere from 50-1000 GP. Raiaeran marks are mentioned in the "Economy of Raiaera" thread, which is available for anyone to read. If you want to use them, feel free. As far as I'm concerned, the phrase "gold piece" refers to the Coronian Gold Mark, and Corone, as a commercial center, has standardized that currency. Mythril is worth something in relation to it, and so Findelfin's "GP" is a representation of how much he has in Coronian standard. If someone from Alerar has 9000 GP, it might mean they own over 15,000 "rubiks" or whatever you call it, but how they show this is up to their character.

Furthermore, there are no rules preventing the use of the barter system. Nothing prohibits players selling to players. You speak of "some of us pushing for a language barrier." Good job; there should be language barriers between characters on more occasions than currently evidence them.

You are right in the spirit of things, Saxon, but it is simply impossible for a moderator staff, no matter how large, to implement structures that introduce these factors on a large scale. So this is my suggestion: do it in your threads. Althanas was made to allow freedom to individual storywriters. So do it yourself. Use a currency from your homeland, barter for what you want, try to trade this for that, try to haggle and shout, try to communicate with the Bazaar merchant despite differences in language.

Althanas really and truly cannot be made to function realistically by the sole, herculean efforts of moderators putting together effective structures. Either it introduces radical complexity and scares away new members or it makes current players angry. What we can do, however, is provide a system simple enough to work at a basic level but open enough for players to make it complex and real. The burden really is on the players to do that, though.

[Cyrus the virus]

Post.

Your thinking contradicts itself. You can't oppose the RH's business and support the OOC gaining of gold through art.

But no, the bazaar has no such unwritten rule, and nor should it. If you earn your gold through legal and fair means, you can spend it on whatever the hell you want. If I win a tournament and get 10,000 gold at level 0, and I want an airship, I get my airship. Not allowing people to get gold for art, for instance, makes these unwritten rules you suggest unnecessary.

[Doomsday]

I'm sorry Sorahn, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings and I know it wasn't your fault but I still stand by my words, it was mostly corrupt merchants that acted like used car salesmen such as Haruka Arting. It wasn't that others were getting my gold it was that others were fleecing me and the only alternative was to not use the gold I earn, except for maybe artwork^^. The RHEO could work again but not if it could have another bazaar war and then be unrivaled. maybe if there was a system that would make it so every HQ holding PG could have a shop. It was simply the monopoly that bugged me.


Your thinking contradicts itself. You can't oppose the RH's business and support the OOC gaining of gold through art.

But no, the bazaar has no such unwritten rule, and nor should it. If you earn your gold through legal and fair means, you can spend it on whatever the hell you want. If I win a tournament and get 10,000 gold at level 0, and I want an airship, I get my airship. Not allowing people to get gold for art, for instance, makes these unwritten rules you suggest unnecessary.

no just because artists can't get gold doesn't mean your scenario is right. I know Althanas rewards and should reward good writing but there is no way that a tourney winner should be able to get something that I could not get with a series of quests where I give my best effort. If you want to buy an unarmed blimp then it would be fine since I could have a series of quests to earn an unarmed blimp but to buy a flying battleship would not be ok for any low level character no matter how many tourneys he or she won. The level system is to make sure that the earnings are fair. Why should a guy who only plays in tourneys to show how great he is deserve more than a person that works their tail off in constant questing even though he or she isn't as good of a writer.

[Bloodrose]

I know Althanas rewards and should reward good writing but there is no way that a tourney winner should be able to get something that I could not get with a series of quests where I give my best effort.

There is nothing saying that you can't earn the same thing through a series of quests rather than winning a tournament. Both are equally valid methods of acquiring the resources that would be required to buy (since we're using it as an example) an airship.

If I win 10,000GP in a tourney, I can spend it on what I want.

You earn 10,000GP through a series of quests, you can spend it on what you want.

It's the same.

EDIT: I personally don't feel there is any need for a level-oriented bazaar system. As Cyrus has already said, if you acquire your gold through proper IC actions, then there shouldn't be anything to stop you from spending that gold. If I knock out a Judges Choice and get a big lump of GP to go with it, then I shouldn't be told I can't buy the sword I want because I'm...I dunno, level 4?

[Doomsday]

There is nothing saying that you can't earn the same thing through a series of quests rather than winning a tournament. Both are equally valid methods of acquiring the resources that would be required to buy (since we're using it as an example) an airship.

If I win 10,000GP in a tourney, I can spend it on what I want.

You earn 10,000GP through a series of quests, you can spend it on what you want.

It's the same.

