On pedophilia

[Serilliant]

Those of you that have read my posts or are familiar with anything I have done will know that I am no stranger to controversial discussions. What follows is an interesting thought I had recently that I am just now drafting into a thesis. The topic may draw some ire, but I want to encourage all participants to be as heated and as free-thinking as they feel comfortable. Please attack and degrade my stance as much as you'd like, as I expect that none of the statements made in this thread, including my own, be made without the forethought of being properly defendable or to able to be willingly conceded. That having been said...

It's clear from an observation of sociological trends that those traits we most despise are those that we typically embody ourselves. I am sure you have all noticed in others that the aspects of someone's personality that they are quickest to point out and criticize tend to be those features that they also possess. I am sure you are also very familiar with the common notion that those most likely to be homosexual are those most feverishly against it (fundamental, hardcore conservative republicans, anyone?)

So allow me to draw a parallel. Few things draw more universal outrage and disgust than the announcement of a child molester. People are forced to keep themselves from hurling objects violently at the television screen whenever the news reports that one has been apprehended. "That sleezeball!", they shout. Further, when it comes to prison pecking order, pedophiles are frequently the first beaten, raped, and often killed. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, most prisons separate child molesters from every other criminal for fear that they would be brutalized by the other prisoners. Upon hearing this fact, people rejoice. "Good," they say, "a big Bubba should rape that pedophile every day until he dies!" I'm willing to bet that many of those reading this are agreeing with that sentiment as well.

So, then, if we follow the 'that which we hate the most, we hate because it is in ourselves' paradigm, might pedophilia be so universally hated because we all have pieces, albeit repressed and controlled pieces, of pedophilia within us? Now before you dismiss this notion as ridiculous, imagine this for a second: consider how many "jokes" we have about rape. Rape is a horrible crime and, as a result, we shy away from telling jokes making light of it. Sure, there is some tasteless rape-related humor, but for the most part, people simply refuse to joke about it. Yet child molestation, an equally terrible offense, carries with it several jokes. Most jokes, in fact, give the idea of wanting to commit acts of pedophilia. Go through this list and think about how frequently and in what a variety of contexts you've heard:

"If there's grass on the field, then play ball!"
"Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed"
"A little bit hairy, pop that cherry"
"Old enough to count, old enough to mount"
"What's the best part about making love to twenty eight year olds? There's twenty of 'em!"
"Hit it before puberty does"
"If she's old enough to crawl, she's in the right position."
...and so on...

Now of course, my claim is not that everyone who says any of the above are pedophiles. My point is that we feel a lot more comfortable joking about the topic and in a wider variety of contexts than we do about other items like rape. You'd probably be hard pressed to come up with a list of jokes pertaining to another sensitive subject, but I'm willing to bet that you either thought, "wow, that's a good one" or "I have a few to add to that list" upon reading the above.

My third point ties into my first about us universally criticizing child molesters. Look at the laws that have been passed regarding age of consent and other child sexual behavior laws. It is criminal for an 18-year-old boyfriend to have sex with his consenting 17-year-old girlfriend. If prosecuted and found guilty, he would be a registered sex offender for the rest of his life. Our law specifically states that an individual one day shy of their 18th birthday is less capable of making a decision about sex than that same individual the very next day. Think for a moment, too, about how quick we are to criminalize other non-criminal behavior. When I was six, I was afraid of the dark. When at the home of an adult male friend of the family, I requested that I sleep in his bed. In my six-year-old mind, there was absolutely nothing wrong with that. But under current laws, if it were released that he slept in the same bed as a six-year-old boy, he would most certainly be the subject of extreme investigation if not already arrested. Now sure, if a 40-year-old man abducts and rapes a 10-year-old girl, that's a crime and a rather heinous one at that. But in our fervor to "protect the children!", aren't we going a bit overboard?

Further, look at the modern conception of beauty. We as a culture idolize youth. A 39-year-old who looks to be in her 20s is commended for her beauty secrets. We literally mutilate our own bodies in order to erase signs of aging. Models are considered in their prime at age 18 and are considered "too old" at 22. How many times have you seen a billboard featuring a women in a provocative pose and wondered, "is she even 18?" As time goes on, we're demanding that those considered "beautiful" look younger and younger and younger. Now, granted, this does have some biological basis to it. Youth is a representation of virility, and a youthful appearance an extension of health. But how can we push the envelope on demanding that the ideal of beauty be as close to pubescent as possible while, at the same time, condemning even a watchful gaze toward a toddler, calling it a sex crime?

My conclusion is twofold and utilizes all of the above points to arrive at what I believe to be a logical conclusion. Claim 1 is that we all have elements of pedophilia within us, some are just better at controlling it than others. Claim 2 is that it is the contempt of our own internalized pedophilia that causes us to so harshly criticize known molesters and to be so quick to criminalize non-criminal behavior. Do I believe we should lessen the penalties for child molestation? No, I don't. What I do believe, though, is that we need to take a step back and realize that through our biological, cognitive, and social breeding, we are giving rise to a civilization that condones internalized pedophilia, and then punishes its manifestation. The system is backwards and based in internal hatred. There are three solutions. The first is to let our id run free and sexualize teen and preteen children as was done in ancient times. The second is to completely redesign our perception of beauty and start worshipping features of age rather than features of youth. The third and final -- and only realistic -- option is to understand the facts that I have presented and work toward a solution that stops our sensationalized view of pedophilia and focuses on punishing actual sex crimes, not the friends of youthful dark-fearers or Romeo and Juliet lovers.

[Storm Veritas]

I have to disagree with your argument at it's core. I don't think that we berate and attack people who have tendencies that are embedded in us, but rather things that (whether they lie dormant or not) are NOT in our understanding.

