Althanas Suggestion Thread

[Max Dirks]

I've always wanted to keep the suggestion thread active.

If you have any suggestions for Althanas, let us know here!

[Kryos]

Bring back the website skins! This default one just does feel right.

[Amari]

I heard 'bring us a pink skin'


YOU GOT IT!

*pink everywhere*



Although, skins are in the works! Don't worry :D <3

[SirArtemis]

With no judgment being 0 AP and workshop being 2 AP for a 55 and 65 respectively, I feel there's been a level of reducing incentive to write quality work, as it's a free pass to a high score. I'm all about the "game" aspect of Althanas, but it just doesn't add up.

A basic judgment is 3 AP, which gives you a 40/50/60 score. So you're paying 1 more AP and even if you do exceptionally (and most won't) you still will get a smaller reward than paying 2 AP.

Even if you reduce basic judgment to 1 AP, the fact that you have a much higher chance of getting a 40/50 than a 60 makes the no judgment the more practical choice. I would recommend the below changes:

0 AP - No judgment = 55 score
1 AP - Basic Judgment = 50/60/70
2 AP - Workshop = 60 Score
3 AP - Condensed Rubric
4 AP - Full rubric

I think this is more fair by permitting good work to receive a regular 60 score, and for writers to be able to choose between a judge's basic feedback or the community's. I think a 65 score is just too high for workshop because, quite honestly, I think writing a 65 in a condensed/full is genuinely difficult. And as such, the amount of effort that has to go into a thread to break 65 is pretty high for most authors. Few can easily break 70 even with effort. Dropping the workshop score and lining it with basic and making cost more available can re-distribute some of the writing aspects of this forum.

[Flamebird]

I fully one hundred percent agree with SirArtemis.

I honestly feel like Althanas has become less about writing and more about gaining exp, gp, ap, and cool little badges. Which, don't get me wrong, I like those things; but it feels like quality writing and stories have been pushed to the side - it should be the other way around.

I totally understand making the AP system to help lighten the staff's workload. You guys put a tremendous amount of effort into this site and you all rock at it! However, with even workshops, which can be just as helpful as one judge's full judgement, also having a cost... once again, this site feels more like it's about awards than quality writing now.

[Philomel]

I think this is a good suggestion and good points made in this. Thanks Arti. :)

I agree with the points raised and we will look at them

[Atzar]

I can support the idea of raising the ‘Basic Judgment’ benchmarks to 50/60/70 to make it a relevant choice, but I’d like to see the Workshop score remain at 65. It’s that high for a reason.

The Workshop was designed to accomplish two things. First: it greatly eases the burden on our judges. Nobody joined this forum to be a fucking judge. It’s a tedious, often thankless task, and judging burnout has cost us too many great writers and people over the years.

Second: it lowers the standard of writing for the site. This is a good thing. Flamebird mentioned this site being about loot now. It was always about loot. It was just more subtle in the past. All the best loot – EXP and GP, but also the juiciest IC spoils like rare materials – were locked behind a quality wall. As a result, Althanas always struggled with the perception of elitism. Many people would go out of their way to write with the best writers to piggyback a JC or to grab some loot that would otherwise be beyond their reach; meanwhile, the best writers would form cliques to keep their scores high. The existence of the Workshop – and its high score parameter – has helped to topple that elitism to an extent. Now that everybody has an avenue to a score that is viewed as ‘very good’, it’s no longer a sacrifice to write with somebody who isn’t INDK or Letho.

The Workshop is doing its job as intended right now.

[SirArtemis]

One more suggestion, as this has been on my mind, and is in regards to the bazaar. I know this is being looked at as it's been mentioned in passing but I imagine it's down the pecking order, so I'll just leave my thoughts here.

The bazaar, in my opinion, is underused for genuine power increases beyond roughly fifth level in many cases, and the reason is in part because costs dramatically increase while gold remains difficult to come by. I could net around 300-400 gold for writing a thread between 15-20 posts and scoring a 70. Yet the item I'm going for in my bazaar thread (www.althanas.com/oldworld/showthread.php?32204), which is admittedly quite powerful, is pricing in at over 33k gold. That is, quite frankly, unachievable. And as spoils like this are still calculated through bazaar rules before rolling through the rewards of writing a thread, it would still significantly dip into my gold even if I wrote a 70 scoring thread acquiring such an item. The discount just wouldn't be enough, even with me RP'ing the bazaar thread.

