Workshop: When Fates Cross Paths

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Name of thread: When Fates Cross Paths
Name of Author: SirArtemis, Redford and Cards of Fate
Type of Thread: Quest
Thread Length: 24 posts
Feedback Rewards: (Post Length of Thread/10) * ((EXP Needed to Level)*0.05) EXP
Date Closed: 11th July 2017

Critique Guidelines:

1.) Standard rules for etiquette apply. No spamming or off-topic posts, no personal attacks or trolling. Focus on critiquing the thread, not the writer. Use constructive criticism and try to speak in terms of "strengths" and "weaknesses." For example: "Your story was strong, but the action seemed a little weak. Try using more adverbs to describe actions or use a thesaurus to spice up your word choice."

2.) Likewise, those who have asked for a workshop should take criticism gracefully. Use it to better yourself. These are not intended to offend or belittle, only show you opportunities to grow.

3.) If at any point you notice improper conduct, contact an administrator immediately. Bullying of any kind will not be tolerated. Arguing will also be regulated heavily. Polite, constructive debate is permitted within reason.

4.) In order to receive EXP, GP, and AP for your feedback (see Workshop Guide), a critique must be helpful, elaborate, and considerate. It is suggested that the review be at least 3 paragraphs and focus on strengths, weaknesses, and overall content. You may use the Althanas Rubric as a guide.

5.)Those that leave an exceptionally detailed review with plenty of constructive advice may be eligible for double rewards. This will be up to the posting judge's discretion. The authors of the thread may request the additional reward be given if they found a review to be particularly helpful. The request must still be approved.

[jdd2035]

So hi every body! This is going to be an incredibly easy workshop for me. All three of yall are veterans of writing and of Althanas in general so lets get started.

Story Telling: The three of you as said above are veteran story tellers. Each of you contributed to the over all story adding details to the setting. Further all three of yall used third person which made knowing who was doing what really easy and my mind didn't have to shift gears going back and forth from first to third person. Redford and SirAtremis especially did well establishing the story at the start not saying that Cards didn't contribute just saying it took time for you to get traction withing the story.

Character: To critique this is exceedingly difficult as you all have played your characters for so long that you know how to play them. There's no wavering in how your characters act in a situation unlike a new player/character tryiong to figure himself out. Each of your interactions were well written and thought out and felt natural .

Prose: Yeah I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole.

I were to complain about something. I'm not so much a fan of vulgarity. I use too much of it IRL but any more curse words just kind of turn me off a bit. It's a small hypocritical gripe but there you go.

Good story yall!

[Zook Murnig]

I'm working on reading the thread, but I feel like I need to suggest something now, as it really screwed up my readthrough.

Please link to the first post of a thread, and not the last page. I just read three posts of the last four, thinking it was the in-media-res beginning of the story.

[Eteri]

Instead of my usual format, I'm going to go on a post by post sort of commentary because I will read it post by post. Instead of the whole thread thrice over because its a big one. You will notice I didn't do it on EVERY post as I felt some posts didn't require commentary, or had elements where I felt like I'd be repeating myself. Hopefully this is alright.

If you have any further questions please flick me a message.



Here we go!


Post 1
Redford, strong intro. Flows really well. I like the way the scenery is somewhat described here, you didn't say "The ceiling was high!" You used Johns large stature, and an offhanded comment to make the reader aware of the high ceilings, subtle stuff like that I like

The only fault I have is this small section here

He took a step forward and smirked a little. It was impressive, how he recognized his own craft. You can practically smell the heat mixing with charcoal and hot steel as it comes out of the kiln, and the characteristic yellow-red glow of a forge is hard to miss, especially when the bellows are going full throttle

You change perspective, so from 'he took a step etc etc.' You could practically smell. I'd personally put 'He could practically smell the heat mixing.etc etc.


Post 2
Arte, your writing is strong. The conversation between both characters and NPCs flowed really well here, it all seemed natural and it was nice to see that the NPCS didn't become irrelevant the second the two characters began to talk, they chimed in, they continued about their work and the reader got to see that.

Post 3
I feel like John would need more than two bar stools. 4 maybe...

I enjoyed reading his reaction to the taste of the stew, and his reminiscent memories.

The half-giant breathed in again, closing his eyes as he turned the aroma over in his mind. It was dark, even the smell of good reindeer stew was dark and heady, and the brawler lifted a spoon to his lips, taking a chunk of meat with it

You used dark as a descriptor here twice in rather quick succession, I'd change that up a bit in the future.

Post 4
A very nice post, I can't fault too much of it. The pacing of not only this post, but the entire thread thus far is pretty good, its not dragging nor am I feeling rushed. It's all flowing rather natural.

I really liked this imagery.

