Suggestion: Registration Guidelines for New Members and their Characters

[Ataraxis]

While I agree with you and understand your frustration, I was pretty sure just about everyone here is on your side of the fence. We want a better skill description system as bad as you do, and I've said that it's thanks to you and your actual fresh view of Althanas as a new member that helped jumpstart this whole movement to improve the forums, and to make it easier for new members to integrate into the IC and OOC community. My first post even stated that I don't wonder why people leave: it states black-on-white why I think they do and why these guidelines are being written in the first place.

I'm not sure if you've missed it, but these guidelines, if accepted, will allow you to re-register Vestagar exactly as you intended, with the mastery of all the core skills you wanted, if not more. The only thing we're not yet agreeing on (and not out of stubbornness, just out of trying to see everyone's point of view) is what descriptor system to use for skill levels.

The only reason I used the average/above-average system in the examples is because we haven't decided on what to change it for, yet. As you can see, these example characters have mastery of skills related to their concepts, and everyone has, to this point at least, agreed that they are adequate for level 0 profiles (outside of a few kinks). Once we decide on a system, though, I'll edit the examples to better reflect how the skills work.

This whole thing is to stop the shoe-horning you mentioned, so I'm a bit at a loss why you're mentioning this. If this does go through and we all agree on a function skill descriptor system, I don't think there'd be any problem left unsolved among those you listed. If there are, however, I am very sorry for being unaware of them, and would be glad to edit the guidelines to deal with them too.

Edit: Also, I'd be really happy if other people would contribute with Character Examples that I could edit into that post. If anyone wants to test out a battle-oriented character, I invite you to do so.

Edit #2: I added a pure combat character example. Express your agreements/disagreements with it freely! Also added a "Guidelines for Familiars and NPCs" section.

Edit #3 (@ Michelle): I changed example #2 a bit, but if you see the abilities as too strong, could you tell me why? I see them as essential for the character to work as intended, but with adequate regulations to make it a very fair character. I also added a pure-combat example, which pretty much amounts to Teric Bloodrose at, I think, level 1 or 2? With a few more advanced skills, granted, but that's the point of the guideline. And yeah, I do think that we aren't quite nearly as nauseatingly welcoming as we all used to be, which probably accounts for it. We're so few now, though, that it's pretty hard to keep ourselves from leaving.

Edit #4 (@ Kyle): Zook pretty much answered your question the same way I would have. If anything, I'd just add that you could view these as 'more or less' level 2-3 profiles with some discrepancies. Overall, they're no more likely to powergame than previous characters of those levels. Skills can be powergamed only one way: by writing them stronger than they should be when compared to the skill of an opponent. No matter what regulations you put in place, that's the kind of powergaming that can't be prevented since it basically ignores what's in the profile. It's special abilities that we should be more worried about, but we need to keep an open mind and let people write what they want, and help them out when they make their mistakes. Learning this way does have its merits, and people are less likely to complain and leave once they understand by having slipped, than when they are told not to do something without being told why.

Edit #5 (@ Dirks): Not exactly sure what you're advocating, so I won't comment for now. It does sound like it goes along the spirit of the Guidelines here, though. It might be too extreme, but maybe if you explain your point of view more we might see it differently.

[Shadai]

Ataraxis, I don't know you but I like you already, and that post wasn't intended towards your or anyone else who "gets" it. That bit of wisdom is for those people who still don't "get" it; an additional offer of clarity put in different words. I won't mention the names of those who I feel don't "get" it; but it is merely my hope that those who take up arms defending the current system know who they are and take something from that last post.

So please, do not take it as a personal attack.

It is just simply another view for those who (despite my shit musing on said subject, and your excellently well written plan) still cannot understand why the system needs to change.

[Zook Murnig]

Perhaps what we need to diffuse any confusion as to what our power level adjectives mean, is to completely abolish that part of our Realm of Greeting system. I'm not talking about just listing "Sword Proficiency" and saying nothing more. On the contrary. I'll provide an example using that skill below.