What does this cause? People work around the bazaar. As they get higher level, they skip items and just give themselves the inherent abilities/powers to do what otherwise the item itself would have. Why bother with effort and gold and AP if you can just add an ability without justification and just hit a power level in the ROG formula?

I think the ROG shouldn't have items that are unobtainable in the bazaar, but I do think these items should be more expensive. Simultaneously though, i think there should be a diminishing return effect of some kind in the mathematics behind the formula so that an epic item that is enchanted and comprised of multiple high-end materials starts to become cheaper with each additional ingredient. If I'm getting armor with five ancient dragonscales, charging the base increment on each scale is going to blow me out of the water. Charging a reduced value for the bulk ingredients might be more pragmatic.

Now to be clear, the item I'm requesting I still think should be clocking in at a minimum of 10k. After all, this is some legendary stuff here and extraordinarily rare and powerful. It shouldn't cost less than JDD's ship, and should maybe even cost more. 15k-20k is still somewhat reasonable. But the snag here is that even then, earning that kind of gold in character is impractical and forces a tremendous amount of OOC activity. You're talking probably 150 AP on top of say the 5k gold you earn by writing and participating in character. That's well over 30 workshops done thoroughly. No harm done for someone like me, as I do so many, but impractical on a community level.


TLDR
My overall suggestion is two fold. Increase gold rewards for in-character activity and/or reduce the scaling costs of purchasing high-end items so that characters over level 5 and even 10 have an incentive to go for such items rather than just writing abilities into their level ups that do the same job. That, or change how spoils are calculated/paid for when writing a thread where such epic items are earned so that legendary items are more accessible.

[Abomination]

Second: it lowers the standard of writing for the site. This is a good thing. Flamebird mentioned this site being about loot now. It was always about loot. It was just more subtle in the past. All the best loot – EXP and GP, but also the juiciest IC spoils like rare materials – were locked behind a quality wall. As a result, Althanas always struggled with the perception of elitism. Many people would go out of their way to write with the best writers to piggyback a JC or to grab some loot that would otherwise be beyond their reach; meanwhile, the best writers would form cliques to keep their scores high. The existence of the Workshop – and its high score parameter – has helped to topple that elitism to an extent. Now that everybody has an avenue to a score that is viewed as ‘very good’, it’s no longer a sacrifice to write with somebody who isn’t INDK or Letho.

I'd like to offer a counter-perspective on this. For me, it's never been about loot. EXP, GP, items, those are just numbers that go up. I can go to any other game and do that. I've already gotten infinite amounts of all that stuff anyway, and none of it has gotten me anywhere. In a closed quest, or really any non-competitive thread, does it even matter what your level and wealth are? You can pretend to have whatever you want, because it's your story.

The incentive for me is collaborative writing, and the reason this perceived 'elitism' has sprung up, is because there are a diminishing few amount of people that are willing to put the work in to make something interesting, to really go at it from every angle, edit it until it is free from error both grammatical or literary, and this huge amount of time isn't worth sharing with someone who just wants to have a simple role play. The remaining cliques are just people who write with their friends; the so-called 'elitists' are gone.

I feel that the thing that made this place stand out for all these years was promoting excellence. There are hundreds of sites with EXP/whatever, that's not really a reason to stick around. While I'm suffering from a years-long writer's block, I still stand by my initial goal of writing something interesting. Just offering some perspective from those that try to get JC's, in that, they're not symbols of superiority-

They're proof that you made something that is worth reading. Not saying that anything outside isn't worth reading, but as a highly self-critical writer, it tells me that enough people thought it was a good idea to display it as a showcase for the world.

"These people tried to capture your interest, did they succeed?"

[Flamebird]

Abomination put it perfectly. That's how I've always seen the site too. Anywhere else you could just get exp and level up, but on Althanas it's more than that. It is about pushing to be a better writer - and in a fun "let's destroy some Raiaera zombies!" way too!

