What do you know about Althanas 2.0?

[Max Dirks]

On January 2nd, 2011, Althanas turns 10 years old! In the play-by-post world, that's nearly an eternity. The mere fact that the forum has survived this long is a true testament to the dedication of its staff and the loyalty of its players. I can't begin to thank you all enough for everything you've done.

That said, 10 years is an awfully long time in the play-by-post world, especially for a site that hasn't seen much major fundamental change since its inception. Think about it. Some of the systems created at the very beginning of Althanas, like the judging system and the bazaar, have endured for all 10 years (though popularity of those systems has been through peaks and valleys). In contrast, other systems have been modified so many times they have become almost a convoluted "old guard." No amount of modification can "fix" these systems, but we've refused to get rid of them because they've always been there.

Enter Althanas 2.0, the Althanas reboot. We've got 10 years of experience behind our belt. We know what's worked and what hasn't. Althanas 2.0 is the long awaited excuse to start fresh by eliminating those "broken" systems and developing new ones. There are two long term goals for the reboot. The first is to bring in a younger crowd. Whether you favor Althanas as a creative writing workshop or a game, there's no way to lose with an influx of new faces. Veteran writers get to encourage young writers. Veteran gamers get a whole host of new gamers to smack around. The second goal is to simplify the site. Some things are so detailed on Althanas that veteran players can't figure them out. If they do figure it out, they are afraid to make any permanent changes to the site. Seriously, when was the last time (outside of an FQ) that a run of the mill character played by a non-moderator made its way into canon? I can count the number on my hands. So those are the goals: (1) to bring in new, younger members and (2) to simplify the site.

Let me add that Althanas is not dying. These changes aren't to "save the site" or any of that nonsense. Unique hits to the site are up from three years ago. It's just that FST and OOC chatter has decreased tenfold in that time frame and that's why post count might seem lower than usual.

Anyway, that's enough bantering. Let me get to my point. Everything will change by January 1, 2010. EVERYTHING. But it starts right here with you. The moderators have good ideas floating around. Some changes have already been decided, but the vast majority haven't. So this is your forum. This is your opportunity to tell us what works and what doesn't. This is your opportunity to pitch new ideas or revive old ones. Anything goes. I will say this though: if you criticize an existing system, provide a solution or an alternative to it. Don't like the bazaar? Think it should go? Then through down a detailed plan for an alternative way to get your items. Be constructive and be optimistic.

For the record, the moderators have been instructed to stay out of this thread. This is for the players to brainstorm. Have at it.

[Zook Murnig]

Off the top of my head, one thing stands out that's been keeping a really great region from being used to the fullest extent. Fallien's built-in defense against writing, the Exit Pass. Honestly, I know it's as simple as saying that your character went to a lot of trouble to get the Exit Pass, but that little bit of deterrent is enough to turn aside most potential use that the region could receive.

The xenophobia of Fallien is a good thing. The Exit Pass needs to go, however. The Outlander's Quarter needn't be a enforced in-universe as the place where non-natives live. It could, rather, be a ghetto where such people gather simply to protect themselves from the religious and cultural persecution of the general populace (much like the black, latino, jewish, islamic, gay, etc. communities in most major cities).

I may come up with more stuff at a later date.

[Atzar]

I'm not sure what you guys have done so far where the judging rubric is concerned. With that said, I'd like to see some of the categories tinkered with a little bit if you haven't done it already.

Particularly, I don't like Continuity as it is written. If a character's past has no influence on the story at hand, then the writer shouldn't need to force it into the thread. I'd change the name to "Storyline" or "Plot" or something like that, and have it just be a breakdown of the quality of the plot itself as seen by the judge - favoring originality, creativity, etc. So basically what Continuity is right now but without the unneeded emphasis on background. Include history as a criterion where the story demands it, but don't emphasize it as the main point of the category.

As far as Technique goes, do away with it entirely. Let's be honest here: none of us are editors. None of us have the practiced eye that this category requires. None of us have the time to read a thread three or four times specifically for this stuff like an editor would. So let's not pretend. As far as replacements, I'd throw in 'Style' as a suggestion - a catch-all category that takes into a account a writer's flair, command of the English language, and "it" - that flavor a writer has that makes his work fun to read, even if you might not be able to put your finger on the technical reason for your enjoyment.