Sword Proficiency- MotherlickerX has been trained in the use of his sword and can readily defend himself from a small group of enemies at once. His combat style focuses on parries and thrusts, relying on his reach more than main strength.

This leaves no confusion as to what MotherlickerX is capable of as a swordsman. We already do this for spells anyway, why not expand it into the entire process? And for an example of a noncombat skill, I'm going to borrow from Shadai, as this is a good example that's been floating in my mind for the past few days.

Lock Picking- Vestagar has rudimentary knowledge of the workings of a lock, and given the right tools and enough time, he can spring a number of different types. (Proceed to list the types of locks he can or cannot break into reliably)

This gives a lot more leeway with skills, attributes, abilities, or whatever you want to call them, and allows for an approvals mod to still be able to say "Hey, I know you like your swordsmanship skill, but can you please take out that part where you can (in a crazy example) hurl your sword fifty feet to land in the chest of an enemy? It's a little much for level zero, but maybe at an update. Please and thank you!"

[Ataraxis]

I was thinking the same, actually. Basically I already use a skeleton of that system in the profiles for all of my characters, but the occasional “average/below-average” still does crop up in them sometimes. Here’s an idea I worked on after a lengthy discussion of what could work with Christoph, that expands on Zook’s proposal:

First off, we use adjectival descriptors that give a ball-park estimate, yes, but that are still better than the “average/below-average” system, because these word choices are to an extent much more self-explanatory.

Poor, Amateur, Neophyte, Intermediate, Journeyman, Advanced, Expert, Master, Genius, Legendary, Transcendent.

They’re always used in games for various skills and ranks, and we never really question them (not as much as we would if we saw above-average and the like instead, at the very least). However, even with these, it’s still not enough for real clarity, so Zook’s idea of normalized descriptions for each skill rank helps.

And I know, Shadai, that there’s not much sense in describing a skill a character sucks at, but the choice exists for people who want to focus on giving their characters skills that do start out poor, and work their way up. Otherwise, I generally agree. Quite likely, most people will give their starter characters skills that range from Neophyte to Advanced or Expert.

Here’s what I have. Naturally, it’s supposed to sound ridiculously masturbatory near the end:

Poor {Insert : Weapon Skill, Theft, Lockpicking, Stealth, Intellectual Field, etc.} – Basically no skill, or a passing technical understand of what the skill is. A poor swordsman would know not to hold the sword by the blade, and to keep the pointy end away from the body. A poor lockpicker would know you need something to pick locks with, and might have passing knowledge of tumblers. Someone with poor stealth stands out like a sore thumb and barely knows how to hide. Someone with poor engineering knowledge might have heard of this thing people call physics.

Amateur {Idem} – Has observed people use these skills, and possesses deeper knowledge of the mechanics and rules that govern the use of these skills. An amateur swordsman would know the existence of combat stances, would likely have tried to imitate them to a certain degree of success, but would certainly not be ready for a real fight. An amateur lockpicker would know what basic tools are used for the practice and a few types of lock mechanisms, and might have tried on a few. Amateur stealth would allow someone to know about the preferable places to hide, but would not be particularly inconspicuous. Amateur Engineers would know about the common terms like force, momentum, torque, and how to calculate some of those.

Neophyte {Idem} – This is where actual training in the skill begins. Swordsmen are introduced to the basics, and begin training regularly to have the kernels of the art carved into their muscles. They know the stances, and can perform them, but are still shaky. A neophyte lockpicker would be very decent at opening doors and chests with those big but simple locks on them, given enough time. You might actually not see a person who is a neophyte at hiding – not at first glance at least. Engineering knowledge at this level would be similar to junior high school.

Intermediate {Idem} – Like neophytes, but substantially better. They’re still rough and require training, but they could hold their own in a fight against people of similar rank, and might be able to fend off multiple attackers of lower rank. They would know about more complicated locks and different methods of picking them, and might know how to improvise tools. Someone with keen senses is very likely not to notice a person hiding with intermediate stealth. Senior high school mechanical physics for intermediate engineering.

