EU Referendum

[Flames of Hyperion]

Shin, just to say that I appreciate you taking the time to make those points (which I feel very strongly about as well), and that I mostly agree with you. I personally believe that a 2% majority on a 72% turnout isn't as clear a mandate as some of our politicians are making it out to be, but that might count as crying over spilt eggs.

I just feel the need to add that I'm thoroughly ashamed of the unthinking bigotry and ignorance displayed by some of our voters (the video you linked to may or may not be fake, but some of those who voted Leave have indeed explicitly stated that they didn't know what they were voting for / had voted Leave on 'false premises'), and especially of the reports of racist violence coming out of our country today.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Shin, just to say that I appreciate you taking the time to make those points (which I feel very strongly about as well), and that I mostly agree with you. I personally believe that a 2% majority on a 72% turnout isn't as clear a mandate as some of our politicians are making it out to be, but that might count as crying over spilt eggs.

I just feel the need to add that I'm thoroughly ashamed of the unthinking bigotry and ignorance displayed by some of our voters (the video you linked to may or may not be fake, but some of those who voted Leave have indeed explicitly stated that they didn't know what they were voting for / had voted Leave on 'false premises'), and especially of the reports of racist violence coming out of our country today.

Hit the nail on the head there, Flames. I've seen some disturbing media coverage of Polish people getting yelled at in the street and having racist literature posted through the door.

Of course, to those who it inconveniences, it never happened.

Seriously considering a move to Scotland before you inevitably go independant. The only country to have any bloody sense.

[jdd2035]

All right Shin, sounds like you're pretty pro immigration, that's a good thing. If it weren't for immigration a lot of people would not be able to escape tyrants. But tell me this, can you tell me which immigrant is part of the ISIS? What immigrant has actually been given a mission to bomb a subway unload a weapon in a bar full of people? What immigrant has smuggled in some sort of chemical, biological or nuclear substance, weapon, or drugs?

The people that are getting let in are from nations that have factions that have declared you as their enemies and have stated in no uncertain terms that they will sneak in their own people in through the refugee and immigration systems. It would be responsible for the politicians not to try and prevent their citizens from being harmed.

I don't mind people visiting my house but only when I let them visit.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

All right Shin, sounds like you're pretty pro immigration, that's a good thing. If it weren't for immigration a lot of people would not be able to escape tyrants. But tell me this, can you tell me which immigrant is part of the ISIS? What immigrant has actually been given a mission to bomb a subway unload a weapon in a bar full of people? What immigrant has smuggled in some sort of chemical, biological or nuclear substance, weapon, or drugs?

The people that are getting let in are from nations that have factions that have declared you as their enemies and have stated in no uncertain terms that they will sneak in their own people in through the refugee and immigration systems. It would be responsible for the politicians not to try and prevent their citizens from being harmed.

I don't mind people visiting my house but only when I let them visit.

Agreed, but we have to accept there will be risks with immigration. It's up to our security services to do the spade work to ensure that they can monitor as many threats as they can, and not up to us to persecute.

I'm more of an advocate of sensible immigration. That means not being xenophobic but also not allowing people from all countries to come over on a benefits holiday. Sadly the latter is more of a problem to us than any terrorism. It's no longer just the physical threat but also the generic hate and rhetoric that is created towards immigrants that spoil it for the majority who come here and try to do the right thing. People are looking at lazy benefit cheats (we have some homegrown ones too to be fair) and thinking "that must be ALL immigrants".

Today we have seen Polish people shouted at in the street, the same Polish people who work their fingers to the bone in our very short staffed fruit picking industries. Just as an example.

I would rather have a Polish guy working for me than a Brit. True story.

[Storm Veritas]

As an American, I feel like the borders / ISIS argument has been made here for years, and it's a futile effort. Here in the States, there have been multiple terrorist attacks (Boston, San Bernadino, Orlando) through fully naturalized citizens that could never be screened out without a full blockade. Boston was launched by Eastern Bloc people who only YEARS after full immigration announced ties to terrorism. San Bernadino was set off by muslims who showed no radical tendencies for YEARS before their workplace outbreak. Orlando was launched by a man who was not religious during his life, and only seemed to tie his attack to ISIS for attention and to raise the level of hysteria around a very horrible, concentrated attack on the LBGT community.

