I'm not trying to argue semantics that far. I'm certain there are atheists who believe that god doesn't exist, but the very fact that the actual word, when broken down, has an entirely different meaning should be changed. Or, in the very least, have a second definition added; they do that, too.
Originally Posted by Max Dirks
Haha. Well... that's a matter of opinion. I'm not atheistic at all. Though I'm in no way a believer in god either. I tend to just stay pure agnostic, I study religion and philosophy in order to attempt to understand or figure out which one is the way I should be swayed. Since I have yet found a way to prove that god is real or isn't I'm still in the middle studying. If I can ask a question about whether my belief is true, then I don't really believe it. Any questions that can be poked into my mindset are those that make me continue to remain agnostic.
I'd like to believe that there isn't a god, because I don't like having the idea of someone else running my life. Then again, I would love to believe in a god because that would mean that I would have someone to believe in that is beyond myself and something that is much stronger and much bigger than me that I could rely on.
Being agnostic, I believe in myself. Just me. That's the middle ground.
What he said.
"Some things they never tell you
While you're riding the assembly line
Like who'll be the hands to hold you
And what's their state of mind?
Well, hell I'm not much bigger
Than a pointed index finger
But who am I to lay the blame?
I'm only here to cause some pain."~The Autobiography of a Pistol, by Ellis Paul
Huh. Interesting.
I'm trying to fit together a precise understanding of your viewpoint, Shadowed. So, supposing an "athiest" answered the question:
Q: Does Got exist?
A: No.
Does this person believe that God does not exist, or just not believe that God exists?
The distinction (if I understand you correctly) kinda sounds like agnosticism. "Believing that God does not exist" suggests that your experience/evidence has convinced you that there is no God. Whereas "Not believing that God exists" suggests that your experience/evidence has not been sufficient to convince you that he does. So, your style of atheist would answer:
Q: Does God exist?
A: I don't have enough evidence to say, one way or another. For that reason, I currently don't believe so.
...mreh?
When the night is at its darkest, look upon the eastern sky. The Light is on its way. ((ToC Profile))
I don't want to pull the incredibly juvenile, "I teach the LSAT and did way better on it than you" routine, but...
As someone who teaches the LSAT and did way better on it than you, I can say that the correct answer is actually false; not all agnostics are atheists.
As you identified earlier, atheism is the inverse of theism. Similarly, agnosticism is the inverse of gnosticism. While the former refers to the belief in a god/gods, the latter refers to your knowledge about your conclusion. You can be an agnostic theist or a gnostic atheist (meaning unsure but believing, and sure in non-belief respectively). Agnosticism is a subset of atheism like apples are a subset of oranges.
See also: nifty chart.
Serilliant, if you're unwilling to commit to something (a non-religious definition of agnostic), then it can be said that you didn't commit to something. For example, if I'm unwilling to commit to judging a thread, then I certainly didn't commit to judging the thread. In the context of religion, if you're unwilling to commit to a belief that god exists, then can't it be said that you didn't commit to the belief that god exists? Then, if you don't commit to the belief that god exists, doesn't that make you an atheist per the Webster definition (one without a belief in a god)?
I think so. Take your LSAT score and stuff it.
Althanas Operations Administrator
Dirks GP amount: 2949
Belief and knowledge are different things.
Thank goodness Serilliant posted that response and saved me from having to trudge through this topic.
We talkin bout practice
Not a game, not a game, not a game
We talkin bout practice
Maybe you should have.
The context of the thread is that Shadowed dislikes it when people call him an atheist based on his specific views of religion (i.e. nihilism). This is due to changing/muddled meanings of the words, usually brought about by opposing viewpoint. He thinks it feigns ignorance when he's called atheist. While, I agree with him about the words changing, I also think that he shouldn't mind it because the plain meaning of the words indicates that all pure* agnostics and nihilists cannot be anything but atheists (even though those people might have meant something different when they said it).
*I added the pure caveat for Serilliant (at the zero point). If you can't believe because you can't know, then you don't believe, but if you believe you can't know, then you can still believe (which is what that chart is for). Notice the positioning of the word "can't." I'm referring to the former in my discussion, Serilliant to the latter. Our different views simply reflect the changing definitions of the words that Shadowed noted.
(Yes, I realize all my argument sounds just as clever as a retort like "Of course I'm happy" to the comment "You're gay," but it was a fun intellectual journey. I fucking hate philosophy)
Althanas Operations Administrator
Dirks GP amount: 2949
No, I'm fairly confident I made the right choice. I can't be certain, but I believe I did. Just like my views on god(s). I'm fairly confident there are none. I don't claim actual knowledge or certainty, but if I required that of all my beliefs, I'd never believe anything.
Last edited by Visla Eraclaire; 04-21-09 at 05:16 PM.
We talkin bout practice
Not a game, not a game, not a game
We talkin bout practice
Erm, Max, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the definition of atheist used to describe me is the wrong definition. Me being a nihilist has nothing to do with it, since I'm also an atheist under the proper definition. All I'm saying is, atheism is a lack of belief, not a belief of lack. That's it.
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