I do kind of get the elitist thing. I actually felt like the site was full of "grreat writers" then "me" for a while. That actually pushed me though from being the average role-player to being... er... at least a little better. With the AP system and lack of ability to pay for full judgements, my writing has been getting worse again though. Everyone on this site is so friendly and willing to work with you however. After my socially awkward and shy self warmed up to it, I did feel like a part of the site. I don't think elitism is a problem much either. My cousins and I did make up a small cliche at a point though xD

It feels like a lot of the writing aspects of the site has, once again, been pushef aside. While getting a sweet adamantine sword can be awesome, it certainly would be I would be hyped over getting such a weapon, it is not what makes this site unique in my eyes. The writing, and how this site aims to help improve it, makes Althanas more unique and long-term meaningful.

[SirArtemis]

To address Atzar, Flame, and Abomination, this site has always been a place to improve my writing. And for me it has done that. It wouldn't have if I disregarded feedback for the sake of levels. A lot of what I've learned is reading the work of others as well. But I don't think it is good to discourage the quality of writing just for the sake of activity. There has to be room for both. And reducing the workshop score to 60 instead of 65 doesn't make a huge shift. I think people will still do workshops and basic judgments, and I'd like to think a basic judgment isn't going to take a super intense commitment. A judge could read a quick thread through and go with their gut of average, below average, or above, and just plop a score with high-level thoughts. I feel like very few threads do get judged these days and are just popping out with fixed scores. I still think workshops can be helpful. That's why I do them. I try to give constructive feedback on a writing perspective. I think that's what you try to do too Atzar. I just don't see the elitism/JC thing any more and I don't think the workshop stops it because, quite frankly, no one even bothers with "epic loot" any more because you can just add an ability in the ROG to do that for free, as I mentioned.

[Gum do Mugu]

phi said it way better <3

[Philomel]

Thank you for everyone for your comments. Also thank you for all being polite, you really do allow us to show that Althanas can be a place where people can discuss things in an open manner and without inspiring huge arguments, which would not be great on this thread.

What Althanas Is For

Edited. Specific names taken out.

Firstly I would address the idea of what Althanas is for. Althanas is for you what you want it to be. If you see it as a way to gain loot, then that is absolutely fine. I am glad you enjoy the site, and you find a use in Althanas. For who see it is a way to improve your writing, that is also absolutely fine. That is one of the goals of Althanas - it is to help people to try to improve their writing skill, BUT it is also a place for people to write for fun. Both are just important. What makes Althanas unique is our rubric, and yes with more AP you can get a judgement from a judge who has been trained and practises the system reguarly. But also the site is about creating a character you love, establishing a community and creating great stories.

Bazaar and Item Costs

Sir Artemis, I would also draw your attention to the fact that yes people do use their character levels to get abilities that would do similar things to items from the bazaar, but they also need to spend huge resources (their Level Points, please see RoG Guide) in order to get them. And they do this on the scale of then not being able to have other abilities, for instance instead of an offensive ability. I do realise the item in question is expensive, and a lot more than the general item that can be gained from the bazaar. This is largely down to the fact you are looking for a top teir material for a whole suit of armour - but it is expensive. We can certainly look at revising the Bazaar though and looking at whole suits of armour and their costs and see if there is a way to lower them. Thank you for bringing it up, it will be looked at in due course.

AP and Judgement Base Scores

As commented above by myself there are some really good suggestions that you gave and we can certainly look at. The comments surrounding the Workshop due tend to be a bit mixed so I will try to summarise them and look at them piece by piece. Overall though you all seem to like the Workshop in general but there is mixed opinion over what it is for/what score it should have/what effects it should have. Is this correct?

[SirArtemis]

I think the "no judgment" road was meant for quick rewards without caring about feedback. Workshop is a bit more cost for feedback, but I just have tended to feel that in too many cases people take advantage of the workshop being a fixed score and don't always concern themselves with edits or try as hard cleaning up their work. Not always the case, but again, it sort of seems they pay the 2 AP for the higher score rather than the feedback. And that just diminishes the effort a reviewer may feel is worth investing. You get what you give. And I don't want a culture that discourages workshop effort. Is the 2 AP for the score? Because as an alternative you could do...

0 AP is no judgment 55.
1 AP is no judgment 60.
2 AP is 60 and workshop
2 AP is basic judgment (50/60/70)
3 AP is condensed
4 AP is full

That way you take the score incentive from workshops out so people do not take that road just for the xp boost and not care for feedback.