EDIT: I personally don't feel there is any need for a level-oriented bazaar system. As Cyrus has already said, if you acquire your gold through proper IC actions, then there shouldn't be anything to stop you from spending that gold. If I knock out a Judges Choice and get a big lump of GP to go with it, then I shouldn't be told I can't buy the sword I want because I'm...I dunno, level 4?

okay lets try this example to show what I mean. lets say you get a ton of gold from several tourney's because you're a kick ass writer. like 10,000 and you buy a sword that lets you turn into a dragon and conjure rifts like my character Ki, something that I worked 3 years to get her powerful enough to have those powers.

or for something Cyrus will get, what if we get a born natural writer who's awesome and writes in tourneys and asks for lots of gold instead of spoils in his quests and he masses a ton by say level 2 and then buys a ring that allows him to amnipulate fire as well as Luc because he hoarded a shit load of gold. Should he be allowed that because he got the gold fair that he was able to get as powrful as a level 8 character at fire magic?

In the end there has to be a line to cross.

[Cyrus the virus]

Should he be allowed that because he got the gold fair that he was able to get as powrful as a level 8 character at fire magic?

Yes. Thing is, a ring of that magnitude would probably cost a good chunk, and he still wouldn't be as strong as Luc in other regards. He'd by no means be as powerful as a level 8 as a result, he'd just have a big edge over people at his own level.

And since he's an amazing writer who wins every tournament, he deserves it. We're a writing website, and tournaments are competitions. It's not like you have to deal with his fire ring if you don't want to, anyway, right?

But such a series of events is perfectly fair, rewarding to the writer, and exciting.

[Bloodrose]

Fair enough, I yield to you on the basis of your given examples. In doing so I'll ignore the fact that a sword or a ring the likes of which you have described would cost untold amounts of money. I'm no bazaar mod, but I imagine we would be talking Serilliant kind of money...

And if you've got that kind of money, then who's to argue with you?

All that said, I'll approach the idea of a level-oriented bazaar system. You bring up that there is a line to cross, and my next question would be, how is that line going to be drawn?

The number and variations of items that can be purchased in the bazaar is only limited by the imagination of the person doing the shopping. On top of that, all those countless items can be enchanted with a countless number of magical properties in varying strengths.

Can you imagine how impossible it would be for the Bazaar staff to devise and implement a leveled system that could be applied to such a broad spectrum of merchandise?

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Sorahn]

It's okay. I feel better now. Really.

Couple points though: I don't really see how what the RH did was metagaming. All the trade quests which resulted in items that were sold were done in character and the spoils were gained legitimately. The bazaar modifier was a logical result of winning the war and the resulting blockade of their trade routes. The shop itself was obtained legally according to forum rules. Everything was IC justified. But maybe I'm just not understanding your point. I could be wrong. I'm not afraid to admit the RH did some bad things.

Also I kicked Haruka out of the clan. As I recall she was pretty angry about it, but tough noogies. I'm also not seeing a difference between the RHEO being a monopoly and the bazaar being a monopoly. It's the same system.

Back on topic: I would agree that some people take GP a little bit too seriously. It sounds funny coming from me but it's true. There's certain flaws and inconsistencies that have to be accepted in order to keep it fun. On the other hand, I'm not sure that artists gaining loads of money for artwork is a good idea. I think GP has been and should be a reward for IC effort. It's a reward for someone who writes a good quest or battle or wins a tournament. No matter what context, it should be earned by in character writing. This doesn't mean it has to be IC realistic. Your character doesn't need to physically find the amount of gold they receive, but I think of it more as a OOC reward for IC writing, sort of like EXP. Someone getting a billion GP by drawing is like someone getting to level 25 by playing good music. Sounds a bit ridiculous to me...

As for the level limit in the bazaar..... meh well I dunno. lol It does seem rather odd for level 0s to have adamantium longswords that can shoot fire and warp time, however I also agree that if you earn money it should be yours to do what you want.

One thing you have to keep in mind though: I can hand a random little kid a $2500 top of the line Browning rifle, but it doesn't mean he's suddenly an excellent marksman. The same goes for characters. Just because a level 0 is running around with a ridiculously powerful weapon doesn't mean they know how to wield it. Lack of battle experience and training means they would still miss a lot, and their hits would be weak, regardless of how awesome their weapon is.

The exception to this is a gun. Guns up against swords... it takes no skill to win that fight. But that's an entirely different topic altogether, so I won't go there.

So perhaps with enchantments and the like, we could say that the character gets it, but it increases in power with their level. I think that would be fair and rather realistic.

