Combat Orientation

[Visla Eraclaire]

The Magus Cup thread is being overrun by commentary on the difficulties had by non-combat oriented characters. This is in part my fault, and so I've made a separate topic to discuss it.

I'll now summarize what I see as the points thus far.

POINT: Tournaments (and Althanas generally) puts a lot of emphasis on combat over anything else. Non-combatant characters are disadvantaged by this.

REPLY 1: This is not a fault of the system, but rather of people or of the fantasy genre. (The International)

SUR-REPLY 1: Granted. This is the cause for why many characters do fight. They are welcome to. The issue is that many if not all of the events of Althanas prefer combat to non-combat. I don't know if you will be familiar with it, but The Cell is a prime example. One of the most interesting ideas, but combat focused. A non-combatant would be mere comic relief in a X man enter 1 man leaves type fight. Comic relief is never going to win first prize. (Visla, new in this thread)

REPLY 2: You needn't fight. People have engaged in non-combat activity in tournaments before. (Max Dirks, The International)

SUR-REPLY 2: This only works if both parties consent. If a non-combatant runs up against a fighter, he is forced to run or act confused or fight back. A combatant acts in character and does what his character does best. A non-combatant has a choice between acting in character and spending the thread fleeing, dodging, etc. or acting out of character and fighting back. If the character is a craftsman or a stealthy thief or a writer, it becomes abjectly difficult to do what the character is designed to do when pitted against a combatant in a tournament. The ability to cite counter-examples does not eliminate the problem. This is not always a problem, but it is one that a non-combatant faces which a fighter does not. (Zantetsuken, Kially Gaith, Visla)

REPLY 3: This is a forum for adventurers. Tournaments are for the bold. Those who made meek characters made their own beds. (No one has said this yet, but I anticipate it)

SUR-REPLY 3: This may be the case, and if so Althanas is welcome to declare that official policy. However, since it is a writing forum and not strictly an RP forum, I would find this unlikely. There are an increasing number of unconventional non-combatant characters. Visla would be one of them if I hadn't compromised somewhat at character creation and given her at least a minimal ability to fight. I did that because of this very problem. I knew if I wanted to be part of Althanas-wide tournaments and other such competitions, I would need to be able to battle. Battles have long been the preferred method of leveling (for those who consider the forum a game, this is not my concern, but one I have noted) because they are quick, rewarding, and require little planning. While both a quest and a battle need good writing, a battle describes a time-span of as little as a few minutes, while a quest could stretch to years. Granted, a long thread of equal quality should always get more xp, but battles are just easier to make. But I digress. Non-combatant are here. Althanas ought to be more accommodating. I hear this is going to be the case soon, so I'm not particularly riled up about it, but I wouldn't mind more information from the staff on these upcoming changes.

FINAL NOTE: As I stated, the Magus Cup is already underway and whatever problems might exist will continue to exist in that tournament. This is focused on the future.

[Taskmienster]

Comic relief is never going to win first prize. (Visla, new in this thread)

In one LCC, I think it was, Ter-thok and Chroma Rockskin won and both characters were barely combat oriented, more gimick characters that won through comic relief. Lol. Just a side note.


As for fighting character's being paramount, there are a few side notes for quests at least. My only JC was with a character, Lugh, (which was lost due to one of the crashes around '06) was almost purely non-combat. It was all character development and creating a realistic world that was written well enough to gain a great score.

I remember reading some of yours back with Alcolyte Boshe and I believe a lot of them weren't combat oriented, though they were amazing threads. And there are characters like Ataraxis who's a librarian and seemstress, lol.


As for tournaments, I'd like to see those not oriented to battling, and am welcome to accept and flesh out idea's that are non-combat if people are interested in posting idea's for them.


For the current tournament, however, I think it'd be best to attempt to stick to battling unless you'd like to write something with your opponent that is oriented in a different way.... but you'd have to get consent from the opponent and flesh out and idea ahead of time in order for this to work well.


Thank's Vilsa for taking this to another thread, btw.

(I'm off to work, but I'll check up on this when I get back later today.)

[Visla Eraclaire]

Yes, when questing, non-combat oriented characters can do spectacularly. I think the whole issue is with the tournaments, which are a massive source of character advancement.

I, myself, am not terribly concerned with being some absurd double-digit level, but for someone who wants to "progress" in that manner, fighting is the way to go. If one wants to toil as I did with Bosche and Mephisto writing numerous solo quests and advancing a long term plot arc, it is possible to get somewhere without battling or participating in tournaments. However, you'll note that desite a JC or two to their names, those characters were only level 2, easily surpassed by a battler in a few stray threads.