Take out Clarity. Half of it is Mechanics, the other half is the rest of the rubric. It ends up being redundant. As far as how to replace these points on the rubric, I'd support throwing them into Wild Card, and making that worth 20 out of the 100. It would reflect that the most important thing about writing is the enjoyment of the writer and reader, and in general I trust the judges to be unbiased as usual with this extra power.

Or for a more radical solution, let the writer determine that extra 10 points himself. It would represent how much fun the writer had in creating and completing the thread. It would require taking players at their word on this - some might be inclined to boost their own score, but I hope that we as mature players can resist this temptation. Still, I think it would reflect the most important aspect of writing, and that's whether or not the writer had fun writing it. It may or may not work. I'll let you guys decide that.

I think that's about all I have to say about the rubric. I'll come up with more as I think about it.

[Zook Murnig]

Honestly, as far as Technique goes, I don't just use that for literary techniques and devices. When I was judging, I tended to use that for particularly good turns of phrase, interesting uses of wording, and, above all else, well done humor. There is technique to all of that.

For Clarity, I have to argue with you on that. Even with perfect Mechanics and great Technique, the events of a thread can be confusing as hell. Wasn't that guy standing on the other side of the table? I thought she was in Radasanth? When did this happen? Which person were you referring to with that line?

On a completely different line of thought: Perhaps an incentive for veterans to write with, and provide advice for, newbies? I was thinking that, either just in the newbie section or on the whole site, we could provide a bonus to gold when, using OOC tags, a writer offers friendly and helpful advice to their partner. Not a huge bonus, but maybe counting the thread as if it had an extra writer for the purposes of calculating gold?

[SirArtemis]

One thing I really like is the Auction House system. I enjoy seeing a new item every week and seeing whether or not it'd be something I wanted to bid for. This also sometimes can spark a really good idea for a quest where the writer earns a similar item that way.

Tweaks to the system that I would recommend is creating a subforum for the Auction House by itself. Every week, whoever is in charge can post the name of the item as a new thread along with a format for the time frame.

E.G.
The Wishing Wand (10/9-10/16)

This would allow you to break up the single, long thread that exists now, and clean it up more. Then, at the end of every week, you can lock the auction and leave it in the forum so that people can easily browse past items for ideas.

There is also something I've seen on another forum, but I'm not sure how it would go coding wise. Basically, I would like a "Auction House Idea Submissions" thread. However, all posts that are made by users are hidden, except to moderators. This would make it so that moderators have a compilation of ideas all in one place. You could also do a reward system, such that if an idea is used that a user submitted, they get a small reward, maybe a bit of exp and/or gold for their contribution. Personally, I'd find it exciting to watch as an item I suggested turned out to be a high-demand item and sparked a good thread.

______________________________________________

Another thing that I was thinking about is the Bazaar. From what I know (which isn't much to be honest), if you have the money, you can buy almost anything from the Bazaar. I mean... except something like adamantite?

Anyways, what I think would be fun is to change the system slightly. Allow for the current system when people want to buy simple items. For example, you want to buy some normally smithed items, or some general goods, or what have you. Sure, quick exchange of money like in the real world.

But what I think would be REALLY fun is if you had some Bazaar mods who were basically co-writers in shopping threads. Imagine this for example. Say you have 3 Bazaar mods and someone wants to get some enchanted magical maces. From a story I've read, I'll use the example that you have one mace that applies an oil to a target upon impact, and the second mace, when striking a spot that the first mace struck, causes an explosion.

You could then have one of the Bazaar mods enter and do a bit of an intro as an NPC. You could introduce it maybe as a local legend, or that you need to gather the materials for it, and then proceed to write a quest out with the Bazaar mod and the writer who wants that new item in order to work and earn that new item. I know that you can just as easily write out a solo thread for something like that and hope that your score is high enough to earn you that high quality item, so the purpose of this is to give you more leeway. Say I wanted an adamantite shortsword that had xyz enchant and it was very powerful. I would need quite the score to earn such a wonderful weapon. So what writing in the Bazaar would do is to allow a writer, while writing with a Bazaar mod, to create a story that comes with a bit of a "catch." That catch being that because you produced this thread in the Bazaar, you can NOW use money from your inventory that you have earned in previous thread to compensate for the score that you may not have achieved.