Journeyman {Idem} – Same ‘one step up’ concept as ‘Intermediate versus Neophyte’, but they graduated from their apprenticeships. They could probably get decent jobs doing what they do.

Advanced {Idem} – They are even further along the path with either personal training or guidance from an expert or master – comparable to entering military training for a specific post, or beginning college education. Lockpickers of this level can tackle booby-trapped locks and get away unscathed, and do so in a relatively commendable time. You could probably be a trained patrolman and have to search all over a marketplace before finding someone with advanced stealth.

Expert {Idem} – Same ‘one step up’ concept as ‘Advanced versus Journeyman’, but they graduated from military training or college. They could probably get very good jobs doing what they do, or become well-praised teachers of the skill.

Master {Idem} – This is where people who know of you pick you out from the crowds because of how renowned you have become for your skill, if you run around social circles. At this point, you are considered the cream of the crop and are usually seen as the top of the pyramid, as far as the skills of a mortal (and long-lived races like elves and dwarves) go. Few are those who can rival you in this skill, and you can toy with groups of trained soldiers. Intellectuals would probably have the equivalent of a Master’s Degree at this point (or a Doctoral Degree if you want to stretch it as far as you can).

Genius {Idem} – Simply put, a rank that usually can’t be attained by hard work alone, but a combination of great effort and being gifted.

Legendary {Idem} – Is there a need to further describe your prowess? There are already so many songs and epic ballads about you that describe them so much more elegantly.

Transcendent {Idem} – A god exists within every swing of your blade, no barrier or seal stands before your nimble fingers, you can be seen only if you wish to be seen. You have so much more than a working knowledge and understanding of the universe, and it is quite than likely that the universe has suddenly found itself at a loss to understand you.

I would add "Divine – You ARE a God", but I think we all get it. I would like to hear if it sounds like a viable alternative to anyone, though. I could understand why some would be reluctant to go along with it, but I do think it allows RoG mods to gauge much more easily what these skill levels actually entail, and it helps the player choose the ranks for their character too.

[Taskmienster]

First, many members won't make that connection unless it's explained to them. Second, even after explained that it means "average for a soldier" or whatever, it still remains more ambiguous than it should be. What's an average soldier? An average American soldier is going to be much different than an average Ethiopian soldier. An average soldier in a Salvar lord's army (drawn from the citizens and trained a little) is going to be much different than an average Raiaeran soldier. That's why the system should encourage players to speak in terms of levels of training, and then give examples and comparisons. THEN the word 'average' could appear as needed. For example: "Swordsmanship: Advanced Proficiency; Character X is knows dozens of techniques and combat maneuvers and can hold his own against a newly inducted Raiaeran Bladesinger." Maybe give a little more information on what the character can do, but even that gives a far clearer idea than "Character X is an an above average swordsman."

That’s the nonsense that keeps “average” from being simple. It’s people overthinking it. I don’t think any concept is complicated until someone comes along to make it so. Plus, if I was a new member, would I even have an inkling about what a Raiaeran Bladesinger is? That’s specific, to the point where it’s more complicated, and as a brand new player to the site, without reading through every single almanac to create my simple warrior, I’m not going to know what to compare it to. I’m just going to compare it to the atypical fantasy soldier/mercenary or what have you.

The default should be letting the players do mostly what they want. Give friendly warnings, but then trust them to use common sense. If they don't, most others won't want to play with them, anyway. The system polices itself better than you might think.

If the “default” is to let the “players do mostly what they want” than what you’re asking for is free forum rp. And Althanas is not free forum. If the proposal was accepted, we’d be more free-forum than anything… and that would pretty much negate the necessity of exp, updates, levels, and whatever else is attributed to what makes Althanas what it is.