That to me seems like a flaw. It's one I discussed a great deal when I was a judge, the imbalance between battle and quest xp. Frankly, from what I've seen more recently, that's gotten a lot better. I'm no longer able to look under the hood and see what calculations you folks are doing, but it seems like a much more level playing field.

Still, I don't think issue is so much advancement as opportunity for inclusion. Tournaments are big events for Althanas, they're what people remember and constantly reference. There are some people which religiously read the threads of other posters, but the biggest chance to get your name out there and be part of something memorable (for better or worse) is the tournaments.

I give you the following example from my own character, which I will note is not the most extreme one possible. Visla is capable of fighting and not a pacifist. However, this problem remains:

I have signed up for a tournament. Why in the world would I? I know why I, the player, would. Why would Visla participate in such a thing? She doesn't care about wealth or prestige. She's frail, conflict averse, and has more important things to do. Still, I want to participate in something like this on Althanas, so I'll have to manufacture some kind of reason. It will be somewhat hackneyed and it'll likely lose me a few points.

Average player has signed up for the tournament. His character is a street tough, or a crusading knight, or a cocky battlemage or any of a dozen other stereotypical "adventurer" types. He wants in and his character wants in too. No problem and everyone's happy.

Now, as I mentioned before, one might say that's my own fault for making a character that isn't likely to participate in tournaments. Maybe, but do we really want to encourage all players to create cookie-cutter characters that are competitive and brash? I would think not.

My solution to the problem stems from something that was echoed time and time again during the dreadful Invitational tournament. It isn't about the fight; it's about the writing. Set up a tournament whereby there are the same time limits, there are the same sorts of "match ups" but the form is not set the same way. The tournament is entirely an OOC construct, OR alternatively, is a supernatural construct rather than one of mortal agency.

Let me elaborate. Normal tournament structure dictates two (or however many) people have a thread together and they have X amount of time to make Y posts and whoever scores the best wins. The settings are determined by the first poster or by the tournament, and I'd say more than 9 times out of 10 they exchange volleys of attack and defend until time runs out and then try to toss in a conclusion.

Here is how my tournament would be set up. Rather than saying here's a thread, you two compete, the situation would be more like a vignette. You two, you have X amount of time to write about topic Y. Y could be a setting, a theme, another character, anything.

Each round has one topic that is announced at the beginning. Yes, making the topics takes effort, and balancing them is difficult as well, but if they were written broadly enough and well enough, they would produce a balanced competition.

Now, how does the tournament happen IN CHARACTER. Option 1: It does not. Like vignettes, the happenings are only as cannonical as their writers wish and the rewards are not recognized IN WORLD. Option 2: It is of supernatural origin. A powerful sect of mages, planeswalkers, or deities watches Althanas and their chosen scions are annointed with power and fame. These people needn't seek their rewards, for the entities are ever watchful.


If this interests the staff, contact me further. As I've described it, I'm becoming quite enamored with the idea.

[Requiem of Insanity]

That tournament structure makes the most sense for all parties on Althanas. A vignette like structure of tournament can actually include everyone and there is no awkward situation.

If I may be allowed to add to your idea, or expand upon it, it could be a tournament with teams (yes I know, team battles usually flop, but go with me here) that are set up with Combat character/Non-Combat character. Then their first round is solving the puzzle/ beating the bad guys in your first round.

Example: Cassandra is a non combat character, but has a high intellect for solving puzzles or tracking people down for her torture.

Godhand is more attuned to the role of Combat. Together they get the prompt,
"A group of theives has stolen an item from each of you, and you both have to work together to find them."

So now Godhand and I would work up a story for our round to get our stuff back. This actually includes our ability to work together, come up with a feasible writing plot, and hell, godhand can beat the shit out of everyone while Cassandra goes off into a corner and tortures the crap out of the ring leader.

That's just an example of the idea. I really dig vignettes as well, because they are one off types of situations. If I saw a tourny where I didn't have to fight mongo number 5 i may be more inclined to join in them.

[Bear Man]

Not to chime in about what I don't know about, but I've been reading this with interest and I have one thing to point out:

Average player has signed up for the tournament. His character is a street tough, or a crusading knight, or a cocky battlemage or any of a dozen other stereotypical "adventurer" types. He wants in and his character wants in too. No problem and everyone's happy.

Now, as I mentioned before, one might say that's my own fault for making a character that isn't likely to participate in tournaments. Maybe, but do we really want to encourage all players to create cookie-cutter characters that are competitive and brash? I would think not.