In short, fighting terrorism in 2016 is whack-a-mole, and you can't legislate ISIS away. I could argue we've been in the midst of World War III for 15 years, and it's not going to end soon. Attacking a single country won't help, and no single country can destroy this horrible threat while other warring or sympathetic countries will provide shelter (see Pakistan during the US invasion of Afghanistan as an example). Only a concerted effort by the WORLD at large will ever stop ISIS, and this secularization sought by Britain and the republican half of the US are big steps in the wrong direction.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

As an American, I feel like the borders / ISIS argument has been made here for years, and it's a futile effort. Here in the States, there have been multiple terrorist attacks (Boston, San Bernadino, Orlando) through fully naturalized citizens that could never be screened out without a full blockade. Boston was launched by Eastern Bloc people who only YEARS after full immigration announced ties to terrorism. San Bernadino was set off by muslims who showed no radical tendencies for YEARS before their workplace outbreak. Orlando was launched by a man who was not religious during his life, and only seemed to tie his attack to ISIS for attention and to raise the level of hysteria around a very horrible, concentrated attack on the LBGT community.

In short, fighting terrorism in 2016 is whack-a-mole, and you can't legislate ISIS away. I could argue we've been in the midst of World War III for 15 years, and it's not going to end soon. Attacking a single country won't help, and no single country can destroy this horrible threat while other warring or sympathetic countries will provide shelter (see Pakistan during the US invasion of Afghanistan as an example). Only a concerted effort by the WORLD at large will ever stop ISIS, and this secularization sought by Britain and the republican half of the US are big steps in the wrong direction.

Sadly Britain is made up of people who, for some reason, just don't get it.

I'm not saying everyone voted out because of immigration, but the large majority did. Others thought there would be economic benefits, others wanted not to have to bow to EU rules (some of which are admittedly ridiculous). However it still remains the case that the majority wanted to stem the free movement of immigrants from the EU and, as you've pointed out, it's all rather futile.

We might as well have voted out because we didn't like the colour of Angela Merkel's gimp suit. It's about as legitimate a reason as any of the others i've heard.

(It's black with silver studs, by the way, for those wondering)

[Tobias Stalt]

Democracy is the great lie in which the state gives its people the delusion that their opinion carries true weight.

If the majority didn't speak for you, and you are unsatisfied with the outcome, you're not the victim of racists, bigots, fools, or imbeciles, you're victims of the same broken system you vaunted in the first place. All the while you're crossing your fingers with the hope an even bigger government than the one that allowed you a voice quashes the final outcome and forces you into subjugation.

There is no tyranny greater than the one man inflicts upon himself.

[Christoph]

As an American, UK's membership status in the EU isn't my decision. That said, I understand why many voters in the UK don't like the idea of foreign bureaucrats passing down edicts that supersede British laws and may or may not have the UK's best interests in mind. Additionally, this vitriol toward older voters who supported Leave is silly. Does anyone honestly think old Brits got together and were like, "You know what would really f*&k up the youth?" It might sound crazy, but maybe the older generations just have more wisdom and experience.

Beyond that, I can't really discuss the issue in detail. I'm not in the UK nor Europe and I'm certainly not an expert on globalist economics. Granted, were I a betting man, I'd wager that most of the turbulence in the markets surrounding Brexit will sort itself out soon enough, if it hasn't already.

[Warpath]

It might sound crazy, but maybe the older generations just have more wisdom and experience.

Or maybe more irrational fear

[Philomel]

When people as me why I voted Remain I send them this video.

Also facts by Martin Lewis. Important thing to note that he makes a very big thing about no one knows what will happen if we leave.

For those commenting on the Britain is free-er thing, it deals with all the rights and things that the EU (and linked to that UN) decleration of human rights deals with. In Britain I will say politics is very different than in the USA, just please be aware that we come from a very different culture. We like our stricter gun laws (in general, I believe made after the Dunblane shooting), and the fact that our economy, laws, culture and history is so entangled into the EU then it is mental to break from the EU. It would be like the USA trying to break from the UN or NATO. Yes, tha tmay seem like a strange comparison to some, but it is that serious. Everything about our laws and history, going back to the mediaeval ages and before links to Europe, and all the various trade agreements. We made the EU in the aftermath of the second world war to prevent more giant wars like it...

Okay there is my small rant. I am not saying those who voted leave are bigots and racists, in general I do not think the vast majority of them knew what they voted for. They were coerced through the likes of Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson to vote for it, similar to how I imagine why so many people are voting for a man like Trump.