I know I said I liked the general idea, originally, but the more I see it being discussed and what’s being said… as well as examples of what a character would look like with this idea… I’m against it. I don’t like the free-forum expression of how the RoG would change, nor do I like the idea that those that have worked to be an expert with their skills, those that actually can do something compared to a level 0, are going to be useless characters now when compared to what new, never used, character that has yet to contribute to the site.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. First, this table is not listed anywhere in the "guides" to creating your character. This is what I was referring to as mysterious rules and made up regulation. Second, this table is great for soldier knowledge. How does this compare to a wizard's magical knowledge, a barbarian's ability to survive in nature, or a thief's ability to break in someplace? What, do we need to make tables for every possible skill?

It’s not hard, really. If it needs to be listed in a “guide”, I feel sorry for the people that would need it. It’s common sense. I can put it in a guide if you want, if that would make you feel better. Honestly though, look at what you asked… and then look back at what I said. Read a post before responding to it.

On that note, the skill scale in terms of average really doesn’t work with anything outside of skills, obviously.

That means that a wizard’s magical knowledge, Not a skill, doesn’t fit with the average scale. It’s like a general knowledge, like how to give first aid or cast a fireball. Barbarian’s ability to survive, is the exact same thing as what I just said. You can’t have an “average” ability to survive, because it’s not a skill it’s an ability, it’s like having above average strength… which we require people to actually write something about such as what they can lift/carry or 1.5x or 2x the average person their size. That adds a qualifier to an ability, “average” skill rankings is only for skills.

Funny, that former bit looks like you know the difference...

I’ll say again, “I'm not going to argue about what makes average to one person not average to another... because it's the same thing to me.” That is what I said then, that’s what I can use right now, because nothing about what I said is a change of position on the stance of average. I said what one person thinks is average compared to another doesn’t matter, because there isn’t a difference. They’re the “same thing to me”. As I put in the example of inept (sorry about the confusion) to mastered, there is no difference between anyone’s interpretation… because there really isn’t a lot of room to interpret anything differently… unless there is a confusion created from a person overly complicating the little aspects of the system, which seems to be the case more often than not.

If all you need is for me to list what the difference is for skills labeled as Average or Above Average, such as I did in that one post, then we don't need to change anything. I just need to clarify a very small thing that's apparently difficult to understand, and then we're all done with the issue.



@ Ataraxis: It doesn’t matter what you change the words to, it means the same thing no matter what.

[Christoph]

That’s the nonsense that keeps “average” from being simple. It’s people overthinking it. I don’t think any concept is complicated until someone comes along to make it so. Plus, if I was a new member, would I even have an inkling about what a Raiaeran Bladesinger is? That’s specific, to the point where it’s more complicated, and as a brand new player to the site, without reading through every single almanac to create my simple warrior, I’m not going to know what to compare it to. I’m just going to compare it to the atypical fantasy soldier/mercenary or what have you.

The problem is that average is far, far too easy to over-think Don't blame the people who over-think it. While the system that was the product of Zook, Ataraxis, and I has room for vagueness as well, it's still far less ambiguous than "average", and there's no need to include the qualifier "for an average X", especially when determining an average X is still almost impossible. Levels of training are more universally understood, and when combined with an example or two, it all becomes clear. I'll admit that Bladesingers were a bad example, but that's not really an issue. Let the player decide what they want to compare their skill to, whether to some traditional medieval soldier or some fantasy trope. Regardless, with that form, things will be mostly understood.

If the “default” is to let the “players do mostly what they want” than what you’re asking for is free forum rp. And Althanas is not free forum. If the proposal was accepted, we’d be more free-forum than anything… and that would pretty much negate the necessity of exp, updates, levels, and whatever else is attributed to what makes Althanas what it is.

I believe it's "free-form", but that's just me nitpicking. Furthermore, this proposal would not turn Althanas into the dreaded free-form RP forum. Not even close. Even with these new freedoms, starting characters would still have plenty of room to grow, improve, and gain power. New members would still want to improve -- they merely wouldn't be forced to slog trough four or more threads just to tell the lowest-tier story that they want to tell.