[Doomsday]

Fair enough, I yield to you on the basis of your given examples. In doing so I'll ignore the fact that a sword or a ring the likes of which you have described would cost untold amounts of money. I'm no bazaar mod, but I imagine we would be talking Serilliant kind of money...

And if you've got that kind of money, then who's to argue with you?

All that said, I'll approach the idea of a level-oriented bazaar system. You bring up that there is a line to cross, and my next question would be, how is that line going to be drawn?

The number and variations of items that can be purchased in the bazaar is only limited by the imagination of the person doing the shopping. On top of that, all those countless items can be enchanted with a countless number of magical properties in varying strengths.

Can you imagine how impossible it would be for the Bazaar staff to devise and implement a leveled system that could be applied to such a broad spectrum of merchandise?

EDIT: Ninja'd

I know it sounds impossible but the RoG staff has to do it every time someone levels up. Also having a line drawn would prevent the scenario where the RoG has to take away or weaken an item bought at the bazaar, which leads to much drama.

Probably the best way is to ask if the ability gained from the item would be approved by RoG staff for that level if it was an ability.

[Cyrus the virus]

Also having a line drawn would prevent the scenario where the RoG has to take away or weaken an item bought at the bazaar, which leads to much drama.

When did this ever happen? Except the rail gun incident... Actually, was that even taken away?

The whole idea of limiting what someone can buy/be enchanted with from the bazaar is ludicrous to me. The chances of someone having such an extreme amount of gold to seriously tip the scales at level 0, 1, or 2 makes it just so unlikely to occur. And even if it did, the person would have that much gold because they were a fantastic writer.

So let's just drop it because the entire argument is silly. Let's instead brainstorm some uses for gold!

[Seth_Rahl]

Guns against swords...I think it would depend on the skill level of the characters, but I won't argue my point here.

Potential Uses for Gold:

The Obvious Ones--upgrades, new items, etc...
OOC--How about titles and shit? Instead of points, people could actually pay with gold. (I think this was mentioned and used before but I can't go back right now and check...in any case, if it was, I support it)
Exclusive Abilites, both IC and OOC: I don't know exactly what i'm saying here. Kinda like where you can pay real money to get exclusive stuff on MMO's, but rather its gold instead...if you have any suggestions just post.

And I"m braindead. Anyone?

[Saxon]

like 10,000 and you buy a sword that lets you turn into a dragon and conjure rifts like my character Ki, something that I worked 3 years to get her powerful enough to have those powers.

If it took you that long to get a sword like that, then that is your own fault, Reiko. Your a very talented writer, man, but com'n thats like waiting for the next ice age. Its agonizingly slow, and brutal because of the effort you have to put into it that in the end does not justify the means. I understand completely that great work takes a long time to accomplish, but thats ridiculous! I've had plans as well as many others to try new things with our characters, and if I had to write for three years at a time to get just that one thing, I'd probably quit.

You shouldn't be implicating limits on a person's imagination based on level. Obviously if they've earned the gold for whatever they asked for, chances are they know what they are doing and the people running the tournaments wouldn't have let them have one red cent if they knew they wouldn't be responsible with it and you should respect that. Lowering people down to an arbitrary level just because you want to make sure everything is fair is bullshit, frankly. We've got a level system already that promotes activity over skill, and we have the RoG standing by with fine-toothed combs to make sure that whatever we as players recieve cannot be used to overpower other players (albeit sometimes their methods can be a bit extreme, but they do serve a purpose). Its covered!

I don't think its fair nor right to be policing lower level characters for ingenuity and limiting what they can spend their gold on based on their level is not only wrong, its counter-productive. We should be focusing on what gold is being used for, and to do something that to lower level players like myself and all the other new members is like pulling up the ladder behind you. It's selfish, Reiko. There is absolutely no need to write more rules for level limitation when the staff have positions for people looking for people who powergame, it is overkill!


The exception to this is a gun. Guns up against swords... it takes no skill to win that fight.

How many times have we had the guns versus swords argument? A lot. Too many times in fact, and I'm getting tired of listening to it. It DOES take skill to use a gun, and I don't know if you ever handled one before, but unless your like a savant marksman, your aim is going to be horrible. And if it isn't in this game when you first get a gun, you are probably powergaming and the judge should be docking you mucho points for it. Just like everything else, guns take a lot of time and practice to use properly, and that needs to be established.

It takes a lot of skill and knowledge to keep and maintain a firearm, and just because it can fire at speeds invisible to the naked eye does not necessarily make a swordsman a sitting duck. There are countless ways to try and dodge or fuck-up a marksman, and just because you get shot for being unimaginative in a battle is your own damn fault. A gun is just like any other weapon with its own differences and its own similarities. Its used to kill, and if done properly, it will do the job.