He laughed through his thick charcoal beard, speckled with grays and so dense that you couldn’t even tell when he spoke – only that his beard would wiggle and sound would come out.

The only thing I can fault in this, is the below section here, where it seems to switch to Johns perspective. When writing I can understand this happens from time to time, it happens in my own posts and I am trying to catch it more often. If you are writing from Artemis' point of view it should stay as such and not suddenly switch to what is clearly John's introspective thoughts.

John looked at Artemis, gauging what to say to man. He did not want to lie, but he also felt there were some things he could not share with anyone, no matter the relationship. He glanced down at his whiskey, swirling it before taking a large gulp.

Post 6
Woo backstory, I like hearing more about characters, now I know a little more about Johns.

I am not sure if this is more so to do with character, but it was only slightly jarring, where Arte asked the same question twice in a row, just worded differently. I fell the first question isn't needed as he elaborates on it the second time he asks. If that was intentional I'd make mention of it like "Artemis asked a second time," or something.

“What does this mean for me exactly?” Artemis asked. “How do their operations affect me? After all, John is just a friend, seeking help on a project.”

Post 8
I liked the humour in your post Fred <3

Post 9
Not much to say here other than I liked the pacing and flow of the work, because the post flowed so well, it felt like the work in the forge flowed equally as well.

Post 10
'Won't someone PLEASE think of the children?'
Seriously John, gonna take someones eye out.

Post 11
you have a few obvious typos. I noticed this in your other posts too. A quick read through would fix that.

How tall is Vincent? The ceiling is tall enough to accommodate John, and yet Vincent can easily reach up to the roof and pry something from it? I feel that he'd struggle with this considering how high the ceiling is, unless he was standing on a table or chair, but unless I missed it in my reading, that wasn't the case.

UMH WHOT

Vince turned and looked at Artemis, giving him a deadpan stare. “John is me, from the future.”

Post 13
Sudden information dump, some if it became hard to read, maybe break up the long winded talking with actions or something else?

Post 15
I feel like this is where the thread should have been split into two separate ones.

Post 17
Good imagery here and scene setting via use of an ability :P

Post 19
Again, I really like the use of your scenery and imagery, From now on, I'm going to stop making this point since it seems like I'm saying it often. Think of that as a all round feeling of the thread.

Post 20
Whilst a tiny bit predictable, the fight king starting a fight to get the information they need. I do like how it is used in this scene and in this sense.

Post 23
I really like the humanity given to the Sewer King, and how he wasn't just some grimy typical villain. He had his reasons, his actions were unjust, but he had been dealing with the situation and deck that had been dealt to him.


Post 24
Vince! You condescending asshat! This is why Amari doesn't like you!
Hah..




----------


final notes

The thread flowed really well in the beginning but when Vince came into it a LOT of information began to be dumped, about the Tarots past etc. I understand this is important for the story, but its very heavy on the reader. It slowed down the really nice flow of the pacing you had. I almost feel it'd work better as a separate thread.

Come Post 15 it feels like the whole original point of the first half of the thread is somewhat moot, I thought the thread was about fixing up and forging these great weapons, suddenly they're being sent on a quest? If I were actually scoring, I'd score low for this. The writing is good, and separately they're good but its hard to swallow in one large thread.

You all are very strong writers, and I can understand, to an extent, the reasoning behind making this one massive thread, but it definitely lost a lot of the appeal when it all suddenly shifted. If I were reading them separate, I'd be nowhere near as harsh as I am now.


You've essentially thrown in two plot points, and only rounded up the one. The whole initial 14 ish posts now seem completely irrelevant.



Overall: you all have strong storytelling, Redford you have slight inconsistencies with how your posts are laid out, but you have dramatically improved with your writing, and I can see that. Artemis, you have a really good way with settings and throwing in more humanity into your posts. Vince, it was a little hard to gauge you as you hadn't posted as much as the others, you had a few easily fixable spelling errors, but beyond that your character is very much what I expect of Vincent.

[Zook Murnig]

STORY 13/30

Storytelling 5/10
The story was a fairly simple one, possibly simpler than it should have been. I feel like part of the problem there was that this was an easy mission for characters as powerful as John and Artemis, and that it would have been more challenging, and therefore more interesting, for less powerful characters. Remember, this is a medium where you, the writers, set the difficulty for your characters. Challenge them, make them suffer and/or work for their goals, and throw obstacles in their path that aren't easily overcome by their innate talents.

That said, this was a decent read, if unsurprising.

Setting 4/10
There were relatively few times when the scenery was even described, and fewer times when it came into play beyond that. The door to the forge was shaped like a beer mug, but how does that work with a fixture that's supposed to not only move, but fit cleanly into a wall? Another doorway was later described as "seeming like a prison door." Was it? Or was it not? And what did it actually look like, that it seemed like a prison door? Show, don't tell. Work descriptions into your interactions, whether descriptions for your surroundings or for the characters, even your own.