I know I said I liked the general idea, originally, but the more I see it being discussed and what’s being said… as well as examples of what a character would look like with this idea… I’m against it. I don’t like the free-forum expression of how the RoG would change, nor do I like the idea that those that have worked to be an expert with their skills, those that actually can do something compared to a level 0, are going to be useless characters now when compared to what new, never used, character that has yet to contribute to the site.

I don't even think you realize how elitist that sounds. "What? A new character can actually compete with a slightly less-new character? Heresy!" It's not like level one - three characters would LOSE anything; starting characters would just gain a little more freedom (let level 1 - 3 or 4 characters re-update if they're going to be upset -- things should even out by about level five). There might be a little irritation here or there, but nothing, NOTHING compared to the irritation felt by so many potential new members when they try to register a character.

I used to recruit all the time. I know first-hand that overly-strict character restrictions are why so many prospective members either don't bother joining or don't stick around. Can you even imagine my frustration at putting forth so much effort to bring life to a site that I cared about a great deal, only to be met with the same complaint almost every single time? And what am I supposed to say to them? "Well, you'll be notably better than, uh, than a peasant. But! If you do four or five threads, which will take a handful of months, you can level up and get a little better." Yeah, that doesn't work. Rules are to enhance fun. The current restrictive registration rules do the opposite of enhancing fun, and should thus be changed. This proposal fits the bill very well, and I'm saddened by your opposition to it.

[Letho]

The way I see it, Althanas is about as much a writing forum as it is an RPG. As such, going from zero to hero is what it's all about and that's the way it should stay. It's in that middle ground between a place with extremely strict rules that looks more like a game and a place where you can write what you want which is free form (or free-form :P). Some people don't like that. Well, guess what, there will always be people that won't like the system, regardless of how much we tweak it. I don't think we should shatter the balance that we have right now just so we could cater to those (potential) few who prefer something a bit different.

Beside, changing restrictions for level zero characters is somewhat of a slippery slope. Next thing you know, people are asking why can't they have a prevalida sword from the get go, or enchanted full-body armors made of titanium, or a staff that can burn half the forest. I exaggerate, I know, but if we start allowing people to get stronger characters because they justify it in their history, what's stopping them from asking the same with equipment? his father left him that sword, after all, so why can't he have it?

And then also you have level one people who worked hard to get there only to see people fresh to the site as strong as they are. Sure, we could let them do an update, but then level two gets pissed at level one. And so on, and so on. And then suddenly the balance of the entire system is out of whack. And then soon enough someone says, hey why don't we just switch to free-form and get rid of all the clusterfuck.

To hell with that. The system is fine. Perhaps it does lack some clarity and definition when it comes to what exactly is a strength of a level zero, but we can fix that by clarifying it and outlining it in the RoG. I'm not against one of this progression charts, to be honest, but only so we can outline the restrictions more clearly for those who are new and maybe don't understand how things work here.

[Taskmienster]

You beat me to it Letho, but I was about to just quote something you said in a different thread that made a lot of sense there as it does here::

It was a rudimentary example that shouldn't have been taken word for word, but it obviously was. All I know that back when I was starting out Letho was not very different from that very example, save for an additional combat ability that improved him stats a bit for a short while. All he had to his name was a sword, a breastplate, a pair of gauntlets and the clothes on his back. Yet in my first finished thread I wound up tackling a huge Chimera beast with Sword-for-hire, and in my second Letho fought a whole bunch of mercenaries on two occasions with two more people on his side, and he held his own in both cases. Got his ass kicked a bit, but held his own. So while he was not 'powerful' (and no character at level zero should be, regardless of what anyone says), he was, dare I say, competent?

EDIT: On a side note, my girlfriend just said something to me that made me laugh. She said "The site is about writing, and showing that you can write and develop a story and a character... about progressing your writing style and your story as you go. It's not supposed to be where you start a super powerful character from the start on some gaming site, where you can beat anyone else in a battle immediately. It seems that everyone's focused more on the amending the rules to get more from the start, and not focusing on being active and learning to write better."