Say what? It is possible to create a non-stereotypical, non-cliched character who still can fight decently. Not everyone has to be BIG MCLARGEHUGE, DEATH KNIGHT or PUNCH ROCKGROIN, STREET SAVVY BRAWLER, or BLAST FIRECALLER, WIZARD OF PWNAGE.

I was just a lil' insulted by that, although frankly I rarely create combat-oriented characters. Except for this site, where I specifically did make a big fighty tough character just because of the tournaments and the Citadel.

So I guess in conclusion, all I really have to say (besides from my amusing names...wait, one more: HULK MANFIST, PALADIN OF JUSTICE AND BEATING SHIT UP) is that the system definitely does encourage making combat-based characters. Or at least it did for me.

I definitely didn't just make this post for an excuse to say PUNCH ROCKGROIN. Definitely not. I mean, that would just be stupid!

[Caden Law]

While not a tourney-goer and certainly no longer a member of staff, something about this thread got under my skin. Specifically:

I give you the following example from my own character, which I will note is not the most extreme one possible. Visla is capable of fighting and not a pacifist. However, this problem remains:

I have signed up for a tournament. Why in the world would I? I know why I, the player, would. Why would Visla participate in such a thing? She doesn't care about wealth or prestige. She's frail, conflict averse, and has more important things to do. Still, I want to participate in something like this on Althanas, so I'll have to manufacture some kind of reason. It will be somewhat hackneyed and it'll likely lose me a few points.

That's easy. She got dragooned into it (someone put a geas on her, someone took her poodle hostage, someone bribed her into doing it so she could artfully take the fall in Round ???, whatever). Classic Reluctant Hero archetype. For all your talk of being more interested in roleplay than in combat, you seem to find great difficulty in coming up with a simple backstory. And it's a poor roleplayer or writer who hides behind the excuse of But my character would never do X...

There's also the FQ. It might be adventure-oriented, but it's RP and writing and it'd be fairly easy to write a good quest-line up involving things that play to your character's strengths. You don't have to stick to the mission boards and even if you do, there are usually a few missions where you don't expect to see nothing but combat from start to finish -- and you could easily stretch those out.

Now, as I mentioned before, one might say that's my own fault for making a character that isn't likely to participate in tournaments. Maybe, but do we really want to encourage all players to create cookie-cutter characters that are competitive and brash? I would think not.

You're right here. We encourage players to make what they want at the time and work from there. I made Caden to be a squishy Wizard and now he's a half-competent swordsman. You made Visla to be a flimsy social recluse and now her profile basically hints that she's a ticking black magic time bomb. Roleplay, and storytelling in general, does not have to be all depth and fancy words. A brash and competitive cookie-cutter can be a hell of a lot more fun to play than either of the archetypes our characters represent, and that's why most people go for it.

My solution to the problem stems from something that was echoed time and time again during the dreadful Invitational tournament. It isn't about the fight; it's about the writing. Set up a tournament whereby there are the same time limits, there are the same sorts of "match ups" but the form is not set the same way. The tournament is entirely an OOC construct, OR alternatively, is a supernatural construct rather than one of mortal agency.

<snip>

Here is how my tournament would be set up. Rather than saying here's a thread, you two compete, the situation would be more like a vignette. You two, you have X amount of time to write about topic Y. Y could be a setting, a theme, another character, anything.

Each round has one topic that is announced at the beginning. Yes, making the topics takes effort, and balancing them is difficult as well, but if they were written broadly enough and well enough, they would produce a balanced competition.

Now, how does the tournament happen IN CHARACTER. Option 1: It does not. Like vignettes, the happenings are only as cannonical as their writers wish and the rewards are not recognized IN WORLD. Option 2: It is of supernatural origin. A powerful sect of mages, planeswalkers, or deities watches Althanas and their chosen scions are annointed with power and fame. These people needn't seek their rewards, for the entities are ever watchful.

...yeah, I hate to be non-civil here and I've really been biting my tongue this entire post, but your solution stinks. Sorry.

Option #1 has so many flaws in it I'm having trouble which one to single out first (the potential problems judging it, the problems most people will have conforming to it, the lack of involvement between combatants, the fact that it seems just plain boring...).

And Option #2 is the same thing you were railing against a few paragraphs ago!

Why in the world would I? I know why I, the player, would. Why would Visla participate in such a thing? [...] Still, I want to participate in something like this on Althanas, so I'll have to manufacture some kind of reason. It will be somewhat hackneyed and it'll likely lose me a few points.