I do have to give credit, however, to Redford for utilizing the setting of the fighting pit in post 20.

Pacing 4/10
This thread got a really slow start, but almost as soon as Vincent showed up it went into light speed. Don't drag out your openings for short threads like this, and, as I said above in Story, draw out the tension, and therefore the length, with better challenges for your characters. Additionally, try to avoid infodumps of exposition like post 12 and the rapid-fire discussion of Tarot history and the vagueries of which witch killed which.

CHARACTER 11/30

Communication 3/10
The dialogue often comes across as stilted, definitely not a natural speech pattern. The only really good advice I have for that is to go over lines of dialogue aloud when you're writing. Say it out loud, and if it feels awkward, change it until it doesn't.
On another note, your dialogue becomes confusing when you have three characters talking and no clear tagging of who is speaking at any given moment. On post 10, for example, I reread about three or four times trying to keep track of who was saying what, and finally gave up, hoping the next posts would clear things up. This also affected Clarity.

Action 4/10
As I'll say later on in this judgment, strong verbs will do a lot of good. For example, rather than "John took the two large steps required to cross the room" why not "John crossed the room in two long strides"? Less is more, and stronger verbs will lend better to the action of a narrative.

Persona 4/10
In some ways this is a pet peeve, but I feel it's worth mentioning specifically because the presence of this really illustrates some of my frustrations in this category: alignment. Specifically, that you write about definite alignments, and even reference definite "neutral" alignments. References to definite alignments are potentially alienating to the reader, who may either not know what they mean, or worse find the idea of them dubious, as I do. Characters, both main and side, are more interesting when they are nuanced, and definite and detectable alignments run the risk of removing that nuance. Personally, if you're going to make use of an alignment detection, I'd recommend a form that senses not the overall alignment of someone, but the blemishes and purifying light of selfish and selfless acts, respectively. Additionally, when talking of alignments, law/order and chaos/freedom usually get left out of the equation, but recognizing those differing ethical approaches to good and evil acts can improve on the realism of a character.

Ultimately, when dealing with alignment, it's helpful as a guiding tool to help understand in shorthand what side of a spectrum a character is on, but no matter what any number of Buzzfeed quizzes tell you, alignment does not accurately or adequately describe a well rounded character.

A side note that doesn't affect the scoring here, but it's worth noting: smithing as a profession is divided up into specializations. Most "smiths" didn't practice more than one or two of these specializations, and were referred to largely by their specialty. Armorers make armor and shields, weaponsmiths make weapons. Those are obvious. Goldsmiths and silversmiths work with, well, gold and silver, usually to make jewelry or candlesticks and similar precision artistry. Blacksmiths were the closest to being generalists, but only in that they made non-specialized products, such as wheels and axles, horseshoes, basic tools for other trades, and other simple items that basically just need a bare minimum of skill to produce workable results. When multiple smiths worked together in a forge, it was either to turn out more of one type of product (armor, weapons, or otherwise), or to be able to meet their customers' diverse needs by having specialists in multiple fields of smithing. I feel this is worth mentioning, especially in Persona, because there are multiple characters referred to as "smiths" in general terms, and Artemis seems to specifically identify as a "smith." What I've seen so far indicates he might be an armorer, but it might be worth looking into what kind of smith you want him to be, and perhaps Bazzak and the others in his forge might be from other specialties.

PROSE 13/30

Mechanics 5/10
Passive and active voice were switched between frequently. I mark this here as well as in Technique, because this is partly a factor of tenses. Passive voice, in particular, is denoted by a past perfect tense, I.E. "He would have done it" or "He had done it." Modifying an action verb with forms of either "will" or "has" puts a tense into its "perfect" form. These "perfect" tenses lend lesser weight to any actions or events described in them, as they can be interpreted as being a foregone conclusion or that the individuals involved have no agency in the events, among other reasons. Passive voice is, by and large, to be avoided. The best way to test for passive voice is to add the words "by zombies" after the action verb in a sentence. If the structure still makes sense, it's passive voice.

There are times when it seems like a sentence was rewritten halfway through, but the structure wasn't adjusted for the changes, making it technically understandable, but grammatically unsound and awkward to read. Rereading your work thoroughly and making edits will clear this up easily.

Clarity 4/10
There's not a lot of problems with this that can't be attributed to other categories, but there were moments when perspective seemed to shift within a post, probably moments where posts were collaborated, when it got really confusing.