On that note, even in RPG's your character starts with little to nothing. I played WoW for a while, and I know that when you start with a level 1 character you still have to do at least 4-5 piddly quests so that you can level and become stronger. Even in MMO's, which doesn't require you to write anything just follow the mindless path they put before you, you don't get to start out with some beast of a killing machine. Like everything, in games or on Althanas, there is a transition from a start to the ultimate conclusion. The difference is, when a person hits level 80 on WoW, they can just goof off doing the same thing all day, every day. On Althanas, a person get's to chose when their character's story is done, and they can do it however they want. I think that, at the heart of everything, is what makes Althanas both a writing forum and a game, one that is much better than mindless pixilated undead that I shoot with a bow for four hours to get 3 copper from each.

Restrictions are there, sure, but they're present in any game you can chose (Althanas, WoW, Warhammer, DnD, ect.) I personally don't like the way that DnD works, because I don't get it probably, but if someone sat down to explain it to me or there was a more concise way of clarifying what was going on, I'd undoubtedly be interested. Clarification is all that is required to get people, that are truly interested to begin with, to join in and play along. DnD doesn't need to change the entire way a new character is developed, neither does WoW, Althanas, or any other form of entertainment that people want to follow because the rules are there to make them unique. If a person has question, they can be asked easily enough, but if a person doesn't like the system, they simply won't play anyway.

It's the reason I don't write on free-forum sites, don't play WoW anymore, and things like that. Because I didn't care for the rules, so I just stopped playing. If they had changes, I might have liked them, but then the people that like the way the rules already were would then complain. This is a unique place, with its own specific qualities, and to change that could bring in new members, but could also shoo away old members. I know I wouldn't want to change every profile I have, and I wouldn't want my hard work over the years to suddenly mean nothing because of some change in the way the dynamics of the site (and what brought me here in the first place) happened.

[Letho]

Another thing, a sort of a surefire way to defeat some more difficult obstacles even if you fell your character is "weak". Work with other people. Two level zeros with different proficiencies working together can beat a significantly stronger opponent. And writing with other people is in my book the strongest aspect of this site.

[Christoph]

The way I see it, Althanas is about as much a writing forum as it is an RPG. As such, going from zero to hero is what it's all about and that's the way it should stay. It's in that middle ground between a place with extremely strict rules that looks more like a game and a place where you can write what you want which is free form (or free-form :P). Some people don't like that. Well, guess what, there will always be people that won't like the system, regardless of how much we tweak it. I don't think we should shatter the balance that we have right now just so we could cater to those (potential) few who prefer something a bit different.

Wait, what? I didn't realize that every story should be a coming-of-age or some variation on the 'farm boy becomes a hero' cliche. Want me to list novels where the major protagonists started out as rather formidable? Furthermore, please stop using strawman arguments. Nobody is advocating, "let players write absolutely whatever they want". We're advocating, "keep some rules, but ease up on restrictions so new players have more freedom to write the stories they want right away, while still offering the path of level advancement that we all know and love." We've all heard your, "If they don't like it, they can go elsewhere" party line. Guess what? They DID. That's why this site is dying. And do you honestly think allowing more freedom to starting characters will drive away everyone who likes the 'game aspect'? That's madness.

Beside, changing restrictions for level zero characters is somewhat of a slippery slope. Next thing you know, people are asking why can't they have a prevalida sword from the get go, or enchanted full-body armors made of titanium, or a staff that can burn half the forest. I exaggerate, I know, but if we start allowing people to get stronger characters because they justify it in their history, what's stopping them from asking the same with equipment? his father left him that sword, after all, so why can't he have it?

That's why, at LEAST for starting characters, equipment and abilities should be counted in the same pool, if you would. If a starting character wants to give up a fair amount potential abilities for a fancy family sword, then why the hell not? Keep it within reason, and who will it hurt? And beyond that, I trust in the staff's capability to set reasonable guidelines to prevent the feared slippery slope.