Option 2: It is of supernatural origin. A powerful sect of mages, planeswalkers, or deities watches Althanas and their chosen scions are annointed with power and fame.

That basically speaks for itself. Again, sorry.

[Saxon]

Tournaments are meant for competition, so naturally combat would be an ideal choice to help fuel the idea that two writers or roleplayers are going to be competing against one another. I understand not all players are combat-oriented, but I've also seen some of the tournaments or events that have been non-combat oriented.

I think it was within the first year I joined there was a tournament that came up that was pretty much quest-based with people forming teams and completing objectives. The idea was a breath of fresh air now that I look back at it, but the way it was executed made it into a convoluted mess. So, there are options out there to start tournaments or events that have little to do with combat (Featured Quest anyone?), but it'll take some doing to plan these events and follow through with them accordingly.

I have signed up for a tournament. Why in the world would I? I know why I, the player, would. Why would Visla participate in such a thing? She doesn't care about wealth or prestige. She's frail, conflict averse, and has more important things to do. Still, I want to participate in something like this on Althanas, so I'll have to manufacture some kind of reason. It will be somewhat hackneyed and it'll likely lose me a few points.

The problem with backstories within tournaments and reasons as to characters being there has been around for longer then I remember. The simple solution is to either create a simple backstory or not to have one. I still don't understand why it is judges need to even consider why a character decided to participate in these events or as to their motives for doing so because it's a completely frivilious issue that nobody should lose points over. It's unnecessary and should remain optional. If it's within a tournament that focuses on combat then the judges should be focusing on just that; combat. The same problem occurred within the ToC when the rules were written or it was suggested that players try to create some sort of backstory with their characters and that it'd weigh in with the score. It's an unfair, arbitrary idea to make people try to come up with reasons that detract from their match as to some complex reason why they need to be there in order to balance story with combat, and is probably something that needs to be reviewed as to it's merits in future tournaments.

But on the same token, I'd like to understand why you'd want to participate in a tournament if you don't find your character up to the task in the first place? Everybody is different in how they approach a tournament, and I understand some folks are saying that you can win a tournament without actual combat but I wouldn't flirt with the idea if I were you. Most of the characters I've designed deal with close-quarters combat in some way or another because it focuses on my strengths and my ability to write out action. I also enjoy the idea of having my character take a knife and drag it across someone's carotid artery, but everyone's different. Instead of trying to play a character that is made to fit into every possible niche of Althanas, I'd recommend sticking to your strengths and that if you don't enjoy competing against players combatively then simply don't do it.

Another idea is to segregate different play styles with different characters. Keep Visla as a quest-oriented character, but make another character that is designed for some sort of combat to make it easier on you as a player/writer to fit into these tournaments if the option appeals to you. It's been done before and by a lot of other people over the years, and it works. Think about it.

I'd like to repeat what's been said by Caden that the Featured Quest is an event that can or cannot be combat oriented depending on how you choose to play it. It's been around for awhile, but now we're in the process of starting the next chapter on July 31st, which will be some time this week it looks like. If you don't want to participate in a combat-oriented tournament to get on the fast track with your character or whatever other reasons you might have, then I really urge you to take advantage of the opportunity of the FQ and make the most of it while it's still around.

EDIT: I also liked the idea of a writing competition like you suggested earlier, but with an addendum. Instead of trying to come up with IC reasons for characters being there, just write and forget about trying to fit it into some over-arching idea or construct around your character or the event itself. Have two people be given a topic and they can write on it within the time limit (probably with two different threads) and then have the threads judged. The person who better writes according to the topic wins and advances. Hell, maybe your characters don't even need to be in it, maybe you could write it with any setting or any character you choose if it manages to play to your strengths. Just a thought.

Either way, if this idea comes up on the chopping block as to whether or not to do it, I'm in full support of trying it out to see how people take to it.

[Visla Eraclaire]

To start, I think the way this topic is going has set things a little bit too much confrontationally (ironic?). I don't want to start a non-fighting vs fighting battle. I'm just saying, those who love fighting have a lot of avenues. Why not have a tournament based on writing on a variety of topics? I think given the alleged writing purpose of the forum, this would better test the ability of the participants than a series of IC duels.

Again, sorry.

Don't apologize for disagreeing with me. I'm not going to cry. I won't bother to address all your points, except to say that I think there's a difference between the TOURNAMENT having a sort of deus-ex-machina explanation built into it (Thaynes giving favors) vs having to advance such an explanation as part of my character (I've been geased to participate in the tournament).