But, this isn't about killing players or trying to one up them, this about playing on Althanas. If the people you are writing with are constantly trying to cap you and won't give you any leeway, don't write with them. It is that simple. Your a player and you write for your character, you virtually have control over every situation you choose to walk into on this site, and I'm sick and tired of listening to people gripe at others for having weapons they claim to be 'unfair' when they won't just sit down, pull out a pad of paper, and try to think outside the box. Heres a thought, you could even WORK with the people your writing with instead of bitching to the higher echelons to put a kibosh on it because you refuse to do any footwork. Guns themselves are not under any circumstances unfair here, its the people that use them, and I wish you, the RoG, and a lot of the staff would see that.

Quit thinking that every writer and player here is out to get you, people, we aren't. I thought Althanas was about to be about fun, roleplaying, and writing. What's fun about using the RoG as a rubber stamp on anything you personally see as not your 'method' or how 'you would do it'. If a person can conjure a fireball that can sear the flesh from your bones within seconds, than obviously guns aren't the worst enemy here. :rolleyes:

But, I digress. Leave level limits OUT OF THE BAZAAR!

[Sorahn]

But that's an entirely different topic altogether, so I won't go there.

um....

[Doomsday]

If it took you that long to get a sword like that, then that is your own fault, Reiko. Your a very talented writer, man, but com'n thats like waiting for the next ice age. Its agonizingly slow, and brutal because of the effort you have to put into it that in the end does not justify the means. I understand completely that great work takes a long time to accomplish, but thats ridiculous! I've had plans as well as many others to try new things with our characters, and if I had to write for three years at a time to get just that one thing, I'd probably quit.

You shouldn't be implicating limits on a person's imagination based on level. Obviously if they've earned the gold for whatever they asked for, chances are they know what they are doing and the people running the tournaments wouldn't have let them have one red cent if they knew they wouldn't be responsible with it and you should respect that. Lowering people down to an arbitrary level just because you want to make sure everything is fair is bullshit, frankly. We've got a level system already that promotes activity over skill, and we have the RoG standing by with fine-toothed combs to make sure that whatever we as players recieve cannot be used to overpower other players (albeit sometimes their methods can be a bit extreme, but they do serve a purpose). Its covered!

I don't think its fair nor right to be policing lower level characters for ingenuity and limiting what they can spend their gold on based on their level is not only wrong, its counter-productive. We should be focusing on what gold is being used for, and to do something that to lower level players like myself and all the other new members is like pulling up the ladder behind you. It's selfish, Reiko. There is absolutely no need to write more rules for level limitation when the staff have positions for people looking for people who powergame, it is overkill!



I really can't say how I'm pulling the ladder behind me, I never once bought an item above my level. It's not as silly or cruel as it seems to give the Bazaar mods the right to say that "This item's too powerful for you" it's just a break to keep players working to make their characters better and have stronger items when they're a high enough level top have something that strong. I'm not saying that players of level zero can only have rusty swords or even mundane swords. if a player has the gold he can get a flaming sword but he can't buy a sword that can easily melt rock with it's heat until say level 4 or 5, is there something wrong with that. Also what about when Player Owned Shops return? Should we simply not allow them even though they turned such a hefty profit under the RHEO, whether it was fair or not the merchants did turn a hefty profit, even the honest ones did. Should we not allow enchantments to be bought or make them impossible for the average member to afford? I really think that Merchants need to consider what level a character is when they're shopping. none of the limits are hard. and I really think that a level 0 could even buy a gun like a revolver or an old style single shot rifle if they had the gold, just no to AK-47s and the like.

Everyone here is limited by their level, Ki can't create black holes that suck up villages and her dragon form is not some invincible monster that could singlehandedly take on Radasanth like Godzilla. But that isn't to say a level 0 is incapalbe of doing something unique and cool, they still can and they still can be great warriors but they just can't be the best or have the best.

[AdventWings]

I think what we are looking for is the word "Self Restraint."

I can't figure, for the life of me, how a powerful item can help make writing interesting. Why I call them powerful is because of their potential to solve every problem or conflict the owner has.

Where's the fun in solving it when a problem can be made to disappear in two seconds?

Then again, that's just me.

And, yes, the RoG and Bazaar do keep tabs on what can be bought and how pricy things are. We don't say "You can't buy this" to anyone asking for something that can kill in one hit. We do say, however, "Yes, we have that. Althought the price tag is your arms, legs and brain. Pay up if you want it. Oh, wait, did I forget to mention that it will also cost you your eternal soul as well?"