And then also you have level one people who worked hard to get there only to see people fresh to the site as strong as they are. Sure, we could let them do an update, but then level two gets pissed at level one. And so on, and so on. And then suddenly the balance of the entire system is out of whack. And then soon enough someone says, hey why don't we just switch to free-form and get rid of all the clusterfuck.

You vastly exaggerate the potential fallout. If a level 1 player is upset, let him update. Same for level two and three. Find an ideal level, probably around five, for things to even out. It's not that difficult. It will not destroy the balance of the site and lead to chaos and anarchy. And I highly doubt that allowing more freedom to starting characters while still keeping the fundamental structure of the system the same cause a collapse of the game system, leading to free-form. I will repeat, nobody is advocating free-form Althanas.

To hell with that. The system is fine. Perhaps it does lack some clarity and definition when it comes to what exactly is a strength of a level zero, but we can fix that by clarifying it and outlining it in the RoG. I'm not against one of this progression charts, to be honest, but only so we can outline the restrictions more clearly for those who are new and maybe don't understand how things work here.

All evidence points to the system NOT being fine. If the system were fine, I’d have had no trouble recruiting tons of good members back in the day, instead of losing 85% of them, many good writers, because of the starting character restrictions (not to mention the elitism that has spawned from it).

EDIT: On a side note, my girlfriend just said something to me that made me laugh. She said "The site is about writing, and showing that you can write and develop a story and a character... about progressing your writing style and your story as you go. It's not supposed to be where you start a super powerful character from the start on some gaming site, where you can beat anyone else in a battle immediately. It seems that everyone's focused more on the amending the rules to get more from the start, and not focusing on being active and learning to write better."

Again, this proposal would not let people start with "super-powerful characters". They're more on part with the current level 1.5 or so. The vast majority of current level 2s easily outclass them. If level 1-4 get irritated at losing their precious advantage, then let them do updates to bring them up to speed.

On that note, even in RPG's your character starts with little to nothing. I played WoW for a while, and I know that when you start with a level 1 character you still have to do at least 4-5 piddly quests so that you can level and become stronger. Even in MMO's, which doesn't require you to write anything just follow the mindless path they put before you, you don't get to start out with some beast of a killing machine. Like everything, in games or on Althanas, there is a transition from a start to the ultimate conclusion. The difference is, when a person hits level 80 on WoW, they can just goof off doing the same thing all day, every day. On Althanas, a person get's to chose when their character's story is done, and they can do it however they want. I think that, at the heart of everything, is what makes Althanas both a writing forum and a game, one that is much better than mindless pixilated undead that I shoot with a bow for four hours to get 3 copper from each.

But few people enjoy doing those piddly quests before getting anywhere. Furthermore, Althanas isn't WoW. We're here to write stories within the structure of a game. Therefore, it makes sense to let characters start at a place where they can do more than kill rats in the sewer or best peasants in combat -- because we're here to write good stories. Beyond that, the system would stay the same. There would still be that progression from start to super-awesome conclusion. This would just give new players an easier time of it. Is that really so bad?

It's the reason I don't write on free-forum sites, don't play WoW anymore, and things like that. Because I didn't care for the rules, so I just stopped playing. If they had changes, I might have liked them, but then the people that like the way the rules already were would then complain. This is a unique place, with its own specific qualities, and to change that could bring in new members, but could also shoo away old members. I know I wouldn't want to change every profile I have, and I wouldn't want my hard work over the years to suddenly mean nothing because of some change in the way the dynamics of the site (and what brought me here in the first place) happened.

What, shoo away all three old members? I mean, seriously. A number of old members are already advocating this proposal, and I highly doubt that any would leave just because those dastardly level zeros become a bit more powerful. The core system that we all love will stay the same. I cannot stress this enough. It's really not that much change. It's absolutely no fundamental change. It's just... tweaking. Often, some tweaking is better for everyone. New members get more freedom and don't feel stifled, old members have an easier time roleplaying with newbies without feeling like the level 0's can't do anything, and the core structure of the system remains the same. Everybody wins!