I don't think the tournament system is AWFUL and INCURABLE and SUPER UNFAIR. Fighting tournaments are what Althanas wants, for the most part. I think one tournament that runs differently is fine.

And frankly, I think the current tournament IC explanations are pretty lackluster, so even my flimsy deity based one seems to make more sense than holding battle tournaments given the circumstances of the world. Given that fact, I conclude that tournaments aren't really that much an IC event and are mostly an OOC event. I think my tournament concept meets needs OOC. If its IC explanation is a little flimsy, oh well... it's in the same boat as all the other tournaments in that respect.

Moving on to other things that people have brought up.

The FQ: The FQ is great, but it is the FQ and not a tournament. Also, the FQ is essentially a war.

My Character: I really shouldn't have used myself as an example because I have no interest in explaining my character motivations. Yes, my character has tended toward greater and greater spellpower as I have leveled her. If I get the time, anyone who cares will see that to be a temporary trend.

Why do you want to do the tournament anyway? I like competition. I don't do much of it on here, and I'd like to. It's as simple as that. I see no reason that we have numerous beatstick centered tournaments and not one like the one I described. If it's a flop, it's a flop. The Invitational was a flop and that didn't stop anyone

Cookie-Cutter Fighters My statements were not intended to suggest that anyone who wants to fight is a stereotype. Fighting happens to be a common feature in shallow characters, but it is by no means a necessary or sufficient factor. I would also like to give Bear Man massive bonus points for his Space Munity reference.

Multiple Characters This is an option, certainly, but I prefer to advance and tell a single story at a time. I'm aware this puts me in the minority. As a lot of people are mentioning, there are workarounds for this problem. I've been doing these sorts of things for years now (questing mostly, making second characters, not caring about the reason for the battle and doing it anyway).

One Final Note I'm always somewhat staggered by the resistance that some people put up against new ideas. I found nothing anyone's said so far offensive in the least, but Caden is talking about biting his tongue. What is so apalling about this idea that you have to bite your tongue? Worst case scenario for you: This idea happens, you don't participate.

The general recalcitrance of the forum is something I will never understand.

[Bear Man]

I would also like to give Bear Man massive bonus points for his Space Munity reference.

I was hoping that someone would pick up on the MST3K references.

And, just so that this post isn't completely off-topic:

While we're on the subject of a non-combat tournament, I personally think that a riddling contest would be mad cool. It fits into the fantasy theme very well (The Hobbit, or The Waste Lands, anyone?) and I think that gives a lot of opportunities for character development. I'd like to do that sometime, anyway. Heck, non-fighting battles sound cool to me in general. But seeing as I've never been in a tournament or completed so much as one battle thread, I really don't think I can say.

[Taskmienster]

Visla, your idea is F-ing brilliant. I’d like to work IC reasoning behind tourney’s, tie them into the regions and work hand in hand with developing them a little more so that people can get in them with reason.

I love the concept of the vignette style tournament. If you have AIM catch me on TheTaskmienster.

For all your talk of being more interested in roleplay than in combat, you seem to find great difficulty in coming up with a simple backstory. And it's a poor roleplayer or writer who hides behind the excuse of But my character would never do X...

If you’ve read anything that Visla’s written, you’d know that the character and the writer behind her are both continuity and plotline thick. It’s not an excuse, or fair to call someone a poor roleplayer, if the character wouldn’t realistically fit into something. I mean, scores are hurt when a character is developed for one thing and forced by the writer into something they don’t fit into.


On the note of the tournament that Saxon spoke of:

It was called The Adventurer’s Crown. Teams of 3-4 people were formed, and given missions per round. They were given a little more time to complete these missions than they would have been given had it been a battling tournament, but the result was the same really. Instead of fighting, the players were given complete creative control over the situation, and in turn were allowed to battle if they fit that or simply adventure and not fight if that worked for them. It was those groups writing quests for each round that made it different.

Had it been better orchestrated, in the long run it was a lot of inactivity and dropping that made it not work (what a surprised ), it would have been amazing. However, I don’t see why it couldn’t work. It was basically an event where everyone’s quests tied into a larger storyline that arched over the entire tournament structure. What people did in one quest was tied to how things happened in the next round with those that scored high enough to get out of the first round… and so on.

I wouldn’t be opposed to trying that one again, since I loved it, but had to drop it because a) 2 of the 4 people involved in that on my team dropped out, leaving just Lugh and Ciancth b) me (being Lugh) and Ciancth (my ex-gf) were both going to basic the next month so we couldn’t continue anyway.