Essence Of: Plot

[Karuka]

Hello Althanas!

We're back with Essence Of episode three! Keep answering my questions and responding to the podcasts and I'll start thinking you guys are enjoying this cast or something.

In this episode, Gnarl and Root and I discuss plot and the structure thereof. As always, your feedback is appreciated; I'll ramble on the mic as long as you guys keep inviting me back, so don't forget to check the question thread soon for next show's questions!

Without further ado, I present:

Essence Of: Plot

[Storm Veritas]

Loved this, it was a great listen. I agreed with your takes on most things, until Gnarl sort of rallied against endings where the protagonist FAILS, where I nearly started screaming at my screen. The perfect example for me here is the satisfaction rendered in "The Usual Suspects", a movie where the protagonist fails miserably in a wildly satisfying, incredible experience.

Great job!

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Loved this, it was a great listen. I agreed with your takes on most things, until Gnarl sort of rallied against endings where the protagonist FAILS, where I nearly started screaming at my screen. The perfect example for me here is the satisfaction rendered in "The Usual Suspects", a movie where the protagonist fails miserably in a wildly satisfying, incredible experience.

Great job!

This.

I'm actually sort of surprised at Gnarl for this. In the discussions we've had in the past he has always seemed to enjoy the types of endings that steer away from the cliche. Then again, that's not to say there is anything cliche about protagonists getting what they want either.

Enjoyable episode though nonetheless. Well done guys.

[Gnarl & Root]

Haha, BlackandBlueEyes said the same thing Storm.

Don't get me wrong, the bad guys winning, doesn't make it a bad ending. I think I maybe didn't explain myself properly. But, I don't like seeing a massive journey to feel I wasted my time by the end of it.

The Usual Suspects is a fantastic example of it done correctly, and its a truly awesome film because of how well its done. I never felt it was a wasted time.

And Shin is again right, I don't like a cliche ending, but don't think the good guy winning means is cliche, it entirely depends on how its done.

Sometimes there is a set way that stories go that has become cliche. I don't really enjoy those. But yes, I prefer a somewhat happy ending over a bad one, so sue me! lol

[Flames of Hyperion]

You're way too kind, Karu. In honesty I haven't finished a proper story in a while (particularly on Flames) so I'm slightly surprised that you still rate me so highly ^^. That said, I was expecting When Serpents Smile to come up sooner or later!

With regards to protagonist failure, I think the difference is in the nuance of the term 'failure'. Especially on Althanas, when the end of the story told in the thread is almost never the end of the character's story, the question (like in life) is what the protagonist takes out of the failure. Can you as the writer take your readers through the process of the protagonist picking himself up off the ground and gearing up for another fight? Did you at least leave a sliver of hope that your plot can be resolved in a satisfactory - not necessarily happy - ending? I think this was what Gnarl was trying to say; in fairness, he mentioned that he needed something to 'grasp on to', as opposed to a 'waste of time'. The couple of times I've written scenes where my protagonists perish in perceived failure, all hope lost, my other characters have always been around to pick up the pieces (i.e. leaving something behind for the next generation). In essence, I feel that it's only protagonist failure if you (and your other characters) allow it to be ^^.

Equally interesting to me - and you touched upon this with Maddy's AC Finals thread - is when a protagonist technically succeeds, but loses something crucial in the process (sometimes more important than the success). Nanashi in Dawnbringers was like that: he contributed to the defeat of Xem'zund, but had his entire soul, his motivation, his raison d'etre, shattered in the process. Five years of real time later (a year in-character), he's still wandering the wastes of Berevar clinging to the last shards of his purpose (mostly because I as a writer currently lack the skill and the story infrastructure to put him back together again).

I think we can all agree that these are examples of non-cliched endings, at least!

[orphans]

That was fun to listen to. Screaming at the sky is fun too though! Curious as to who the surprise guests for next time will be though! Not really much to say for myself I'm not entirely sure how my plots happen. Seems more like half and half of pantsing and plotting. Some days more plotting than others? I dunno. Usually starts out planned and then all the gerbils manage to run away.

[Karuka]

Loved this, it was a great listen. I agreed with your takes on most things, until Gnarl sort of rallied against endings where the protagonist FAILS, where I nearly started screaming at my screen. The perfect example for me here is the satisfaction rendered in "The Usual Suspects", a movie where the protagonist fails miserably in a wildly satisfying, incredible experience.

Great job!

I'd like to bring up Big Street again as an example of protagonist failure. Storm failed, Taische failed, and it can even be argued that Karuka failed. But it was an ending that, if I hadn't written it, I'd probably be hounding the writers to know what happens next.

[SirArtemis]

It's funny because what I got from Gnarl's comment about a satisfying ending wasn't that the protagonist has to succeed, but that the reader is left with some sliver of hope. What came to mind for me was 500 Days of Summer. He fails. He doesn't get the girl. She marries another guy. He feels played. He feels broken. And in the last scene of the movie, a woman introduces herself as Autumn. I loved that little ending. Things don't have to end well. But things ending with a positive 'outlook' of sorts are easier to handle. Even Nicholas Sparks books that are pretty much always tragedies try to have silver lining ending the books. Some sort of optimism or hope. That's what I got from his comment.

[Kryos]

Finally had time to sit down and listen. Good work guys. These are turning out very successfully.

[Rayleigh]

AP has been awarded to all participants of this podcast.