Child molesters, serial killers, animal abusers, terrorists who prey on the innocent. We absolutely LOATHE these people because their crimes are incomprehensible to us.

I don't necessarily hate the burglar, or even armed robber. You could precariously perch yourself in a similar spot - ultimate desperation, and the need may seem to justify the misdeed. It's a short-cut to income.

A crime such as pedophilia, however, is altogether different. We operate on a fear (or hate) what you do not know, and this is a perfect example. I couldn't fathom doing something like that, and I don't even understand why it would be done. I don't understand anyone who could be sexually motivated by a pre-pubescent. No, I do not think we are denying some primal urge. I think we ostracize those who are unlike us, and the fact that it helps protect the sound upbringing of children is a convenient co-pilot to this segregation.

As far as your stance on modeling forcing people younger, we seek flawless beauty, but also FERTILE beauty. Women that are young are biologically more attractive to heterosexual men; a young woman is more likely to be fertile and a potential mate to raise a mother. This generation is one of the first to delay average childbirth well into the late 20s and 30s for major segments of the population. Women in their forties still look very beautiful at times, but with age comes wrinkles and flaws - natural degradation yet still a question mark for fertility. Inherent doubt.

[Roscar Palidyne]

What is seen as right and wrong can change along with the times. Want to find something interesting? Take a look at Greek and Roman history. Especially in the Greek and early Roman eras, sexual relations between full grown men and boys was found not as taboo, but commonplace. Catholic priests going old school on those little kids, Roman style, biatch! Ahem, anyway, it's funny how society's taboos have a habit of 360'ing.

Oh and if you people want proof of the sexualization of young people nowadays, all you have to do is work at an amusement park with water rides. Girls, on the average, will appear to be 18, but are more along the lines of 15. I actually thinkg we started a game guessing how young the girls actually were. It's...kinda scary sometimes.

[Storm Veritas]

Especially in the Greek and early Roman eras, sexual relations between full grown men and boys was found not as taboo, but commonplace.

What is your source on this? On the History Channel I saw a special on the Caesars that stated when Tiberius (if memory serves) held the throne he was chastised severely for his affairs with youth.

[Vorin]

Pederasty is a mostly Greek thing that many Romans looked down upon, just for reference. And while common place most people kind'a kept it on the lowdown, even in ancient Greece.

[Chiroptera]

In a way, your argument holds water, but the motivation for hatred of pedophilia because of similar feelings can't be considered a rule. It comes down basically to the purpose of sex. In some cultures, 12 and 13-year-old girls are married to older men to be their wives. This is more than just getting to have sex with a kid, it's a job as a wife. While I don't approve of arranged marriages at that young age, such sentiments are understandable.

Pedophilia, on the other hand, is repulsive. If you were to have sex with a six year old, the purpose of that intercourse would be to make you feel good, regardless of how it affects the child. Not even getting into the medical aspects, think of the psychological damage. No kid who was molested as a child can possibly be unaffected by such an act. I am outraged that anyone could be so selfish merely for their own pleasure.

Sorry, I don't have sexual fantasies involving little kids, but I hate pedophilia. I can't say I hate pedophiles because I don't know any. But when I look at some of the kids I babysit for, and I think that somebody might try to hurt them . . . it makes me very angry.

All that to say, I disagree with your first claim. I would never and could never sexually molest a child. The thought of it makes me nauseous. But I still hate pedophilia.

[Roscar Palidyne]

Well I wasn't so sure about the Roman part, but I know the Greek part was right. Crazy liberal Western Civilization teacher. That's ok, the Romans have plenty of other downfalls, like Coliguela and Nero.

You're right about younger females looking more fertile to males. The problem is, women aren't fully physically ready to be pregnant until they hit about 21, 22 (somewhere around there, if someone has a source check me on that). And yet it's amazing how many girls I saw in high school with pregnant bellies.

And yes, I think we all agree with you when you say that pedophilia is a horrible thing. But here's a question: Do you guys think that it is a medical disease involving mental imbalance, or a premeditated crime?

[Storm Veritas]

Do you guys think that it is a medical disease involving mental imbalance, or a premeditated crime?

Both.

Heterosexuality is a mental imbalance, wired differently than homosexuality. Perhaps it is a combination of nature and nurture, but I am not qualified to lead that discussion (not that I'm qualified here, but someone else asked for my juvenile opinion). I think that just like heterosexuality, the attraction to children is something that is inborn / founded in pedophiles. I don't think they CHOOSE to be inclined to be attracted to children, they just are.

At the same time, pedophilia is DAMAGING to children. Sex with children isn't consenting, regardless of what anyone can tell you. It is manipulation - predatory work, and will hinder the sociological development of children. Because of this, pedophiles HAVE to suppress their urge. It is a mandate, not an option, and if they cannot force themselves to abstain from their biological inclination, they are a danger to society and must be quarantined from those they may bring harm to.

[LordLeopold]

Serilliant, you're trying pretty hard to justify something...

[Molotov]

I'm not really going to get into your conclusions because I feel that individual laws on pedophilia vary from state to state and country to country, and some are much more reasonable than others. However, there is one thing I find to be slightly problematic with your general thesis.

If we as people hate things that are "part of all of us," it seems odd that we only hate pedophilia. In the US, most people do not hate Christianity, though the majority of the population is Christian. Similarly, most people do not hate two arms or two legs or anything like that. Sidestepping the empirical problem of the fact that most clashes are between an in and out group, this could be a purely heuristic trouble. It seems to me if we're all latent pedophiles, we would have not created institutions prohibiting it unless there were other goals humans had that they sought to maximize (perhaps its merely a case where people only want to have sex with other people's children, so they want there to be laws to protect the kids of their own).

Thats just my initial reaction to your theory. If you have a response, I'd like to hear it.