Honesty, I'm sure that to a certain extent, mods already do that when judging a thread and the spoils are a bit much, and they just take out of their coffers to compensate for the difference. I'm not sure if this actually happens. I know mods take out from the rewards to give spoils, sometimes awarding no gold. However, another BIG benefit of doing this system rather than writing it as a solo is that hopefully, these Bazaar mods are talented writers and can HELP the other writer strengthen their own writing in order to achieve that higher score they want.

Just a spur of the moment idea.

[Christoph]

I agree with Atzar on substance (to a point), but I don't think that category names necessarily need to be changed in order to shift their focus and how they're gauged.

As for the Bazaar, I think a great way to simplify the site is to remove it entirely. It's an amusing gimmick sometimes, but nothing more. I would just get rid of it and make a character's gear and wealth another character trait, just like skills or physical attributes.

And that's all I have for now. Sorry, no huge post from me. =p

[Atzar]

Honestly, as far as Technique goes, I don't just use that for literary techniques and devices. When I was judging, I tended to use that for particularly good turns of phrase, interesting uses of wording, and, above all else, well done humor. There is technique to all of that.

Seems like you're one of the only ones. Maybe I'm not giving the judges enough credit on this one. If it's common practice to judge it like this (which is basically exactly what I want and was trying to convey), then leave it alone.

For Clarity, I have to argue with you on that. Even with perfect Mechanics and great Technique, the events of a thread can be confusing as hell. Wasn't that guy standing on the other side of the table? I thought she was in Radasanth? When did this happen? Which person were you referring to with that line?

To me, that's can all be covered in Mechanics or Setting. When I judged, if I didn't know where you were, you were getting docked in Setting. If I don't know who a line is referring to or who is saying a particular line of dialogue, that's Mechanics. Clarity basically just gave me a mechanism to fuck you over twice for the same mistake. It was typically the hardest category for me to evaluate because of that, mostly because it was always tough for me to decide whether I felt you'd already been punished enough for the mistakes you made.

I understand that categories are going to be linked to an extent, but I don't think they should be redundant. Clarity, to me, is redundant.

On a completely different line of thought: Perhaps an incentive for veterans to write with, and provide advice for, newbies? I was thinking that, either just in the newbie section or on the whole site, we could provide a bonus to gold when, using OOC tags, a writer offers friendly and helpful advice to their partner. Not a huge bonus, but maybe counting the thread as if it had an extra writer for the purposes of calculating gold?

I don't know about this. If the new player asks for help, then by all means, go for it. I'd rather the vet not get carried away with the advice simply for the extra cheese, though - or try to ram it down their throats whether they want it or not.

"Take it. Take it! TAKE IT! YOU KNOW YOU WANT IT, SO TAKE IT!!!"

Putting myself in their shoes (or at least trying to), I'd understand the goodwill behind the mechanism but ultimately wouldn't use it. I think excessive tips would become irritating and overwhelming, helpful or not. I also find that some of the advice given by people is subjective, biased, and occasionally even wrong.

Since I'm sitting here arguing with myself more than I'm arguing with you, I'm going to go ahead and abstain on the grounds that I don't even know what the fuck I think.

[Fatina]

As for the Bazaar, I think a great way to simplify the site is to remove it entirely. It's an amusing gimmick sometimes, but nothing more. I would just get rid of it and make a character's gear and wealth another character trait, just like skills or physical attributes.

I really like the Bazaar though, even if it does take literally years for a thread to get completed there. But that's mostly under-staffing. I would actually rather have it built upon rather than eliminated. I sort of like Artemis' idea.