Technique 4/10
See above about passive voice. Also, your style is fairly simple, which is not to say that it's bad. But it's lackluster, for lack of a better word. A simple style lends well to being understood, but it's boring and can feel like you're trudging through the narrative. Use stronger verbs, more descriptive adjectives and adverbs especially in interactions with characters, objects, and the setting, and a healthy dose of metaphor will bring a simple style to life and give texture to your narrative.

A note on repetitive phrasing: watch for repetitive phrasing. For example: "Bazzak clicked his tongue as he noted the man before him, the gargantuan man's head just inches below the ceiling of their establishment." This could be more concisely written as: "Bazzak clicked his tongue at the giant before him, whose head nearly grazed the shop's ceiling." It lends a sense of perspective, more efficiently delivers the information, and avoids the repetitive and mundane designation of "the man."

WILD CARD 5/10

FINAL 42/100

[Breaker]

Hey guys, I'm going to do a quick strengths/weaknesses list for each of you, hope you find it helpful.

redford

Strengths: -You use onomatopoeia well to incorporate realistic sounds into your prose. I encourage you to experiment more with other literary devices.
-Good use of clear descriptive language. I seldom get confused as to where John is or what's going on, which is important in any story.
-I like the way you express John's size through the things he does. Stooping to get in a door, being grateful for high ceilings, and slowing down for Artemis to catch up all come to mind.
-You used scents well to bring the setting to life, but used the word "smell" a little too often. Try varying it with words like scent, odor, etc.

Weaknesses: -The beginning was a little odd because of how little information you provided on the fight with Artemis. I had little context, for example, of where or how they fought, or why they suddenly seemed like buddies.
-Your clear, direct style often leads to telling rather than showing. An example from post one is "Apparently it was a few blocks over." This is one among many missed opportunities to further illustrate the setting.
-Be careful of using Earth-based idioms such as "full throttle". I imagine a smith like John might instead say something like "full blaze".

SirArtemis

Strengths: -Your descriptions of the setting overall were pretty good. I liked the way you compared Ettermire to the inside of a giant workshop (or something like that) in post 17
-You had some really strong imagery, however it was interspersed by unnecessary weaker metaphors. Try being more choosy with which literary devices make it past the final cut. For example "the whip of Salvar air" in post 2 was fairly strong, but then "like paint on a canvas" shortly afterward felt generic and not necessarily appropriate to the context.
-Good incorporation of Artemis' skills into the prose. Even small things like the way he watched the crowd told something about the kind of person he is.

Weaknesses:- Like redford, you could have done a lot more to provide background on Artemis and John's first meeting. I would have liked a better explanation of why Artemis was so ready to help someone he previously fought, perhaps in the form of a bit of internal dialogue.
- On several occasions you had unnecessary word repetitions, such as repeating "man" twice in the first sentence of post 2. Any time you run into this in editing, try replacing one of the words with a synonym or re-writing if necessary. Running into the same word twice without it being in some sort of intentional pattern can be jarring and reminds me that I'm reading a story.
- Avoid cliche lines such as "talk is cheap" in post 2
- Careful when using specialized dialogue. I noticed you switch between "you" and "ye" with Nalin
- Try reading your posts back to yourself out loud to avoid run on sentences. Anytime you run out of breath, it may be time to add a period.

Cards of Fate

Strengths: - You do a good job of expressing the type of person Vince is through dialogue and actions.
-I liked how you found a balance between brevity and description; I generally at least knew what the setting around Vince looked like, without getting bogged down in it.
-You did a good job of playing the cast of characters that you're familiar with, including bunnying John

Weaknesses: - I'd encourage you to experiment with different methods of expressing telepathy. Using <.> and referring to it as an "imaginary call" is not very immersive
- Don't forget to show as often as you tell. For example, a little more information about what Vince's portals look like (beyond a color) would be interesting.
- Careful with overly long monologues. Although they are in character for Vince, they can drag at times.
- Careful bunnying characters you are less familiar with. Your portrayal of Artemis did not seem especially Artemis-y at times. Don't be afraid to ask others for help when writing their character.

Overall Notes

This was a solid, if basic story, and fairly well executed by all of you. I don't think it represents any of your best efforts, but it seemed more like an "enjoying the process" thread than a "for the readers" thread, and that's fine.

[Breaker]

This workshop is now closed. NOTE TO STAFF: I participated in this workshop so someone else will need to assign rewards.

[Rayleigh]

Workshop - When Fates Cross Paths

JDD receives 720 EXP, 50 GP, 2 AP.
Eteri receives 240 EXP, 50 GP, 2 AP.
Zook receives 600 EXP, 50 GP, 4 AP.
Breaker receives 2,280 EXP, 50 GP, 3 AP.

[Rayleigh]

All rewards added on 4.0!