[Atzar]

Atzar, if you see it as a way to gain loot, then that is absolutely fine.

No, I don't. Speaking personally, the site has always been about community first and storytelling a distant second (I spend a lot more time shooting the shit with people in chat than I do writing; always have). I just don't agree with the notion that the site has undergone a shift toward rewards and away from good storytelling. There have always been those who write for the rewards and those who write for the story. I don't think it's any different now than it was in the past.

[Philomel]

Okay, apologies, I misread your post. My point is, is that it does not matter what you get from the site. As long as you enjoy what you do. I hope you would agree with me on that stance.

[Philomel]

Thank you for the alternatives also Sir Artemis.

[Atzar]

Okay, apologies, I misread your post. My point is, is that it does not matter what you get from the site. As long as you enjoy what you do. I hope you would agree with me on that stance.

I do.

[Philomel]

I do.

:)

[Nevin]

Another new suggestion and a link:
We're talking in chat, and apparently there has to been a major event in a while. So we're looking at it, and we have an idea: target the Church of the Ethereal Sway in Salvar. It'll be a major undertaking requiring different avenues of attacking them - literal attacks, political attacks, religious assaults, the works. So a few of us are working on an idea sheet for it over in Google docs, and we'd love to get this going!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eunxAHRBtGFSPytW1qTT8NB9qHN-KpdZ1MMGgjLsbr8/edit?usp=drivesdk

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

To begin this post, I just want to say, you nailed it on previous posts here, Philomel. We all truly love Althanas for whatever reason it may be. I also want to say thank you for all your hard work to take care of us in all sections and for your feedback. I/we really appreciate you for it. Thank you so much, Philomel. I think Dirks and his staff members over the years have done an amazing job with evolving Althanas to all of our personalities, writing evolution desires, and enjoyment for whatever reason we all come here.

But, anyways, with that said. To why I'm posting here with a suggestion. I was thinking back from when I was asking an Admin about post limits and post word limits to turn in a thread for judgement or no judgement type thing from a long time ago and it recently got me thinking about ways to boost participation and membership if only in a small way. It also got me thinking about past/current/and future member involvement pushing on with 4.0. Life kinda kicks us all in the ass sometimes and it hurts our participation and love of writing.

My suggestion is that something could possibly be done about it in light of word limit shrinking of Vignettes and the Writing Challenges Hysteria hosts. Maybe cater to those that have found time problematic to write like we love and are used to here by opening up a special sub-forum, or allow shorty-type stories in somewhere among the World of Althanas and Freeform sections. Something like 1,500 to 4,000 word shorties, instead of 5,000+ word 8-10+ post threads for those that just don't have the time to pump out longer threads, but still participate, and still nurture their love of writing, with optional gain for the same RPG reward-type continuation people enjoy, but only as a No Judgement type thing. I mean this as strictly solo type threads. I know it'll be more work for our staff to add everything up with these threads, but it may boost things here.

To add to that, I dunno if something like my suggestion is already in place, but just figured I'd post it. It's all just a thought and there is a lot of room for improvement with it.

Thanks to the staff for taking time out for reading this. You guys are awesome!

I was not aware we were operating strict limitations for normal threads. In my time as an administrator, I saw everything from two post threads to forty post threads. Some of the shorter threads were actually really, really good and people tended to absorb more of the thread's message than with those that ramble on for pages at a time.

I think the thing to remember is that limitations will almost always come in the form of rewards - for the majority of cases, the lower the post count, the lower the rewards. That said, if the thread is written well it is entirely possible to compensate the lack of post count for a good score in the rubric. In a workshop, you can post as much or little as you like and score a 65 - but, of course, post count determines rewards.

In short, there is nothing I can remember that prevents anyone submitting even a one post thread (I have seen it done). But, of course, you can't then expect sterling rewards. I find the the best balance is a well written, shortish thread. Long enough to have a good plot and some action, short enough to not bore the arse off some people.

Also, one tip I can give to you now from an extremely hindsighty point of view is to limit posts to 60 minutes! It's worked wonders for me.

[Garron]

Alrighty. I didn't know much about it. Thanks for the info, Shin!

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Alrighty. I didn't know much about it. Thanks for the info, Shin!

No problem pal. I don't think it is especially clear, and in all honesty I am speaking from memory more than anything. I hope I helped though!