And guns we do have. We don't give it away often, however, and it's all on a case-by-case basis. I'd like to see a farmboy try to shoot a gun without breaking his arm in the process.

About the Guns vs Sword discussion... let's leave that out of this thread. Not the point here.

Now, where were we? *Reads back on what was written earlier*

Ah, yes. What to do with the gold on our hands...

...Well, Seth Rahl pretty much summed up what I was thinking of. Anyone else wanna throw in their two copper pennies?

[Cyrus the virus]

There was a very brief mention of deteriorating gold in the mod forum, as in making it so (this is an example) characters would lose 10 gold a day or so, as if they had rent/food to pay for.

Now, I still have no idea if it's possible for a script to be written for that to happen automatically, but I was curious as to what Althanas would think of the idea. Maybe it'd motivate folks to spend their gold while they had it?

[Reiko]

There was a very brief mention of deteriorating gold in the mod forum, as in making it so (this is an example) characters would lose 10 gold a day or so, as if they had rent/food to pay for.

Now, I still have no idea if it's possible for a script to be written for that to happen automatically, but I was curious as to what Althanas would think of the idea. Maybe it'd motivate folks to spend their gold while they had it?

That idea's really dumb, I have enough trouble saving up gold and just taking it away so people would spend it is just stupid. If someone wants to save up the gold and buy a neat sword is fine as long as it isn't something overpowerful. if it's because there are people sitting on oodles of gold and not spending it, it's not going to effect them but lower level people and just wouldn't be fair to those that RP to earn money. Seriously it's a waste of time and would just make Althanas less fun. Don't do it since no good will come of it.

Edit: It also wouldn't prevent any problems with gold, just frustrate the players that don't have all day to RP on Althanas.

[Mathias]

Hmh. I'd rather get this topic focused back onto the reason we can't trade gold OOCly, and the solution for it.

Because as it stands, I'm disappointed we can no longer buy art. And without an incentive, why should any artist spend their time doing a commission? That's the nature of them.

Also, Reiko, you're overly concerned with powergaming, when that's not what "the game," of Althanas is about. I started to go into a detailed reply, but that's not warranted for this thread.

It's about gold and its eligibility (or lack there of) to be spent upon artistic creations outside of the IC world.

So that's what we should get back to discussing.

[Doomsday]

The discussion branched out, nothing wrong with that...

still people seem to be adamant about not having it. A couple of sollutions I gave were ignored. I think there should be donation caps. Like 50 for a quicky sketch, 100 for line art, 250 for high quality B&W, 500 for color and 1000 for high quality CGed art and not allow queue bribes that really got some artists rich and made it so poorer members not get any art because they couldn't bribe the thousands of gold.

[Lucien]

Then, we should gather together all the food and dish it out equally among the people as we hold hands and praise Stalin for a glorious day! Down with the bourgeois, Comrade!

Seriously, I don't like art commissions simply because it seems stupid to pay anyone with an arbitrary IC currency for a picture. But if we did have commissions, I'd encourage bribery, completely. That is, in fact, capitalism. People with more money get what they want faster. And this is a double edged sword.

Lets say Serilliant wants some artwork of his character cock-slapping a beaver. To get at the front of a line, he pays 10k gold. That's 10k less for him to hoard and 10 closer to the normal people so we can all laugh at his poverty.

[Cyrus the virus]

That idea's really dumb.

Thanks for your contribution.


That is, in fact, capitalism.

Because I see this kind of comment a lot: why does that make it good? Because it reflects our society? That doesn't automatically make it for our benefit.

[Lucien]

Well, capitalism is entirely about competition. That's also what most games are about. Factoring out the invisible hand of the market and game theories and all the economic crap, capitalism is like one big game where you compete to get the most.

Now, I'm not saying we turn Althanas into some gold piece grabbing version of hungry hungry hippos. I'm just saying I really love the idea of being jealous of Serilliant and Ithermoss' jew fortunes, because it gives me something to work towards beating.

[Cyrus the virus]

Well that makes a lot more sense, actually. I think it's interesting, and I could see myself supporting it if I didn't so strongly believe in people not being allowed to get gold for drawing pictures.

[AdventWings]

Well, frankly, I wouldn't give a fly's wing about how much gold I'd get for drawing someone an art piece. I just simply do it for free, easy as that.

Take out the money in Art Commission and all you get is Art Donation. Isn't it easier that way?

Oh, yeah. Just a note here before I go to sleep and wake up to a grueling Biometry exam, we used to have a very active artist base who do avatars and body shots - in BW and Colored. Now, they're off getting their ass kicked in the University. At least I know mine is. Hahaha.