[Lord Anglekos]

Don't. Take away. The Bazaar.
To me, it's been one of the most constantly interesting places to visit; no matter who goes there, no matter what someone buys, the Bazaar is a threshold for story lines just waiting to be born. No matter what anyone says, that place is something magical; that little "umph" that separates Althanas from other would-be post-by-play RPG's out there. Sure, you can quest for better items than you can usually find in the Bazaar, but who cares? Going to a shop, and looking for better equipment is an essential part of role playing games.
Perhaps, one of the reasons I love the Bazaar so much is that I think of it as an actual dimension; a world, separate from the world. Has anyone read "Myth Adventures" by Robert Lynn Asprin? Well, for those who haven't, they too had a 'Bazaar'; except for them, the Bazaar was an actual world. A dimension amongst dimensions, it was a place where creatures from all across the universe could come and bargain for, well, anything really. Spanning at least the size of a country, one could wander the Bazaar their entire life and STILL not see everything it has to show. My point being, the Bazaar made an ordinary, comedic book series extraordinary. A hidden gem.
So I agree with Fantina above me. Put more people on the Bazaar, even if they are unexperienced; the only way they're going to gain experience is through practice. Expand it; give more focus on using that gold we get rather than saving it up so that people have thousands, and nothing to spend it on. Or, perhaps, expand the repertoire; who says they don't have dragons for sale at the Bazaar? Eh? Eh?
Anyways, that's just my two cents.
For now.

EDIT: Oh, one more thing.
As far as the judging rubric goes, I have to agree with Zook and say I feel the judging rubric is perfectly fine for now. I feel that the 'Wild Card' is what you describe, Atzar, when it comes to writers judging themselves; perhaps we could put more emphasis on that? Well, in any case, I don't see it needing any changes. While this is a MMORPG, it is as much, if not moreso, a writing forum as well, and I personally don't want that to change in my elitist attitude.

But, then again, that's just my opinion. So who knows.

[Rayse Valentino]

I'm not sure what you guys have done so far where the judging rubric is concerned. With that said, I'd like to see some of the categories tinkered with a little bit if you haven't done it already.

Particularly, I don't like Continuity as it is written. If a character's past has no influence on the story at hand, then the writer shouldn't need to force it into the thread. I'd change the name to "Storyline" or "Plot" or something like that, and have it just be a breakdown of the quality of the plot itself as seen by the judge - favoring originality, creativity, etc. So basically what Continuity is right now but without the unneeded emphasis on background. Include history as a criterion where the story demands it, but don't emphasize it as the main point of the category.

As far as Technique goes, do away with it entirely. Let's be honest here: none of us are editors. None of us have the practiced eye that this category requires. None of us have the time to read a thread three or four times specifically for this stuff like an editor would. So let's not pretend. As far as replacements, I'd throw in 'Style' as a suggestion - a catch-all category that takes into a account a writer's flair, command of the English language, and "it" - that flavor a writer has that makes his work fun to read, even if you might not be able to put your finger on the technical reason for your enjoyment.

Take out Clarity. Half of it is Mechanics, the other half is the rest of the rubric. It ends up being redundant. As far as how to replace these points on the rubric, I'd support throwing them into Wild Card, and making that worth 20 out of the 100. It would reflect that the most important thing about writing is the enjoyment of the writer and reader, and in general I trust the judges to be unbiased as usual with this extra power..

I agree with all of this. The current rubric has certain literary standards that are ill-conceived and out-of-place. Put a real piece of work through the rubric and you'll end up with low scores.

Changing continuity to plot would be fantastic, for example. We have character sheets for a reason. If there's a pertinent reason to reference a past event or give adequate reasoning for a character's actions, then it would likely be in the thread, or at least a link to the previous iteration of the thread in the opening post. There is no chapter in a story that starts off with a summary of the last chapter.

I'd like to add not changing, but reconsidering Setting- Too often I see the words "I would've liked to see you make more use of the setting." This is just pure personal opinion and is not justification for a score value. To describe the setting to the extent that it requires in a particular instance should be enough. If the setting is a mere background to the story, simply to alleviate the image of a void, I don't understand forcing the author to 'creatively' use it every time. Read any book and you'll see- The setting is a backdrop, it's personality, it's part of the plot. Expecting everyone to be MacGuyver is a bit much.